our said Lord the King and the Body of the City aforesaid upon their Oaths present that at the Session of our Soveraign Lord the King holden for the County of Middlesex at Hick's Hall in St. John's Street in the County aforesaid on Monday to wit 16 Deaem in the year of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth before Sir Reginald Forster Baronet Sir Philip Matthews Baronet Sir William Bowls Knight Sir Charles Pitfield Knight Thomas Robinson Humphrey Wyrley Thomas Hariott and William Hempson Esquires Justices of the said Soveraign Lord the King to enquire by the Oath of Honest and Lawful Men of the County of Middlesex aforesaid and by other Ways manners means by which they might better know as well within Liberties as without by whom the Truth of the matter may be better known and enquired of whatsoever Treasons Misprisions of Treasons Insurrections Rebellions Counterfeitings Clippings washings and false makings of the Money of this Kingdom of England and of other Kingdoms and Dominions whatsoever and of whatsoever Murders Felonies Man-slaughters Killings Burglaries and other Articles and Offences in the Letters Pattents of our said Soveraign Lord the King to them or any four or more of them therefore directed specified as also the Accessaries of the same within the County aforesaid as well within Liberties as without by whomsoever howsoever had made done or committed and the said Treasons and other the Premises to hear and determine according to the Law and Custom of this Kingdom of England being assigned by the Oath of Ralph Wain John Vaughan Richard Foster Thomas Paget Robert Newington Henry Tompkins Robert Hays John Greenwood Peter Stimpson Josias Crosley Richard Richman Augustine Bear John King Nathaniel Brett Francis Fisher and Samuel Linn Honest and Lawful Men of the County aforesaid sworn and charged to enquire for our said Soveraign Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid upon their Oaths It was presented that Thomas White otherwise Whitebread late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Clerk William Ireland late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Fenwick late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk Thomas Pickering of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Grove of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Gent. as false Traitors against the most Illustrious Serene and most excellent Prince our said late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Their Supreme and Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in their Hearts nor weighing the Duty of their Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil The Cordial Love and True and Natural Obedience which faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly withdrawing and contriving and with all their Might intending the Peace and Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by Law established to subvert and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the Cordial Love and true and due Obedience which Faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards him the said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put the four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly and trayterously did purpose compass Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said late Lord the King from the Regal State Title Power and Government of his Kingdom of Enggland utterly to deprive depose cast down and dis-inherit and him our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the said Kingdom and the sincere Religion of God rightly by the Laws of the said Kingdom established at their Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingom of England throughout all its parts well instituted and ordain'd wholly to subvert and destroy and war against our said late Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to levy and those their most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fullfil and perfect They the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove other false Traytors to the Jurors not known the said four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our said late Soveraign Lord the King the Thirtieth with Force and Arms c. at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously did assemble themselves unite and meet together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously did consult and agree our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion within this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the sooner to fulfil and perfect their said most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and purposes they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove and other false Traytors of our said late Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same 24th day of April in the said 30th year of our said late Soverain Lord the King at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously among themselves did conclude and agree that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering John Grove him the said late Soveraign Lord the King should kill and murder and that they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors to the Jurors unknown A certain number of Masses between them then and there agreed for the Health of the Soul of him the said Thomas Pickering therefore should say Celebrate and perform and therefore should pay unto the said John Grove a certain Sum of Money between them then and there agreed and the Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath aforesaid did
I Do appoint Richard Sare to Print the two Tryals of Titus Otes for Perjury And Order That no other Person do presume to Print the same Jeffreys THE TRYALS Convictions Sentence OF TITUS OTES UPON TWO INDICTMENTS For Willful Malicious and Corrupt PERJURY AT THE KINGS-BENCH-BARR at Westminster Before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys Baron of Wem Lord Chief Justice of His Majesties Court of Kings-Bench and the rest of the Judges of that Court. Upon Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th days of May Anno Domini 1685. And in the First Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord King JAMES the II. c. LONDON Printed for R. Sare at Grays-Inn-Gate in Holborn and are to be sold by Randal Taylor 1685. Die veneris oct Maii 1685. in Banco Regis De Term. Pasch Anni Regni Regis Jacobi primi Dominus Rex versus Titus Oates THis day being apointed for the Tryal of one of the Causes between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates for Perjury the same began between eight and nine in the Morning and proceeded in the manner following First Proclamation was made for Silence then the Defendant was called who appeared in Person being brought up by Rule from the King's Bench Prison where we was in Custody and was advised to look to his Challenges to the Jury that were Impanel'd to try the Cause Oates My Lord I am to manage my own Defence and have a great many Papers and things which I have brought in order to it I pray I may have some Conveniency for the Managing my own Tryal Lord C. Justice Ay Ay let him sit down there within the Bar and let him have Conveniency for his Papers Clerk Crown Cryer swear Sir William Dodson Oates My Lord I except against Sir William Dodson Mr. Att. Gen. What is the Cause of Exception Mr. Oats L. C. J. Why do you challenge him Oates My Lord I humbly conceive in these cases of Criminal Matters the Defendant has Liberty of excepting against any of the Jurors without shewing Cause provided there be a full Jury besides L. C. J. No no that is not so you are mistaken in that Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I am advised so I do not understand the Law my self L. C. J. But we tell you then it cannot be allow'd if Mr. Attorney will consent to wave him well and good Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord I know no reason for it I cannot consent to any such thing L. C. J. Then if you will not have him sworn you must shew your Cause presently Oates My Lord I cannot assign any Cause L. C. J. Then he must be sworn Cl. Cr. Swear him Cryer Sir William Dodson take the Book you shall well and truly try this Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates and a true Verdict give according to the Evidence so help you God Cl. Cr. Swear Sir Edmund Wiseman which was done Richard Aley Esq who was sworn Benjamin Scutt Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. For what Cause Oates My Lord he was one of the Grand Jury that found the Bill L. C. J. Was he so that is an exception indeed what say you Mr. Attorney Att. Gen. My Lord I believe he was upon one of the Indictments but I think it was not this L. C. J. But if he were in either of them he cannot be so impartial Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we will not stand upon it we 'll wave him Cl. Cl. Thomas Fowlis Oates Pray let me see that Gentleman who was shown to him Are you not a Goldsmith in Fleetstreet between the two Temples Fowlis Yes I am Oates Very well Sir I do not except against you only I desire to know whether it were you or not Cl. Cr. Swear him which was done Thomas Blackmore Sworn Peter Pickering Sworn Robert Beddingfield Sworn Thomas Rawlinson Sworn Roger Reeves Sworn Edward Kempe sworn Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. You speak too late he is sworn already Oates My Lord they are so quick I could not speak but he was one of the Grand Jury too L. C. J. We cannot help it now Mr. Att. Gen. I did know that he was so but to shew that we mean nothing but fair we are content to wave him L. C. J. You do very well Mr. Attorney General let him be withdrawn Cl. Cr. Mr. Kempe you may take your case swear Ambrose Isted which was done Henry Collier Sworn Richard Howard Sworn Cl. Cr. Cryer count these Cryer One c. Sir William Dodson Cl. Cr. Richard Howard Cryer Twelve good men and true hearken to the Record and stand together and hear the Evidence The Names of the Twelve sworn were these Jury Sir William Dodson Sir Edmund Wiseman Richard Aley Thomas Fowlis Thomas Blackmore Peter Pickering Robert Beddingfield Thomas Rawlinson Roger Reeves Ambrose Isted Henry Collier and Richard Howard Oates Before the Councel opens the Cause