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cause_n	england_n	king_n	lord_n	4,602	5	4.1139	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A59485	Two speeches I. The Earl of Shaftsbury's speech in the House of Lords the 20th of October, 1675, II. The D. of Buckinghams speech in the House of Lords the 16th of November, 1675 : together with the protestation and reasons of several lords for the dissolution of this Parliament, entred in the lords journal the day the Parliament was prorogued, Nov. 22d., 1675.; Speech in the House of Lords the 20th of October 1675	Shaftesbury, Anthony Ashley Cooper, Earl of, 1621-1683.; Buckingham, George Villiers, Duke of, 1628-1687. Speech in the House of Lords the 16th of November 1675.	1675 (1675)	Wing S2907; Wing B5332; ESTC R13400	11,639	24

all the deliberation imaginable you declared your selves to become doubtful and you put your selves out of your own hands into that power that you have no reason to believe on your side in this Question My Lords I have all the duty imaginable to his Majesty and should withall submission give way to any thing that he should think of Importance to his affairs But in this Point it is to alter the constitution of the Government if you are ask't to lay this aside And there is no reason of can be an Argument to your Lordships to turn your selves out of that Interest you have in the constitution of the Government 't is not only your concern that you maintain your selves in 't but 't is the concern of the Poorest man in England that you keep your Station 'T is your Lordiships concern and that so highly that I will be bold to say the King can give none of you a requital or recompence for it what are empty Titles What is present Power or Riches and a great Estate wherein I have no firme and fixed property 'T is the constitution of the Government and Maintaining it that secures your Lordships and every man else in what he hath The Poorest Lord if the Birthright of the Peerage be maintained has a Fair Prospect before him for himself or his Posterity But the greatest Title with the greatest present Power and Riches is but a mean creature and maintains those absolute Monarchyes no otherwise then by servile low flatteries and upon uncertain terms My Lords 'T is not only your Interest but the Interest of the Nation that you Maintain your Rights for let the House of Commons and Gentry of England think what they please there is no Prince that ever governed without Nobility or an Army if you will not have one you must have t'other or the Monarchy cannot long support or keep it self from tumbling into a Democratical Republique Your Lordships and people have the same cause and the same Enemies My Lords would you be in favour with the King 'T is a very ill way to it to put your selves out of a future capacity to be considerable in his service I do not find in Story or in Modern Experience but that 't is better and a man is much more regarded that is in a capacity and opportunity to serve then he that hath wholly deprived himself of all for his Princes service And I therefore declare that I will serve my Prince as a Peer but will not destroy the Peerage to serve him My Lords I have heard of 20. foolish Modells and Expedients to secure the Justice of the Nation and yet to take this Right from your Lordships as the King by his Comm●● appointing Commoners to hear Appeals or that the twelve Iudges should be the persons or that persons should be appointed by Act of Parliament which are all not only to take away your Lordships just Right that ought not to be altred any more then any other part of the Government but are in themselves when well weighed Ridiculous I must deal freely with your Lordships these things could never have risen in mens minds but that there has been some kind of Provocation that has given the first rise of it Pray my Lords forgive me if on this occasion I put you in mind of Committee Dinners and the Scandal of it those Droves of Ladies that attended all Causes 't was come to that pass that men even Hired or Borrowed of their Friends handsom Sisters or Daughters to deliver their Petitions But yet for this I must say that your Judgments have been Sacred unless in one or two Causes Sir or Whitehootes the Booksellers and those we owe most to that Bench from whence we now apprehend most danger There is one thing I had almost forgot to speak to Which is the Conjuncture of time the Hinge upon which your reason of State turns and to that my Lords give me leave to say if this be not a time of Leisure for you to vindicate your Priviledges you must never expect one I could almost say that the Harmony good Agreement and Concord that is to be prayed for at most other times may be fatall to us now we owe the Peace of this last two years disingagement from the French interest to the two Houses differing from the Sense and Opinion of Whitehall so at this time the thing in the World this Nation hath most reason to apprehend is a General Peace which cannot now happen without very advantagious Terms to the French and Disadvantagious to the House of Austria We are the Kings great Counsellors and if so have Right to differ and give contrary Councels to these few are nearest about him I fear they would advance a General Peace I 'me sure I would advise against it and hinder it at this time by all the ways imaginable I heartily wish