ende that by them you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen and bée iustyfied For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe whiche is our wisedome ryghteousnesse sanctification thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe the gift of god Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes but it is gyuen vs froelye thorowe Gods lyberalytie Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne not for that he hath deserued it but bycause that hée pleased hym so for that hee loued him and that hée is hys chylde and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely Otherwyse grace shoulde bée no more grace but debte On the contrary when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death hée calleth it the wages of sinne declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it and that hée can deserue none other thinge but that that wages is due vnto hym for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell the Prince of this worlde euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne Wee 〈◊〉 then sée that the woorkes done by the chyldren of God and the seruice that the Angelles dooâ— vnto hym doe tende all vnto one ende to witte to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse of whiche they are alreadye in possession neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes of whithe they are not entangled But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD and the desyre of hys glorye so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge for they are alreadye washed and purged from theire sinnes by the bloudâ— of Iesus Christ and they re hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym And are already possessors of the kingdome of heaueÌ„ in hope the which is no lesse sure and certeine then if the thinge were present and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue Therefore the holy Apostle sayth that wee are saued thorowe hope and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde that is as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians for to correct and chastise vs that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels bicause that we are yet in the waye and capable of chastisment and ainendement But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere when wee are out of the waye and néede and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him For hée loueth him as his childe and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe Eusebius What hath the father then to do to chastise him Theophilus If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him without any punishment But fearing least thorow his great patience â— gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne hee is constrained to beate and chastise him although that he doe it not willingly but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse and to better aduise himselfe in time to come and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in y fault or in any other greater The which is no more to be feared in those whome GOD hath called from this worlde Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to câ—nâ—en them as is y same of the father towards his child for to amend him But if there hée a punishment it is rather to declare the iudgement the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor murtherer and other malefactors that haue deserued death not for to haue any recompence nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury For what recompence can they haue by their deathes neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly sith that they take from them their life But for to satisfie righteousnes and to mayntaine it to that end that other may take example and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice Eusebius To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn in his reuelation say Their works do follow them what workes do follow them but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before not after Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them Theophilus Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of god He sayth not other mens workes but theyr owne workes For as man lyueth of his owne soule and not of the soule of an other mans euen so doth the righteous man of his faith And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith not of the faith of an other euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes and not after those that other men shall doe For it is written Euery one shall beare his owne burthen And therefore Iesus Christ sayth by thy worde thou shalt bee iustified and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned That is so saye thy wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes of thy heart and by them thou shalt bée iuslified that is to saye absolued declared and pronounced iust and righteous Oâ— by them thou shalt be condemâ—ned knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condeÌ„nation For he knoweth y hearts néedeth none other witnes but his owne But y scripture vseth such maÌ„ner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie for to manifest declare vnto vs better the Iust IudgemeÌ„t of god which wil shew foorth y hâ—pecriâ—e of maÌ„ heart For maÌ„ how wicked soeuer his heart be he wold alwaies hide it if one put it to his own coÌ„â—câ—éce although y he do condemne it he wil not for y leaue off to aduasice brag he y le an honest man vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed as y theefe with his steaâ—ing For he is so peruers wicked
to mingle it with a little wine then with salt as the Priests do in their holy water Eusebius They do it not for to drincke Hillarius I beléeue it well for they are not so deintie they loue the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it Thomas For to deface purge the sinnes by the sprinckling thereoff Hillarius I am ashamed of their folly One may very well say vnto them as Diogenes said vnto a certeyne Panim who sprinckled himselfe with water for to purge his sinnes after their auncient manner O miserable man saith he if thou hast sâ—â—led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite thou canst not be absolued w sprinckling of the water how dost thou then thinck with the sprinckling of the water to be absolued and washed from thy sinnes Thomas It séemeth vnto me that if you haue such great thirst as you say you wil not begin to enter into a new matter for to make vs fast any longer Theophilus Admit it were so that we had a day of fasting For it is now Lent although it were not yet I do beléeue that Eusebius would haue fasted peraduenture Thomas also And when we shal be all vnder the Popes religion we must theÌ„ fast the Lent al out or els at the leastwise a great part thereoff Hillarius It is true and it is better for vs to fast at libertie then through compulsion But sith that ye be all of that minde let vs goe then to dinner ¶ Finis primi Dialog THE SVMME OF THE seconde booke SIth that we haue already declared in the first Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonicall Poeticall and Papisticall Purgatory and the diuers manners of purgations that haue bene aswell among the Panims as the Christian Idolaters and howe all those things were inuented by the