Baptisme pardoneth it by way of obsignation and solemne conveyance But what is all this to your error that Original sin is not onely remitted but quite extinct or done away out of our natures by Baptisme so that the new baptized Infant is perfectly without any Radical sin as well as without the Guilt of it 4. He saith They say that works do justifie with faith You not Repl. They say that we are not justified by the Merit of Works but by the alone Merit of Christ and so do we We deny not in every sence that we are Justified by Works and not by faith onely for in James his sence we maintain it else we should deny the Scripture The question is not therefore absolutely whether we are Justified by Works but In what sence we are and in what not We say that Christ is the onely Satisfier of Gods Justice and Meriter of Righteousness and that Faith is the onely Receiving Condition and that the Works of the Law that Paul excludeth have no hand in it and that the Works of Grace which James takes in are but conditions without which our Justification begun without them shall not be continued and of our finall Absolution or Justification in Judgement and so are but a Particular and not an Universall or Legall Righteousnesse Of which I have given a full account in my Confession 5. He saith They maintain Freewill even in the best actions You not Repl. Freewill is either 1. Natural which is but its self-determining power with spontaneity and this we deny not For who denyeth man to be man and to have the Facultatem Volendi Or it is 2. Moral and that is 1. Political when a Governor gives the subject leave to do a thing and so we maintain that God giveth our Wills Freedom to all good and to no evil Or 2. Ethical which is nothing but the right inclination and Habits of the will with the absence of the contrary Habits And so we say that the better men are the Freer that is the better are their Wills And the unconverted have not this Freewill nor the converted in perfection till they come to Glory For the Freedom is the Goodness And seeing the Will so far Free Ethically as it is Good Vertuous or Holy the Question then is Whether every mans Will be Good and Holy which I am conceited you will not dare to affirme A covetous man a drunkard â—â— ungodly man is as much or more denominated such from the habite as from the act he is most vicious that is Habitually so To say therefore that such a mans Will is Free in this Ethical sence is to say that he is habitually no covetous man no drunkard no ungodly man no sinner which being contrary to unquestionable experience me thinks should be easily deserted If you know of any thing else called Freewill besides these three before mentioned we should be glad to know it too The natural Essential Freedom viz. A spontaneous self-determining power we all confess The Political Freedome yea and obligation none denyeth The Ethical Freedome that is Vertuous or holy Inclinations in wicked men you will deny your selves where then is the difference between us and either the Greeks or you Why you 'l say perhaps that it s here That we deny the will to have that Indifferency which you affirme as to opposite objects But we are loath to sight with you in the Dark Do you mean by Indifferency an Indifferency of Natural Power or an indifferency of inclination or Habite The first we do not deny The will is a natural faculty that hath naturally no determination to One where many means are propounded but is undetermined and hath a natural Power to determine it self to either But yet you know the Wills Natural Power is exercised according to inclining Objects and Habits And you cannot expect that men who are Habitually inâ—ined earthwards should Will Heavenly things and â—â—nounce earthly things meerly because they have a â—atural Power of choosing for they want that inâ—â—ination which is called commonly the Moral â—ower And I should suppose that in regard of this â—oral Power you will not affirm your selves that he â—ath indifferentiam ad oppositum To say that a mans â—ill is indifferently inclined to Good and to Evil â— to say that the man is habitually neither good nor â—ad unless as privation of due inclinations denomiâ—ate him bad I say the more of this â—ecause I finde others of your party and â—ome that seem to disown both you and us as a late Treatise of Repentance among others can witness â—o harp so much on this string and confusedly talke â—f Freewill before they tell us what they mean and â—o perswade the world that we teach that God hath â—aid such a natural necessity on man to sin as he hath â—o eat and drink and sleep and that God might as well damne men for being hungry or sleepy as for being sinful in our sence As if there were no more faultiness in a vicious disposition of the Will it selfe then in a necessary natural inclination or Appetite of those faculties which were never made to rule themselves but to be moderated by the Will of Reason It may be these men will either deny the truth of the words of the Holy Ghost that They that are accustomed to do evil cannot learn to do well no more then a Leopard can change his spots or a Blackamore his skin or else they will think such men excusable because they are so strongly enclined to evil and so if a man habituated to Lust shall vitiate their wives or a man habituated to malice shall beat them often or maim them or kill their friends they may think that he deserveth 〈◊〉 punishment