his free mercie not of our freewill workes So that what we haue now either in will or worke to do any thing acceptable to his most blessed will and pleasure the same in déede is in vs bicause his spirite is in vs but not of vs but of him bringing forth in vs Uelle perficere Both to will and to worke as fruites of his holy spirite within vs And if this agrée with the pestiferous Fables and lies of Simon Magus Marcion and Manes then ye haue mounted faire and well If not had ye mounted farre higher than they write Simon Magus did yea than euer Lucifer did yet as Simon Magus fell downe and brake his necke as Lucifer was throwen downe to hell fire so must you M. Stapleton with shame come downe againe for feare ye be hurled downe with them Now if as ye rashly mounted vp ye will orderly come downe through out all ages as it were by steppes ye may descende by this doctrine euen to your owne time againe But I pray you M. Stapleton in your comming downe let Pelagius be your host What maÌ„ drinke with him at least one free draught of his erroneous doctrine He is a free companion and will let ye drinke at will freely and he hath pleasannt licour well swéetned with pure naturall drugges and brewed with strong spices of your owne habilitie perfection and merites delectable to the palace of mans selfeloue But swéete soppes must haue sowre sawce they say â–ª This pleasaunt errour is but a sugred poyson and as ill on the other parte as Sâ—…noÌ„ Magus fatall necessitie was if not a great deale worse But ye will come neere vs and touche ye say the very foundation and well spring of this your newe Gospell which altogither is grounded vpon Iustification without good workes In that also ye drawe very nighe to the sayde Simon Magus Do we drawe nighe him M. St God sende grace you draw not with him and that many of your works yea euen of your good works and suche as ye ascribe iustification vnto be not suche as Simon Magus and his disciples workes were We grounde not vpon iustification without good workes you grounde vpon lyes without good consciences that thus do slaunder vs Iustification in déede may well be without your good workes yea it can not be with them The good workes that God commaundeth iustification bringeth foorth and therfore it can not be without them bicause they be the necessarie fruites of Iustification we seuer not them therfore from Iustification but discerne them from the Acte of God in iustifying Not to make our selues our owne iustifiers in whole or in parte We discerne theÌ„ from the causes of our iustification and ascribe the causes to the loue fauor and mercies of God the father for Christ his sonnes sake by the sanctification of his holy spirite We discerne our workes from the merite and deserte of iustification muche more from the merite of our saluation and say it is onely wrought by his merites and giuen to vs gratis freely All haue sinned sayth S. Paule and wante the glory of God but they are iustified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Iesu Christ whom God hath appoynted to be the reconciliatioÌ„ through fayth by his bloud comming betweene Which worde freely is contrary to merite and excludeth it as S. Paule reasoneth Sâ—… ex gratia iam non ex operibus alioquin gratia non est gratia If it come of grace then commeth it not of workes otherwyse grace is not grace That is to say it is not frée fauour but bound fauour as deserued or bought As Barnard said NoÌ„ est quo gratia intreâ—… vbi iam merituÌ„ occupauit VVhere merite hath taken vp the rowme there is no place for grace to enter And so S. Aug Haec est electio gratia c. This is the electioÌ„ of grace bicause all good merites of man are preuented For if it were giuen by any good merites then were it not giuen free but rendred as ought And by this meanes it is not by a true name called grace where reward is As the same Apostle sayth it is not imputed according to grace but according to duetie but if that it be true grace that is to saye freely giuen it findeth nought in man to whom it may be worthily owing Infinite are the places that may be cited out of the fathers and many are by others at large collected in this behalfe yea I haue shewed you Thomas his iudgement alredy therin who is the prince of al your scholemeÌ„ For merite of works therfore in iustification we are of S. Paules minde Arbitramur hominem iustificari fide absque operibus legis we suppose that man is iustified by fayth without the works of the law Thus in the poynt of iustification workes are excluded as he sayde immediately before VVhere is then thy boasting it is excluded By what lawe of workes no but by the lawe of fayth Althoughe our workes are not at all excluded in respect of the fruites of those that are already iustified For they are ipsius factura c. His workemanshippe created in Iesu Christ in good workes which God hath prepared that we shoulde walke in them But before this workemanshippe of Iustification we were but very enimies And therefore as sainct Augustine saith Quae merita bona tuÌ„c habere poter amus quando Deum non diligebamus VVhat good merites could we then haue when as yet we loued not God VVithout fayth it is impossible to please god And what soeuer is not of fayth is sinne Nowe this fayth which lykewise is not of vs but is the gifte of God we discerne from workes bicause it hath relation to the onely mercies of God promised in Christ vnto vs Which promises fayth catching holde vpon is the only meanes and instrumeÌ„t that God hath giuen vs to receiue the frée offer of his grace and to applie to vs forgiuenesse of our sinnes And so stedfastly beléening the same we are iustified by God onely as the efficient and actiue worker by Christ onely as the formall cause in whome our righteousnesse consisteth and by faythe onely as the instrument giuen of God vnto vs wherby we receiue the same And this sayth S Paule exemplifying it by Abraham Quid enim dicit scriptura For what sayth the scripture Abraham beleeued God and it vvas imputed to hym for righteousnesse But to him that worketh rewarde is not imputed according to grace but according to duetie But vnto him that worketh not but beleeueth in him that iustifieth the vvycked his faythe is imputed to righteousnesse according to the purpose of the grace of God. And this is that we say fayth onely iustifieth that is fayth is the onely eye that séeth the onely hande that catcheth holde vpon the onely meanes whereby we receiue the onely instrument wherewith we applye to our selues
sticke at that ye will not sticke and make that false that ye graunt true or else ye proue master Feck not to be ignorant contrarie to his defence and all the rest of your owne défence of him as we shall sée your wordes afterwarde In the meane time let vs sée howe pretily ye shift off the matter onely bicause the Bishop names Tho. of Aquine a schole Papist for the diuision of Ignoraunce thinking ye haue gotten a wonderfull aduauntage thereby for the Popes supremacie But nowe sayth M. Stap. the verye authour brought forth by master Horne so fullie and effectually dischargeth M. Feck of all three and chargeth M. Horne with the worst of them three that is wilfulnesse and malice as he shal winne small worship by alleaging of S. Thomas For S. Tho. sayeth plainely that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the onely supreme heade of the whole Church Nowe fearing as not without good cause that the B. would in this matter reiect the authoritie of this Thomas whom our Thomas calleth a late latine writer and to much affectionate to the Pope as it were by preuention He can not well reiect his authoritie sayeth he vsing it him selfe And why so Sir I pray you must euery one that citeth him in any one poynt receyue and admit his authoritie to in euerie poynt Is it lawfull for the Sorbonistes the Scholemen and the whole rabble of the Papistes yea for Thomas Stapleton him selfe to accept Thomas of Aquines authoritie in some poyntes and to reiect his authoritie in other some poyntes and is it not lawfull for the Bishop or anye other to vse the same libertie The Sorbonistes affirme of this Thomas Illa doctrina non potest esse in omnibus sic approbata c. That doctrine can not in all thinges be so approued that conteyneth many thinges erronious in fayth but as they say the foresayde doctrine of Saint Thomas not onelye in the matter of the absolute necessitie of a creature c. but also in manye other thinges conteyneth manye matters erronious in fayth And againe Non oportet credere c. VVee muste not beleeue that the doctrine it selfe is in no parte thereof erronious or hereticall wherein are conteyned manye contrarieties and repugnancies yea euen in the matter perteyning to the sayth â–ª but manye suche contrarieties and repugnancies are conteyned in the doctrine of Saynt Thomas Agayne 〈◊〉 dicunt aliqui c. And some saye for thys that manye maye denye the glosses of the decrees and Decreâ—… when the glosse doeth openlye denye the texte and lykewyse some saye of the ordinarye glosses of the Byble that notwithstanding seeme to bee of greater authoritie when they are alleaged for authoritie than is the Doctryne of Saint Thomas The sixte example maye bee giuen of certayne Doctours whiche are not canonized Saintes as the venerable Anselme Byshoppe of Cant. Hughe of Saint Victor and certayne other whose sayinges or wrytinges are in certayne poyntes founde erronious and yet theyr doctrine seemeth to bee no lesse authenticall than the doctrine of Saint Thomas sithe they are of the skilfull in their scolasticall actes alleaged for authoritie nor are wonted to bee denyed but their sayinges reuerently to be glosed and expounded whiche notwythstanding the Schoolemen are not woont to doe on the sayinges of Saint Thomas and therefore it seemeth presumptuous so to extoll hys Doctrine ouer them and other Doctours that wee maye not beleeue and affirme that hee erred in fayth euen as other also haue erred And after this as likewise before reckoning vp diuerse errours these spéeches are common Ista locutio est de virtute sermonis falsa multum impropria c. This speech in the force of the wordes is false and verie improper Ista doctrina multos errores continet c. This Doctrine conteyneth manie errours Uidetur multipliciter erroneum c. It seemeth diuerse wayes erroneous Deficit in multis c. If fayles in many poyntes Non est verum c. It is not true Et breuiter haec alia multa erronea falsa impropriè dicta videÌ„tur multis in praedicta doctrina contineri quae tamen ex taediâ—… pertransimus And briefly these and many other erronious false improper sayings seeme to many to be conteyned in the foresaide doctrine the which notwithstanding we ouerpasse for tediousnesse And from hence they discend to manifest errours in diuinitie And in conclusion write thus of him They say also that in verie many places of his doctrine he erred by reason of this that he applied to much the principles of philosophie or rather certaine wordes of Philosophers to the conclusions of Diuinitie Thus say the great Censors of the Popish doctrine agaynst Thomas of Aquine so well they agrée togither in vnitie of doctrine obiecting discorde vnto vs Yea the whole swarme of Papists not excepting our Thom. St. here him selfe vnlesse he be returned to the truth since he wrote his booke reiecteth and condemneth Thom â–ª of Aquines iudgement and authoritie in one of the most necessarie matters of Christian religion namely the doctrine of iustification For expounding this sentence of S. Paule Arbitramur hemâ—…neÌ„ iustificari absque operibus legis Arbitramur enim nos c. For we being taught of Christ thinke sayth Thomas according to the truth of the Apostle that euerie man whether he be Iewe or Gentile is iustified by faith Actes 15. By fayth purifying their hearts that without the workes of the law and that not onely without the ceremoniall works which did not giue grace but also without the works of the moral commandements according to that saying to Titus 3. Not of the works of the righteousnes that we haue wrought The reason is presumed that we are saued for our merits the which he excludeth when he sayth not of the works of the righteousnesse which we haue done But the true reason is the onely mercy of god There is not therefore in them the hope of iustification sed in sola fide but in fayth alone VVorkes are not the cause that any bodie is iust before God but they are rather executions and the manifestings of righteousnesse Where Tho. of Aquine thus according to Gods worde speaketh the truth as in this poynt here of iustification the Bishop and all other faythfull receyue his iudgement and admit the same with better reason than the Papists reiect it But where as in many other poyntes he swarueth from the truth though the Papists saint him neuer so much yet there all true saintes with good reason refuse him As in this that master Stapleton citeth out of him who confesseth him selfe that Thomas being a late latine writer wrote partiallye in this poynte bycause hée was to muche affectioned to the Pope and shall we beléeue such an affectionate wryter in hys partiall affection Or shall we beléeue master Stapleton no
degenerate from true godlinesse into a kinde of Pharisaical righteousnesse or rather into a shew of righteousnesse the which is more cleare than that it can be denyed And afterwarde complayning further of the Popishe fastes and other abuses he sayth His similes sunt plerique nostrum c. The most of our men are like vnto these he meaneth the Phareseys that iudge they keepe the lawes then when they follow externally the letter of the law when they do nothing lesse as appeareth by them that are ydle on the feast dayes and giue themselues to ryot neglecting those thinges that are perteyning to the Sabaoth Of those also that thinke they fast when they eate but once a day but so daintilye and they so glutte themselues that they feele no hunger all day long On the contrarie they iudge not him to fast but to transgresse the commaundement that compelled by pouertie necessitie or labour doth eate but sparingly often tymes a day And a little after These thinges doe flatly fight with the doctrine of christ For first it impugneth the fayth secondly charitie which two Christ did chiefly touch For this cause therefore he doeth so often blame them But if we marke our selues we shall see our selues to be euen the most culpable in the same thinges For commonly our righteousnesse is set most in outwarde thinges I damne not outwarde thinges for who hauing his right wittes woulde or coulde so do But I say they suffice not to saluation And as I sayd a litle before of the precept of keeping the Sabaoth two things are commaunded First the bodies rest secondly and principally the rest of the old man from his workes so say I now euery precept requireth two thinges that is to wete the outwarde worke the heart that principally which Christ declared inough Math. 5. But wee neglecting that which is principally exacted do stick onely in the externall things The same may I say of the ecclesiastical coÌ„stitutions they giue not holinesse but shewe it further it as for ensample true religion consisteth not in this that thou shouldst weare this or that habit but in this that if thou be dead to the world thou liue to god to this point outward things do also not a litle further thee so the true worship of god is if that in spirite and truth thou worship the father But hereto the externall worship doth stirre thee vp The same also is to be said of fasting coÌ„fession prayer c. which chiefly coÌ„sist in the hart But we neglecting these things which are most necessarie do please our selues about the outwarde things onely Thus sayth Ferus of your Popishe fast conteyning farre worse errors than Aerius not putting of difference but belike he shal be an Aerian to The third thing M. St. obiecteth to vs out of Aerius is that he sayd the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse If you were not also dead and fruitlesse for any trouth in you Master Stapleton ye would neuer make such a lying sacrifice of your Priestes lippes for shame As though Aerius were counted an Heretike for denying the propiciatorie sacrifice as ye call it of the Masse which ye say is auaylable and meritorious not onely for the liuing but also for the deade to deliuer them from the fayned paynes of purgatorie Whereas if he had affirmed at that time any such thing he should himself haue bene counted a straunge and new monstrous Heretike For as then nor long after neither your pardons and indulgences nor your trentals and Diriges neyther your satissactions nor your oblations neither your Masse of Requiem nor your soule Priestes to sing or say it were extant or deuised Errours in déede there were about the dead both then and long before and suche as after gaue occasion to these your gainfull deuises And if Aerius had denyed such errours or such errours had then bene practised he had béene no Heretike for denying them but rather such Heretikes as had mainteyned them Which the godly fathers did not but acknowledged and knew of no other place eyther of ioy or torment after this lyfe but onely of heauen and hell A thirde place sayth Saint Augustine that writeth of thys Aerius Penitus ignoramus VVe are vtterly ignorant of nor we can finde any such in the scriptures And yet must Saint Augustine néedes haue knowne and acknowledged such a thirde place of deliueraunce of the deade if he had ment of prayer and oblation for theyr deliuerance as you do meane But he flatly denieth the knowing of any such place it followeth then that wryting thus of Aerius either he was in the same Heresie denying any place for the dead to be holpen out of and wherto then should such praier serue or oblation for deliuering them out of a place of torment since there were no such place of torment so he confirmed Aerius his saying or else he must runne yet into a greater error and absurditie that the deade being in one of these two places heauen or hell they were there holpen by such prayers and oblations But for those that are in hell the scripture is flatte their worme shall neuer die their fire is vnquenchable and euerlasting the riche Glutton coulde not get from thence nor finde any neuer so little ease from his torments Ab inferno nulla est redemptio From hell there is no redemption And this knewe saint Augustine well ynough that sayth Duae quippe habitationes vna in igne aeterno altera in regno aeterno There are two dwellings the one in fire eternall the other in the Kingdome eternall And againe Scitote vos c. Knowe ye that when the soule is parted froÌ„ the bodie streightwayes either it is for his good deedes placed in paradise or else certainly for his sinnes cast headlong into hell fire choose nowe that you like either to reioyce euerlastingly with the Saints oâ—… without ende to be tormented with the wicked This was the foule and great errour of Origene Saint Augustine was not infected therewith nor any godly father of his time muche lesse Epiphanius that was an earnest condemner of Origene Although the Papists be not cleare of this errour that say they haue deliuered and can deliuer soules euen out of hell as they tell howe Pope Oregorie deliuered Traian an infidell Prince and howe his mother condemned and tormented in hell fire for hir whoordome was deliuered from thence by him through a trentall of Masses Nowe as for the soules that on the other side be in heauen the other place I thinke Saint Augustine was neuer so farre ouershotte to say or thinke that such prayers coulde ease or deliuer them from paynes that were in the ioyes of heauen What then remayneth to thinke of saint August noting Aerius of Heresie herein We shall the better perceyue this if we marke the errours that many of the Grecians and Egiptians had
