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A26959 More proofs of infants church-membership and consequently their right to baptism, or, A second defence of our infant rights and mercies in three parts ... / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1675 (1675) Wing B1312; ESTC R17239 210,005 430

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big words than to macerate their bodies by imploying their minds in serious long unwearied studies till they have received into their minds the well digested frame of sacred truths § 6. And if this tribe can keep the major vote as it must be a strangely happy country where they do not whoever will be wiser than they shall be a heretick But if it fall out better and they be the weaker part they will make up their honour by the way of singularity among so many as they can get to believe that they are masters of some excellent truths which almost all the Christian world is unacquainted with § 7. And even in men otherwise truly pious there is so much remaining pride as is greatly gratified by singularity Selfishness and the Old man are but One. And an opinion that is peculiarly their own is as lovely to them as their own Children in comparison of others If they can say ego primus inveni it is sweetest If not yet to be one of a singular Society that is supposed wiser and better and more excellent in their way of worship than all others is very comfortable to them that by taking the elect to be fewer than they are do judge it a good mark to hold what few hold and do as few do § 8. And there may be a conjunction of good and evil in the cause of these effects And from hence we now live among many that fall into various kinds of Sects and every one hopeth for the comforts of singularity in their way Many turn Quakers because they are singular in their austerities And many Congregations will not endure the singing of Gods Praise in Psalms at least in Davids Psalms and some will not have the Scriptures read and some are against humane learning and studies and some against Preaching upon a Text and Praying before and after Sermon and some against ordinary Family-worship and many startle if they hear the Creed the Lords-Prayer and Commandments and hence also the Doctrine of denying all Christians Infants Church-membership hath prospered § 9. And too many honest persons in opposition to ungodliness are disaffected to lawful and laudable things in the worship of God meerly because the Vngodly use them When as experience telleth all the world that they that have no Religion in sincerity will usually joyn with the Religion that is uppermost And so if good Rulers and Teachers set up that which is best the best will be outwardly the way of the ungodly and if we must needs be singular from them we must take the worst and leave them the best to their self deceit and our shame § 10. I have thought by this weakness of some singular people that if God should but let us have a King and other Rulers that were Antinomians and against Infant Baptism and against singing Psalms and against the use of the Creed and Lords Prayer and such other things and withal were themselves of wicked lives and would make Laws for their own way and impose it on the people so that the ungodly multitude did fall into this way it would presently cure most that are now for such opinions And though the Godly and the wicked must be greatly differenced in the Church yet before we are aware our secret Pride sets in with this desire of discipline and maketh us much desire to seem eminently Good by a more notable and conspicuous difference from the common sort of Christians than God in Scripture or reason doth allow 2. And how much Ignorance hath to do in all our controversies would soon be acknowledged if the question concerned not our selves For every disputer accuseth his adversary of Ignorance If they be of ten minds inconsistent nine of them must needs be erroneous and therefore Ignorant and yet every one chargeth it on the rest and thinks that he alone is free Alas that mans soul which here must act in such a puddle of brains and in so frail a receptive engine as it here useth should have such high and confident thoughts of its own untryed and undigested conceptions that will not let Ignorance be acknowledged or cured Most certainly we are all so dark and weak that it is but a few Great necessary things or such as are very plain which we have cause to be confident of without all suspicion of mistake Most certainly natural dulness or short and superficial studies through sloth or diversions or want of right teachers or an early reception of wrong methods or opinions leading unto more and many such causes doth and will keep not only most Christians but most Teachers of the Church in so low a measure of Knowledge as unfitteth them to master and manage very difficult controversies And yet sad experience telleth us that he that is least able to speak is oft least able to hold his tongue And it 's too rare to find a man that is not Ignorant of his Ignorance and that chargeth not him with Pride that will presume to contradict him What wonder then if disputes be endless § 12. 3. And that wrath is in the cause needs no proof but experience while we see men come forth with militant dispositions and animosity is their valour and how to make their adversaries seem contemptible or odious is their work § 13. 2. And if I should but open to you the Disputing evil in the effects as I have done in the Causes what a woful tragedy of 1500 years duration should I present you with But I shall put off that part of the work supposing that sight and experience do inform you more effectually than words can do § 14. On all these accounts I still say as Paul The servant of the Lord must not needlesly strive nor meddle with those wranglings which minister Questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith For the end of the Commandment is Love out of a pure heart and a good Conscience and faith unfeigned And the high pretenders are too often proud knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy strife railing evil surmising perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth § 15. II. But yet for all this as Politicians use to tell Tyrants that if God and man did but secure them from all resistance men would flie from them as from Tigers or Crocodiles and suppose their boundless uncontrouled pride and cruelty would be insatiable so I say of Heretitical and truly Schismatical Contenders that If they were once secured that whatever folly heresie or ungodly mischievous conceits they vend and that with the greatest industry and turbulency to deceive the people no man yet must contradict them nor open their folly that it may be known to all and go no further for fear of being taken for a man of disputation controversie and strife this would so embolden them to attempt the seduction of all sorts of people that no place would be safe or quiet §
his own understanding and his ignorant Readers by such silly wranglings animated by partiality let him bear the Consequents and know that I have somewhat else to do with my few remaining hours than to write books on such insufficient invitations and expectations CHAP. VII Of Danvers's many other accusations of me § 1. IT was one of the old Characters of the Hereticks in the Apostles dayes To speak evil of the things that they understood not And that may well be their Character in which they contradict the three great constitutive parts of Christianity and all Religion and true honesty viz. TRUTH HUMILITY and LOVE by Falshood Pride and Malignity called commonly Vncharitablness § 2. The Root of this is when Reigning an unsanctified heart in which these vices remain unmortified covered from the owners knowledge by a form of Godliness and especially a zeal for the wayes of some Party more honoured in the persons eyes for wisdom or piety than others In others there is a great measure of the same vices mixed with true Grace where an evil and a good cause are conjoyned as to some effects They love God and his Truth and they hate all that they think against him they would promote piety in the world and repress what they think against it And being persons whose wits and studies were not