ouer And therefore good Reader thou maist see by this little what thou must expect hereafter That when hee hath shewed the flawes and maladies of my Treatise as hee supposeth and disgorged himselfe of some carping exceptions against some mistaken questions if any such happen to occurre The substance of the Booke will stand sound and firme against all the cauelling Champions of the Romish Synagogue And so wishing them all increase of knowledge to Gods glory I bid them Farewell in Christ Tho. Vdall A briefe Replie of Thomas Vdall Gentle to a short Memorandum or shew of answere against his Booke Intituled A briefe view of the VVeake Grounds of Popery By B. C. student in Diuinitie according to the order proposed in the Preface B. C. Sect. 1. BEeing thus dispatched of Master Rogers it remaineth to speake a word or two of another Booke which was not long since sent me and is Intituled A briefe viewe of the weake grounds of Popery compiled together by one Master Vdall a lay Gentleman of diuers English Controuertists as himselfe seemeth to insinuate and in all probabilitie cannot otherwise bee thought and so no maruaile if the waters bee not sound when they were drawen from corrupt fountaines and who can euer looke for a well shapen garment made after a crooked measure Grapes are not gathered of thornes Mat. 8.16 nor figges of thistles as our Sauiour saith yet doth it so much please Master Vdall that hee doth seeme to take great heart of grace for that hee was not answered with that expedition he expected The more haste hee maketh the more he vrgeth his owne disgrace if malice haue set him a worke but if it be true zeale of truth and sauing his soule as he pretendeth I despaire not of his conuersion wherefore either for the spirituall profit of himselfe or the commoditie of other or common good of both I will now present him with a short sample of such foule flawes as bee in his booke minding afterward with more full hand to prosecute that subiect T. V. IT séemes at the first entrance of Master B. C. Memorandū That he would willingly extenuate the matter of my Booke by tearming me A lay Gentleman insinuating to his Popish dependants That they should not so much weigh what is spoken as who speakes though all men of iudgement weigh rather the speech then the speaker And so I hope will not inquire so much what I am as what I say The generall scope and drift of my whole booke may bee thus deduced That Religion which hath weake and vncertaine grounds cannot bee the true Religion But Popish Religion hath weake and vncertaine grounds Ergo Popish Religion cannot bee the true Religion The Maior is euident and the Minor is prooued throughout my whole booke in the Refutation of euery particular grounde of Popery Against my Booke Master B. C. reasoneth thus That which is drawen from English Controuertists cannot be sound But Master Vdalles Booke is drawen from English Controuertists Ergo Master Vdalles Booke cannot be sound How Master B. C. hath quit himselfe for the proofe either of his Maior or Minor I leaue to the censure of the learned But I pray you let me aske you this question May not truth bee drawen from English Controuertists What will then become of Hardings workes the Rhemes Testament Cardinall Allens Parsons Raynolds Bristowes and your owne with many others Surely if the feathers you haue borrowed from Harding Stapleton and others were pluckt from you your whole booke would be as naked as Esopes Crow If I haue takē great heart of grace for that I was not answered with that expedition I expected I may doe so still for any answere I haue yet made you neither doe I see any cause now to discourage me since that after almost two yéeres méeting with one so sharpe sighted as your selfe I find nothing answered to any purpose For I truely protest I sée not neither I thinke doe you What spirituall profite to my selfe or what commoditie to other or what common good to both the short sample of such foule flawes as you present me with should procure either to other or to me But you mind hereafter you say to prosecute that subiect with a more full hand you had neede for this is very barren and emptie And if your promises hereafter prooue no better then these supposed flawes now presented you may well chaunge your opinion And say you dispaire altogether of my conuersion B. C. Sect. 2. IN his Preface to his deerest Cousins whom with poyson lurking vnder sugred words he laboureth to inuenome hee accuseth vs of open blasphemie against the sacred Scriptures which I thinke will rather proue a grosse vntruth on his part and where is this blasphemie contained in a booke as he telleth vs of Cardinall Cusanus which is intituled De authoritate c Of the authoritie of the Church and Councels aboue and against the Scriptures But I beseech him did he euer see this booke which so confidently hee alleageth if he hath then should he haue done well to haue noted where that the Reader also might haue found it seeing it is not amongst the three Tomes of his workes set out at Basill In the