¶ The Supremacie of Christian Princes ouer all persons throughout their dominions in all causes so wel Ecclesiastical as temporall both against the Counterblast of Thomas Stapleton replying on the Reuerend father in Christe Robert Bishop of VVinchester and also Against Nicolas Sanders his Uisible Monarchie of the Romaine Church touching this controuersie of the Princes Supremacie Ansvvered by Iohn Bridges The Princes charge in his institution to ouersee the direction of Gods lawe DEVTER 17. After he shall be settled in the throne of his kingdom he shal write out for himself in a volume the copie of this Law taking the same of the Priests of the Leuitical tribe and he shal haue it with him reade it al the days of his life that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and keepe the wordes and ceremonies of him which are written in this law c. ¶ PRINTED AT LONDON by Henrie Bynneman for Humfrey Toye 1573. · HONI · SOIT · QVI · MAL · Y · PENSE · E. R ¶ To the moste high and moste excellent Princesse Elizabeth by the grace of God Queene of Englande France and Ireland defender of the Faith of Christ and in earth next vnder God of the Church of England and Ireland in all Ecclesiastical and temporall causes the supreme Head Gouernor ALbeit most Gracious Soueraigne I might be vvoorthily noted of presumption in dedicating these my trauailes to your Maiestie as vvel for the basenesse of my skill calling as for the vnreuerent demeanour of the aduersaries that here I ansvvere vnvvorthie vvhom your Highnesse should deigne to loke vpon yet bothe bicause the matter entreateth moste of a Princes estate and that vpon the chiefest point therof belonging in general to al Christian Princes but in especiall to your Maiestie against vvhom they chiefly direct their malice and in maintenaunce vvhereof your Maiestie direct your gouernement and herein haue giuen a mirror to al christian Princes to folovv and be partakers in their common vveales of the lyke blessings wherwith God hath beautified your Highnesse and established youre authoritie I thought it therfore not vnfit setting my self and them aside with all such by matters as incidently fal out in disputation betvvixt the Bishop and master Feckenham of me these my aduersaries â–ª to conâ—…ecrate this argumente of Supremacie to youre moste excellent Maiestie as to vvhom chiefly in your dominions next vnder Christ it dothe pertaine VVhich your Highnesse so nobly maintaines by practise of godlie gouernment hovve euer we by the vvord and argument do defend it There is no controuersie at this day betvvixt vs and the enimies of the gospel more impughed thaÌ„ this one of the Supremacie nor more bookes compiled more libels scattered more vaunts made of truth on their partie more sclaunders deuised of oure doctrine and your Maiesties Title more secrete conspiracies and open treasons against your Royal person and state of the Realme than our aduersaries make only for this Supremacie Shall Sathan then vse al this double diligence in promoting the pride tyrannie of his Antichrist the man of sinne the foreigne vsurper of all Christian kingdoms and shall the children of god be negligent in defence of the kingdom of Christ of the Lordes anoynted of the dutifull office and lavvfull authoritie of their naturall Soueraigne â–ª Other meanes I graunt may be had to suppresse their furious dealing And God bee blessed therefore that hath furnished your Maiestie vvith povver couÌ„sell authoritie lavv vvisedome learning vertue courage and al other Princely habilities â–ª suffiâ—…iet to maintein your Highnesse Title protect that portion of Christes Church vvhich he hath committed to your most Gracious gouernment in peace and truth prosperously 〈◊〉 your enemies VVherein as your Maiestie hath euer most zâ—…lously sought and set forth the glorie of god â—…e hath so glorified you again as he hath promised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 glorificabo that your highnesse may say as king Dauid sayd â–ª he hath deliuered you out of your enimies hands and defeated all their purposes he hath established you a kingdom here on earth in peace and righteousnesse and hath prepared in heauen a Kingdom for you in glorie and eternitie Novv although this be so cleeâ—…e that euen the enimies themselues coÌ„fesse God vvorks vvith you God fights for you God hath takeÌ„ your hart into his handes that haue taken his quarel into yours yet sith the 〈◊〉 do mutteâ—… sclander your Highnesse to take suche kind of GouernmeÌ„t on you as vvere not coÌ„petent as the Pope had vvont to do your Highnes is furthest from if this your claime be not proued to be grouÌ„dedon Gods vvord if those enuious be not coÌ„â—…inced by euident argumeÌ„ts of the seripture al the foresaid prosperitie is couÌ„ted but earthly blessings and such as other vvorldly Princes haue All the due authoritie is 〈◊〉 but extorted violence neither is the mouth of the adoersarie stopped neyther is the mind of the subiect satisfied And therfore vvhen al is don â–ª there is no better meanâ—… to may 〈◊〉 this Title than euen by learning 〈◊〉 for to me it to the vttermost and to fight vvitâ—… the vveapon of Gods vvord for it vvhicheâ—…s sharpeâ—… to vvoâ—…nde the aduersaries heart and conscience than any tvvo edged svvord But some vvil say this is sufficiently done by otherâ—… learned labours vvhen both in the dayes of your Maiesties Father of most renoumed memorie euen the best learned of our aduersaries did not only confesse it but vvrote so effectually in defence therof that shamefully aftervvard reuolting their guiltie conscieÌ„cebore vvitnesse against themselues nor they coulde euer ansvvere their ovvne vvritings And also after that in the godlie gouernment of youre Highnesse blessed Brother many other more excellent fathers in vvriting did confirme it And novv lastly in this your Maiesties happie Reigne diuers famous and lerned men to the further confirming of the godlie and confounding the enimie therein haue vvritten vppon this argument Yet sith oure aduersaries haue neuer doone thervvith but sette on a freshe lyke to him that vvhen in vvrastling he was euer cast of pride and vainglorie vvoulde neuer acknovvledge that he had any fall I thought good to make euident to all your Maiesties subiects euen to the enimies themselues the places vvhere they shamefully fel and lie stil in their errour rather than to vvrastle vvith such vvarblers And yet if they start vp again to trie a further pluck vvith them and by the strength of Gods inuincible truth so to ouerthrovv them that as fast as they boast cauill and sclaunder the truth of our cause and the goodnesse of your Maiesties quarell shall shevve it selfe the cleerer although the simplier handled A number of other vvhom I knovve coulde haue done it farre better vvho may also at their discretions further trauaile in it And in deede vvhere the most of this vvas done a good vvhile sith it vvas layde aside thus long expecting if any other vvould attempte it
This worthie Champion ibid. Of his noble worke and of his noble holy martyr ibid. This worthie article ibid. Like to capitaine Kets tree of reformation ibid. Ye make your reckoning without your hoste 68. a. Your reformation or rather deformation 68 b. Master Hornes foolish figuratiue diuinitie 69. a. The great weight of so mightie a proufe 69. b. Master Horne of his great gentlenesse 69. b. These mē make a very VVelshmans hose of Gods word 70. a So aptly and truly you alleage you doctors 73. b. This good Antiquarie and Chronographer 76. b. Gayly and iolilie triumpheth 77. a. Verie good stuffe as good pardie as master Hornes owne booke and as clerkely and as faythfully handled 77. a. O what a craftie Cooper smooth Ioiner is M. Horne 77. b. Your handsome holy dealing 78. a. You are worthie exceeding thankes 78. a. A'iolie marginall note 78. a. O more than childishe folly 78. a. That craftie Cooper ibid. As wise as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a saddle for as well doth a saddle fit a Cowe 78. b. Such beggerly shifts ibid. Ye haue demeaned your selfe so clerkly and skilfully ibid. Such a personage as ye counterfait 80. a. This blessed Martyr ibid. Ye are a very poore silly Clarke ibid. M. Foxe will not suffer ye to walke post alone ibid. That I may a little roll in your rayling rhetoricke ibid. Your dearlings the Grecians 80. b. Seeing ye deale so freely and so liberally 81. a. Ye haue iuggled in one 82. a. Ye haue so craftily conueyed your galles 82. a. Your darke sconce a sconce of dimme light 82. a. The new pretended clergie the pretended Bishops 84. a. To all this and all other his frumpes and scoffes he may be aunswered with his owne wordes Modestia vestra M Horne not a sit omnibus hominibus Let your modestie M. Stapleton be knowne to all men 435. b. His owne obiection of bragging This is but an impudent facing and bragging 4. a. His fourth common place of bragging In his first Preface NOt beeing able to alleage any authour that maketh not for vs pag. 7. Doe what ye can c. 15. You haue in this replie a iust and a full defence 22. I haue replyed throughout 22. I haue not omitted anie one part or parcell 22. I haue aunswered the whole 22. I wishe that the most honourable c. would commaund you to proue it so to the worlde 22. I haue here replied to all and euerie part 22. If truth be on your side ye haue no cause to sticke hereat ▪ c. go through therefore as you haue begonne c. if ye thinke your foundation good c. go through I say c. if ye now draw backe men will laugh you to scorne 23. The dealing of the Catholike writers is so vpright that suche small occasions must be piked c. else against their dealings haue ye nothing to say 18. Your cause I assure you will come forth starke naked feeble and miserable 19. After all this strugling and wrastling agaynst the truth by you and your fellowes master Iewell and the rest the truth is dayly more and more opened illustred and confirmed and your contrarie doctrine is or ought to bee disgraced and brought in vtter discredite 8. In the seconde preface I VVas fully purposed hauing so largely prouoked suche sharpe aduersaries especially master Iewel for a season to rest me and to stande at mine owne defence if any woulde charge me 24. I haue shaped to the whole booke a whole and full Replie wherein I rather feare I haue sayd to much than to litle 25. Thy religion is but a bare name of religion and no religion in deede 27. These be such absurdities as euery man of meane consideration seeth and abhorreth 28. The primacie of the Bishop of Rome is euidently here proued 28. Master Hornes whole aunswere is but as it were a vayne blast 29. The sea Apostolike is the fountaine and welspring of all vnitie in the Catholike faith 33. Neither shall we euer finde any cause of good and sufficient contentation till we returne thither 35. In the answere to the Bishops Preface AS I assuredly vnderstande that the reuerende father my Lorde Abbate of VVestminster fol. 1. a. But this may I boldly say and I doubt nothing to proue it that in all his booke there is not as much as one worde of Scripture one Doctor one Councell general or prouincial not the practise of any one countrey throughout the world counted Catholike that maketh for such kinde of regimēt as master Horne auoucheth nor any one maner of proufe that hath any weight or pith in the world to perswade I will not say master Feckenham but any other of much lesse wit learning and experience 3. a. I say master Horne commeth not once nighe the principall matter in question 3. a. I say further in case we remoue and sequester all other proufes on our side that M. Horne shall by the verie same fathers Councels and other authorities by himselfe producted so be ouerthrowne in the chief and capitall question vnto the which he cōmeth not nigh as a mā might say by 1000. miles that his own cōpany may haue iust cause to feare c. 3. a I say and master Feckenham wil also say that euen M. Horne himselfe retreateth so farre backe c. 3. b. The premisses then being true and of our side abundantly proued and better to be proued as occasion shall serue as nothing can effectually be brought against them 4. a. Ye haue not no nor ye can not proue any such matters 4. b. In the first booke I Must be so bolde by your leaue as plainlie and bluntlie to go to worke with you as I haue done before with master Grindall and master Iewell 7. b. The Queene cannot make you Lord Bishop of VVinchester as I haue otherwhere sufficiently proued in the Fortresse of of our first faith annexed to venerable Bede 8. a. Luther and Caluine and other being therewith pressed were so messhed and bewrapped therein that they could not in this world wite what to say thereto answering this that they wist nere what nor at what point to holde them 8. a. The Protestants wonderfully troubled about the question of the continuall succession of Bishops 8. a. VVhat haue ye to iustifie your cause 8. b. Master Horne can not defende and maintaine his herisies nor himselfe to be a Bishop by anie law of the realme 9. a. The Catholikes not suffered to replie least their aduersaries weakenesse should as it would haue done in deede and now daylie doth God bee praysed euidently and openly haue beene disciphered and disclosed 13. a. I dare vndertake that not onely master Feckenham but manie mo that nowe refuse shall moste gladly take the saide othe 31. a. VVhat should I reason further with this man. 32. b. Notwithstanding all your great bragges and this your clerkly booke ye knowe not nor neuer shall know but that the