Priestes for to serue their auarice and rapacitie the which was more greater in them then it was euer in others Now we wil bring in declare and sette foorth perticulerly their other practises the office which thei do for the dead how at the funeralls burialls mortuaries they follow more the errours and abuses of the Panims then the examples of the true seruaunts of God aswell in their singings and lamentacions that they make for the deade as in torches lyghtes belles ryngings and sepultures Therefore I haue intituled this Dialogue The office of the deade In which also we will declare what is the honour that is due vnto the deade what ought to be the burialls funeralls and the sorrowing of the Christians what hath bene the beginning in making coÌ„memoration prayers for the dead Also we will declare the principall poynts of the Masse of Requiem that they doe sing for the dead and wee will proue by their owne words that they doe pray rather for the Saints and Saintes and for those that are in Paradise in ioye and celestiall rest then for those which are in paynes be it in Purgatorie or in any other place according to their owne doctrine and how by their owne praiers they sufficiently testifie and witnesse that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certeine and that they holde not those whome they doe iudge to be in Purgatory as assured of their saluation It shal be also declared what is the true Purgatory of Iesus Christ and the true satisfaction of the Christians towards God for their sinnes and how the Papisticall Purgatory and satisfactions doe disagree altogether from the promises of god the remission of sinnes by Iesus Christ It shal be declared in lyke maner for what cause God doth chastise and punish the faythfull in this world and not in the other what are the good workes and wherefore God will iudge men by them and how we must watch and do penaunce and trauayle whilst we are in this lyfe without trusting vppon the good deedes that other will doe for vs after our death Item what are the good deeds that we ought to doe for the dead and wherein we may succour helpe them and the great iniury wrong that the Popes and the Priestes doe vnto Iesus Christ and to all the Christian people holding them in the sincke and dungeon of their peruerse doctrine and traditions What fishermen they are and what their flouds and ryuers are wherein they fish and catch the golde and siluer and not the men what are their relicks and holy bodyes and how they do abuse the dead bodyes to the great dishonour of God and of his Saints as the Coniurers and Sorcerers doe And wherto serueth all that which is done at the burialls and chiefely to those which are buried in the habite or coole of Saint Fraunces And in the ende we declare how Iesus Christ contayneth in himselfe all that which is needefull for vs both in lyfe and death For to enter then into the matter Theophilus bringeth the other in order THE SECOND DIALOGVE which is called the office of the dead THeophilus You did erewhile complayne bicause that in speaking of Purgatory wée were so affectioned after it that it hav almost made vs to forgette our dinner But now I doe feare very much the contrary that the dinner doth make vs forget purgatory and the residue which yet remained to be thought on Hillarius You know very well that the Priestes haue accustomed to breake their fast and to eate the soppe in the wyne in the middest of their Masse Wherefore it were good reason that we did pause a lyttle in the middes of our Masse for to breathe our selues For we haue sayd and sunge inough for the dead for to drinke once And yet wée are more beneficiall vnto them then the Priestes For wée haue not dronken vppon their costes and expences Thomas Therefore you are so much the soberer For me thinkes that you haue not druncke very much according to that that you say you were a thirst Hillarius I toke that which sufficed me and no more and was content For it doth to me more good then all that which the Priestes and Moonkes haue eaten and dronken in the name of the dead doth profite the dead It is already longe since that I would haue brought in for you that but I doe alwayes wayte when that Eusebius would beginne But I know very well that the dinner hath a lyttle abated his choler and that the aduice and counsayle of Seneca is good who counsayleth those that are subiecte to ire choler not to fast nor to take in hande any wayghty matter if they do finde themselues by experience to be more enclyned to wrath before they haue eaten then after bicause that hunger increaseth it the more Eusebius Therefore doe you breake your fast so willyngly in the morning and are so much afraide to fast You must not impute my choller vnto fasting but to your importunate and wicked tongue For he must haue great patience which would not be moued to wrathe through your
hope either to merit or not to merit and a place to do good or euill as in this mortal life and to be damned or saued Eusebius There is great difference For in this life man may merit or not merit of him selfe But after he is dead he can do no more for him selfe but others may do it for him And the merites of those that bee alyue doe serue him to saluation Theophilus And so by that meanes Iesus Christe shal be a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead the merite of his death and passion shall saue neither the one nor the other but the lyuing shall saue themselues during their life and after their death others that shal be thē alyue shal saue them especially the Priestes and Moonks By that meanes we haue many sauiours and men should neuer be certaine nor sure of their saluation neither before their death nor afterwards whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures Eusebius And if I would maintaine that those which are in hell can be somewhat deliuered from the pains theroff eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing or bicause of the good deedes that they themselues haue done during their life that should be a strange thing vnto thée What wouldest thou aunswere to that Haue wee not the witnes of a great many histories and good doctours worthy to be beleeued which certefie vs how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines of hell who notwithstanding did put to death many of the Christians and namely Sainct Ignacius the discyple of S. Iohn the Euangelist It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers that Sainct Machaire deliuered a priest being a Panim who affirmed vnto him that he was damned And in the life of sainct Brandon we read that hee did sée Iudas which walked by the meadowes of whom he asked the cause wherefore he was not in hell who aunswered him bicause of the good deedes that he did in his life time he had therefore some solace and comfort Theophilus If Thou canst no better confirme my sentence nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine variable inconstant and gamesayinge it selfe For hast thou not alreadie confessed vnto me that the priestes do not praye for the dampned bicause that there is no deliuerance from hell and from the fire of hell Consider I pray thée how that agreeth with those goodly fables with that which thou meanest now to speake off Eusebius If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors and especially