but pity because he is so bad that 〈◊〉 could not morally that is he would not 〈◊〉 it But they say we teach that mens Wills have a â—â—cessity of sinning imposed on them But we hâ—â—â— learnt that Habites do not determine the Will natâ—â—â—ally nor alway infallibly but leave it free to a â—â—tural self-determination But yet we know that 〈◊〉 ordinarily determineth it self according to predominant habits And there must be somewhat extraâ—â—dinary to procure the Will to determine it self 〈◊〉 good where it is habitually inclined to evil So much may serve to vindicate our Doctrine about Freewill And as for the cause of its captivity it belongs noâ— to this subject to speak of it but to that of Original sin where the said Doctor so notably playes his part to which we shall not now digress The next instance of the Papist is this They iâ—â— the Greeks maintain seven Sacraments you not Repl. 1. This is another very immodest untruth I wonder that men dare venture their souls upon a Religion that must be thus upheld by falshoods Your own Writers before alledged witness that the Greeks deny the very use of confirmation and extreame Unction and how then can they account them Sacraments Nor
2. Either the Catholike Church is one or not If not then Popery is deceitful which maketh this its principal pretence for the usurping the Universal Headship If it be One then Popery is deceitful which is renounced by the far greater part of the Catholike Church and again renounceth them and separateth from them because they will not be subject to the Pope who never yet in his greatest height had the actual Government of half the Christian world 3. Either the Judgement of the Antient Doctors is sound or not If not then the Church of Rome is unsound that is sworn to expound the Scripture onely according to their concent If it be sound then the Church of Rome is unsound that arrogate a Uiniversal Government and Infallibility and build upon a foundation that was never allowed by the Antient Doctors as in the third Disput I have fully proved and which most Christians in the world do still reject 4. Either Reason it self is to be renounced or not If it be then none can be Papists but mad men If not then Popery must be renounced which foundeth our very faith upon impossibilities and teacheth men of necessity to believe in the Pope as the Vicar of Christ before they believe in Christ with many the like which are afterwards laid open 5. Either our five Senses and the Judgement made upon them is certain and Infallible or not If not then the Church of Rome both Pope and Council are Fallible and not at all to be tâ—â—â—â—ed For when all their Tradition is by hearing or reading they are uncertain whether ever they heard or read any such thing and we must all be uncertain whether they speak or write it And then we must not onely subscribe to Fransc Sanchez Quod nihil scitur but also say that Nihil certo creditur But if sense be certain and Infallible then the Church of Rome even Pope and Council are not onely Fallible but certainly false deceivers and deceived For the Pope and his Council tell the Church that it is not Bread and Wine which they take eat and drink in the Eucharist But the senses of all sound men do tell them that it is I see that its Bread and Wine I smell it I feel it I taste it and somewhat I hear to further my assurance And yet if Popery be not false it s no such matter One would think the dullest Reader might be quickely here resolved whether Popery be true or false Look on the consecrated Bread and Wine touch it smell it taste it and if thou canst but be sure that it is indeed Bread and Wine thou maist be as sure that Popery is a delusion And if thou canst but be sure that it is not Bread and Wine yet thou maist be sure that the Pope or his Council nor any of his Doctors are not to be believed For if other mens senses be deceitful theirs and thine are so too But these things are urged in the following Disputations It s worth the observing how much they are at odds among themselves about the Resolution of their Faith and how neer some of them come to us of late as in White 's Sonus Buccinae and Doctor H. Holden de Resol fidei and in Cressy and Vane and others may be seen And their silly followers in England think verily that theirs is the common Doctrine of that Church And how solicitous Cressy and others are to take that Infallibility out of our way as a stumbling stone which the Italians and most of them make the Foundation and chief corner-stone What a task were it to Reconcile but Bellarmine and Holden Knot and Cressy both in English White had so much wit in his Defence of Rushworths Dialogues when he wrote in English to carry on the matter as smoothly as if they had been all of a mind But when he writes in Latin How many wayes of Resolution of Faith that are unsound can he find among the Papists as different from his own Vid. de fide Theolog Tract 1. Sect. 28.29 Reader Adhere to God and the Righteousness of Christ and the Teachings of the Holy Ghost by the Holy Scriptures and a faithful Ministry in the Communion of the Saints and as a member of the Catholike Church which arising at Jerusalem is dispersed over the world containing all that are Christians renounce not right Reason or thy senses and live according to the light which is vouchsafed thee and then thou shalt be safe from Popery and all other pernicious damning errors Marc. 10. 