Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	good_a	great_a	know_v	5,049	5	3.5427	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A80400	The old proverbe, as good be a knave, as amongst knaves (though Committee men) is debated, and concluded to be false, by Francis Cooke, and Thomas Gualter, as they were riding between London and Cambridge, and conferring upon this proverb, and many other things usefull for all to know, but more especially for some in authority. In which conference the innocent, and such as have stood for the truth, are made known and commended, and the nocent and such as use deceit and falshood are discovered, and left to bear their deserved shame and punishment. As also the cruel and unreasonable doings of some Committee men, and others, against good men, and such as have been most forward for the Parliament: some of their abuses stript, which deserve to be whipt.	Cooke, Francis, of Cambridge?,; Gualter, Thomas.	1646 (1646)	Wing C6009; Thomason E316_3; ESTC R200520	22,111	16

THE OLD PROVERBE As good be a Knave as amongst Knaves though Committee men is debated and concluded to be false by Francis Cooke and Thomas Gualter as they were riding between London and Cambridge and conferring upon this proverb and many other things usefull for all to know but more especially for some in authority In which conference the innocent and such as have stood for the truth are made known and commended and the nocent and such as use deceit and falshood are discovered and left to bear their deserved shame and punishment AS ALSO THE CRUEL AND UNREASOnable doings of some Committee men and others against good men and such as have been most forward for the Parliament some of their abuses stript which deserve to be whipt Prov. 1.10.13 My Son if sinners intice thee consent thou not if they say we will fill our houses with spoil come cast in thy lot amongst us we will have one purse Prov. 11.8 9. The righteous is delivered out of trouble and the wicked cometh in his steed An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour but through knowledge shall the just be delivered Iam. 1.26 That man that seemeth to be religious and refraineth not his tongue his religion is vain Matth. 5. Blessed are ye when men revile you and speak all manner of evil against you falsly for my sake 1 Pet. 3.17 For it is better if the will of God be so that you suffer for well-doing then for evil doing Psal. 50. But to the wicked said God what hast thou to do to take my words into thy mouth seeing thou hatest to be reformed A CONFERENCE BETWEENE FRANCIS COOKE And THOMAS GVALTER as they were riding betweene LONDON and CAMBRIDGE Thomas Gaulter YOu are well overtaken Mr. Cook how far travell you this way Francis Cook To Cambridge Ga. So do I what shall we get thither to night think you C. No but to morrow in the forenoon I hope I use to ride easily G. I will ride as easily as you for I desire to have some talk with you about your brother Scotten what think you had it not been better for him to have been quiet and have let his fellow sequestrators alone I beleeve he repents it now Cook Then it seems you think the old proverb is true as good be a knave as amongst knaves I grant you that if my brother Scotten had not reproved them and complained of their misdemeanors concerning the sequestration they had not complained of him to the commissioners of the excise nor sequestred his goods as they have done my brother heard before that some of them did threaten him that if he complained of them about the sequestration they would out him of the excise office but not knowing wherein he had offended was no whit deterred but being bound by a double band to disclose their naughty doings did proceed to complain against them what though he did expose himself to their rage he thought it better to do so then worse G. You seem to charge some Committee men and other officers I know who you mean to be knaves I think you do very ill for there be many deceived if they be not honest men and very forward for the Parliament but I am not of opinion it is as good be a knave as amongst knaves but that a man should rather suffer any thing in his name person and estate then joyn with knaves in their knavery but it will be a hard task to prove them to be knaves C. My bro Scotten was once of your mind he being in a manner a stranger to them yet their seeming forwardnes for the Parliament and their cunning carriage made him beleeve they were men converted insomuch that when they or any of them suffered he was bound to suffer with them spake writ and spent much money and time in their behalfs yea lost the favour of many great and good men in pleading their cause for my br bearing an honest mind did think they had done so too and whereas you say I seem to charg them to be knaves I do not love foul language but when you have heard but some of their carriages which are known to many and may be proved against them then I shall leave it to you and to all men to judge what they be G. It may be they will say they can prove as much against your br Scotten C. I am sure some of them have fouly scandalized him already but they neither have nor can prove the least tittle against him in his offices that was in his power to help and when it is known how their tongues are accustomed to slander not only good men but also