ill matter Ye meane well I dare say for ye good man when ye talke of reuolting from the religion by him receyued at baptisme and the faith of Christes catholike churche meaning your popishe religion and churche and manie times ye wishe the Bishop to acknowledge it but he and all godly wise men doo sée howe you are deceyued in your well meaning by euill and false assumptions takyng that for Christs catholik church which is not nor the popish faith is that faith which we professed at baptisme but a degenerate faith Nor Master Feckenham was baptized if he were rightly baptized in the name of the Pope or the Popes religion Which if you doe meane your selfe meane not so well to him as you pretende Now for the vntruth of the Bishops well meaning to M. Feckenham be the cause as it be may this way or that howe dare you so boldely anouch that it is incredible the B. shoulde meane him well Beware M. St. ye presume not to sit in Gods seate the hart of man which for meaning is only knowne to God and the meaner Quiâ—… enim hominum scit quae sunt hominis nisi spirituâ—… hominis qui in eo est For what man knoweth the things that are of man but the sprite of man that is within him A certaine friend of yours standing by and hearing what I had declared then to the honorable in your commendation did shortly after reporte the same vnto you The. 11. vntruth There was no such reporte made Any aâ—…nswere were néedlesse but that the facing of this man is shamelesse that denieth so boldely he knoweth not what The right honorables God be praysed be yet aliue to whom the Bishop reported it the stander by at the same time as those right honorables can tell was a Gentleman named M. White of Southwicke whome since God hath called away which openly to M. Feckenham in the hearing of the Bishop and all other present declared that he hearde the Bishop speake to the honourable in his comendation Al this notwithstanding 〈◊〉 in M. StapletoÌ„ like another suborned Stilpho that neyther was there nor as he confesseth in his Prâ—…face Pag. 24. had any skil of the priuate doingâ—… betwéenâ—… them and yet he steppeth in as boldely as though he had benâ—… the chiefe 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 denieth that there waâ—… any such reporte at all But to vse his owne termes what is impudencie if this be not Doubting that youâ—… confederats should vnderstand of your reâ—…olte 12. which they euer feared hauing experience of your shrinking from them at 13. Westminster in the conference there The. 12. vntruth slaunderous The. 13. vntruth notoriously slaunderous Here in your score are notched vp two seuerall vntruths in your answere bothe these two by contraction are but one vntruth â–ª and thus ye can not kéepe your tale Yea But this saye you incomparably passeth and farre excelleth all your foresayd vntruthes and so belike it maye goe well for two it selfe But wherefore is this so passing an vntruthe The bishop sayd his confederates feared his noueltie hauing experience of his shrinking from them To this you replie and say In what one point of religion did he shrinke from his companie and in the ende ye come in asking further VVhat shrinking in religion call ye this as though the Bishop had charged him with shrinking from them in religion Which if M. Feck had done then would they no longer haue feared it being alreadie done but they were afterward afrayd of his shrinking in religion séeing his shrinking from them in that so péeuishly they stacke to their obstinate refusal wherin your self coÌ„fesse they refused to obey the Queenes highnesse coÌ„mandement And the lesse matter ye wold make it the lesse ought they to haue shewed such disobedience had they ben good subiects as they preteÌ„d or had they in déed stuck to their cause But they shronke froÌ„ their cause which of likelyhood they suspected Howbeit M. Feck seing not so much in it as they he as you say for his parte thought it not good to disobey the Queenes highnesse commandement and so therin shranke from them This Master Staple your self confesse and so or euer ye wist ye clere the Bishop of this incomparable vntruth Ye semed in our conference before had resolued The. 14. vntruth that M. Feck should giue vp his treatise in writing after he was resolued by M Horne And in his counterblast How vnlikely a tale is this that Maister Feckenham should either bee resolued by Maister Horne or beeing resolued shoulde then giue vp his matter in writing for none other cause than M. Horne reporteth I durst make any indifferent man iudge yea a number of M. Hornes owne sect there is no apparance there is no colour of this matter and therfore I wil be so bold as to adde this to his other vntruthâ—… This vntruth springeth of two causes the one the vnlikelyhod of the matter the other M. StapletoÌ„s boldnes for he wil be so bold as to score it vp But I pray you M. Sta. is euery vnlikelyhood an vntruth with you ye are ouer bold that dare so affirme Were ye present there Did ye see the dealing can ye tel the coÌ„trary No â–ª How dare ye then say it â–ª write print it to all the world that it is an vntruth Is this sufâ—… proof to say it is vnlikly to be Ergo it is not to presse this vnlikelyhood the sorer there is no apparance say you there is no color in this matter In déed here ye say truer thaÌ„ ye are aware there is no colour nor apparance â–ª but the very truth it selfe in that the B. sayd neither yet an vnlikely truâ—…h therin Nay say you I dare make any indifferent man iudge yea a number of M. Hornes owne sect that it is not lykely that M. Feck should be resolued or should giue vp his treatise in writing â–ª after he was resolued by M. Horne What man if you remember you but of youre own of your maister D. Hardings inconstancie and other a number euen of youre owne sect ere this ye may find likelyhod inough of M. FeckenhaÌ„s resolution yea euen in himself in K. Henries dayes and therfore bewarâ—… whom ye make iudge in the matter of this vnlikelyhood But setting like or vnlyke apart may a man be so bold as to say that your selfe so boldly charging the B. with an vnlikely vntruth make a manifest vntruthe for the B. said not aâ—… you tel the tale that M. Feck was resolued or that he wrote his treatise after he was resolued but that he seemed resolued these were the bishops words And so he likewise said before that he semed resolued in a maner fâ—…lly satisfied that he semed openly to haue little matter to stand in but that he was resolued that is to say fully persuaded the B. might haue some cause for all his hope to dout knowing that
markes and haue al mens eyes fixed theron your selfe not fixing your owne eyes on the very marke set vp betwéene them graunt that the B. hitte at the full that which he shot vnto Which graunted the arrow so reboundeth on you your cause that it quite ouerturneth both But M. St. hauing now espied that he hath graunted that which he sawe aâ—…nswereth sufficiently M. Feck issue and also confoundeth these new and false principles and yet he could not for shame playnly recaÌ„t nor reuoke his grauÌ„t he first begiuneth â–ª to pinch nip it saying it is true princes may haue dealing in eccl. matters but in some meaning by whiche some meaning what he meaneth as he dare not here for shame vtter so he quickly slippeth froÌ„ it telling vs it reacheth not home and that the B. doth but face and bragge thinking euery man borroweth of his coÌ„mon places And so to knit vp with his own words is much labour vainly and idelly employed with â—…edious and infinite talke and babling al from the purpose and out of the matter which ought specially to haue bene iustified not in stead thereof to detayne and delude the reader with these newe sixe markes and false presupposed principles The third part of this diuision is his quarelling with the B. for saying he made proofe euen by many Papists them selues Which part he distributeth into thrée members the first he calleth in the margent the vneuen dealing of the Protestants the secoÌ„d a chalenge to M. Horne and the third M. Hornes tale incredible First for the vneuen dealing of the Protestants Now is it worthy saith M. St. to see the ioly pollicie of this man and how euen and corrâ—…spondent it is to his fellow Protestants M. Iewell restrayneth the Catholikes to sixe hundreth yeares as it were by an extraordinarie and nevv found prescription of his owne embarring al latter profes yet he him selfe in the meane tyme runneth at large almoste one thousande yeares later shrynking hether and thither taking tagge and ragge Hereâ—…ike and Catholike for the fortifying of his false assertions When ye haue proued the B. of SaruÌ„ his assertions false then cal them so for before while ye complayne of the Protestantes vneuen dealing ye shal shew most vneuen dealing in suche a Papist as your selfe As with all you shew your ioly Logike that you crake so much vpon how euen correspondent it is to reason M. â—…uel restrayneth the Papists to 600. yeres to proue their articles by Ergo he can not confute their articles with their own coÌ„fessions that are of later yeres As for the tag and rag and mag too that he hath improued them withall be euen them selues their owne ragged rabbines and tagged scholemen be they heretikes or be they catholikes But be they as ye please to call them dothe the limitation of your proues restrayne his improues What if he improued your articles euen by your own mouthes who are now oxtant might it be lawfull for you to câ—…yne yet more newe articles and to alledge proues for them of your own time bicause he confuteth them by proues of your owne tyme this belike were euen dealing with you to let you haue so large scope to proue articles as the improuer may haue to confute theÌ„ But as it is good reason ye should for the profe of your articles be content for shame with so large a scope of 600. yeres nexte after Chrisâ—…e so haue ye accepted thys limitation already and M. Harding your standard bearer your selfe with many of your partners haue vndertaken to bring foorth your proues according to that restraynt of 600. yeres How ye haue done it Scripture as they say maketh mention let the readers iudge Belike your selues doubt of those proues and therfore groyne now at length to be so restrayned for your proues and fayne woulde haue a larger scope saying this is an extraordinarie and nevve founde prescription of his ovvne embarring all later prooues it goeth harde with you he like that ye whine now so fast at that which ye receiued so lustily to soeme to and craked vpon before and now that ye can not proue any one of your articles in all that terme of 600. yeares â–ª ye coÌ„playne of vneuen dealing But what if ye had bene restrayned to the time of the primitine church ye would then haue made an outcrie and yet it had bene requisite that for articles of faith religion ye should not refuse to be restrayned euen to Chryst his Apostles And least ye should thinke we deals vneuenly with you wheras you for to proue those articles of your religion haue the scope of 600. yeres next after christ limit you vs for any one articls of our fayth or religion euen to the time of Christ and his Apostles abode on earth So farre within 600. that we wil proue it euen within sixe score yea within sixe yeres if ye wil. So little haue ye any iust cause to complayne of vneuen dealing â–ª But let goe this your fonde quarell agaynst the B. of Sarum and preserute your argument from him to the B. of Winchester your aduersarie This vvise trade say you this man keepeth also and to resolue M. Feck and settle his conscience he specially staieth him selfe vpon Platina Nauclerus Vâ—…spergensis Sabellicus Aeneas pius Volateranus Fabian PolychronicoÌ„ Petrus Bertradus BeÌ„no the cardinal â–ª DuraÌ„dus â–ª Paulus Emilius Martinus Penitentiarius Polid. Ver. and such like as he him selfe declareth other where and in this place also confesseth Now albeit the catholiks refuse no catholik writer nor in this matter haue cause so to do yet in a matter of such importaÌ„ce vvhich besides the losse of all temporall reliefe and besides bodily death importeth also euerlasting damnation to the catholikes if the case so stande as M. Horne and his fellowes beare vs in hand reason vvould he should haue fetched the substance of his profes much hier yea within the. 600. yeres whervnto they strayne and binde vs The effect of al this is that as the B. of Sa. hath done the B. of Wint â–ª must do the like or else they disagrée and is contriued in this argumeÌ„t If the B. of Saâ—… would haue the papists to proue those their articles vvithin the boundes of 600. yeres then should the B. of Winchester in this so 〈◊〉 an Article fetche the substance of his proufes vvithin those boundes But the B. of Winchester doth not this but to resolue M. Feckenâ—…am and setle his conscience stayeth him selt vpon Platina Nauclerus Abbas Ursperg Sabellicâ—… c. all popish and late writers Ergo Their doings are not euen and correspondent To this I answere no parte of this argument is true neither Maâ—…or Minor nor Conclusion The sequence of the Maâ—…or followeth not bicause the B â–ª of Sarum and the B. of Winchesters cause and occasion were nothing a like The Minor being of two partes both are false For first he fetcheth the
that vve vvere baptised in Sée what a wicked slaunder to couer your disobediēce ye charge your most gratious prince withall as though she went about to make you renie that fayth ye vvere baptised in And this ye doe euen where ye pretende to kneele on your knees vvith moste humble and lowely submission Sée what cankred hearts ye beare for all your counterfayte crouching If ye knowe M. Stap. the fayth ye were baptised in at least if ye were rightely baptised and be a true Christian man it is not in the name fayth or obedience of the Pope but in the name fayth and obedience of the father the sonne and the holy ghost and this fayth the Q. maiestie goeth so little about to haue you abandon that hir Graces supreme gouernemēt is chiefly directed to this end to haue ye without any superstition error idolatrie or any other pollution therof kéepe maintein it inuiolate as in baptisme ye promised to do and therfore this is not subiect like though ye be on your knees neuer so muche to accuse hir highnesse as to cause ye to abandon the fayth ye were baptised in She requireth ye to kéepe it not abandon it neither on the soden nor at leisure And if this were all the cause of your refusall of obedience as hir Grace neuer denied you it ye doe but slaunder hir so néeded ye not haue runne away nor shew yet such disobedience to hir authoritie since she euer graunted and maynteined the thing ye séeme to craue Howbeit your counterfeite humilitie detecteth it selfe to be very stubborne disobedience And that while ye pretende to craue one thing ye entende another thing And that is ye would be borne with still to refuse her graces supreme authoritie ouer you in Ecclesiasticall causes this is the thing in deede ye meane and ye would the rather be borne withall bicause it is a matter that commeth vpon the sodaine therefore ye can not vpon the sodaine graunt it In déede M. St. ye pretende reason Weightie matters require not to be done on a sodeyne passion but with deliberation ▪ But is this so sodeyne a matter yet vnto you did ye neuer heare of this questiō before haue ye not had leasure to deliberate thereon but who seeth not that and ye had neuer so much leasure this matter would still come vpon the sodeyne to you and of reason ye must haue time to take aduisement vpō it which you will take all at your leasure and so for feare ye should become an obedient subiect vpon the sodeyne ye craue to remayne still vpon deliberation an obstinate enemie But M. St. pretēding this refusall to be for the abandoning of the faith that we were Christened in procéedeth And as we are assured all our auncetours and her Maiesties owne most noble progenitours yea her owne most noble father King Henrie the eight yea that faith which he in a clerkly booke hath most pithily defended and thereby atchieued to him and his and transported as by hereditarie succession the worthie title and stile yet remayning in her Highnesse of the Defendour of the Faith. As ye slaunder most wickedly the Quéenes Maiestie to cause ye to abandon the faith of your baptisme ▪ so ye slaunder not only al our auncestors but that most famouse Prince her highnesse Father K. Henrie the 8. as christened in the faith of the Popes obedience hereof ye say ye are assured when it is most assured most euident false For although our fathers the Q. Maiesties father also yea many of vs our selues the Q. Maiestie also her selfe were borne and baptised when all the errours of poperie or many of them did chiefly abounde yet can no more any one of these be said now to be baptised in those errours that they helde which baptised them if they kept the right formall words of baptisme I baptise thée in the name of the Father of the sonne of the holy Ghost thā in the old time any of their childrē or they themselues could be saide to be baptised in such errours as they helde that were Nouatians Donatists Rogatists Pelagians or any other Heretikes that notwithstāding kept the right element formal words of baptisme Neither can any Papist say now to any that dissuadeth him from his popish errours that he goeth about to will him to abandon the faith wherein he was baptized any more thā a Pelagian or any such Heretike being moued to forsake his heresie could pretēd he were moued to forsake the faith he was baptised in bicause they that baptised him yea his auncesters before him were Pelagians c. Ye should therefore M. St. make your distinction betwene the faith of your baptisme and the faith that your popish Church putteth in diuers erronious pointes of doctrine As for the faith that K. Henrie the 8 ▪ the Q. Maiesties most noble Father set out in the Booke that ye mencion therby labour to stayne the Q. Maiestie as setting out a contrarie faith to her father as you for your parte M. St. shew your extreme malice nothing subiectlike to blemish her highnesse with the famous renown of her father which notwithstanding ye cā not do so for the King her father I answere you howbeit his booke were clerkly yet clerklines is one thing truth is an other what maruel if he thē wrote in defence of your doctrines whē your popish prelates hid the very truth frō him bore him in hand that your falshoodes were truth till it pleased God not to suffer so noble a Prince to be any longer deluded by such false prelates but first in this question after in other according to the measure of his merciful riches reueled the truth vnto him how chance ye speake not of his faith then what clerkly sincere doctrine he set out thē against your Pope And as for the Q. Maiestie herein which is the proper questiō now in hād followeth most zealously the steppes of her highnesse father not wherein he was abused as many other princes were by false teachers but in that he forsooke those errours he abolished those false teachers their captaines vsurped authoritie in that he obeyed the truth reueled to him before all his own clerkly bookes before all worldly glory securitie aduentured himselfe his kingdome against all his enemies in setting forth the truth gouerning his subiects after the word of god Which though it were not so plentifully set forth then nor all wéedes so thoroughly rooted vp by reason of some false Gardiners whom he trusted ouer much howbeit at lēgth thanks be to God he espied them also had procéeded furder if God had lent him furder life yet is he rather to be commended for that he did than to be euil spoken or euell thought of for that he could not throughly bring to passe in his time but left his most vertuouse Sonne King Edwarde to bring to more perfection