1656 7. R.B. To the Literate Romanists that will read this Book Men and Brethren A Writing that so much concerneth your cause I think should tender you some account of its publication especially when I know that not onely the divulging but the holding of the Doctrine contained therein is so hainous a matter in your eyes that if I were in your power the suspicion of it might bring me to the Rack and the Strappado and the confession of it would expose me to the flames I have many times considered that you could never sure endure to torment men in your Inquisition and consume them to ashes and so industriously to embroyle the Nations of the earth in blood and miseries to work them to your minds and set up your own way if you did not think it right and think them exceeding bad whom you thus destroy I find that my own heart would serve me to use Toads and Serpents and destroying Vermine half as bad as you do Protestants that is to put them to death though not to torment them so long but for gentler and more harmeless creatures I could not do it without a great reluctancy of my nature I must needs therefore by your works bear you record that you have a zeal for God but so had some before you that guided it not by knowledge Rom. 10.2 And I suppose your way is undoubtedly right in your own eyes or else you durst never prosecute it with such violence And yet one that was once as zealous in his way and shut up the Saints in prison and received authority from the high Priests to put them to death and compelled them to blaspheam did afterward call all this but madness Acts 26.9 10 11. But methinks I find my self obliged when I see men differ from me with such height of confidence to give them some Reason of my differing thoughts And yet it is no great matter of success that I can expect from this account To make any addition or alteration in your belief I have no great reason to expect while you read my words with this prejudice that they are damnable heresie and depend upon him whom you suppose infallible for the fashioning of your Faith And if I should say that I expect satisfaction from you with any great hope I should but dissemble For I have not been negligent in reading such writings of your own as might acquaint me both with
ignorant souls that they know not what the Religion is which they are turned to nor are able to give a reason of their change I have spoke with some affected to your way and some turned to it that have thought our doctrine was yours and yours was ours for instance that we taught that men might live without sin and you taught otherwise and have denyed that you hold the doctrine of mans merits and divers the like Are not these good Catholikes and well converted that be of our mind and do not know it And I observe among your own Writers that usually those that write in the most heavenly strain are those that give some wound to your profession by some considerable opposition as Mirandula Gerson Bernard and many more And it hath more disaffected me to your way to observe how low the design of your Religion is in comparison of ours You can let the common people be as blind as Moles and worship they know not what And you almost confin Religion unto Votaries and Cloysters When as the design of our Religion is to make the generality of our Pastoral charge more holy by far then your retired Votaries And as far as I am able to learn I do verily think that there are in the small Town that I live in some hundreds of souls that have more true self-denyal humility acquaintance with the saving works of Grace abhorrence of sin delight in God and believing serious thoughts of heaven then is to be found in twenty of your Monasteries When I am in one of their meetings which you account but a cursed Schismatical conventicle I can behold their diligent attendance their humble learning their modest orderly serious devotions and afterwards their painful recollections and improvement of what they learn But among you I should see a dumbe shew a pompous ostentation compounded of Ceremonies and words which are as no words being not by the people understood And I am certainly informed by travellers that have known them and by your own confessions that you have Priests even like your people and your services Even unlearned men that are but able to read their Mass like some of the worst of our old Readers whom we have cast out However you may have learned Jesuites and Fryars that are bred up chiefly for your Theological wars while the people that live in peace under you are famished It hath also much increased my disaffection to observe by what gross kind of cheating you carry on your cause You make a noise with the ostentation of Miracles but we can never see one of them nor have certain proof of it I confess if I could see them they would work on me much and I would go from Sea to Sea to see one but I know not whither to go with the least hope of such a sight You talk much of perfection and keeping the Law of God without sin But how long will it be before you will shew us one of those sinless perfect men I have enquired of those that I thought most likely and they have told me that such men there be in the world but would not be intreated to shew me one of them Nay it amazeth me that you should glory of perfection where it is so hard to find sincerity and to meet with a man that will not curse and swear and whore and be drunk Yea more to find that after this