great men not sparing the Parliament nor the assembly of Divines and other orthodox Ministers then it will be thought no marvell if they shall deal so with my brother but I shall passe by many of their misdemeanors both in their words and actions which although they are true cannot be proved so clearly an instance against them and in the behalf of my brother Scotten in such things as are well known to many and may be fully proved G. If you will do so I le tell you after what I have heard them and others affirm concerning your brother Scotten I would gladly know how you or he can answer them for I desire to be rightly informed if he be an honest man he is much wronged C. It is very true what the Scriptures say Prov 4. he that reproveth a scorner purchaseth to himself shame and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot for I am well assured my brother is exceedingly wronged by them and by many others that side with them since he began to reproove them and complain against them but I shall begin and first I shall instance Downham house they selling the best of those houshold goods that were the Bishops to themselves and to one another at undervalues insomuch that it is grown into a proverb in Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Elie that Luke Voyce sold to L. Voyce c. to make short it is most certain that L. Voyce sold to himself and to his sons the richest and the best of that houshold stuffe except one room ready furnished and hanged with tapestry for 20. l. to Jam Whinnell which some say was worth 60. l. I never saw it to take any notice of it and they made my brother beleeve they gave to the full value of them untill every one cryed shame of their doings Secondly I shall instance in Downham parke with the lands adjoyning worth 120.l per annum L. Voyce having a share therein let it be examined what it hath yeelded to the State I am sure it had not yeelded 1.d when my brother complained in June 1645. Thirdly Mr. Pigs goods sold and part of his lands let between Ia. Whinnell and his father and W. Nichols at undervalues Fourthly some of them combine with Th Wilson of Emneth a

abhominable in their doings and they have wronged your brother exceedingly for as you say the ordinance for sequestration doth intend allowance for necessary charges and pains but if it did not it seemes each of them had more in their hands at the same time then your brother was to be accountable for but what did your brother do when he heard of it did he not desire his goods again untill there might be a fair tryall and know for what cause they sequestred him C. Yea what I have told you is most true and I 'le tell you what my brother did the first 2. or 3. daies he could not tell what to think upon it that his cattle should be driven away nor by what authority nor for what cause at last he heard by the authority of Ia. Whinnell L. Voyce and Ric. Ponsonby his fellow Sequestrators and W. Nichols their Collector and that it was for this 100.l he received of Ion. Dunch as you heard it and then he sent some neighbours and friends to desire of them that he might have his milch cowes again his plow and cart horses and mares for his present use and he would put them in what security they would require that they should be forth comming the last of Sept. then next following in case he did not betwixt that and then which was about 8. weeks between bring an order to have them again they peremptorily refused yet my brother staid a while longer before he went to London to complain thinking they had not been so far transported with rage but upon cold blood they would have yeelded to so reasonable a request but after he perceived they had sold them up he goeth to London and doth petition the Lords and Commons for sequestration who after some weeks attendance referred it to the standing Committee at Cambridge to send for the parties on both sides and their witnesses and examine them and end or certifie within a moneth G. Is it possible they should refuse to let him have his milch cowes plow and cart horses and mares those necessary cattle upon security and that but for 8. weeks this makes them more and more odious and I think if these things be proved they will be judged to be unfit men to be imployed in any office under the Parliament But what did the Committee at Cambridge in it C. My brother saith he is bound to honour that Committee for their justice for after they had examined 5. or 6. witnesses on his behalf they perceived that malice was the cause they sequestred his goods but because I. Whinnell did alleadge that they could not have their witnesses there although they had warning and time enough and did further alleadge that he must of necessity go to London so that the month would be out which was the time limitted to end the busines the Committee did not fully end it then but ordered that for the present my brother should have his milch cowes plow and cart horses and mares again they being sold but for 40.l as themselves confessed the Committee being informed that the parties that had bought them considering how my brother was wronged were willing he should have them again and further ordered that his other goods which were unsold should not be sold untill the cause was fully heard and that if they did prove sequestrable my brother should pay the said 40 l. to