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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85856	Hinc illæ lachrymæ. Or the impietie of impunitie. Containing a short, serious and most certain demonstration of the main (if not, only) rise and originall of all the grand grievances, and obstructions of piety and justice, over the whole kingdome. Together with a soveraign salve, and precious plaisture, for the unquestionable cure thereof (by Gods blessing) if it be seriously and seasonably applyed, according to direction herein, humbly prescribed. / By a faithful friend to the truth and a most humble servant to all the loyall and religious Presbyterian Members of Parliament.	Gauden, John, 1605-1662.	1647 (1647)	Wing G358; Thomason E421_6; Thomason E540_16; ESTC R204669	24,859	31

and Independents every where are most deeply dyed even in grain with this foule and faulty spot which is not the spot of Gods Children but Deut. 32.5 of a perverse and crooked generation let these following testimonies fallen out besides their manifold former Calumnies and Slanders by them cast upon the pious Presbyterian Church-Government and upon the Reverend and pious Pastours and faithfull friends and furtherers of it published in their most wicked printed Pamphlets and recited by Reverend and religious Mr Edwards in the third part of his Gangrana p. 200 201 202 203 c. and whereof I my selfe together with many other religious and substantiall Citizens of London were eye and eare witnesses at Westminster be sufficient to demonstrate and make evident to any impartial and unprejudiced Christian or that is not wickedly obstinate and wilfully incredulous which were as follow I being on Tuesday Februarie 2. 1646. and on the Thursday following Febr. 5th in the afternoon at the Committe for Complaints to heare the examination of one Kiffin a Glover a sly and sottish Mechanicall preaching Anabaptist and one Mr. Knowles another of his Anabaptisticall brethren which last had cast off his former regular Ordination in the Church of England as being sinfull forsooth as himselfe then confest and had a pretended Ordination from a true reformed-Church as he falsly termed it in a private House by a company of Sectaries there disorderly assembled Together also with one Gorton another Non-sense Anabaptisticall Preacher forsooth and a most notorious base fellow and audacious Malefactor in New-England who had there been fetter'd in Irons and whipt and was like to have been hang'd for his most impious and audacious blasphemies and misdemeanours upon occasion of the mentioning whereof in that Court I heard an eminent Independent Gentl. of that Committee say openly in the face of the Court I sayes hee ye may see how they begin already what think ye will they not do hereafter if they get power and may be suffered And with the said Gorton was then also examined one Patience a Botcher or Tayler ordained also forsooth to bee a Preacher in a true reformed-Church as he also falfly and foolishly termed it in a House in Bell-Alley in Colleman-Street by the Saints forsooth of that Church Men and Women Hee-Saints and Shee-Saints and all of them it seemes Church-Officers with them upon tryall of his gifts by these Saints as thus he also himselfe confest At the hearing of whom examined my heart was at the first affected with no little joy and comfort to heare and observe even all along the Christian Courage and godly Zeal of that ancient and pious Patriot Sir Robert Harlow religious and renowned Major Generall Massey Colonell Hollys Mr. Tate Mr. Baynton and some other worthy Presbeterian Members of the House then present at this Committee as formerly at another sitting I observed the singular zeale of my most highly honoured good friend Mr. Grimstone much honoured Colon. Harvy and others both in their frequently and fervently speaking and pleading for the Cause of God then in agitation before them But when I on the other side saw and observed in this Committee very many known and professed Independents to sit as Iudges there and too frequently and fiercely me thought to act and plead for yea and to put words into the mouths of those Delinquent Sectaries and though all of them were I say known adversaries to our pious Presbyterian Church-Government intended as we stedfastly hope by the better-part of the honourable Parliament yet these I say to sit as Iudges there and to speake such encouraging words and that in open Court to the Delinquents and then also to have power to Vote on their behalfes and contrawise also to observe and heare them use such discouraging carriages and dishearting expressions to the honest and pious Covenant-engaged and Ordinance animated Prosecutors of the Offenders This made me fetch a deep Sigh indeed as being much amazed at it and I must confesse my heart was very much daunted and damped with griefe to see and observe such a most unequall and palpably injurious mismanaging of so great and godly a work as we hoped and expected this would and should have been unto us And it was indeed unto me a wonderfull and strange Paradox of Prudence and Iustice as I humbly conceive that the apparent and profest enemies of the Presbyterian-Cause and Reformation should thus sit as Judges and Parties to affront us and frown upon us for our loyall religious and just actings against such crafty and accursed adversaries of the Truth