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A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

haue beene greatly disquieted and the good course of religion hath beene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates If any shall aske mee what the true causes are why so many vnfitte men are the Churches Ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and do grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will bee healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key 9. THE GODLY ARE not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister THE Sacramentes are Gods ordinance the Ministers ignorance cannot peruert the nature of Gods ordinance A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs We are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6. verse 4. The cuppe of blessing which we blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11. verse 16. The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the Passeouer Luk. 2. vers 41. their going to Ierusalem was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the sacrifices There were at that time in Salomons Temple manifold corruptions the high Priesthood was solde for money many of the Iewish Priests were ignorant yet Ioseph the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2. vers 41. The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the Minister doth not defile the Communicāt Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laeditur pia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of an other either Pastor or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosumerit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cresc gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is he which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it will be hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doeth sanctifie him which receiueth it well Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priestes and Apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the worse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist Touching this point of the Sacrament I rest wholy in Augustines iudgement his wordes are these Ego dieo meliùs per bonū ministrū quàm per malū dispensari sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vteis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus congruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo faciliùs imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens ad societatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetur alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctum esse Sacramentum Christi etiamsi per minùs sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acceperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 20. The summe of Augustines wordes is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad Minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by what minister so euer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske mee whether it be lawful to omit the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infants to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and Gouernours of our Churches c. Obiection By whome a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to bee receiued but ignorant ministers ought not to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. Answere The Maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the worde of God but wee ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it Obiection They of whose ministerie there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accompted ministers therefore not to bee communicated with I. Penry pag. 43 44. Answere I denie your Antecedent My reasons are First there was a Nullitie before God of Caiphas Priesthoode for hee entred by money and the Priesthood was deuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Mat. 26. Ioh. 18. Secondly there was a Nullitie before God of the ministerie of some in Philippos which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Pauls bandes Philip. Chap. 1. verse 15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle vers 15 18. If any shall deny that there was a Nullitie before God of their ministerie I prooue it thus They had not an inward calling M. Penry saith that an inward calling is contained in the

reason from the outward calling of readers I referre to your next chapter where they are repeated thither nowe I am come where the contradictory of the question shal be set downe and proued briefely because the nullitie of the vnpreaching ministery may be in steade of a thousand reasons to proue the same R. Some My obiections are seuerall whatsoeuer you say Any one that hath but halfe an eye may easily see it by my seuerall answeres I haue set downe the obiections as they were deliuered to me The confutation of my answeres if it be any is foorth comming you say in an other place I haue sought for it but I cannot finde it It is shrunke I feare in the wetting R. Some If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and Sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant ministers or the pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant ministers for in stead of diuiding the word of trueth aright they speake at all aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this land haue bene greatly disquieted and the good course of religiō hath bene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates I. Penry I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer head they care not what against whome your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absucde doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the Pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there coulde be a fourth added vnto them confisteth the woe of our Church R. Some Is my complaint iust against vnskilful preachers Doe you M. Penry wipe them out of the rolle of ministers