I desire to move one thing to your Lordship L. C. J. What is it you would have Oates My Lord I have three Witnesses that are very material one's to my Defence who are now Prisoners in the King's Bench for whom I moved yesterday that I might have a Rule of Court to bring them up to day but it was objected that they were in Execution and so not to be brought I humbly move your Lordship now that I may have a Habeas Corpus for them to bring them immediately hither L. C. J. We cannot do it Oates Pray Good my Lord they are very material Witnesses for me and I mov'd yesterday for them L. C. J. You did so but we told your Councel then and so we tell you now we cannot do it by Law it will be an escape Oates My Lord I shall want their Testimony L. C. J. Truely we cannot help it the Law will not allow it and you must be satisfied Cl. Cr. Gentlemen you that are sworn of this Jury hearken to the Record by Virtue of an Inquisition taken at Justice Hall in the Old Bayly in the Parish of St. Sepulcher in the Ward of Faringdon without London upon Wednesday the 10th of December in the 36th of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the II. by the grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Before Sir James Smith Knight Mayor of the City of London Sir George Jefferies Knight and Baronet Lord Chief Justice of this Honourable Court Sir Thomas Jones Knight Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas William Montague Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer Sir James Edwards Knight Sir John More Knight Aldermen of the said City Sir Thomas Jenner Knight one of his Majesties Sergeants at Law and Recorder of the same City and others their Companions Justices of Oyer and Terminer by the Oaths of twelve Jurors Honest and Lawful Men of the City of London aforesaid who then and there being sworn and charged to enquire for
the County of Middlesex aforesaid upon the 24th of April in the Year of our Lord 1678. nor did carry any Resolution to murder our said late Lord the King from Chamber to Chamber by any Persons to be signed and so he the aforesaid Titus Oates on the 17th day of Decemb. in the Thirtieth Year aforesaid at the Justice Hall aforesaid in the Court aforesaid upon the Tryal aforesaid upon the Indictment aforesaid between our said late Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove so as aforesaid had by his own proper act and Consent and of his most wicked Mind falsly voluntarily and corruptly in manner and form aforesaid did commit voluntary and corrupt Perjury to the great Displeasure of Almighty God in manifest contempt of the Laws of this Kingdom of England to the Evil and Pernicious Example of all others in like case offending and against the Peace of our said late Soveraign Lord the Knig his Crown and Dignity Upon this Indictment he has been Arraign'd and thereunto hath pleaded not Guilty and for his Tryal hath put himself upon the Country and His Majestie 's Attorney General likewise which Country are you your Charge is to enquire whether the Defendant be guilty of this Perjury and Offence whereof he is now indicted or whether not guilty If you find him Guilty you are to say to if you find him not guilty you are to say so and no more and hear your Evidence Cryer make Proclamation Oates Hold Sir I beg one Favour of your Lordship to give me leave to have that part of the Record wherein I am said to have sworn such and such things read distinctly in Latine L. C. J. Let it be read in Latin Cl. Cr. Juravit jur ' jurat ' predict ' ad tunc et ibidem jurat ' et impanelat ' ad triena exitum predict inter dict' Dn'um nostrum Regem et prefat ' Will'm Ireland Thomam Pickering et Iohannem Grove in Evidentiis dedit quod fuit proditoria Consultatio Anglicae Consult ' Jesuit ' qui Assemblat ' fuer ' apud quandam Tabernam vocat ' the White Horse Tavern in le Strand Le White Horse Tavern in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' innuendo super vicesimum quartum diem April ' Ann. Dom. milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo Octavo ad quam quidere Consultationem Whitebread Fenwick Ireland predict ' Thomam White alias Whitebread Johannem Fenwick et William Ireland innuendo et prefat ' Titus Oates fuer ' present ' et quod Jesuitae predict ' sese separaver ' in seperales minores Conventus quodque Jesuitae predict ' venerunt ad Resolutionem ad murdrand dictum Dn'um Regem et quod ipse idem Titus Oates portavit Resolutionem predict ' a Camera ad Cameram et videbat Resolutionem illam signat ' per ipsos praefat Jesuitas innuendo That is the Perjury that you are said to have sworn Oates Pray go on Sir Ubi revera Cl. Cr. Ubi revera et in predict ' Titus Oates non presens fuit ad aliquam Consultationem Jesuit ' apud le White Horse Tavern predict ' in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' super vicesimum quartum diem Aprilis Anno Domini milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo octavo necportavit aliquam Resolutionem ad d'tum d'num Regem murdrand a Camera ad Cameram per aliquas Perfunas fignand ' Mr. Just Withens Now you have read it go on Sir to make your Proclamation Cl. Cr. Cryer make an Ho-yes Cryen Ho-yes If any one can inform our Soveraign Lord the King the Kings Sergeant the Kings Attorney General or this inquest now taken concerning the Perjury and Offence whereof the Defendant Titus Oates stands Indicted let them come forth and they shall be heard for now he stands upon his Discharge Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Oates My Lord I desire your Lordship and the Court would be of Councel for me in one thing which I take to be a Fault and Error in my Indictment L. C. J. Look you Mr. Oates whatever you have to say of that nature you must not speak to it now you will have your time as to that hereafter in case you be Convicted Oates My Lord I have but one small exception to open to you L. C. J. We are now upon the Fact only Oates My Lord I beg you would give me leave only to tell you of a mistake in the Indictment which I hope when I have opened will satisfie your Lordship that it ought not to be put upon me or the Court to try this Cause or to be sure if there should be a Conviction I hope I may move an Arrest of the Judgement L. C. J. So I tell you you may but not now Oates Good my Lord hear me but a few Words the Indictment charges me to have given such and such Evidence that there was such a Consult of the Jesuites at the White-Horse Tavern in the Strand the 24th of April 1678. that the Jesuites did afterwards divide themselves in several lesser Companies that they came there to a resolution to murder the late King and that I swore that I carryed that Resolution from Chamber to Chamber and saw the Resolution signed by them so the Word is Signat ' now the Perjury assigned is that I was not present at that Consult nor did carry the Resolution from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and there the word is Signand ' now I conceive if Signat ' be the word that is used in setting forth the Oath that I made The Assignment of the Perjury ought to follow that form and the Word there ought to be Signat ' too being Signand ' I take that to be an Error L. C. J. Look that is not proper at this time as I told you at first but withal I do not think there is any great matter in what you say Mr. Att. Gen. Either I do not understand Mr. Oates what he means by the Objection or he will find himself much mistaken in it L. C. J. Well well we have nothing to do with that now go on with the Cause Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury this is an Indictment against Titus Oates for Perjury which Indictment sets forth that Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove the Sixteenth of Dec. in the Thirtieth year of the late King at the Old Baily were indicted of High Treason for conspiring the Death of the King and that Ireland Pickering and Grove were tryed the 17th of Decemb. in that year and upon that Indictment Titus Oates was produced as a Witness on the behalf of the King against the said Ireland Pickering and Grove being sworn to give Evidence to the Jury that were Impanelled and sworn to try that Cause he did swear and give in evidence that there
I demand an answer to it upon the Oath he has taken L. C. J. And I tell you upon the Oath you have taken you are not bound to answer any such Question Oates Good my Lord let my Questions be answered L. C. J. No Sir they shall not How now do not think to put Irregularities upon us if you will behave your self as you ought to do and keep to that which is proper well and good Oates If your Lordship please I think this very proper for me L. C. J. What to ask such improper Questions as these are Oates Truly my Lord I think they are fit Questions to be asked L. C. J. But we are all of another opinion Oates My Lord I desire to know whether they are not set on by their Superiours to do this L. C. J. That is not a fair Question neither Oates Give me leave to make my defence my Lord I beseech you L. C. J. Ay in Gods name but I pray you then make it in a regular and becoming way for I know of no Priviledge you have more than other People to use Witnesses as you do Oates My Lord I look upon my self as hardly used in the case L. C. J. I care not what you look upon your self to be if you will ask Questions ask none but fair Questions and while you keep within Bounds you shall be heard as well as any of the Kings Subjects but if you will break out into Questions that are impertinent extravagant or ensnaring we must correct you and keep you within proper Limits Oates Then my Lord I ask whether he was not a Witness at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and at Langhorn's Tryal L. C J. Ay that is a proper Question what say you to 't Sir Mr. Hilsley I was so Sir Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Credit he received at those Tryals L. C. J. What a Question is that to ask any man Oates My Lord I think it is a fair Question L. C. J. No indeed it is not a fair one at all Oates My Lord I desire to know what induces him to come here as a Witness now since it appears that now he comes to give an Evidence that he gave six years ago and was not believed Mr. Hilsley My Lord I am subpoena'd L. C. J. He has given you an answer