Which made me begin seriously to consider with my self how improbable if not almost impossible it was for us in such a case and condition of times and things ever to expect a full and free course or current of justice against them And hereupon indeed my sad thoughts began to reflect backward and to think upon the by-past-times of the tyrannicall Prelates when pious and peaceable Professours were under the names and notions of factious and Scismaticall cited in their High-Commission-Courts and there judged by those known enemies of their causes where indeed I confesse they were all profest adversaries but here our truly seditious and Schismaticall Delinquents and the honest prosecutors of them also find an unhappy mixture of Foes with Friends whereby though the pious Professors themselves could there find indeed neither expect any justice yet the wicked Apparators and Persecutors of those true Saints and Servants of the Lord were countenanced and encouraged by those their Prelaticall Masters yea and liberally rewarded by them But here in this Committee for Complaints where the cause being far otherwise the case is also in some sense clean contrary and if I may be humbly bold to speak plain English in some respects with us much worse and more unjust when the most pernicious and audacious Schismaticall offenders are familiarly much countenanced and encouraged and the honest and Covenant-Conscientious Prosecutors of them are disgraced flouted frown'd upon yea and imprisoned for their pious pains and religious actings for God and his most righteous Cause whereby I say our Case is thus like to be far worse than that of the Prelates dayes comparatis comparandis and our grievances yea I say our Soul grievances so far we fear from being redressed that they are like to be much more encreased if this most unjust course of judicature should which God forbid be continued and that Sectaries be thus suffered both in Parliament and country-Committees to sit as uncontroleable Iudges who are so far from either doing or suffering justice to be done upon the most seditious and factious disturbers of our pious Peace and unquestionable Truths of God and of all godly ecclesiasticall and civill Order that they both countenace at least as much as in their power and policy consists and truly that 's not little now adayes and very greatly encourage them in their unsufferable Schismaticall impundencies and blasphemous

renew as I may say revow and publish to the whole world to Gods high honour and our unexpressible comfort their cordiall and zealous detestation of Heresies Schismes and Blasphemous Opinions together with their religious resolution peremptorily to proceed agaidst them and for fuller satisfaction herein I will give the Reader their one words in that most excellent Ordinance of theirs worthy to be ingraven by us in fair Characters of Gold which were as followeth Die Jovis Febr. 4 1646. An Ordinance of the Lords and Commons in Parliament assombled concerning the growth and spreading of Errours Heresies and Blasphemies setting apart a day of publik Humiliation to seeke Gods assistance for the suppressing and preventing the same THE Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England having entred into a solemn-Covenant to endeavour sincerely really and constantly the Reformation of Religion in Doctrine Discipline and Worship and the extirpation of Popery Superstition Heresie Schisme Prophanenesse and whatsoever shall bee found contrary to sound Doctrin and the power of godlynesse and having found the presence of GOD wonderfully assisting us in this cause especially since our engagement in pursuance of the said Covenant Have thought it fit least we partake in other mens sins and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues to set forth this our deep sense of the great dishonour of God and perillous condition that this kingdom is in through the abominable blasphemies mark their zealous expressions here and damnable Heresies vented and spread abroad therein tending to the subverssion of the faith contempt of the Ministery and Ordinances of Jesus Christ And as we are resolved to imploy and improve the utmost of our power that nothing be said or done against the Truth but for the Truth so wee desire that both our selves and the whole kingdome may bee deeply humbled before the Lord for that great reproach and contempt which hath been cast upon his Name and saving Truths and for that swift destruction which we may justly feare will fall upon the immortall soules of such who are or may be drawne away by giving heed to seducing Spirits In the hearty and tender compassion whereof Wee the said Lords and Commons doe order and ordaine that Wednesday being the 10th day of March next to be set apart for a day of publick Humiliation for the growth and spreading of Errours Heresies and Blasphemies to bee observed in all places within the kingdome of England and dominion of Wales and town of Berwick and to seek to God for his direction and assistance for the suppression and preventing the same And all Ministers are hereby enjoyned to publish this present Ordinance upon the Lords day preceeding the said 10th of March See hence then may dear Presbyterian Brethren first as I toucht before if here be not singular encouragement unto you all in City and Country to set seriously and speedily upon this worke of