of Saint Thomas you might easely make all these places agrée For they do alledge foure opinions reasons for to satisfie suche doubts The first is that Traianus was raysed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory and that he dath done penance in this life thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his sinnes Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God and hath bene saued and this is the best allowed opinion of the doctors The second is that the soule of Traianus was not simplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof but that his paine was suspended and delayed vntill the daye of iudgement and afterwardes shal be saued The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him not from the place of hell but from the paine The fourth which is also best allowed among all the other that the soule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell and hath obtayned mercie thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory the which thing was done not after the common law but after the disposition and dispensation of the wisdome and prouidence of God who did foresee that Sainct Gregory should pray for him Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue sentence but by a sentence suspenciue The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge For Sainct Hierome saith that the priuiledges are but for a fewe people and not for all For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all And the things which go out of square from the common lawe ought not to bee drawen into a consequence Hillarius I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche is written in the Aeneados of Virgill the which Cyble recited speaking to Aeneas after this manner Then prophet Cyble said O borne of bloud of heauenly kind Thou Troyan Duke the way that leads to hell is light to finde Both nights and dayes the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape But backward vp to climbe and free to Skies est soones to scape Their woorkes their labour is few men whom equall loue did loue Our vertue pearcing all did to the starres aduaunce aboue Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor whiche peraduenture Iupiter in whom Traianus did beléeue granted vnto him Theophilus I do greatly meruayle both of Thomas of Aquin and of other questionarie doctors whiche haue taken suche great paines for to couler and set foorth a fable It must be that they haue had very much leasure and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires They would sooner haue giuen a more true and certeine solution if they had by and by answered that they receiued not such fables as some of their owne secte haue done namely our maister Iohn Maioris the Scotte the whiche I haue heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Mountaigu Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt both the history of Sainct Machaire and also that of S. Brandon As touching that same of Traians although that he alledge the common solutions of other doctors yet neuerthelesse he first doth aunswer that he knoweth not from whence that history had his first beginning the which hath no certaine author not withstanding that some doe attribute it vnto Iohn Damascenus But how shoulde hee haue written it sith that according to their owne witnesses and chronicles he raigned long time before that saint Gregory lyued and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne For their chronicles do witnes that Damascenus florished in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodosius The which yet neuerthelesse I beléeue not For by that account he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambrose neuerthelesse there is great differēce betweene his bookes and these of Sainct Ambrose For these of Sainct Ambrose are a great deale purer keepe a great deale better the puritie of that aunciēt church But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoseus which rayned after Honorius Although that it be so by their owne Chronicles he was before the time of Gregory about 152. yeares For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare 592. Hillarius It must néeds be then that either the Chronicles are false or the witnes of those the do make Damascenus the author of that fable Except peraduenture they will say that thorow the spirite of prophecie he hath
and lyes and especially by theire Croysarde which hath brought forth Luther in place who was the first that discouered their disceyte Theophilus It is very true that that which you say hath serued for some thing For where Iesus Christ hath commaunded his Disciples that their lyght should so shine before men that they seeing their good workes might be induced to glorifie God Those héere haue so lyghted and kindeled the fire of their Purgatory that euery one beginneth to sée the darke places wherein they haue put vs But that were but a small thing if God thereby had not sent from Heauen another fire more vehement and burning which hath burned and consumed it altogether Thomas Did the lyghtening fall vppon it or the fire and brimstone that consumed Sodoma and Gomorra Theophilus Not yet For God who is full of compassion and mercy and longe suffering will not sodainly vse such rigor and vengeaunce And therefore the fire that he hath sent is more for to illuminate and make hotte then for to burne and cousume But it is of such a nature and force that it draweth after it the fire of the wrath and indignation of God vpon those which by the same will not be illuminated That is it of which Iesus Christ speaketh off saying I am come to put fire on the earth and what is my desire but that it be kindeled And for to declare better what is the vertue of that fire and what fire he meaneth he hath sent his holy Ghost vnto his Apostles and Disciples lyke a tongue of fire witnessing thereby that it is hée of whome Iohn Baptist hath spoken saying who shall baptize you with the holy Ghost and with fire That is a fire that hath an other vertue then to purge the purses of the poore sinners For it purgeth in deede the soules the which none other fire can doe And therefore he hath sent his Apostles for to carry that fire and to sette on fire all the world that thorow the same all sinnes filthinesse and iniquities should be purged in his Church as in a furnace that all that which was false mettall should be so tryed and melted that nothinge should remayne but pure gold and that all the relicks of the olde Adam should be burned and consumed in suche sorte that all the true children of God should be made new creatures throughe the power and vertue of Iesus Christ who alone hath made the purgation of our sinnes puryfying our hearts through fayth washing and making them cleane with his precious bloude Hillarius Behold a Purgatorye much differing from the other For in the other they doe nothing without money but in this heere we must not haue any Theophilus But he that will giue and offer vnto it is accursed of God and sent to hell fire as it appeareth by the reprehension that Saint Peter did so rigorously vnto Symon the Sorcerer cursing both him and his money that he offered Hillarus I am not abashed althoughe hée were a begger For he was very rigorous and cruell vnto those that did bring him money Those that say they are