quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌ„tium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie â—hich bookes are scripture and that â—â—e can commend none in this naâ—â—re but such as were written in â—â—e Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌ„t Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ„ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ„ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌ„poribus Apostolicis agereÌ„t tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is â—t to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌ„t which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ— S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ— the hands of the Church by thaâ— part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ— denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ— speake of but he saies onelie thaâ— he seemes to be of those who denie thâ— power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ— Councell It is one thing to saie thâ— a Councell can doe it another tâ— saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell as you will perceaâ— by the declaration of the next placâ— obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ— import seemed to denie not the foâ—mer but the later neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so some things thâ— â—hilosophers vse to saie do seeme 〈◊〉 be and are not and some thing â—emes to one otherwise many tiâ—es then to an other Had it been so â—deed I make no question but that â—ou who haue been diligent in your â—inde to seeke in him what might â—e brought against vs would not â—aue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next â—ou will finde in him first as I said â—efore that in his exclusiue he speaâ—es of bookes not written in the Aâ—ostles time or before to which purâ—ose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâ—ture Dominus narrabit in scripturis â—opulorum principum horum qui â—uerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud â—osteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat â—osteà authoritatem And to the same â—enour he himselfe a litle after let vs â—ote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of â—he Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ— not canonicall Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churcâ— in a generall Councell might wriâ— a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other bookâ— of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ— great doth professe to honour theâ— as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâ—me fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ— words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ— out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâ—s recipiendis non recipâ—eÌ„dâ—s vbi scripturaruÌ„ libros in authoritate pleâ—â—râ—a quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ„ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ— suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ— occasion require Scripturarum libâ— saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ— modo sunt habendi denunciat non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ— That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ— â—thoritie And the same the Church 〈◊〉 all times might and may doe â—hensoeuer there shall be cause â—hey were by the holy Ghost inâ—red and written by the Apostles â—d Princes of the Church qui fueâ—t in ea and were approued by them 〈◊〉 but it hath beene since necessaâ— to declare some of them to giue â—timonie that they be diuine and â—s testimonie the Church still can â—e Neither is our Sauiour offenâ—d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word who was pleased that she â—ould giue testimonie of himâ—fe Of which matter this author â—th much in the former Chapters â—eciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope and of a perfect Councell â—e infallible as you will heare beâ—e wee leaue him and therefore â—ch more is he to be esteemed to â—eld this honour to the whole wheâ— they be All which being conâ—ered that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares that it is but a â—ere videtur without an est vnâ— it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ— secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiâ—nium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â— ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie froÌ„ Couâ—cells and from the present Churcâ— because he saith that the vnanimâ— profession of the holie Fathers giuâ— testimonie according to the distanceâ— their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome is the oâ—â— Christian engine which hath once â—â—lished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâ—swere first that he speakes withâ— exclusion of the Church presentâ— each heresie for it is well knowâ— that the Church which did aboâ—â— Arianisme and Nestorianisme 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times was that Church whâ— knewe of them and that she diâ— by her Pastors and for the most pâ— in Councells though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chuâ—â—â— and those her Pastors which liâ—â— in the precedent ages which o◠〈◊〉 or agreeable profession was â—nd partlie by their bookes as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares â—his daie and partlie by the tradiâ— of the particular Churches wheâ— they had liued and died Which â—â—nner the Church doth still obserâ— in condemning heresies as they