to the Question though I think it was an idle Question and not at all to the purpose Oates It may be he may have some particular reason to induce him to it now L. C. J. Well he tells you he came because he was subpoena'd and that is sufficient He is not compellable to be a Witness unless he be subpoena'd but if a man will come without a Subpoena and give Evidence in a Cause that is no objection to his testimony Oates My Lord I desire to know of him whether he is to have any Reward for swearing in this Cause L. C. J. What say you Sir are you to have any Reward for your Evidence Mr. Hilsley None at all as I know of my Lord I assure you Mr. Just Withens He is not paid for his Evidence Mr. Oates Oates If he be or be not I cannot tell nor do I know who ever was paid for it L. C. J. Have you any more Questions to ask him Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what was the occasion of his coming away from St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I had finished my Studies Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him if he never heard of any Consult of the Jesuites here in England in the Month of April 78. and from whom he did hear of it Mr. Hilsley I did hear of it among the rest of the Students of the Colledge L. C. J. What did you hear of Mr. Hilsley I did hear of a Consult of ahe Fathers in April 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Yes there was but not such an one as Mr. Oates speaks of nor was he at it Mr. J. Holloway For what was that Consult I pray you Mr. Hilsley It was nothing but a Triennial Congregation about the Affairs of the Society L. C. J. What were they to do there Mr. Hilsley My Lord I was informed among them there that it was only what they used to have once in 3 years for ordinary Affairs Oates My Lord he pretends to tell when I came thither I desire to know of him from what time it was he saw me there and how often Mr. Hilsley Generally every day as near as I can remember I think Mr. Oates you and I Mr. Oates went to School in the same place Oates Pray how many days was I absent from thence in that time you were there Mr. Hilsley You were there generally as often as I I do not know whether ever you mist a day or no. Oates Pray my Lord will you ask this Gentleman one question more whether he can particularly tell that he did see me every day at St. Omers For 't is not enough for him to swear that he saw me there but he ought to give an account how he comes to know it by some particular Circumstances L. C. J. He has given you several Circumstances of his Knowledge for he says he was there all the while from your coming till 23d of April New Stile that he came for England he says he was a Scholar in the same Form and Class with you and because he does not remember himself to have been absent he does not remember you to be absent neither Mr. Att. Gen. And he swears particularly to the very time he came over which was April 14th Old Stile Oates Well I have no more Questions to ask this Gentleman L. C. J. Then call another Mr. Soll. Gen. Cryer call Mr. John Dorrel who was sworn L. C. J. Look ye Mr. Attorney you did open things at the first for Methods sake by Periods of time the first was Hilsleys coming over the next was the meeting with Bournaby now pray observe that Method and call that Bournaby next Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we shall call him by and by but we have not done with this business about Hilsley we have some Witnesses that will give an Evidence to strengthen and back his Testimony Come Mr. Dorrel what have you to say to this matter Mr. Dorrel My Lord in April 1678. I came from Brussels to England where presently after I came I was with one Mr. Osbourn and my Mother and there was a Discourse between my Mother and him about Religion L. C. J. Where was that Mr. Dorrel It was here in England Mr. Att. Gen. Now tell the time when that was Mr. Dorrel As near as I can guess it was 15 or 16 of April Old Stile in the year 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Well Sir go on with your Story Mr. Dorrel My Mother was laughing at his Religion and telling him some ridiculous Stories and he replyed there are a great many that are so ignorant that are bred up in the Religion of the Church
of England that they are forced to be sent to the Colledges abroad to be taught even some of the Clergy of that Church and particulariz'd in one Sampson Lucy alias Oates that was a Scholar at that time at St. Omers as he was assured by a Gentleman that was newly come from thence My Mother is now sick or else she would have been here and would have testifyed the same I now do Mr. Soll. Gen. This Gentleman is a Protestant Mr. Oates Oates What is your Name Sir I pray Mr. Dorrel My Name is John Dorrel Sir Oates Were you never at St. Omers a Student there Mr. Dorrel I was there but before your time Doctor I had not the happiness to be there while you were there Oates I pray Sir what Religion are you of Mr. Dorrel I am a Papist now Oates I desire my Lord the court would be pleased to take notice of it he owns he was reconciled to the Church of Rome Mr. Dorrel Mr. Oates to satisfie you I went over when I was Child of 12. or 13. years old and so was bread in that perswasion L. C. J. Well well we all observe what he says Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Osbourn which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we call'd this Person only to this matter Pray Sir will you give the Court and the Jury an account what Discourse you had with Mr. Hilsley about Oates and pray Sir tell the time when it was Mr. Osbourn My Lord I went out of Town the 30th of April the year before the pretended Plot was discovered by Mr. Oates and I met with Mr. Hilsley two or three days before and enquiring of him about the Affairs of St. Omers he told me of a Minister of the Church of England that was come thither to be a Student there who went under the name of Sampson Lucy but his right Name was Oates I asked him what he pretended to did he intend to be of that order he told me he did believe that he would not be admitted for his Irregular and Childish Behaviour and that he had left him in the Colledge and this I afterwards in Discourse told to Madam Dorrel who is a Protestant and to my Mother who is since dead Mr. Att. Gen. Will Mr. Oates ask this Gentleman any Questions Oates I only ask him what Religion he is of L. C. J. What Religion are you of Sir Mr. Osbourn I am a Roman Catholick my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. Now my Lord we come to call Mr. Bournaby Pray swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Bournaby pray will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury of the time when you came from St. Omers to England and when you met with Mr. Hilsley Mr. Bournaby I met with Hilsley on the 18th of April Old Stile in the year 78. then I pursued my Journey the following day to St. Omers L. C. J. Where did you meet him Mr. Bournaby Between Cittenbourn and Canterbury and afterwards I pursued my Journey from Canterbury to Dover from thence to Callis and from thence to St. Omers I arrived at St. Omers the 21. of April Old Stile which was the first of May New Stile upon the Second of May Mr. Oates was in my Company I was walking in the Garden and he came into my Company L. C. J. When was it Mr. Bournaby The Second of May New Stile and the Third of May again I went into the Garden and there he was with me again and the Fifth of May I saw him again L. C. J. Where Mr. Bournaby In the Rhetorick Form L. C. J. But where in what place Mr. Bournaby At St. Omers L. C. J. You speak of your own Knowledge you are sure you saw him there at those Times Mr. Bournaby Yes in the Rhetorick School and in the Garden Mr. Att. Gen. What more do you know of him Mr. Bournaby I saw him again the 8th of May New Stile that is the 28th of April Old Stile I mean by New Stile that Stile which was used in the Place where I was then Mr. Att. Gen. How long was he there before he went away Mr. Bournaby I know he was there from the Second of May the day after I came thither to the 20th of June and then I went away or thereabouts L. C. J. Did you see him daily all that time Mr. Bournaby Yes from day to day he was not out of the House L. C. J. Were you a Scholar there with him Mr. Bournaby Yes I was L. C. J. What year was that Mr. Bournaby In the year 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oates may ask him what Questions he will Oates My Lord he says he went awaw I desire to know whither he did go Mr. Bournaby I went away the 20th of June from St. Omers it is no matter whither I went Oates I desire he may give an account what Religion he is of Mr. Bournaby I am a Roman Catholick Oates My Lord I desire to know whether he be not of that order L. C. J. That I will not ask him I 'le assure you Oates Truly my Lord I think it is a very hard matter for me to have Jesuites admitted as Witnesses in such a cause against me L. C. J. I have told you already you are not to ask any Questions of any Witnesses that may subject them to any Penalty or make them accuse themselves of any Crime Oates My Lord I humbly desire he would give an account whether he were not admitted into the Society L. C. J. I tell you he is not to be ask't that question Oates He has own'd before L. C. J. Do you take your advantage of it if you can prove it Oates Then my Lord I desire to ask him whether or no he did appear as a Witness at the Tryal of the 5 Jesuites Mr. Bournaby No my Lord I did not Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not summon'd to appear then Mr. Bournaby No I was not Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Reward he is to have for coming and giving this Evidence L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward for being a Witness in this Cause Mr. Bournaby None my Lord that I know of L. C. J. That was a proper Question to be asked and you have a fair Answer to it Oates Pray Mr. Bournaby by what name did you go at St. Omers Mr. Bournaby By the Name of Blunt Mr. Att. Gen. And what name did he go by there Mr. Bournaby Who Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oates Mr. Bournaby By the Name of Sampson Lucy Oates My Lord I desire you to ask him whether he did know of any consult that was to be held here in London in April 78. and by whom he knew it L. C. J. What say you Sir did you know of any Consult Mr. Bournaby No I neither heard of it nor knew any thing of it Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we shall go on to another Period of time and that is concerning Pool Swear
