not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
purpose A. D. §. 1. As this one infallible and entire faith is necessary to saluation to all sorts of men as well vnlearned as learned so we must say that almightie God Qui vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire who would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of truth hath for proofe that this of his part is a true will prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith and that the onely cause why any man misseth of the true faith is either because he doth not seeke out and find this rule and meanes or hauing found it he will not vse it and in all points submitting his owne sense selfe opinion and proper iudgement obediently yeeld assent vnto it as the nature of diuine faith and the dutie of euery Christian bindeth him to do This is proued because if Almightie God hath a true will of his part to leade all men to this happie end of eternall saluation as it may be plainly proued that he hath out of Scripture and Fathers he must needs prouide them sufficient meanes by which it may at least be possible for them to attaine that end For we neuer say that God hath a will to do any thing vnlesse he do either absolutely worke the thing or at least prouide meanes sufficient by which it is possible to be done But vnlesse there be such a rule or meanes prouided by which euery one learned and vnlearned may attaine to this one infallible and entire faith of which I haue spoken before there are not sufficient meanes prouided by which it is possible for all men to come to saluation sith as I proued without that faith it is vnpossible for any one to come to saluation Therefore we must needs say that Almightie God hath prouided this rule or meanes by which euery man euen the most vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed in matters of faith A. W. Whether your comparison by which you propound this point be of likenesse or equalitie I see not what agreement the one part can haue with the other But to let that passe because it is of no great moment I am now earnestly to request all men Protestants and Papists who will vouchsafe to reade my answer that they would giue me leaue to examine this treatise by the light of true reason and themselues take a little paines more then ordinary in the vnderstanding of it We are then first of all to remember that the summe of this treatise was propounded by the author himselfe in his preface to this effect That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commendeth to vs is without doubt to be holden for the true faith and that the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commendeth to vs is that faith Now then these two points being proued that which was intended is dispatched and either of these failing the matter is still in question For proofe of the former proposition or sentence he disputeth on this maner That we must needs admit an infallible authoritie in the Catholicke Church by reason whereof euery one must learne of it onely what is the true faith Now he addresseth himselfe to the proofe of this last proposition which as I shewed in my answer to the Preface is the assumption of his second Syllogisme and thus he reasoneth If God haue not prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith vnlesse we admit such an authority then we must needs admit it But God hath not prouided any rule or meanes vnlesse we admit such an authoritie Therefore we must needs admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church The ground of the proposition or maior is this that God will haue all as well vnlearned as learned to be saued Which being vnderstood I answer concerning the consequence of the proposition that it is false I will be as plaine as I can that euery one may vnderstand me If his meaning be that we must admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church because without it there are no sufficient meanes of saluation for euery particular learned and vnlearned man I deny the consequence of his proposition For neither is it necessary to saluation that a man should be infallibly instructed in all points questions doubts of faith and God neuer had any purpose that euery particular man should be affoorded that meanes of saluation I will not spend time nor labor in this point it may be proued sufficiently by this his argument For these means he imagineth of a visible Church alwayes continuing are not such but that before the comming of our Sauiour and since also many thousands haue liued and died which could neuer haue any suspition or thought of such a Church Till it pleased our Sauiour to send his Apostles with a generall commission the knowledge of him was shut vp within the land of Iewry or at the most was heard of but in the countries neare adioyning After the commission giuen it asked some time for the Apostles to disperse themselues ouer the world and in that time many thousands must needs die without the knowledge of our Sauiour Christ But what speake I of the beginnings of the Gospell How many countries are there in which no steps of the Gospell haue bene to which no little sound of it hath come for many hundred yeares Austin sayth that in his time there were many nations to whom the Gospell had not then bene preached yea it was commonly held amongst the auncient writers that the day of iudgement should speedily ensue after the Gospell had bene preached in all the world If you vrge that place of Timothie that God wil haue all men to be saued you shall be answered by one of your owne side that all signifies all kind of men not euery man of euery kind of euery kind many They are called all saith Fulgentius because God saueth them out of euery nation condition age out of euery prouince of euery language So doth Austin expound that text in diuers places though hee bring also some other interpretations but all against the conceits of men that would haue all taken for euery one The like exposition he giueth of that in the Gospell I wil draw all to me All kinds of men in all languages in all ages in all degrees of honor in all diuersities of dispositions and wits in all professions of arts lawful and profitable c. Holkot not the meanest of your school-men maketh this sense of those words God will haue all men to be saued that is saith he God hath made all men capable
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
