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A58877 Conversations upon several subjects in two tomes / written in French by Mademoiselle de Scudery ; and done into English, by Mr. Ferrand Spence.; Conversations sur divers sujets. English Scudéry, Madeleine de, 1607-1701.; Spence, Ferrand. 1683 (1683) Wing S2157; ESTC R5948 181,005 434

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elsewhere so many things to be desiderated in him that his Victory would not give him so much pleasure as might be imagined For my part said the lovely Cephisa judging pretty often of things by the event I always rejoice at what seems to be for my advantage For the right course of passing our days with delight is to proceed no further than the superficies of things by reason that as soon as you penetrate a little further even in Pleasures you meet with some bitterness as in some fruits which are hardly to be tasted to find 'em good What the fair Cephisa affirms said the wise Timocrates has more sence than it may seem to have That I grant said Telesila yet with this exception that I do not think we ought hardly ever to judge of any thing by the event But as for that superficies of things which Cephisa says we must content our selves with if we would spend our days in delight It may well be she has reason for it I believe in point of love said Aratus this to be very convenient for a little love diverts extreamly and a great Passion incommodes I did not well explain my self ●…eply'd Cephisa for I do not mean we ought only to have the superficies of things I say that in others we ought to look no further than that if we would not bring upon our selves a thousand vexations Thus if we are fond of seeing Lovers we must believe that all we see in them is Love If we would have friends we must content our selves with the testimonies of friendship which they give us without going to examine if they are sincere For if once you get a fancy of knowing them well those Lovers and those Friends will very often disappear and you will only find indiscreet or unconstant Lovers and faint ungrateful or perfidious Friends In a word we our selves must never destroy our Pleasure and we must peaceably enjoy what we find sweet and innocent in life But if that be so said Telesila we shall be eternally exposed to be deceived or else we shall have no friendship without it be a superficial amity as is that which has produced it For how is it possible to love that which we do not know Ah! my dear Telesila replied Cephisa do not tell me we can't love what we do not know For I 'll prove that all the World love themselves yet none know themselves All the Company laugh'd at what Cephisa said Certain it is said then the wise Timocrates that it is more difficult to know our selves well than to know others tho it be also full as necessary I grant said Lysiades that it is very necessary to know our selves well But I do not imagine it to be so difficult as to know others For I do not hide my self from my self as others use the disguise We must divine to know the hearts of others and need only observe our own to discover its most secret motions Ah! Lysiades rejoyn'd Telesila the difficulty of what the wise Timocrates says consists in having the will to know our selves and in doing what is requisite that we may not be deceived in that design and to get rid of I know not what secret Charm which inclines us to explain favourably all that we do even to the being prone to give good motives to ingratitude For in short all People have a great Magazine of excuses for their own faults and imperfections And commonly the wisest too take greatest pains to seek for what may palliate For most part of the World never call themselves to any account they do what is pleasing or what is useful without making any other reflection The Ladies carefully consult their Glass for the making themselves fine They would hide even the least Freckle that is seen in their Complexion An hair out of order offends 'em and puts them out of humour and a thousand secret envies which their hearts are full of which make them speak ill of all other Beauties and render 'em sometimes unjust even to their best friends do not offend 'em in the least The truth is said Timocrates the greatest part of the World make no reflection upon themselves Yet People boldly affirm reply'd Cephisa they will love nothing without knowing what they love They blame those who do it and yet as I have already said they love themselves more than all the rest of the World and tho they do not know themselves they esteem and commend themselves without knowing why and they seek to deceive others and to deceive ' emselves likewise It seems without doubt very strange said the wise Timocrates that the most part of Men and Ladies particularly those who live in the tumult of the World spend all their lives without admiring the Sun Moon or Stars tho there is nothing so fine in all nature Nor do they treat better all the other Wonders of the Universe and look upon all these things as made for their use and pleasure without any other reflection They likewise say when you speak to them thereof that the reason which hinders them from admiring so many marvellous things is that they still see and have daily seen them from the moment they were born But this reason ceases in their own regard For they have seen themselves