glorious commendation For it is well knowne that the most of them are poore mens children and neuer had patrimonie able to maintaine themselues much lesse able to relieue the necessities of others Gent. I euer thought it to be a fiction Pr. Let this passe and consider by the premisses whether we haue not good cause to exclaime against the Iesuits As for their report of our disobedience it is reproued before and for our vnmortified passions I will not much stand with them but thinke that neither ours nor theirs are not so mortified I as could wish Now by this which we haue alreadie said it is apparent ynough that they haue but ouermuch dealing in the affaires of our secular Cleargie and for their entermedling in state matters it is needlesse that any accuse them or go about to proue it seeing their owne publicke actions giue assured testimonie against them If they would denie it Fa. P. owne handie worke is extant the booke of succession wherein vnder the counterfeit name of Robert Doleman hee rippeth vp the titles of all competitors to the crowne of England disgraceth and weakeneth in what hee may the claimes of some extolleth and highly aduaunceth others renuing the mortall dissentions betweene the families of Yorke and Lancaster laying perillous grounds for most cruell workes and bloudshead in time to come and drawing all to some particular person whome hee affecteth aboue the rest VVe will not speake of his bitter and disgracefull libels against the deceased L. Treasurer and L. of Leicester nor of his letters and Fa. Creswels intercepted as they were sent into the realme and yet in the Counsels hands for a testimony against him touching inuasions and solliciting of men by these vaine hopes to be in a readinesse against his day and I know not what daungerous follies besides But touch in few words some of his other actions that you may see whether he deale in state matters or no. Did hee not earnestly moue our young students in Spaine to set their hands to a schedule that they would accept the Ladie Infanta for Queen of England after the decease of her Majestie that now is yea and finding them altogether vnwilling to intermeddle with those greatest affaires belonging nothing vnto them and most hurtfull to both their cause and persons vsed he not this cunning shift to draw on the innocent and simple youths to pretend forsooth to them of Valladolid that the students in Seuill had done it already no remedie then but they must follow and hauing thus craftily gotten their names hee shewed them to the students of Seuill for an example of their fact and forwardnesse which he required them to imitate that would bee well taken that they all did thus shew themselues desirous of the L. Infanta for their Queen Some more stout and better experienced than the rest withstood the daungerous attempts and would not yeeld but they felt Fa. P. heauy hand vpon them euer after VVas it not his vsuall persuasion to our students when he would haue them to concurre with him in matters of state That by the laws of England they were alreadie traitors for their religion then for tampering with him about any other the greatest affaires they could be no more Goe to then beeing once ouer shoes be ouer boots also step in as farre as you can and spare not VVhen hee had printed his booke of Succession and was come to Rome would hee not haue it publickely read in the Refectorie at such times as the students minds customarily were fed with spirituall lectures VVhich vaine-glorious and prophane desire when some of the schollers resisted because they thought it very inconuenient and hurtfull vnto them to be acquainted with his plots in princes titles and affaires the good Fa. was exceeding wroth with them and they could neuer after haue his fauourable countenance VVas it not Fa. Pa. and Fa. Creighton Iesuits that with such vehemencie bitternesse contended each against other in Spain about disposing of the kingdome and crown of England Fa. Par. striuing to bring all to the Ladie Infanta and Fa. Creighton to his king of Scotland in which controuersie Fa. Parsons preuailed in that place and frustrated and defeated all the desires plots which his brother Iesuit had laied in his suits VVere they not Iesuits which laied the plot with the late deceased duke of Parma for surprising or stealing away the Ladie Arbella and sending her into Flaunders VVho employed the messenger into England about that affaire but Fa. Holt Iesuit VVho but the same Iesuit was consenting with Sir William Stanley to the sending in of Richard Hesket for solliciting Ferdinando the late Earle of Darbie to rise against her Majestie and to claime the crowne VVas it not the same Iesuit that entertained Yorke and Yong in the plot of firing her Majesties store-houses That set on worke M. Francis Dickonson and others to persuade watermen to flie with ships and all into the seruice of the Spaniard VVho but Iesuits feed the world dayly with fresh newes expectation of warres alteration of the State by forrainers But what is this peculiar only to our English Iesuits or haue not the Scottish fathers also in like manner bestirred themselues in that kingdome VVhereupon were the three Catholicke Earls Anguis Arroll and Huntley conuicted of high treason by acte of Parlement about eight yeares agoe to the confiscation of their liuelihoods and their expulsion out of the kingdome if not vpon certaine plots layde them by father Creighton father Gordon and vpon hopes giuen them of succours from Spaine VVhy was the lard of Fentry executed but by reason of the same designs imparted to him by Fa. R◠Abercromie a Iesuit was it not the principall cause of father Iam. Gordions trauaile to Rome about eyght yeares ago to sollicit the Pope and other princes to assist the king of Scots if hee would enterprise any thing either against England or in his own country in which simple and indiscreet action of his hee both deceiued the Pope pretēding great matters to be in hand which were not was the quite ouerthrower of those three earls in their present estates These politicke courses and this busie and dangerous entermedling by the Scottish Iesuits in Scotland grew odious euen to the best there and ruinated thereby the good estates of many without hope of reaping benefit in any time to come And yet forsooth the Iesuits are falsly slaundered when they are sayd to deale in state matters I know there be some of them which mislike these courses and either through their owne vertuous disposition or for respect of their owne quiet safetie or disabilitie or finally for their studie or a religious life shun in what they can al this kind of profane intermedling yet the vertuous and temperat demeanour of these can no more justifie nor excuse the dangerous stickling of their fellowes than the presumptions of these busie heads can blemish or deface their vertuous
businesse causeth such admirable alteration that admit heretofore one had been reputed and shunned as a bad companion or holden for a daungerous spie and traitor by our aduersaries and their fauorites admit hee were such a one as had publickely renounced his Catholicke religion and in open court renied the Pope and authoritie of the sea Apostolicke admit hee were such a one as by his whole life had giuen monstrance of Atheisme yet his exquisit diligence his intemperate stickling his furious zeale in blazing euery where our vndeserued infamies graceth him afresh and maketh him worthy the name of a good fellow and to be reckoned by our brethren persecutors in the rank of a reasonable honest man thogh perhaps this good conceit fame must stand no longer than this peece of their vilest seruice shall endure Your selfe good Sir with all your Catholicke neighbors can witnesse with vs how hetherto wee haue concealed from you and kept secret all the matter of these contentions being most vnwilling and in troth very scrupulous though in our own iust defence to impart vnto you any little portion of the cause or controuersie the notice whereof might certainely trouble your minds and breed you scandale but could not benefit you in the smallest degree Neither the matter only was thus carefully kept from you but the parties also with whome wee had this lamentable conflict least vpon the long triall you haue had of our painefull trauels and sincere conuersation among you nothing agreeable to these slanders you might take the smallest aversion or any hard conceit against the persons of our aduersaries that beare the name of religious