the People so bare and miserable being forced to contribute towards defraying the expenses of War and the maintenance of Princes although the poor contributors enjoyed but the least part of the land which obliged Kings at last to forbid Priests all kinds of further acquisitions If that had not been done they had swallowed all long since for heretofore there was an order that no Will should be made without bequeathing something to the Church And if any one dyed intestate an estimate was made of his inheritance and according to the value thereof a portion was allotted and given to the Priests For the remedying of that excess very excellent Laws have been made in England the Low Countreys and at Venice and the Parliament of Paris it self seeing the immense riches of the Carthusians and Celestins made orders expresly prohibiting them the acquiring of any more immovables P. Those regulations are just where Churchmen live in plenty but they should not be hindred from making moderate acquisitions it being reasonable that they who feed us spiritually should be maintained corporally G. Your argument is very good Poverty should not be permitted in the Church for it is impossible the Priest should carefully attend upon preaching the Gospel visiting the sick comforting the afflicted and administring the Sacraments and at the same time labour to get bread While Clergy-men were under continual suffering they stood in need of extraordinary assistance to keep them from falling into despair but growing too rich they were swallowed up in lazyness from whence there flowed streams of ignorance wantonness impiety luxury superstition idolatry and other vices which brought Christendom almost to utter ruine P. Let us not enter into the consideration of the lives manners and humours of Priests who have constrained good men to procure their reformation and that reformation caused rivers of blood which have very near drowned Christendom Tell me rather how the Ecclesiastical Princes come by their Dignity G. The Prelates of Germany are not all raised to their Dignity after one and the same manner and the order observed now differs from that which was observed when Germany received the Faith In the beginning of Christianity Bishops were every where chosen by the Clergy and the People joyntly After which when the Roman Emperors were become Christians they sometimes gave Bishops to the principal Churches by their own authority or of several that were proposed to them they made choice of him that pleased them best So Constans made Liberius Bishop of Rome and Theodosius the younger chose Nectarius to be Bishop of Constantinople from amongst many that were named to him Since the fourth age before which there were few or no Bishops in Germany the Kings made a Decree that no man should be promoted to the Episcopal Dignity without their consent and when Germany was united to France the French Kings made such use of that right that no man was made Bishop but by their nomination or at least their approbation for if the Clergy and the People chose a Bishop he was to be confirmed by the King In Bavaria which at that time had its own Kings sometimes the People and sometimes the King chose the Bishops but so as there was no need to have Bulls from Rome Pepin gave the Archbishoprick of Mentz to Boniface and that Prelate being grown old he obtained a Coadjutor from the same King without having recourse to the Pope P. I believe indeed that Pepin raised that Prelate to the Episcopal Dignity but some think he had obtained permission to do so from Pope Zachary G. The creatures of Rome would make us believe so but that is not probable since Pepins Predecessors had the same power and his Successors maintained it insomuch that Leo or rather Gregory IV. durst not make Colonus the Deacon Bishop of Reale without the permission of Lewis the Debonaire and the Fathers of the Synod held at Aix-la-Chapelle entreated the same Emperor to have a great care of giving good Pastors to the Churches Nay all the Popes from Leo VIII to Gregory VII were created or confirmed by the Emperors P. But have not the Emperors made not confirmed any Popes since that time G. Gregory VII took away from Kings and Emperors the power not only of creating and confirming the Popes but the Bishops also in the Countreys under their obedience and having excommunicated the Emperor Henry IV. he commanded Hugh Bishop of Die his Legat in France to procure a Decree to be made against Lay-men that would name persons unto Bishopricks The year after he forbad Church-men the receiving of any Bishoprick Abbey or other Benefice from the hand of a Lay-man though he were King or Emperor and within two years more he pronounced that the power of choosing Bishops and Pastors belonged to the Apostolick See Victor III. confirmed the Decrees of Gregory VII Vrban II. went further and at the Synod of Melfi Can. 8. and at that of Clermont Can. 15. and 16. forbad Clergy-men to take the Oath of Allegiance unto their Princes Those Decrees drew the Emperor Henry V. into the field who took Paschal II. prisoner and made him restore the Empire unto its first condition But when Popes had once tasted what a pleasure it was to be independent and to keep the Emperors under their authority they forced the Councils of Lateran and Vienna held in the year 1112. to declare Heretical the Collations of Benefices made by Lay-men The Emperors