from the time they were able to see and see ' emselves still every day yet they admire themselves without ceasing 'T is without question for that they do not know themselves said Aratus True admiration answered Timocrates does not proceed from what we do not comprehend Those sort of things cause astonishment and not admiration Nay for to admire with reason it is requisite to know a great part of the good Qualities of the things we admire But there must however still remain somewhat to discover that may be conceived as a thing very extraordinary and this is properly what causes that excessive esteem which turns into admiration I am very glad said the charming Clorelisa I have learnt how I must admire with reason For I perceive I have hitherto been something prodigal of my admiration For my part said Telesila it would please me more if Timocrates would teach me how to know my self for if it is that self-love which blinds and hinders us from knowing our selves well from whence comes it that the kindness we have for our friends makes us sometimes see more clearly their imperfections tho we excuse them Insomuch that loving our selves yet more than we love them we ought to see our selves more clearly if it be true that amity gives an insight as I fancy it does What you say reply'd Timocrates is true in some persons Friendship either opens Peoples eyes or shuts them and generally speaking it extenuates the imperfections of those we love But what makes us know others better than we do our selves is that the familiarity we have with our own inclinations does disguise them to us Nothing is new to us in our own
there were some distinction to be made in case of acknowledgement For otherwise I should be in despair were I obliged not to be ungrateful to three or four men who pretend to love me There is without doubt great distinction to be made in such things repli'd Herminius and indeed except in Love we may never receive a good office without having an heart capable of returning it and without thinking our selves obliged But 't is not so in Love and a good acknowledgement ought never to be either against Justice or against Virtue However it would be contrary to them both if a Lady acknowledged the affection equally of four or five Lovers for in short Love can never be divided But what will become then of the Services of unhappy Lovers replied AEmilius And why shall not that woman be accused of Ingratitude who shall receive 'em without acknowledging them Impossibility replied Herminius gives bounds to all things and 't is easie to understand it A Lady does not love when she pleases and when she loves any one she can make no other acknowledgement for those she does not love and who serve her than that which obliges her to pity 'em to be desirous they were cured of their Passion and to serve them as true Friends if she finds an occasion so to do The Virtues never destroy one another and a person could not be truely grateful if he committed an injustice in being so We are not allowed to prejudice one Friend for the serving another And when I said we ought to acknowledge all the good offices we receive That is to say so as can reasonably be done Thus a Lady may not return Love for Love without being ungrateful and properly speaking 't is onely reciprocal Love that can have that black Ingratitude which I think so horrible and which terrifies me so much the more in that it can never be addressed but to the person in the world by whom we are the most beloved and whom we ought most to love And then to speak of Ingratitude in general it can never be good for any thing Ambition may have good effects Love often spurs people on to great Actions Anger serves sometimes to support Justice Cruelty as hideous as it is may be in some sort useful in the heart of those who for the saving of a mans life are obliged to cut off his Arm And Ingratitude is almost the only thing that is onely good to do mischief Gratitude on the contrary which is a Virtue that does not make so much noise as many others is notwithstanding altogether Heroical in the heart of those who truely know it And for ought I know there may be sometimes as much glory in acknowledging a Benefit with a good grace as there is in rendring ones self a good Office Of the way to Invent A FABLE AMilcar having done reading the Story of Hesiod perceived that all the Ladies Hearts were moved with Compassion and he had afflicted instead of having diverted the Company I must confess said Claelia the death of Clymene very sensibly touches me For my part said Valeria I have more pity for H●…siod than I can express I have the same for Lysicrates added Clidamira I am not of your mind rejoyn'd Berilisa for I have never any Compassion for those who have once ceas'd loving though Love is renew'd in their Hearts My Compassion proceeds much further than yours said Salonnia for I also pity the poor Troilus Mine is still much greater than that you boast of replied Plotina smiling for at the moment I speak I die for fear that poor Dog so faithful to his Master after having caused his Murderers to be discovered was lost in the crowd of People or that he died of grief after the loss of his Master and Mistress All the Company laugh'd at Plotina's pity and went a walking in several Companies except Claelia Valeria Plotina Anacreon Herminius and Amilcar who began to rally Plotina