his successours haue not done the lyke But cleane contrary that is that he that will be best welcome vnto them must not come emptie handed For it is wrttten Thou shalt not appeare before the Lord emptie They haue well aduised on those places that speake of bringing for to make them serue for their gayne and profite although that they doe vnderstande nothing of them And therefore they say vnto those that doe bring any thing vnto them Intra in gaudium Domini tui Enter into the ioye of thy lord Centuplum accipies vitam aeternam possidebis Thou shalt receiue an hundreth times as much and possesse eternall lyfe Theophilus Saint Peter studyed in an other schoole and remembred the commaundement that the maister gaue vnto him saying Freely ye haue receyued fréely gyue And for that cause hath hée himselfe preached in his name saying ye were not redéenied with corruptible things as siluer and golde from your bayne conuersation which yée receyued by the traditions of the fathers but with the precious bloud of Christ as of a Lambe vndefiled and without spot Forasmuch then as it is so are not those men worthy to be cast into euerlasting fire if they doe reiecte such grace when it is presented and offered vnto them and if they refuse to bée purged with that celestiall fire which was not sent vnto them for to consume them but for to saue them Hillarius Wée must not doubte of it Theophilus All other fire then besides that is a straunge fire the which the Lord hath forbidden willing coÌ„maunding that we should vse onely the same of his temple and aulter of which the Seraphin tooke and brought the cole in his hand wherewith he purged the lippes and mouth of Esay Also they ought to way and consider the example of Dathan and Abiron and what profit they receiued in offering of straunge fire other then that which was commaunded of god They offered it but it was to their owne hurt and destruction For God kindled fire against them and they were burned and consumed as the Babilonians were wyth the fire of their furnace And if God dyd not pardon Nadab and Abihu the proper sonnes of Aaron but caused them to bée burned and consumed openly in the sight of all the people onelye bicause that through negligence they did take other fyre then of the Temple doe they thincke that hée will support and beare rather wyth those who dyspise the fire of Iesus Christ his sonne and of his holy Ghost Therefore hee sayde not wythout a cause when hée did sende his Dysciples for to bringe that fire sayinge When you shall enter into any Citte or house if they wyll not â—â—â—â—ue you shake off the dust of your féete in a witnesse agaynst them For truely I saye it shall bée easier for the lande of Sodoma and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement then for those of that generation Wherefore I sayd but euen now the that celestiall fire draweth with it the fire brimstone which consumed Sodoma and Gomorra For he that shall not be purged by that fire in this world it is necessary that he be consumed in that hell fire And therefore it is better for vs that we doe holde our selues vnto that Purgatory sith that it hath pleased God to bring vs thether agayne then to séeke an other which in steede to purge vs doth burne vs in hell fire Thomas If it be so it is a greate deale better But I would gladly know how that fire hath bene quenched out so long time and now kindled againe Theophilus You may well vnderstand that when men woulde kindle an other they must quenche out thys heere and also whâ— men wold build an other Purgatory they must ruinate and destroy that of Iesus Christ For
men after their death to make Drations in their prayse aswell for the consolation and comforte of their parents as for to incitate and moue others vnto vertue by theire examples For that cause they doe rehearse their prowesses their vertues and valyauntnesse And to make an honest mention at sometime for to encourage others to bée vertuous Thucidides witnesseth that the custome to praise the dead did begin among the Greekes by Pericles who was the first that openly made an oration in the prayse of those which were dead in the warre of Peloponense Also among the Romaines Valerius Publicola was the first which after that manner praysed his companion Brutus as witnesseth Titus Liuius Afterwards that custome hath continued among the Gentiles Idolaters If our Priests would serue vs in that stead the thing would be more tollerable although the we haue the word of God sufficient inough for to merte moue vs vnto vertue honestie But they serue vs to none other ende but to ease and the greatest thoeues and vsurers are those vnto whom they doe the greatest honours and giue the greatest prayses and doe bury them with greatest magnificence But if any poore man doe bye that hath not readye money scant and with muche a doe shall hee haue one Priest sor to beare him companye nor one scant to ringe the lyttle bell Theophilus There is no doubt but the the auncient Christians bicause the some were come of the Iewes some of y panims haue yet hept many of the manners and customes that they vsed in their countryes the which yet neuerthelesse they haue chaunged into a better vse For the Iewes and Panims had many things which of theÌ„selues might be tollerable and to serue to some kinde of honestie and cluilitie if the supersticion and the foolish opinions had bene taken away In the auncient Churche when that any faythfull man was dead béeing constant in the fayth of Iesus Christ and that he made a goodly confession in his death they vsed to make a commemoration to the congregation for to incite and stirre vp others to such faithe and constantnesse and chiefely when he hath bene killed by the Tyrants and that he hath bene the true martir of Iesus Christ in the mids of his torments hath constantlye confessed the truthe and hath witnessed it by his death and sealed it by his bloude For that cause the Notaryes and Protonotaryes were constituted and appoynted who were charged to write truely and after the truth the Ecclesiasticull historyes the lyues and dooings of the holy Martirs true seruaunts of God for the edification of the Church and congregation for at certein times they made commemoration vnto the Congregation of the fayth and constantnesse of the Martirs for to comforte and for tesie the poore faythfull in the middes of the persecutions that they suffered for Iesus Christ to the ende that after the example of the Martirs they shoulde prepare themselues rather to dye valyantly for the witnesse of the truth then to renounce and forsake it And the Dration and Sermon that Saint Ambrose made for the Emperour Theodosius after that he was dead tended to none other ende And when the good auncient byshops praysed after that sorte the good seruants of God that had faithfully trauailed in his worke vyneyard they did go about no other thing by that meanes but to edifie the congregation with good examples euen as the holy prophets and Apostles haue described vnto vs the holy scriptures the liues and actes of holy men which haue bene called of God for to instruct and teach vs by their example This manner of doing was not altogether to be despised and it might be practised to ediflcation if sathan the enemie vnto all goodnesse had not altogether conuerted and turned it into superstition