on the other side desiring to keep up their power named one Bishop and the Pope or the People another and the stronger party held the Bishoprick to the great scandal and prejudice of Christendom At length Paschal II. excommunicated Henry V. Calixtus II. confirmed the proceedings of his predecessors at the Council of Reims A. D. 1120. and Henry being both strucken by the Popes thunderbolts and wearied by the obstinacy of the Princes renounced his own right in the Diet held at Wormes A. D. 1122. In this manner the right which the Emperors had to choose Bishops passed from them to the Clergy and the People but a little after the Canons of Cathedral Churches assumed that right to themselves and keep it still P. I observe that many of the Councils wherein the Empire lost so much of its power and dignity were held in France G. Those Kings seeing that Germany had separated it self from France and kept the Imperial Majesty which their first Predecessors of the second Race had gotten were glad to see it humbled and for that cause they sided with the Popes when they would vex the Empire helping by that means to forge and hammer those chains of servitude which would have oppressed them and their Successors if the Popes had not met with Parliaments and a French people more inclined to obey their own Kings then to follow the orders of Rome P. Those Subjects who prefer the obedience they owe to their Soverains before any other consideration are highly to be
desire that he may obtain them the most Religious pray God to give him them the most couragious grumble and the most seditious losing all respect talk of putting another into his place The unfortunate life and death of Henry the Third King of France are unquestionable evidences of this truth P. How should one do to gain authority and reputation G. Authority depends upon reputation for the people believing that their Prince is valiant liberal and prudent doth readily obey his will and receive his Commands with respect honour and reverence Now to gain the reputation of a prudent Prince he should be very careful that his servants and Ministers be friends to the publick good affable modest and generous To be esteemed valiant it is sufficient that he shew a constant resolution to maintain his People in their ancient Splendor even at the expence of his life that adversity cast him not down nor prosperity make him insolent And to give a fairer lustre to his liberality he should take care that the little he bestowes arise not out of the oppression of his People If it be thus indeed then without being present every day at Councel without drawing his sword or giving much his Subjects his Friends and his Enemies too will esteem him valiant liberal and prudent and all of them fearing to offend him will pay him the duties of Subjects Friends and Neighbours P. A Prince that carries true piety in his heart and all Christian virtues in his soul needs not doubt but God will dissipate and disappoint all the evil designs of his mutinous Subjects and ambitious Neighbours But what Countrey-man was Pepin G. It is generally said that he was originally a German nay many think that Charlemagne his son was born near the Rhine John de Serres in his Inventary of the History of France Tom. 1. pag. 315. says he was born at Wormes crowned at Spire and buried at Aix and in pag. 324. of the same Tome he says he was buried at Aix where he was born How ever it be they were both of them Kings of France and the latter won so much renown by preserving the Church of Rome and defending the Pope who was unjustly assailed by Desiderius King of Lombardy that the Pope the Senate and people of Rome proclaimed him Emperor in the year of our Lord 800. P. I thought it was Pope Leo III. only that divided the Empire and gave the Western part with the name of Emperor to Charlemagne when he made him Advocate of the Holy See G. The Popes labour to perswade us so and would have it believed that the Crowns of Lombardy and Rome are essential to the Imperial dignity saying that the Emperor becomes King of Germany by the election which the Princes make of his person but acquires the name of Emperor Cesar and Augustus by the consecration and approbation which he receives from the Pope But this opinion of the Popes and of some writers their Votaries is ridiculous otherwise the Heathen Emperors would not have been lawful Emperors and those professing Christianity who resided at Constantinople since Constantine the Great until Constantine Paleologus nay those of Germany since Ferdinand the First till this very day would have been Usurpers having been Crowned neither at Milan nor Rome which cannot be said without the guilt of High Treason From whence you ought to conclude that the Emperors are so by the Grace of God without being any way beholden for it to the See of Rome P. Did the posterity of Charlemagne keep possession of the Empire and the Kingdom of France for any long time G. It held the Empire and France together not very long for the children of Lewis the Debonaire sharing their Fathers Estates that division weakned the House occasioned Wars between the brethren and was the cause that his Grandchildren lost the Empire in the year 912. and the Kingdom of France in the year 987. at which time Hugh Capet made Charles Duke of Lorraine Unckle by the Fathers side to Lewis the Fifth to be declared unworthy to succeed to the Crown of