such as exactness and largeness of knowledge do require but yet lovers of knowledge truth and Scripture they have more knowledge than prophane sots but little alas little in comparison of that which is necessary to a methodical accurate understanding of the matters which frequently fall under controversie And so knowing but little they know not what they are ignorant of nor what others know beyond them And it being the common vice of mans understanding to be hasty in judgeing before they hear or know one half that is necessary to a true and faithful judgement and so to be confident before they understand these men hereby are led to confidence in many an error And an erring judgement first telleth them that Truth is falshood and falshood truth that Good is evil and evil good that Duty is sin and sin is duty and then a good cause and a bad the Love of Truth and a perverse and partial zeal concur to put them on in the way of error Ignorance and error set them on a wrong cause and a mixt affection or zeal partly good and partly evil spurreth them on And in these the Error and Heresie and consequent sins are no more predominant than the cause and God will have mercy on those that in ignorance with good meanings oppose many truths and do much evil § 3. And the great means of nourishing this sin in Churches is departing from Christs Church order who hath appointed Teaching and Learning to be the setled way of getting knowledge And therefore required all his disciples to come to his Church as little children to School with teachable humble minds to Learn and not with proud wrangling minds to dispute If all our children should spend their time at School in disputing with the Teacher and setting their wits against his as in a conflict what would they thus Learn § 4. Therefore Paul saith that the servant of the Lord must not strive and oft calleth men from perverse disputings and striving about words which subvert the hearers and from such contendings as edifie not but tend to more ungodliness though the faith may be contended for and truth defended when opposition maketh it truly necessary § 5. When a man seeketh after knowledge as a Learner he meeteth it with a willing mind he cometh towards it with an appetite and so is a capable receiver But when a man cometh as a disputant he is ingaged already to one side and if that be false he cometh out to fight against the truth with a spirit of opposition hating truth as error and good as evil and thinks it his duty and interest to destroy and shame it if he can and therefore is unapt to think what may be said for it but studyeth all that he can against it And is this loathing and opposition and fighting against truth the way to know it § 6. Therefore that which hath undone the Churches peace is that too many Teachers being themselves too forward to controversies have too hastily drawn in their people into their quarrels and cast such bones before them in books and pulpits instead of food which break their teeth and set them together by the ears instead of nourishing them And so one mans hearers are taught to dispute for this sort of Government and anothers for that sort one mans for free-will and anothers against it when perhaps neither they nor the master of the quarrel can tell you what it is and so of an hundred more such like The honest hearers when they should be digesting the ancient Christian doctrine and learning to increase in Love to God and man and to practise a holy and a heavenly life and prepare for a comfortable death and happy eternity by a Living faith and hope are taught that if they be not zealots for this opinion or that for Anabaptistry for separation c. if they pray by a book or if they joyn with those that hold such things as they hear called by odious frightful names they are not then right zealous Christians but corrupt or complyers or lukewarm And thus each Church is made a miserable Church-militant and trained up to war against each other § 7. And this Ministers have done partly to strengthen themselves by the consent and number of their adherents as the Captain must conquer by his Souldiers When they can set a great number on hating their adversaries and backbiting them and telling the hearers wherever they come to make them seem odious how erroneous and bad such and such men are they think they have done much of their work And while they think it is for Christ they know not how notably they please and serve the Devil But I must remember that I have spoken of this elsewhere and so dismiss it § 8. That Mr. Danvers and his imitaters speak evil confidently and vehemently of the things they know not yea very many such I am sure But from what principle or root or how far that vice which produceth these fruits is mortified or unmortified as to all others I am neither called nor willing to judge I remember how Mr. Tho. Pierce once dealt with me When my Religious neighbour could hardly be perswaded to communicate with those among them that were of his judgement saying they were men that would swear and lie and lived scandalously I thought it my duty to keep up discipline and yet to moderate their censures by telling them what sins I thought might stand with some measure of sincere piety and Church-communion And what doth he but hence take advantage to tell the world how loose my doctrine was and what sinful persons I thought
or donation which doth not confer the benefit This I aver on occasion of your last Letter where in contradiction to the former you confess the promises to the natural posterity of Abraham Gen. 17. and the Covenants made with Israel at Mount Sinai and Deut. 29. and a precept of Circumcision and precepts of God by Moses of calling the people and requiring them to enter into Covenant Exod. 19. Deut. 29. Yet you do not conceive that the Infants of Israel were made visible Church-members by the promises in the Covenants or the precepts forenamed If so then either you imagine that among all those precepts and promises there was yet no promise or Covenant that gave them the benefit of Church-membership or precept concerning their entrance into that state or else you imagine that such promises were made but did not actually confer the benefit and such precepts were made but did not actually oblige Your words are so ambiguous in this that they signifie nothing of your mind to any that knows it not some other way For when you say there is no such particular promise concerning Infants visible Church-membership or precept c. besides Circumcision as in my Book of Baptism I assert who knows whether that exception of Circumcision be a concession of such a precept or promise in the case of Circumcision or if not what sense it hath and what you imagine that precept or promise to be which I assert and before the sense of your one syllable such is discerned by trying it by a whole volume I doubt you will make what you list of it However if you should mean that such precepts there are as have for their subject the avouching God to be their God the entring into Covenant Circumcision of Infants but not their Church-membership then 1. I have proved the contrary to the negative before 2. And more shall do anon 3. And it 's a palpable contradiction to the precedent affirmative But if you mean that Church-membership of Infants as well as others is the subject or part of the subject of those promises or precepts and yet that Infants were not made or confirmed thereby it is the contrary that I am asserting and I have no further need to prove than by shewing the contradiction of your opinion to it self For an actual Covenant or promise that doth not give right to the benefit promised according to its tenor and terms is like a cause that hath no effect a Father that did never generate and it is all one as to say a gift or Covenant which is no gift or Covenant seeing the name is denied when the thing named and defined is granted So a Precept or Law to enter Infants solemnly into Church-membership which yet obligeth none so to enter them is as gross a contradiction as to say the Sun hath not heat or light and yet is truly a Sun Mr. T. here confesseth 2. That the Jews were Gods visible Church not barely by Gods promise to them to be their God but by their promise to God Gods call