men and Catholicke priests But now that you are already made acquainted with this contention and with the parties also and this not by vs but by the Iesuites the Arch-priest and the double industrie of their Agents and that againe contrary to the very law of God and Nature they heape vpon vs dayly new infamies before our cause be heard or by any forme of iust triall and proceeding we bee found guiltie and convicted in the least crime of hundreds wherewith they vnconscionably charge vs. It is needfull that we repell so notable iniuries that wee stand in orderly defence of our good names and innocencie and that we let you know the truth of our cause to the end that this present disturbance of your peace and the greeuous scandale giuen throughout the realme by these contentions may redound to them or vs as either they or we shall bee found by iust examination and indifferent iudgement to haue been the authors and causers thereof And truly Sir wee would haue been vnwilling and very loath to haue defended our owne good names in any publicke manner because we could not possibly doe it without touching the imperfections of our owne deare brethren which in these hard times of persecution and in this lamentable affliction of our Church for the Catholicke faith we earnestly desire to spare and not to touch though with any reasonable losse to vs if our brethren would haue taken vp themselues in any time or haue kept any measure in afflicting vs. But you see our silence hath been so long our patience so great that thereby we haue not onely suffered much detriment in our credits and estimation throughout the realme but moreouer we haue lost many friends which through ignorance of our cause the violencie of religious men and seminarie priests with their adherents noted to run against vs are fallen from vs. This patience of ours also hath made which is the worst our aduersaries more audacious and violent in their vniust courses In all which proceedings of theirs we could neuer hope for stay or stint till they had vtterly ouerwhelmed our good names vnlesse in time we should make some lawfull resistance and encounter which though perhaps we haue vndertaken it too late yet we doubt not but in time we shall recouer some part of our losses and at the least in the iudgements of honest vertuous and indifferent persons bee freed from the infamies after they shall haue once examined and aduisedly waighed the cause on both sides without partiall and blinding affections In this onely our aduersaries haue the aduauntage of vs that they can easily couer the wrongs they doe vs with a plausible cloake and name of their religion and authoritie and with inuectiues against vs as against enemies to their order and disobedient to our owne superiours which two bad dispositions if thorow their slaunders they be once beleeued or conceiued to raigne in vs they must procure of necessitie vnto vs the auersions and hatred of all Catholicke people and honest natures VVe be Catholicke priests and albeit our carriage in Gods worke hath beene heretofore neuer so good and irreprehensible yet the very bare name or coat of religion and the very remembrance of authoritie swaieth much in mens opinions to the discredite of any that contend with religious persons and superiours although their cause bee neuer so iust and the actions of the religious or superiours bee most iniurious But yet who is he that experienced but a little in the affairs of both former and present ages can bee ignorant that the religious by too much seeking themselues may swarue from the perfection of charitie which they professe to run at and that men placed in authoritie may also transgresse the lawes of equitie in the execution of their office and then they are accustomed in the worst sort to oppresse their subiects when they most pretend iustice and in strongest manner sound forth the cries of their authoritie for better colouring therby their vniust violence And surely the abuse of authoritie is not to be feared nor suspected more at any time than when in controuersies refusing or hindering all iust all indifferent all ordinary triall by laws or comprimise they leane wholly to their authoritie and striue alone by it to ouerbeare and subdue their subiects And in like maner also the religious are then to be doubted most of sincere dealing when only by a vaine-glorious conceit or vaunt of their religious estate and perfection they iustifie themselues before the world and would beare out all they doe against their neighbours Thus farre in part we talked besides the answeres I made to euery particular report you told me of which I will here set downe and to auoid the tedious repetition of quoth you quoth I will deliuer the same vnder the names wee haue by our severall callings both of vs true Catholickes I a secular priest and you a VVor. lay Gentleman VVe began and did proceed as followeth Gent. The Iesuites with the Arch-priest and all their followers report that you and your adherents were schismatickes and rebellious to the sea Apostolicke and that still you are disobedient persons to lawfull authoritie and your superiours placed ouer you Pr. They report thus indeed but vnlesse they can prooue vs guiltie of these crimes their reports ought by all good
men to bee iudged no other than meere calumnies and vntrue slanders and the reporters to deserue the like names Gent. I thinke so to but it is to be supposed that men of their state and profession would neuer touch any Catholicke priest with these disgracefull tearms vnlesse they could manifestly proue him to be guilty of the crimes much lesse would they neuer bring these foulest infamies vpon so many Priests before they certainely know you guiltie thereof Pr. If we looke what men of their place and vocation ought to doe or againe what good opinion is due vnto them in regard of their state I also am of your mind we should suppose the best of them For neither religious men nor a priest chosen to bee superiour ouer his brethren nor such as are directed and guided by them should work the infamie of Catholicke priests vpon any uncertainetie or faigned crime But if on the other side you enter into the controuersie betweene them and vs and examine truly and sincerely waigh what we haue done and what they report you shall find our actions much contrary to their slaunders and no cause to thinke all they say to be Gospell but you will iudge it necessary rather to feare the worst than to suppose the best of them Let vs see then how these religious men with the Arch-priest and their favourites prooue vs to be schismatickes disobedient and rebellious obiect for them I pray you what you haue heard them alledge against vs. Gen. VVith a good will this the rather because as I should greatly dislike you if you were guilty of these sinnes so againe much should I ioy in you if you be free They say you were schismaticks because you refused for a whole yeares space to accept of the authority instituted by the Pope and to submit your selues to maister Blackwell ordained Arch-priest ouer you And as in that refusall you were schismaticks disobedient and rebellious at the first so are ye now guiltie of great disobedience to your Arch-priest for not obseruing his degrees and precepts Pr. Here be two things our forbearing to accept of the new authoritie or to submit our selues to the Archpriest our disobeying the Archp. decrees and precepts Touching the first the Iesuites and Archp. haue so vehemently thirsted our disgrace and infamie that for our delay they censure vs to be schismatickes and as such vile persons to be vsed and shunned of all Catholickes And albeit the decision of this question belonged nothing at all to them but was to be had from the see Apostolicke and supreme pastor of Gods church before whose sentence pronounced no man was to be condemned of so foule a fault or punished for the same with publick infamie and the losse of his good name yet could not the good men so long containe themselues nor represse the violence of their spirit as to spare our credites and to forbeare the subuersion of our honest fame till they had informed his Hol. of the case and had receiued a firme sentence from him what he iudged of the case and how he would haue them to proceed against vs. This temperance this modestie this charitie they would not vse but taking hold of our delay and themselues iudging it as a fit occasion and a cause sufficient ynough whereby they might worke our disgrace and ignominie they prevented