for so your booke will growe to a welfauoured volume The outcrie is here for a contradiction But ye should first cléere your selfe of your own foule contradictions before committed and then obiect contradiction to the Bishop But let vs sée what a sore contradiction it is Princes can not do certaine Ecclesiasticall actions Princes are supreme gouernours in Ecclesiasticall causes Here M. St. ye labour to shew where the Bishop saith so but ye should labour to proue them coÌ„tradictionâ—… but that ye take for manifest being manifest false Neither néede there any colour to defende these sayings from contradiction for it was euen the last thing that your selfe defended in putting a difference betwene a principal gouernment of matters and that gouernment that is exercised in doyng the actions of those matters And thus easily your self reconcile this great contradiction and aâ—…were your owne argument that ye make of the Bishop sayings reasoning thus He confesseth that those actions do not belong to the persons of Princes Ergo he confesseth that Princes are not supreme gouernours to direct and ouersee them This argument your owne distinction answereth And therefore where ye lappe vp the matter saying Thus ye see M. Horne walketh like a bare footed man vpon thornes not knowing where to treade ye should remember your selfe M. Stap. that you haue walked all this while like your barefooted goose that ye spoke of before not knowing what last ye creaked The sixth Diuision MAster Feckenham offreth to sweare to obserue and performe that obedience to the Queenes hignesse now that he did before vnto Queene Mary The Bishop sheweth how therein he was forsworne as he had helped to spoyle Q. Mary of a principall parte of hir royall power so would he with no lesse disloyaltie spoile the Queenes Maiestie now M. Stapl. taking after his fashion Non concedenda pro concessis saith the othe is vnlawfull likeneth it to wicked King Herodes othe denieth this gouernment to be any part at all of the Queenes royall power and auoucheth that if the Bishop can once by any meanes proue this gouernment to be a principall parte or any parte at all of the Queenes royall power he dare vndertake that not only M. Fek. but many mo that now refuse shall most gladly take the saide othe he were surely no good subiect that would wish hir highnes any wroÌ„g To wishe wrong to any body is naught in déede M. St. worse to do it but worst of al to wish and do it against your liege and soneraigne What wrong ye wishe and do by all trecherous practises vnto the Q. Maiestie is apparant and therefore your owne iudgement be on your owne head Ye liken hir highnesse to wicked King Herode euen here present yet ye say ye wishe hir no wrong But what reasons should moue ye M. St. to thinke this open wroÌ„g no wrong Neyther can say you the maintenance of the Catholike faith wherof she beareth a title of a defender be counted any iniurie to hir highnesse neither is it to be thought but if there had bene any wrong or iniurie herein done to the Crowne some Christian Prince or other in the worlde haue ere this once in this 1000. yeres more espied it and reformed it to This later argument of former Princes is answered aâ—… large alreadie The other argument standeth on M. Stap. former presupposall that the Popes supreinacie is the Catholike faith His reason is this The maintenance of the Catholike faith is no iniurie to the Queenes Highnesse But our refusall of the othe is the maintenance of the Catholike faith Ergo our refusall of the othe is no iniurie to the Q. Highnes Here where M. St. should proue the Minor being manifest false he letteth that go presupposing it is most true and confirmeth the Maior which none denieth She beareth a Title of defender of the Catholike faith Ergo The maintenance of the Catholike faith is no iniurie to â—…ir highnesse Of this Title we spake also before onely now I note his argument that here couertly he séemeth to make thereon The Qu. highnesse Title calleth hir defender of the faith Ergo If she should also haue the Title of supreme gouernour in all causes Ecclesiasticall then were the former Title iniurie to hir highnesse But the former Title of defender of the faith can not be counted any iniurie to hir highnesse Ergo She can not haue the other Title also This bald reason standeth vpon a presupposal in M. St. head that this is a principall article of the Faith. The Pope is onely head of the Catholike church But graunt not M. St. this his faithlesse principle and he wil proue but a sielie Defender of this His simple reason The seuenth Diuision MAster Feck pretending that he was by the Bishop required prouoked to sweare refuseth that parte of the Othe that toucheth the Quéenes supremacie in the causes Ecclesiasticall vnlesse the Bishop shew him the meanes how he may sweare without periurie The Bishops answere stands on two points the one to detect his false dealing to pretende that the Bishop required the othe The other that this his refusall of the later parte of the Othe is but his nice daliance in woords hauing graunted alreadie the matter in effect The B. reasoneth thus Euery Ecclesiasticall person is called Ecclesiasticall onely in respect of ecclesiastical functions things and causes belonging to ecclesiasticall persons But ye haue graunted that the Queenes highnesse is supreme gouernour ouer al persons in hir realmes so well ecclesiasticall as temporall Ergo ye haue graunted that she is the supreme gouernour ouer them in those their ecclesiasticall functions things and causes also M. Stapletons counterblast is thréefold the first against the Bishops argument The seconde as he calleth it is an heape of vntruthes wherewith M. Feckenham is falsly charged The thirde his shamefull sclaunders that the plague was sent of God to punish the doings of the Parliament that bicause the Bishop required the Othe of D. Bonner he therfore sought his bloud That our Bishops were no Churche Bishops nor parliament Bishops neither But these too friuolous partes I omitte it sufficeth to haue quoted the slannders in their common place As for the vntruthes are answered in their proper bedroll I will answere onely now that which is materiall and that counterblasteth the argument Yet once againe saith M. St. M. Horne taketh in hande M. Feckenhams graunt which may well be graunted and by â–ª his great cunning and skilfulnesse will thereof inferre as before that may not be graunted But now he spitteth in his hande and taketh faster holde as he thinketh and seing the lightnesse of his former reason woulde nowe giue greater weight to it with a new fetche but yet as light and as weake as the other and employing manifest contradiction as before and to be answered as before For albeit a man is not called an Ecclesiasticall person but
and therfore good reason that yours giue place to his senior the popish later base born religion of your Romish church to thâ—… first most auncient true religion of that Alpha Omega Iesus Christ himself Master Stap. hauing now set vp these two false markes like to one being out of his way that after he is once ouer his shooes in the myre careth not howe he benâ—…yre himselfe but running deeper through thicke and thinne cryeth this is the way to haue other to followe him so rusheth on master Stapleton still further from the issue and yet taketh euerye thing in his way to bée hys marke and directorie Setting vp the perticuler factes of those Princes that chalenge and take vppon them this supreme gouernement that the selfe same factes must be founde in the ensamples of the olde testament or else hée sayth the Bishop strayeth from the marke VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth sayth he to shew that in the olde lawe anye King exacted of the Clergie In verbo Sacerdotiâ—… that they shoulde make none Ecclesiasticall lawe without his consent as King Henrie did of the clergie of Englande Is this the marke master Stap. betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham to proue in their supreme gouerments euerye selfe same perticuler fact yea the circumstances about or concerning the fact to be all one in them that clayme this gouernment nowe and those that claymed it then since bothe the states the times yea all the ceremonies of religion of the Iewes then and ours nowe are nothing like and trow ye then the princes perticuler doings must be like and euen the same and euidence must be giuen out of the one for euery fact of the other or else their supreme authorities be not alike The issue betweene them is not so straight laced but requireth onely any such gouernment some such gouernment yea he it al suche gouernment to I meane not all suche actions in the gouernment but the supreme directing gouernance authoritie or powre are proued both alike in either princes estate so well ouer eccl. persons in all their functions then or now as ouer the temporall in theirs For by this rule wheras that most famous prince king Henry the eight did sweare also to his obedience all his temporall subiects in ciuill causes as other Princes likewise haue done and do it would be harde to alleâ—…ge an euidence thereof out of the old Testament and yet their supreme gouernments therin were not therefore vnlike As for the ministring of the othe is but a circumstance to confirme the matter and not the matter itselfe And if king Henry were by the obstinate and craftie malice of his popishe clergiâ—… then constrayned for his more assurance to take an othe or promise of them on the honestie of their priesthoode which God wâ—…t was but a small holde as it went then in the moste of them and that no king of those ancient yeres mentioned in the olde testament béeing not moued by the wickednesse or mistrust of his clergy tooke the like othe or promise of their priestes honestie or fayth of their priesthoodâ—… then what is this to or from the matter why their supreme authorities shoulde not be alike in bothe Do not you also say for your side that the highe Priest had suche supreme gouernment then as your Pope â—…othe chalenge now ouâ—…r all eccl. causes â—…nd dothe â—…ot your Pope nowe exacte of all his clergie in verbo â—…acerdotij by the worde of their priesthoode that they shall make no eccl. law without his consent May we not then returne your owne words on your selfe VVhat euidence can you bring foorth to shew that in the olde lawe any highe Priest exacted this of the clergie vnder him And if ye can not as ye can not dothe not then this your wyle reason and newe marke ouerturne the false clayme that your Pope claymeth of such supreme gouernment now as the high Priest had then But his clayme is false his gouernment nothing like For the high priest then tooke not vpon him to make eccl. lawes as doth now your Pope but only obserued such eccl. lawes as God had made to his hande till time of the Pharisies corruption who not content with Gods lawes had deuised besides many fond lawes of their own inuentions when there wanted amoÌ„g them this kingly authoritie To the which so long as it continued the high priest al other obeyed receyuing and obseruing such eccl. constitutions as their godly princes made vnto them So did Aaron first receiue the eccl. coÌ„stitutions of Moses So after him did alâ—…re residue admit the eccl. constitutions of Dauid the rest of the foresaid princes their priests made none of theÌ„ selues without the Princes consent But the princes ordâ—…ined diuers eccl. orders partly with the aduise and consent partly without yea agaynst the wil coÌ„sent of their clergy now then and yet those godly princes exacted of them euen as they were true priests as the stories of Iosaphat and Ezechias mention how they charged their priests euen in that they were the Lords priests which is all one with that you alleage in verbo sacerdotij that they should do suche things as they appoynted them to do And is not this good and authenticall euidence for king Henries doings but that the priests appoynted any suche ordinance without their princes consents will be harde for you to bring the like or any â—…uidence at all for your Popes exacting And if as ye conclude herevpon this exacting to make no eccl. law without his consent be to make the ciuil magistrate the supreme iudge for the final determinatioÌ„ of causes ecclesiasticall then your Pope hauing no such euidence for him by this your marke is no supreme iudge for suche finall determination but it â—…latly proueth agaynst you that the Princes should be the supreme iudges therein And if the exacting of consent importe suche supreme authoritie as héere ye confesse then whereas not onely these ancient kings but also the ancient christian Emperors in the confirming of your Pope exacted that none shoulde be a lawfull Pope to whome they gaue not their consent it argueth that those Emperours were the supreme Iudges for the finall determination of the Popes ecclesiasticall election Which afterwarde when ye come to the handling therof ye renie affirming that although his consent was necessarie to be required yet it argued no suche supreme iudgement in the matter And thus you care not may ye for the time shuffle out an answere howe falsly or how contrary ye counterblast your false The nexte marke is yet further wyde from the issue and more fonde than any of the other for abandoning his Pope and generall Councels VVhat can ye bring foorthe sayth he out of the olde Testament to aide and relieue your doings who haue abandoned not onely the Pope but generall Councels also and that by playne acte of Parliament And
to go vp to Ierusalem and there to be tryed in the assemblie of the highe Priestes So Athanasius abandoned the councels at Lyre Smirna and Ephesus â–ª So Maximus abandoned the Councell at Antioche So Pauiinus abandoned the Councel at Milayne So Chrisostome abandoned the Councell at Constantinople And so we abandoned the Popes violent councels at Rome and Trident that we might say with Dauid Non consedâ—… iâ—… consilio 〈◊〉 cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non introâ—…bo odi ecclesiâ—…m maligâ—…atium cum impijs non â—…edebo I haue not sitten in the counsell of vanitie I will not enter in with wicked doers I haue hated the Churche of the malignant and I will not sitte with the wicked These Councels we haue abandoned M. Stay. but no generall Councels wherein all things are tryed to be truthe or heresies by the touche of the worde of God and not by the Popes the councels or any creatures dâ—…cree besides Omnis homo mendax euery man is a lyer and the worde of God is onely the truthe of doctrine And therefore in all Councels we must crie with the Prophet Adlâ—…gem ad testimonium Let them râ—…nne to the lawe of God to the testimonie of his worde quod si â—…on dâ—…xerint iâ—…xta verbum hoc non erâ—…t eis â—…x 〈◊〉 If the Councell declare any thing to be heresie not according to the worde of God the morning light the 〈◊〉 of righteousnesse shall not shine on them but they shall erre in the shadowe of death But sayth Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vs eâ—…rare non possis followe the â—…pture that thou mayest not erre And if the Councell do not follow them we are made free from following yea licenâ—…ed to abandon and accurse those Councels by your owne Canons Sâ—… quis prohâ—…t vobâ—… quod a Domino 〈◊〉 est rursâ—…s imperâ—…t fieri quod Dominus prohibet exeâ—…rabilis sit ab omnibus qui dilâ—…nt Deum If any body forbid you that that is commanded of the Lorde and agayne commaunde that thing to be done that the Lorde hath forbidden lâ—…t him be accursed of all that loue the Lorde And your Abbote Panormitane willeth vs so to estéeme of your Councels without the scripture that plus credendum vel simpliâ—… lâ—…co 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 qâ—… toti simul conâ—… we muste more beleeue euen a simple lay man alleaging the scripture than all the whole Councell togither And your famous doctor Iohn Gersoâ—… Chauncelour of the vniuersitie of Paris sayth Prima veritâ—…s 〈◊〉 stat c. this truthe standeth first to weete that any simple man beeing not authorized may be so excellently learned in holy writ that we muste more beleeue his assertion in a case of doctrine than the Popes declaration bicause it is euident that we must more beleeue the Gospell than the Pope Neither sayth he thus for the Pope alone but euen for your Councels yea for generall Councels in sacris c. VVe must more beleeue an excellent learned man in the scriptures and alleaging the catholike authoritie than we muste beleeue euen a generall Councell Thus by your owne doctors yea by the Pope him selfe that sayth no proofe oughte to be admitted agaynst the Scripture we may and muste abandon your Councels wherein many things besides and many thinges expressely agaynst the Scripture are determined for truthe and the expresse truthe of the scripture is condemned for heresie And therefore where ye say we renounce them onely for this cause bicause they grounde not them selues on the authoritie of the Scriptures ye shewe a good cause to cleare vs of all heresies and errors and shewe sufficient cause withall why we admitte not your Councels nowe your obstinate frowarde heresies to be suche that ye can not aâ—…ouche for them nor defende them by the holy Scriptures The authoritie whereof if those your Councels doe adâ—…itte as did the olde generall Councels then the clause in the Act of ParliameÌ„t doth no more abandon your Councels than it reiecteth those foure firste or any other that grounde their proues thereon But ye haue some better reason belike why ye set vp this fourth markâ—… of abandoning the Pope and his councels to be exemplified in the olde Testament Partly and most of all say you I say it for an other clause in the Acte of Parliament enacting that no foreigne prince spirituall or temporall shall haue any authoritie or superioritie in this realme in any spirituall cause Either your fingers itche master Stapl. at this clause wherwith ye be pidling so often before ye come to the proper place where this is handled more at large Or else ye do vse the figure of anticipation so mutch and so impertinently to puffe vp your counterblast withall But were it the chiefest cause why ye set vp this marke bicause we reiecte all foraigne authoritie then hath the Bishop hit this marke also at the full euen in all these examples Excepte you can on the other side proue that these godly Princes admitted in their dominions the authoritie of any foraigne Prelate ouer them Of which till you shal be able to bring profe the commaunding and directing of their owne priestes as is sayde before yea euen of the highest Priest of all is argument sufficient to inferre that they admitted not any other straunge Priest ouer them all straunge Priests then béeing heathen Idolaters and therefore this clause of foraigne prelates is also by the Bishop out of the olde Testament fully proued But say you The Popes authoritie ecclesiasticall is no more foraigne to this Realme than the Catholike faythe is foraygne You say so M. Stapl. I will beare ye witnesse but ye shoulde proue it and not say so onely Neuerthelesse be it not foraigne then is he not excluded by that clause nor ye néede so storme thereat that it should be the cause moste of all why ye haue sayde all this and nowe ye lyke it vvell inough saying And yet mighte the Pope reforme vs well inough for any thing before rehearsed Why rehearsed ye this clause then and found most fault therwith since those words hinder nothing his clayme Sauing that say you he is by expresse words of the statute otherwise excluded How chaunce your quarell then M. Stap. is not at that exclusion But wilily ye sawe well inough that he is exempted euen in that he is a foraigne powre And had his name not bene exempted yet the clause that before tâ—…kled ye so muche though now ye would make so light thereat did fully exclude your Pope bicause he is a foraygne power Or elsefull fondly ye quarell moste at that wherat ye had no cause Yes say you there is a cause why I mislike this clause agaynst foraigne authoritie For then I pray you if any generall Councel be made to reforme our misbeleefe if we wil not receiue it who shall force vs And so ye see we be at libertie to receiue