magis auari magis ab omni misericordia remoti magis immodesti indisciplinati multoue deteriores quà m fuerunt in Papatu Men are now more reuengefull more couetous more vnmercifull more vnmodest and vnruly and much worse then when they were Papists The like testimonie you may find giuen by another of their Doctors called Smidelinus which for breuitie sake I omit But chiefly their company is not holy because there was neuer yet Saint or holy man of it neither is their doctrine such as may of it selfe leade the most precise obseruers of it to holinesse but doth by diuers points which haue bin taught rather incline men to libertie and loosnesse of life As for example it inclineth them to breake fasting dayes and to cast away secret confession of sinnes to a Priest both which are knowne to be soueraigne remedies against sinne Also it inclineth them to neglect good workes for they hold them either not to be necessary or not meritorious of life euerlasting which must needs make men lesse esteeme the practise of them Also it maketh men carelesse in keeping Gods commaundements because diuers Protestants if not all hold them vnpossible to be obserued and as it is said impossibilium non est electio No man chooseth or laboureth to atchieue that which he thinketh to be altogether vnpossible It maketh men also not to feare or not to be carefull to auoid sin because it is held among them that whatsoeuer we do is sinne and that we cannot chuse but continually sinne and that all sinnes are of themselues mortall which whosoeuer thinketh how can he be afraid to sinne sith stultum est timere quod vitari non potest it is foolishnesse to feare that which no way can be auoided Finally their doctrine of predestination is able to make men carelesse or desperate in all actions and consultations sith some of them hold all things so to proceeds of Gods eternall predestination that man in matters of Religion at the least hath no free-will to do well or to auoid ill but that God himselfe is author and moueth them effectually and forcibly not only to good works but in the same sort vnto the act of sinne Lo whither this doctrine leadeth a man which giueth grounds which of themselues incline a man to neglect all indeuour in the studie and practise of vertue and to cast away care of auoiding sinne and vice and consider whether this can be a good tree which of it owne nature bringeth foorth so badde fruite And see whether this companie which teacheth and beleeueth such pointes of vnholie doctrine can possiblie be a Holy Church In the Romane Church I confesse there be some sinfull folke all in it are not good For the Church is called nigra formosa blacke and faire in it are mixed good and bad as out of diuers parables of our Sauiour I prooued before But there are two differences betwixt the sinfull which are in the Romane Church and those which are among Sectaries The first difference is that among hereticks there are none which we may call truly holy of which as of the better or more worthie part their congregation may be termed Holy as the Romane Church may It may be perhaps that one may finde diuers of them who abstaine from grosse outward sinnes as stealing swearing c. And that some of them do many workes morally good as to giue almes to the needie and that they liue at least in outward shew in vpright moderate sort But alasse these be not sufficient or certain signes of sanctitie all this and perhaps farre more we may reade of heathen Philosophers These outward actions may proceed of naturall and sometime of sinfull motiues and consequently they may be verie farre from true holinesse which must be grounded in true charitie for as Saint Paule saith to distribute all that one hath to feed the poore or to giue ones bodie to burne doth nothing auaile without charitie which charitie must proceed de corde puro conscientia bona fide non ficta out of a pure heart and a good conscience and an vnfained faith The which things being most inward and consequently hidden in secret cannot sufficiently be shewed to others by those outward actions which may come from other causes as soone as from these Nay they cannot be knowen certainely of the partie himselfe For nescit homo vtrùm odio vel amore dignus sit a man knoweth not whether he be worthie of hate or loue and quis potest dicere mundum est cor meum Who can say my heart is cleane but these things are reserued to him onely qui scrutatur corda who searcheth the hearts to with Almightie God and it cannot be perfectly knowne of men who haue them truly and consequently who be truly Saints vnlesse it please him to reueale it by miracle or some other certaine way vnto vs. But hitherto it was neuer heard that Almightie God did by miracle or any such certaine way giue testimony that either Luther or Caluin or any of their fellowes or followers had in thē this true holinesse or that they were saints but rather while as they presumptuously attēpted to work miracles it hath pleased God by giuing either none or euill successe to testifie that they were not Saints Whereas on the contrarie side it hath pleased God to giue testimonie by miracles of the faith and holinesse of life of diuers which professed the Romane faith of which sort I might bring in many examples but I will at this time onely name Saint Bernard Saint Dominicke Saint Francis who on the one side were certainly knowne to haue bene professors of that religion which was then and is now professed at Rome as may appeare both by that which is left written of their liues and also by this that they were chiefe fathers and founders of certaine Religious orders of Monkes and Friers which yet continue there and on the other side they are certainly knowne to be holy men partly by their sober chast and vertuous life partly by the gift of miracles in so much that euen Luther himselfe and other of our aduersaries confesse them to haue bene Saints The which being confessed of these must needs inferre the like confession of the sanctitie of mante other who were also professors of the same Romane faith whose names we may finde registred in the Calender euen in bookes set out by Protestants and whose vertuous life holie death and miraculous deeds we may finde in good Authors See Saint Athanas in vita S. Antonij apud Surium S. Bernard in vita S. Malachiae S. Antoninus 3. parte hist titulo 23. 24. Surius throughout his large volumes of the liues of Saints and others Now this being confessed that diuers whom we know to haue bene members of the Romane Church are Saints we may well inferre that at least some part of this Church is holy and
we said as you slaunder vs that whatsoeuer we do is sin are there therefore no degrees in sinne or is it all one to sin by infirmitie and wilfulnesse What if a sicke man cannot by any meanes recouer his perfect health againe shall he therefore refuse to keepe a good diet and grow to as much strength as for his weaknesse he can attaine to But what Protestant euer said that whatsoeuer we do is sinne It is one thing to say as we do that sinne by our corruption cleaues fast to our best works another thing to auouch as you falsly charge vs that all we do is sinne Neither is it foolishnesse to feare that which cannot be auoided if by our feare we can make it lesse hurtfull to vs. Yea it is a point of great discretion to labour all we can against sinne though we cannot wholly rid our selues of it because by this meanes our actions shall be free from the imputation of those sins and receiue an vndeserued reward at the hands of God our mercifull Father in Iesus Christ You vndertooke to proue that the doctrines of our Church are vnholy now you tell vs that some Protestants hold this and that Is this to make good that you propounded But what Protestants can you name that euer taught that God moueth men effectually and forcibly not onely to good workes but in the same sort to the act of sinne Is it your ignorance or your malice that maketh you charge vs with that which we alwayes denie and refute We say there is no force or coaction either in good or euil actions and distinguish betwixt necessitie and constraint All things come to passe necessarily in regard of the euent according to the prouidence and predestination of God But this hinders not the working of secundary causes according to their seuerall natures Besides though we hold that there is a