the see-Apostolicke and gaue sentence of vs that wee were Schismatickes And that this rash and vncharitable iudgement of theirs might run with more credite euery where they set on work one of their principall men Father Thomas Lister Doctor of Diuinitie to write a Treatise against vs wherein he went about to proue vs to be schismatickes in the highest degree Now this rude and infamous libell as void of learning as it swarued from truth and modestie being once divulged it was approoued by Fa. Garnet their Prouinciall and by the Archp. and forthwith confirmed by the practise of them and their adherents we and our people were borne downe with slaunders shunned as you know in all conuersation and the infamie was currant euery where Thus then they proued vs to be schismatickes by a ridiculous pamphlet and by the practise of their owne erronious opinion Gent. Had they no better proofes than these nor surer grounds for the matter before they spread abroad so greeuous an infamie against you and put it in practise in the sight of the world as wee see they did Pr. No other truly Gen. It seemeth to haue been very great presumption for a company of priuate religious men and an Archpriest whose authoritie also was as yet vncertaine to take vpon them the office of the supreame and Apostolicke Bishop and vpon their owne heads to condemne you for schismatickes And againe it seemeth no lesse vncharitable audacitie that not expecting his Ho. sentence themselues would put in execution their owne opinion to your extreame infamie and the scandale of our whole Nation Pr. Let it seeme to haue ben or be it what it shall this they did and thus they dealt with vs. Gent. But I heare notwithstanding all their heat then and the heapes of iniuries they cast vpon you by this slaunder of schisme that both the Iesuits and Archp. in England and also Fa. Parson in Rome are now halfe ashamed of the matter and say it was but one priuate mans opinion and that hereby they neuer defamed you to be schismatickes Pr. I heare also that now when they perceiue the matter is like to come to triall before the highest Tribunall on earth and to be made knowne vnto the Christian world how they haue iniuried vs they would step backe againe and with any smooth and cunning shift make men beleeue they had not so foulely erred and broken the bonds of all Christian charitie But the case is cleare ynough their actions were manifest to all our nation and will convince them of too intollerable impudencie if they denie that which all men know them to haue done VVee haue also their owne hands to testifie against them but in such men if the testimonie of their owne consciences will not suffice to make thē confesse a truth though it be to their own temporall confusion especially when their fact is knowne to a whole nation as this is they may keepe themselues content with the bare name of Religion and for humilitie for mortification for charitie for sinceritie and true simplicitie let them not boast themselues aboue the meanest Christians nor glorie in these vertues at all And if the Archp. say or write as I heare he doth that hee neuer called vs schismatickes I cannot but lament his case considering we haue his own letters and decrees to the contrary whereby he doth charge vs with that crime and forbiddeth vs in any sort to defend our good names not we but they shall reprove him And for both the Iesuits and him if they be now come to this That it was but a priuat mans opinion
refusing to obey his decrees of what qualitie soeuer they shall be we must return vpon themselues the same reproch but in a higher degree for contending with their Fa. Generall in any sort or for any cause Or if againe for credite of their societie they list to excuse their brethren and free them from disobedience in that contention because in many cases the subjects may resist their Superiours will or commaundement if they doe this for loue to their owne credite wee may entreat them for Christian charities sake to excuse our fact or to cleare vs of this horrible crime and slaunder of disobedience for our refusing to obey the Archp. in his decrees opposit to the lawes of nature and holy church Gent. It were good reason they should so doe in this matter of his vnjust decrees But how can you excuse your selues from disobedience when you vse your faculties after hee hath depriued you of them and yee celebrate notwithstanding he hath suspended you Doe you not acknowledge him to haue jurisdiction ouer you in these cases Priest Yes we doe but yet in such wise prescribed vnto him and limitted as if hee attempt to doe any thing beyond his commission it is of no effect nor validitie Gent. This must needs bee true for it were an vnreasonable and disorderly authoritie if it left all at his libertie especially to inflict punishments at his pleasure without more Priest His authoritie is to punish priests for crimes committed either by suspending the vse of their faculties or by depriuing them altogether as for suspending from the aulter we thinke hee wanteth authoritie But where there is no crime committed where no crime is proued against a priest nor he manifestly convicted thereof the Archp. hath no authoritie in any sort to punish him Now touching our case he hath suspended some others he hath quite bereaued of their faculties but for what crimes hath he done it and in what manner Hee hath not conuented nor cōvicted any of our priests of those faults which he and the Iesuits haue faigned against them without proofe of the crime without hearing the accused without citing them to aunswere vpon meere fictions and vncharitable surmises of his owne and theirs he hath proceeded against some as men guiltie of schisme rebellion enormious disobedience to the See Apostolicke and his owne authoritie against others for defending their good name in this slander against others for asking satisfaction others he afflicteth for setting their hand to the appeale without his licence others for persuading both parts to send two priests to Rome quietly with the state of the controuersie that so it might be ended by his Holinesse others for that they will not recall their appeale and yeeld to his opinion no lesse injurious to them than erronious in diuinitie and learning yea if any defend the censure of the Vniuersitie of Paris hee also tasteth of his whip Gent. These proceedings are the most disorderly and injust that euer I haue heard Priest They are no better than I tell you Gent. Surely it were impietie to thinke that his Ho. would giue him authoritie to afflict and punish innocent priests in this manner Priest So it were And therfore proceeding against vs without authoritie all his suspentions and depriuations are of no valliditie but to be contemned as friuolous proceeding from an vncharitable disposition in him and the Iesuits his counsellors Thus you see that in truth we are not justly to be touched with any note of schism rebellion or disobedience against either the See Apostolicke or the Arch-priest and that these reports are manifest calumnies and vntrue slaunders purposely deuised by our emulous aduersaries to delude mens eyes and to stirre vp the world against vs to our discredite Now if you be satisfied in these points of schisme rebellion and disobedience let vs goe to another report Gent. For these things mee thinke you haue said sufficiently and I know not what to reply more than I haue done Pr. VVell go to then what is the next slaunder The second Slaunder Gent. They giue it out all ouer that you be daungerous men because you are extraordinarily fauoured by the priuie Counsell and State by whom they say you are maintained and diuers of you haue free accsse and familiaritie with them and the Bishop of London M. Waid and others which are great presumptions that you be scarse honest men or to bee trusted by Catholickes For say they these with whom you deale and of whom you find these singular fauours are professed aduersaries to Gods holy Church and to all Catholickes and therefore it cannot but yeeld probable and very pregnant suspition of bad dealing and of treason to the common cause that you onely should haue friendly entertainment conference and accesse at your pleasures Pr. They be our aduersaries no maruell then if they speake the worst of vs they can and vpon their euill affection take hold of every occasion to surmise and report the euill we neuer did nor thought You see how vpon their own priuat opinion only against all right and conscionable proceeding