of them made them his Church and their promise to God with other acts made them visibly so Reply Reader is not all here unsaid again by this concession Unless he will say that this Call and Covenant and Promise made them all a visible Church and yet none of these but their birth and place made them members As if any thing made the Whole Church which made none of the Parts as such SECT XXVIII R. B. I Come next to the sixth Question Whether indeed there be any transeunt fact which without the causation of any promise or precept did make the Israelites Infants Church-members This you affirm if you would be understood whether this your ground of Infants Church-membership or mine be righter I hope will be no hard matter for another man of common capacity to discern By a transeunt fact thus set as contradistinct to a law precept or promise either you mean the act of legislation and promise making or some other meerly physical act If the former it is too ridiculous to be used in a serious business For you should not put things in competition excluding the one where they both must necessarily concur the one standing in a subordination to the other Was there ever a Law or Covenant made in the world any other way than by a transeunt fact Sure all legislation is by some signification of the Soveraigns will And the making of that sign is a transeunt fact If it be by voice is not that transeunt If by writing is not the act transeunt If by creation it self the act is transeunt though the effect be permanent And certainly if legislation or promising be your transeunt fact you do very absurdly put it in opposition to a law or promise it being the making of such a law And the legislation doth no way oblige the subject but by the law so made nor doth the making of a promise grant or covenant confer right to the benefit which is the subject of it any otherwise than as it is the making of that grant which shall so confer it As the making of a knife doth not cut but the knife made and so of other instruments So that if the law oblige not or the grant confer not certainly the legislation or promise-making cannot do it I cannot therefore imagine that this is your sense without charging you with too great absurdity As if you should say It is not the will of the testator i. e. his testament that entitleth the legatary to the legacy but it is the transeunt fact of the testator in making that will or it is not the Soveraigns commission that authorizeth a Judge souldier c. but it is the transeunt fact of writing or making that commission It is not the sign that signifieth but the transeunt fact of making that sign Were not this a contemptible arguing To charge you with this were to make you tantum non unreasonable And yet I know not what to say to you that is how to understand you For if you mean a meer physical transeunt fact which is no such legislation or promise-making then it is far more absurd than the former For if it be not a sign of Gods will obliging to duty or conferring benefit then can it not so oblige to duty nor confer benefits It is no other transeunt fact but legislation that can oblige a subject to duty nor any other transeunt fact but promise or other donation that can convey right to a benefit or oblige the promiser A moral or civil effect must be produced by a moral or civil action and not by a meer physical action which is unfit to produce such an alien effect and can go no higher than its own kind What sense therefore I should put on your words without making them appear unreasonable even much below the rates of ordinary rational peoples discourse I cannot tell For to say
acts must concur to make them members and so that they were no members till many hundred years after the institution of Circumcision yet could not your Doctrine hold good For some of these acts are of an alien nature and no more apt to cause infant Church-membership than a Bull to generate a Bird. What aptitude hath the setling of an Army to be any part of the causation of Infants Church-membership None I think at least if it be such an Army as ours For surely the setling of ours caused no such thing as you well know What aptitude hath the leading to Padan Aram or removal to Aegypt to make Infants Church-members Nay how strange is it that the removing of Church-members and such as had been Infant Church-members as Ishmael Keturahs children Esau must cause Infant Church-membership Sure it was no cause of their own Keturahs children were Church-members in infancy I enquire of you by what act they were made such You say by Gods fact of taking the whole people of the Jews for his people whereof the act of removing Keturahs children was a part Very good It seems then that removing from the Congregation of Israel a people of the Jews is a taking of the removed to be of that people or else it is not only the taking that people but also the removal from that people that maketh Church-members even the removed as well as the taken both which are alike absurd And I pray you tell me yet a little better how an act can make a man a Church-member that was one long before that was done You cannot here say that it was before in esse morali and had a moral causation How then could your chiefest act the bringing out of Aegypt make those Infants Church-members that were born in Aegypt and were Church-members before Or how could it be any part of the cause Did the bringing out of Aegypt concur to make Moses a Church-member when he was in the basket on the waters And when you answer this you may do well to go a little further and tell me how such an act concurreth to make him an Infant Church-member that was dead an hundred or two hundred years before that act was done For example how did the setling of the Israelites Army or Inheritance or the Covenant on Mount Sinai make Ishmael or Esau or Isaac or Jacob Church-members I desire you also to tell me by the next what be the nerves and ligaments that tie all these acts of 430. years at least together so as to make them one fact And whether I may not as groundedly make a fact sufficient for this purpose of the acts of an hundred or two hundred years only And whether you may not as well make all the acts from Abrahams call till Christ to be one fact and assign it to this office You say that you call this fact transeunt because it's past and so till it 's past it seems Isaac and Jacob that were dead before are no Chruch-members I would then fain know whether it be this same transeunt fact or some other that makes Infants Church-members five hundred years after it is past If it be this same then how comes a meer transeunt fact to work effectually so many hundred years after it is past unless it made a Law or Covenant which doth the deed If it be a new transeunt fact that must make Infants Church-members after the compleating of this the setling their inheritances then I pray you let me know whether it ●e one fact exercised on the whole nation in gross or must it be a fact upon every Infant member individually If on the nation remember to tell us what it was and do not only tell us the cause of the membership of former Infants And seeing it must be such as the membership of every Infant till Christs time at least must be caused by I pray you remember to make your work square and full and be sure to assign us no other kind of fact than what you will prove to have been so frequently repeated in every age and so fully extensive to every Infant among the Jews as that it have no gaps but may make all members that were so in each age And remember that it is no law precept promise or covenant that you must assign for the cause for that is it you are engaged against but a constant succession of transeunt facts extending to each individual member O what work have you made your self and what a sort of new political Doctrine shall we have from you when these things are accomplished according to the frame you have begun Such as I believe the Sun never saw nor the wisest Lawyer in England ever read before Which makes me the less marvel that so many of your opinion are so much against the Lawyers for I dare say they will be but few of them for you if these be your grounds or at least not for these your grounds Reply To all this I find nothing said by