nothing from you may add weight and reputation to those Councels would assist the French No Money for Ships nor Preparation you can make nor Personal assurances your Prince can have can secure us from the French if they are at leisure he is grown the most Potent of us all at Sea He has Built 24. Ships this last year and has 30. more in number then we besides the advantage that our Ships are all out of Order and his so exquisitely provided for that every Ship has his particular Store-house 'T is incredible the Money he hath and is bestowing in making Harbors he makes nature it self give way to the vastness of his Expence And after all this shall a Prince so Wise so intent upon his affairs be thought to make all these preparations to Saile over Land and fall on the back of Hungary and Batter the Walls of Kaminit'z or is it possible he should oversee his Interest in seizing of Ireland a thing so feasible to him if he be master of the Seas as he certainly now is and which when attained gives him all the Southern Mediteranian East and West India Trade and renders him both Scituation and excellent Harbors perpetual Master of the Seas without Dispute My Lords to conclude this point I fear the Court of England is greatly mistaken in it and I do not wish them the reputation of the concurrance of the Kingdom And this out of the most sincere Loyalty to his Majesty and love to my Nation My Lords I have but one thing more to trouble you with and that peradventure is a consideration of the greatest weight and concern both to your Lordships and the whole Nation I have often seen in this House that the Arguments with strongest reason and most convincing to the Lay Lords in General have not had the same effect upon the Bishops Bench but that they have unanimously gone against us in matters that many of us have thought Essential and undoubted Rights And I consider that 't is not possible that Men of great Learning Piety and Reason as their Lordships

Two Speeches I. The Earl of Shaftsbury's Speech in the House of Lords the 20th of October 1675. II. The D. of Buckinghams Speech in the House of Lords the 16th of November 1675. Together with the Protestation and Reasons of several Lords for the Dissolution of this Parliament Entred in the Lords Journal the day the Parliament was Prorogued Nov. 22d 1675. AMSTERDAM Printed Anno Domini 1675. The Reader is desired before he reads this Book to correct these following Errata's which have escaped the Press through hast PAge 1. l. 17. for have r. hear p. 2. l. 20. for persecuted r. prosecuted p. 3. l. 12 r. of greatest dependance l. 18. r. Lords may think l. 26. for your r. our p. 4. l. 17. for quarrells r. Laws and p. 5. l. 9. for have they r. they have l. 17. r. your Iudicature l. 25. for tends r. leads l. 35. for raise r. pass p. 6. l. 2. r. and when l. 6. for out r. on l. 11. for worst r. right l. 30. r. declare p. 7. l. 9. for and r nor l. 16. r. those in Absolute Monarchies l. 17. r. servile and low l. 25. r. and the People l 37. for Common r. Commission p. 8. l. 14. r. for all this l. 15. cross out Sir Ier. Whitchcot and the Book-sellers l. 17. for your r. our l. 24. r. and the disingagement p. 9. l. 1. for your r. our l. 17. r. by Scituation p. 13. l 22. for Natino r. Notion p. 16. l. 16. for Ld. Mahum r. Ld. Mohun The Earl of Shaftsburys Speech in the House of Lords upon the Debate of appointing a day for the hearing Dr. Shirleys Cause the 20th of October 1675. My Lords OUr All is at Stake and therefore You must give me leave to speak freely before We part with it My Lord Bishop of Salisbury is of Opinion that we should rather appoint a day to consider what to do upon the Petition then to appoint a day of hearing And my Lord Keeper for I may name them at a Committee of the whole House tell 's Us in very Eloquent and Studied Language That he will Propose Vs a way far less lyable to Exception and much less Offensive and Injurious to our own Priviledges then that of appointing a day of Heariug And I beseech Your Lordships did you not after all these fine Words expect some Admirable Proposal but it ended in this That Your Lordships should appoint a day nay a very long day to Consider what You would do in it And my Lord hath undertaken to convince you that this is Your only Course by several undenyable Reasons the first of which is That 't is against your Iudicature to heare this Cause which is not proper before Vs nor ought to be relieved by Vs. To this my Lords give me leave to Answer that I did not expect from a man Professing the Law that after an Answer by Orders of the Court was put in and a day had been appointed for Hearing which by some Accident was set aside and the Plaintiffe moving for a second day to be assigned that ever without hearing Counsel on both sides the Court did enter into the Merits of the Cause And if your Lordships should do it here in a Cause attended with the Circumstances this is it would not only be an apparent Injustice but a plain Subterfuge to avoid a Point you durst not maintain But my Lords second Reason speaks the Matter more clearly for that is Because 't is a doubtful case whether the Commons have not Priviledge and therefore my Lord would have You To appoint a farther and a very long day to consider of it which in plain English is that Your Lordships should confess upon Your Books that you conceive it on second Thoughts a doubtful