the State G. What hath your brother done hath he yet got longer time of the Committee of Lords and Commons that the gentlemen at Cambridge might hear it out and determine it C. Not as yet for they would not obey the order of the Committee of Cambridge untill very lately that they heard they were like to be sent for up to answer their contempt before the Committee of Lords and Commons I. Whinnell being so far from obeying the order of Committee of Lords and Commons that since their order of reference to the standing Committee at Cambridge he hath forged a warrant and counterfeited hands and sent men into Norfolk with that forged warrant hath taken 40. coombe of cole-seed from my brother which grew there where he had nothing to do to sequester pretending in the warrant he took it for the State but caused it to be brought into his own chamber at Wisbeech and then said he had a right to it himself this forged warrant my brothers sonne did get from the men and it is to be seene with the counterfet hands besides insteed of obeying the order of Committee of Lords and Commons and of the Committee of Cambridge they did still proceed and seized upon my brothers wheat imprisoned and fined those that did help him to make money for the reliefe of him and his family notwithstanding that the much honoured Governour of the Isle at my brothers request required them to forbear and yeeld obedience to the said orders And now my brother hath voluntarily sent in his accounts in particular to the Commissioners for the accounts of Cambridgeshire where it will evidently appear that my brother was to be accountable but onely for 87.l 6 s. 6.d of the States money before they sequestred his goods which being not so much as he expended in the States service in two years upon necessary charges it must needs follow that he had not one penny of the States money in his hand when they sequestred his goods as I said unto you before which when the standing Committee at Cambridge perceive plainly to be so they cannot but in justice restore to my brother all his goods again they being so unjustly taken from him and allow him for reparation of his losses his dammage being very great in his estate besides what he hath been damnified in his credit which is not a little a good name being better then precious ointment as Solomon saith G. Some say Ia. Whinnell gave it forth he would not have sequestred your brothers goods but that he was the cause to hinder his brother in law for preaching any more at Wisbeech and they further say that very many there are much imbittered against your brother for that C. Yea I heard that Ia. Whinnell did say so but I do not beleeve for all his saying that that was the cause alone but it is true that many people thereabout are much inraged against my brother for that but they have no reason so to be I hope they will see their errors one day and be sorry for them G. I le tell you now the particulars they reckon up against your brother they do not let to say he hath beene a contentious man most part of his time and they instance in these following First he contended with Vicar Giles 12. yeares together and with his son in law Tho. Wilson not only about the Ship money but also about Trespasses and that your brother almost alone in the countrey opposed the paying of the said Ship-money in so much that men were constrained to distraine him

they say my brother is such a strong Presbyterian c. I le tell you hee is so farre from sideing so as to make the breach wider that hee honours all those that bee godly men whether Presbyterian or Independant not pretending to have so much knowledge as to conclude certainely which is the best where so many Godly men do differ yet according to that small measure of knowledge he hath his judgement is rather inclin●ble for the Presbyterian But desires to wait untill it shall please God to reveal those things to his humble servants that seeke unto him But I le tell you what kind of people my Brother doth not approve of such as the Apostle Peter and Jude speakes of which speake evil of those things they know not nor understand someing out their owne shame and walking after their owne lusts one of them affirmed openly in the Market place at Wisbeech that a Godly learned Preacher that preached there could a ly in the Pulpit because he said whom God loves once he loveth to the end and cited Iohn 13 1. to prove it And threatned hee would pull him out by the eares if he came thither againe And the same man Iames Whinnell another time comming to carpe at an able Ministers doctrine now placed by the honourable Committee for plundered Ministers in Wisbeech tels him the scriptu●es are plaine enough of themselves they neede no interpretation This Preacher demands of him what hee thought of those places where it saith the eyes of the Lord and the Arme of the Lord and the like whether he did thinke that God hath eyes and Armes as men have yea saith he I thinke so for is it not said God made man after his owne Image And this man hath many that side with him and seeke to uphold him such as call our best Preachers Baals Priests Rascalls and the like although they be such as the Apostle Paul commendeth workemen which neede not be ashamed but are able to divide the word of God aright Yet themselves whilst they thus vilifie Godly Preachers are profane in their