Mr. T. that I think worthy the Readers trouble to reply to Let him read it and see His charge of foolish exclamations vanity c. I pass by SECT XXXIX to XLIV R. B. BVt all this yet is but a light velitation The principal thing that I would enquire into is what your great comprehensive fact is in the true nature of it which you call Gods taking the whole people of the Jews to be his people Doth the word taking signifie a meer physical taking or fact or a moral such as among men we call a civil action If it be a meer physical taking then 1. It cannot produce a moral effect such as that in question is 2. And then it must have an answerable object which must be individual existent persons 3. And then you cannot call it one fact but many thousand even as many as there were persons taken in to the Jews in above four hundred years 4. And then what was the physical act which is called Gods taking was it such a taking as the Angel used to Lot that carried him out of Sodom or as the Apocryphal Author mentions of Habakkuk that was taken by the hair of the head and carried by the Angel into another Country to bring Daniel a mess of Pottage If God must by a physical apprehension take hold of them that he makes Church-members we shall be at a loss for our proof of their Church-membership But I cannot imagine that this is your sense But what is it then Is it a physical action though a moral causation of some physical effect That it cannot be For it is a political or moral effect that we enquire after It necessarily remains therefore that this be a political moral taking that you here speak of And if so then the transeunt fact you speak of must needs be a civil or political action And what that can be which is no Law Promise or Covenant in this case I pray
he never gave right to it by promise 2. And will not the ungodly put in for the like hopes If besides those that Gods Laws condemn or justifie God will save many in a neutral state why may he not saith the ungodly save me also for Infants once deserved punishment by original sin And if God pardon them without any reason in themselves he may do so by me 3. Or at least he may save all the Infants in the world for ought you know that die in Infancy And do all the promises to the seed of the faithful in the second Commandment and Exod. 34.7 and many another Text mean no such thing as they speak as if to be the seed of the faithful were no condition but only I will save my elect And why might not this Covenant I will save my Elect be made with Cain or Cham or Judas as well as with Abraham 2. He saith Abrahams Infants were visible Church-members but not by the Covenant barely as Evangelical Reply What a bare put off is that of a man that must say something Is it at all by the Covenant as Evangelical If yea we have our desire If not what meaneth barely but the nakedness of your ill cause 3. Then cometh next And if in any respect by virtue of the Covenant which it seemeth he yet knoweth not after all this talk or will not know it was by it as containing houshold or civil promises rather than Evangelical Reply See Reader some more of the mysterie Infants were Church-members in Abrahams house but Church-membership signified but houshold and civil promises Do you now perceive what the Jews Infant Church-membership was The Socinians perhaps will say the like of the Jews Covenant to the adult But we may yet mistake him For rather is not a negative It is Rather than Evangelical which is but a preference not a denial O for plain honesty in things divine SECT L. R. B. 2. THat the first fundamental promise is thus to be interpreted I further prove by Gods constant administration in the performance of it Concerning which I do make this challenge to you with modesty and submission to prove if you can that there was ever one Church-member that had Infants born to him while he was in that estate from the beginning of the world to this day whose Infants also were not Church-members Except only the Anabaptists who refuse or deny the mercy and so refuse to dedicate their Infants in Baptism unto Christ And whether their Infants be Church-members I will not determine affirmatively or negatively at this time I do again urge you to it that you may not forget it to prove to me that ever there was one Infant of a Church-member in the world since the creation to this day that was not a Church-member except the Anabaptists that refuse the mercy or deny it Reply Mr. T. 's Answer is a refusing to answer save a cross challenge oft answered and the instance of Timothy To which I say that if Timothy 's Father being a Greek countermanded his communion with the Jews he could not be a member of their policie or particular Church Though if he only delayed as Moses did to circumcise his Son that Son might be a member as the children in the wilderness were But his Mothers right alone might make him a person in Covenant with God as a visible member of the Church-universal SECT LI. R. B. BEfore I proceed to any more Texts of Scripture I will a little enquire into the light or Law of Nature it self and see what that saith to the point in hand And first we shall consider of the duty of dedicating Infants to God in Christ and next of Gods acceptance of them and entertaining them into that estate And the first is most evidently contained in the Law of nature it self at least upon supposition that there be any hopes of Gods entertaining them which I prove thus 1. The law of Nature bindeth us to give to every one his own due But Infants are Gods own due Ergo the law of Nature bindeth Parents to give them up to God By giving here I mean not an alienation of propriety to make that to be Gods that was not so before but an acknowledgement of his right with a free resignation and dedication of the Infant to God as his own for his use and service when he is capable thereof If you say Infants being not capable of doing service should not be devoted to it till they can do it I answer they are capable at present of a legal obligation to future duty and also of the relation which followeth that obligation together with the honour of a Church-member as the child of a Noble man is of his Honours and title to his Inheritance and many other mercies of the Covenant And though Christ according to his humanity was not capable of doing the works of a Mediator or head of the Church in his Infancy yet for all that he must be head of the Church then and not according to this arguing stay till he were capable of doing those works And so is it with his members Reply Here is so little said that needs but this remarke that Mr. T. knoweth not how to deny the duty of dedication handsomly which being Accepted of God is to Church-membership as private Marriage to publick where publication is wanting But he denieth that Parents may dedicate them by Baptism But if they may and must do it privately by heart consent it will follow that they must do it publickly in the instituted way As for my bold attempt in proving so much by the Law of Nature if he cannot confute it let him not strive and sin against nature SECT LII R. B. 2. THe law of nature bindeth all Parents to do their best to secure Gods right and their Childrens good and to prevent their sin and misery But to engage them betimes to God by such a dedication doth tend to secure Gods right and their Childrens good and to prevent their sin and misery For they are under a double obligation which they may be minded of betimes and which may hold them the more strongly to their duty and disadvantage the tempter that would draw them off from God Mr. T. Really Infant Baptism is a disadvantage 1. In that it is the occasion whereby they take themselves to be Christians afore they know what Christianity is and so are kept in presumption c. 2. They are kept from the true baptism c. Reply This nearly concerneth our cause I once inclined to these thoughts my self But I am satisfied 1. That Infant Covenanting and Baptism is no hindrance in Nature or Reason from personal serious Covenanting with God at age We tell our Children and all the adult that their Infant Covenanting by Parents will serve them but till they have Reason and Will of their own to choose for themselves And that without as serious a faith and consent of