Will you shut the pulpit doore against them Take heede what you doe You bidde your selfe losse Your kingdome will then fall to the ground for vnskilfull preachers are your Bulwarks and Blockhouses to support your fancies The absurde Doctors you mention shall haue no defence of mee If they preach as you write for that duetie and loue I owe and beare to the Church and Vniuersities I woulde both they you were disgraded and they kept out of the Pulpit and your writings out of the Presse I hope some good will growe by your writings First that the Vniuersities will take better heed vpon vvhom they bestow their degrees Secondly that the Magistrates vvill looke better to the Printing houses By the fourth sort of supposed Ministers vvhich you vvrite of I knovve not vvhom you meane I could ghesse shrevvdly but I vvil not because I vvill not misconstrue you If they or any other be the murraine of our Church I vvoulde they vvere either reformed or remooued R. Some If any shall aske me what the true causes are why so many vnfit men are the Churches ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and doe grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will be healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 9. THE GODLY ARE NOT polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the hands of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry BY pollution I doubt not you meane sinne R. Some I doe so R. Some The Sacraments are Gods ordinance the ministers ignorance can not peruert the nature of Gods ordinance I. Penry The Ministers ignorance say you page 28. cannot peruert Gods ordinance and againe page 29. the Sacraments are not the worse for the ignorance of the minister c. All this I graunt but bare readers are not ministers and the doubt is whether the action performed by them be the ordinance of God whether it bee a Sacrament These be the questions which you ought to haue proued and not haue taken them as principles though you doe this the third and fourth time R. Some Your writings are like the winde not long in one corner Before you denied it not to be a Sacrament which was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers here you doubt of it You erred either then or now Were he not a wise man that would followe your humour The rocke he should builde on should be nothing but sand his building should be as the wall in Ezechiel dawbed with vntempered morter If vnpreaching ministers haue administred a Sacrament in your iudgement I am sure you cannot deny them to haue a calling for you will not accompt it a Sacrament which is deliuered by priuate men But let vs see what you write in an other place of this argument I. Penry If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a Sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a Sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any Christian to goe vnto an vnpreaching minister for the Sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sinne then the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the Sacraments R. Some If vnpreaching ministers were no ministers as you affirme and I denie then I would confesse that a Sacrament might as easily be had of them as water of a drie ditch But what if some did minister the Sacrament in the Apostles times which were not preachers very famous men are of that iudgement Caluine vpon these wordes of the Apostle Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1. Cor. 1.17 writeth thus There were fewe to whom the office of preaching was committed but the administration of Baptisme was committed to many Martyr writeth thus vpon the same place of the Apostle Munus tingendi c. that is the administration of Baptisme may bee committed to euery one in the Church but not the office of preaching Chrisostome vpon that place of S. Paul hath these vvordes Euangelizare perpaucorum est c. that is fewe are able to preach but euery one may baptize that hath a calling Of this iudgement are Ambrose Hemingius c. Augustine hath these wordes Perfectè baptizare minùs docti

euery one of your reasons bee answered A peremptorie resolution They are pinned be like on your sleeue I hope wee shall not haue a Pythagoras of you Woulde you haue your boisterous speech go for an Oracle and cary all as a violent streame before it God forbid It were a hard case I trust you desire it not If you doe you are not like to haue it I. Penry In this point there is also another want which I would had beene redressed And that is of two sortes First a manifest going from the controuersie for the question being whether ignorant men not ordeyned of God for the gathering together of the Saintes bee ministers or no you leaue that and proue the Sacraments administred by them viz. by popish priests our dumbe ministers in the dayes of blindnes and ignorance to be sacraments which is no part of the matter in controuersie but an other point to be discussed if men will be gotten at all to enter thereunto when the former is determined and decided R. Some Your speeches are very idle I swarue not one iot from the cause I dealt in For proofe of this consider what I write Certaine in London gaue out in my hearing first that such as were baptized by Popish Priests in the Popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in our Church receiued no baptisme Secondly that the Godly were polluted which receyued any Sacrament at the hands of vnpreaching ministers To heale these sores I was desired to prouide a plaister I did so and God hath giuen a good blessing vnto it All this time your booke was as great a stranger to me as it is nowe to the Duke of Medina What say you M. Penry Haue I faulted as you imagine Had you any the least cause so roughly to seaze vpon me and to charge me with going from the point Bee iudge your selfe yea I refuse not the iudgement of your disciples if they haue any dramme of equitie in them I. Penry Secondly your reasons are so fewe and so commonly knowen