ostentation of perfection you come so low as to make those to be perfect which we suppose to be in a damnable state For how many abominable sins do you make to be venial Do I need to tell you what some of your own Writers say of Fornication and of a Priest rather keeping a Concubine then a wife and what gaines have come to the Church by Whorehouses and what a trade it is at Rome and Venice c. To give instance but in the sin of lying how light do you make of it yea you fear not to teach your English Proselytes That A lye is a mortal sin when it is any great dishonor to God or notable prejudice to our neighbor Otherwise if it be meerly officious or jesting it is but a venial sin They are the words of H.T. they say Henry Turbervile in his Catechism pag. 160. Yea he saith pag. 268. That By this we must know when a sin is mortal and when venial Because to any mortal sin it is required both that it be deliberate and perfectly voluntary And then set altogether and consider what your Writers make of venial sin no worse then your Doctor Thomas saith that Venial sin hath not perfectam rationem peccati but is Analogically called sin and that non est contra Legem quia venialiter peccans non facit quod lex prohibet nec pretermittit id ad quod lex per praeceptum obligat sed facit praeter legem It is not against the Law nor forbidden by it but beside it 12. qu. 88. art 1. ad 1. And that it deserves not damnation and eternal punishment is not due to it but temporal onely 12. q. 87. a. 5. c. q. 88. a. 1. c. And that it induceth not a blot on the soul 12. q. 89. a 1. c. But onely as it hindereth the lustre of Grace and therefore may be done away without the infusion of habitual grace 3. q. 8.7.2 c. Apply this now to your last instanced case It seems now that the Law of God forbiddeth not Lying when it dishonoreth God but a little and not greatly or when it is a prejudice to another but not notable It forbids not men to lie Officiously or in jest as H.T. speakes Nay it seems if you curse or swear or blaspheam the name of God or kill your own Father or Mother it is but a venial sin if you do it not deliberately and perfectly voluntarily And is not here a fine doctrine to make men perfect Have you no way to make your selves perfect but by making the Law of God imperfect How can you perswade us to value such perfection Doth H.T. think that a man that hath the use of Reason is not bound by God to deliberate of all the weighty actions of his life And if a man shall kill and blaspheam in passion and say I did not deliberate and therefore it is no sin God did not forbid it me Shall this excuse him Or is such doctrine to be endured among Christians If God do not make it a reasonable mans duty to use his reason in the greatest things and to deliberate of what he saith or doth I know not what either Reason or Law is made for I think on the contrary that Not deliberating especially in weighty cases is a heinous sin and the principal cause of all other sin in many of the ungodly So I say of the other limitation that it be perfectly voluntary Passion may make a blasphemy or murder but imperfectly voluntary and yet that proveth not that God forbiddeth
supplication and holiness within him and hath known by experience what it is to walk with God and offer him acceptable sacrifices and to receive the tokens of his acceptance and approbation Arg. 11. If Popery be maintained commonly by most wicked and abominable meanes and so by the Devil then it is no safe way to Salvation But the Antecedent is too true Therefore c. I speak not here of the meer miscarriages of some of their party but of the Pillars by which the Popes Kingdome is supported which that it is by abominable wickednesse I shalâ— give you but these few instances following 1. The very business or prize which they so much contend for is Pompe Greatness Dominion yea Tyranny in the world so that it is evidently Pride Vain-glory and Covetousness that sets them on and is the Spring of all their contests What 's the chief part of the quarrel but whether the Pope and Cardinals of one City even Rome shall be the Rulers and Masters of all the Christian world and all Princes and People obey them What unprejudiced man can be so blind as not to see that this contest is Tyrannical and that their Dominion is their Religion and their Pride is their faith and that the question is but that which one would think Christ had once sufficiently determined Who shall be the greatest Did not Christ chide his Disciples for this contest and say With you it shall not be so But the Papists having no better way to prove the Scripture a nose of Waxe and as flexible and multiform as they accuse it to be then by making it so to themselves by abusive violence and perverting it puting by the plainest words that Christ can speak and will take his Decision for no Decision when it makes against the Decisive Power of their Pope 2. And this is yet further manifest in that such a multitude of their Popes have been Whoremongers Murderers Heretickes Simoniacall buying the Popedome with money and poysoning one another to obtain the Popedome and living in it liker beasts then men Of all which I onely appeal to Platina and other of their own Writers 3. Another Pillar of Popery is most unconscionable impiety They can dispense with the vilest sins for the promoting of their Kingdom They can dispense with Oaths and with obligations of subjects to their