Case for so Your Appointing a day to Consider will do and that for no other Reason but because my Lord Keeper thinks it so which I hope will not be a Reason to prevail with Your Lordships since we cannot yet by experience tell that his Lordship is capable of thinking Your Lordships in the Right in any Matter against the Iudgement of the House of Commons 't is so hard a thing even for the ablest of men to change ill Habits But my Lords third Reason is the most Admirable of all which he Stiles Vnanswerable viz. That Your Lordships are all convinced in Your Consciences that this if prosecuted will cause a Breach I beseech Your Lordships consider whether this Argument thus applyed would not overthrow the Law of Nature and all the Laws of Right and Property in the World For 't is an Argument and a very good one that You should not stand or insist on Claims where You have not a clear Right or where the Question is not of Consequence and of Moment in a Matter that may produce a Dangerous Pernitious Breach between Relations Persons Bodies politick joyn'd in Interest and High Concerns together So on the other hand if the Obstinacy of the Party in the wrong shall be made an unanswerable Argument for the other Party to recede and give up his just Rights How long shall the People keep their Liberties or the Princes or Governours of the World their Prerogatives How long shall the Husband maintain his dominion or any man his Property from his Friend or his Neighbours Obstinacy But my Lords when I hear my Lord Keeper open so Eloquently the Fatal Consequences of a Breach I cannot forbear to fall into some admiration how it comes to pass That if the Consequences be so fatall the Kings Ministers in the House of Commons of which there are several that are of the Cabinet and have dayly resort to His Majesty and have the Direction and Trust of his Affaires I say that none of hese should press these Consequences there or give the least stop to the Carreer of that House in this Business but that all the Votes concerning this Affair nay even that very Vote That no Appeal from any Court of Equity is cognisable by the House of Lords should pass nemine contradicente And yet all the great Ministers with us here the Bishops and other Lords of dependance on the Court contend this point as if it were pro Aris focis I hear His Majesty in Scotland hath been pleased to declare against Appeals in Parliament I cannot much blame the Court if they think the Lord Keeper and the Iudges being of the Kings Naming and in His Power to change that the Justice of the Nation is safe enough and I my Lord think so too during this Kings time though I hear Scotland not without reason complain already Yet how future Princes may use this Power and how Iudges may be made not men of Ability or Integrity but men of Relation and Dependance and who will do what they are commanded and all mens Causes come to be Judged and Estates disposed on as Great Men at Court please My Lords the Constitution of your

Government hath provided better for Us and I can never believe so Wise a Body as the House of Commons will prove that Foolish woman which plucks down her House with her hands My Lords I must presume in the next place to say somthing to what was offered by my Lord Bishop of Salsburye a man of Great Learning and Abilities and always versed in a stronger and closer way of Reasoning then the Business of that Noble Lord I answered before did accustome him too and that Reverend Prelate hath stated the Matter very sair upon two Heads The first whether the hearing of Causes and Appeals and especially in this Point where the Members have priviledge be so Material to us that it ought not to give way to the Reason of State of greater Affairs that pressed us at the time The second was If this Business be of that Moment yet whether the appointing a day to consider of this Petition would prove of that consequence and prejudice to your Cause My Lords to these give me leave in the first place to say that this Matter is no less then Your whole Iudicature and Your Iudicature is the life and soul of the Dignity of the Peerage of England you will quickly grow burdensome if you grow useless you have now the greatest and most useful end of Parliament principally in you which is not to make new Laws but to redress Grievances and to Maintain the Old Land-Marks The House of Commons Business is to complain Your Lordships to redress not only the Complaints from them that are the Eyes of the Nation but all other particular persons that address to You. A Land may Groan under a Multitude of Quarrels I believe Ours does and when Laws grow so multiplyed they prove oftner Snares then Directions and Security to the People I look upon it as the ignorance and weakness of the latter Age if not worse the effect of the Designes of ill men that it is grown a general opinion that where there is not a particular direction in some Act of Parliament the Law is defective as if the Common Law had not provided much better Shorter and Plainer for the Peace and Quiet of the Nation then intricate long and perplexed Statutes do which has made Work for the Lawyers given power to the Iudges lessened Your Lordships Power and in a good measure unhinged the security of the People My Lord Bishop tells You That Your whole Iudicature is not in question but only the priviledge of the House of Commons of