lives not regarding the Lords daies but speaking their owne words and doing their owne workes on those daies nor observing the fast daies but minding feasting rather then fasting when God and men call for it Gualter I am very glad to heare your answer concerning these complaints for certainly most of these things deserve praise we have had too few such men as your Brother C I am glad to heare you judge so rightly of them he spake truly that said truth may loose at the start yet it will get ground afterwards and winne I le tell you of two or three things more my Brother hath done that his adversaries will now hardly speake of But if the Kings partie should prevaile they will be laid open to the full At the first setting forth of the Parliaments propositions for Horse Men Money and Plate my Brother lent and expended above the tenth part of his poore estate in Iuly 9. and Iuly 12. 164● He listed two ●●●at horses in Moor-fields with their riders ready furnished valued at 42.l besides he kept them in London one moneth at 5 shil. per diem which cost him about 7 pounds more they went forth in Major Gunters Troope the first was raised but the Lord Brookes If every one of his ability had then hearkened to the Parliament and set forth but one such horse with his rider or the value thereof in money at that time as the Citie of London did abundantly in all probability their forwardnesse would so have damped the other side that they would have had no hearts nor hopes to have taken up Armes and so all this unnaturall warre had beene prevented and many thousand of mens lives preserved and multitudes that have beene plundered and undone would still have beene in a flourishing Condition I speake not of those that were contrarie minded for if all men had beene for the Parliament they had not needed to have prepared for their defence I onely speake of those that seemed to bee so but did nothing or very little untill it was too late my Brother being at London in Iuly aforesaid when he listed his horses and their riders it being in harvest time he not regarding so much the getting in of his harvest as the peace of the Kingdome meets with a Country Gentleman of his acquaintace who admired his forwardnesse my Brother answered him he did it to keepe peace for said he if the Countries would doe as many of the Londoners and I have done it would be a means to preserve peace the Gentleman answered my Brother said well but I thinke at that time he did but little but it hath Cost him the price of many such horses since Gualter But why doe you speake of this Now it is too late to helpe it C. I speake of it to this end First that many who now ly under sundry grievances may cease to murmure against others and repent they came not timely to helpe the Lord against the mighty for it may be now said unto them as Paul said to the Marriners and Master of the Ship in another case Sirs you should have hearkened to the Parliament and have saved all this losse And as they were faithfull unto you who made choise of them so ought you to have beene and not have deserted them and the cause in which your selves were interessed with them when they made it publiquely knowne there was need of your helpe Secondly to shew my Brothers faithfulnesse and readinesse at that time which the Parliament must needs take as an acceptable service what though it resemble the two Mites cast in by the poore Widdow in comparison of what others did Thirdly to shew the evill disposition of those that derive their power from the Parliament and have so ill requited him as to take away his Cattle and goods without cause After this my Brother had only two sonnes men growne both which hee set forth to beare Armes for the Parliament who have voluntarily Jepordide their lives in the high places of the fielde have beene in the greatest fights and though I say it they are men that have behaved themselves so as they have had praise Besides my Brother himselfe followed the Armie at least three moneths to encourage the Souldiers at his owne Costs after which he comming to Wisbeech was a chiefe instrument to preserve the Ile of Elye out of the hands of the Parliaments enemies for hee hearing that Sir Ier. Scroote raised Souldiers about Gednie-Cap Welby neare Sutten and others began to fortifie Crowland of another side and Linn Regis of the other side And Captaines entertained at Dodington in the said Isle and began to fortifie there Capt. Pigg spake of beating up a Drum about Wisbeech for Souldiers And that the Castle of Wisbeech was in the hands of the Parliaments enemies whether men and Ammuniton might be quickly and closely conveyed both by