for the pity she bore to Hesiod's Dog No no interrupted Anacreon be not so severe upon her for this reason Perhaps the pity she had for that poor Dog has a more substantial foundation than the pity we have for the death of Clymene For to speak to you sincerely though I am a Greek and moreover a Poet yet I am of opinion that the History you have now read is almost all invented Nevertheless it is pretty ingeniously done added he For I not onely find it more beautiful than Truth but more probable too And indeed the History says nothing else of Hesiod but that he dwelt in the Burrough of Asera in Baotia near Helicon that he was inblown by the Muses that an Oracle uttered upon his account obliged him to remove farther from the Temple of Nemaea which is in Peloponnesus that he travelled into several places obtained the golden Tripus and won the advantage over H●…mer by the judgement of Paris Yet some say that these two great men were not contemporaries But at least all those who have written of Hesiod agree that he was at Locris and content themselves with saying in three words that he lodged at Antiphanes and Ganictors house who had a Sister and that having suspected him of being the Confident of an Amour of hers they killed him with his Slave that the Slave'sBody was found at a Cape to which was since given the name of Trailus by reason of him That that of Hesiod was carried by Dolphins near to a Temple of Neptune where a great Sacrifice was made that Hesiod's Dog made his Murderers known who were torn to pieces by the People and that for fear the Orcomenians shou d have taken away his Body they conceal'd his Sepulchre As for his Works he who hath invented that History has supposed nothing of it but the Song those four Verses he makes Hesiod say and that Hymn which he supposes him to have made for the Sacrifice of Neptune After this will not you grant me that Fiction in this Encounter is more probable than Truth When an Author causes extraordinary events to happen 't is without doubt better to introduce Love therein than any other cause This has been practised by the person who invented this Story For by supposing the love of the Prince of Locris that of Lisicrates and that of Hesiod for Clymene he has made you acqualnted with all those several persons and has obliged you to love them who were to be the most unhappy Then he made that probable which had little likelihood in it For there is much more appearance that two ambitious and wicked Brothers should be led away to kill a man whom they thought an obstacle to their Fortune by hindring their Sister to be favourable to a Prince from whom they expected their advancement than not to kill him as the Confident of a Lover of their Sister Now Crime for Crime 't would be much better to kill the Lover than the Confident There would likewise have been reason
to suppose that Hesiod had made that Hymn upon Neptune For besides that this kind of work has a great deal of his Character this had moreover conciliated to him the assection of the People who had newly heard those Verses sung And methinks such an extraordinary cause as this was requisite for the stirring up the people to that extraordinary action 'T was also convenient to make his Wounds bleed afresh and to make Clymene be so far transported as to accuse her very Brethren without thinking of it For otherwise the people would have been very inconsiderate to tear those two men in pieces only for that Hesiod's Dog fell upon them So I maintain that a man who should have invented what the History says of this Adventure would have made a sorry business on 't and the person who has composed this Fable according to the Rules of Art deserves to be commended for it Truly said Herminius he has made pretty good use of all that History has afforded him And I find my self fully disposed to believe that if it be not so it might have been so there being nothing without doubt which better confirms a Fable well invented than those Historical Foundations which are every where to be seen and cause Fiction to be received when it is inmix'd with Truth But unquestionably it is a more difficult thing than may be imagined to mingle those two things well together For they should be so ingeniously interwoven as they must not be discerned from one another without it be almost always that what has been invented may seem more probable than Truth or Chance is allowed to do incredible things But a Wise man is never allowed to invent things that cannot be believed But if all I have now heard be not a truth Plotina I expect Amilcar should restore me the Tears I have shed or he would invent some other Story as Comical as this is Melancholy or he would at least say what course is to be taken for the inventing a Story well Now for my part added she agreeably if I invented a Story methinks I should make things much more perfect than they are And indeed all the Women should be admirably beautiful the Men should be as valiant as Hector all my Heroes should kill at least a hundred men in each Battle I would build Palaces of Precious Stones cause Prodigies to happen every moment and without amusing my self with having judgement I would suffer my Imagination to take its own swing insomuch as only seeking for surprizing Events without examining whether they were well or ill grounded I should certainly do very extraordinary things