Mr. Pool which was done Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury whether you knew Mr. Bournaby at St. Omers Mr. Pool Yes I did Sir Mr. Soll. Gen. Do you know the time when he came to St. Omers Mr. Pool No I do not remember it Mr. Att. Gen. When did you come over from St. Omers Mr. Pool The 25th of April Mr. Att. Gen. What Stile Mr. Pool Old Stile Mr. Att. Gen. In what year Mr. Pool In the year 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know Mr. Oates at St. Omers Mr. Pool Yes I did know that Gentleman there Mr. Att. Gen. Was he at St. Omers that time you were there Mr. Pool Yes he was Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you leave him there when you came away Mr. Pool Yes I did leave him there when I came away Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray tell the Court some particular thing why you remember it and upon what account you came away Mr. Pool Upon the occasion of my Brothers Death I came over and I can tell several particulars of my Journey I came away upon the Thursday and I came to London upon the Sunday following Mr. Att. Gen. You are sure you left Mr. Oates there then Mr. Pool Yes I am sure I did leave Mr. Oates there when I came away and I came away thence the Fifth of May New Stile the Twenty Fifth of April Old Stile Mr. Soll. Gen. Pray how long did you know Mr. Oates there Mr. Pool I knew him there from Christmas before that L. C. J. You were of the Colledge were you not Mr. Pool Yes I was a Student there L. C. J. You are sure he was there all the while Mr. Pool I do not remember he was a day absent and if he had gone away particular notice would have been taken of it L. C. J. Did you see him there two or three days before you came away Mr. Pool I saw him that morning I came away L. C. J. And what time before Mr. Pool I saw him two or three days before that L. C. J. Can you name any particular days Mr. Pool I saw him the first of May and the Second of May and the fifth of May which was the 25th of April Old Stile and then I came away L. C. J. Are you sure you left him there then Mr. Pool I am sure I left him there I can swear it without any difficulty at all L. C. J. What do you ask him Mr. Oates Oates I desire to know what Religion he is of L. C. J. What Religion are you of Mr. Pool I am a Roman Catholick Oates I desire your Lordship would ask him whether he was a Witness at the Tryal of the 5 Jesuites or at Langhorn's Tryal Mr. Pool No I was never an Evidence before in my Life Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not admitted into the Sodality of the Virgin Mary L. C. J. No indeed I shall ask him no such Question Oates Pray my Lord let him answer it L. C. J. Prove what you can when it comes to your turn but ask him no entangling Questions Oates He has made himself liable to a Penalty by being in that Seminary L. C. J. I hope a Man may be at St. Omers and yet not be punished for it Mr. Oates Oates It is my defence to disable the Witnesses against me L. C. J. But they must not be askt what may make them accuse themselves Oates My Lord it is hard that the Witnesses shall not be made to answer my Questions L. C. J. Pray Sir be quiet we have told you often enough already you must not think to govern us it must not be allowed Oates My Lord I desire he may be askt then what Reward he has to come and swear in this Cause Mr. Pool My Lord I do not know that I am so much as to have my Charges born L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward Mr. Pool No my Lord that I know of Oates Pray my Lord I desire he may ask't what was the occasion of Mr. Hilsleys coming away from St. Omers Mr. Pool Indeed I did not examine into the occasion at all for I was never a man that medled or made on any side but lived quietly in the Colledge and minded my Studies Oates My Lord I desire your Lordship to ask him whether he did know of any Consult of the Jesuites in April 78. and from whom he knew it Mr. Pool I know not of any particular Consult I heard something in general of a Triennial Congregation but I cannot speak any thing of my own Knowledge Oates My Lord I desire to know of him if he can tell when I came to St. Omers L. C. J. Do you know when Oates came to St. Omers Mr. Pool About Christmas as near as I can remember it was the latter end of November Oates How much before or after Christmas was it Mr. Pool I cannot tell exactly Oates What year was it in Mr. Pool In the year 77. Oates I desire to know of him my Lord whether he saw me every day at St. Omers at dinner Mr. Pool I cannot say that ever I knew he was absent any one day never 3 days I think I may affirm but only when he was in the Infirmary Mr. Att. Gen. That 's the place where they go when they are Sick Oates Pray my Lord ask him by what name he went when he was there in the Colledge Mr. Pool By the name of Killingbeck Mr. Sol. Gen. By what name did he go by I pray you Mr. Pool By the name of Sampson Lucy Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr. Henry Thornton which was done Mr. Ait Gen. Mr. Thornton pray where were you in the year 78. Mr. Thornton At St. Omers my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there do you know him Mr. Thornton Yes I know him very well Mr. Att. Gen. When did he come thither Mr. Thornton He came there about Christmas 77. Mr. Att. Gen. How long did he continue there Mr. Thornton He staid there till St. John Baptist's Eve in June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Midsummer you mean Mr. Thornton Yes the Eve of St. John Baptist Mr. Att. Gen. What Stile Mr. Thornton New Stile Mr. Soll. Gen. Did you see him there all the while Mr. Thornton Yes I did see him every day I believe in the Refectory at Dinner time and at Night in the Dormitory where all the Collegians have their Beds I lay over against him every Night I saw him particularly upon the day of Hilsley's departure which was the 24th of April New Stile and I saw him the first of May New Stile upon the coming of Mr. Bournaby to the Colledge and particularly again I remember him there the 2d of May when my Schoolfellows exhibited an Action or Play Mr. Att. Gen. Was Mr. Oates there then Mr. Thornton Yes I saw him present at it and I know it by this particular Circumstance there was a scufflle between him and another
to be there in April and May 78 Mr. Beeston The latter end of April and the beginning of May I did Mr. Att. Gen. Tell the Court particularly how you remember it Mr. Beeston My Lord I saw him the first of May at St Omers where he played at Nine-pins and I laid a wager upon the same side that he did and lost my money as well as he L. C. J. Do you remember any other time Mr. Beeston I saw him the second of May by the same token that I met him in the Colledge that day when our School exhibited an Action in the Hall and I met him after Supper now in this Action I had both acted and sung and they came and congratulated me for my singing Mr. Oates said if I had paid for learning to sing I had been basely cheated and then in the morning I was chosen Reader in the Sodality the 25th of April or thereabouts for a fortnight and Mr. Oates by his own submission was admitted to Read only with this condition that if ever he were wanting I was to Read again but this I say I never supplied the place therefâ—re I am sure he did continue there all the while and if he had been out I must have been called upon to Read L. C. J. Were you in the Colledge all the time he was there Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord I was L. C. J. Did you miss him at any time Mr. Beestone No I never miss'd him L. C. J. Are you sure he was not away all that time Mr. Beeston I am sure as much as a man can be certain of one that is of the same family with himself nay I am as sure of it as that I was there my self L. C. J. Can you speak any thing particularly of his Reading Mr. Beeston My Lord I was to have Read if he was absent but I was never called upon to Read and therefore I may well conclude he was there all the while L. C. J. He gives a material Evidence Mr. Sol. Gen. Was Mr. Oates such a remarkable man that he must be miss'd Mr. Beeston He was very particular both for Age and that he had a particular Table to Eat at Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you remember any thing else Mr. Beeston I remember too that when Mr. Bournaby came first he was often with him the second third and fourth of May I saw him there with Mr. Bournaby and I took particular notice of the friendship between them which I thought strange between persons that I supposed never saw one another before L. C. J. Have you any Questions to ask this man Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I desire to ask this Gentleman what Religion he is of Mr. Beeston I am a Roman Catholick Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him when he went to St. Omers and when he came away thence and how long he was Resident there Mr. Beeston I know not exactly what year it was I came but I stayed the greatest part of seven years there Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Jesuits went from St. Omers to the Consult of April 78. Mr. Beeston There was some that past by I did not take much notice of them Oates Pray my Lord ask him who it was that informed him of that Consult Mr. Beeston I do not know who particularly I only heard of such a Rumour Mr. Att. Gen. Was it an extraordinary thing Mr. Beeston No It was but an ordinary thing as they used to have once in three years Oates You say you saw me every day there L. C. J. He says he believes he might because you were Reader in his stead and if you had been absent he must have been called upon to Read which he was not he says Oates Very well my Lord I desire you would ask him whether he does not remember such a thing as an eight days Exercise wherein those that perform the Exercise are separated from all company during that time Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord I do remember that