yeere 1565. neither mentioned by Trithemius who hath diligently gathered together the workes of learned writers nor yet by Posseuinus who hath lately entreated of the same matter In the yeere 1565. If he hath not what indiscretion is it in so weightie a point to relie vpon the credit of others Verily wold such as read Protestants bookes but vouchsafe sometime to examine the quotations it were not possible that they could bee so pittifully deceiued as they daily be Cusanus is abused he neuer wrot any such booke This vntruth it may bee borrowed from Master Iewell Detection lib. 5. pag. 410. who doth not onely cite that booke but also as though hee had knowen it very well quote very many places out of the same as hee is charged by Doctor Harding which argueth that out of true bookes hee could haue proued any thing for himselfe that out of one which was neuer written found so many testimonies to serue his turne I would not wish Master Vdall to imploy his time so badly as with the touch of his credite and perill of his owne soule to retale the vntruths of such grosse Merchants T. V. THat which you call Poyson is rather an Antidote against the infection of such poysoned spirits as yours But to the matter it is true that in the Preface of my booke I haue charged the Papists iustly with blasphemie The force of my reason there may be thus deduced Those which haue published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures haue vttered open blasphemie But the Papists haue published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures Ergo the Papists haue vttered open blasphemie The Maior is euident and the Minor is prooued by Cardinall Cusanus Syluester Prierias
C. chaste eares But could any man that professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie reason thus impertinently if hee were not perswaded that any thing would passe for currant amongst the seduced Papists and can any man be ignorant that hath read my booke that the whole scope and drift thereof tends to shew the weakenesse of the Grounds of Poperie of which that of Councels is helde a chiefe one with them For howsoeuer the controuersie amongst themselues Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope Or whether Councels should be confirmed by the Pope or not confirmed be not yet determined yet we professe to reuerence Councels no farther then their doctrine is consonant and agréeable to the Scriptures according to the opinion of that famous clarke Saint Austin who writing against Maximinus long before this new Popery was hatched saith thus Cont. Max. lib. 3. ca. 14. But neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councell of Ariminum for a preiudice for neither am I tyed to the authoritie of this nor you to the authoritie of that but let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason contend by the authoritie of the Scriptures not proper to any but indifferent witnesses to both partes You sée heare and may in diuers other places of my booke what opinion S. Austin had of Councels that would not haue his aduersary tied to the authoritie of the great Councell of Nice comparable to which no Councell was euer yet since the Apostles But if I had failed in this proofe yet was the matter there intended sufficiently proued by other testimonies which you acknowledge to bee your owne grounds Greg. Tom. 3. pag. 291. Neither was it vrged to delude the ignorant as you either ignorantly or maliciously affirme but rather to shew how you varie both from Fathers and Councels when they make against you B. C. Sect. 5. SEcondly this Councell of Constantinople in Trullo is of no authoritie as in which the Pope neither by himselfe nor by his Legates was present Lib. de sex aet atibus In Iustiniano and Pope Sergius who then liued did disanull that erraticall Synode as venerable Bede writeth with what conscience then can Master Vdall call that a generall Councell and vrge the authoritie therof as authenticall when as not onely we but also the Protestants vtterly reiect it albeit in this point we for our parts see no cause to refuse it Thirdly true it is not that the Councell of Laodicea setteth downe the same Canon of the Scriptures which the Church of England alloweth for the Apocalypse or Reuelation of Saint Iohn is omitted Fourthly this Councell forbiddeth the reading of others not there expressed yet the Church of England readeth the histories of Iudith and Tobie in their publike assemblies which Master Vdall I suppose will hardly shew how it agreeth with the decree of that Councel Fiftly he hath corrupted be Councell by adding somewhat of his owne for these words and receiued into authoritie bee not there found Would any euer haue thought that so many things could haue bene noted against him in so small a sentence If Master Vdall hath viewed the originall hardly can he bee excused from malice if hee hath not let him beshrew their fingers vpon whose credite hee committed them to writing T. V. IN this fift Section Master B. C. hath shewed great store of smal