as continual Shipwrecks burning of Towns and a thousand other rare things which give occasion to fine Complaints and fine Descriptions Plotina said these words after such an ingenious manner as gave sufficiently to understand that she knew very well what she said was not the right way and she only sought to set Anacreon Herminius and Amilcar a speaking who were undoubtedly able to discourse very well upon that Subject and truly she attained the end she proposed to her self For Anacreon not being yet well enough acquainted with her to know all that ingenious Malice whereof she made profession took up the Discourse And looking upon her laughing If you invented a Story after the manner you speak of incomparable Plotina said he to her you would without doubt make a very peculiar sort of thing For with these same very fine Events marvellous Descriptions Heroick Actions extraordinary circumstances and Palaces of Precious Stones you would make one of the worst Fabl●…s that ever was invented there being undoubtedly nothing worse than to see things of that nature done without Order and without Reason And indeed is there any thing more strange when it lies in the persons power to cause whatsoever Events he pleases to happen yet to make such happen as 't is impossible should ever happen But pray replied Plotina What method is there to be used And why should what I say be improper Because rejoyn'd Anacreon assoon as you have a mind to invent a Fable you have a design to be believed and the true art of Fiction is to resemble Truth well For assoon as we deviate from that foundation there is no more difficulty in whatsoever we undertake and there 's nothing more proper to shew Wit when the Author has any than to have no Judgement I conceive well enough said Claelia what Anacreon says And I agree that those things which have an Affinity with Truth and seem possible to happen touch more than those that can neither be believed nor feared But if people never said any thing but what seems true resum'd Valeria and that may easily be believed I should think only very common things would be said and such as are not over-diverting Ah! Valeria replied Amilcar you touch upon a very nice point For though we are not willing to endure incredible and impossible things yet we do not pretend that onely mean and common things should be used And there is a third course to be taken which is the most agreeable of all and the most rational Wonderful things so very far from being prohibited are very necessary if so be they do not happen too often and they produce c●…rious effects and none but fantastical and impossible Circumstances are absolutely condemned For how can we be perswaded of any thing when we have once met with an incredible Circumstance When one of my Slaves has but once told me a Lye I afterwards doubt of all he says to me Judge then if I can believe a man who shall fall a telling me such extraordinary Adventures that my reason could not suppose they were possible Thus we must almost equally avoid things impossible and things low and common and seek the means to invent such as are both wonderful and natural For without this last quality there is no Wonder that can please a rational person And truly replied Herminius assoon as a man would invent one of those sort of Adventures which may instruct or divert he must consider the World in general as a Painter considers his Model when he works And as Variety is the Soul of the World an Author ought to be very cautious not to make that all the Men be Heroes all the Women equally Beautiful the humours of one another resembling and that Love Anger Jealousie and Hatred always produce each the same effects On the contrary he must imitate that admirable diversity which is seen in all men after Homer's Example with whose Writings I know that two Ladies in this Company are very well acquainted For there is seen so great a distinction of Images in his Works that 't is one of the things which make him the most admired Those two Lovers who at the beginning dispute among ' emselves for a Captive being of a different temperament act likewise after a different manner Thus although they are both in Love they
seizes to run and even to fly But great Fear does as it were strike dead and renders motionless And we may conclude from its contrary effects it is not what people would have it to be I have seen men in the Army said Lisander whom excessive Fear has forced to be valiant but commonly it is the source of Cowardise Fear said Xenophon is in such ill reputation that in all Times and Places where Sacrifices have been made the Priests would never make use of timerous Victimes which have ever been imputed as unworthy of being offered to the Gods I assure you said Eupolia laughing I had not made that Reflection but I perceive if I had been in Polixena's place I should not have been sacrificed Fear said Xenophon does not onely magnifie evils it multiplies 'em and knows likewise how to perswade those it possesses that what is good is evil or may become so All other evils have bounds pursued he Fear has none at all For it often makes us apprehend what is not what will perhaps never happen and even what never can come to pass Yet it is natural to fly from Evils said Eupolia True resumed Melicrita but Fear meets 'em and invents false ones which nevertheless do cause real Griefs That is