Idolatry and blasphemie as wee see and proue it dayely For from those beginninges the Prothonotaries are descended whome wée haue yet at this present time who keepe onelye the name without exercising the office For to what ende doe they serue vs Hillatius To hunt after and so laye wayte for benefyces What woulde you they shoulde doe woulde you haue them to wrytte and register the lyues of our Popes Cardinals Byshoppes Priests and Moonkes They will leaue the charge of that vnto the Lutheriaus whiche are their protonotaries for to describe and paint out the legend of such saints and Martyrs of Venus rather then of Iesus Christe For theyr lyfe and conuersation is so holy that they had rather that men woulde neuer speake of it and that the remembraunce thereoff shoulde bée altogether defaced and forgotten Yet I thincke that they rendered no greate thanckes vnto Platine who hathe wrytten so muche althoughe that he tourned the sayest side outwardes as nigh as hée coulde Theophilus Thys is yet the leaste faulte of the Prothonotaries But from that same fountayne is risen and sprong vp the errour of inuocation of Saints of feasts wanderings blessings relycks pilgrimages and all other Idolatry and supersticions which men do commit dayly about the Saints For wheras in the auncient Church men did but onely make mention of the lyfe faith and constantnesse of the Martirs and Saynts when the people assembled themselues in the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes without inuocating or praying to the Saynts but onely vnto God Afterwards in processe of time the supersticious and Idolatrous Christians haue made of the Saynts Gods and haue dedicated to them Feasts Temples Aultars and Chappell 's And haue begonne to sing Himnes and supersticious songs in their honour prayse after the same manner as the Panims and Idolaters did to their Binges and Emperours when they Caâ—onized them And are not content to preach their lyues and Legende as the auncients did but haue added vnto it fables and lyes and haue made to them Masses in such sort that for one supper of Iesus Christ we haue more then thrée hundreth nullyons of Masses all contrary and differinge the one from the other By that meanes the Prophecie the preaching of the worde of God the Supper of Iesus Christ Prayers and Ecclesiasticall assemblyes and the true commemoration of the Saints are altogether abolyshed in such sorte that there is nothing but that it is altogether peruerted and tourned into more greater superstition and Idolatry then euer it was among the Panims As much happened about the other faythful that dye which are not counted for Canomsed Saynts For as on the one side they are giuen to inuocat pray to the Saynts whom they beléeue to bée in Heauen Euen so on the other side they giue themselues to praye for the deade whom they thinke to haue yet neede of their prayers and good deedes for to helpe them and to prepare the waye to Heauen â—â— steede of the simple commemoration y they did in y auncient Chruch without vsing praiers for the health of their soules but
water or W any thing that one can do to it Therfore it was called inextinguible Hillarius It must be if that be true that it wae artyffcially made or else by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had such fire as that same which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges the which they dyd saye sell from keauen I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus what thinckest thou hathe bene the first cause of that Idolatry Theophilus I cannot perceyue that they haue any other cause but the same whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms which haue delfied and called Gods all the creatures of whome men dooe féele ayde and helpe Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby and howe necessarye it was vnto mans lyfe and howe it represented the fires and celestiall lyghfes of the sunne and of other planets and starres whome mey haue also â—olden for Gods bycause of their greate beautie and vtilytie they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iust occasion to holde and take the fire for a God whiche they dyd sée to bée of one selfe nature wyth the celestiall fire whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vnto all thinges as the soule of them They had yet certeine other occasions in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire and calleth hym a consuminge fire and that God appeareth sometime in the lykenesse of fire and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes for to consume the sacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes They had more iust occasion to confirme themselues in that opinion and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion then the Papistes haue for their Images and Idolls For wée cannot denye but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God which sheweth foorth and reprosenteth vnto vs it selfe more lyuely then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde And therefore God woulde appeare in the lykenesse of fire and represent hys gyftes and graces his vertue and power by the same the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images and woulde neuer appeare in them nor speake nor doe any vertue or myracles by them but hath lefte the same for the Dyuell who is serued wyth such instrumentes the whiche God hath altogether reiected and cursed and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles calling them filthynesse vanytie lying nothing abhomination and other like names which oftentimes are rehearsed in the bookes of the Prophets Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Persians good occasion to preferre it aboue all the other For sith that all the other were either of wood and of slone or of golde silver or other mettalles he did melte burne and consume all insomuch that there was not one whiche coulde resist him Hillarius Xerxes hing of Persia declared it very well vnto the Greekes when hée came into Greece wyth so great an army For hée burned all the Temples Idolles and Images of Asia except the same of Diana the Goddesse of the Ephesians bicause of the excellent beautie of the same and for the cunning buylding which was therein that it was compted among the seauen moste chiefest workes which was in the worlde which for their admirable and excessiue beautie building and cunning were called the seauen miracles of the worlde Thomas Wherefore did Xerxes the same Hillarius Bicause that the Persians had no Temples nor Images and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vnto the maiestie of God which is infinite to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande In lyke manner Plutarch doth write that the Romaines haue bad their Temples wythout Images after that the citie was builded 170. yeares bicause that they were taught by the king Numa that God was an inuisible spirite which neuer was created And notwithstanding that they doe honour the fire vnder the name of the Goddesse Vesta yet neuerthelesse they neuer made Image for to represent the one nor the other but were content to kéepe that holy fire as hath bene sayde and as it appeareth by the witnesse of Ouid saying Within the Temple fire remaind and still vnquencht did lye The fire and Vesta wanted forme to shew their