knowledge by telling how many things of note Are comprised in these few lines against me For if these notes conuince him of much weaknesse to handle controuersies then may his Popish dependants wish that he had answered with silence as Doctor Norris did before him least his too much haste further his owne disgrace if I may returne his owne words But let vs examine the particulars In the first note the reason lies thus All Councels that are of authoritie must haue the Pope or his Legates present But this Councell had neither the Pope nor his Legates present Ergo this Councell is of no authoritie I denie the Maior for I hope Master B. C. being so great a disputant will not still begge the question And we may well hold this position A noueltie of Poperie vnlesse Master B. C. can shew vs which neuer any yet did some testimonies of the ancient Fathers that are not counterfeit that euer wrote or taught this doctrine Besides master B. C. cannot be ignorant * Sciendū est quod in vniuersalibus octo concilijs vbi imperatores interfuerunt non Papa semper inuenio imperatores iudices suos cum senatu primatum habuisse officium praesidentiae per interlocutiones ex consensu Synodi conclusiones iudicium fecisse non inuenitur instantia in octo concilijs preterquam in tertia actione concilij Chalcedonensis Cusan lib. 3. cap. 16. de concord Cathol Cap. 19. That the auncient and first Councels were neither called by the Pope nor hee either by himselfe or his Legates President therein And in the second generall Councell holden at Constantinople Bellarmine confesseth that the Pope was neither there in person nor by his Legates and also hee saith De cont li. 2. ca. 14. that Petrus de Aliaco and Cusanus both Cardinals Gerson Almain Antoninus Tostatus and many others held That the Councell is aboue the Pope And the same hath aso beene decreed in the thrée generall Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill and as yet the contrary was neuer decreed as Doctor Whittaker sheweth in the fift question of his Tract of Councels and as Bellarmine confesseth the question remaineth amongst the Catholiques to this day With what Schollership or conscience then can Master B. C. conclude the Councell to be of no authoritie because neither the Pope nor his Legates were present And if Master B. C. be so well read in controuersies as it should seeme then can he not chuse but speake against his owne knowledge for he cannot be ignorant that many Popes haue cited these Canons since it appeares euen by our aduersaries that these Canons were in times past held for the Canons of the sixt Synode And Gratiane often cites thē in his decrees alwayes cals them Canons of the sixt Synode And in Gratian dist 16. cap. 6. Adrian the Pope saith Sextam Synodum sanctam cum omnibus suis Canonibus recipio I receiue the sixt holy Synode with all the Canons thereof And though Canus say That this Councell made no Canons yet the same is openly refuted in Gratian. And Innocent in his Tract of the age and qualitie of those to be ordered citeth one of these Canons cals it a Canon of the 6. Synode And the same also Gratian citeth dist 3 2. cap. Si quis And Pope Adrian the first in the Epistle to Tarasius which is extant in the second action of the seuenth Synode openly confirmes it And though Bellarmine answere that Adrian onely reciteth the sentence of Tarasius and refels it
those Councels preferre the Councell before the Pope And yet Pope Martin the fift in the last Sessiō of the Councell of Constance approueth in his Bul all those decrees which were made by this Councell in matters of faith prayseth and confirmeth them And for the Councell of Basill The Diuines of Paris prayse and defend the authoritie thereof against Leo the tenth and their commendation and defence thereof is extant in print And if Master B. C. sinceritie were such as he pretends he could not be ignorant that Papists haue reiected those Councels which cannot be denied to be both lawfull and generall And if the vntruths you haue obiected against Master Bell and Master Rogers be no better proued you haue blotted much paper to little purpose For what are these exceptions against my booke but a ridiculous biting at the héele when you are wounded at the heart B. C. Sect. 8. THus much shall serue at this time for by Gods assistance I intend heereafter more to lay open the manifold maladies of his treatise and to shew with what weake engines he laboureth to vndermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholike Church God graunt that the happie newes of his conuersion may crosse these my designements whereof I see no cause to dispaire if truly zeale of religion and desire of saluation which so much he would seeme to thirst after hath embouldened him being a lay man to launch into the depth of these mysticall matters Let him not relie too much vnto those from whom he receiueth the substance of that he writeth least together with the losse of his reputation hee incurre also the daunger of eternall damnation and if vpon this small warning