very well observ'd said Theramenes And we may also adde extream Fear does neither suffer the Memory the Judgement nor Will to prevent the mischief it causes men to apprehend It often happens but not always that Fear proceeds as much from want of Judgement as from want of Heart and what proves this is that the evils which Fear causes men to foresee are more great and numerous than those which can really happen Fear pursued Alcibiades is the most usual Source of the Apparitions which are so much talked of in the World and there is no Passion which makes so sudden a subversion of the Reason In War Cowards take Trees for Cavalry The Dust which is raised by a Flock of Sheep puts sometimes a disorder into an Army when pannick fear seizes on the Souldiers Hearts And as I have already said there is no Passion so powerful as Fear no not Love it self Ah! as for that said Eupolia I comprehend methinks sufficiently why it is more cult to resist Fear than the most tyrannick of all Pissions which is Love For as I try it in my self assoon as Fear seizes on the Hearts of those who are very susceptible of it it disturbs their Reason whereas generally speaking the first moment of Love does but begin to seduce it That is very well observed said Alcibiades And we may adde methinks that assoon as Fear arises in a Soul disposed to receive it it is great and terrible from that very first instant And the Imagination accommodating it self to it and following the weakness of a timerous Heart not onely multiplies the Objects but aggrandizes 'em and makes 'em Monsters which the Reason being subdu'd cannot surmount nay sometimes not so much as struggle with But pray cried Eupolia it is my Heart which begins to fear and not my Mind But from the very first moment that Fear seizes me I know no more what I say nor what I do And sometimes I cannot comprehend why all the World is not as much afraid as my self There is methinks said Theramenes a very remarkable Circumstance against Fear which is that the panick Fears which happen in Armies and amongst people passes for Divine Punishments Yet I assure you interrupted Eupolia smiling I do not think my self so cr●…inal towards the Gods as to be punished with Fear And I would rather own it to be a Weakness than a Punishment from Heaven But still said the Princess would I willingly know if all sorts of Fears are blamable In no wise Madam answered Xenophon But we must know when to be justly afraid Fears that are just and bounded by Reason are praise-worthy the others are weak and childish Who fears nothing is void of Reason For Earth-quakes and a thousand other dreadful things are to be feared But properly speaking blamable Timidity is that which causes us to fear what is not to be apprehended Methinks said Areta with her usual modesty we may remark one thing which is that of all the Passions Fear is the onely one which does not give one sole moment of Joy Anger Hatred Envy Covetousness Revenge how violent and unjust soever they may be give sometimes Pleasure even in their Fury but Fear can never afford any and it even poysons all the Presents that Fortune can make it being certain there are no agreeable Blessings to those who are always afraid of losing ' em But after all said Theramenes there is a Fear which proceeds from a source altogether Noble which is Love and this I maintain to be just and laudable and which is found in the Hearts of good Subjects towards their Kings of good Citizens for their Country of Children to their Parents and in general in that of every one who knows how to love whether in Love or in Friendship That I grant said Xenophon but that kind of Fear very far from disturbing the Reason helps the Judgement and fortifies Virtue And I boldly aver that Fears of that stamp bounded by a right reason ought not properly to be called Fears they are rather wise Reflections The most just of all Fears added he is without doubt that of the Gods and yet that must have its bounds For it must be moderated by the hopes we ought to have in their goodness In a word excessive Fear is always blamable and a Great man of my acquaintance advises the fearing Vices and not fear Dangers or Misfortunes For if they are inevitable we must prepare for 'em and rest contented And if we may avoid 'em we must endeavour to do it without disturbing ourselves by Fear That is very easie resumed Eupolia for such Heroes as you to say but I am perswaded there is a thousand things which Ladies may be allowed to fear For by example pursued she how is it possible for a virtuous Woman and one who loves her Reputation not to be afraid of Detraction I am not of that opinion said Melicrita she ought to look upon it with contempt and onely be afraid of deserving it Melicrita is in the right said Hiparetta but I am perswaded we ought to be allowed to fear being deceived I am too happy interrupted Eupolia that I can oppose some sort of Fear But in this occasion I oppose it and I maintain that to be always afraid of being deceived is the way to be so often There is likewise a kind of Fear which I find blamable added she which is that which makes certain people fear they are laugh'd at Ah! as for that said Hiparetta it is ridiculous But I know others whom I do not think over praise-worthy which are those persons who are always fearful of doing wrong or speaking ill and who through this fear take a wrong