shapes thereby And a little afterwards he sayth By Arte of Syracusia framd there hangeth in the aire A little globe that represents the forme of heauens faire Thomas If the Persians did take the for God they did not altogether without reason if they would not haue locked shut him vp For he doth open the gates although that one would shut him vp knoweth to go out euery way Hillarius The experience hath bene well shewed in the Temple of Diana the Ephesian For notwythstandinge that Xerxes spared it yet neuerthelesse his GOD woulde not spare it thorowe whose ayde Herostratus dyd bringe it to passe who dyd set it on fire and bourned it altogether Thomas Wherefore dyd hée that Hillarius Hée hath confessed hymselfe that hée dyd it for couetousnesse of renowne to that ende that men should speake of hym For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe such an acte to the ende that the remembraunce of his name shoulde bée eternall amougest men Theophilus Herostratus dyd let the Ephesians well to vnderstande that the fire had more vertue then their Diana Hillarius Thou vnderstandest not the cause and howe the Panims dyd excuse the Goddesse Thou oughtest to vnderstande that the verye same night that Herostratus dyd sette the Temple of Diana on fire Olympias the mother of greate Alexander was in hauayle wyth child bicause that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander shée coulde not defende hir Temple For thou doest very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle And therefore shée béeinge absent and busied aboute Olympias and hir sonne Alexander shée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor resist the God of the Persians no more then the Gods of our Priestes can at this daye resist it For that cause the Chaldeans dyd meruaylously beast themselues against all other Patyons sayinge that there were none that had suche a God as theirs which consumeth all other Yet neuerthelesss if the tale or historye bée true whiche Suidas dyd tell of a Prieste of Canopus hée played or shewed them a fine feate of whome hée hath written that the Priest of god Canopus which was adored and worshipped of some in Aegypt seeing the arrogancie and pride of the Chaldeans fearing also to loose his good théere and fare if the maiesty of his God were diminished deuised this crafte and discepte In Aegypt they vsed to make waterpottes of earth hauing many holes for to distill the water and to make it more pure bicause that
canon which was made But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians the which yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow no more then that which S. Cyprian Origene did which did distribute the supper vnto young children when their fathers and mothers brought them in their armes in comming to communicate the same And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there what may chaunce afterwards For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Iesus Christ two hundreth and fiftie Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Iesus Christ Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed thought the he which after that he was baptised hauing once receiued the supper could neuer be damned or at the least should be once delyuered from damnation bicause that Iesus Christ hath said I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen if anyman eate of this bread hée shall liue for euer They vrge vpon the letter said that Iesus Christ could not lye which hath promised the same Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh confuteth their errour Beholde y absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter For whosoeuer wil according to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sacrament of the alter take litterally y which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh drinking his bloud there is no doubt but that we shall be constrayned to confesse that all those which haue once taken the supper are all saued and y all those which shall not once receiue it are all damned And so it shal be no lesse requisite to giue y supper vnto the young childrē to giue power vnto womē to giue it them then y baptisme they y would take the words those matters by y rigor And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged by the absurdities which should follow of thy expositiō the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ as I haue declared vnto thee thou maist wel know that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner as thou doest expounde it For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme nor of his institution But speaketh of the regeneration of man and sheweth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian to wit that it is necessary that he doe renounce forsake his first generation natiuitie which is altogether corrupted and cursed and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God and thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde insomuch that he is made a newe creature bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ the true celestiall Adam euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam And therefore hath hée sayd Except a man be borne from aboue or a new be cannot sée the kingdome of god And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following which signifieth none other thing then that which hée hath already sayd before For to be borne from aboue or to bée borne againe and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost are equiualent manners of speakings And the two propositions of Iesus Christ are equipolent y one to the other ther is none other difference sauing that y last is more ample and expoundeth the first For sith that our first natiuitie is carnal it must be y the second be spirituall Sith that the first man is of the earth earthly it is requisite that the second which is from heauen be heauenly and spirituall Now that regeneration transformation cannot be made but by the spirite of god For as it is written in that same place That which is borne of the flesh is flesh That that is borne of the spirit is spirit And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y which he had said before Except y a man be borne frō aboue or a new he cannot see the kingdome of God Afterwardes saith which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost bicause that the holy Ghost author of that regeneration is giuen from aboue which worketh a secōd natiuitie in vs which is celestiall and spirituall Eusebius But what néeded it to adde the water was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost Theophilus Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd speaking of the ministry of Iesus Christ That he would baptise with the holye Ghoste and with fire what néeded it sith that he named the holy Ghost to adde vnto it the fire Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire as some do say that some Christians which are amongst y Indians Aethiopians Persians do who for that cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire Eusebius One may well perceiue there that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire then the holy Ghost of whom he hath already spokē the better to expound the nature of the same for as the fire is pure cleane and cannot suffer any