this But c. Not to be a Believer a disciple a Minister a Son of God There is the like reason for them as for this Answ Priviledges are 1. Proper to the adult those concern not our case as to be Ministers or common to them with Infants 2. Priviledges consist either in Physical qualities or other Physical accidents and these are given by physical Action and such is Knowledge Belief Love Gifts of utterance health c. Or in Right and Moral Relation Jus Debitum obligatio These are given by Moral means that is by signification of the Donors will by precept obliging promise or signal Donation which is the Instrument of conveyance by that signification As a Testament Deed of Gift Act of pardon and oblivion c. are among men Now do you think that the reason of Physical Qualities and Moral Rights Relations and duties is the same 2. As a Disciple or believer signifieth one that is Reputatively such jure Relationis and as a Son of God signifieth an Adopted heir of heaven loved of God as a reconciled Father in Christ so Infants are such You say after that Christ was habitually and by designation the Head and Prophet of the Church in Infancy and so mihgt Infants be disciples And will you now deny it Again I will say though it offend you that there is no trusting to that mans judgement that looketh all or partially on one side and studieth so eagarly what will serve his cause as that he cannot mind what may be said against it See here what two abhominations you thrust on your pittiful followers which yet I know you hold not your self but the heat of your spirit in desire of victory draweth you to say you mind not what You conclude that none is A Son of God without his own consent And so 1. All Infants are certainly shut out of Heaven for they are no Sons of God without their consent neither by Election Christs intercession Covenant or Gift And I think you will not say that they consent And if no sons no heirs For the Inheritance is only of children And if no sons then are they not Regenerate which is but to be made sons of God by a new Generation and renewed to his Image And do you damn all Infants 2. And consider whether you deny not Christ in Infancy to have been the Son of God according to his humane nature For you can never prove that in that nature he actually consented in the womb or in his Infancy But partiality is rash and blind Mr. T. 12. If there be no Law or ordinance of God unrepealed by which either this Infant visible Church-membership is granted or the listing of Infants or entring into the visible Church Christian is made a duty then it is not a cause of Infants visible Church-membership which Mr. B. assigns c. Answ I have here proved to you such a Law and Covenant before Christs Incarnation and formerly at large proved it to be continued and renewed by special signification of Christs will since his Incarnation in the Gospel Review now your pittiful Reasons against it The Second Part A CONFUTATION OF THE Strange FORGERIES OF Mr. H. DANVERS Against the ANTIQUITY OF INFANT BAPTISM And of his many Calumnies against my Self and my Writings with a Catalogue of 56 New Commandments and Doctrines which he and the Sectaries who joyn with him in those Calumnies seem to own By Richard Baxter LONDON Printed for Nevil Simmons and Jonathan Robinson 1675. The PREFACE SECT I. 1. Of Controversies 2. Of the Weight of this Controversie § 1. IT is a thing that all are not duely informed of How far Controversial Writings and Disputes are to be practised by pious and peaceable men And here as in almost all things else men are hardly cured of one extream but by another I. No doubt but the extream which hath far most injured the Church of Christ hath been the excess of Disputing and given just occasion to Sr. W.'s motto The Itch of Disputing makes the Scab of the Church which is easily discernable both in the Cause and the Effects § 2. 1. In the cause it is too notorious that ordinarily it proceedeth from the depravation of the three faculties of the soul Potestative Intellective Volitive in the three great Principles of iniquity Pride Ignorance and wrath § 3. 1. Did not Pride cause men much to overvalue their own parts and worth Controversie would have shrunk into a narrower compass before this day Men would have come to one another as friends to be informed of what they know not by enquiry and gentle conferences if not as children to School to learn And if grace by hard studies had given one man more insight into any matters than another humility would readily have acknowledged Gods gifts and desired to have the benefit of a friendly communication and whereever God had set up a light the Children of his family would have been ready to work by it It would not have been so hard as now it is for an Ignorant man to know his Ignorance nor to discern when another knoweth more than he § 4. But now alas a multitude that understand not half their Catechism hear their Teachers as Masters hear their Scholars to know whether they say their lesson well or not And the Preacher that saith as they would have him may pass for orthodox at least if not for a very wise man because he is so far as wise as they But if he will presume to teach them more than they know they suspect him of heresie and the repetition of his Sermon which they make is to mangle some sentences which they had not wit enough to understand and thence to proclaim or whisper abroad at least that the Preacher hath some dangerous errors and doth not know so much as they unless it be some luscious unwholesom notions that he offereth them or be a militant wrangler and would list them under him as his troop to serve him in some new raised war and then corrupt nature can magnifie novelties as if they were new revelations from Heaven § 5. And O that the Teachers wanted not the sense of their intellectual imperfections as well as the people But too many think that when they are all ordained into the same office the honour of the same office is equally due to them all and consequently all that honour of Knowledge Parts and Piety without which the honour of the office cannot be well kept up And so when they all walk in the same robes and are called by the same titles matters which they never understood must pass according to the major vote or at least they must not be contradicted nor their ignorance made known And therefore when they have owned or uttered a Doctrine or Sentence their honour is engaged to make it good And they find a far easier way to make ostentation of the Knowledge which they have not by robes titles and
16. It is a foolish pretence of peaceableness and quietness to stand by in silence for fear of our own or others trouble and see well-meaning people seduced Christ and his truth and name abused and God dishonoured and his Churches shaken and made a scorn and scandal to the world and all for fear of being accounted contentious If it be lukewarm as they say themselves to hear dayly swearers cursers scorners and such other prophane sinners and not give them a close reproof or admonition so much more is it to see or hear hurtful falshoods published as the precious truths of God and not to contradict it nor endeavour to save mens souls from the infection If Satans work must be done without resistance as oft as a mistaken well-meaning man will do it there will be little safety for the flocks § 17. When Paul fore-told the Ephesians of two sorts that would assault them viz. Grievous devouring wolves and men arising among themselves that would speak perverse things to draw away disciples after them his conclusion is Therefore watch And what that watching is he tells Timothy The mouths of such deceivers must be stopped not by force for that Timothy had no power to do but by evident truth And Truth hath a power in its evidence if it be but rightly opened and managed And were it not that God in all ages had enabled some of his servants faithfully and clearly to vindicate truth and defend sound doctrine and hold fast the form of wholesome words and stop the mouth of ignorant pride that wrangleth against them what had become of us long agoe And though ill disputes have done much mischief and too often disputing succedeth more according to the Parts interests or advantages of the Disputers than according to the evidence of truth Yet for all such abuses Truth must be defended and it findeth something even in nature as bad as man is to befriend it few love a plain falshood unless where interest greatly bribeth them And upon tryal Truth will at last prevail where sin doth not provoke God in judgement to leave men to the delusions which they chuse § 18. If then the way be to Teach and Learn and quietly open the evidence of truth and in meekness to instruct those that oppose themselves and to avoid contentions as we avoid wars till other mens ass●ults do make them unavoidably necessary and yet not to be cowardly betrayers of the Truth and Church of God nor suffer Satan to deceive men unresisted but earnestly to contend for the faith once delivered to the Saints It must be considered I. To whom this earnest contending may be used II. And by whom § 19. I. We must not be over sharp or earnest 1. With those that are yet strangers to Religion of whose conversion there is hope and who are liker to be won by a gentler way which more demonstrateth love and tenderness 2 Tim. 2.25 26. § 20. 