vpon thē selues to whō they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemēt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both cōmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing frō it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing frō the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
his Legates â–ª Forsoothe when he dothe it then it is a principall matter it argueth his supremacie and therefore none can do it but he But nowe when examples are founde and alleaged that Christian Princes had wonte to doe it Ergo They were supreme then belike therein Nay then it argueth no supremacie then it is no principal matter nor any eccl. matter at al. Thus you play mockhalliday with vs and boe péepe as though we were children it is and is not When the Pope dothe it then it argueth a supremacie when the Prince dothe it then it argueth none And why so for sooth then the case is altered Thus do you dally out the matter and when any substantiall proufe is brought agaynst you either ye giue it suche a mocke as this or leape cleane ouer it as though ye sawe it not or in stéede of answere to that that is propounded propounde your selfe an other allegation which is clauâ—…m clauo pellere to driue out one nayle by another For to the allegation out of the Emperours Theodosius and Ualentinianus Epistle ye answere nothing but set a péece of another letter of Ualentinian to Theodosius in the téethe of it VVe sayth Valentinian to the Emperour Theodosius say you ought to defende the fayth which we receyued of our auncestors with all competent deuotion and in this our tyme preserue vnblemished the worthy reuerence due to the blessed Apostle sainct Peter so that the moste blessed Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath giuen the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all other may O moste blessed father and honorable Emperour haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes And for this cause the bishop of CoÌ„stantinople hathe according to solemne order of Councels by his Libel appealed vnto him And this is writteÌ„ M. Horne to Theodosius him selfe by a coÌ„mon letter of Valentinian And the Empresses Placidia Eudoxia which Placidia writeth also a particular letter to hir said sonne Theodosius and altogither in the same sense Héere ye clap vp a marginall note The Popes supremacie Proued by the Emperour Valentinian alleaged by M. Horne And héere agayne full triumphantly ye crie out HerkeÌ„ good M. Horne giue good aduertisemeÌ„t I walk not and wander as ye do here alleaging this Emperour in an obscure generalitie wherof cannot be enforced any particularitie of the principall question I go to worke with you playnly truely and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour by playne words the Popes supremacie the practise withall of appeales froÌ„ Constantinople to Rome Héere is a ioly face of this matter M. St. But yet héere is not one worde to answere the bishops allegation but to coÌ„mend your owne that ye set against it and so thinke ye answere it bicause it is of the same Emperour Ualentinian whom the bishop alleaged But such answere as it is sithe ye can make no other we muste take it or none at your handes Neuerthelesse since ye so crake that ye walke not and wander not in obscure generalities but go playnly and particulerly to worke if ye ment as ye say how chaunce ye open not any of the necessary particuler circumstances of the matter whervpon the Emperour wrote whiche might haue made this matter plaine would haue shewed what and wherin they coÌ„mended the B. of Rome and what authoritie belonged to the Emperour Yea if you had but set downe a little more largely the selfe same Epistles that ye cite the matter had beene a great deale more cleare Ye say also ye go truely to worke and yet you falsly translate euen those very words that ye cyte and so cutte them off ere ye come to the periode that that which shoulde haue shewed the matter to haue béene about a particular controuersie of the fayth then risâ—…n might séeme to be generally spoken of all controuersies And therfore ye leaue out these wordes For the controuersie of the faith that is sprong vp And where the wordes of your allegation are Locum habeat ac facultatâ—…m de fide sacerdotibus iudicare that he may haue place and leaue or facultie to iudge of the fayth and of the Priests you captiously and falsly translate it that he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes This subtile translation in generall ye vse to make it appeare that the Bishop of Rome hath a generall authoritie to be the chiefe Iudge to decide all doubtes in matters of fayth and to be the chiefe Iudge of all Priestes where your texte inferreth no suche thing Likewise where the Emperour sayth of the Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath yeelded the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all others ye conclude that by playne wordes is shewed the Popes supremacie and so sette vp your Marginall note The Popes supremacie proued by the Emperour Valentinian Where in your letter are no suche playne wordes of supremacie nor any proufe thereof at all Do you thinke that the Emperour acknowledged that supremacie which your Pope nowe chalengeth and vsurpeth not onely ouer all Priestes but ouer all Kinges and Emperours also No master Stapleton it is euident by the dealing of these Emperours and that euen in this matter that the Pope â—…ad no suche supremacie but the Emperour dyd those thinges then that your Pope dothe clayme nowe as further shall appeare in the proper treatise therof Your Pope nowe woulde be lothe to be suche an humble Lâ—… and fall downe to the Egles féete as the Pope dyd then to the Emperour whiche nowe ye make the Emperour doe to the Popes féete For why ye may â—…ay â—…empora mutantur nos mutamur in illis the tymes are changed and we are changed in them All the playne wordes and proues ye crake of for this supremacie are these that the Emperour sayth antiquitie gaue hym the principalitie of Priesthoode But there is a greate difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and supreme head or chiefe gouernour of Priesthoode or that all Priesthoode is deriued out of the Popes Priesthoode as diuers of your wryters affirme that Christe made Peter onely a Priest and all the other Apostles had their Priesthoode from him and so all other from the Bishop of Rome whome they call hys Successoure But as they erre in the office of Priesthoode wherof God willing we shall speake hereafter so whatsoeuer the office of their Priesthood was their saying is manyfest â—…alse For if Peter were a man as he confessed hym selfe to be S. Paule sayth he had not hys authoritie of men but immediatly of God and Peter gaue him nothing neither yet Iames nor Iohn And here if I might spurre you a question bicause master Heskins setteth oute his Parliament so solemnelie before his boke in pictures for the nonce making s. Iames the first that sayde Masse wherin he followeth the coÌ„mon opinion
of the Papistes I demaunde if Peter was made the first priest al other froÌ„ him how s. Iames could say the first masse that was said was Peter made Priest without singing or saying his first masse or any masse at al then belike Peter was no masse 〈◊〉 priest 〈◊〉 pope hath not hâ—… principalitie of priesthood froÌ„ Peter nor any priesthod at all from him for Peters was no massing Priesthoode suche as the Popes is and pretendeth to be the principall of that order But at your leysure answere this onely nowe I note that there is a great difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and the supremacie of all the Churche of Christe which is your conclusion and that that your Pope chalengeth But the Emperours words héere do nothing proue it And yet suche principalitie or excellencie of Priesthoode as it was it neither came from God nor from Peter for any thing that either is playnely alleaged or proued héere but rather the playne wordes are to the contrarie that this principalitie was yéelded and giuen to the Bishop of the Citie of Rome by men for so sayth the Emperour antiquit as contulit antiquitie gaue it Béeing partly moued with the opinion that Peter was bishop there and partly for that Rome was the auncient and moste famous Citie of the Empire as appeareth in the nexte Epistle of Placidia by you mentioned who calleth it Ciuitatem antiquam the auncient Citie and the Citie that is the Lady of all the Emperours Cities And therefore it became them to conserue the reuerence therof For which considerations that antiquitie gaue to it the principalitie and to the bishop therof Which principalitie of priesthoode or bishophâ—… was not aboue but vnder the principalitie of the Emperours estate as appeareth euen by these Epistles cited by you For first in the Epistle whereout ye take your allegation Ualentinianus telleth howe when he came to Rome I was sayth he bothe of the Romane Bishop and also of other that were with him gathered togither out of diuers prouinces entreated to write to your mildnesse saith Ualentinian to Theodosius of the fayth which beeing the preseruer of all faythfull soules is sayd to be troubled which fayth beeing deliuered vs froÌ„ our Elders we ought to defend with al coÌ„peteÌ„t deuotioÌ„ in our times to coÌ„serue vnblemished the dignitie of the reuerence proper to the blessed Apostle Peter so that the most blessed B. of the citie of Rome to whom antiquitie hath giuen a principalitie of Priesthood aboue all others may O most blessed Lorde Father and honorable Emperour haue place and facultie to iudge of the faith of the Priests and for this cause according to the solemnitie of Councels the Bishop of Constantinople hath appealed to him by his Libels for the contention that is sprong vp of the faith to him therefore requesting and adiuring me by our common sauing health I denied not to grauÌ„t thus much as to moue my petition to your mildenesse that the foresaid Priest meaning the Bishop of Rome all the other Priestes being also gathered togither through all the worlde within Italy all other former iudgement set aside may with diligent triall searching all the matter that is in controuersie from the beginning giue such sentence thereon as the faith and the reason of the true diuinitie shall require For in our times the frowardnesse of multitudes ought not to preuayle against religion since hitherto the faith hath bene conserued stedfast And to the more perfect instruction of your worthinesse we haue also directed the gestes whereby your godlinesse may know the desires and outcries of them all Thus farre the Epistle Which if ye had withall sette downe it wold haue dashed your Marginall note and conclusion of the Popes supremacie It would haue shewed that this principalitie of priesthoode was so vnder the Princes principalitie that the Pope was faine to labour to Ualeâ—…tinian and the Empresses also to write to Theodosius that he might haue place leaue to iudge the matter And that the place of iudging it might be in Italie and the Bishop of Rome might giue sentence not as he him selfe should please but conditionally as the truth should require and that thus he would admit the Bishop of Constantinoples appeale to take place and so he sendeth all the gestes of the matter for the Emperour to peruse and know them and to graunt their petitions and desires In all whiche things though there were a principalitie of the Priestes and Bishops and chiefly of the Bishop of the chiefe emperiall Citie olde Rome so farre as appertayneth to the debating discussing and iudging the doubtes in controuersie yet so farre as appertayneth to the licencing thereto the commaunding directing ordering setting out and maintayning euen of the same Synodicall iudgements of the Bishop of Rome or any other the supreme principalitie belonged to the Emperours And this appeareth yet furder by the other Epistles that ye mention In the next Epistle of the Empresse Placidia to Theodosius the Emperour hir Sonne for the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople after she hath shewed with what teares the Bishop of Rome moued hir to write she sheweth how all thinges were done vnorderly at Ephesus against Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople bicause sayeth she he sent a libell to the Apostolicall seate and to all the Bishops of these parties by those which were in the Councell directed from the moste Reuerende Bishop of Rome VVho are accustomed O moste holy Lorde my Sonne and Reuerent Emperour to be put according to the Decrees of Nicene Councell and for this cause let your mildenesse withstanding so great troubles commaunde the truth of the Religion of the Catholike faith to be kepte vndefiled And so ascribing a principall prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome she desireth the Emperor that the iudgement of the matter may be sent ouer to him Which sheweth that the Bishop of Romes principalitie was vnderneath the Emperours Likewise in the next Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius after she hath praysed the Emperour saying It is knowne vnto all men that your mildenesse hath a care and earnest heedefulnesse of Christians and of the Catholike faith in so much that you would commaunde nothing at all to be done to the iniurie of it And after she hath shewed how the Bishop of Rome besought hir in the foresaide matter to derect hir letters to the Emperour saluting you sayth she I desire right that your tranquilitie would vouchsafe to haue care to the letters and those things that are ill done ye would commaunde them to be amended vntill that all things that also already are determined be altogither reuoked the cause of the faith and Christian religion that is moued in a Councell gathered togither in the partes of Italy may be fetched out For it is written that all this contention raysed commeth from hence that the Bishop Flauianus might be remoued from the Ecclesiasticall dealings Thus do these