modest and lawfull petitioning as a foresaid Secondly whether you are not most likely to receive kind acceptance in so doing and thanks for your paines and care therein And thirdly if the Parliamentary Independents hinder not as they are most likely to be the main if not only obstacles therein what unquestionable good desired success as by this excellent Ordinance may easily be gathered is likely to follow thereon And fourthly and lastly consider from all the foresaid premises thus now put together whether all truly pious Protestants and Presbyterians over the whole kingdome have not as great and just cause to bend all their zeale and combined power of Petitioning aginst the Sectaries and Schismaticks in Parliament as the unquestionable causes of the great growth of all the Errours and Schismes among us and as the most unhappy obstructers and hinderers of the most long and zealously desired building and settlement of the Presbyterian Church-Government as ever they had against Papists Prelates or Royall-Malignants Which if they see not certainly they are wilfully blind or if seeing yet are basely content willingly to yeeld to a most ignominious and slavish security and Laodiceanluke-warmnesse to the unexpressible misery that inevitably accompanyes the being justly spued out of Gods presence and protection of love by most lewdly allowing a most abhominable Toleration of all religions and so by an unquestionable consequence of having no religion among us and then also no God to helpe us O then that it would please the Lord to put into the hearts of his honest and heroick Servants both in City and Country now againe most stoutly and strenuously to shew their godly zeal and faithfull fervour of Spirit against those enemies of our Covenant in this the Churches as great necessity and importunity as ever it was in with a joynt and unanimous consent as then they most happily and honourably did and that with singular approbation and commendation of both Houses of Parliament and with desired successe too to petition Both Houses in a warrantable modest fair and befitting manner for the removeall of the persons of such Parliamentary Independents out of their Houses as are the known fautors and favourers of all Schismaticall Covenant-contemners and Ordinance violaters in reference to their contempt and obstructing of the Presbyterial Church-Government and power of godlynesse even as perniciously and impiously though more clandestinely and craftily as ever the Popish Lords Prelates or Malignants formerly were in their way and therein most invincibly to endeavour the just exonerating of our soules of the kingdomes great and groaning spirituall grievances the best way of all others to remove all our temporall disturbances also in the unsufferable abuses both of God and man among us even the intolerable growth and spurious spreading of blasphemies heresies errours and schismes together with the most abhominable impunity of the Broachers and Abettors of them and for the holy and happy compassing and completing of one of the maine ends of our sacred Covenant with our God and with our most loyall and loving brethren of Scotland namely the solid and substantiall setling of the Presbyterian Church-Discipline according to the word of God and the example of the best Reformed-Churches And O that it might please the Lord who has the hearts of all men in his hands and who can most easily turne them as the Rivers of water to put into the hearts of our most renowned noble and precious Patriots the unbyassed and honourable Presbyterian friends of Truth and pious Peace in Both Houses of Parliament who cordially and christianly casting away all ignoble selfe-seeking aymes and interests do religiously and conscientiously cohere and correspond with sound and settled judgements and resolutions to set up Christs kingdome according to the Apostolicall institution in Gods word to be happy and honourable means for the more smooth and certaine carrying on of this said blessed businesse to purge if it bee possible Both their Houses in general and inparticular of al Committees from such incompetent and unequall judges as Sectaries and Independents are who ever they be from sitting in such seates of Iudicature to hear over-rule vote and determine such waighty Causes as are matters of Religion and Church-Reformation as wherein they themselves are so faulty and offensive yea devoted enemies to the Church and Children of God in poynt of Godly-Government and Church-discipline wherein that the Lord the great God of wisdome the only guider of every good action and the only giver of every good gift would direct and erect the hearts of our truly pious Parliamentary Patriots and sound Presbyterian Lords and Commons with profound wisedome impregnable fortitude of Spirit and invincible Christian Courage impartially and efficaciously to vote act and execute in pursuance also of their most excellent and religious Ordinance against the growth of damnable errours and blasphemies forementioned in the first place to remove those sorely offensive rubs and Remora's out of their Houses which thus have and doe and till they bee removed unquestionably will most sadly interrupt impede and retard the somuch and so long desired glorious work of Reformation it is and ever shall be a speciall part of my most serious and incessant prayers That so this being at