necessitie of infallibilitie as well in good actions as in sinnes so that whatsoeuer God hath decreed and he hath decreed all things that come to passe shall certainly fall out according to his decree yet we make a great difference betwixt good and euill actions by teaching that the one are done by the worke of Gods spirit in our hearts the other by the corruption of our nature without any warrant or motion in vs from God Further in those good actions which we performe the Lord doth not onely worke by vs as by instruments without sense or reason but according to our nature enlightening our vnderstanding and sweetly inclining our affection without any force against our nature to the approuing of that which he would haue vs do and following vs by the perswasion of his spirit till he haue brought vs ineuitably to the performance of that which he hath decreed So that wee doe nothing but willingly but to good we are made willing by God both for the power and act to euill we need no assistance but the corruption of our owne hearts and the temptations of the diuell Lo whither the malice of Antichrists vassals driues them both to auouch that for truth against the Church of God which is vtterly false and to gather leud consequences of true doctrin and consider whether they haue cause to brag of holinesse who will do nothing that is good but for hope of hire and aduance their owne deseruings aboue Gods bountie and then tell me if you can perswade your conscience that such a companie of Pharisaicall merit-mongers are likely to be the true Church of God You confesse there be some sinfull folke in the Romane Church but your confessions if a man might haue the hearing of them would testifie that there are none but sinfull folk amongst you It is rehearsed by the secretary of Sixtus 5. for a singular commendation of Pius the fift that the Cardinall of Theano and the Bishop of Bagnarea who had bin his confessors many yeres affirmed that he neuer accused himselfe in confession of any mortall sinne And do you come out with There are some sinfull folke and all in it are not good Call to minde what I alledged before out of Bernard against your whole Cleargie that is as you count your whole Church Or let that passe and heare him speake more generally From the head to the foote saith Bernard of your Church there is no part whole And againe The whole multitude of Christian people hath conspired against Christ In another place he saith that a filthy contagion had spred it selfe ouer the whole Church The law saith Breiden bachius is departed from the Priests iustice from the Princes counsell from the auncient faith from the people loue from parents reuerence from subiects charitie from prelates religion from Monks good order from yong men Neither was it thus onely in places farre distant from your holy Fathers sight but in his court vnder his nose in his bed chamber and studie There saith Bernard of your Popes palace the wicked grow forward the godly grow backward Whatsoeuer perfidiousnesse and deceit saith Petrarke who liued in Rome perhaps secretary to the Pope whatsoeuer vnmercifulnesse and pride whatsoeuer impietie and leudnesse of behauiour the world hath or hath had scattered here and there all that you may see and find heaped vp together in the citie of Rome Iohn Boccace who liued at the same time complaineth that not onely the courtiers but also the Pope Cardinals and Prelates liued most filthily and sinned not onely by naturall lust but by that too which is against nature without bridle remorse of conscience or shame I forbeare to set downe any particulars whereof Platina and other that write the liues of your Popes are full because I take no pleasure in laying open your shame and it is alreadie performed in diuers of our writers Only I must needs say that I cannot sufficiently wonder at your boldnes who talke to Englishmen of your holinesse when there is no man of our nation so yong or so ignorant but is able to conuince the Pope himselfe and his Priests and Iesuites of horrible rebellions and treasons against our late Queene of blessed memory and our whole estate But what shall I need to seeke far off Was there euer the like monstrous and vnnatural example of treason murder among the most sauage of the heathen to that incredible attempt of your holy ones for the destruction of King Queene Prince Nobilitie Counsell Iudges Gentrie and Commons all at one blow Barbarous and bloudie Nero is abhorred by all men because he did wish that all the Senators of Rome had but one necke that he might cut them all off at once But your sauagenesse iustifies his crueltie he was but a pidler to your Iesuites and Papists who with one cracke would haue taken away both Senate and people There is more cause of feare that posteritie will neuer beleeue the true report of this execrable attempt it is so like rather to a
the doctrine of that Church in the fundamentall points of iustification or rather your Church now is fallen away from the truth in that matter Thou saith Bernard to our Sauiour Christ art made vnto me of God righteousnesse shal I feare lest that one be not sufficient for vs both It is not a shore cloake that cannot couer it will couer both thee and me largely being both a large eternall Iustice As for our righteousnes Bernard altogether as we do acknowledgeth it to be true but vnperfect Our humble righteousnesse if there be any is true perhaps saith he but not pure vnlesse perchance we thinke our selues better then our forefathers who said no lesse truely then humbly all our righteousnesse is as the clouts of a menstruous woman For how can there be pure righteousnesse wheras yet there cannot be fault wanting VVe will not striue greatly with you for Francis or Dominicke though many absurd doctrines which your Church now holds were not in their daies nor before them defined by any Councell nor acknowledged by many of your Diuines To proue that these three were of your Church as it is now you alledge that which is left written of their liues and the religious orders of Monkes and Friers founded by them What is written of them and by whom Doth any man in penning their liues affirme that they held the same things in all points that your Church now holds I trow not But if he do who told him so If he liued in their times he was no prophet to foresee what would be maintained in your Church some hundreds of yeares after his death If he be a late writer what reason haue we to giue credit to him in such a matter farther then he is able to make good that he saith by shewing such an agreement betwixt their doctrine and that which now you teach That they haue left certaine orders behind them we denie not which may serue to proue that they thought it needfull to haue people instructed in the knowledge of the Gospell by preaching and some trained vp of purpose to performe that dutie which was the first end of monasteries But it is no easie matter to shew that your Monkes and Friers are now gouerned according to the rules appointed by them nor any inconuenience for vs to graunt that they were of your opinion touching Frieries and monasteries which are matters far from the foundation of Religion as long as there is no opinion of merit or perfection annexed thereunto The second thing you affirme of them is that they were holy men certainly knowne to be so We are willing in charitie to thinke the