vnto al that for their number a small deale of paper might conteyne an answere vnto them for their noueltie they could not put a man that had according vnto knowledge but once allowed of the cause to any great labour in answering them As being things so commonly obiected by al learned or vnlearned that hold our readers to be ministers and thinke it lawfull to communicate with them as by course of speech they fall vnto that discourse where all men may easily see that there was a great ouersight committed by M Some in deeming that the oppugning of a cause countenanced by most of the Godly learned would bee taken in hand by any who could not answere the reasons which he might be sure would be obiected by all And who could bee ignorant that the odious controuersie concerning the profanation of baptisme both by Popish Priestes and our dumbe Ministers would offer it selfe in the forefront to withstande the trueth that the ciuill Magistracie the ministerie of the dumbe Leuites the corrupt outwarde calling of our readers woulde require an answere which are the reasons and the onely reasons vsed by you R. Some If my arguments be fewe I haue done you pleasure for they are sooner answered They haue you say no noueltie I like them the better for they are as I desired If they bee not for your diet I doe not passe my thought is taken If nothing were good or bad but that which you like or mislike precious pearles should go for tile sherdes and pebble stones for Diamonds Tichonius a Donatist said of himselfe and his fellowes Quod volumus sanctum est Your musicke I hope is not like his If it bee you are too imperiall You will not be abidden What and how weake my reasons are must bee decided hereafter for your wordes are no arguments If my reasons were sutable to your answeres they were very wofull Your odious speech that I withstand the trueth is vsed often it is a speciall flowre in your booke This course hurts you and not me It hurts you for it bewrayes your humour It hurts not me for your tongue cannot disgrace me I. Penry The last want I finde in you is conteyned in the insufficiencie of your reasons which euidently shewe the insufficiencie of the conclusion that would be inferred by them Your reasons are all of them faultie either because they desire that for graunted which is the question or make those things of like nature wherein there is a great dissimilitude From the first of the two faults it commeth to passe that you take for graunted that the writings of reuerend and godly men as of Augustine M. Beza c. will proue that which the worde of the eternall God doth not warrant Hence you take it granted that Popish Priests were ministers that the outward approbation of the Church maketh a Minister that whensoeuer the word of institution is pronounced with the outwarde element there must presently be a Sacrament that I take an euill Minister for no Minister that there was a nullitie both of Caiphas ministerie because he came in by briberie and of the litigious Ministers in the Church of Philippi c. Howsoeuer you take those things as graunted principles yet they are the poynts in controuersie and so farre from being yeelded vnto by me that I haue shewed euery one of them to be manifestly false R. Some You finde many faults You are a hard man you couer none Moates with you are beames and molhils mountaines yea no moates and no molhils are beames and mountaines if they appeare at your barre It pleaseth you to giue out that all my reasons are faultie If you meane in your eye I doe easily graūt it If you meane in the eye of the learned you mistake the matter But what are the faultes which you pursue so hotly Forsooth I take that you say for graunted which is the question viz. that Popish priests were ministers that whensoeuer the word of institution is added to the element there is a Sacrament and that such a thing is thus and so because Augustine and Beza write so Your tongue is no slander Did I euer say or write that Popish priestes had a lawfull calling I haue written I confesse that Popish priests haue a calling though a faultie one Of this iudgemēt are Beza Caluin the reformed Churches But all these are wide of the Butte onely you do hit the white you wil teach them Sus Mineruam It becōmeth not the house Did I euer say or write that whensoeuer the worde of Institution is added to the elemēt there must presently be a Sacrament There is no sillable in my treatise that lookes that way You imagine I say so and of this absurd conceite you conclude that priuate men children women idiots in my iudgemēt may administer a Sacramēt You pretend great sinceritie but your dealing with me in this and some other points is neither honest nor scholerlike It

mysterie frō common banquets lest it should be mingled with them The same M. Caluine a litle after hath these words Coeterum diligenter cauendum esse fateor ne qua obrepat superstitio ne spes salutis externo Symbolo affigatur c. That is diligent care must be had that no superstition creepe in and that no hope of saluation be tied to the externall signe c. Epist. 