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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08426	A true report of the disputation or rather priuate conference had in the Tower of London, with Ed. Campion Iesuite, the last of August. 1581. Set downe by the reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein. VVhereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite. Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie	Nowell, Alexander, 1507?-1602.; Day, William, 1529-1596. aut; Fielde, John, d. 1588.; Fulke, William, 1538-1589. aut; Goad, Roger, 1538-1610. aut; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. aut; Walker, John, d. 1588. aut; Charke, William, d. 1617. aut	1583 (1583)	STC 18744; ESTC S113389	169,017	230

labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded frō a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpō her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not frō the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts cōfesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene coūcill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giuē Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her y● she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne t●…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away y● head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the

pray all indifferent readers to consider of these maner of dealings For Saint Augustine in that place writeth against the wicked opiniō of those who mistaking Saint Paules wordes of Iustification by sayth without workes do by an euill securitie neglect to liue well not seeking by true faith the helpe of God to the ouercomming of their owne euill concupiscences but doe despise the workes of righteousnes by a dead faith do promise to them selues euerlasting life These be Saint Augustines expresse wordes in that place truely translated which they haue most vntruely and malitiously alleaged against vs against the heresie as they terme it of iustification by faith onely which they woulde haue the simple people to mistake as though wee woulde exclude all things vniuersally sauing faith onely and did vtterly cast away all care of good workes godly life yea and all desire of Gods grace to assiste vs as did they against whom S. Augustine in that place did write But we protest before God and all good men that we neuer meant to make faith the chiefe and onely cause of our iustification but that the grace and mercie of God by our sauiour Iesus Christ promised to the faithfull in his holy worde is the principall and originall cause and very fountaine of our iustification and that faith not a dead faith as they thought against whome S. Augustine doth write but a liuely faith being wrought in our hearts by the said word of God and by the operation of the holy ghost beleeuing Gods promise of his mercy in Christ is the instrumentall cause in vs whereby onely wee receiue our iustification without the merite of our workes and yet being iustified we are most boundē to walke in all good works as much as it shall please God to giue vs grace thereunto for the which we ought to sue by cōtinuall most heartie prayer Which our doctrine you may see to bee most contrarie to the wicked opinion of those against whom S. Augustine writeth in that place and that therefore it is most falsely and malitiously alleaged as against vs who by faith onely iustifying vs meane not to exclude the doing but the merites of our good workes which is no heresie wherewith these men would charge vs but the very truthe it selfe taught in the holy Scriptures and by the auncient godly fathers and learned doctors set down in the very same wordes which we do vse as hath bene before at large declared Of the conclusion of our conference the Pamphleters write thus At the last the Protestantes did make a doe as though some thing had bene wonne when in my soule I protest there was not but in any indifferent audience the aduerse Protestants had bene quite confounded For Master Campion and Sherwin too would haue sayde much more in defence of their cause but one of them by his Commissioners authoritie suddenly made an ende cutting them off from all further speache Thus they do write In deede when we had continued very long and the sunne shining vpon our faces in at the South windowes and the throng being very greate and by occasion of both the heate so intollerable that some of vs were fayne to go out of the chauncel to take breath and to returne againe and Master Campion and wee being nowe come to a very neare point of agreement in the question of iustification as is afore noted in the end of our conference we turning to Master Lieutenaunt sayde If it shall so please you let vs here make an ende With a good will sayd he and so we brake off And here is all the Commissioners authoritie which they speake of that wee or any of vs did take vpon vs. And thus ended our conference with Campion the iudgement of the trueth of their or our reportes whereof wee doe leaue vnto God and to those who were present thereat Surely we by our notes set downe whiles our cōference was yet fresh in memorie and by sundry conferences amongst our selues sithen and with other also who were there present yea and by diligent perusing of the pamphlets written against vs haue endeuoured to set downe all poyntes that were dealt with in our sayd conference with as much trueth concerning the substance of the matter as our diligence and memory and the remembrance of other also could possibly attayne vnto Alexander Nowell William Daiie ¶ The three last dayes conferences had in the Tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite the 18 23 and 27. of September 1581. collected and faithfully set downe by M. Iohn Feilde student in Diuinitie Nowe perused by the learned men themselues and thought meete to be published Ianuarij 1. 