2. Nor with Godly Christians who fall into such sins of infirmity as we are lyable to and whose tenderness maketh compassionate tender dealing fittest to their recovery Gal. 6.1 2 3. § 21. 3. Nor with humbled dejected Christians who are apter than we to aggravate their own faults and have need of comfort to restrain their sorrows and keep them from despair 2 Cor. 2.7 § 22. 4. Nor with sinners that under conversion and repentance are humbling themselves by confession to God and man Luk. 15. Philem. 10 16 17. § 23. 5. Nor with Christians that differ from us in tolerable matters and manage their differences but with tolerable infirmities not hazarding the safety of the Church or mens souls § 24. But in these cases we must use plainness sharpness and earnestness 1. When in secret where mens honour with others is not concerned it is necessary to mens convict●on and repentance 1. Because of the Greatness of the sin or error which will not be known if it be not truly opened and aggravated 2. Or by reason of the hard-heartedness or obstinacy of the sinner that will not be convinced or humbled by easier means § 25. 2. And when we are called so to admonish a publick sinner for his crimes or heresies which must be opened as they are before he will be convinced and humbled openly before the Church § 26. 3. And when the people or Church is in danger of being infected by the sin or error if the evil of it be not fully and plainly opened and the sinner rebuked before all that others may beware § 27. 4. When the offender or heretick sheweth us by his obstinacy that we have no cause to expect his cure and conviction but are only to defend Gods truth and mens souls against him then he must be used as Christ did the Pharisees and as Rulers execute malefactors not for their own good but for the warning of others and preservation of the innocent § 28. 5. And when our gentle speeches tend to scandalize those without and make them think that we prevaricate and favour Christians in their sins § 29. All these cases you may see proved 1. In Nathans dealing with David and Christs with Peter Matth. 16. and Pauls Gal. 2. c. 2. In Pauls dealing with the incestuous man 1 Cor. 5. and Peters with Ananias and his wife 1 Tim. 5.20 Them that sin rebuke before all c. 2 Tim. 4.2 Tit. 1.13 Rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith cuttingly Tit. 2.15 Rebuke with all authority especially when we deal with Inferiors who must be humbled Tit. 3.10 11. Mat. 23. throughout And Eli's gentleness or remisness is our warning § 30. II. And as to the persons who must use this sharpness and earnestness against errors and sinners in contending for the faith 1. It is not those who overvalue their own conceptions and grow fond of all that is peculiarly their own and insolently take all men to be enemies to truth and faith and godliness who are adversaries to their odd opinions 2. Nor must inferiors rise up with insolency against superiors or the young against their elders and the ignorant against the wife on pretence of a zealous standing for the truth Though they may humbly and modestly defend that which is truth indeed 3. Nor should unstudyed Christians presently think hardly of any party and backbite them and inveigh against them because their Leaders call them hereticks or reproach them as erroneous dangerous men as almost all parties do against each other 4. Nor should those Ministers who have not a through insight into a Controversie meddle much with it nor be too forward to reprove and reproach where they do not understand nor to undertake disputes which they cannot manage 5. But as God doth indow men with various gifts if each man were imployed according to his talent all would have their honour and comfort and the Church the benefit of them all § 31. We have notoriously all these sorts of Ministers in the
When I heard Anabaptistry obtruded on the religious people as a great and needful part of their integrity 2. And when they that abhorred to hear of old scandals were busily making more and greater 3. When I saw what was done against the Parliament by them that professed to be their servants and that the Anabaptists and their Associates were the forwardest in the work 4. And what was done against the King when they had thrust out the Parliament 5. And what was done in the wars against Scotland 6. And what orders past for sequestring all such as my self that were not for their Engagement or Keeping their days of fasting and thanksgiving in causes of blood 7. And when I saw these executed on many excellent men that were Masters of Colledges in the Universities and useful Ministers in the Country 8. And when I saw what that called the Little Parliament was and did and how it was put to the Vote whether all the Parish Ministers of England should be put out at once and carried against them but by a few And that the Anabaptists were of the forwardest in all this work 9. And after when I saw how many of them turned Ranters and read my self some of their Letters full of horrid Oathes and Blasphemies All these things made me think that they were not friends to the Churches welfare and this was not the way of holiness or peace § 3. All this while I desired to have lived by them in peace and quietness but I could not obtain it Mr. Tombes thought that I stood in the way of his successes even when I medled not with them And therefore I must be either converted to them or conquered that the triumph might promote their ends And when that quarrel was over I was glad and purposed to meddle with them no more § 4. One of the greatest things that offended me was that even in the Parishes where there were the ablest faithful laborious Ministers they laboured to gather separated Churches upon the account of their opinion And when they had gathered them they were militant Churches Presently that Town was in a war and the meetings employed for the extolling of their opinions and vilifying the Ministers and Churches that were against them and making them odious or contemptible to their followers which could not be the work of God § 5. I dare challenge any man to make it good that ever I fought to persecute any Anabaptists or stirred up others to persecute them for their judgements I know not that ever I did any of them any harm except by not being of their minds or contradicting them But though my sufferings by them were nothing that honour being assumed by another party yet they have not carried it so to me But have convinced me that were they uppermost they would then have had too little tenderness for those that hindred their successes Even some of Mr. Tombes his flock my neighbours and familiar friends I think sought my life or ruine when I meddled not with them When Sir George Booth had done what was done in Cheshire I wrote a Letter to Major Beak at Coventry and the Messenger telling them at Bewdley that he had a Letter from me some of them made themselves Souldiers and in arms way-laid the messenger assaulted him and took his Letters and though they found not what I suppose they expected yet finding in it but a great mans name who then much ruled publick affairs they sent it up to the Council to