his Progenitors because he had done homage to Germany for his Dutchy So the race of Charles the Great to whom all Christendom doth owe so much fell totally from their greatness and made room in Germany for the Saxons and in France for the Capetians who set up the Empire and France again in their first lustre P. Was Hugh Capet a Frenchman G. He was born in France but a Saxon by extraction for Charlemagne coming to an agreement with Witikind of Saxony after a long and bloody War took one of Witikinds sons into France with him and did so much for him that his successors raised themselves with ease to the highest Offices of State and at length Hugh Capet put the Crown upon his own head and transmitted it to his descendents who enjoy it still with more happiness and authority then their predecessors did P. I learn by what you tell me that all the Kings who have reigned in France since Pharamond came out of Germany and I am glad to understand so much because it is an honor for our Nation to have given Kings unto so considerable a part of Europe But methinks this discourse draws us much off of our mark and being to speak of Languages and of the place where they should be learnt we allow that subject the least share of our thoughts G. It is true indeed that we make long digressions but they bring us nearer to the end we aim at for the best way to learn Languages is to speak and discourse with those that have the reputation of speaking well P. Do not all Frenchmen and Italians speak their own native Language well G. There are Provinces in France and Italy where you meet with few persons that speak French or Italian purely and never a one where the vulgar hath not some terms out of use and rejected by the learned So that those who travel to learn languages should take care to make their stay in places where the common people have the best accent and the least barbarous phrases P. Where should Italian be learnt G. You know that the inundation of people who to show the Romans that they were not invincible came at several times out of Gaul and Germany so corrupted the Latine in Italy that it degenerated into a language exceedingly mingled Since that time the great wits as Petrarch Boccace Ariosto Tasso Bembo and many others have so cultivated it that their writings do in no wise give place to the elegancy of the Greeks and Latines Now as Cities are some more or less ingenious then others the inhabitants of Sienna have surpassed them all in the sweetness and politeness of the Italian tongue and the Court of Rome which is composed of all the rest hath brought it to its perfection P. That being so I will stay longer at Sienna and Rome then in other places G. So I advise you and
have voice and seat in the Assemblies G. All the Estates of the Empire who are the Electors the Princes the Prelates the Counts the Barons and the Imperial Cities And besides the place and voice they have in general and particular Assemblies they have also a certain right of Regality and the priviledge of the Austregues that is a right not to be convented or brought before any but peculiar Judges P. I thought that the Emperor alone had the right of Regality that this right and Majesty were one and the same thing and that but few Counts and Barons had place and voice in the Assemblies G. By the Counts and Barons which I told you had seat and suffrage in the Assemblies you should understand those that are Estates of the Empire and abstract all others even those Lords to whom the Emperor gives the title of Prince in his Hereditary Countreys who are in no small number the abuse being grown to that height that few or none are content with the title of Gentleman As to the other part of your supposition you should take notice that Soverainty and Regalities are different things Soverainty is that which essentially constitute the Emperor that is which makes him to be Emperor and Regalities are the Adjuncts of Soverainty and the Rights which flow from it as rivulets from their spring P. I beseech you explain your self a little more G. For the better understanding of what I have even now said you must note that the word Regality is diversly taken to wit 1. for great Lordships held in Fee of the Crown 2. for Churches extraordinarily rich 3. for the right of giving great Benefices 4. for the Royal Ensigns which are carried before Kings and put upon their heads and into their hands and 5. for the Rights which have been given to Emperors for marks of a Soverain eminence Regalities may be also distinguished into the greater and the lesser The greater are Regalities of Dignity which relate to the Emperor person the lesser are Regalities of Vtility which regard his Treasure The great one are incommunicable the lesser are communicable and communicated to Princes Lords and Cities to one more to another less according to the good pleasure of the Emperors P. I do not yet fully understand which be the Regalities of Dignity I pray speak a little more at large of them G. The Regalities of Dignity are the immense power which the Emperor hath to give the title of King Elector Archduke Duke c. to make Laws to administer Justice and other such like things P. I think the Emperor hath communicated the right of administring Justice unto the Imperial Chambers of his Court and of Spire G. That is true but the power of the Chambers is no argument why the Emperor alone should not be said to