where many as learned and judiciall as they held the contrarie they condemned and defamed vs of schisme rebellion and disobedience all Diuines and Canonists reproue their fact and all posteritie will admire their impudencie their want of charitie or skill or both and in the rest also their zeale spurneth them forward to deuise and vomit out any thing that may defile our credites Indeed their slaunders carie a great shew of probabilitie because they are in an odious matter and seeme to proceed from an honest mind zealous and sincere but let the particulars bee once discussed and the vizard of deceit taken away and then foorthwith the surmise and report will appeare in it owne likenesse to be a meere calumnie and vntrue slaunder First therefore where they say that we bee men of daunger it is the slaunder of an enemie deseruing no more credite than their reason is of force to proue VVhat is their reason then Because we are singularly fauored by the priuie Counsell and state Admit it bee so is this sufficient to prooue vs daungerous If it be not then is it a pernitious calumnie to account vs daungerous for a cause which is not sufficient to conuince vs to be daungerous If it be then must it follow that not only some of themselues but many also of their best lay friends in England haue beene and are in the same predicament with vs. Had not Fa. Hawood Iesuit such extraordinary fauour of the lord of Leicester that besides the secret plottings conferences which were betweene them before the Iesuits apprehension when the Father was in durance in the tower he only had there more libertie and found more friendly vsage than all the priests in the other prisons throughout England yea when many Catholicke priests were closely shut vp rigorously vsed and cruelly executed Fa. Hawood lay at ease and safetie in the
tower and at the time of his banishment all men reported him to haue found singular fauours aboue the rest touching his prouision This Fa. also had many conferences with Sir Christopher Hatton and receiued fauours of him before hee was apprehended VVhat should we say hereupon that Fa. Hawood was a daungerous Iesuit Or rather that these extraordinarie fauours are not sufficient to proue a Iesuit or a priest to be daungerous Father Bosgraue another Iesuit found not he also extraordinarie fauours in prison and banishment whiles many a good seminarie priest was straightly handled put to death I hope we may truly say That neither master Bluet nor master Clarke nor any other of vs whom the Iesuits and Archp. would discredite by accesse and familiaritie with the magistrats haue as yet condescended so farre vnto them as that Fa. Hawood did and yet was he not defamed thereby to be a dangerous man VVe let passe the two ancient and famous Iesuits Fa. Langdale and another either of which had remained in the societie aboue twentie years before their Apostacie which argueth that al Iesuits be not Saints before they breake out of their order wee let these passe I say and come to Fa. Iohn Gerard who is said to haue found more fauourable entreatie by our common aduersary during the time of his indurance than any of our priests imprisoned in those time or than those which now they so much exclaim against he is said to haue ben absent from his prison and this by license 2 3 4. or mo nights and dayes together Gent. Thus much I also haue heard of him that hee had more fauour and libertie than all his fellow prisoners besides But this was procured as I heard by great bribes for he had alwayes greater store of money than all the rest Pr. I condemne not the man nor thinke him dangerous for so doing He found fauor among our enemies to haue libertie if he be to be excused or not to be judged daungerous because he procured it by his money then to find extraordinary fauour among the heretickes is no true cause why a Iesuit or a Priest should be thought daungerous And why should not our priests in this case be as free from slander and infamie if they can procure to themselues by other honest meanes without money the same or more libertie as a Iesuit that bought it with his mony I will not now rehearse what some magistrats in high place haue said of secret meetings conferences between some of the priuie counsell some Iesuits nor what some of the Iesuits entirest fauourits haue whispered to their friends concerning straunge plots and deuises for no trifles I wisse betweene the Iesuits some of high roome and dignitie in the State Be it true as they reported or be it false as spoken but for a brag to win the Iesuits mo friends and credit as men able to dispose of all it much forceth not all finally commeth to this issue That we be not daungerous men because we receiue extraordinary fauor of the state For if they also had conference and withall hold this principle themselues also should be dangerous men with vs which they will not graunt if they had not yet in their conceits and by these reports that they had when the case is their owne they thinke it no sufficient cause to account them daungerous for finding fauours and conferring with the priuie Counsell and so they acquit vs also of the same slaunder For there can bee shewed no disparitie nor reason why this may not be as free for a Catholicke priest as for a Iesuit Gent. You seeme to conclude this rightly vnlesse they wil say that their dealing with the priuie Counsell or the fauors they find of the State cannot bring them into suspition or obloquie to bee daungerous men as it must doe priests because they are religious mortified men fast and sure from corrupting or deprauing by the magistrates as priests bee not which are passionate men looser of life and more inconstant and therefore this daunger is more to be feared in them and lesse in the Iesuits Pr. It may well be that they carry no worse conceit of themselues nor better of vs than this and I dare vndertake for them that howsoeuer their charitie extendeth to vs their owne good word shall neuer be wanting to themselues But these chimericall conceits and fictions do not alter the nature of the thing we speake of And for seminarie priests in England it is manifest that they haue laboured in Christs vineyard with no lesse fruit consummated their courses in prisons and death with no lesse courage and zeale than any Iesuit hath done hetherto yea euen such priests as these perfect Iesuits reputed to bee most imperfect and with whom they haue had great contentions in the colledges beyond haue matched them in the performance of all Christian duties whē the triall was made by enduring prisons miseries and death But as the huswiues prouerbe goeth All these fathers geese must be swans They be Iesuits ergo peerelesse Gent. I perceiue you but what were you about to say of their friends Pr. No more but this that by slaundering vs to be dangerous men by reason of some fauors we are said to find at the priuie counsels hands they bring the same slaunder vpon their best friends Gent. How may this follow Priest Marry thus who knoweth not that diuers of the principall Catholickes in England for temporall estate are their best friends And who is ignorant againe that they haue found and receiue still very extraordinarie and singular fauours from sundry of the priuie Counsell such as no other Catholickes in England besides themselues can haue If these great ones be not daungerous persons by reason of their extraordinarie fauours why should they thinke vs and our friends to be if at any time wee reape the benefite Gent. I know no reason why they should vnlesse perhaps the Iesuits affection and conceit of the perfection of all such as they deale with make this difference where in truth there is none But yet they say that some of you goe voluntarily to the Bishop of London and haue dayly conferences with him and other our aduersaries which thing is very suspitious and hath not beene vsed by any Iesuite or any of their side Priest Indeed the Iesuits carry a higher conceit of themselues than they doe of our priests the same must others also carry of them how small ground or cause soeuer there be thereof or else farewell friendship and you are their aduersarie Correspondent also hereunto is the opinion and estimation which the Iesuits and their people haue of such every where as depend vpon them and haue yeelded themselues into their guidance in respect of all such Catholicks as deale onely with the seminarie priests For onely this dependance on them is cause ynough why they should bee thought mortified zealous perfect and saints and the rest for