spot or filth but purgeth maketh cleane illuminateth the consciences enflameth them to the loue of god For which cause he was sent vnto y Apostles in y liknes of tongues of fire the which S. Iohn did foresée forespeak off vsing such wordes Theophilus Thy exposition doth please me very much Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie to take in that place the fire for the spirit of God for more ample expositiō of his nature properties wherfore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take y water in that place for that same signification séeing y agréeing y the water hath with the nature of y holy Ghost For there is no lesse reason but a great deale more appearance For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first the fire afterwards Wherfore it séemeth either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere by a more darker thing Although that thy aunswere doth sufficiently satisfye that obiection But in that place Iesus Christ putteth y water first afterwards as if hée would expound his Metaphore and comparison and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse he declareth what he would signifie by that water to wit the holy Ghost vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes First bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane and so necessary vnto mans life that it is impossible for men to lack it so is it of y water the which is also by nature cléere pure and
beleeue that thou art not ignorant how your owne doctours do answere to that place Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine saying that his exception is not sufficient and that the man which knoweth Iesus Christ may be saued without baptisme by an other meanes then by martyrdome But which is more he affirmeth that the man which beléeueth himselfe to be perfectly baptised yet neuerthelesse is not shal be out of all daunger of dampnation and saith that that saith shoulde sâ—rue hun to saluation although that it were builded vpon a falsitie But what is he among vs which is perfectly assured whether he be baptised or no. Howe can we knowe it but by the witnesse of an other Therefore the maâ—ster of the sentences aunswereth vppon the obâ—â—ctions made by thée that we must vnderstande the wordes of saint Augustine according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places in which he entreateth that matter more amplie And therefore saith he we must vnderstande those thinges of those which haue had the time and leasure for to be baptised haue not done it For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptised and cannot being ouertaken with necessitie the benignitie liberalitie of y most puissant God recompenseth y which wanted in the sacrament For when he may pay if he do not pay he abideth bound But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it God which hath not tyed his power vnto the sacraments imputeth it not vnto him I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maister of the sentences which yet proueth by saint Augustine that the inuisible sactification hath béene in some and hath profited them without the visible sacramentes saying after this manner the visible sanctification the which is done by the visible sacrament may be without the inuisible but it cannot profite Yet we must not neuerthelesse contemne and dispise the visible sacrament For the contemner of the same cannot be sactified inuisibâ—â—e And notwithstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptisme of bloude he declareth yet neuerthelesse sufficiently ynough that he which without being baptised sheddeth his bleude for the name of Iesus Christ is not baptised by that bloude which hath béene shed But that the Church holdeth him for baptised bicause that by the same he hath sufficiently witnessed that he hath not dispised baptisme but that he woulde willingly receiue it if it had béene possible for him Sith that he hath shewed such faith in the Gospell of Iesus Christ Eusebius I graunt that thou saiest as touching men of age vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptisme But of young infantes it is otherwise For sith that there is neither â—aith nor repentance in them they cannot be saued without baptisme Therefore saith the maister of the sentences that those which dye without baptisme yea though one bring them to bee baptised shal bee dampned and doth proue it by saint Augustine saying holde this for a suertie and doubt nothing at all of it that not onely men hauing already reason but also the young infants which begin to liue in their mothers belly and doe there die without the sacrament of holy baptisme which is giuen in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost or those which without the same doe passe out of this worlde after that they are borne shal be punished with eternall fire For although that they haue not had sinne by theyr proper acte and woorke yet they haue neuerthelesse drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie the dampnation of originall sinne Theophilus Thou hast nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants For if the wordes of Saint Augustine be true according to the sence whiche thou giuest vnto them the little infantes dying without baptisme are all dampned and punished in eternall â—re They are then in hell Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne And therefore they haue not all allowed that sentence but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell in such sort that some for that cause haue called S. Augustine the hangman of the young Inâ—ants notwithstanding that he is well worthie that they doe speake of him more reucrently For I do not thinke that he himselfe would that these wordes shoulde be taken after such râ—gour and extremitie And therefore it is néede to consider the occasions which might haue moued him to write after that sort For if the necessitie and the impossibilitie excuseth the great ones wherefore shall the little ones â—e lesse excusable which haue yet more excuse then the great ones may haue For when they dye being young or in their mothers bellie or out of it what fault then was in them that they were not baptised hath God conceiued more greater hatred against them then against the great ones although the baptisme of the water shoulde be asmuch necessarie vnto saluation as you do make it if there be any exception for the ene by what right reason may it be denyed vnto the others when the cause the excuses are equall But we ought to consider that in the tâ—â—e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people which had not the Sacraments in such estimation and reuerence as they ought to haue as wée haue proued it in our time in which some haue so much attributed vnto it that they haue made of the visible signes a Iesus Christ and an Idole The others to the contrarie do holde them as signes without vertue and efficacie no more then the signes which the souldiours do beare for to shewe what Prince they do serue Hillarius But haue we not had Anabaptistes which would baptise them selues againe and haue coâ—demned the baptisme of young Infants willing to deferre it vntill they should come vnto the age of discretion Theophilus Let vs not doubt that from the time of Saint Augustine but that there be many founde more negligent then they ought to he touching the sacrameÌ„ts the which thing hath coÌ„pelled the aunâ—ients to magnifie them so much And therefore those which are come after them not considering the causes wherefore they did the same haue taken the wordes rawly without a fit interpretation and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols as though the vertue of Iesus Christ and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes Wée cannot deny but that in the time of those good auncient fathers many after that they had knowen the Gospell tarryed not long time to cause themselues to be baptised yea often times vntill the latter end of their life Nowe they did the same some through negligence others bicause of