he was once in that eight days Exercise and during the eight days I saw him walk in the Garden several times Oates Pray my Lord ask him if he were an Evidence at the Tryal of the Five Jesuits or Langhorn and whether he gave this Evidence long ago Mr. Beeston No I did not I was not there Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Rewards he is to have L. C. J. Are you to have any Reward for your Testimony Mr. Beeston Mr. Beeston No my Lord. Oates My Lord I desire to know of him how he comes to be pickt out among the rest of the Students there to come here and be an Evidence in this Cause Mr. Beeston My Lord I was subpoena'd by His Majesty if I knew any thing of this matter that I should come here and testifie my knowledge Oates Pray by what name did he go by at St. Omers Mr. Beeston By the name of Beeston as I do now Oates And is that his own name Mr. Beeston Yes my Lord. L. C. J. Pray go on Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Swear Clement Smith which was done Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray Sir were you at St. Omers in the year 77 and 78 Mr. Smith Yes I was Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Oates there at that time Mr. Smith Yes I was in the same Class with him Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when came he thither and how long did he stay there Mr. Smith He came a little before Christmas and stayed till June Mr. Att. Gen. Was he not absent at any time all that while Mr. Smith No he was not except one day Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Watton's business his going thither in January Mr. Smith He told me of it and that he design'd to ask the Rector leave to go L. C. J. Was he absent any other time till June Mr. Smith No my Lord for I will tell you I every day Dined with him eat a Collation with him in the Afternoon and Breakfast and Supp'd in the same Refectory during all that time except when he or I was in the Infirmary L. C. J. When ever he was absent he was in the Infirmary was he Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. L. C. J. Did not he miss his Breakfast at any time all that while Mr. Smith If he did we us'd to enquire after him Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when were you in the Infirmary Mr. Smith The 21th of April New Style I fell sick and I remained sick till May the 7th and was in the Infirmary and then he visited me almost daily or every other day in the Infirmary and on the 2d of May I saw him and one Mr. Bournaby together and on the day Mr. Poole departed which I take to be the fifth of May Mr. Oates came to me as soon as he was gone out of the House and told me of it and he did the same too that day that Mr. Hilsley went away which was the 24th of April New Style Mr. Att. Gen. Was
I must come to be called to an account for Perjury in my Testimony of that part of the Popish Plot with which the King and Kingdom four successive Parliaments all the Judges of the Land and three Juries were so well satisfied I shall therefore offer to your Lordship and the Juries consideration the unanimous Votes of three Houses of Commons I shall offer the Proceedings of the House of Lords that is the highest Judicature in the Kingdom I shall prove what I have open'd by the Testimony of several Noblemen that are here who will testifie this for me My Lord I shall prove that several attempts have been made to baffle this Testimony as that of the Murther of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey who took my Depositions the Contrivance of Paine Farewell and Thompson made in the year 81 or 82 I forget which I shall then produce Evidence that I was actually here in Town at the time in question and then upon the whole I shall submit it to your Lordship and the Jury But to prepare your Lordship and the Jury the better for my Evidence I would again urge the strangeness of this Prosecution and the hardship that is put upon me to be tryed for Perjury in an Evidence given six years ago and formerly very industriously though not succesfully endeavoured to be falsified by sixteen St. Omers Youths that were produced and examined before all the Judges in the Kingdom and that not only once at Whitebread's Trial but a second time at Langhorn's Trial in neither of which would the Jury believe them because of their Religion and Education and the persons under whom they were educated who were men of known Artifice Then my Lord I would this argue If that time my Evidence were true it must be true still for Truth is always the same and if it were then true and I can prove it to be true 't will be thought a hard thing without all doubt that this should be put upon me Then my Lord I would fain know from my Prosecutors Why this Indictment of Perjury has been deferred so long Why these Witnesses that come now to testifie this matter and could then have been brought did not come before to justifie at the Trials of these persons what they now say which might have sav'd their Lives if true and had been credited Then I shall offer to your Lordship what I desire You and the Jury would please to observe That though the King's Councel are now against me yet they are also against themselves for they were of Councel for the King in those Cases particularly Mr. Sollicitor at Langhorn's Trial Sir Robert Sawyer at Sir George Wakeman's Trial They were of Councel before for the truth of my Testimony they are now against it I only mention that and pass it over But this is not the first attempt that has been made to discredit the Testimony of the Popish Plot as I told you before Now can it be supposed that the love and desire of publick Justice can be the cause of this attempt to falsifie my Evidence after so many Trials in which it has been credited and confirmed Can any thing my Lord more plainly tend to destroy and subvert the methods of Justice to frighten all Witnesses from henceforth from ever appearing to discover any Conspiracies and does it not tend to expose and vilifie the known Understanding and Justice of the late King of ever Blessed Memory to arraign the Wisdom of His Privy-Council His Great and Noble Peers His Loyal Commons in three successive Parliaments His Twelve Judges and all those several Juries that were upon those Trials Had not those Juries sense had they not honesty had they no consciences And the Judges before whom those Conspirators were try'd were they men of no Justice nor Honour nor Integrity nor Conscience nor Understanding Shall those Juries be said to have drawn the innocent Blood of these men upon their own Heads and the Nation as if I were perjur'd it must be innocent Blood that was shed upon it L. C. J. No no that goes a great deal too far Mr. Oates The Jury have no share nor the Judges neither in that Blood which was shed by your Oath Mr. Justice Withens No That is your own most certainly and not theirs Oates But this I say makes it most plain The Evidence was then true and I hope I shall make it as evidently plain 't is as true now and I do not question but upon the Evidence I shall now give both Positive and Collateral the Jury will believe me and acquit me of this foul Accusation Pray my Lord be pleased to consider that when the Jury brought in Ireland guilty of the High-Treason of which he was accused and convicted him Pickering and Grove says my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was to them Gentlemen you have done like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is like very good Protestants and now much good may do them with their Thirty Thousand Masses as I shall prove he did say Then I insist in the second place That Whitebread's Conviction does reinforce the Conviction of Ireland because of the attempt by the St. Omers Witnesses to have overthrown my Evidence But since I am attaqu'd again in the same kind by the violence of the Popish Interest and by the malice of my Popish Adversaries I am contented to stand the Test with all my heart And then to conclude all I shall shew the Court That 't is in vain for the Popish Party to expect and think to wipe their mouths with Solomon's Whore and say they have done no wickedness No I question not but thousands of Protestants in this Kingdom are fully satisfied and convinced of the Truth of the Popish Plot all and every part of it Now my Lord if you please to give me leave to proceed on in my Evidence I shall beg that these Records of Conviction may be read which are my first Proof of the Consult and I shall then bring Witnesses viva voce and shall make it appear that what I did swear at those Trials was true L. C. J. Not to intetrupt you in your Defence or the method you will take for it I would put you upon that which is proper for you to apply your self to because the question now is not Whether there was a Consult or Congregation of the Jesuits here upon the 24th of April 78 but the question that toucheth you is Whether you were present at any such Consult here in London the 24th of April 78 These Gentlemen some of them do say there was a Consult and others that they heard of it and believe there was such an one because it was usual to have a Triennal Congregation for some particular purposes But the question is Whether you have sufficient proof to prove your self to be here on the 24th of April 78 at which time it is agreed of all hands there was a Consult Oates But will your