corrupt conscience for it could not be imputed to our ignorance that without good reason and all probabilitie of sufficient cause we were likely to forbeare the acceptance of the new authoritie till the comming of the Breue wittingly to cast our selues into a damnable state If our former labours and conuersations had deserued this conceit our aduersaries might haue had some pretence to justifie their doings and perhaps saued themselues from the ignominie of detractors and calumniators But if not as I hope the world will testifie for vs then surely they should haue takē another course contrarie to this they tooke as well for sauing themselues from greeuous sinnes as for preseruing vs from these horrible infamies into which they haue cast both themselues and vs by their headie and rash judgements For truly if any one reason of ours or all together be found a sufficient cause of our delay a heape of sinnes infamies will redound vpon their owne heads and we shall be freed And now touching M. Bluet M. Clarke and others of ours that are said to haue accesse and conference dayly with the Bishop of London or some other of the Counsel Haue their former cōuersation in the world and their long sufferings cast that euill sent or doe they yeeld such certaine proofes of a gracelesse disposition that this fact of theirs can deserue no defence nor excuse or is it so manifestly ill in it selfe that it will admit no cause as reasonable to salue it or is there no meane nor way whereby their fact indifferent doubtlesse in it owne nature may be if not altogether justified and defended yet at the least excused or left vnjudged to be alreadie of the vilest qualitie and they accordingly demeaned Aunswere for the Iesuits Is it a manifest and an vndoubted sinne that a Catholick priest and prisoner haunt an aduersaries house and haue conference with him Gent. Now truly I am persuaded it is not for I haue read of many good Saints that haue haunted the companie of euill persons with great zeale and merit and our Sauiour Christ himselfe and his Apostles vsed the company of scribes pharisies publicans and the worst sinners Priest If this be indifferent and may be done with merite what can make it a sinfull action in M. Bluet and M. Clarke Gent. Their intention and businesse onely or perhaps the scandale they giue thereby Priest For the scandale in respect of all the learned Catholicks of England the Priests and religious men especially it is Scandalum acceptum and not datum For they knowing it to be an indifferent action of it owne kind and to be justifiable and made good by many circumstances if they take scandale before they see some ill effect to be intended or necessarily to issue thereupon it must be onely Scandalum acceptum And for the simpler sort of Catholickes they also with their leaders are bound in conscience to suspect or judge no ill of the indifferent actions of their Catholicke fathers and prisoners vntill some sinfull intention or effect appeare And in this case much more ought the constancie of these Catholick priests imprisoned as long as they perseuer constant to stay at the least all good Christians from temerarious or rash judgements which is euer a greeuous sinne and in this case is greatly encreased by the state and dignitie of these men and by their former good deserts and sufferings than they should be moued by their accesse and conference onely to suspect or judge the worst or to vtter any thing derogatorie to their good names The Iesuits and Priests which are willing to set this scandale on foot and labour what lieth in them to make our priests actions seeme hainous and horrible and neuer cease to persuade the people to judge the worst and to exclaime against them these Iesuits and Priests haue the more sinne and as they be the authours and continuers of the scandale so haue they to answere for the sinnes of their disciples Gent. By my faith it is daungerous to be too forward in imitating the Iesuits zeale in this point and great safetie it is to suspend ones judgement and to temper ones tongue till more be knowne Pr. I thinke that the securest way for as S. Iames fourth sayth Qui detrahit fratri aut qui iudicat fratrem suum detrahit legi iudicat legem Si autem iudicas legem non es factor legis sed Iudex He that detracteth his brother or judgeth his brother detracteth the law and judgeth the law but if thou judge the law thou art not the obseruer of the law but the judge A Pharisaicall vice it is rashly to judge and condemn other men and I wish the Iesuits the Archpriest with their complices in slaundering vs were free from all note and contagion of this turpitude But if we throughly examine the causes which wee haue giuen them on our part and with indifferencie weigh the nature of these actions their circumstances in euery respect whereupon the Iesuits and their adherents haue judged and defamed vs of most horrible crimes we shall easily perceiue thē to haue transgressed the bounds of all Christian charitie A religious man is bound to tend and aime at Euangelicall perfection This consisteth not in the name of an order nor in the three essentiall vowes of pouertie chastitie and obedience to a Superiour For hereby onely the principall lets and impediments which may hinder their attaining to perfection are remoued But perfection indeed Tho. 2.2 which by their profession they are bound to endeuor vnto dooth consist in a full mortification of themselues in all respects and in a perfect charity towards God and man Now I demaund of the Iesuits what degree of charitie they haue shewed and exercised in this controuersie was euer any bad companions so dissolute and impudent and desperate railers so void of conscience and charitie which vpon so slender causes and grounds first of our delay to receiue the authoritie and now of hauing conference with the Bishop of London or others of the Counsell could euer haue run a more intemperate headie and vncharitable course of rash suspition and judgement to the ouerthrow of our good names than the Iesuits haue done Could they more haue exceeded the limits of grace of temperance of modestie of humanitie than the religious Fathers haue VVho in matters belonging onely to the supreame Pastor to decide haue taken vpon them to determine the cause who with their own particular fantasie haue preuented the sentence and judgement of the See Apostolicke and who finally vpon a priuat opinion of their owne thought yet erronious by men not their inferiors for learning judgement sinceritie and other vertues haue earnestly laboured for euer to disgrace and vtterly defame so many Catholick priests Could any lost or forlorne caitife haue made more vile and detestable inferences or gathered more loathsome poyson or raised a more pestiferous stinch by stirring in these matters and freely
spending their mouths in condemning and defaming priests for their conferences with the Counsell and Bishop than these religious men haue done and their disciples by their example and onsetting VVhat then auaileth a name and boast of religious perfection when in obseruing this ordinarie precept of not judging or not condemning rashly they are so farre short of matching the most of our imperfect priests that they haue scarsely gotten one step before the baddest Christians Could not their charitie find any one cause or reason for excuse of M. Bluet and M. Clarkes indifferent action till some worse effect appeared VVas it needfull for their charitie to preuent their ill doing which perhaps will neuer fall out with most reprochfull slaunders Infamies in the conceits of humble and charitable men come timely ynough vpon Catholicke priests after they haue certainely done the fault and in no wise ought to be cast vpon them before the crime bee committed It is no hainous trespasse in these extremities and wants of necessary releefe in prison which by the Iesuits and the Archpr. their meanes is vncharitably brought vpon them to sollicite the Counsell or Bishop for more enlargement or for continuance of the libertie they haue alreadie or to procure the like to their afflicted brethren If in this onely they haue found a little fauor why then might not a Iesuits charitie haue pretended or imagined this to bee the cause of their going and conference Again it is no crime to sue for their owne and their brethrens banishment if thē in these great and most grieuous miseries inflicted vpon them by the Iesuits and Arch-priest as slaunders penurie