him who summoned Major Beak to London to answer it who had never seen it and knew nothing of it And though he so scaped I was loudly threatned but General Monks approach out of Scotland stayed the execution of their displeasure Thus did my familiar Friends unprovoked some of them yet alive § 6. Indeed my judgement was and is that the point of Infant Baptism hath its considerable difficulties which may occasion wise and good men to doubt or to be mistaken in it And many of the Roman party have taken it to be proveable only by the tradition and judgement of the Church And Mr. Tombes hath publickly intimated as if one of our most Learned and Entire publick Professors of Theologie in one of our Universities had declared himself of the same mind viz. that it is not to be proved by Scripture Mr. Danvers hath also made advantage of this testimony Though of late Scripture certain proof is found in the new Rubrick of the Liturgie for a great deal more I am not of that mind that it is not proveable by Scripture I think I have proved it but not by evidence so clear as every good man can perceive § 7. Therefore I never took the point of it to have such weight as that all that differed from me in it must be denied either Love Liberty or Communion If I know my own heart I do as heartily love a sober godly man that is against Infant baptism as I do such men that differ from me in other such Controversies and much better than one of my own judgement who hath less piety and sobriety And I make no doubt but there are among us very many such even sober and religious men as there be among other parties § 8. Nor do I think that there is so much malignity in the bare opinion which denieth Infant Baptism as that all the Anabaptists miscarriages should arise from the nature of that opinion But I am past doubt that they arise from the diseased minds of many that hold it When injudicious persons lay hold upon an opinion which is not common their singularity kindleth a proud selfish zeal and they take that opinion as more peculiarly their own than the common Articles which all Christians hold And therefore they grow fond of it and are puft up thereby with a conceit of their extraordinary knowledge And then they seem to themselves more religious than others and greater friends to the truth And so Pride and Ignorance engage them in singularity and separation And thus they would do were it any other opinion which they thought as highly of as this So that it is not an Anabaptist as such but the proud Church-divider or Separatist that I am most offended at § 9. I know that in the Ancient Churches men were left at liberty both when they would be baptized themselves and when their Children should be baptized And though Infant-baptism was without any known original since the Apostles yet it was not a forced thing § 10. And were it in my power it should be so still I would not deny Christian Love nor Church-Communion nor publick encouragements to any pious peaceable man for being an Anabaptist If he would not separate for it from the Churches if he would live peaceably with me I would live peaceably with him and should be loth to be behind with him in love and peace § 11. It is not I say Anabaptistry Independency nor any such opinion which
know which of them was the more pernicious § 4. And it must grieve every conscionable and discerning lover of Truth and Peace to observe how these two Church-disturbing parties do by their extremities of opposition increase as well as exasperate each other As the Ithacian Prelates did by the Priscillianists and the Priscillianists by them The Pride covetousness dead formality and cruel violence of Clergie Tyrants maketh the poor Sectaries think that they must go so far from them till they have lost themselves and know not where they are and as Mr. Danvers musters up a catalogue of my sayings in his mode and dress which seem ugly to the poor man that thinks he seeth Antichristianity in such Gospel and natural truths which he understandeth not Like that melancholy person who thinks she seeth Spiders upon every one that comes near her and they must brush them off before she can converse with them though she be caetera sana so those on the other extream think them so fanatick and almost mad that they are apt to suspect every word almost that they say of madness and sometimes thereby injure the truths of the Gospel and soberer people that partake not of their guilt and so say of such as agree with them but in aliquo tertio They are all alike § 5. This was the main cause which made St Martin separate from his neighbour Bishops and deny communion with them to the death Because their persecution of the Priscillianists had so animated the looser sort against strict Religious people that they had brought men under the suspicion of Priscillianism if they did but fast and pray and read and talk of the Scripture It 's easie to see of late who they are that have done the like § 6. When this sort of men see the weakness of the Sectaries and the bold-faced falshood which such as Mr. Danvers obtrude on the world and hear them furiously revile what they understand not it maketh them think that they are fitter for Bedlam than for humane societie And their consciences justifie them for all the cruelties that they use against either them or more innocent persons whom in their ignorance and uncharitableness they number with them § 7. And on the like account when they read and hear their erroneous Doctrines and hear their incongruous words in prayer they think they can never be too strict in shackling them and all others in prescribed forms And nothing quieteth their Consciences in all this so much as the undeniable errors and follies and miscarriages of those that thus provoke them § 8. But in this the Church in Augustines days did not think that way the wisest cure when he saith Afferat ut fieri solet aliquam precem in qua loquatur contra regulam fidei multi quippe irruunt in preces non solum ab imperitis loquacibus sed etiam ab haereticis compositas per ignorantiae simplicitatem non eas valentes discernere utuntur iis arbitrantes quod bonae sint Nec tamen quod in eis perversum est evacuat illa quae ibi recta sunt sed ab eis potius evacuatur Aug. de bapt cont Donat. as I remember about lib. 5. c. 11. O truly charitable and peaceable Doctrine And he that will separate from other for every difference or real error in Doctrine or Prayers shall have enow to separate from him § 9. I know nothing that so much multiplieth Sectaries as the notorious miscarriages of Church-Tyrants that oppose them And I know nothing next carnal interest it self that so much multiplieth and confirmeth Papists and Church-Tyrants as the madness of the Sectaries· The wildeness but especially the diversity of their opinions hath done more to increase the number of Papists among us than any thing that ever the Papists themselves could otherwise say for their cause For people see so many giddy with turning round and see so many Sects among us that they are confounded and know not which to be of but they must lay hold of somewhat that is more stable or be wheel-sick § 10. O what a confirmation is it to a Papist to find such a one as Mr. Danvers calling Gods Truths and Ordinances Antichristian Yea our very Baptismal Covenant and dedication to Christ is Antichristian and the chief Fathers and Martyrs of the Church are Antichristian no wonder if I be so And I doubt almost all the Church of Christ for 900 years at least in this mans reckoning And what will the Papists desire more With what scorn will they deride such men Wo be to him by whom offence cometh The chief Quakers are charged by Mr. Faldo and others even some of their own name of denying the person and office of Christ himself It is worth the enquiring whether they reject him not as Antichrist and call not Christianity by the name of Antichristianity CHAP. IV. Of Mr. Danvers's his Witnesses against Infant-Baptism § 1. WHen he hath told you that In his small search shamefully small he cannot find there is any authentick testimony that it was practised on any till the fourth Century he in the next words saith that it is granted that Tertullian spake against it in Africa which is clear evidence that some had been speaking