L. C. J. You must not ask questions in that manner It is properest for you to propose your questions to the Court and they will ask the Witnesses Oates Then I will not ask him but propose it to your Lordship L. C. J. Ay propose what questions you please and if they are fair I 'le ask them Oates Then my Lord I would ask Mr. Walker this question when 't was he met me with a disguise in what year and what month Mr. Walker My Lord I have been interrogated in former times upon this point six or seven years ago and I do confess I did see the man and met him between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields and truly my Lord I think I may say it was my unhappiness to meet with him for I have had a great deal of trouble by it since Subpoena upon Subpoena trouble after trouble that I am even weary of it for I am an old man but I do say I did meet him at that end of the Town between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields in a strange disguise he was just like a Vagrant a very Rascal and that 's true I believe my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know him before Mr. Walker Yes or I had not known him then L. C. J. When was this Mr. Walker My Lord I 'le tell you my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs when I was at the Old-Bayly asked me if I knew what time it was I saw him thus said I my Lord 't is almost a year and a half since I saw him and I being an old man little thought it worth the while to lay up the particular time in my Memory but I 'le cast about in my thoughts to make the best conjecture I can for now I will not be upon my Oath it being but conjecture L. C. J. But now you are upon your Oath remember that man Mr. Walker My Lord I am speaking what I said to the Court at that time L. C. J. Pray do not tell us an old tedious Story of the questions and answers in the Old-Bayly but mind what is said to you here my question is now what time you saw Oates disguised between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields as you say you did Mr. Walker My Lord I cannot prescribe the time but I 'le guess as near as I can with the best probability and that is upon this circumstance when I went forward into Leicester-fields in the Court before the House I saw the Elm-Trees budded forth as big as an Hazle-Nut so that I did conjecture by that Token it might be between Lady-day the latter end of April that was the time as near as I could guess L. C. J. In what year was that Mr. Walker I cannot very well tell what year it was L. C. J. Was it in 77 or 78. Mr. Walker Truly my Lord I never thought it worth so much taking notice of to fix the particular time in my memory Oates Whether was it that year the Plot was discovered or the Michaelmass following Mr. Walker I cannot tell when the Plot was discovered or whether it be found out yet or no Oates But was it the year before you were Examined Mr. Walker To aswer you Mr. Oates when it was exactly I cannot say truly I would give you the best satisfaction I could and do you as much right as I would do my self I think if that time when I was Examined were in 77 or 78 it was near a year and a quarter before I did see you L. C. J. Well what can you make of this Oates 'T is not to be supposed he is a very willing Witness but yet he says 't was a year and a quarter before the Trial in which he was Examined which must be in April 78. L. C. J. I would know this question of you were you present at the Old-Bayley when the Five Jesuits were Tried Mr. Walker I was there my Lord. L. C. J. Were you at any Trial but one Mr. Walker I was not Examin'd at any time but one L. C. J. Have you any more questions to ask him Mr. Walker My Lord Chief Justice that then was did ask me if I knew any of the Prisoners at the Bar and I look'd upon all of them and I said I knew not either of them Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not produc'd when the St. Omers Men were produc'd and gave his evidence as to my being in Town at that time L. C. J. He hears the Question let him answer it Mr. Walker I am not able to answer you because you put several Questions together but this I say I was never Examined but once though I have been Subpoena'd often to my great torment and trouble Oates Did you give Evidence at that Trial that you saw me in April 78 Mr. Walker I testified that I saw you and by such circumstances it must be about such a time as well as I could suggest but I could not nor cannot speak positively Oates Now my Lord I shall go on to another part of my Evidence and call some other Witnesses and first of all I come to Mr. Serjeant Maynard and I desire he may be sworn Which was done L. C. J. What do you ask my Brother Maynard Oates I call Mr. Serjeant Maynard to give an account of the Proceedings of the House of Commons upon my Discovery of the Popish Plot. L. C. J. We will not admit that to be any Evidence at all nor can it be by Law Oates My Lord Mr. Serjeant Maynard was one of the Committee of the House of Commons that managed the Impeachment and can give an account of the Evidence and Records that were produc'd at the Trial of the late Viscount Stafford Mr. Serj. Maynard I know nothing truly nor can remember any thing of it now L. C. J. He says he remembers nothing Mr. Serj. Maynard If Mr. Oates had told me before hand when he Subpoena'd me what time and what particular things he would have Examin'd me to probably if I was there I have Notes that I then took but I can never swear to my Memory for any Cause so long ago Oates My Lord I am very sorry Mr. Serjeant Maynard's Age should so impair his Memory L. C. J. I dare say you are not more sorry than he is for his Age. Oates Well my Lord I cannot help it Then I desire Mr. Blayney may be ak'd whether he has his Notes of my Lord Stafford's Trial. Mr. Blayney No my Lord I have them not here Mr. Oates by his Ticket of his Subpoena desir'd only the Notes of Ireland Whitebread and Langhorns Trial. L. C. J. But I must tell you Mr. Oates if those Notes were here they could be of no use to you without the Record of my Lord Stafford's Attainder if you ask any thing upon another Trial you must produce first the Record of that Trial and then you may examine to what was given in Evidence at the Trial. Oates My Lord it is
that he should E. of Berkley All I can testifie is but what I answered to the question which was asked me at my Lord Stafford's Trial. L. C. J. But that is not material now my Lord because the Record of that Trial is not here E. of Berkley The same thing is entered here particularly Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we desire it may be read again L. C. J. Read it again with all my Heart L. C. J. This is a particular Oath to a particular purpose and shall I help it by intendment that he was afterwards sworn to the general matter No I will not suppose any thing had happen'd afterwards that it should have been thought fit to prosecute Oates Could the Man have been Convicted of Perjury for this certainly he never could Mr. Soll. Gen. Well my Lord we submit it to you but we will now go on to prove that which Mr. Attorney opened that Oates did suborn these Witnesses to swear what they did swear you have had one part of the Evidence that was then given now we shall prove that Clay was sworn at Whitebreads Trial and what he did there testify about Oates being in Town Oates I own it he was sworn then Mr. Att. Gen. Do you own that you suborn'd him Oates No I think not Mr. Attorney Mr. Soll. Gen. Then we will prove that you did tamper with him and by threatnings prevail'd with him to swear for you Mr. Att. Gen. Nay we will prove that he was mistaken in what he did swear a whole Year Pray call Mr. Charles Howard Oates My Lord I desire I may have leave to ask the Court a question and I beg the Opinion of the Court in it whether a Popish Recusant Convicted may be a good Witness L. C. J. We are not bound to answer your question for we see no ground why you should ask it if you have any occasion to object against any Witness and can produce any Record against him then we will tell you more of our minds Oates Pray then let me ask you another question my Lord. L. C. J. Prethee do not trouble us with thy questions let them go on with their Evidence Oates My Lord I desire to know whether a Man confessing himself a Popish Priest L. C. J. We do not sit here to answer every idle question 't is nothing at all to the purpose When you ask a proper question we will answer it Oates Yes it is my Lord and you are of my Council in matter of Law L. C. J. I am not so Oates Yes my Lord the Court is always of Council for the Prisoner L. C. J. That were well indeed if we were bound to give advice in every case where a Man is Prosecuted at the Kings Suit indeed in those cases where a Man can have no Council allow'd him the Court is of Council for him but where he may have Council the Judges are not of Council for him Mr. J. Holloway Besides We are not here putting of Cases but trying of a Cause Mr. Soll. Gen. Here is Mr. Charles Howard swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we bring this Gentleman Mr. Charles Howard only to this part of our Evidence to prove that Mr. Clay was mistaken a whole Year mistook 78 for 77. L. C. J. But Mr. Sollicitor if you take this confused method we shall never be at an end and for my part I cannot make any thing of it it is impossible for me to retain these things in memorie so as to give any direction to the Jury if there be not a method used for do you think that it is possible for any Man to retain in his head a hundred things hudled up and down without any order Mr. Soll. Gen. We beg your Lordships patience but a little while and we shall have it in very good order Swear Higgins which was done L. C. J. Pray what do you ask him Mr. Att. Gen. The matter we examine him to is this for I would open to you the nature of our Evidence 1. He swore Smith into the Plot and then gave him a Certificate that he vvas an honest Man L. C. J. Is that Oates's hand M. Att. Gen. We shall prove it to be so L. C. J. You must first prove vvhat he swore of Smith Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord We desire that vve may read his Narrative L. C. J. But first prove it Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. It is upon Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. Was that delivered in upon Oath to the House of Lords or else vve shall be but vvhere vve vvere Mr. Att. Gen. For proof of that vve call my Lord Bridgewater L. C. J. Here he is swear my Lord which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Bridgewater do you remember the Narrative that Oates gave in to the House of Lords and vvas it upon Oath but first of all if you please I desire my Lord may see the Book whether any thing be there under his hand and then vvhether it be enter'd to be upon Oath and vvhether this be the Journal agreeing with the Paper deliver'd in L. C. J. This is a Narrative my Lord that he himself deliver'd in and I vvould ask my Lord Bridgewater this one question Was not this Journal compar'd vvith the Narrative given in upon Oath by Order of the Lords House E. Bridgewater Yes I must say I was one of the Committe appointed to take care of the Journal and here is my hand to it among other Lords and that is a Copy of what M. Oates did deliver in as his Narrative which was in inserted upon a report of the Committe into the Journal Book by Order of the Lords and we did examine the Narrative with the Book L. C. J. But what is all this to our purpose now do not mistake me my Lord Bridgwater I do not speak to you now but to Mr. Attorney What does this prove as to the matter in hand Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord Bridgwater did you see the Narrative brought in by Oates E. Bridgwater That Narrative was delivered to us by the Clerk of the Parliament L. C. J. But my Lord do you know that Narrative was given in upon Oath E. Bridgwater I know no other but that the Clerk of the Parliament brought it to us Mr. Att. Gen. Here is the Clerk of the Parliament will tell you that Oates was sworn to it L. C. J. Prove it if you can but hitherto I see nothing that looks like Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. Really my Lord I should take it to be as much Evidence as any that ever was offer'd in the World L. C. J. Pray Mr. Attorney let us Reason the Point a little suppose you bring an answer in Chancery except the man be sworn to it can you read his answer and yet I ever look'd upon an answer in Chancery as Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. In that case the Record proves it self and so it should here and therefore we desire