losse of faculties suspensions and the like vndeserued cruelties aboue the common persecution by their aduersaries in faith they seeke for their owne deliuerance by banishment might not the religious Iesuits and Archp. by this reason justifie or at least excuse their going to the Bishop YVhat if their intentions be to worke some good of these magistrats either for their conuersion or to make them more fauourable to afflicted Catholickes and better conceited of Catholicke courses yea or to procure some tolleration or other good to our church All these be lawfull ends and might be more easily and with lesse daunger of sinne supposed by charitable men to bee their businesse till some worse matter appeared than the baddest disposition and affair that emulous heads can deuise These and many moe causes of their conferences and accesse may bee without much labour thought vpon all or any one of which might be sufficient ynough to induce a timerous conscience to deeme the best or at least to stay it from the downefall of rash suspition judgement and defamation And to tell what I thinke I should not marueile any whit if her Majestie and her Counsell should doe M. Bluet M. Doctor Bag. M. Clarke and many of our seminarie priests more singular fauours and good turnes than these they haue done or they doe to the Iesuits considering they know we hope in the end our priests simply to deale in matters of religion only and no whit to entermeddle in state affaires nor to concurre with Fa. Parsons and his associates in their plotting about titles successors inuasions and disposing of the crowne and realme either in her Majesties time or after her decease An odious and vnfit occupation for religious men which by profession should haue left the world Gent. Left the world Nay Gods pitie I feare me rather that Saint Barnard toucheth them not a little when speaking of religious men hee sayth Itane mundum sibi semundo crucifixerunt vt qui antea vix in suo vico aut oppido cogniti suerāt modo circumeuntes provincias curias frequentantes regum noticias principumque familiaritates assecuti sunt Haue they so crucified the world to themselues themselues to the world that they which before were knowne scarsely in their owne street or towne now wandering about prouinces haunting courts they haue gotten the acquaintance of kings and the familiaritie of princes And againe Video post spretam seculi pompam nonnullos in schola humilitatis superbiam magis addiscere ac sub alis mitis humilisque magistri grauius insolescere impatientes amplius fieri in claustro quam fuissent in seculo quodque magis peruersum est plerumque in domo Dei non patiuntur habere contemptui qui in sua non nisi contemptibiles esse potuerunt I see some after they haue despised the pompe of the world to learne rather pride in the schoole of humilitie and vnder the wings of a mild and humble master to wax more proud and to become more impatient in the cloister than they had been in the world and which is most peruerse of all for the most part they disdaine to bee had in contempt in Gods house which in their owne estates could not be but contemptible If this concerne them let them looke to it and if it doe he telleth them from whence their euill springeth saying Nec aliunde haec omnia mala contingunt nisi quod illam qua seculum deseruerunt descrentes humilitatem dum per hoc cognitur inepta denuo sectari studia secularium canes efficiuntur reuertentes ad vomitum Neither proceed these euils from any other but that forsaking that humility wherwith they left the world whiles hereby they are enforced to follow again the vnfit studies of secular persons they become dogs returning againe to their vomit Pr. For these sayings of S. Barnard how it toucheth the Iesuits I will not trouble my selfe but as I said our not intermedling in matters of Estate may be a very great motiue to her Maiestie her Counsell why they should do vs moe pleasures and shew vs greater fauours than the Iesuits and such as runne their courses which cause being no fault in vs but a laudable thing and conformable to our function if we should reape fauours therfore they ought not in conscience to be turned to our reproch and infamie as though we were fauoured by them for some lewde demeanour and the Iesuits ought to blame themselues if for their dangerous tampering in things which belong them not they should finde some extraordinarie affliction or not the like fauours that three or foure semenarie Priests haue done Gent. Indeed there is no reason to the contrarie the jelousie of our magistrates and the State of our Countrey considered Pr. But now what benefits and fauours be these which any of ours receiue so extraordinarily aboue the Iesuits and their adherents Gent. The report flyeth That besides this libertie and fauour which M. Bluet and M. Clarke find that you all are maintained by the Lords of the Counsell that you want nothing and therefore are not to haue allowance or a part out of any common almes or money giuen for reliefe of poore Catholike Priests and prisoners Pr. VVhat thinke you of this report Gent. I thinke it very false Pr. I assure you
his good pleasure what he would haue vs to do and to bring vs word thereof Gent. These were good causes of going to Rome if these were all they deserued neither imprisonment nor banishment nor in any sort should they haue beene hardly vsed or denied audience Surely they had committed some other fault Priest None at all surely Fa. Parson feared least if they should haue had free audience they would haue detected his cunning dealing with the Pope in procuring the new authoritie with our Church in imposing it so violently vpon our Cleargie and haue finally ouerthrowne all his plots laid for oppressing our priests the aduancement of his soietie in England For this cause hauing Cardinall Caiet readie to enforme and effect whatsoeuer hee would mooue him to he maliciously informed the Pope against our priests shut vp all the wayes of audience and got them taken and committed to close prison before euer they were heard at the last banished Gent. They were brought before the Cardinall Caietane and another Cardinall in the English Colledge and then heard what they could say Pr. After seuen weekes close imprisonment they were called before them indeed their examinations taken by Fa. P. of many impertinent matters were read and after there was a shamefull slaunderous libell exhibited against them and read by M. Haddocke and M. Aray two English priests suborned by Fa. P. and readie for whatsoeuer he would bid them doe to serue his turne which yet our priests could not bee permitted to haue a copie of nor to aunswere vnto And for their maine businesse it was nothing at all to the purpose spoken of Gent. VVhy did not your priests deliuer their businesses to the Cardinals at that time Priest Because they were not called forth for that end but as malefactors to answere to whatsoeuer Fa. Par. had deuised against them And they saw neither time nor place fit to deliuer it where the iniquitie of Fa. P. so much preuailed and all justice and indifferencie was abandoned especially they perceiuing Fa. Parsons without discontenting Cardinall Caietane by so doing disposed to deride and make to seeme contemptible both the men and whatsoeuer they said in any thing that crossed his humour They asked the Cardinall if hee condemned their comming to the See Apostolicke about the affaires of their Church He said no it was lawfull VVhy then are we thus punished said they Not for your comming but because you haue thereby and by your contentions scandalized many in England And in the sentence of the Cardinals the crimes for which they were banished are specified to be neither schisme nor rebellion nor enormious disobedience to the Pope or Arch-priest but because they had had contentions in England with men of their owne order whether justly or injustly they had these contentions it is not declared that so vntrue a calumnie might goe more currant in those doubtfull speeches whereas no bad or vnjust dealings of theirs in Englād could be proued against them before those Cardinals but all matters were shuffled vp and done just as Fa. P. would haue them Gent. VVhereby it seemeth that this controuersie of yours was neuer at that time discussed or mentioned at all in Rome Pr. They there neuer had it in question or speech whether we were schismaticks or rebellious or enormiously disobedient for our bearing off to accept the authoritie before the comming of the Breue