1583. ❧ To the Christian Reader grace and peace THou hast here gentle Reader a true report of the whole substance of the conferences had in the Tower the last three dayes faythfully gathered out of the notes of diuers that wrote there and afterwarde perused by the learned men them selues and nowe lastly published by authoritie If any man be inquisitiue why they were set forth no sooner he may vnderstande that being priuate conferences it was thought not much requisite to make thē publikely knowen neither had they bin now set forth if the importunitie of the aduersaries by their sundry vntrue and contrary reportes made and scattered amongst their fauourites had not euen perforce drawen thē forth If Campions answeres be thought shorter thē they were thou must knowe that he had much wast speach which being impertinent is nowe omitted although I protest nothing is cut off from the weight and substance of the matter for of that I made conscience and had speciall regarde Againe if the repliers speaches seeme to be more ample it is because their authorities then alleadged onely in Greeke or Latine are nowe at large put downe both in Greeke Latine and English But for the arguments and answeres I was euen religious faythfully to reporte them as they were Wherein I appeale to all the hearers in Gods sight to whose grace I commit thee Iohn Feilde ❧ A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower with Edmunde Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctours in Diuinitie the 18. of September 1581. as followeth AFter that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull that Campion denying to pray with them had superstitiously all to be crossed himselfe Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect D. Fulke Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke where you slaunder our Church of Englande the whole Church of God for the definition of the Catholike Church for that we define it so as it shoulde be inuisible we come to prooue both by the Scriptures and Fathers that it is inuisible But this I woulde haue knowen vnto you that our

of the weakenesse of his stile is in the Apostle an humilitie comming from the holy Ghost Charke You answere not to the Argument therefore to auoyde the cauil consider the Syllogisme againe in this sort Whatsoeuer is the worde of God is full sound and perfect it doeth neither aske nor neede pardon in any respect But the second booke of Marchabees doth both neede aske pardon in some respect Therefore it is not the worde of God Norton If you will stay a while and speake leasurely you shall haue the Argument written and while it is writing if you will haue any thing added or changed it shall be done It will be more profitable for the hearers and greater ease for your selues Camp With a good will I answere In it selfe and for it selfe it neither needeth nor asketh pardon but for circumstance In respect of dainty eares it may aske pardon Charke Why Campion shall the holy Ghost begge pardon in respect of daintie eares Camp Syr Put this in also that I say it was in respect of the stile for the forme and the maner of it Norton Well I haue put it in so Charke Let him put in all his shiftes helpes clogging his answeres as much as he will we will cast the clogges vpon his owne heeles and thus I reason agaynst all your cauils Whatsoeuer is in the worde of God is all of the holy Ghost both for matter for stile and for circumstance and the holy Ghost asketh no pardon for any of these Therfore the 2. booke of the Machabees asking pardon is not of the holy Ghost nor canonical scripture Here Campion ●…eeing hastie before master Norton had written it through out master Norton willed him to stay a little Campion replied that it was losse of time To which Master Norton answered againe that it was a gaining of the time He desired that the word all might bee inferred in the Antecedent Charke I sayd all Norton So it is and rightly set downe Camp Then I answere thus This circumstance of asking pardon is of the holy Ghost for it is a speach of humilitie proceeding from the holy Ghost as is Saint Paules speach Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach Et non in persuasibilibus verbis humanae sapientiae Not in the perswasible wordes of mans wisedome Charke Rudis sum sermone commeth oft and rudely in and yet the alledging of it hath bene disproued long ago Neuerthelesse seeing it pleaseth you so wel it shal be a weapō of your owne giuing to vse against your selfe For the Apostle of purpose auoyding the wisdome of mans eloquence doth iustifie that which his aduersaries called rudenesse of speach as lawfull and good Neither doth he as you imagin confesse any want or craue pardon Therefore your example is false deceitfull and vnlearned It is a trim thing for you to abuse the multitude vnder opinion of great