for it in that corner of the world This is no contradiction with him And did they only speak for it and not practise it Speak once like a man And was not that till the fourth Century § 2. His Catalogue containeth three Columns The first of the Baptism of the Adult And what Christian ever denied this And what meaneth the man in labouring to prove it The second is of the Instituting and asserting of Infant-Baptism of which more anon The third is of his Witnesses against Infant-Baptism And the first of these mentioned in the Catalogue is Tertullian in the third Century By which he seemeth to confess that till the third Century he hath no witness against it But I have said so much elsewhere and others more to prove 1. That Tertullians words prove that Infant-Baptism de facto was then in use 2. That he only telleth his opinion of the point of convenience but concludeth not against Infant-Baptism as unlawful 3. That it is most probable he speaketh of the Infants of Heathens 4. That he speaketh from that strict singularity which made him plead also for the Montanists Fanaticism and against second marriages and for his inordinate fastings c. as a man differing from the Churches and numbered with the Hereticks though I think him a learned Godly man And I refer it to the Readers judgement whether in my book of Infant-Baptism I have not proved by many other words in Tertullian that he was not against all Infant-Baptism but for it among Christians § 3. His next and great Witness is the Donatists together This is something were it true but it is such a kind of falshood as I must not name in its due epithets lest you think
adversaries and yet hold such an opinion and never be suspected Do the Anabaptists no better own their cause But the words he alledgeth are but such as he citeth of my own If truly cited no doubt spoken only of the adult and of what the Infants do by them But who can answer words not cited Must we read all his works again to see if there be such a word as oft as such a man will talk to us at this rate § 45. The next is Albanus a zealous godly Minister in the sixth Century was put to death for baptizing Believers though baptized in Infancy or by Hereticks Answ Still all alike 1. Baronius is cited an 413. n. 6. when in my Book there is not a syllable of any such matter 2. But thereabout he hath the History of the Donatists who rebaptized all both old and young as if our Separatists now should tell all England You are all out of the true Church which is only with us and if you come not to us and be not baptized in our Churches you have no true baptism nor can be saved And for such rebaptizing many were troubled And is this a witness against Infant-baptism Shall we not have one true word § 46. His tale of Swermers he refers us for to Merning and Rulicius or Lulicius and Glanaus men that I know not so well as himself and I had rather he had referred me to himself or Mr. Tombes § 47. He addeth p. 231. Nicephorus l. 17. c. 9. saith that In the year 550. one Peter Bishop of Apamen and Zoroarus a Monk in Syria did maintain and defend the point of dipping rebaptization or weder-dipping Answ Did Nicephorus write in Dutch 1. Is dipping any thing to the case of Infants 2. Are you really for Rebaptizing and are you justifying it If not why cite you instances of Rebaptizers Too many besides the Donatists rebaptized others to engage them to their Sect as the only Church 3. Do you know the History of the Council of Calcedon and Dioscorus and the Nestorians Reader believe not this man any further than sense or great evidence constraineth thee That which Nicephorus there saith is this Severus of Antioch and Peter of Apamea and Zooras a Monk were found to curse the Council of Calcedon and to hold but one nature in Christ praeterea anabaptismos aliaque nefandae obscoenitatis plena facinora peragere that is and also to have practised Rebaptizings and other villanies full of such obscenity that is not to be named If he rejoyce in these Witnesses is here a word of Infant-baptism When shall I come to a sentence that is true § 48. The next is Adrian Bishop of Corinth in the seventh Century did publickly oppose Infant-Baptism insomuch as he would neither Baptize them himself nor suffer them to be Baptized by others but wholly denyed Baptism to them Wherefore he was accused by Gregory Mag. Bishop of Rome to John Bishop of Larissa as appears by Gregories Letter to the said John in which among others he complains against the said Adrian that he turned away children from Baptism and let them die without it for which they proceeded against him as a great transgressor and blasphemer Answ Not one true Sentence in all this 1. It 's false that Adrian publickly opposed Infant-Baptism 2. It 's false that he was accused for it by Gregory or that Gregory laid any such thing to his charge 3. Or that they so proceeded if my books be true Reader the case in Gregories Epistles here cited is this Adrian was accused malevolently of many things not by Gregory but to Gregory Among others that through him some Infants had dyed without Baptism Gregory writeth to John Bishop of Larissa on his behalf and saith that no one of the witnesses could say that he knew any such thing by him but that they were told so by the mothers of some children whose Husbands had for their faults been removed from the Church sed nec in baptizatos eos mortis tempus professi sunt occupasse sicut accusatorum continebat invidiosa suggestio cum in Demetriade Civitate baptizatos eos esse constiterit that is Nor did the witnesses say that they died unbaptized as the envious suggestion of the accusers contained for it is manifest that they were baptized in the City Demetrias 1. Is here a word that he was against Infant-baptism 2. Could a Bishop of so great a City and Diocess have been against Infant-baptism and none to be able to prove it even in envious accusations Would not every week detect it 3. Would Great Gregory have thus justified him if he h●d but suspected such a thing above a hundred years after Austin said no one Christian thought Infant-baptism vain Was this great Pope an Anabaptist 4. Is it not plain by all this th●● it was but the particul●● children of some excommunicate mens wives who maliciously accuse him not for being against Infant-baptism no nor against their Infants baptism but for delaying it It is like to difference them from the children of Church-members And yet that they were afterward baptized See here what a witness he hath brought § 49. The next in his Catalogue is Aegyptian Divines but after in his book before it he tells you of one Berinius an eminent learned man that professed instruction to be necessary before baptism and that without it baptism ought not to be administred to high or low and citeh Beda l. 4. c. 16. Reader the passage in Beda is but this That Ceadwall having conquered the Isle of Wight gave it to Bishop Wilfrid no friend to Anabaptists who gave it his Sisters Son Bernwin appointing him a Priest called Hildila who by his labour among the Heathens converted and baptized two of the Kings Sons who were baptized and had a strange deliverance And is there a syllable in this story that Infant-baptism is concerned in No nor a word of one Berinus an eminent learned man that professed as he saith though it be nothing to the purpose Nor was the business done as he saith in Lower Saxony but in the Isle of Wight so little is there that hath the least kin to truth in this lamentable Reporter § 50. His Testimony of Aegyptian Divines he citeth two late Papists for instead of just proof who neither of them ever dreamed that those Aegyptians were against Infant-Baptism That the adult should be Catechised and instructed before Baptism all the Christian world agreed That there were some Monasteries of the Aegyptian Monks that would not hold communion with the Church of Rome is known and what a turn was made among many of the Clergy after the Council of Chalcedon on Dioscor●s his account whereupon a great body of the Southern Churches cut off from Rome and disowning them are called Nestorians many injuriously to this day And Fulgentius was disswaded from going to the strict Heremites and Monasticks near Aegypt because they were separated from the Roman Communion as you