some sooner then others yet all in the end approue and propose it DEbet sacrum Concilium vniuersale regulis Sancti Spiritus tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis dirigi maximè in negotio fidei quae vna inuariabilis necessario sicut fuit permanebit scripturas rimari in dubijs sicut in sexto vniuersali Concilio actum fuit alijs multis tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta absque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in synodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae protestatio iustè ac simul appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerso charactere notantur 2. NEither is there cause to feare that a Councell assisted by the holie Ghost and defining will contradict either scripture or the h Ex hoc etiaÌ„ elici potest fideÌ„ Romanae Ecclesiae in nulla synodo vniuersali retractari posse Cutan Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augustiâ—us li. 1. con Donatistas volens stabili fundamento ex deâ—isione vniuersalis Concilij fidem probare Iam ne videar â—umanis argumentis id agere c. Idem c. 5. vidâ—s quanta â—niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest dum rectè celeâ—antur Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con Pelagianos diâ— matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem quod quisquis â—ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat ipse confrinâ—ut Ibidem faith of former times he that â—s chieflie interessed in the busines vnderstands all things clearlie and cannot contradict a veritie That which is obiected vpon ocâ—asion of S. Augustines words that i de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experimeÌ„to rerum c. fusius agemus suo loco a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things and in that case iudge amisse makes nothing to the purpose for wee dispute not of infallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment but in matters reuealed and of faith §. VI. Clemangis professed to reuerence the authoritie of Councells and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things touching them NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Parisiensi quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controuersijs morum Baro Ibidem CLEMANGIS His worke iâ— a Index libr. prohibit Conc. Trid. forbidden and his frind tâ— whom he directed it perceaued iâ— came from b Quanquam Deum ac conscieÌ„tiam testari liceat nullatenus stomachato animo illa fuisse scripta quod miror tibi visum esse quia tamen vndecun que hoc euenerit ita tibi visum est vt tuae quantum fas fuerit voluÌ„tati ac petitioni morem geram dulciora ac sedatiora enitar Clemang ad scholast Paris p 599. edit Parisiensi anno 1576. discontent being forced as appeares by his owne Epistle c Opressus naÌ„que vt nosti ante aliquot annos aemulolorum insultatione me tunc grauissimè persequentium ex vrbe illa fui excedere compulsus latebrasque à facie tempestatis coÌ„tra me iniustè admodum illic saeuieÌ„tis alibi quaerere p. 600. latebras quaerere to plaie leastâ— sight He writes bitterlie against the Clergie belike they made him flie Touching Councells he doth not contradict their authoritie howsoeuer he mistakes the manner of defending it but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it protesting both to honour them and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amisse Heare some of his owne words d Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue and faithfullie embrace all Councells as well such as longe agoe haue been duelie celebrated as also those which are celebrated now adaies and God forbid that I should thinke or speake any sinister thing of them Neither should I therefore be calumniated as lesse sincerelie esteeming them in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seeke to know and desire to haue declared vnto me some things that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie but also according to the capacitie of my litle wit trulie and wiselie speake of them And a litle after e Clemang pa. 588. I desire to be taught by thee whether thou thinkest it must be beleeued as a Catholike veritie that in those things which be of fact or of manners or of iudgments a generall Councell can neuer be deceaued as well as it is faithfullie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith And in the end f Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerariuÌ„ esset minus intellecta velle à sapientoribus discere quamuis etiam certè paratus sim si ea quae me mouent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scandadali illatiuum nimis astruere viderer aut fideli admonitu illud eradere aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare Ibidem I intend as I haue oft alreadie said neither am I loath to repeate it in these or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catholike integritie But in case I haue proposed not affirming but doubting or arguing any thing lesse certaine or true whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me And the rest which you finde cited in the Addition DIcit Christi assistentiam c. ad solos sanctos spirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam persuasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371. ANd whereas he proposeth by waie of doubt that holy meÌ„ only were to be heard speaking out of a Councell he seemes not to haue remeÌ„bred what our B. Sauiour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moyses chaire quae dicunt facite imitate not their workes but practice what they teach That such as doe celebrate a Councell should not nimis inniti to much insist or presume on this that they are a generall Councell as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit doth not make against vs it denies not to a Councell infallibilitie as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles who saies they should not relie to much therevpon as if therefore they might doe what they listed Moreouer his speach is qualified by himselfe if you marke it non debent vt videtur and g Clemang pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti mee thinks they should not I should not esteeme it profitable for them to relie c. § VII 1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of approued Councells 2. His opinion of others which are not