best we may and therefore are not hastie to condemne them we know not But this our iudgment is not of certaintie vnlesse we may haue better proofe for it then this you bring Their liues you say and miracles testifie as much But first who shall assure vs that they liued so holily and wrought such miracles Wee must haue certaine knowledge that they were holy men who writ and reported these things ere we can vpon their credit beleeue that they so behaued themselues Secondly put case that their liues were as they are said to haue bene haue you forgotten what you writ a little before It cannot be perfitly knowne of men say you who haue truly a good conscience and an vnfained faith and consequently who be truly saints vnlesse it please God to reueale it by miracle or some other certaine way vnto vs. Thirdly if you thinke to strike it dead by the report of their miracles Biel hath taught vs that they are oftentimes wrought by the diuell or shew made of them by Priests as Lyra saith And Bellarmine resolues that we cannot be assured which be true miracles which false but by the iudgement of the Church Then are we very far from certaine knowledge that these men were holy I meane such knowledge as you speake of that may be a ground of faith to teach vs infallibly which is the true Church by the holinesse of the members thereof But Luther and other of our men confessed them to haue bene saints It had bene plaine dealing to haue said holy men whereas you craftily say saints as if Luther had giuen some approbation of your saints canonized But do Luther and Melanckthon hold them for saints because of their miracles or as a thing certainly knowne to them How could they vnderstand what they were but by report They iudged charitably of them according to the opinion that was of them in the world And for my part I am perswaded of Bernard that he was a man of a sincere heart and true sanctification But for Francis if the report of his fiue wounds be true I will not doubt to affirme that he was either a wretched hypocrite in faining that miracle or a silly ideot to be so abused by the diuell The tale lies thus that this same Saint Francis forsooth should haue in his side hands and feete such wounds as our Sauiour had which continued always green and were made in his bodie by I know not what streames that issued from the Crucifixe from the side hands and feete thereof to his side hands and feete This matter being cunningly caried by this Pope-holy saint a woman saint one Katharine of Sene counterfetted the like and with like successe Afterward euen of late yeares there was the like practise by one Marie a Prioresse in Portugall of Saint Dominicks order who caried the matter very cleanly for a time till it pleased God to discouer her cousinage by meanes of certaine of the Nunnes who thought scorne that she should be a saint rather then they and therefore watched her so narrowly and gaue out such suspicious speeches of her that at last the whole packe of her dissembling was opened and she enioyned fauourable penance of fasting and praying c. There is extant a most abhominable treatise of Saint Francis conformitie to Christ wherein hee is at the least equalled if not preferred before him But because this was none of Francis owne doing let it be as it is the blasphemous sinne of your Church Dominicke was little better then his fellow Francis as his Legend sheweth Vpon these premisses thus weakly proued you bring in two conclusions the former that this holinesse being confessed of those three must needs inferre the like confession of the sanctitie of many other who were also professors of the same Romane faith If their profession had bene the cause of their holinesse then you had not gathered much amisse But their holinesse if the two latter had any arose from their true faith in Christ wrought in them by the holy Ghost the author of that faith But there were many in their times as resolute maintainers of the Romish Religion as they who neuer attained to any such opinion of holinesse and the faith you Romanists now professe is in maine points of
that second property of your rule when I answered to your proposition A man may be saued though he vnderstand not the true sense of euery verse in the Bible so he do not acknowledge it to be the word of God and withall denie it to be true But if it be so hard to vnderstand the Scripture aright is it good dealing in you to vrge the expositions of men with such perē ptorinesse as if it were an hainous sinne not to giue credit to euery interpretation of the Fathers We acknowledge their learning and pietie but we remember they are men and therefore may be deceiued Where they bring reason for their expositions we consider of it with reuerence to them where they bring none we trie whether we can bring any proofe of their interpretation If we finde none we labour to expound the text so as true reason so farre as we can iudge shewes that we ought to doe Where our weakenesse affoords no proofe for our interpretation nor against theirs we are willing and readie to giue more credit to them then to our selues But it is no disgrace to them that processe of time by Gods blessing vpon mens endeauours should bring somewhat to light now which in former ages hath not bene vnderstood It cannot be hidden from any man saith your Bishop of Rochester that many things are now more cleerely beaten out and vnderstood as well in other things as in the Gospell then heretofore because the ancient writers had not the Ice broken before them neither did their time suffice to sound the deepth of Scripture in all places VVe may adde hereunto another reason obserued by Stella that though of our selues we were but Pigmees or dwarfes yet being carried vpon the shoulders of them as it were vpon Giants we may see farther then they could VVhich is the reason why an other of your writers doubts not to affirme that the latter doctrines or expositions are the quicker sighted But diuers men you say expound diuersly and thereupon you demaund how any man can be sure he expounds truly hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason VVhen I read this obiection me thought I saw one of the old Academicks or Scepticks sweating to prooue that there is no truth in any thing to be knowen but that we must be content to rest vpon likelihood I pray you answer me in good earnest Are you perswaded of your selfe I speake to a Scholler that you vnderstand not the true meaning of any one place in Aristotles Physicks with the commentaries vpon him expounding diuersly Surely if your ignorance had bene so great I presume neither Rome Rhemes Doway nor any other Vniuersitie or Colledge would haue vouchsafed you the degree of a Batcheler in Arts. And yet Aristotle himselfe professeth of that booke that he set it out as if he had not set it out because no bodie for sooth could vnderstand it but he that had or should heare him teach by word of mouth as you speake of the preaching of the Church If then it be possible to vnderstand Aristotles meaning and that certainly for all the diuers interpretations of his expositors and his owne intended obscuritie giue vs leaue to thinke that the Lord God purposing to reueale his will by the scriptures hath written in such sort that man his creature to whom as Gregorie saith he writ them may without any iust cause of doubting vnderstand so much at the least