that he forswore himself Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord give me leave I must pursue my Masters Interest Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord it was ever Testimony allow'd to be given to detect a Subornation L. C. J. I am sure 't is not fit to be allow'd at any time If he did forswear himself in a Court of Record in my opinion he is not to be receiv'd as a Witness any more Mr. Sol. Gen. We do only make this use of him to prove that Oates did suborn him L. C. J. Pray call some other Witnesses if you have them to contradict him but do not offer to bring a man to swear that he did forswear himself before Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord we give Evidence here of a mans being produc'd by Oates to swear he was here in May 78. and he did make such an Oath now I hope with Submission my Lord it is Evidence to contradict that Oath if we can prove that he has confessed he was forsworn and mistaken in his Oath such Evidence perhaps will be of little value yet Evidence it is L. C. J. Make it what you will Mr. Sollicitor I think it is of no value at all nor to be admitted for the man to come and swear it himself prove what you can by others Mr. Soll. Gen. Surely my Lord this Confession of his to others is of less value than when we bring the Man himself to confess his fault that Man himself coming and owning the thing that he was mistaken with great sorrow for it sure is a good Evidence L. C. Justice Argue the matter as long as you will Mr. Sollicitor you will never convince me But that he that has once forsworn himself ought not to be a witness after that in any Case whatsoever If any man tell me otherwise till Dooms-day I cannot be convinc'd of it Mr. Soll. Gen. I go but to ask him this Question Whether or no what he swore were true L. C. Justice Mr. Sollicitor we are all of another Opinion that it is not Evidence fit to be given Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord I must submit it to you L. C. Justice I tell you Mr. Sollicitor if you should call him to know what it was he swore and it does appear by any Evidence or by his own Confession that it was false you ought not to believe what he says even in that matter And I think truly for examples sake it ought not by any means to be admitted Mr. Sollicitor My Lord I must submit it to you but then I humbly conceive it will be in very many Cases impossible to detect a Perjury or Subornation if the Party suborn'd cannot be admitted to be a witness L. C. Justice What good will the admitting him to be a witness do for either what he swore then or what he swears now is false and if he once swears false Can you say he is to be believed Mr. North. My Lord If a man come and swear L. C. Justice Look ye Sir you have our Opinion it has been always the Practice heretofore That when the Court have delivered their Opinion the Council should sit down and not dispute it any further Mr. Att. Gen. Then we will go about the Business of Clay and for that we will call Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice 'T is certainly against the Law to admit a man that has once forsworn himself to be a witness again in any Cause Mr. Att Gen. Swear Lawrence Davenport which was done 'Pray' give my Lord and the Jury an account how Clay came to be a witness and by whom he was wrought upon to be so Davenport May it please you my Lords and Gentlemen of the Jury Mr. Oates came to the Prison I being then a Prisoner at that time in the Gate-house at Westminster my self and having no other Employment I had the government and care of some of the Prisoners for a livelihood being in custody and at that time Mr. Oates as I said when old Clay was in Prison did come there to visit this Clay at several times and coming there to visit this Clay up stairs he went to his Chamber and desired to speak with him and I did desire your Worship Mr. Oates that you would go in to him and you did go into his Chamber and there these words you did speak to him before the Trial of the five Jesuits That if he did not swear what you put to him he should be prosecuted as a Priest which you did believe he would dye for L. C. Justice What is this man's name Mr. Att. Gen. Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice Did you hear him say so Davenport Yes my Lord upon my Oath I did hear him say so and Sir William Waller was with him and then he replied and said with a Proviso That you would give him his Gold and Silver that was taken from him being then a Prisoner under My keeping in the Gate-house and wanting his money if you would do that he said he had been a Rogue before and he could not say what he might do L. C. Justice Now make it appear that this Clay was sworn at the Trial. Davenport My Lord afterwards I was Keeper to him under the other Keeper and he had a Keeper to wait on him to Newgate Sessions at the Old Baily wherefore this Gentleman that is standing there Mr. Oates comes to us says he Do not you trouble your self about this Prisoner let him alone with me I 'll see him at home again and then the Jesuits there did take their Trials how it was I cannot tell for we could not come into the Court afterwards they went to the Fountain Tavern by Newgate to Dinner and Mr. Oates and he went to Dinner together we were below in the house waiting there till it was Night and still thinking that he should come down again but away went he home and left us in the lurch but indeed he did come home to the Prison very honestly and civilly because he was civilly guarded Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we 'll give you an account That the next morning after this Discourse betwixt Oates and Clay at the Gate-house this witness told it to another that was a Prisoner there then too Oates My Lord I would ask this man a Question Whether he had the sole keeping of Clay without any other Keeper with him Davenport There was no Keeper in the house but my self where he lay which was in Margaret's Lane not in the Prison but in the House Oates 'Pray' ask this Gentleman why he did not come in and testifie this Discourse he speaks of when Clay was a witness Davenport I was not by when he was sworn Oates Did he not know he was a witness L. C. Justice No he says he did not go into the Court with you he was not suffered to go in Davenport My Lord I am a poor Trandesman and know nothing what belongs to the Law Mr. Att. Gen. Come 'pray' swear this man Mr. which
the Jury Oates My Lord I have one thing more and that is A Copy of the Record out of the House of Lords It is in the Journal the twenty fifth of March seventy nine Mr. Walker My Lord I have not the Book here it was not spoke for Oates But do you know this hand Shewing him a Copy Mr. Walker Yes and I Believe it is a true Copy L. C. Justice Read it C. Crown Reads Tuesday the 25 of March 1679. Oates It is the last Clause in the Journal of that day C. Crown Reads Resolved Nemine Contradicente by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled That they do declare that they are fully satisfied by the Proofs they have heard That there now is and for divers years last past hath been a Horrid and Treasonable Plot and Conspirary contrived and carried on by those of the Popish Religion for the Murthering of his Majestie 's Sacred Person and for subverting the Protestant Religion and the Ancient and Established Government of this Kingdom Oates There is an Order to have that Vote printed and inserted before the Form of Prayer for the Fast 'Pray' Sir read the next Page Cl. Crown Reads Die Lunae 25. Oct. 1680. Vpon Report from the Lords Committees for examining matters relating to the discovery of the late Horrid Plot and Conspiracy That Captain Thomas Bickley hath lately vilified Dr. Titus Oates at a publick meeting at Chichester to the prejudice of his Majestie 's Evidence for the further discovery of the said Plot It is thereupon ordered by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled That the Said Thomas Bickley be and is hereby required to appear before their Lordships in the Lord Privy-Seals Lodgings near the house of Peers on Wednesday the third day of November next at eight of the Clock in the forenoon And it is further ordered that Alderman Exon and Alderman William Bury of Chichester aforesaid who were then present at the said meeting do likewise attend their Lordships at the time aforesaid to give Evidence of what they know concerning this Matter L. C. Justice What of all this we know hereupon Bickley was turned out of Commission and now Bickley is in again But it seems as you had credit with some then so you had not with others Well have you done now all Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. If Mr. Oates will Summ up his Evidence then I will do the same for the King when he has done L. C. Justice