and correct all maner of persons for al maner of heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion This is inough M. St. for your part to grauÌ„t the Prince thus much Nay soft ye say you I graunt this but with a perchaunce What doth so waightie a matter hang by so rotten a thread Nay I graunt not this perchauÌ„ce neither say you but in some condition This goeth hard with Princes M. St. to stand at this smal reuersion But go to let vs see how many Princes visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences What is the condition ye wil make Forsooth the condition is this looke what maner lawes and decrees the Priests will make the Prince shall only confirme them by outwarde execution of them Looke what maner persons the priests do say are heretikes â—…chismatikes and offenders the Prince shall execute them with the sworde and kill them Looke what maner religion doctrine and doings the Priests and Bishops shall in their Councels both generall and nationall decrâ—… to be heresie schisme and offence the Prince shal roborate fortifie and streÌ„gthen them And this is the only sense sayth M. St. that I meane that they should visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion Why M. Stapl. this sense and this graunte are quite contrarie the one to the other The Prince shall visite reforme and correct all maner of persons heresies schismes and offences that is to say he shall not visite reforme nor correct any maner of person for any maner of all these things but the Priest shall do it and he shall onely be the Priestes slaue and executioner Well sayth M. Stap. be it as be may construe it as ye will this is the onely some sense that we may graunt it in and in none other sense And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Is not héere a proper graunt to Princes and is not master Stap. to be commended for this some sense of christian Princes gouernment But who is so senselesse that he seeth not in this sense that the Prince hath no gouernement at all but is made a very slaue to the Popish priests authoritie And in this some sense coulde master Stapl. finde in his heart to acknowledge a gouernement to the Queenes maiestie and yet not without a perchaunce neither But without perchaunce master Stap. your sense sheweth what good harte ye beare hir Maiestie and all other christian Princes Now that M. Stap. hath thus chalenged the state which the bishop framed and yet graunteth with a perchaunce thereto in some sense which sense is as you haue heard he taketh vpon him to set downe the true state of the question in hande and prefixeth these words in his margine The state of the question and so procéedeth saying But the question is here nowe whether the Prince or lay magistrate may of him selfe and of his own princely authoritie without any higher eccl. power in the Church within or without the Realme visite reforme and correct and haue all maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things causes eccl. or no. As whether the Prince may by his own supreme authoritie depose and set vp Bishops and priests make iniunctions of doctrine prescribe order of Gods seruice enact matters of religioÌ„ approue and disproue articles of the faith take order for administration of Sacraments commaund or put to silence Preachers determine doctrine excoÌ„municate and absolue with such like which al are causes eccl. and al apperteyning not to the inferiour ministerie which you grauÌ„t to Priests and Bishops only but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment which you do annexe to the Prince only This I say is the state of the question now present For the present question betweene you and M. Feck is grounded vpon the othe comprised in the statute which statute emplieth and concludeth all these particulars I had thought séeing your earnestnesse M. St. when ye came to meÌ„tioning the statute that we should haue herd all these things that ye haue thus as it were on your fingers endes particularly named expressed in the statute But wheÌ„ al coÌ„meth to al ye knit vp the matter with this which statute implyeth concludeth al these particulars But I sée you employ your selfe like your self stil to false coÌ„clusions And such as your coÌ„clusions are such are your proues You pretende here after ye haue controlled the B. to set down the true state of the questioÌ„ But as ye played in the beginning so ye holde out rubbers euen to the ending Ye are stil the same man that cried out of short wide shoting hauing set vp new markes of your owne making by this doing both to defeate the bishops profes also to deceiue the reader Ye would fayne driue all to the othe and make the othe the present question And why so bicause say you the present question is grounded on the othe True in déede bothe the present question and all other questions about this controuersie and the issue also agréed vpon betwéene these parties is grounded as ye say vpon the oth And bicause the present question is grounded theron it is a good argument against you that the oth is not theÌ„ the present questioÌ„ bicause the present questioÌ„ is grouÌ„ded theron a question is not grounded on it selfe Ye shoulde haue marked that though the originall be of the othe yet both the issue the present questioÌ„ in haÌ„d being by degrées deducted from thence make nowe an other state To the which to this issue if the bishop satisfie ye can not iustly chaleÌ„ge him any further As for that state of the question that you set downe and the particulars thereof that ye say are implyed and concluded in the statute that all those things are apperteining not to the inferiour but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment that ye say we annexe to the Prince only al these are your most manifest vntruthes slanders nor ye can finde them either specified emplyed concluded comprised or any wayes to be ment in the othe or in the statute or in any parte therof Neither the othe or the statute giue al maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things and causes ecclesiasticall to the Prince but ascribe to the Prince the supreme gouernment and authoritie in al things and causes ecclesiasticall True it is that supreme gouernement is aboue ouer them but yet the one is not the other supreme gouernment is not all maner of gouernment Neither bothe the othe or the statute either in wordes or effect of wordes ascribe to this the Princes supreme gouernment the making of Priests and Bishops the making iniunctions of doctrine the determining of doctrin the approuing or disprouing articles of the faith excommunicating and absoluing the preaching of the worde and the administration of Sacramentes Where fynde ye any of these things so muche as to be gathered out
beareth not in vayne or by some other bodily punishment may correct him if any man shall refuse to obey the Priestes sentence Therefore we denie not but that bothe before and about and after the Bishoply iudgement there are some partes of kinges but in the office of iudging kings can do more than can priuate men For either of them can bothe giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good but neither of them can define what the diuine or eccl. lawe declareth in that matter VVhiche thing thus declared let vs nowe come to the proofe of the matter it selfe All this then either néedeth none or little answere M. Saunders béeing barely anouched without any proofe to the whiche ye are not yet come but onely declare what ye will denie or graunt to Princes Your graunt we take and sée ye go not from it But will all your fellowes yea wyll your Pope him selfe graunt so muche that the Emperour shall by his authoritie appoynt the certayne place and day where and when the Bishops shal holde their Councels It was wont to be so in the olde time But will your Pope suffer this nowe and that kinges shall do the lyke in their kingdomes Nay M. Sauâ—…ders he will mislike of this and say ye graunt too large a thong of another mans leather howesoeuer you would by qualification eate your grauntâ—… agayne cleane contrarying your selfe ascribing no more to Princes than to priuate men And yet agayn you graunt that bothe of them may giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good in ecclesiasticall matters although they can not determine them Goe to master Saunders till you bring your proofes we will take this graunte also of your liberalitie that Princes may giue counsell and shewe what they thinke good A good manie of your side will not graunt so muche nor you but for a countenaunce sake neither Althoughe yée doe them open iniurie to compare them qualle beeing publique estates to priuate menne As for your determination of Gods law what you meane thereby when yée shewe your meaning playner we will aunswere to it Nowe to your proofes Master Saunders proofes in this Chapter kéepe this order first he alleageth the reasons for his partie Secondly he aunswereth oure obiections Hys firste reason is this Those things that are of God man can not dispose them otherwyse than if God gyue vnto them suche authoritie â–ª but the causes of faythe chiefly of all other are of GOD bycause faythe is the moste necessarie gyfte of GOD that no man can obtayne to him selfe by any force either of nature or arte the causes therefore of fayth can not be iudged of other than of them to whome God hath giuen that power I aunswere the partes of thys argument be true 〈◊〉 the conclusion noughte for there is more in the conclusion than in the premisses â–ª The conclusion shoulde haue 〈◊〉 Therefore 〈◊〉 can not dispose the causes of fayth otherwyse than if God giue them suche authoritie Howebeit we simply denie not M. Saunders conclusion but would haue him distinguish what he meanes by iudgeing 〈◊〉 he meane disposing causes of fayth otherwise than God hath already in his word disposed them or else his argumente hathe no sense nor sequele then the conclusion as it is not proued so is it apparant false Neyther giue we suche iudgement to Princes or to any other creature for suche power God hath giuen to none Althoughe the Popishe priestes falsly clayme suche power to dispose matters of fayth otherwyse than God disposed them But master 〈◊〉 will proue hys conclusion on thiâ—… wyse But God hath giuen suche power to certayne men and not at large to all Christian people Therefore none haue it but they The antecedent he proues from Saincte Paule Ephesians the fourth For God hathe ordeyned some Apostles other Prophets other Euangelistes other Pastors and Teachers to the ediâ—…ying of his mysticall body whiche is the Churche But other hee made as it were sheepe and lambes that they shoulde bee edifyed by their pastors and teachers and too whome their pastors shoulde attende that they should not be caried awaye with euerie blaste of doctrine by the subtiltie of man. I answere agayne as before If he meane by iudgeing â—…eaching with sounde iudgement it is true and this senâ—…ence well applyed but if he meane as his principall â—…roposition was whereon all dependes Disposing thinâ—…es of faythe otherwise Then wée denie the anteceâ—…ente and the conâ—…equence too As for thys sentence â—…roues no suche iudgement giuen to any of these persons but rather confutes it as not to edifie but to destroy and to be caried away by the subtiltie of men with euery blast of doctrine if men might dispose otherwise of fayth than God him selfe hath dispoâ—…ed Nowe vpon this sentence of S. Paule for Pastors be reasoneth thus But Pastors only iudge what is fit or not fit for the sheepe For to conclude that sheepe are indued with equal power to Pastors this were nothing else but to take away the differeÌ„ce that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe and the thinges that he hath distinguyshed to mingle and confounde them Kinges therefore and Magistrates if they be counted sheepe in the floâ—…ke of Christ as in deede sheepe they are iudge not togither with the Pastors The argument is thus made formall Pastors do onely iudge what is fit or not fit for the sheepe But Princes are not Pastors but sheepe of the flocke of Christ. Ergo Princes do not iudge what is fit or not fit for them The maior he proueth thus To conclude that the sheepe haue equall power with Pastors is nothing else but to mingle and confounde and take away the difference that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe But if Princes should iudge the sheepe should haue equall power Ergo For Princes to iudge were to mingle confound and take away the difference that Christ hath set betweene the Pastors and the sheepe First to the maior I answere he siftes the similitude of a shepherde and shéepe too narrowe For although in some resemblaunces it holde yet is it not simply true that the Pastor onely iudgeth what is fitte or not fitte for this kinde of sheepe He him selfe confesseth before and after agayne confesseth that the priuate man or Princes may giue counsell and priuate iudgement And S. Paule speaking not of the pastor but of the spiritual man that is of the sheepe of God sayth Spiritualis omnia iudicat the spiritual man iudgeth all thinges And Christe biddes the people beware of false prophets which can not be without iudgement Neyther is this sufficient proofe of the maior that he alleageth to contende that the sheepe hath equal power is to confounde Christes distinction Wée graunte this it were so But this wée denie that héereby the sheepe is made to haue equall power For the iudgement of the pastor is one thing
therof so let this by the way be noted that he giueth Princes most free Principaliue 〈◊〉 thoâ—…e causes that 〈◊〉 not the faith and Religion of Christ. But to place good Bishops and pastors in gods Churche to remoue euill Bishops and pastors from gods Church â—…o puâ—… Idolatrie out of gods Gods Church to set forth suâ—…h 〈◊〉 seruice as is to edifie gods church to coÌ„mand the word of God to be read in the vulgar tongue to reforme Ecclesiasticall abuses to punishe whordoms to allow as honorable matrimonie in all men to call councels to commaund the Sacraments to be vsed as Christ ordeined theÌ„ to ouersée al estates degrées of persons in gods Church to do in al things to the glory of God to the publique preseruation of the Church to the faithful administratioÌ„ of their particular callings doth not diminishe the faith and ReligioÌ„ of Christ Therfore Christian Princes haue most free principalitie that is to say supreme gouernment in al these eccl. so wel as in ciuil causes Now that he hath granted to Princes thus much which coÌ„prehendeth all the question he declareth on the other side what he exempteth from the Bishops but so subtily that vnder pretence of debarring them from hauing authoritie in those things that he ascribeth to the Princes principalitie he both reuoketh his former graunt to Princes and conueyeth all those things vnto the Bishops Neither Pastors of the Church saith he doe intermeddle their authoritie in those things saue nowe and then to admonishe them and giue theÌ„ faithfull counsell neither doe we defend all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiect to the pastors of the Church but in those causes onely which would hinder the faith and Christian saluation except they were partly forbidden as diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes which the natioÌ„s committe without punishment partly commaunded as giuing of almes the defence of neighbours and chiefly of the poore the fortifying of the Church of Christ and Christian Religion and to conclude all other things which the lawe of God commandeth and prescribeth as necessarie to saluation In these wordes Maister Saunders speaketh cleane contraries the Princes haue the moste frée principalitie in all causes that diminishe not the faith and Religion of Christe and the Bishops doe onely admonishe and giue councel and yet he ascribeth all to the Bishops both to punishe all that would hinder the faith and Christian saluation and to fortifie all that would furder it What is not here againe giuen to the Bishoppes and what is not here againe taken from the Princes yea their Kingdomes and all in some places and nothing left for Princes for what else meaneth he by this we defend not all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiecte to the pastors of the Church As who should say some are subiect to them by the law of God where the lawe of God is flat to the contrarie that no kingdomes are subiect vnto them But as Maister Saunders contrarie to gods law maketh some kingdomes subiect in all things vnto Bishops so maketh he all kingdomes subiect vnto them in matters of diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes saith he as the nations commit without punishment Which as it is a sclaunder to Christian Princes as mainteining such sinnes which rather they punishe and Popishe Prelates both permit and commit without punishment of them so he ascribeth these punishmentes to the Popishe Prelates for nothing but for aduauntage as also the gyuing of Almes defence of neighbours and chiefely of the poore As thoughe that Princes did not or could not doe these things but the Priestes who by suche fetches gat all things into their clutches Maister SauÌ„ders hauing thus séemed at the first to yelde vnto Princes great authoritie and streight to take away all againe from them and giue it vnto themselues least Princes might worthily thinke themselues abused he mitigateth the matter with this reason Neither ought it seeme strange to anye man that kings in these matters should obey Christ for this standeth theÌ„ chiefly vpon sith otherwise they cannot get eternall life As thoughe your Pope Maister Stapleton and you hys â—…riests were christ Good reason it is they shuld obey Christ otherwise as you say most truely therein they cannot get eternall life But sith you are not Christ this reason holdeth not But you will say you be Christs and represent christ Woâ—…ld to God you were M. Saunders and not rather â—…tichristes For if you were Chrittes you woulde oâ—…ey your Prince And not haue the Prince in authoritie of gouernement obey you whom you ought to obey since a Christian Prince is Christs also and in authoritie â—…f gouernment immediatly to Christians representeth Christ. Thinke you that Princes can not get eternall life excepte they obey your Pope so you tel them in dede make manâ—…e Princes afraid therof by which meanes you haue gotteÌ„ their gouernement from theÌ„ And thus prâ—…tending the name of Christ you saye VVâ—…en therefore we say that earthly kings ought to be vnder Christes ministers we say onely this that they no otherwise can be saued neither receiued of Christian people to a kingdome or oughte to be suffred in the administration of a kingdome than iâ—… they both doe and pretermit those things that the lawe of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted If you meane the obedience to the ministers of Christ no furder than this to doe and 〈◊〉 those things that â—…he law of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted theÌ„ were the controuersie at an end for this obedience was never denied But before you went furâ—…er and would hauâ—… the Prince to doe and preteâ—… those things that the lawe of the Pope and his Priests would haue done and pretermitted 〈◊〉 you repâ—…e they be 〈◊〉 of Christ their 〈◊〉 is the 〈◊〉 of Christ this would be proued M. Saunders for it is 〈◊〉 of the chiefest pointes in controuâ—…sie As for Christs lawe we graunt that excepte the Prince obey it he can not be saued But that he which in any one poynt doth any thing which Christs lawe commaundeth nâ—…t or 〈◊〉 any thing that Christs lawe commaundeth is not to be receiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 people to a kingdome or bâ—…ing receiued ought not to be â—…tred in the administration of a kingdome is a perilouâ—… doctrine For who should thâ—… be a king or who shoulde noâ—… be turned oute of his kingdome For who offendeth not herein chiefely expounding the law of Christ as your selues â—…ed in what daunger and thraloâ—…me to you should kings become so that it were better be a begger and beg his bread than be a Christian king and rule and be ruled on this wise if these your rules were true But now to helpe the matter you will expound what ye meane by the â—…aw of Christ. But what the