as is necessarie for his saluation which was Gods end in writing But euerie interpreter thinks that himselfe hath attained to the right sense What of that Therefore is there no meanes to discerne which interpretation is true which false Doth not this doubt accompanie the writings of the Philosophers as well as the scriptures Neuer go about to perswade vs to such an iniurious and vnthankfull conceit towards God as to imagine that he hath vouchsafed vs the vse of reason and the treasure of his word to so little purpose If it be vnpossible to know whē we haue the true sense of the scripture it had bene farre better that no scripture had bene written but all left to the direction of your Pope frō time to time Such blasphemies as I haue shewed some of your side vtter but a true Christiā is so throughly perswaded of Gods wisdom that by his giuing the scripture he seeth al these your cauils shifts refuted Now in the last place you tell vs that there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of scripture which are found in very few If by perfect vnderstanding you meane an exact knowledge of all places that you say is true but not much to the purpose For there is no such knowledge necessary but that the scripture may be the rule of faith though euery text in it cannot be certainly vnderstood But consider a little that if there be means of attaining to a perfect vnderstāding of scripture thogh they be many yet by your confession they may be had else are they in vaine if neither any man nor all men can attaine vnto them some to one some to more as it pleaseth God to bestow his gifts seuerally If you meane that many things are required to a perfect vnderstanding of points necessarie to saluation see how much you differ from the iudgement of the ancient Fathers The truth is not hid saith Chrysostom but from thē that will not seeke it And in an other place The Scripture expoundeth it selfe suffereth no man to erre Let him that hath an heart saith Austin read those things that go before and those that follow and he shall finde the sense For as Ierome truly saith the Lord hath spoken by his Gospell not that a few should vnderstand him but that all should Austin gaue vs the reason before why he speakes plaine in some places and not in all To feed our hunger and to keepe our queasie stomacks from loathing our meate But you require I know not what infallible assurance that they which haue these gifts may be sure they neuer erre in any of their priuate expositions What assurance looke you for No reuelation I hope They may be sure not to erre if they deliuer no expositions but such as they can euidently prooue to be true For other places where the sense is hard let them vse all the diligence they can and if it prooue not verie plaine and certaine let thē leaue it y vncertain til it please God some other man may finde the true meaning of it and so make it knowen to men for the rule of faith in that point it concerneth as it is alwaies in it selfe Are youe afraid lest it should come to passe hereby that many matters of faith should be vnknowen The ignorance of these things cannot hinder a mans saluation and this inconuenience followeth the preaching of your Church as well as the reading of
their exceeding great harme And at least how soeuer their priuate affection selfe-loue encline them to think well of themselues and of that spirit which they permit to teach them those singuler points of new strange doctrine yet sure it is that this their perswasion of the goodnesse of their spirit is not infallible as the rule of faith must be sith diuers now adaies perswade themselues in the same manner to be taught by the holy spirit and yet one of them teaching against another it is not possible that all that thus perswade themselues should be taught by this spirit sith this spirit doth neuer teach contrarie to it selfe And therefore some in this their perswasion must needs be deceiued And therefore who hauing no testimonie of euident miracle or some other vndoubted proofe dare arrogantly affirme that he onely is not deceiued especially in such sort as to condemne all other and to propose himselfe to himselfe and others as the onely sufficient rule of faith considering that others who presume perswade themselues altogether in like manner are in this their perswasion deceiued A. W. I must againe put the Reader in minde that no Protestant maintaines that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith neither will I vndertake the defence of any such matter but onely examine his reasons against it as I haue done in the former chapters in the like case His reason is thus to be concluded The rule of faith must be infallible plaine knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall A priuate spirit is not such Therefore a priuate spirit is not the rule of faith Of the proposition I spake at the sixth chapter and shewed the fault of it in respect of the second propertie which is easinesse to be vnderstood of all men as it is expounded by your selfe All the doubt now is in the assumption of the three points wherin you go about to prooue but only the first of infallibility It should seeme your stomacke is greater against the scripture then against either natural wit learning or priuate spirit For you disprooue the abilitie of these two but in respect of one property namely the first as if for the other two they or either of them were sufficient enough But you allow the Scripture neuer a one of the three you condemne it of obscuritie you accuse it of defect for wanting diuers points necessarie to saluation And although you do not simply denie the infallibilitie of it yet you make all knowledge that can be had out of our English translation verie vncertaine so that none of our people can haue any benefite by the scripture as by the rule of faith or word of God but onely some few that vnderstand Hebrew or Greeke But I perceiue you were more afraid that the scripture would be taken for the rule of faith then you were that either of the other would Let vs see how you proue your assumption since you wil needs put your selfe to more paines then was looked for He say you that cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is taught by the holy Ghost cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is so taught Therefore a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith There is some cause to doubt of your maior For it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should know it selfe to be the rule The Pope you thinke is the rule of faith Put case that some Pope should doubt whether himselfe were infallibly directed in all his determinations by the holy Ghost or no should he by reason of this doubting cease to be the rule of faith I dare say you thinke not so Neuer vrge me with the impossibilitie of this matter For both it is possible if he that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome If Iohn the 22 doubted of the immortalitie of the soule if Leo 10. counted the history of our Sauiour Christ a fable and it is all one to my answer whether it may be or no it is enough for me if the Pope may be the rule though he should so doubt You should haue done well if you had kept your former warie course of adding some exception to your assumption It had not bene altogether without need For out of question a priuate spirit may be so assured by