learning and to match those that are no scriptures with scriptures sometime affirming one thing and another time another sometime that the Apostles speach is rude and the stile base and needeth pardon in respect of daintie eares and now last that it needeth no pardon but is done for humilitie whereas the holy Ghost neuer asketh pardon of man for any thing he doth for that were to bring God vnder man and make the spirit of God subiect to the allowance or disallowance of sinfull flesh Camp I answere that neither this of the Macchabees nor Pauls speach hath need of pardon in it selfe Charke It is too too much absurd to accuse the holy ghost of waste and needles speach For if there needed no pardon it was not according to the holy Ghost to craue it Camp I haue said neither this nor the Apostles speach needed any pardon in it selfe and yet it was not waste and needlesse because it proceeded of humilitie Charke Will you charge the holy ghost with dissimulation speaketh he one thing and meaneth another Camp I say it was not waste because it proceeded of humilitie to craue pardon Charke Wel I proue my assertion against this your imagined humilitie of the holy Ghost to sinfull flesh Whatsoeuer is without cause is waste and needlesse But your self confesse it to be without cause for the holy ghost to craue pardon Therefore by your owne confession it is waste and needlesse Camp I denie the Minor For there is cause For in trueth the stile is simple Charke How often haue you granted the Minor saying he needed not to aske pardon now as forgetting your selfe you say there is cause of asking pardō For say you in truth the stile is simple Your speaches are contradictory Set it downe that y● aduersarie is not at one with him selfe Besides he was driuen before to grant the stile is not base or simple Camp I haue set downe no contrarietie but in respect Char. In respect is a simple shift Are not these contradictorie propositions He needeth not pardon but asketh it in humilitie and He needeth pardon for in trueth the stile is simple Camp I pray you read the place of the Maccabees Charke Thus you retire and aske moreouer that which needeth not For the place is well knowen and was read before But I will read it againe Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc ipse velim si autem minus dignè concedendum est mihi This I would haue all the companie marke and vnderstand whom you labor with indirect speaches to abuse draw from the truth that whether the authour of this booke excuse himself craue pardon in these wordes for his stile or for his storie neither can be of the holy ghost because as hath bene proued at large the holy ghost faileth nothing at all in any point of speach of matter or of circumstance Thus your distinctions and cause fall together Camp I haue answered you in what respect he craueth pardon and if that cannot satisfie you leaue it to God and this companie to iudge of Charke Sure your satisfaction is verie weake farre from satisfying God that hateth such fond distinctiōs to darken his word or those of the companie that seeke to be edified But you giue me new occasion to prosecute this matter What thinke you therefore of the storie of Iudith touching the dressing and decking of her selfe with apparell and ornaments fittest to deceiue Holofernes eies and what say you to her lies and praier that he might be taken with the snare of his eies looking vpon her the speaches vntrue and the action vnchaste in outward apparance were they thinke you of the holy Ghost Camp I maruell not that you so speake of me when you so speake of a blessed woman to bring so holy an action into doubt Surely you greatly offend me in so doing Charke I speake of the words and storie as it is plainly written she prayeth saying Capiatur laqueo oculorum suorum in me Percuties eum ex

Rom. Chap. 3. verse 20. chap. 4. verse 13. Eph. 2. ver 8. and verse 9. 2. Tim. 1. 9. Tit. 3. 5. beside some other Camp I doe but request that I may answere them seuerally for not one of them proueth your assertion Charke If you answere any of them I will subscribe to your doctrine in this point Tush Camp you may not thinke to face out the matter with these bare words Dare you say our iustification is partly of workes when the holy Ghost saith so often plainely and exclusiuely Not of workes Without workes Not of the lawe but without the lawe Herein I challenge you that make challenge against the trueth will proue that this weightie and great cause which may worthily be called the soule of the Church is directly and plainely set downe in all these places Denie it if you can Camp Bring one of the eleuen places Charke What say you to the Apostles conclusion Rom. 3. verse 20 Therefore by the deedes of the lawe no flesh shall be iustified Camp Will you giue me leaue to answere and to speake somewhat generally to this Charke You haue a particular place make a particular answere plainely and to the issue roue not in generall discourses that come not neere the marke Camp The meaning of Saint Paul in such places is to exclude the Iewes Ceremonies For the Iewes asseuering the obseruation of the lawe the keeping of their sacrifices and ceremonies as Circumcision c. to be necessarie to saluation S. Paul informeth the Gentiles that these things were not so necessary but faith was sufficient This he vrgeth throughout the Scripture So that