accorde appeale and come to them as before whome to pleade sithe they haue them selues a better power giuen them heereto of God. Thus by the iudgement of your owne side this place serueth nothing for refusing the obedience of Princes although they were Infidels Apostataes or Heretikes as thankes be giuen to God the protestant Princes are not agaynst whome ye shoote these trayterous bookes but are true christians faithful christian Princes As for the other sentence maketh lesse to your purpose â–ª For he speaketh not there of princes but of false teachers â–ª as for princes by S. Paules doctrine â–ª aforesayde wiâ—… whome S. Iohn agréeth they should bothe be saluted worshipped and prayed for that God would spéede and prâ—… per them in their gouernementes And this as ye say iâ—… more then to salute them But sithe we are bounde to 〈◊〉 the greater to vse your owne reason muche lesse may 〈◊〉 debarre the lesser from them and not so muche as say 〈◊〉 speeds them or giue them â—…nce God morrowe Which as â–ª is besides all ciuilitie that you say Christ taketh not awaâ—… so were it wilfully to prouoke the Princes indignation â–ª Abimelech was but an Heathen prince and yet Abraâ—… dwelte with him made a league with him and gaue him a present and toke a present of him Pharao was an heathen Prince and yet Ioseph behaued himselfe most reuerently vnto him and became a moste faithfull stewarde ouer his countrey Ahasuerus was a heathen Prince and yet both Mardocheus honored him and preserued his life from traiters and Hester was maried vnto him Benadad the king of Syria was an heathen Prince and yet Naaman his captaine after he was clensed from his leprie and was become a faithfull beleuer in God forsoke not his obedience to his heatheÌ„ Prince and where he moued a scruple of suffring his Idolatrous Prince to leane vpoÌ„ him the Prophet had him depart in peace he had him not reuolt froÌ„ his Princes obedience Darius was an heathen Prince yet Daniel sayde vnto him O king God saue thy life for euer Agrippa was an heathen Prince and yet S. Paule both saluted him and wished him euen as himselfe except his bondes This therfore is not to be stretched vnto Princes but to be takeÌ„ as it is spoken against false teachers as both the text is plaine euen the Popish writers to so vnderstand it althoughe they misvnderstand who the false teachers be But who they be S. Ihon describeth by this note Euery one that goeth from abideth not in the doctrin of Christ hath not god He that abideth in the doctrine he hath the father and the sonne if any come vnto you bring not this doctrine receiue him not into the house neither say God spede vnto him For â—…e that saith God spede communicateth with his euill workes But this is apparant that the Papists haue made the doctrine of Christ insufficient and brought in other doctrine besides the scripture of God they therfore are these false teachers that S. Iohn so straightly forbiddeth vs to communicate withall If then God spede may not be saide vnto the false teachers that is to say we may not approue their doctrine nor be familiar with them theÌ„ must the Popish teachers companie be auoided that are here so plain described And it were to be wished â–ª this were some what more straightly loked vnto thaÌ„ it is â–ª God graunt that bearing to much with Papists bearing theÌ„ company yea and bearing theÌ„ out also do not only spice vs with their false doctrin he that toucheth pitch saith the wise maÌ„ shal be defiled with it make vs partakers of their euill workes but also prouoke the heauie wrath of God vpon vs make the Papists whom we beare so much withall become the very cutters of our throates For I tell you their faith will serue them they haue a ruled case for it Nulla sides teneÌ„da haereticis no faith must be kept with heretiks as they accouÌ„t vs to be But I learned once this rule in mine Accidence â—…oelix quem faciunt aliena pericula cautuÌ„ Happie is he whoÌ„ other mens harms do make to beware Let vs not thinke but they can loke as faire thinke as foule in England as in Fraunce deale as horribly if as God forbid they could get their oportunitie Which to compasse the sooner this good teacher M. Saunders setteth forth this doctrine to sturre the people to rebel depose their soueraigne hereto wresteth these places of the scripture to make them seme to serue his purpose where both being better considered make cleane against it Howbeit thinking he hath fully proued it The matter saith he is nowe brought to this point that an hereticall king must be remoued from his kingdome that he obteyneth ouer Christians But how he hath brought the matter to this point with what proues not worth a point I doubt not but euery reader wil easilie sée nor any subiect be moued to remoue his naturall Prince for any thing yet alleaged yea although as he surmiseth his Prince were in déede an heretike But M. Saund. presupposing that he hath cléerely proued the Prince must nedes be deposed will now proue that the deposing of him belongeth to the Bishop And bicause saith he the crime for the which he must be remoued is coÌ„mitted against the faith a little before it is abundantly proued that those causes shuld not be iudged of the people which is gouerned like sheepe but of the pastors whose dutie is to discerne betwen the cleane vncleane and whose lippes do therfore kepe knowledge that the people should require the lawe of the Lorde out of their mouth verily it belongeth chiefely to the Bishops both to pronounce euen the king himself an heretike or otherwise an Apostata also to declare that his subiects froÌ„ thence forth are free froÌ„ giuing all obedience vnto him that they ought to endeuor themselues that another out of hand be chosen in his roome Like lippes like lettyse they say Euen a fit sentence for so fit Bishops to pronounce Finde you me this in the law of the Lord M. Saunders that the priests should kepe this know ledge and yet better kepe it than vtter it to make the Proclamation of rebellion Is this the law the people must fetch from the priests mouth well this lawe made some of them be hanged at Durham not long ago as all such lawlesse and rebell Priests deserue No M. Saunders ye finde not this fraiteroâ—…s office appointed to the Priests in gods lawe Out of their mouth in deede the law of God must procéede their lippes must kepe it they must discerne betwene the cleane and vncleane Although this be but here spokeÌ„ Metaphorically for that was a bodily cleanneste vncleannesse discerning who was a Leper who was none But stretch it hardily to the
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ„ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ„ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ„ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests â–ª that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ„ religion â–ª they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed â–ª And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌ„sequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ„ for how shal that coÌ„trouersie be iudged without theÌ„ what thogh that coÌ„trouersie could not be iudged without theÌ„ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ„ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ„ but what if they theÌ„selues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ„ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌ„selues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ„ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ„ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌ„dum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌ„monly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour â–ª a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌ„t they it an offence against christiaÌ„ religion yet in the christiaÌ„ religion iâ—… is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ„ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ„ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ„ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ„ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
intreaties rather thaÌ„ with terrors The condition pleaseth a publike calling forth of the people is made by the Kings coÌ„maundement to whom the King maketh an oratioÌ„ persuadeth the people to receiue the faith of Christ moueth them to submit their neckes to Christ the priest reioyceth that the King not yet baptized is becoÌ„e an Apostle of his owne natioÌ„ so the King is baptised What condition is here made by the Bishoppe vnto the King of giuing ouer his realme deposing himselfe which might haue done more hart thaÌ„ good In what couâ—…nant did the people here binde themselues to looâ—…e the libertiâ—… of chosing their King or promise to forsake their King if their King forsake the faith here was no such bondage â—…red â—…ther to the King by the Bishop and the King thought good to offer none such to the people but with gentle persuasions to allâ—…re them So that these presupposals of these Bishops speaches vnto these Princes are vtterly false and forged onely to driue in the readers heads a surmise of seme suche conditionall admission to the Christian faith in these elde Princes dayes whiche was nothing so nor so And yet by these colourable presupposals he enforceth his matter with a question aying Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of Baptisme and giue the sacrament of thanksgiuing Why M. SauÌ„ders here was no such condition moued yet Remigius gaue Clodoneus the sacrament of Baptisme â–ª In deede the sacrament of that kâ—…giuing he gaue not then vnto hym neyther was it necessarie till he were instructed in the mysterie of it And therefore this is as fondly added in this case to the Sacrament of Baptisme as your case of Baptisme is craftily and malicioâ—…sly deuised to bring Princes in bondage vnto Bishoppes But this King thoughe he and his people submitted their neckes to Christe yet did he not thus submit himselfe and his people to the Bishoppe The long promiseth to 〈◊〉 one God but not to 〈◊〉 eyther the Bishop of Remes or the Bishop of Rome â–ª These knackes and conditions of bondage for Princes to promise and â—…weare obedience to the Pope and to his Bishops yea to sweare to depose themselues and become pâ—…uate men if they forscke this consâ—…rained obedience is of later times as the Popes power and tirannie hath growne and hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Christian Princes great huâ—…lie but lâ—…s in manye Christian kingdomes But yet it neuer went thus for as it now should do â–ª if M. Saunders might haue hie minde for it was neuer vrged in their Christâ—…dome before This pasieth the slauerie of the Spanish InquisitioÌ„ that no Prince nor people shuld be christened except they swere to these exceptioÌ„s In the olde time when the Prophetes anoynted kinges they tolde them of the blessings of God to come vpon them and their posteritie to sitte in their seate after them and that God woulde buylde them an house to continue if they serued him and walked faythfully in his wayes And if they should do the contrarie howe God woulde rende the kingdome from them and giue it to another Of suche promises and threates that the Prophetes tolde the kinges we reade and of the promises that the kinges made agayne to God we reade but that any Prophet compounded with the king before that he shoulde renounce his kingdome or that any king tooke either their circumcision or their kingdome on suche condition or that the king reuolting from his promise either voluntarily or by compulsion deposed him selfe or was deposed of the Bishop Priest or Prophet of God these thinges yâ—… can not shewe vs but these thinges ye shoulde shewe vs if ye will make good your sayings and directly proue your purpose You tell vs heere a tale of a tubbe in the name of these kinges Bishops that they neuer dyd nor I thinke dyd euer thinke of any such deuises But go too let vs nowe presuppose with M. Saunders euen as he imagineth A King would be baptised The Bishop sayth VVe are glad most deare sonne that thou desirest to be made a citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certayntie that the case is not like in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde for in the Churche thou muste liue so that thou make captine thy vnderstanding to the obedience of fayth But thou how greater thou art in the worlde mayest so muche the more hurte the Churche of God if thou shalte abuse the righte of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike fayth No otherwise therefore thou mayest haue entrie into the Churche than if thou shalt promise that thou wilte persist in that fayth and defende that Churche with all thy force which beeing receiued from the Apostles is continued by the successioÌ„ of Bishops vntil this day dispersed through out all the world But if it shall chaunce thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalte go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life M. Saunders nowe presupposeth that the king hearing the Bishop thus beginne to indent with him will beginne his answere to the Bishop thus I am ready to acknowledge the Christian fayth Why M. sand is not this inough if the Bishop séeke something else besides the acknowledging of the Christian fayth Surely he neither séeketh the glory of God nor the Princes saluation nor the encrease of Christendome but his owne sucre authoritie Well the Bishop will haue him graunt to all the residue of his conditions or else he will not baptise him Heere agayne he presupposeth the king to say further But I neither promise that I will with my sworde defende the Catholike fayth neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the right of my kingdome Ye tel the kings tale parcially M. San â–ª you should make it flatly to denie that whiche the Bishop exacted of him to do Which was to promise to defend not the faith but that faith that Church c. Which the king denieth to make promise vnto the Bishop on suche condition Yea saith M. sand saucely steppeth in for the B. can the B. to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of baptisme c. And why not M. San. if the bishop be not worse affected him selfe than this man is for you graunt your selfe that he is wel affected towards the christiaÌ„ faith would acknowledge it which is al one with defending it And if the bishop be not content with this promise hath not the king good cause to suspect him he telleth him of bondes conditions to be made to renounce the right of his kingdome if he perâ—…e not in that faith with al his force if he defeÌ„d not that church that was receiued from the Apostles continued by successioÌ„ of B. till this day and iâ—… dispersed throughout all the world May not here the king
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differâ—…ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ„ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to â–ª Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌ„maundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my â—…ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them â–ª What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ—… reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌ„trouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ—… promise of him â—…y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the â—…oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kâ—…pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pâ—…t 〈◊〉 and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ—… a faith and Church â—…egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ—… make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that â–ª your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ—… bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiâ—…hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister 〈◊〉 rightly to saue my promise And will deâ—…ende wâ—…th