reuelation as the Prophets and Apostles were And by such meanes a man may come to assurance for all the subtiltie of Sathan the Lord being able to make the motions of his spirit knowen to whom he please what shift soeuer Sathan vse to the contrarie The Minor therefore without this exception be either expressed or vnderstood is vntrue otherwise it is true As for the triall you propound by the touchstone of the true pastors of the Catholicke Church it is vtterly insufficient in this case It may be and is indeed a meanes of great authoritie and vse to direct a man in finding out and holding the truth but it is no certaine proofe that a man hath found or doth hold the truth in all points because those pastors as in due place shall appeare may all be deceiued without the Popes especiall direction But admit their iudgement or authoritie were in the matter infallible yet could no man thereby be assured that himselfe is taught particularly by the holy Ghost For many men hold the truth of God as the true Church doth and yet haue no such teaching by the spirit since it is certaine a man may deliuer truth and he himselfe not beleeue Of your testimonies out of scripture touching the Pastors of the Church I will say onely thus much by the way that the Pastors can speake neither of those sentences truely of themselues but in a measure They know the deuises of Sathan but in part not wholy He that knoweth God heareth them not simply in all points for he that knoweth God may doubt of some point deliuered by the true Pastors of the Church who also are no farther to be heard then they can shew that they speake to be from God The Apostles euerie one of them seuerally knew all things which the Lord thought fit to make knowen to men and were to be heard without any doubting of that they deliuered with them that priuiledge died and all men now are tied to the triall of their doctrine by the scriptures The conclusion of this discourse concerneth either no man in the world or if any the Pope of Rome your Lord God For the Anabaptists themselues are not so absurd and shamelesse as to make any one of their sect the onely sufficient rule of all mens faith but euerie man claimeth though falsly and lewdly a priuiledge of not erring for himselfe Onely your insolent Pope will haue all men to depend vpon his iudgement and in comparison of himselfe disdaineth all writers and all Councils whatsoeuer What promises he hath
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
spirit of Christ. For Christ saith he is as the soule giuing life by the holy Ghost to his whole mysticall bodie But the holy Ghost quickens onely the elect not the reprobate too In the latter of the two places the same Cardinall expounds that being one in respect of charitie and Catharin a learned Popish Bishop vnderstands this bodie to be the holy Church consisting of them that are predestinate and called and iustified and glorified holy and faithfull Of the last place I spake sufficiently before Agreement in the truth is the marke we looke at This you adde to proue that to professe one and the same faith that is to be one is proper to the true church Your proofe is that Tertulliā saith that all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders Tertullian might truly say so of al heresies then known yet there may haue bin some since his time perhaps that haue kept alwayes the same errors without any change worth the speaking of But as I noted before since all heresies for a time hold their first errors continuance in the same profession can be no good marke of the true church vnles you can set downe a certaine number of yeares during which they must continue in one and the same faith or else be held for hereticks because of their changing Now in conclusion of this first marke I must obserue a few points for the Readers instruction First I desire it may be noted that whereas vnitie is made a principal marke by your writers they vnderstand as well vnitie of loue as of faith you require but the one of them and so giue vs but halfe a marke Secondly let it be obserued that this marke is either no marke at all or all one with ours so that whereas you trouble vs with more then this you make it much harder then we do to find out the true Church In the third place it would be considered what you meane by one and the same faith I presse you with your owne argument Continuing in one and the same faith in regard of some points only is no good marke because heretickes continue in some points of truth Continuing in all points can be no good mark for it is not only hard but vnpossible for a simple vnlearned man to be assured that any church hath alwayes continued in profession of one and the same faith in euery point yea this is infinitely harder then to discerne of all truth because the one is to be learned out of the Scriptures the other cannot be known but by searching the records of the church from time to time Of the one there is certaine knowledge to be had because the Scriptures are the word of God of the other the best assurance we can haue is but the testimonie of men that might erre by ignorance or partialitie Whatsoeuer doubts or difficulties you can imagine concerning the false translation or misunderstanding of the Scriptures the same wil accompanie all the writings of men touching the doctrine of the Church in all ages Then let any reasonable man iudge whether you or we shew them a better marke to know the true Church by A. D. §. 4. The true Church is also proued to be holy by that of S. Paul Templum Dei sanctum est quod estis vos The temple of God is holy which temple you are By which place notwithstanding S. Paul did not meane to signifie that euery one of this companie was holy For a little after in the same Epistle he saith to the same companie Omnino auditur inter vos fornicatio talis fornicatio qualis nec inter gentes There is plainly heard fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathen He doth not therefore I say meane that euery one of the Church is holy but that the whole companie is to be termed holy because the profession thereof doth of it selfe wholy tend to holinesse the doctrine being such as withdraweth from all vice and instructeth and moueth men to vertue the Sacraments also do not onely signifie but in the vertue which they haue from Christ his passion they also worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie Wherefore although euery one that is in the Church be not holy yet no doubt alwayes some are the which their holinesse it pleaseth Almightie God to testifie and make knowne sometime by miracle and ordinarily he vseth to make it apparent enough by the light of their vertuous actions which at all times in many members of the true Church do so shine before men that by it men are moued to glorifie God and sometimes to imitate in their owne life that which in others they admire And whatsoeuer member of the Church faileth from this holinesse of life it is euident that the fault is onely in himself who liueth not according to the prescript of his professiō nor vseth in due sort those means which it hath of the holy Sacraments which as I said before are effectuall instruments of sanctification Contrariwise no sect of hereticks is truly holy neither was there euer any person that did inuent or obstinatly adhere vnto any sect of heresie which had in him true sanctitie And no