length holily and happily effected Iudgement may run downe in our streets like waters and Righteousnesse as a mighty and strong streame That so our God may in Christ take pleasure in us and delight to doe us good all our dayes and to our succeeding Posterity after us Amen A Post-script CHristian Reader I have thought fit in this last place to desire thee to take serious notice but not without a most deep sigh from thy Soul that whereas the Parliament intended as we then hoped to have done some great and remarkable work for the just impeding of the growth of blasphemous Errours Schismes and Heresies among us as is most abundantly evident by that most excellent Ordinance of the 4th of March 1646 forementioned yet notwithstanding that Ordinance and the solemn day of Humiliation kept over the whole kingdome the 10th of March following nothing hath been done therein ever since which is now above 5. Moneths past but contrariwise a most foule and filthy greater growth and increase of them in all parts and places of the kingdome without the least controul or restraint by any authority O consider I beseech thee good Reader in the feare of the Lord what a horrid and hideous face of most abhominable hypocrysie and dissimulation does this neglect therein represent to the Lord our God and the whole world unto our everlasting indelible shame And vvhence my Christian Brethren can you possibly conceive this most black sin hath its rise and originall but mainly if not only from the Sectaries in our Parliament who as we have apparently seen all along have without all question most strongly and strangely and yet most craftily and cunningly crost and crusht all motions and means of carrying on this or any other waighty work of Reformation among us And will not our God be avenged on such a genearation as this And shall they prosper shall they escape or shall they be delivered that do such things and that thus break their Covenant with their God Ezekiel 17.15 16. FINIS

impieties both against God and Man and all under base and abusive pretences of tendernesse of Conscience forsooth and Christian Liberty to speake and do whatsoever they list without controle otherwise they cry out of Antichristian Persecution But mark here good Reader what wise King Solomon most pertinently sayes to this very purpose even touching Impunity to be the grand cause of the great growth of Impiety yea and of Impudency also therein Ecclesiastes 8.11 Because sentence against an evill work is not speedily executed therefore the hearts of the sons of men is fully set in them mark this notable and emphaticall expression to doe evill And certainly if ever this Scripture is now adayes to the full confirmed to the unexpressible griefe of our Soules be it spoken But now to come to a more particular manifestation of the truths which I only in briefe have mentioned before concerning the most irregular and extrajudiciall and inequitable carriage of things by our Sectarian Judges in the Court of the Committee for Complaints at Westiminster to the palpable and apparent heartning and animating of the most notorious Schismaticks in their most blasphemous and impious pranks and practices and to the most strange and almost incredible disheartning as much as in them is of the pious Presbiterian-Partie from their just zeal and commendable activity in the Cause of GOD and forwarding the work of Reformation Witnesse first therefore I say for confimation of these my affirmations the most unequall and unwarrantable miscarriage of things by some of the disaffected party of the foresaid Committee at the examination of an old and bold blasphemous Schismatick commonly called the Chicken-man who after this notorious Sectarie had made a repetition whereunto he was commanded by the Court of his Sermon forsooth which he had Preached or rather prated in a private house for which he was complained of and when he had and a ciously delivered even in the face of the Court divers very dangerous and most false opinions of his yet was so far and free from punishment or somuch as any bare discouragement for ought we yet can heare or know that one of the said Committees was heard to say to one of his disaffected brethren of this Committee sitting by concerning this beggerly Chicken-man and his impious preaching here is Gold in an earthen vessell And the said Chicken-man himselfe confessed as will be testified that he had 5 s given him by some of the said Committe for his brave boldnesse it should seeme in thus affronting the authority of Parliament Witnesse likewise the great encouragement and countenancing of the Schismaticall impiety and disorderly audaciousnesse of those two foresaid Anabaptists Mr. Knowlis and Kiffin the Glover at their examination forementioned at the very beginning whereof an eminent disaffected Member of the Committee stood up and the Court being set and the pious Chair-man in his place bee spake very much in the first place to the Chair-man and very affectionately in those Schismaticks behalfe whereby they might easily see and know before haud they had at least one fast friend in the Court for a fair proceeding for them in their examination which I humbly conceive and verily beleeve was never denyed them or otherwise intended toward them And when Kiffin in particular was closely examined for his disorderly and Schismaticall private preaching as never