of Christe to haue so mightie a Realme as Englande or Fraunce to become Christian by this offer why is not this offer taken for sooth the B. refuseth it Is not here a great iniurie offered to Christs Church by this B but whie doth the B. thus bycause the Prince will not promise obedience to the Prelates and to renounce his kingdome if he swarue from his obedience to them Is this a sufficient cause for want of obedience to the Prieste to defeate Chryste of his obedience Nay say you he made an exception that he vvoulde not submit his Diademe to Christ. By your leaue M. Saunders there you say not true Loke on your own presupposall once again yea on the words you made the Prince to speake whiche althoughe they were of your owne deuising for you neuer I suppose heard or read of Prince desirous to be baptized that spake on that fashion you do but tell the Princes tale to your aduantage yet finde you no such wordes in the wordes that you speake for him yea he speaketh the contrarie in offering to acknowledge the faith of Christ. But say you he would not submit his Diademe make his kingdome subiecte in the cause of faithe to the Ministers of Christ and that is all one vvyth denying to submit his Diademe to Christ. Yea Master Sanders were it admitted ye were ministers of Christ is Christ you al one the submissioÌ„ to Christ to his ministers al one Backare M. Saâ—… there is a great difference And yet Chryst requireth no submission of Diademes or subiection of kingdoms in such sort vnto him that he wold haue kings resigne them vp to him and he woulde take them no he neuer vsed that practise He might haue had such kingdomes if he had list but he refused them as your selfe before haue confessed Althoughe your Pope will haue kings resigne their kingdomes vnto him and he will take them and ruffle in greater pompe than any king vseth to doe Whiche argueth playnely that he is not Christes minister And therefore the king hardyly may refuse his vnlawfull demaunde that he woulde in the name of Christ extort as Christes officer which his master Christe both refused himselfe and forbad in his ministers And therefore the Prince dothe Chryste no iniurie bycause he will not bring his kingdome thrall to a false Prieste pretending to be Christes Minister béeing indéede the Minister of the tempter that offereth worldly kingdomes But say you hee muste make his kingdome subiecte to them in the cause of faith As though the cause of faith were hindered if the King made not his kingdome subiecte to the Priestes where as this were the reddiest way bothe to destroye the kingdome and the faith No Master Saunders the faithe of Chryste was neuer more sincere than when the Ministers of Chryst were obedient subiectes to their kings And the cause of faythe was neuer more weakened and corrupted than sithe Priestes haue wrong themselues out of their kings subiections and that the Popes haue made the Kings sweare obedience vnto them But Maister Saunders whines at this crying out vvhere is the obedience of faith that Christ sent his Apostles to procure in all the vvorlde You do well Master Saunders to aske vvhere it is for surely it is not with you nor in all your Popishe kingdome except here and there lurking and dare not shewe hir head for feare your Popishe Inquisitors woulde gette hir by the polle The obedience of fayth was frée when Priests were subiectes and since Priestes became Princes they haue taken hir captiue and exiled hir and done all that they coulde to haue killed hir But she is escaped your hands and requicouereth that libertie that the Apostles procured in all nations for hir And she doth so much the better bicause she rereth not worldly subiection of Princes but letteth Princes kéepe the estate of their kingdomes and requireth not onely obedience to hir in a more spirituall submission Whiche the more Princes yelde vnto hir they bring not their kindomes into more slauerie but into more libertie renowne and honour So that I truste shortely they will bring the Pope and his proude Prelates to their olde obedience againe Whie saye you this is to arme Princes agaynste the Church Nay Master Saunders it is rather to strengthen the Church to let Princes haue that armor that is due vnto them What say you to lette them doe vvhat they vvill and for nothing they shall doe to saye they vvill not leaue their Empire No bodie Master Saunders giueth Princes authoritie to do what they will. The authoritie that is giuen them is onely to doe good Their vvill must not be what they will but what Lawe vvill It is not with them as it is wyth your Pope Sic volo sic Iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas Thus I vvill and thus I commaunde my vvyll shall stande in steade of reason The Law is not wyth them in scrinio pectoris in the cofer of the brest as your Pope sayth it is in his I graunt there are Princes that doe thus but that is not their dutie Neither do Princes make a profession as you say that for nothing they will giue ouer their authoritie nor it is required of them nor presupposed But their duetie in their officâ—… is required and it is presupposed they will continue therein Which if they do not but breake promise shall the subiectes depose them or the Byshops depriue them by whiche rule they may quickly set vpon the Prince for any enormitie in ciuil matters too for he promised to minister iustice to al meÌ„ but he promised to none to giue vp his crowne if he did not Yea though he had made them some suche expresse promise also and brake it yet coulde no Byshop nor any other priuate person attempte to depose him for the breach thereof but commit the vengeance to god But this Prince that here is presupposed offereth inough vnto the Bishop which if he refuse not the Prince but the Byshop endamageth the Church of Christ. Nowe Master Saunders presupposing in this supposall that he hath clearely euicted the case where the Byshop by expresse wordes maketh this condition with the king he will pursue his victorie that he thinketh he hath gotten and proue that the king hath promised and is bounde euen as muche where the Byshoppe at his baptisme saithe no suche wordes vnto him But if so be saith he all men vvill confesse that no Byshop can giue baptisme vvithout great sinne to that king vvhom he seeth so proude then truely although the Byshop by negligence or forgetfulnesse shall say nothing hereof vnto the king notvvithstanding suche is the obedience that the king himselfe giueth vnto the Gospell of Christe vvhen he maketh himselfe a member of him and desireth of him to be saued that vvill hee nill hee this promise is contained in that facte that he shall minister vnto Christ and to the
togither of such matters as he noteth in the B. for vntruthes which I referre to his common place theron Thirdly where the B. speaking of the occasion of M. Fe. wrangling in his conference with the B mentioned hys shrinking from his confederates in the conference at W. in the. 1. yere of the Q. maiestie Herevpon though he coÌ„fesseth saying I might now passe forth to the residue of M. Hornes booke yet must he not in any wise let slip this occasion of digression for otherwise he should want matter to sâ—…uffe vp his connterblast And so at large entreth to proue that they were vneuenly delt withall for proofe wherof he alledgeth diuers reasons First they were disaduantaged to be put to the profe of that wherof they were in possessioÌ„ I answer they were in possession of possessions in â—…éede not of the truth vnlesse they had it in their possession of imprisonmeÌ„t Secondly they gaue ouer the disputatioÌ„ not bicause they had not or did not shevve suffycient euidence but bicause they were very muche strayted for shortnesse of tyme and so belike coulde not finde it out Thirdly it was a fruitlesse and superfluous enterprise to dispute of those three matters only whether the seruice may be in the mother tong VVhether any one realme may alter and change the rites and ceremonies in the Church make new VVhether the masse â–ª be a sacrifice propiciatorie seeing that the. 1. and. 2. question be no questions of fayth And the 3. dependeth vpon the questioÌ„s of transubstantiation the reall presence vvhich ought first to haue bene discussed and then this as accessorie therevnto What a nuÌ„ber of starting holes the papists had to auoide the disputation they were farre better armed to find excuses to giue it ouer than prouided to go throughstitche therwith But had they had such euidence ready as ye pretende M. St. what néede they finde fault with the time although they had as much time as their aduerfaries had to prepare them selues And if they were strayghted for shortnesse of time to dispute onely of three matters and those as ye say not the weightiest neither why complayne ye of their questions to haue bene but three onely in so many and weightie matters as nowe stande in controuersie Could they dispatch so many great matters in so straight a time and would they whine to be straited for only three lesse matters Ha M. St. this is to broade before But ye wrythe the excuse an other way not so muche for the number as the lightnesse of the matters to be dependant and accessory to other questions aâ—…d to be no matters of fayth How light so euer ye woulde séeme to make them now ye haue made theÌ„ as waightie an other time before But let theÌ„ be as light as ye would haue them lesse to did ye not agrée on them yea did you not your selues deuise them vnwitting to the other parties Did ye not prepare for them might ye not the easelier haue answered vnto them these are but childishe excuses let vs heare what more ye haue Fourthly it was made before lay men as Iudges Yea there M. St. ye hitte the nayle on the head Ye woulde be disputers and Iudges too your selues His example of the Anabaptists disputation at Monster which he likeneth to this at VVestminster I passe ouer to his raylings and slaunderous common places Fifthly they should haue bene suffred to haue replied to their aduersaries which they could not be suffred to do If ye had put in disorderly ye had said true But would they haue kept the order by them selues deuised and agreed vpon they might haue replied at the full the doing was not in hucker mucker inowe heard it that can tell And your owne other excuses do plainly argue not that ye coulde not be suffred but that ye could not for the time or would not for the matter and néeded not pleading possession and thought not good for bicause of the Iudges with such other excuses that as your selfe confesse moued you to giue ouer the disputation Which howe it agréeth with this fifth excuse that ye could not be suffred to replie is easie to discerne and to take a lyer tardie in his owne tale Sixtly last say you surely amoÌ„g al other concerning the supremacie of the Prince in causes eccle c. there shoulde haue ben much more mature deliberation Deliberation is good in al things M. St. but wilfull prolonging foding on the time is neither good nor godly chiefly in Gods matters wherein we are bidden hodie si vocem 〈◊〉 andieritis nolite obdurare corda vestra But when would your deliberation be ripe M. St it appeareth by these your excuses that your selfe would be rotten or euer it would be ripe Ye would go to it with ripe deliberation that is to say as a beare goeth to the stake ye would aduise your self long or euer ye would willingly come to try your doctrine religion by disputation if ye could otherwise chose Howbeit by your owne tale these matters néede no such long protracting the time béeing so few so light as here in your excuses you pretend they be Yea but surely say you among al other things coÌ„cerning the supremacy of the Prince in causes ecclesiastical c there would haue ben much more mature deliberation Why M. St. here was neither al causes nor the cause of supremacie debated But onely as your selfe say three accessarie matters and matters nothing touching faith And therefore ye ouershoote your selfe once againe to put in this excuse But what is your small drift of all these excuses forsooth this The Popes legate should haue bene president at the disputation of these matters and then it had bene a formall disputatioÌ„ Then the Catholikes had ben indifferently delt withall Then would ye haue refused no controuersie Then would ye not haue complained of the straightnes of time Nor desired furder delaye Nor refused either to haue answered or replied if the Popes legate had bene president at it But who seeth not that this is no indifferencie but what argument bring ye to proue that the Popes legate should be president thereof Especially considering say you that aboue ten hundreth yeares past in disputations of matters of faith whereto the Catholikes were prouoked in Aphrica the saide Catholikes required that at the saide disputations should be present the Legates of the sea of Rome as the chiefe and principall sea of Christendome Ye forget M. St. that in Aphrica likewise the Catholikes refused the B. of Rome his anthoritie and detected his falshoode in forging of Canons therefore Wel let that now go as forgotten And let vs sée your argument which in effect is this Aboue ten hundreth yeres past when the sea of Rome florished in more perfect religion and faith the Catholickes of Aphrica in their disputations of faith required that at the sayd disputations should be present the
Legates of the sea of Rome as the chiefe principall sea of Christendome Ergo We now in all our disputations of causes Ecclestastical especially concerning the supremacie should acknowledge the Pope by his Legates to be president thereof This argument followeth not M. Stapl. reasoning from that tune to this from their requiring to our submission from Aphrike to England from presence to presidence from certaine questions to all questions from matters of saithe to these in hande which your selfe say are nons From the chiefe and principall sea then to the vniuersall supremacie that the Pope claymeth now in all which pointes there is no sequele and therefore your argument is starke naught nor all your vayne excuses will hide their frowarde disobedience or strengthen the weaknesse of their naughtie cause in the saide disputation But let vs now saith M. St. returne to M. Horne for these matters were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Stapleton looked quite besides his marke The third Diuision THe third Diuision sheweth the cause and occasion why M. Feck deliuered this his treatise to the Bishop not as he pretendeth to be resolued at the Bishops handes for he had sayd before that the matter it selfe was grounded here pointyng to his brest that shall neuer go out But beyng charged of the B. herefore that he had neither conscience nor constancie M. Feckenham shewed and deliuered this his treatise to the B. to shew what he had suffred for the same and how it was grounded and setled in him long before Which argueth first his falshood in pretending to haue offred the booke before to the B. as scruples by him to be resolued in And also his furder falshood in setting forth of his owne bald resolutions to his scruples vnder the B. name To the former parte M. Stapleton replieth it is an vnlikely tale and referreth it to his score of vntruthes Where it is answered vnto The later parte for the resolutions he leaueth it to a place more apropriate where the matter shal be more conueniently and more fully discused And this is all that he saith for the cléering of M. Feckenhams false title The fourth Diuision MAster Feckenham in the beginning of his treatise propounding one chiefe purpose and entente as he saithe of this Othe to be for a more sauegarde to be had of the Queenes royall person and her highnesse most quiet and prosperous raigne Offreth to sweare thus muche that her Highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme and of all other her Highnesse dominions and Countries according as the expresse woordes are in the beginning of the sayde Othe And offreth yet furder to sweare That her Highnesse hath vnder God the souerainetie and rule ouer all manner of persons borne within these her Highnes realmes of what estate either Ecclesiasticall or Temporall soeuer they be To this the B. of Winchester answereth that this beyng one chiefe entent of the Othe as is graunted whosoeuer denieth the chiefe parte of the Othe what soeuer in wordes he pretende in his deedes denieth withall the chiefe entent therof But M. Feckenham doth thus Ergo How soeuer by woordes he would seeme to tender her Maiesties safetie his deedes declare his meanyng to be cleane contrarie The Minor that M. Feck denieth the principall parte of the Othe he proueth thus The principallest parte of the Othe is the Q. Highnes supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall so well as Temporall but about this M. Feck dalieth with dominions and persons denieth the causes which is the matter it selfe wherein the gouernance doth consist Ergo He denieth the chiefest parte of the Othe The Maior that the gouernance in Ecclesiasticall causes is the chiefest thing that the Othe doth purporte is euident The Minor as it appereth by this nice daliance of M. Feck so the B. furder proueth it by this his treatise by his deepe sighes grones desiring a change and ascribing to the Pope this principall parte of the Othe M. St. to counterblast these the B. arguments bloweth apace with bothe his chéekes With the one breathing out dispitefully all riffe raffâ—… that he coulde gleane togither to deface as he thought the protestantes with disobedience With the other he laboreth to qualifie the disobedience of the Papists namely of M. Feckenham But before these two partes wherein the most of his replie consisteth he prefixeth yet one page declaring first that this parcell of the Othe is no parte of the Princes royall power and wherefore the Papists refuse the same First saith he There haue bene many kings in this realme before our time that haue raigned vertuously quietly prosperously most honorably and most victoriously which neuer dreamed of this kinde of supremacie and yet men of such knowledge that they could soone espie wherein their authoritie was empayred and were of such courage and stoutnesse that they would not suffer at the Popes handes or at any other any thing done derogatorie to their Royall power This argument standeth vpon the opinioÌ„ of Princes heretofore and is framed thus What soeuer the noble and prosperous Kinges to fore tooke to be so or tooke not to be so the same was and is so or was not and is not so But many noble and prosperous Kings heretofore tooke this kinde of supremacie to be no parte of their royall power Ergo It was not nor is any parte thereof The Maior which God wote is very fonde and weake he would furnishe and strengthen with their wisedome and stoutnesse if it had bâ—…ne iniuriouâ—… to their authoritie they were so wise they could soone espie it were so stoute they would not suffer it But who seeth not that they could not very soone espie it in that palpable darknesse of poperie and that worldly politike wisedome is no good proofe of soone espying the spirituall wisdome of God and his worde and of their dutie in setting forth thereof This knowledge was not so clerely espied then as thanks be to God now it is being pulled froÌ„ vnder the bushell wherewith it was couered and the Angel of darknesse being stripped out of that shape of the Angell of light that when he was cladde withall be bleared many wise Princes eyes And though many of them were coragious stoute yea espied to what belonged vnto them attempted also to get it yet who seeth not that the Popes tirannie ouermatched them And yet suche Princes were there many wise stoute and vertuouse that dreamed not as you say but well saw this their authoritie and tooke it on them and withstood the Popes vsurpation Which improueth your Maior that ye would séeme to cary away so cléere And withall ouerturneth your argument by the like Some Princes thought it was no parte of their royall power Ergo it was not Some Princes thought it was parte of their royall power Ergo it was Neyther of these argumentes ye sée doth holde for still the matter is where it was who thought so or who