he findeth himselfe to haue bene deceiued wisedome would he should more carefully looke how he trusteth where hee hath bene abused and with greater diligence both to examine his owne writers and also to reade ours namely Cardinall Bellarmine where hee shall finde the most of his obiections answered as the Catholique author of that letter which hee hath put downe in his booke truely enformeth him To which that giueth no satisfaction alleaged by M. Vdall for answere to wit that Bellarmines reasons are by the learned of his side sufficiently handled and replied vnto when as the most of the arguments in his booke be answered by Bellarmine and nothing doe I find brought by M. Vdall to infringe his solutions which giueth me iust cause to suspect that hee is with the preconceyted sinceritie of his owne doctors carried away into error and so looketh litle into the Originals which if he did he culd not but find that which he pretendeth to seeke for if he shut not his eyes against the truth as he professeth he will not Which that he may doe I shall not forget to commend him to his mercy who desireth not the death of a sinner but that all should come to the knowledge of his name But if it shall fall out that he will still proceede forward in his former course yet I would wish him in writing to abstaine from all biting and bitter words which sometime he breaketh into that the quarrell of God may not be prosecuted like the quarrels of this world but with that modesty which becommeth the professors of diuinity and religion T. V. YOu see M. B. C. that I haue iustified and freed my selfe from all those vniust imputations wherewith you charged me And therefore since you ingage your selfe by this your promise To lay open the manifold maladies of my former Treatise and to shew with what weake engines as you phrase them I labour to vndermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholique Church I hope you will take warning by this little that hath bene shewed you to deale more sincerely in that which is to come wherein it shall be much for your owne credit and the reputation of the Catholique cause whereof you so much boast to be so impregnable that you answer not by patches and peeces picked heere and there for your most aduantage as your Cōmon custome is but that you set downe my words verbatim with the same equity that I haue shewed in this for if you deale otherwise I shall scarce iudge you worthy of any further answer And in the meane time I dare promise That your designemēts shal no way bee crost with the newes of my conuersion though I protest I will weigh the reasons that shall be deliuered by you hereafter with all indifferencie and good conscience Albeit I thinke it no such boldnesse as you censure it To launch into the depth of these mysticall matters since I hold it the dutie of euery Christian to know the grounds of his Religion to be infallible before he build his faith theron And for the relying vpon any man I neither haue nor wil further then truth shal warrant as nere as God shall mable me to iudge so that if I be deceiued which I see no cause yet to distrust it is error in my iudgment not euil affection in my will And whereas you wish me to read your Authors I may truly say I neuer refused to read any of thē nor conference with any how learned so euer Or how much so euer I might thereby haue disaduantaged my selfe and yet I was still more and more confirmed in the opinion I now hold and wherein I hope to die vnlesse Master B.C. will for the merite of winning soules make knowne some more certainty in the grounds of Poperie then I euer yet read or heard of You tell me That Bellarmine hath answered most of my obiections as the Catholique Author of that letter inserted by me hath truely informed me to which you say my answere giueth no satifaction And which yet is straunge you confesse my aunswere to bee this That Bellarmines reasons are by the learned of our side sufficiently handled and replied too Against which very absurdly in my poore opinion you reiterate the same speech againe and say That the most of the arguments in my booke be answered by Bellarmine and that you find nothing brought by mee to infringe his solutions Insinuating with more skill then sinceritie That you had vrged some particular instances therof whereto I had said nothing But if you had truely layd downe my answere in my letter it would much haue blemished the reputation both of your selfe and that Catholique Author That being so much vrged by me neither of you both could or would bring any such instance And how should I giue a solution to that which neitherof you both euer instanced though I much vrged it in my letter as these words there testifie viz. And whereas you referre me in the conclusion of your letter to Bellarmine de Pont. de Consiliis where you say I shall finde most of my obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels refuted so can I when soeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation which may ease you of some paines if it be so