sovereignes with leagues of Peace and amity among Princes yea they can themselves actually promote and execute the most abominable impieties that will but help them to attain their ends I will now onely instance in that which is fresh before our own eyes in England The Papists know that Anabaptists and Separatists are erroneous they know that Ranters and Quakers are abominable and yet for their own ends dare they here in England put on the vizard of Anabaptists and Quakers and with all possible subtilty and zeal and unwearyedness go up and down to seduce the people to be Anabaptists and Quakers as they did a while ago to be Seekers if not Infidels This is sufficiently known and proved not only by the Popish pretended Jew that turned Anabaptist at Hexham and was taken at Newcastle and others of them taken but by many other Testimonies some upon oath of those that have heard such confessions from their mouthes and many have known them in the Quakers Assemblies that have seen them before elswhere And all this is done by them that they divide us and break us in pieces and steal a credit to their pretended unity and Church Government and turn the hearts of the people from our Ministery and unsettle them and make them more capable and receptive of their own opinions and that they may make others abroad believe that we are all running mad And can that doctrine be of God which teacheth men to do such abominable things Or is that like to be the cause of Christ that must be thus upheld Is that person guided by the Spirit of Christ that dares draw others to the vilest blasphemies and wickedness in a dissembling garbe that so he may promote his own cause certainly Christ needeth not such hypocrisie and wickedness for the promoting of his Kingdom but it seems the Pope doth need it for â—is 4. Another of the Pillars of Popery is most gross and impudent lying Did I not know it to be true I durst not accuse them of it I will give you but these three instances following 1. They do raise and with greatest confidence propagate most shameless lies of those whom they take for their leading adversaries We read them in the open writings of Cochlaeus Bolse Staphiluâ— Thyraeus and many more What abominable stories have they of the Death of Luther Oecolampadius Bucer Calvin and others which it is very unlikely that they can be so blinded with maliâ—e as to Believe themselves What conference do we ever manage with them which they do not misreport Witness the late ridiculous passage after the conference between Fisher and Doctor Featly and Doctor White when they boasted beyond Sea of the number of Converts and in particular of two Earles and this to the Earl of Warwick himself not knowing him who was fained to be one of them and who had been a witness of their weakness And how poorly doth Weston in his Pamphlet put this off 2. The next instance I will give is their abominable lying legends by which they have befooled the people and made themselves ridiculous to the world and occasioned others to question their reports in other things I shall give you a taste of some of them as Doctor Featly hath gathered them to my hand in his Epistle to the foresaid conference yet with the Authors that report them that you may try whether they be wronged As that Saint Brigit laid her wimble and Saint Aldelme his chesible upon a Beam of the Sun which supported them vit Sanct. Brigit vit S. Aldelmi That Saint Nicolas while he lay in his cradle fasted Wednesday and Friday these dayes he would suck but once a day Festivale de Sancto Nicol That Saint Patricke caused a stoln Sheep to bleat in the belly of him that had eaten him Legend de St. Patricio That the Corps of Saint Laurence at the coming of Saint Stephensâ—ody â—ody smiled for joy and turned himself to the other side of the Sepulcher to make room for him Legend de S. Steph. That Clemens wrote a letter to Saint James seven years after he was dead Clem. Ep. ad Jac. in Ep. Pontif. That Saint Denis carryed his head in his hand three miles and rested at each place of the posts that are set between Paris and Saint Denis Breu. pictur Dionys That Saint Dunstane held the Devil fast by the nose with a pair of Tongues Leg. de Dunst That the chamber of our Lady was carryed by Angels through the air from Palestine to Loretto in Italy Hist de Nostre Dame de Lorâ—tto That our Lady helped Saint Thomas Becket to mend or
thousand years been ever a true General Council in the world The Popish Doctors as Doctor Holden de Resolut fid li. 1. cap. 9. pag. 156. say that It must arise to that degree of universality that there may not be any suspicion of conspiracies and combined factions that so every prudent man may be able heartily to say that the Assemblies are truely General And is it so when there are none but the sworn obliged vassals of the Pope of Rome and the Greeks Ethiopians Protestants c. and most of the Church are absent and when it is a known combination to promote their own espoused cause Quest 12. And then is the whole foundation of Divine faith extinct and lost when there is no General Council It may be we may have no General Council of a hundred or six hundred or a thousand years together Have we no Church then Or no certainty of Scripture or of the faith If they say that we are certain by the determinations of former Councils then they speak of the Church that is past and gone of which I moved the doubts before And the Canons of these