having been duly ordained thereunto another of the Committee did in my sight and hearing even as it were check the religious Chaire-man learned and much honoured Colonell Leigh for justly endeavoring strickly to examine the said Delinquent And this same Gentl. to the said Anabaptists farther great encouragement at the same time apparantly justified and that in the face of the Court those audacious fellowes in their unordained and irregular preaching even contrary to the Parliaments own Ordinance using these words or the like in effect That the Parliament did not intend nor was it as he conceived the sense of the House by that Ordinance to hinder guifted-men from Preaching this being one thing 〈◊〉 which many had fought and spent their bloud and ventur'd their ●ives but it was mainly to restraine Prelaticall and Iesuiticall ●reaching which was a meanes to encourage the Cavaleers and Malig●ants against the Parliament And when some of the honest and religious Witnesses gave in their testimony against the Delinquent divers of the audacious and unruly Anabaptists and other sorts of Sectaries whereof there were very many then in the Court and so use to be to affront and floute the Presbyterian Citizens with unsufferable scoffs and jeeres to their faces fell a hissing and to loud laughing at the Witnesse to the great offence and disturbance of the Court which I my selfe heard and saw round about me and noble Sir Robert Harlow most zealously and justly finding much fault with their so uncivill and unmannerly miscarriage of themselves and expressing much displeasure at it One of the disaffected Members of the Committee put a smooth jeere upon it and said He conceived it was rather an acclamation or applauding of the witnesse than any disparagement to him Which how likely hissing and laughing mixt together can make up such a sense let any judicious man judge Witnesse here also that most licentious and illegitimate abuse offered to the Liberty of the free-born Subjects and Citizens of London in that palpable and most worthily punishable affront and illegall imprisonment of those 3. worthy religious discreet and conscientiously active Gentl. and Citizens of London Captiane Wigmerpoole Mr. Patrick Bamford and Mr. Valentine Feige who were all three at one instant most injuriously imprisoned for only acting about a most honest Petition and Remonstrance which was to have been recommended by the Citizens to the Lord Major and Common-Councell of London to be by them presented to the Parliament in the name of the whole City and all this in such a regular and modest manner as had been by the Parliament it selfe ordered and prescribed to them yet notwithstanding I say for this honest and orderly acting of theirs these 3 aforesaid Gentl. were imprisoned by some Sectarian Parliament-Members contrary to the intention and order of Parliament as that whole Committee for Complaints publikely acknowledged in Court and worthy Sr. William Strickland who then sate in the Chair protested against it as unlawfull and none of his act or consent And those Schismaticall Members that commanded this most unlawfull imprisonment being since that discovered who they are And shall the Sectarian Party complain as in Teuledaye's seditious cause they did of wrong done to them in the obstructing and hindring their most pernicious and seditious petitions and dare they most abusively impeach 11. worthy Members of the House of Commons for this very thing as one soule fault and offence against the subject but indeed mainly because they are faithfull Presbyterians And shall not these Sectarian-Members be much more justly impeached of most illegall and injurious infringement of the Subjects Libertyes

dayes they also having like the Ingling Iesuits craftily and cunningly found by practice and experience that this Bolt was like to shut them out of the Parliament Conutry-Committees and other eminent gainfull gracefull and over-awing places both Martiall and Majesteriall they now therefore just I say like the Jesuits of Rome for the propagation of their Cacolick Cause also I meane Tolleration of All-Religions and diabolicall and accursed Liberty of Conscience aliàs most prophane Libertinisme doe most dissemblingly falsly and fraudulently using the said Sacred Covenant as those Jesuits did the Sacred Scriptures only as a Nose of wax or a Saylers Breechs to help them in a storme or at a dead-lift give selfe-dispensation of Liberty to their Consciences to submit to the taking thereof as well and readily to see to as the best of us all but still with the Jesuits old tacite-trick of Equivacation or mentall-Reservation taking it in their own-sense as most malevolently hating the litterall and genuine sense thereof and the positive and plain intentions and ends of the Parliament in generall in the Covenant as is and long hath been apparent by their practises and professions also both by word and pen among us not only in the Parliamentary and Country-Committees but also and most especially in the Army where most Insolently and audaciously as was toucht before the Commanders Officers and Souldiers slight reject and scorn all Ordinances of Parliament yea and the very Covenant it self as it relates to Church-Government especially and suppression of Errours Schismes and Blasphemies yea not withstanding that some of them pretend they have taken the Covenant