And therefore you may see by this what little truth is in the Iesuits words when they affirme that our cause was heard and sentence giuen against vs in Rome Gent. VVhy haue they tampered so much in these matters against you Pr. Oh they be Iesuits they must be stirring and the true causes are these They would not be subordinat in any manner to ordinary prelats in England as to Bishops Suffraganes c. but beare themselues the greatest sway in the gouernment of our Church and disposing of all things To exclude therefore all ordinarie prelates which were to bee chosen by voices and common consent of our cleargie they preuented vs secretly by getting an Archp. to rule ouer all except themselues This authoritie was of their owne deuising the man preferred thereto of their own election in whose gouernment also and actions they prouided that themselues should haue a principall stroke that forsooth in euery matter of importance the Archp. should haue the aduise and direction of the head Iesuit in England Thus their wils should be fulfilled without checke in all they listed to attempt or desire Now after they had by false suggestion by many wayes procured this new authoritie and brought vs all into their bondage it behooued them to hold it by violence and strong hand which they had contriued by such cunning for their owne particular without respect of conscience or charitie The end I told you of admaiorem dei gloriam which is cheefely by the aduancement of their societie salueth all odde dealings Gent. It were more time that wee proceeded to some other matter for I should vnderstand this more by reading the censure and letter you spoke of Pr. Let vs so doe what is the next The fourth Slaunder Gent. The report is all ouer That you bee aduersaries or enemies to the Iesuits which are known to be religious men of singular vertue and perfection and to whome aboue all men our nation is most bound and many things are said of your hard dealing against them Pr. I pray you let vs heare all and I shall satisfie you in euery point as well as I can Gent. I shall speake all as it commeth to my remembrance Priest Doe so but for this you haue said what ground haue they to proue vs their enemies or in what are wee their enemies say they I know some haue said and written That wee are enemies to their religious perfection Gent. I also haue heard the same of their dearest fauourites Priest This is a rash and vncharitable calumnie For no man can be an enemy to religious perfection but thereby he falleth from Gods grace For albeit no man out of vow be bound vnder mortall sinne to obserue the Euangelicall counsels yet can no Christian hate the obseruers of them or become their enemie for that respect but hee offendeth mortally thereby If therefore it be certaine that we be their enemies it is no lesse certain that the cause is not any part of religious perfection to be noted in them for otherwise should we be enemies also to the religious men of other orders as to Dominicans Franciscans Benedictines Carthusians and the rest in all the which no man except a Iesuit will denie as much religious perfection to bee found as is among the Iesuits yea we should be more enemies to all them than to Iesuits if this were the cause that mooueth vs in this case For all these haue the essentiall vows of pouertie chastitie and obedience as well as Iesuits and it is to bee supposed that they obserue
them as perfectly Besides they haue their continuall abstinence their diuerse Lents and many extraordinarie fasts their nightly risings and watchings to sing laudes to God to meditate and to pray their great castigations and vsuall afflictions of their bodies by disciplines hard diet sharpe attire and other meanes of mortification All which the Iesuits want more than that now then like good ordinarie secular priests they will be doing something but little to account of in respect of the continued toyles and mortifications of other holy religions men of all sorts Now if religious perfection were the cause of this fayned hatred or emnitie we should be most auersed from all these orders in which we know these meanes of perfections or perfections most to abound and most loue and embrace the Iesuits in whom wee know all these to bee wanting But neither be we enemies to those holy orders neither will those holy men impute vnto vs this calumnie neither can the Iesuits themselues be ignorant that we loue and honour those orders and men for their great vertues and mortification of life And therefore this slaunder is intollerable injurie vnto vs all to make the world beleeue vs so void of grace and godlinesse that we are enemies to the Iesuits for their vertue and perfection thus putting vs in the ranke of the vilest miscreants that are or can be imagined The truth therefore is that wee loue and honour the Iesuits order and should both loue and honour them more the more they and their order tendeth to perfection and the lowlier conceit they caried of themselues And if we be their aduersaries it is for some other cause than their vertues Gent. For what I pray you Pr. No other but the very same for which the Iesuits haue accounted many men of great vertue and calling to be their aduersaries Gent. Father Parsons in his VVardword to Sir Francis Hastings seemeth to say that none but badly disposed men and wretches giuen ouer to wickednesse are aduersaries to Iesuits How then can it bee that good men are their aduersaries as you say Priest I say not that good men were their aduersaries but that they accounted many vertuous men their aduersaries For albeit they reckon euery one to bee their aduersarie that crosseth their doings in any respect yet in truth a vertuous man in so doing is their friend and if selfe-liking were abandoned would be so esteemed by them They onely and some such like as Fa. P. there speaketh of are their true aduersaries which hate and mislike their vertue and well doing and goe about to hinder this bee it in a Iesuit or in any other honest Catholicke man Gent. Such wicked men be aduersaries to all true Christians but yet Fa. Parsons with many beyond and these Iesuits in England account you and all your adherents here or abroad to bee aduersaries to their societie Pr. I graunt they doe But this is because we contradict and resist the ill actions and proceedings of some particular men of their societie For they must haue all approued and justified whatsoeuer any of them doth otherwise you cannot bee thought their friend This is a comfort that we may bee right good men before God and the world notwithstanding these Fathers account vs their aduersaries yea and persecute vs also as they haue and doe For many priests whom they haue sought vehemently to discredit by this report of being their aduersaries and therefore haue disgraced them in what they could as well in England as in our Colledges vnder their gouernment beyond which almost neuer haue been free from greeuous contentions are now glorious Martyrs in heauen which being rejected and persecuted by them yet laboured in Gods vineyard here as painefully and as fruitfully to say no more as any Iesuit in the realme yea and when it came to the triall of their vertue their resolution and their constant charitie these outcasts the Iesuits aduersaries were alwayes found no lesse patient in torments and prisons and no lesse courageous in shedding their blood for defence of Christs cause than any of the Iesuits This was manifest to let all the rest of the Martyrs and confessors passe in the blessed priests M. Iohn Ingram M. Thomas Pormort and M. Lanton glorious Martyrs yet reckoned in the number of the Iesuits aduersaries yea and not a little afflicted and disgraced by them for the same VVhat will Fa. P. and the Iesuits say to the most gracious and peerelesse jewell of our countrey Cardinall Allen Must he for companie also bee raunged and thrust into that predicament of their aduersaries where Fa. P. affirmeth to Sir Francis Hastings that none bee the Iesuits aduersaries except Heretickes Apostataes dissolute men disobedient malecontents the like It were too too bad impudencie and intollerable mallice to say that hee was not a right vertuous a wise and a gracious man Gent. Yea but he was not the Iesuits aduersarie Pr. Then they foulely belie him For I assure you my selfe haue often heard some Iesuits earnestly affirme that he was their aduersarie and much auersed from them before his death Gent. I maruell greatly that any of them hauing wit will report this for