their Members not appearing at Your Barr My Lords were it not no more yet that for Justice and the Peoples sake You ought not to part with How far a Priviledge of a House of Commons their Servants and those they own doth extend Westminster Hall may with Griefe tell Your Lordships And the same Priviledge of their Members being not sued must be allowed by Your Lordships as well and what a failer of Justice this would prove whilst they are Lords for life and you for Inheritance let the World Judge for my part I am willing to come to Conference when ever the Dispute shall begin again and dare undertake to your Lordships that they have neither President Reason nor any Justifiable pretence to show against us and therefore my Lords if you part with this undoubted Right meerly for the asking where will the asking stop And my Lords we are sure it doth not stop here for have they already nemine Contradicente Voted against Your Lordships power of Appeals from any Court of Equity so that you may plainly see where this Caution and reason of State means to stop not one jot short of laying your whole Judicature aside for the same reason of passing the Kings Money of not interrupting good Laws or what ever else must of ncessity avoid all Breach upon what score soever And your Lordships plainly see the Breach will be as well made upon Judicature in general as upon this so that when your Lordships have appointed a day a very long day or to consider whether Dr. Shirleys Cause be not too hot to handle And when you have done the same for Sir Nicholas Stanton whose Petition I here is coming in your Lordships must proceed to a Vote to lay all private Business aside for six Weeks for that Phrase of private Business hath obtained upon this last Age upon that which is your most publique Duty and Business namely the Administration of Justice And I can tell your Lordships besides the reason that tends to it that I have some intelligence of the designing such a Vote For on the second day of your sitting at the rising of the Lords House there came a Gentleman into the Lobby belonging to a very great Person and askt in great haste are the Lords up have they passed the Vote and being ask't what Vote He answered the Vote of no Private Business for six Weeks My Lords if this be your Business see where you are if ye are to Postpone our Judicature for fear of offending the House of Commons for six Weeks that they in the interim may passe the Money and other acceptable Bills that His Majesty thinks of Importance are so many wise men in the House of Commons to be laid asleep and to pass all these acceptable things when they have done to let us to be let loose upon them Will they not remember this next time there is want of Money 〈…〉 may not they rather be assured by those Ministers 〈◊〉 are amongst them and go on so unanimously with 〈…〉 that the King is on their side in this Controversie 〈…〉 when the publique Businesses are over our time shall be to short to make a Breach or vindicate our selves in the Matter And then I beg your Lordships where are you after you have asserted but the last Session your worst of Judicature so highly even in this Point and after the House of Commons had gone so high against you on the other hand as to post up their Declaration and Remonstrances on Westminster Hall Doors the very next Session after you postpone the very same Causes and not only those but all Judicatures whatever I beseech your Lordships will not this prove a fatal president and confession against your selves 'T is a Maxim and a rational one amongst Lawyers that one President where the Case hath been Contested is worth a 1000 where there hath been no Contest My Lords in saying this I humbly suppose I have given a sufficient answer to my Lord Bishops second Question Whether the appointing a day to consider what you will do with this Petition be of that consequence to your right for it is a plain confession that it is a doubtful Case and that infinitely stronger then if it were a new thing to you never heard of before For it is the very same Case and the very same thing desired in that Case that you formerly ordered and so strongly asserted so that upon time and

are should not have the same care of doing right and the same conviction what is right upon clear reason offered that other your Lordships have And therefore my Lords I must necessarily think we differ in principles And then 't is very easie to apprehend what is the clearest sense to men of my principle may not at all perswade or affect the Conscience of the best man of a different one I put your Lordships the case plainly as 't is now before us My principle is That the King is King by Law and by the same Law that tbe poor Man enjoys his Cottage and so it becomes the concern of every man in England that has but his liberty to maintain and defend to his utmost the King in all his Rights and Prerogatives My Principle is also That the Lords House and the Iudicature and Rights belonging to it are an Essential part of the Government and Established by the same Law The King governing and administring Justice by His House of Lords and advising with both His Houses of Parliament in all important matters is the Government I own am born under and am obliged to If ever there should happen in future ages which God forbid a King governing by an Army without his Parliament 't is a Government