maruel because the very profession and doctrine it selfe of euery heresie is opposite to the very rootes of true sanctitie the which rootes be true Christian faith and humilitie For how can he be truly holy and iust who being possessed with the spirit of heresie must needs be depriued of true faith without which the iust man cannot liue according to that saying of S. Paul Iustus ex fide viuit Or how can he be holy that doth not only not humble himselfe like a little one submitting himselfe to euery humane creature for Gods sake but doth proudly oppose himselfe against the vniuersall Church it selfe whom God hath willed and commanded vs to heare no otherwise then himselfe For wanting this humilitie and consequently the grace of God which is denied to the proud and giuen to the humble there is no doubt but that howsoeuer such a man seemeth in his outward behauiour he can haue no true sanctitie within him the which true sanctitie failing inwardly it is hard for him to beare himselfe so but that sometime or other by one occasion or other he shall euen outwardly manifest this his inward want as in these our daies heretickes commonly do in such apparent manner that it is no hard matter to discerne that they be not as some of them would haue the Church defined a companie of Saints A. W. Hauing shewed before that this discourse proceedeth not orderly as it should to the proofe of that which is propounded by you and denied by vs I will not stand to lay out the fault in euery particular but content my selfe with hauing done it once for all It
is your purpose in this place to prooue that the Church is holy A labour that might well haue bene spared for who euer denied it or doubted of it But let me againe put you in minde that when you haue prooued the Church to be holy you haue got nothing because euerie qualitie of the Church is not by and by a marke whereby it may be knowne It may be proper to the Church so that it can neuer be found but in the Church and yet not be alwaies there to be found It may also be true alwaies and yet not be alwaies visible But let vs see your proofe The Temple of God is holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is holy The holinesse you meane as you expound your selfe is true and inward sanctitie which you say is wrought by the Sacraments And this indeed is the holinesse which onely can make a man a Christian For Thomas truly saith He that is not annointed with the grace of the holy Ghost is not a Christian Hereupon before I answer to your Syllogisme I will make it manifest by your owne argument that holinesse is no good marke to know the Church by Euerie good marke of the Church must be easier to be knowne then the Church it selfe True inward sanctity is not easier to be known thē the Ch. it selfe Therefore true inward sanctitie is no good marke of the Church The Maior is yours in plaine words generally deliuered The second thing required in a good marke is that it be more apparent and easie to be knowne then the thing is The Minor is prooued by these words of yours in the same place The secret disposition of a mans heart is harder to be knowne then the man himselfe how then shall true inward sanctitie be easier to discerne then the men in whom it is If by Temple you vnderstand the whole company as you plainly auouch and by holinesse true inward sanctity I denie your Maior Because the whole companie makes not one person or subsistence wherein onely there is place for such habits or qualities True inward holinesse is a qualitie no where resident but in some speciall substance and therefore if the whole companie of the Church haue not a generall soule as Auerrois dreamed of the world it is vnpossible it should haue true inward holinesse It should seeme also you saw as much your selfe and therefore giue vs an other exposition of the place that the whole companie is to be termed holy In this sense you must conclude thus The Temple of God is to be termed holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is to be termed holy But this prooueth not that the Church is holy Do you thinke that the Nicene Councell when it deliuered it as an article of faith that we are to beleeue One holy Church meant nothing but that the Church was to be termed holy Yes they meant to teach vs that the true Church is truly holy being purged from the guilt of sinne by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Iesus Christ and indued with true habituall righteousnesse by the spirit of sanctification It is a poore marke to know the Church by to tell vs it is a companie that is to be termed holy What then is the Apostles meaning when he saith the Temple of God is holy Many interpreters take this whole passage of the Apostle frō the beginning of the 16. verse to be a reproofe particularly of the incestuous person and generally of all vncleane liuers and they by Temple vnderstand seuerall Christians sanctified by the Spirit of God who dwelleth in them and maketh them holy Thus do Cyrill Irenaeus and Cyprian apply the place Other whose iudgement in this text I rather follow thinke that the Apostle in these verses continueth his former discourse concerning the ministerie of the word diuersly vsed by diuers teachers some building vpon the foundation gold siluer and pretious stones other laying on it timber hay or stubble A third kind destroying the foundation by false doctrine of whom the Apostle here speaketh threatning them destruction because they destroy the Temple of God The reason whereof one of them giues in these words The Temple of God is holy To defile that which is holy saith Catharin deserueth destruction euen among the heathen For if any man hurt the walles of the Citie which the heathen accounted holy he was to die for it Now if this law were executed for the prophaning of walles and temples made with hands how much more ought the destroying of Christians who by faith and loue haue receiued the Lord Iesus be so seuerely punished Euen so much more saith Lyra as spirituall things are to be preferred before corporall By the Temple of God then the Apostle meaneth the congregations or Churches of professed Christians such as that of Corinth was These he saith are holy that is either consecrated to the worship of God which is the professed end of Christian assemblies or truly holy in regard that they make profession and so in charitie are to be taken but where the contrary euidently appeareth of being iustified and sanctified by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ You giue two other reasons of their being termed holy the one that the profession of religion of itselfe wholy tendeth to holinesse How can this be a good mark to know the true Church by when euery company wil say their doctrine hath the same end and he that will beleeue it of any company must know and be able to iudge of euery point they maintaine Your second is that the Sacraments worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie I will not enter into the question about the Sacraments what or how they worke it is nothing to the purpose But to the point what hereticall Church will not or may not say the like whether truly or falsely it skils not because that will aske a new examination such as euerie one that must know the Church cannot make Therefore this marke of holinesse is not a good marke to know the true Church by being inward and claimed by all companies of Christians Not onely some but all the members of the true Church of Christ are inwardly and outwardly holy being purged by his bloud and spirit And this their holinesse is so manifest ordinarily that there need none of your counterfeit miracles for the countenancing thereof especially since God neuer tooke that course in his Church to approoue any mans holinesse by the gift of miracles the vse whereof is to confirme doctrine when need requireth neither can any man from miracles conclude that he which worketh them is inwardly truly sanctified Was not Iudas one of them to whom power was giuen euen ouer the diuels Yet was he a thiefe a traitor and a diuell Many wil say vnto me in that day saith our Sauiour Lord haue we not by