which must needs shew and assure us most undoubtedly in what sense and with what Conscience and to what ends they tooke it The serious consideration whereof makes me here also to fetch another deep sigh for his Excellency Sir Tho. Fairfax who of late hath not a little overclouded and eclipsed the former radiant lustre and most specious splendor of his then justly merited Fame and Honour both by some late strange miscarriages in the Army in generall and also in so improvidently and doubtless insnaredly admitting and entertaining as his chief Chaplains for the Army two dangerous and audacious Soul-seducing Schismaticks as Mr. Dell Mr. Saltmarsh together with their bold blustring brother Peters who are most pernicious pestilent instruments to infect poyson the whole Army if it be possible with their seditious and damnable Doctrins by which deceitfull designe of theirs I say forementioned in thus taking the Covenant they most Satanically keep-up and drive-on their owne hopefull and underhand mischeivous Machinations and thereby also mightily molest obstruct and retard almost all our pious Presbyterian-Actings accor ding to our Conscience and Covenant as the fear of the Lord whose vowes are upon us do most importunately command us and our fervent and deeply obliged love to Truth and Peace doth constantly constraine us And thus wee see to our sad sighing indeed that no bands nor bounds will hold or keep in these vild and wild Beasts but that most craftily and unconscionably they break through all and we have now therefore but one only way under God alone which is the last and maine thing I aime at in this discourse to help our selves out of the tearing and tyring troubles of these Bryers and Brambles our Sectaries and Schismaticks and that I humbly conceive is only this and it is backt also with a fresh and experienced pregnant example among our selves some few years past which is as followeth There was as we all well remember at the beginning of this present Parliament a great Complaint and that not without great and just cause against Popish Lords and Prelates sitting in the House of Peeres and of rotten-hearted Malignant Members in the House of Commons who in those times mightily molested and obstructed the most waighty and great affaires of the Parliament and so consequently perturbed the good of the whole kingdome especially then also in matters of Religion and due execution of Iustice upon offenders whereupon the most famous and ever to be honoured and renowned City of London bravely began to Petition the Parliament for the expulsion of them out of both Honses and immediately thereupon almost all the well-affected Counties of the kingdome followed their worthy example and most eagerly and earnestly fell a petitioning against them and continually came flocking up to London to the Parliament in most numerous and mighty multitudes to that purpose yea and so importunately prest their desires therein till at last by Gods wonderfull providence and the Parliaments most favourable acceptance of their Petitions and so far then from calling or accounting it a breach of Priviledge of Parliament that they gave them all great thanks for their Love and Zeale therein And all these things thus concurring together strook as it was apparent such terror and amazement into the hearts of the Popish-Lords Prelates and Malignants in both Houses that speedily upon it partly by the Prelates own remarkable pride and folly and partly by an univerfall Conscience-accusing fright and terrour at these things both Houses of Parliament were most admirably freed of them and all things thereupon presently after were carryed on most prosperously and with singular smooth successe to the great comfort and universall high content of the whole kingdome and so continued a long time after untill these present crafty Sectarian Mombers unhappily crept into the house of Commons and others have since been poysoned by them And have not We my deare Presbyterian Brethren for to you now I apply this my main and most earnest desire in these our dayes as great and just cause considering all I have already said before and much more that might be said therein as ardently and earnestly to complaine protest and petition against some disaffected Lords in the House of Peeres and against many Independent Members in the House of Commons who next to our own sins are the main if not only restlesse Remora's and most dangerous disturbers and delayers yea mockers and deluders of our Covenant-engaged Reformation to Gods most high dishonour the most justly incensing of his devouring-wrath against us and the deepe heart-wounding griefe and sorrow of all the truly pious and peaceable people throughout the whole kingdome by reason of their hopes thus unhappily damped and delayed yea I say jeered and abused by those Sectaries and Schismaticks in the House of Commons Slight not I beseech you my dear Presbyterian-Brethren both in City and Country this my serious and I hope seasonable advice by supine security in regard of the present seeming serenity of things which hath been the bane of many famous and flourishing States and Common-weales and yet all things considered we have little cause to conceit so of the present times But if they were so yet know that I have read long since in Plutarch's Lives of a Governour of Thebes or Athens if my memory much faile me not