faith is vrged but not faith only Againe by faith is meant all Christianitie and the whole religion of Christians which is sufficient without any parcell of the Iewes religion This is one generall consideration why Paul so often vrgeth faith throughout the Epistle to the Romanes and else where Another generall consideration is for that the wise men of the Gentiles did alledge their moralities as a cause of their election which Paul in the same Epistle stoode specially vpon and meant to confute as is afore sayde Charke Whether of these two interpretations you will allowe it followeth by your owne exposition that the Apostle concluding for faith against workes concludeth that it is Faith only that iustifieth shutting out all such workes as are opposed vnto it Nowe whereas you say that the workes opposite to faith are onely either the morall workes of the Gentiles or the Ceremoniall of the Iewes I will easily ouerthrowe the distinction Camp Ouerthrowe it then Charke First there was neuer any such errour mainteined in the Church that the morall workes of the Gentiles shoulde iustifie therefore Paul neuer laboured so much and so often to confute that errour which did not trouble the Church As for the Ceremonial workes the Apostles writing to the Ephesians not iustified with the obseruation of Iewish ceremonies had no cause to barre ceremoniall workes from iustification Therefore he teacheth that all the workes of the faithfull euen of Abraham are excluded from being causes of iustification and not Ceremonies onely or the moralities of heathen men as you imagine against the Apostles argument and scope in those places Camp The generall scope of Saint Paul is to exclude all workes both of Iewes and Gentiles in that Epistle but in the way of discourse I denie not but incidently an other answere is to be giuen Charke This last part of your speach is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the first doeth graunt all that I desire Camp He excludeth the precedent workes of Abraham Charke The ende why works are secluded from iustification doeth proue for me for the Apostle in that place sheweth the finall counsaile purpose of the Lord to be farre otherwise then you suppose And to remember my promise of Syllogisme I will proue it by the very forme of the Apostles wordes The ende and the meanes differ not The ende of our iustification was to exclude all workes precedent or consequent from being causes of iustification Therefore the meanes also must exclude euen all workes precedent and consequent going before or comming after Camp The ende was not to exclude all workes consequent Charke Whatsoeuer it was wherein Abraham might glorie that was excluded from iustification But in workes consequent or following he might glorie Therefore they also and al other workes whatsoeuer first and last are secluded and can be no cause or piece of cause in our iustification Camp The example of Abraham proueth that Abraham was iust before the couenant of Circumcision and so before the lawe of Moses was giuen and therefore he inferreth that the Iewes must not glorie of iustification through their lawe and by the ceremonies thereof seeing their father Abraham was iust before circumcision and therefore circumcision not necessary to iustification But though workes voyde of Christ are nothing yet thorowe grace they serue to iustification Charke Is this your way to answere Syllogismes to tell a tale of your owne and expaunde newe matter leauing the question Answere shortly Abraham hath nothing left to glorie in Therefore all workes whatsoeuer are excluded and so faith onely iustifieth Camp That is another place Charke Answere it then be it another or the same Camp The Apostle meaneth to shewe that Abraham was iustified by workes done in grace and not by workes without expectation of Christ or voide of Christ. Charke An open contradiction to the holy Ghost note it The Apostle faith Master Campion proueth that Abraham was iustified by workes I reply against you with a double argument First Abraham had all his workes of Christ for hee was faithfull therefore the works excluded are works wrought in grace Secondly he speaketh not of him as of an infidel but as being the father of beleeuers Therefore the Apostle excludeth not workes without expectation of Christ as you speake Answere it Campion Camp I answere that no works of Abraham are excluded Charke And I haue proued that all are excluded and you can neither answere the syllogisme nor satisfie the place of Saint Paul The text and argument is cleare If Abraham were iustified by any workes he had wherein to glorie But he could not glorie in any thing for that were absurde by the Apostles reason Therefore there were no workes of merite or iustification in him Camp This is the Apostles reason All the good workes of Abraham were founded in Christ and by these good workes he was iustified therefore he was iustified by Christ. For if he had bene iustified by other workes excluding Christ he might haue gloried and not bene iustified by Christ. Charke I can goe no further in this argument For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is against you that is the plaine text and argument Also I aduow it and make all this companie witnesses that you haue vttered in these straytes plaine contradictorie propositions The Apostle proueth that Abraham was