have the Soverain Right of administring Justice For the Judge of those Chambers bears the Imperial Sceptre to show that he exercises the Emperors jurisdiction there all judgements are pronounced there in his Majesties name and sealed with his Arms Which makes it clear that all is done by his authority and in his name P. Was Justice always administred by the Soverain Chambers which his Majesty hath established the one in his Court and the other at Spire G. The Chamber of Justice or Parliament of the Empire was ambulatory till the time of Maximilian I. who taking pity of the parties that were necessitated to follow the Court and seek for Justice there at great expenses at the request of Berchtold Count of Henneberg who was then Elector of Mentz established a Sedentary Chamber at Wormes in the year 1495. from whence it was soon after removed to Spire but cannot be withdrawn from that place without the consent of all the Estates P. Doubtless the Emperor hath given an extraordinary jurisdiction to that Chamber for I have heard say that it hath concurrence of jurisdiction with his Majesty G. The Chamber of Spire can have no concurrent jurisdiction with the Emperor unless it be that his Majesty may concur with himself for the jurisdiction of the Chamber is nothing else but the Emperors jurisdiction Besides the Emperor hath not established the Chamber to concur with him but to administer Justice in his name For in transferring thither all the jurisdiction universally for so much as concerns Civil causes he hath ordered that nothing shall be dispatched but in his name and under his Seal Whereby it is easie to judge that there is a dependence and not a concurrence of the Chamber of Spire with the Emperor who also causeth the Assessors to be punished when they transgress and swerve from their duty P. Seeing the Emperor hath transmitted all his jurisdiction unto that Chamber certainly it passeth judgement upon all things without appeal G. Except Ecclesiastical and Spiritual matters as the crimes of Heresie Adultery and other such like the cognizance whereof belongs to the Church that Chamber Judges finally and absolutely of every thing So that an appeal cannot be made unto the Emperor and much less to the Pope even in a cause of a pious nature And there is a Decree to be seen of the 20. February 1512. whereby one that appealed to the Pope was fined a hundred Marks of Gold But this Chamber takes no knowledge in the first instance but of the causes which concern some Immediate person that is immediately depending upon the Emperor P. Are all Immediate persons Estates of the Empire G. The Gentlemen of Swaben Franconia the Rhine and the lower Alsatia are not Estates of the Empire though they be immediately subject to the Emperor P. Let us begin to speak of the Estates of the Empire and tell me if you please what was the original of the House of Austria how long it hath worn the Imperial Crown into how many branches it is divided by what means it became so potent and what are its priviledges G. You ask too many things at once yet I will answer them But that we may avoid confusion I will speak severally of that which you have proposed conjunctly And as to your first question I say that flatterers think they can never raise the beginning of this Most August House high enough unless they fetch it from the Trojan horse and tracing the Fables of the old Romans invent a fine Genealogy from near 500. years before the birth of Jesus Christ Others would have it to descend from Charlemagne in a direct masculine line The most common opinion is that the Counts of Habspourg who wear the Imperial Crown at this present are a branch of the Dukes of Zeringuen from whom also the Marquisses of Baden are descended and the Dukes of Teck whose lands are passed by marriage into the House of Wirtemberg P. That which you say is not out of controversie for a modern Author affirms confidently that the Archdukes of Austria and the Kings of France come both out of one and the same stock But because we desire
Into the greatest part of Regular Orders they admit Gentlemen that have attained to the age of 18. years and consequently before they have given any proof of their merit and they are degraded for murders basely committed by lying in ambush or other crimes unworthy of such persons But Kings admit none into their Orders but those that have performed good and considerable services and for that cause a man is oftentimes well in years before he can obtain that honour of which also he cannot be deprived but for High Treason Divine or Humane or for notorious cowardize as having run away from his Colours and forsaken his Chief P. If it be so there is less honour in being admitted into a Regular then into a Secular Order G. I do really think so because for the obtaining of the latter it is requisite that a man joyn his own vertue unto that of his Ancestors And the Order which makes him that is admitted into it Companion of a Soverain and familiar with his King hath doubtless something more eminent in it then that which only makes him brother and Companion of certain Gentlemen P. I would willingly know why so many Orders of Knighthood have been instituted G. Necessity was the first and principal cause of all those Orders The Regulars began after Godfrey of Boullion had taken Ierusalem when some valiant Gentlemen having voluntarily undertaken the defence of the oppressed