Well what say you Mr. Oates Oates Now my Lord here is an Indictment preferr'd against me for Perjury and the Evidence they have given for the King is this 1. They have call'd Mr. Foster and he tells you that I was produced at the Sessions-house in the Old Baily where he was summon'd as a Jury man upon the Trial of Ireland and he says That when I was produc'd at the Sessions in the Old Baily as a Witness and sworn if I do remember Mr. Foster aright in what he says he did hear me swear That there was a Treasonable Consult of Jesuits upon the twenty fourth of April 78. at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand and he does further say That I said those Jesuits afterwards came to a Resolution to kill the King and that they separated themselves into lesser Clubs the Resolution being drawn up by one Mico and that I carryed it from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and did see it signed My Lord I did ask Mr. Foster Whether I in my Evidence called it a Consult or a Traiterous Consult Now my Lord 't is true I did call it a Traiterous Consult it is as true that I did swear there was such a Consult and it is as true that I did swear this Consult did divide it self into lesser Companies it is as true that I did say I did carry that Resolution about from Chamber to Chamber and saw them sign that Resolution for murdering the King I do not mean of this King but of the late King My Lord the Evidence I think I nor no honest man shall need to be asham'd of I am not ashamed to own that I repeated this Evidence several times nor that I gave that Evidence upon Oath for it is Truth my Lord and nothing but Truth and I resolve by the Grace of God to stand by it and confirm it with my Blood if there be occasion My Lord to Convict me of Perjury they have brought a parcel of St. Omers Witnesses and these do swear that which they would have sworn six years ago but then the Court thought them not fit to be sworn not only because the Law will not allow them but because of their Religion that can dispense with false Oaths if it were for a good Cause and that was the Remark my Lord C. Justice Scroggs then made of it I shall not insist much upon what they have sworn for that I suppose your Lordship and the Jury do very well Remember But I have five things to Object to their Evidence and I hope the Jury will take notice of my Objections and make their Remarks upon them for since you have heard the Evidence that is brought against me it will be necessary for your Lordship to weigh the nature of these Witnesses and the Value that the several Juries of London and Middlesex had for them 'T is true there are several brought here now that never were Witnesses before there are indeed other men but of the same Religion and the same Interest and therefore their Testimony must be of the same Value I think your Lordship will allow me that Therefore I Begin with their Religion and that I take notice to be a great Objection to their Evidence as I am advis'd by those that are Learned in the Law And I must appeal to the Court whether a Papist in Case of Religion may be believed and received as a good Witness L. C. Justice We must nor hear any of these Idle Expressions Mr. Just Withens Do you think you are come here to preach Mr. Oates L. C. Justice I 'll tell you a Papist except you 'll prove any Legal Objection against him is as good a Witness in a Court of Record as any other Person whatsoever Oates But if your Lordships I 'll tell you my Lord Cook 's practice was not to admit them as good Witnesses L. C. Justice Do not tell me of my Lord Cook 's practice the Law is otherwise keep to the Business that you have here in hand the Question before us Whether you were forsworn in Ireland's Trial or not Answer that if you can but you must not run out into Clamors and idle Extravagances Oates My Lord I demand it as my Right to be heard what I have to except against the witnesses L. C Justice I tell you you shall be heard when you speak properly But are you to determine what is Right or what is Wrong Oates I am to
determine my own Right now in this point and I insist upon it and demand it L. C. Justice It may be presently you 'll tell us we have no right to judge of it Oates Yes my Lord you have but I hope I have right to urge it L. C. Justice Urge what you will that is to the purpose but then you must keep to the matter in hand and not make such idle Excursions as these are Oates I will keep to the matter my Lord if you will hear me L. C. Justice So you shall we 'll make you keep to the matter or we will not hear you at all Do not think your Impudence shall storm us out of our Senses Oates My Lord I do insist upon it that these mens Religion is an exception to their Testimony and a Papist is not a good witness in a Cause of Religion and I desire I may have leave to argue that as a Point of Law in my own defence L. C. Justice No Sir it is no point of Law at all Oates Then I appeal to all the hearers whether I have Justice done me L. C. Justice What 's that why you Impudent Fellow do you know where you are you are in a Court of Justice and must appeal to none but the Court and the Jury Oates I do appeal to the hearers L. C. Justice Take him away there if you will not behave your self as you ought I can assure you the Court will do what they ought to do and stop your mouth Oates What you please my Lord I must make my own defence as well as I can L. C. Justice You are here in Judgment before us and are to appeal to us we 'll suffer none of your Common-wealth appeals to your Mobile keep within the Bounds of Decency and say what you can for your self Oates My Lord this I move to the Court as one of my Objections to this Evidence given against me That their Religion makes them no good witnesses especially in this Cause L. C. Justice I tell you that is nothing to the purpose what their Religion is Mr. Just. Holloway Mr. Oates we come not here to dispute Points of Religion we come to try a bare matter of Fact whether you are perjured or no. L. C. Justice I tell you a Papist is a good witness without a Legal Exception Mr. Just Withens 'Pray' Mr. Oates is not a Papist as good a witness as a Dissenter Oates My Lord Cook would not admit a Papist to be a good witness in any Cause Mr. Just Withens How not in a Cause of Meum and Tuum Oates No my Lord not in any Cause between Party and Party L. C. Justice Where is that Opinion Oates I 'll cite you the Case if you please my Lord. L. C. Justice 'Pray' let us hear it Oates It is in Bulstrod's Reports the Second Part 155. A Popish Recusant is not to be admitted a witness between Party and Party Mr. Just Withens May a Presbyterian be a good witness Mr. Oates Mr. Just Holloway Or would Mr. Colledge have been a good Witness Mr. Oates Oates I tell you this was my Lord Cook 's practice L. C. Justice You have our Opinion and be satisfied with it That Book says it was my Lord Cook 's practice and we think if that was his practice his practice was against Law Oates Then another thing I object to their Testimony is their Education L. C. Justice That 's no Objection at all neither Oates My Lord they are bred up in a Seminary against Law and for which their Friends are to be punished L. C. Justice So is every man living that 's bred a Dissenter bred up against Law Oates My Lord I have not offered any Dissenter as Evidence for me L. C. Justice No they are all no doubt of it very good People Good-wife Mayo and her Companions excellent Protestants without all question Oates My Lord I humbly offer a Statute to your Lordship And that is Law sure L. C. Justice Yes a Statute is Law What Statute is it Oates It is 27º of Eliz. Cap. 2. The Law says there L. C. Justice Come we will see what the Law says Read the Statute he speaks of Cl. Crown It is Intituled an Act against Jesuits Priests and other such like disobedient Persons Oates My Lord I desire That the Preamble of the Act may be read Cl. Crown Whereas divers Fersons called and professed Jesains Seminary Priests and other Priests which have been and from time to time are made in the Parts beyond the Seas by or according to the Order and Rites of the Romish Church have of late come and have been sent and daily do come and are sent into this Realm of England and others the Queen's Majestie 's Dominions L. C. Justice This is nothing to this Business before us at all Mr. Justice Withens Does this Statute say they are no good witnesses Oates They own themselves to be Educated at St. Omers and that is against this Law expresly L. C. Justice What then Do they own themselves to be in Orders Jesuits and Priests Then you might say somewhat to them upon this Law but do not spend our time in such Trifles Oates I do not spend your time in Trifles my Lord. It is my Defence L. C. Justice Mr Attorney do you go on for we will not sit here to spend our time for nothing Oates 'Pray' my Lord let me but shew this I only propose one Statute more to your Lordship's Consideration L. C. Justice You may propose to read the whole Statute Book Oates 'Pray' my Lord hear me out L. C. Justice Speak then to the Business in hand Oates It is the Statute made in 3d. King Charles the First Chap. 2. L. C. Justice It is nothing to the purpose Oates I am advised 't is very material for me L. C. Justice I tell you it is not and we 'll not let your importunity prevail upon us to spend our time for nothing There has been a great deal of time spent to no purpose already Oates Then if you will over rule it my Lord L. C. Justice We do over-rule it For it signifies nothing to this purpose Oates 'Pray' my Lord be pleased to give me leave to offer their Judgments in Cases of Conscience whereby they own they have Dispensations to swear Lies for the promoting of the Cause L. C. Justice That is no Evidence neither Oates This is very hard in such a Case as this L. C. Justice No It is not hard that what is no Evidence in Law should not be suffered to be given in Evidence Oates It is Evidence against the poor Dissenters my Lord. L. C. Justice Indeed Sir It is not Evidence against any one body in the World if you will take my word for it if you will not I cannot tell how to help it Oates Then I offer you one thing more my Lord and that is what was said and done in the Case of the Earl of Shaftsbury when