that must be a great discredit to them to say that a man of those graces which euery way he was knowne to haue were their aduersarie and auersed from them considering all men hearing this would foorthwith conceiue some euill desert to be in them by reason whereof hee was become their aduersarie Pr. The reporters were told no lesse but what is to be expected where ouer-weening of themselues blindeth these Saints Now then Cardinall Allen was their aduersarie by their owne confession but Cardinall Allen was well knowne in Christendome to be a good vertuous man then it followeth that good men may be the Iesuits aduersaries and againe that in truth it is no discredit for a Catholicke priest to be their aduersarie to contradict or withstand them in any ill attempt or action of theirs and lastly it followeth that the Iesuits bee no such Saints as their good end of doing all ad maiorem dei gloriam can justifie and make currant all they doe Gent. But what was Cardinall Allen their aduersarie indeed Priest I know that hee misliked and condemned many things the Iesuits did and in this sort hee was their aduersarie and so be we For I haue heard him much condemne their gouernement of our colledge in Rome namely for their want of frugalitie and vsing the houses liuing to the most benefit of our nation for their palpable partialitie to some of the students aboue the rest for their continuall enticing and drawing by an hundred cunning means our most towardly youths to be of their societie for keeping such many times as they had allured and woon vnto them vnder the names of our schollers till they had ended their courses of studie by which policie the Iesuits nouices occupied the roomes prouided for our students and by them more were
Doway So that in trueth his endeauours in erecting new Colledges or Seminaries haue rather much diminished the commoditie and decayed the good of our Countrey than encreased it and then consequently Fa. P. deserueth small thanks for his labour Gent. How can this be possible Priest Thus First you will grant me that it is the greater benefit and good of our Countrey the moe students wee haue brought vp in the Seminaries which become priests and yeeld themselues to labor in our English haruest Gent. I cannot denie this for the greatest increase of our Cleargie is our Countries greater good Pr. But before Fa. P. erected his there were moe good priests yeerely sent from Rome and Rhemes or Doway into England than is or hath bene yeerely since from those two and all the rest besides Gent. How happened this Pr. Marry before Fa Par. erected his and before the Iesuits had the greatest stroke in monie matters in England it is well knowne that in the Colledge at Rhemes there were sometimes eight score otherwhiles 200 or 220. of our Countrie-men old and yong students now the number is diminished to 60. All that came were well-come and friendly entertained none rejected brought they money or brought they none now can none bee receiued without a grosse summe of monie or else a yearely stipend vnlesse he be fit at the first to studie Diuinitie and either not at all or very hardly can any be entertained vnlesse he be sent or commended by the Iesuits and Archp-riest In those dayes sixteene priests or moe were sent into England in one yeere now three or foure bee many then the renowned fame and glory of the Colledge drew vnto it good schollers and ancient men from the Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge but now it hath lost the ancient credit and thought a meeter schoole for boyes than for men then it was a famous Nurserie for the best Literature now the science of scholasticall Diuinitie is not much respected if it be not altogether laid aside I let passe to speake what difference there is betweene those old and these new gouernours Gent. This is a wonderfull decay of likelyhood the ordinarie stipends are withdrawn which came yearly from Spaine and Rome Priest No they are still allowed Gent. VVhat then is the cause of this ruine Pr. No other but the diuerting away of the almes vsually sent out of England to supplie the necessities of that Colledge for receiuing these the house flourished and could doe much and wanting them all must of necessitie decay Gent. Are the Iesuits to blame for this Priest VVould to God they were not But thus much is certaine larger almes were neuer giuen than hath been these late yeares againe it hath ben obserued That the more the Iesuits be in credit and got into their hands the disposing of things especially the almes-purse the lesse releefe hath beene sent to that Colledge out of England yea not an hundred markes in three or foure yeares Gent. VVhich way thinke you these almes are implied Pr. I know not but as I told you the prisoners in England the poore priests and Catholicks neuer suffered such great want of releefe as they haue done these late years the Iesuits indeed haue abundance but so great summes cannot be consumed vpon thēselues only some other passage there is for it doubtlesse we will not speak what many surmise and mutter secretly of buying annuities of putting into banke beyond the seas for two thousand pound they say was intercepted this yeare going ouer from whence or whether it is not known to me more than that generally it was reported to be sent by the Iesuits or of maintaining Iesuits in other countries Let these passe and be they true or false it is not to bee thought other but the Fathers here will haue a speciall eie to the Colledges which themselues haue ben a meane to erect Gent. It is very well if it goe to them Priest It is better so than worse But marke now what dammage ensueth thereby to our Church The Colledge of S. Omers is onely for children none except their parents bee deare to the Iesuits can haue place there vnlesse hee bring with him fortie pounds or fiftie pounds or more or haue some good annuitie to maintaine him Now the Colledge of Doway or Rhemes entertained indifferently all that came and vpon the vsuall almes sent from England maintained them albeit they brought nothing but if this Colledge at S. Omers for children that come also well prouided intercept or receiue the almes which were accustomed to bee sent to Doway or Rhemes for the maintenance not of as many children onely but also of at the least foure times as many priests as be there now is it not manifest that our countrey looseth far more at Doway than it gaineth at S. Omers by erecting of a Colledge there Gent. It may be that this notable defect is supplied by the two Colledges in Spaine Priest I perceiue not that it is so For both they returne not into England yearely so many priests by farre as are wanting now in the number accustomed yearely to bee sent from Rhemes and so the great dammage remaineth still VVhen Doctor Barret president of the Colledge at Rhemes perceiued this hurtfull effect to befall our countrey by Fa. Parsons diligence in erecting these new Colledges hee writ seriously to him about the matter and assured him That it was much better to maintaine the Colledge of Rhemes which was the beginner of all our countries happinesse next to God and was the greatest glorie and good of our Nation than to build new ones to the decay of this but Fa. Parsons after his fashion impatient of any admonition tooke his aduise in very ill part and to correct the Presidents boldnesse forslowed as was thought to procure the Spanish pension till the Colledge was almost vndone and dissolued Gent. This is a very great losse to our countrey and yet noted by few or none Priest Nay the Iesuits beare you in hand of inestimable benefits receiued by these new Colledges Gent. They doe so indeed but these benefites bee onely in conceit I see now Priest You will see it better if to this I haue alreadie told you wee adde the multitude of our schollers which are consumed by the distemperat air of Spain and die there for S. Omers is no more but to bring vp children in humanitie and after to send them to Spaine which losse also had been preuented by the vpholding of the Colledge at Rhemes or Doway regions more agreeable with our English nature than Valle de Leith or Ciuill Againe if we consider another exceeding great losse of our countreymen gouerned by the Iesuits and which was euer auoided at Rhemes Doway gouerned by our secular priests we haue good cause to thinke our countrey to gaine nothing by these new Colledges for continully they entice and allure many of our finest wits and most towardly youth from the ordinarie vocation