363. Of this iudgement is Peter Martyr in his Commentarie vpon the 10. chap. ad Cor. Fol. 143. Chemnicius writeth that it is an absurde thing to tie the holy Supper to peculiar places Ad substantiam Sacramenti sicut non pertinet circumstantia temporis ita nec circumstantia loci tanquā necessaria requiritur Chemn in 2. parte exam con Trid. That is as the circumstance of the time is not necessarily required to the substance of a Sacrament so neither the circumstance of place I rest in the iudgement of these excellent men If you dissent from mee I pray you condemne these learned writers but not before you haue confuted their reasons CHAP. 16. I. Penry THus M. Some I haue runne therowe those pointes in your booke that concerned me I haue bene driuen to deale brieflyer therin then I had determined But I am enforced to ende to omit that which page 9. I promised to handle in the latter ende with diuers other things I haue not the like libertie for Printing that you M. Some doe enioy Procure me but the fauour to be iudicially heard according to the word and I will personally vpon the perill of my life by the Lords assistance defend these two points against all gainesayers I am sory that you whom I reuerence should be the instrument to oppugne a trueth The Lorde respect the cause of his owne glory and pardon our sinne Amen R. Some You haue runne your selfe out of breath You had dealt more wisely if you had gone with lesse haste and better speede Sat citò si sat bene The breuitie which you giue out you are driuen to is dignum patella operculum a fit garment to couer your absurde writings You haue not you say such libertie of printing as I. No reason you should You broche and print grosse errours and Anabaptistical fancies so do not I. You refuse to offer submit your writings to the view and allowance of the Magistrates so do not I. You would haue me procure you Iudicial hearing c. Your request is not equall Nec te noui nec vbi sis Speake for your selfe in Gods Name so will I if you will reuoke your errours and heresies Otherwise I will not open my lippe for you or any such as you are After leaue obteined you will appeare you say though it cost you your life and deale in Argument c. Oh noble Goliath Doe you challenge all gainesayers so did the Donatists in Augustines time Aug. contra Don. post Coll. so did Photinus a grosse heretike in Basils time Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 6. so did Popish Campian in our time Alas good M. Penry you are vtterly vnfit for such a match This heate of yours is like a blaze of thornes It will last but a while Your cause is naught your armour is not of proofe Your Diuinitie is at a low ebbe Your Arguments are pitifull your answeres are silly There is no hope of preuailing The Donatists Photinus and Campian presumed of a glorious victorie but they were learnedly confuted The Donatists by Augustine Photinus by Basill of Ancyra Campian by some of our learned men Besides their garland was poena perfidiae non corona fidei I would be sory your garland shoulde be of such floures The best conquest that you can haue is to ouercome your pride by humilitie and your ignorance by godly studie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eurip. in Hippol. Excellēt men haue their second thoughts wiser then their first Non vincimur quum meliora nobis offerūtur sed instruimur Cipr. ad Qu. fratrem It is no disgrace to yeeld to better things You are sory that I whom you reuerence should be an instrument to oppugne a trueth Be sory for your selfe Detest your fancies Your reuerēce I make very meane accompt of You are the first that euer charged me in writing to oppugne Gods trueth I am very farre I thanke God from that great sinne Gods trueth I trust is as deare to me as to you I hope it hath had and shall haue more defence by me then by you there is some reason it should You misliked my last Treatise if this booke finde the like grace at your hands I must and will beare it To your prayer that the Lord would respect the cause of his owne glory and pardon our sinnes I say withall my heart Amen I haue now thanks be to God passed thorow your booke I haue not runne but walked a foote pace thorowe it Your absurdities I confesse are brambles but they haue not pricked me I would some others tooke no more hurt by them If my Treatise shall doe either you or any of your followers good I will be glad If not I say with the holy Apostle If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant 1. Cor. 14.38 Non habet Dei charitatem qui Ecclesiae non diligit vnitatem Aug. de baptis contra Don. lib. 3. cap. 16. CHAP. 17. IT hath pleased M. Penry to take some paines in prouing that Popish Priestes are no lawfull and good ministers of God that is that they haue no lawfull calling In this hee fighteth with his shadow for he hath not any of the religion his aduersarie I mislike the Popish priesthoode and sacrifice as much as he and if occasion require vvill set dovvne sure reasons to shake them both in pieces That vvhich I holde in this controuersie is that Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one If M. Penry wil improue that he must take penne in hand and begin a fresh for as yet he hath not encountred with that particuler If he can preuaile in that the famous writings of Caluine Beza c. and the resolution of all the reformed Churches in which I rest for this point shal be condemned and M. Penry shall haue the garland Because I purpose to passe so briefly as I can thorow his Treatise of the Popish priests I will handle first certaine propositions which are incident to that discourse The Popish Church is a Church though not a sound Church 1. The Pope is Antichrist therefore the Church of Rome is a Church No Protestant doubteth of the antecedent c. I proue my argument thus Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God 2. Thess 2.4 Per Templum Dei Ecclesia per sessionem regnum intelligitur Musc 2. Thess 2.4 that is by the Temple of God the Church by sitting a kingdome is vnderstanded Viretus a man of excellent learning writeth thus of the popish Church Non dum eò vsque degenerauit prolapsa est