the maintenance of Hospitals the care of Pilgrims and the securing of the ways Popes gave them priviledges and bestowed honours upon them to draw on others to the same profession Which is honourable to the Church of Rome as well for the zeal which Catholiques show in visiting the Holy places as because all the Nobility also that embraces a Rule becomes subject to the Pope P. Had Kings the same design G. Conquerors made Souldiers willing to follow them by sharing the fruit of their Conquests with them and when their Successors had not estate enough to reward all the glorious actions and eminent services which Gentlemen did for them being perswaded that a man of courage values nothing comparably to honours which distinguish him from other men they invented those Orders which without exhausting their Treasure would gain them the Flower of their Subjects and enflame all others with an extreme desire to make themselves worthy of the same honour I think it was for that reason that anciently they created Knights just before the Battel to make them engage more resolutely or presently after it to recompense those that had the greatest hand in the victory P. I would know whether there be many Knights in Germany G. There be Knights of four sorts who ought to be Princes Lords or Gentlemen The Emperor dubs some by touching them lightly upon the shoulder with a naked sword and saying to them Esto miles Dei Sancti Stephani Be a Souldier of God and of St. Stephen and those wear no Collar or other mark to distinguish them from other Gentlemen The Kings of Spain England and Denmark do also send their Order to such Lords as they set most value upon The first wear the Golden Fleece the second the Garter and the third the Elephant enamelled with white and enchased with a Cross of five great Diamonds All the other Knights are of the Military Orders of Prussia or Malta The former have the Black Cross and are named Teutoniques the latter wear a white one and are called Knights Hospitallers of St. Iohn of Ierusalem Heretofore all of the last Order were Catholiques but there are some of them now that are not so and possess the Commanderies which the Protestant Princes have not incorporated into their Demesnes But if you happen to see any German Suisse or Hollander wearing the Collar of the Order of St. Michael you may take notice that the most Christian King sometimes confers the honour of that Order upon those that have done him some acceptable service P. Do all Emperors and Kings of the Romans make Knights G. If they do not at least they may all do so And at the Coronation of Charles V. there was such an abuse that all those that would have that honour received it although they were not Gentlemen In our days it hath not been so abused For when the last Ferdinand was crowned at Ratisbon he created 28. Knights the greatest part of them very illustrious both by their birth and merit P. Now I see what difference there is between a Knight and a Cavalier I pray discourse something of the Nobility G. There are Countreys in Europe where the Nobility is distinguished into Princes Lords and Gentlemen who all together make one part of the State and are the Kings right arm the support of his Crown and the prop of his authority It is not so in Germany where the Princes nay the poorest Lords would take it for an affront to be called Gentlemen Who as we have seen before are absolutely separated from the Body of the Nobility and have their interest apart P. I know already that the Princes are Estates of the Empire and have no communion with the Nobility But I would willingly know whether all the Gentlemen of Germany make one Body whether they be equal in priviledges and whether they mutually assist one another in their necessities G. The Nobility of Germany is of two sorts One Immediate acknowledging none but the Emperor the other Mediate that acknowledges the Emperor as Head of the Empire yet without being exempt from the jurisdiction of another Prince This latter hath not so much liberty as the former but is for all that excellent in its degree there being never a Gentleman in Germany that doth not prefer a poor Gentlewoman before a rich Burgers daughter and wonders at the mixture of different qualities used in other places But this Body being united only by the ligaments of name and condition there is little or no help to be expected from one to another P. Is the Nobility that depends upon Princes equally priviledged through all the Empire G. Nobility being a quality acquired by vertuous actions and eminent services which some Houses have performed to the Prince and State it is impossible but that there should be some Houses more Noble and better priviledged then others And although fortune should have more influence then merit upon the dispensing of those qualities yet the same judgement were still to be made because Soverains are subject to their passions rewarding more bountifully and raising higher some of their servants then others It happens also that one Prince hath occasion to make use of his Nobility more often then another and receiving more considerable services from them he doth also recompense them with greater and more signal benefits P. There is no doubt but merit or favour hath made the difference which is found between those Houses that hold in Fee of a particular Prince But I am perswaded that all the Nobility immediately subject