to bring Ia. Whinnel into that office by commending of him to be a fit man for a subcommissioner C. Yea they did so but my brother told them he was exceedingly deceived in him as some others have been he had hoped he had been converted from his former deboist and evill courses but since he hath found he is like the dog turning again to his vomit G. I see nothing yet but your brother being a man so well deserving of the Parliament might be still continued in his office of excise for to deal truly with you I had much ado to refrain my selfe when you told me how he was persecuted by ●ic●Giles and his son Wilson and had such injustice by those Judges and how he stood out to the end would not deny the truth though it cost him 500.l and how since to his cost he hath with stood the illegall tax of sh●p-money hath been at cost and taken pains in removing bad ministers in the place of his aboad and been a means to help good ones in their room been so forward for the Parliament that it cost him above the tenth part of his estate hazarding his own life and his sons for the Parliament and the cause maintained by them hath been a means to preserve the Island where he dwels from being under the power of the enemy the State thereby having the benefit of the excise and yet to be scandalized disgraced and counted as an evil doer made to suffer so much losse in his estate that by men deriving their power from the Parliament and such as would be taken to be for them being so ungratefull to him that hath suffred so much for them I say I cannot but take it to heart and certainly all good men that hear it must needs do so and therefore I would advise you to put this our conference in print that it may be published to vindicate your brother who hath been so publikely disgraced and give to each of the Commissioners and such Committees as it most concerns a little book I cannot think but they will have a good opinion of your brother and shew him all lawfull favour for there is nothing in it that casts the least spot upon the Parliament nor any good men in authority under them C. I thank you Mr. Gaulter for that you give credit to what I have told you and for your good counsell and that you have a fellow feeling of my brothers sufferings for his wel doing but I must tell you my brother was resolved never to have joyned with I. Whinnel any more in the excise office if he might for he hath been a great looser by his meanes since he trusted him and since I. Whinnel was sentenced out of his offices my brother hath not been with the Commissioner for the excise fo● as he sought not for that office at first so hath he not gone about to make friends to continue ●● although for the better taking of all scandall from him he could willingly have joyned with some sufficient honest man But now I hear certainly the commissioners have made choice of others and have much indeavoured to choose honest men yet I conceive if it were published it would be for the benefit of the State and so far from casting the least aspersion upon the Parliament or any Committees of Parliament men or others that are good that it sets forth their deserved praise besides it may be a means to vindicate my brother Scotten nor onely before the Commissioners of the excise but all others that have been deceived by false reports and so repair him in his dammages and lay open the abuses of such men as in some respects are worse then that unrighteous Judge that neither feared God nor reverenced man resembling those ungodly men that are crept in unawares of whom Iude speaketh that they may be brought to their de●erved punishment further it may be usefull to all First to confirm this truth that no bonds of friendship will make wicked men faithfull to godly men therefore try before you trust have good experience of the conversion conversation and faithfulnes of men before you trust them so far that if they prove perfidious they may do you a mischief take heed how ye both reprove a scorner or cast pearles before swine the former will endeavour to work you shame the latter will rend you imbrace that counsel as much as in you lieth have peace with all men but because peace alwaies cannot be for we are exhorted to contend for the faith once given to the saints and there is a what peace c and the wisedome that is from above is first pure then peaceable therefore secondly let every one resolve to do his duty in his place although he be accounted contentious or a busie man for his pains were Nehemiah now living amongst us should do as he did in Ierusalem as you may reade 13. he would certainly be counted a contentious busie man yet he had peace within and could say remember me O my God in mercy in the good that I have done I 'le tell you to Gods praise and glory be it spoken that during all that 12. years and above that my brother was troubled and persecuted for contending for the faith against Vicar Giles that it cost him 500. l. he was not worse in his estate at the end of that time 500. d. finally if God see it good otherwise as to suffer evil men not only to raise and spread false reports of his people but also to spoll depri●● them of many of these outward blessings let us remember what Paul saith Phil. 1.18.19 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries which is to them an evident token of perdition but to you of salvation and that of God for to you it is given not onely to beleeve on him but also to suffer for his sake Observe the words well a suffering condition is a gift as well as faith which God useth to bestow upon his beloved ones to adorn them withall Now Mr. Gualter are welcome to Cambridge G. I thank you Mr. Cook both for your company and for the good satisfaction you have given me concerning your brother get it printed assoon as you can good use may be made of it many waies and if it give not satisfaction to all yet it will to many that fear God have experience of the enmity that is in the seed of the serpent to the seed of the woman FINJS LONDON Printed according to order by Thomas Paine 1645.