substaunce of baptisme out of the Church and that by those that are without the Church for then a sacrament might be had out of the Church which were very impious and absurd to be affirmed But popery is out of the Church and so are all popish priests Therfore no man can assure himselfe to haue the substance of baptisme in poperie by any popish priest R. Some Before that I deny any part of your reason I must tell you that I haue proued alreadie that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church Ciprian thought otherwise and therefore would haue such as were baptized by excōmunicated hereticks to be rebaptized But he was and is condemned for that errour by ancient later writers You giue out very peremptorily that it is very impious and absurde to affirme that baptisme either hath bene or may be out of the Church So did the Donatists in Augustines time It is no great matter what you say Your bolt is soone shot Your water is very shallow Many points vvhich you condemne in your Consistorie for grosse absurdities are manifest trueths in the sound iudgement of all reformed Churches So is this present particuler Touching your argument I denie your Minor My reason is the Popish church is a church though an vnsound Church and Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one For proofe of this I referre you to that vvhich I haue vvritten before in this Treatise If you like not my reasons confute them I. Penry That there is no Church at all in poperie and that all popish priests are out of the Church besides the former reasons this one doth further shew If there be a Church in poperie or if all popish priests bee not out of the Church then those magistrates that haue separated themselues and their subiects and all others that made this separation from the Romish religion as from that synagogue where saluation is not to be had and consequently where there is no Church are schismatikes to speake the least Because it is a schisme to make this separation from the Church detest the corruptions thereof we may but make such a separation from the Church we ought not vnlesse we would be accounted schismatiks But those Magistrates and their people that made this separation are not schismatickes because in Poperie the foundation is ouerthrowen You say in your booke M. Some page 33. that you could presse the Argument of the Magistracie against me very farre Whether you may or no that shal be cōsidered when I deale with the point but this I am assured of that in this point you shall be driuen either to defend the absurditie that baptisme is to be had out of the Church in a companie estranged from Christ which I thinke you will not do or vrged so farre as to the plaine breach of a Statute which farre be it from me euen in the cause of treason Will ye say that baptisme may be had out of the Church the assertion is absurd Or will you hold that there is a Church in Poperie the assertion is dangerous and I haue prooued it false It is dangerous because it affirmeth our Magistrates to be schismatiks inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church I hope rather then you will fall into either of these points that you will graunt me the cause R. Some I will answere your seuerall pointes very briefly The reason which you vse to prooue there is no Church at all in popery is this viz. If there bee a Church at al in popery the Magistrates and people which are of the religion are schismaticks at the least My answere is that this is a popish argument I haue answered it before and doe rest in that answere If either you or any of the popish sort mislike my answere you may confute it Besides if there be no Church at all in popery as you affirme why should the Churches of England Germany Dēmarke which were sometimes popish be called reformed Churches The very name of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the Churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popish and vnsound were Churches in some sort before the reformation If you thinke that all the popish sorte which died in the popish Church ore damned you thinke absurdly for you dissent from the iudgement of all the learned protestants and doe presume to sit in Gods chaire which is intollerable sawcinesse To say or write that true baptisme hath beene and may bee out of the Church is a true proposition in diuinitie Augustine did maintaine it against the Donatists The most famous mē Churches in our time are of that iudgement I rest in that with all my heart You account it an absurde proposition The best is you are not master of the sentences as Peter Lumbard was If you were which God defend the sounde diuinity which is taught in Cambridge and Oxford should bee cryed downe and your strange fancies should be ruled cases The argument of the magistracy is touched before I perceiue it hath mooued you a litle for you drawe out a statute of Treasō c. What I beseech you good Sir No lesse then Treason you are a charitable man I haue do and will perfourme all dutie by Gods grace to the religion and my gracious Prince so long as I liue therefore treason statutes can take no hold of mee Yea the refutation of your blasphemous Anabaptisticall popish and proude errours by me is I am sure a performance of a speciall duetie to Almightie God my Prince and this Church And I doubt not but that blessing which God hath giuen already to my last treatise and which his Maiestie will giue to this will marre your market Great wordes shal not fray me c. If your ignorāt disciples wil stil magnifie you it shal not be strāge to me they do but their kind Such as bee learned wise haue do find you out Cognoscitur quis sit vt vt laudetur Coruus The most famous orators that euer were in Rome and Athens could not make the rauen to be no rauen Tertullus commended Felix Act. 24. but Felix was an absurde body and stripped of his office by Claudius Caesar The Samaritans commended Simon Magus Act. 8 Libanius the Sophister commended Iulian the Apostate Socr. lib. 3. cap. 22. Eunomius cōmended Aetius which was a pestilent heretike Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 29. You haue protested many times in your treatise that you reuerence me but here you offer me this choise either to defende that which is in your iudgemēt an absurditie but in deede is none or to incurre the danger of treason c. Doe you thinke that I haue any the least cause to beleeue your glorious protestations Ioab pretended extraordinarie good will to Abner and Amasa but he killed them 2. Sam. 3. and 20. chap. Ismael pretended extraordinarie good wil to them of Sichem Silo Samaria the beast shedde teares but they were Crocodiles teares for