we can read and understand as well as the Pope But when we appeal to former Councils and Ages they would hold us to the present Church and that must be their own and so be sure to be judges in their own cause Q. 13 I would know also whether it were by the judgment of a General Council that the first Churches believed the Scripture to be Gods word Did not the Church of Rome believe the Epistle to the Romanes and the Church of Corinth believe the Epistle to the Corinthians and so the rest to be the word of God as soon as they received them by an undoubted messenger from Paul Or did they stay till they had the judgement of a General Council or of all the Churches Indeed they made use of the intervening humane but certain testimony of him that was the messenger or bearer of the Epistle to know that it was the writing of Paul indeed and so we still maintain the necessity of a credible humane Testimony that these writings came from the Apostles hands But Tychicus or Trophimus or Timothy or Onesâ—mus were not a General Council nor the whole Church And doubtless those Epistles that were written to each particular Church were received by all the rest of the Churches upon the credit of that particular Church as having received it from an Apostle and not that the particular received it from the universal How did the universal Church know that those Epistles were written by Paul to Titus Timothy Philemon to the Ephesians c. but on the report of the persons and Church to whom they were written or else of those particular persons or Churches to whom the Apostle did communicate a copy of them Quest 14. And how did all the Church know the Scripture to be Gods word before the Council of Nice when there had been no General Council to â—etermine the business Quest 15. Dare a Papist undertake to justifie at Gods judgement all that part of the unbelieving world for not taking the Scripture for the word of God who have seen or heard it and had all other â—estimonies of it but never knew of the Testimony of the Pope or a General Council Shall none of â—hese perish for this unbelief Quest 16. And if it be the Pope that they call â—he Church and take it to be this infallible judge â— then demand How knows the Pope that the Scripture is Gods word or that the Christian Faith is â—rue The like also I ask of a Council How doth that Council know it themselves from whom we must know it Either the Pope and Council must believe it because they first believe themselves and so take it on their own words or else on the words of some others â—f the former then they Believe it because they Believe â—t then they are the original of their own belief and believe themselves first and then would have all the world to believe them And this is not onely to be â—o arrogant as to be the God of themselves and the Church but also so impudent and unreasonable as to believe themselves without reason and to expect that all others should do so too But if it be not from themselves that the Pope and Council believe the Scriptures from whom then is it not from any others of the present Church doubtless therfore it must be from the former Church And if so 1. Have not we the same means to know that the former Church believed the Scriptures as the Pope hath and therefore may believe it without recourse to him and as infallibly as he 2. And then it seems that acccording to their doctrine the Pope and his Council receive not their faith or the Scriptures on the same ground as all the rest of the Church must do so that the Church must have a twofold foundation of her faith whereof one is necessary only to one part and not to the other that is All the rest of the Church must believe the Scripture to be Gods word because the presenâ— Pope or Council saith so having first believed the infallibility but the Pope and Council themselveâ— need not any such ground of their faith And this distinction is not made between the Laity and the Clergy in general But even the Clergy themselves out of Council or who never were of the Council which sure is more then a hundred for one must thuâ— differ from the Pope and Council in the foundation of their Faith This is another taste of the famous Romane unity Paul saith there is One Faith bâ—â— if two divided Foundations or Reasons of Belieâ— do make two Beliefs surely the Church of Rome hatâ— two Quest 17. Do you believe that the Lord Jesâ— Christ understood the doctrine of your Papal Authority and infallibility when he so chid his Apostles foâ— striving who should be greatest and telleth them so expresly that the Kings of the Gentiles exercise Authority over them and are called Gracious Lords but with you it shall not be so And when he sets before them a little child and telleth them that he that will be greatest among them must be as that child that is that humility is the thing that they must strive to be great or excell in and so to serve one another in love Also when he commandeth them to call no man on earth Father or Master that is of their Faith Did ever Christ direct the world to go to the Church of Rome to know whether he be the Christ or whether the Scripture be his word or not Quest 18. Where is the Faith of the Church when the Pope is dead and when there are three or four at a time and when there is an interruption by Schisme thirty years together as it is known there hath been Hath not the Church then lost her faith by losing the foundation of it Or