ceremonie be added to the Masse but that it was set downe in historie how could the whole substance of the Masse be newly inuented and no mention made of it This consequence is weake For those additions to the Masse were matters enioyned by your Popes and recorded by your writers of Histories not as errours but as vertues to the commendation of the Authors thereof the world growing euerie day more and more superstitious and yet there are some ceremonies other patches of your Masse about the Author wherof there is no great agreement to be found in your writers of histories But the substance of your Masse was long comming in and the words themselues in it hauing bene deuised to no ill purpose were at at last occasion of errour vpon errour as it is worthily declared by the Lord Plessy in his booke of the Masse to which I referre all men that desire to be satisfied in this matter and where I dare vndertake they may finde good satisfaction The learned know of themselues how to haue it also otherwhere in the writings of our diuines Doctor Sutcliffe and diuers other Your latter obiection carrieth some more shew of likelihood with it in this sort If Historiographers were not afraid to note personall and priuate vices of the Popes themselues why should they feare to record any alteration in religion Do you not know why Or can you not discerne the difference in this case Of whom should they be afraid Your Popes for the most part were so notoriously lewd that all your Historiographers write of them was well knowne to the world before they writ so that they could not for shame but say in a manner as much as they did But the chiefe matter was that the latter Popes had quarrels to their predecessors which was verie ordinarie and then it was not onely safe but as it were meritorious to display their villany to the world or at the least they might imagine that the vices of their predecessors would serue for a foile to their vertues Sometimes also it fell out that the Pope in verie ciuill honestie had a detestation of such bad courses as other before him had taken that gaue men some liberty to write more freely But your change of doctrine neither could easily nor might at all be discouered because it was a priuitie of your estate and a principle of your religion with your Pope and Prelates that Saint Peters vicar could not erre in doctrine As for thē in other countries who knoweth not how few monuments of antiquitie remaine Or who suspecteth not iustly that they haue come through hucksters handling as in diuers it is more then apparent Yet are there also diuers records in the writings of learned men wherein any man may see direct opposition to many points held at this day in your Romish Church After many idle repetitions turnings and windings at the last you are lighted vpon a part of our answer that those errors and abuses crept in by little and little vnperceiued For replie whereto you say it is an idle fiction already refuted How idle then is this new discourse of yours against a point which you haue ouerthrowne before But you knew well enough for all your saying that it asked further help thē you could yet affoord it Well what say you at the last iust nothing at all to purpose For what though the matters be of great moment and lesse points noted by some writers We speake not of that but of the smal difference from the truth which at the first appeared in the bringing in and beginning of your heresies A matter of small importance being apparently contrary to that which is generally held to be true shall find more to note and resist it then an errour in the very foundation of religiō so closely carried that it cānot at the first be perceiued You giue vs two exāples of very important matters the Masse and Images But you offer not to shew that they brake out all at once to the height of impietie No no they came in by degrees vnder a colour of reuerence and helpe to further men in deuotion I wittingly for beare to enter into discourse of these points because I should be too long and the matter is already performed very excellently by that honorable personage the Lord Plessy for the Masse in his first booke and for Images in his second But I may not forget to answer the imputations you charge vs withal First concerning the Sacrament you confidently auouch that we hold it to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Wherein you shew that wherewith afterward you charge vs about Images either your ignorance or your malice By Sacrament we vnderstand according to the truth the whole action of blessing giuing receiuing the bread and wine The bread which you call the Sacrament is but part of the matter of the Sacrament But what Do we make this bread to be really and substantially bare bread Surely for the nature of it we say and are sure that it neuer ceaseth to be bread till it be digested in the stomacke But for the vse we acknowledge it so farre as it is vsed to be holy bread and not bare bread bread appointed blessed and made effectuall by God to seale vp in our hearts the assurance of his loue in giuing his sonne for our redemption and the forgiuenesse of our sinnes resting vpon him by faith for pardon Indeed we do not as you do blasphemously call the bread our Creator or God vpon a conceit that forsooth the substance of the bread is either vanished away or else turned into the bodie of Iesus Christ to be torne in peeces with our teeth or swallowed downe into our bellies and from thence bestowed in a worse place This senselesse and monstrous opinion hath bene and is amongst you the cause of the most grosse and barbarous idolatrie that euer was committed in the world It is neither ignorantly nor malitiously done of vs to charge you for adoring stocks and stones as the Paynims did Compare the things and the worship and then shew me a true difference Are not your Images of wood gold stone as the Gentiles were Haue they not the shape and proportion of men and women as theirs had Do not you worship them as diuers of the Heathen were wont to do You couer them with cloathing of purpose and wipe their faces because of the dust of the Temple You light vp candles before them you make their faces blacke through the smoake of your incense you beare them in procession vpon your shoulders you set gifts before them your Priests haue their heads and beards shauen you call vpon them for helpe you present the blinde the halt and sicke before them to be healed But what meane I to reckon vp so many particulars Who sees not the agreement betwixt the heathen and the Papists for the matter forme
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one