I own not am not obliged to nor was born under According to this Principle every honest man that holds it must endeavour equally to preserve the frame of the Government in all the parts of it and cannot satisfie his Conscience to give up the Lords House for the Service of the Crown or to take away the just rights and priviledges of the House of Commons to please the Lords But there is another Principle got into the World my Lords that hath not been long there for Arch-Bishop Land was the first Author that I remember of it And I cannot find that the Jesuites or indeed the Popish Clergy hath ever own'd it but some of the Episcopal Clergy of our British Isles and 't is withal as 't is new so the most dangerous destructive Doctrine to our Government and Law that ever was 'T is the first of the Cannons published by the Convocation 1640. That Monarchy is of Divine Right This Doctrine was then preached up and maintained by Sibthorp Manwaring and others and of later years by a Book published by Dr. Sanderson Bishop of Lincoln under the name of Arch-Bishop Vsher and how much it is spread amongst our Dignified Clergy is very easily known We all agree That the King and His Government is to be obeyed for Conscience sake and that the Divine Precepts require not onely here but in all parts of the World Obedience to Lawful Governours But that this Family are our Kings and this particular frame of Government is our lawful Constitution and obliges us is owing onely to the particular Laws of our Country This Laudean Doctrine was the root that produced the Bill of Test last Session and some very perplexed Oaths that are of the same nature with that and yet imposed by several Acts of this Parliament In a word if this Doctrine be true our Magna Charta is of no force our Laws are but Rules amongst our selves during the Kings pleasure Monarchy if of Divine Right cannot be bounded or limited by humane Laws nay what 's more cannot bind it self and All our Claims of right by the Law or Constitution of the Government All the Jurisdiction and Priviledge of this House All the Rights and Priviledges of the House of Commons All the Properties and Liberties of the People are to give way not onely to the interest but the will and pleasure of the Crown And the best and worthyest of Men holding this principle must Vote to deliver up all we have not onely when reason of State and the separate Interest of the Crown require it but when the will and pleasure of the King is known would have it so For that must be to a man of that principle the onely rule and measure of Right and Justice Therefore my Lords you see how necessary it is that our Principles be known and how fatal to us all it is that this Principle should he suffered to spread any further My Lords to conclude your Lordships have seen of what consequence this matter is to you and that the appointing a day to consider is no less then declaring your selves doubtful upon second and deliberate thoughts that you put your selves out of your own hands into a more then a moral probability of haviug this Session made a president against you You see your Duty to your selves and the People and that 't is really not the interest of the House of Commons but may be the inclination of the Court that you loose the Power of Appeals but I beg our House may not be Felo de se but that your Lordships would take in this affair the onely course to preserve your selves and appoint a day this day 3 weeks for the hearing Dr. Shirloys Cause which is my humble motion FINIS The Duke of Buckinghams Speech in the House of Lords November 16. 1675. My Lords THere is a thing called Property whatever some men may think that the People of England are fondest of It is that they will never part with and it is that His Majesty in his Speech has promised to take particular care of This my Lords in my opinion can never be done without an Indulgence to all Protestant dissenters It is certainly a very uneasie kind of life to any man that has either Christian Charity Good Nature or Humanity to see his fellow Subjects daily abused divested of their Liberties and Birth-rights and miserably thrown out of their Possessions and Free-holds only because they cannot agree with others in some Opinions and Niceties of Religion which their Consciences will not give them leave to consent to and which even by the consent of those who would impose them are no way necessary to Salvation But my Lords besides this and all that may be said upon it in order to the improvement of our Trade and the increase of the Wealth Strength and Greatness of this Nation which with your leave I shall presume to discourse of at some other time there is methinks in this Nation of persecution a very gross mistake both as to the point of Government and Religion There is so as to the point of Government because it makes every mans safety depend upon the wrong place not upon the Governors or mans living well towards the Civil Government established by Law but upon his being transported with Zeal for every opinion that 's held by those that have power in the Church that 's in fashion And I perceive it 's a mistake in Religion for that it is positively against the express Doctrine and Example of Iesus Christ Nay my Lords as to our Protestant Religion there is something yet worse for we Protestants maintain that none of these Opinions which Christians here