Shall it be reasonable that the faythfull should be put into the hande of the diuell for to he subiect vnto him whom they haue vanquished and ouercome and punished by him ouer whom they haue triumphed Theophilus They haue not yet wel triumphed if they be yet so deteined and kept in sinnes that for them they must be kept in a fire altogether lyke vnto that same of hell for the time that they are there Mee thinkes that that office should be more decent and meete for the Diuels then for the Angells For it is not lyke to be true that the Angells should be the hangmen of the soules of the faythfull and that they shoulde take pleasure to imprison and torment so cruellye their neighbours and bretheren whiche are Citizens of Heauen with them I haue read in the holy Scriptures that the Angells caryed the soule of Lazarus into the besome of Abraham into a place of ioye and rest and that they haue deliuered Saint Peter and the Apostles out of prison But I haue neuer read that they haue lead them into prison nor into places of tormentes nor that they did leade the rich man into hell For as much as your Doctors confesse that the Diuels do holde themselues next to the soules of those which are purged in Purgatory and doe accompany them for to reioyce themselues of their torments and to mocke them of the same They may best giâ—e that office vnto them and to exempt and omit the Angells But what appearaunce hath it with thy exposition If the Duâ—el or the sinne ought héere to be vnderstanded for our aduerse partye it followeth then that Iesus Christ commaundeth vs to agrée and to be at one with the diuel and sinne But how can we be agreed with him and with God Furthermore he would that that same agréement should be done whilest that one is in the way that is to say in this lyfe For after that man is dead he is out of the way It must then followe that he must make héere his good déedes before he doe dye for to auoide that prison of Purgatorye And the same shall be for to confirme the prouerbe of the Priestes saying that better is the candle that goeth before then that that commeth behinde Eusebius How wilt thou interprete that place Hillarius Sith that there is an allegory and that your Doctors doe play so with the word of God I will also play and iest with them First although there were none other reason but that you will heare build the Purgatory vpon an allegory it is sufficient inough for to ouerthrow and pull downe all your foundation For there is not a Theologian which confesseth not but that the Allegoryes are not sufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine whatsoeuer it bée if it haue none other foundation more cléerer and more playne in the worde of God but is more proper and fitte for to beautifie and set out the matters to delite and mooue the auditors and hearers then for to proue and confirme it For one maye expounde them after diuerse manners accordinge to the dexteritie and wit of him which declareth them And therefore if I woulde ieste and playe with the woorde of GOD as your Doctours doe I might allegorise and declare that place expoundinge the Iudge for the Pope which is the God Pluto The aduersariâ— for the Priestes For they doe quarrell with vs alwaies for to get money from vs and we can neuer be at one and agréed with them except they haue al and that they haue eaten vs quicke and dead The Sergeaunt that is the Angell and the God Mercury For according to the Poetical Theologie he had wings and â—aryed the soules to hel and was the God of gayne of deceipts larcâ—nyes as already hath bene touched Now who leadeth the soules into Purgatory but that Sâ—rgeaunt héere of God Pluto As the cause of the gayne and hope of the money and raunsome which our Merchaunts and aduerse parties doe looke for They would gladly that we should agrée with them whilst that we are in the way in this present lyfe and that wée should distribute vnto them all our goodes without leauing any thing neyther to our children parents nor friends I am very certeine that after that we haue giuen them all and that there is no more hope to gette any more raunsome of vs that there shall bée no more prison for vs nor Sergeaunts for to leade vs thether Doest thou thinke Eusebius that my interpretation is not as good as thine I am well assured that as to the sence and meaning of the words of Iesus Christ neyther the one nor the other approcheth nigh vnto it and lesse thine then mine but according to your Theologie mine is more sufferable and more true Thomas Thou wilt then say that the one and the other are nothing worth and therfore Theophilus expound vnto vs the true sence and meaning of Iesus Christ Theophilus We must wel note and marke that which Hillarius hath sayd of Allegories How much difference there is betweene thiâ— héere of Iesus Christ and those which y expositors do make commonly For in these words of Iesus Christ there iâ— an example a comparison wrapped in with an Allegorie For Iesus Christ would not here declare any other thing but into what dangers inconuâ—niences those doe put themselues which had rather to goe to the â—igour of right then to agrée friendly with the aduerse partie before they doe come to iudgement to that ende that hée doth the better incitate and stirre forwarde men vnto amitie and brotherly reconcilyation of which he speaketh in this place After the same forte doth Saint Chrisostome expounde it without making any mention of Purgatory and he alloweth not those which do vnderstand by the aduerse partie the diuell but interpreteth that place oâ—â—lees anâ— processe Now our Lord Iesus the better to moue the hearers to brotherly reconcâ—lyation taketh example vppon the pleaders as if he shoulde saye If thy aduerse partie do bring thée into iudgement thâ—â— canst doe no better for thy honour and profite then to agrée with him before thou proue and try the rigour of right For if thou agrée friendly with the partie he may shew thée some faâ—our and forgiue thee the debâ—e and thou shalt auoyde the dishonour shame and the costâ—s which is bestowed vppon the playnts On the contrary if thou doe not agrée thou canst not so well auoyde the payment but the Iudge shall know it and thou shalâ— be condemned and compelled to pay to the vttermost all the debt without rebating one farthing euen as those which for debt are deteined and kept in prison vntill the ende of thâ— payment Beholde the example and the similytude which Iesus Christ propounded vnto vs for to bring vs to reconcilyation But he declareth not amply that which he would haue vs to vnderstand by the same but it suâ—â—seth him