examinâ—â— Judgment given in the Court of Common-Pleas La. You deny not but by the Antient Law of England the Kings-Bench may examine the Judgment given in the Court of Common-Pleas Ph. 'T is true but why may not also the Court of Chancery do the same especially if the fault of the Judgment be against Equity and not against the Letter of the Law La. There is no necessity of that for the same Court may examine both the Letter and the Equity of the Statute Ph. You see by this that the Jurisdiction of Courts cannot easily be distinguished but by the King himself in his Parliament The Lawyers themselves cannot do it for you see what Contention there is between Courts as well as between particular Men. And whereas you say that Law of 4 Hen. 4. 23. is by that of 27 Eliz. cap. 8. taken away I do not find it so I find indeed a Diversity of opinion between the makers of the former and the latter Statute in the preamble of the latter and Conclusion of the former The Preamble of the latter is forasmuch as Erroneous Judgments given in the Court called the Kings-Bench are only to be reformed in the High Court of Parliament and the Conclusion of the former is that the contrary was Law in the times of the Kings Progenitors These are no parts of those Laws but Opinions only concerning the Antient Custom in that Case arising from the different Opinions of the Lawyers in those different times neither Commanding nor Forbidding any thing though of the Statutes themselves the one forbids that such Pleas be brought before the Parliament the other forbids it not But yet if after the Act of Hen. 4. such a Plea had been brought before the Parliament the Parliament might have Heard and Determin'd it For the Statute forbids not that nor can any Law have the force to hinder the Law of any Jurisdiction whatsoever they please to take upon them seeing it is a Court of the King and of all the People together both Lords and Commons La. Though it be yet seeing the King as Sir Edw. Coke affirms 4 Inst. p. 71. hath committed all his power Judicial some to one Court and some to another so as if any Man would render himself to the Judgment of the King in such case where the King hath committed all his power Judicial to others such a render should be to no effect And p. 73. he saith farther That in this Court the Kings of this Realm have sitten on the High Bench and the Judges of that Court on the Lower Bench at his feet but Judicature belongeth only to the Judges of that Court and in his presence they answer all Motions Ph. I cannot believe that Sir Edw. Coke how much soever he desir'd to advance the authority of himself and other Justices of the Common-Law could mean that the King in the Kings-Bench sate as a Spectator only and might not have answered all motions which his Judges answer'd if he had seen cause for it For he knew that the King was Supream Judge then in all causes Temporal and is now in all Causes both Temporal and Ecclesiastical and that there is an exceeding great penalty ordained by the Laws for them that shall deny it But Sir Edw. Coke as he had you see in many places before hath put a Fallacy upon himself by not distinguishing between Committing and Transferring He that Transferreth his power hath deprived himself of it but he that Committeth it to another to be Exercised in his name and under him is still in the Possession of the same power And therefore if a Man render himself that is to say Appealeth to the King from any Judge whatsoever the King may receive his Appeal and it shall be effectual La. Besides these 2 Courts the Kings-Bench for Pleas of the Crown and the Court of Common-Pleas for Causes Civil according to the Common-Law of England there is another Court of Justice that hath Jurisdiction in Causes both Civil and Criminal and is as Antient a Court at least as the Court of Common Pleas and this is the Court of the Lord Admiral but the proceedings therein are according to the Laws of the Roman Empire and the Causes to be determin'd there are such as arise upon the Marine Sea For so it is ordain'd by divers Statutes and confirm'd by many Precedents Ph. As for the Statutes they are always Law and Reason also for they are made by the Assent of all the Kingdom but Precedents are Judgments one contrary to another I mean divers Men in divers Ages upon the same case give divers Judgments Therefore I will ask your Opinion once more concerning any Judgments besides those of the King as to their validity in Law But what is the difference between the proceedings of the Court of Admiralty and the Court of Common-Law La. One is that the Court of Admiralty proceedeth by two Witnesses without any either Grand-Jury to Indict or Petty to Convict and the Judge giveth Sentence according to the Laws Imperial which of old time were in force in all this part of Europe and now are Laws not by the Will of any other Emperor or Forraign Power but by the Will of the Kings of England that have given them force in their own Dominions the reason whereof seems to be that the causes that arise at Sea are very often between us and People of other Nations such as are Governed for the most part by the self same laws Imperial Ph. How can it precisely enough be determin'd at Sea especially near the mouth of a very great River whether it be upon the Sea or within the Land For the Rivers also are as well as their Banks within or a part of one Country or other La. Truly the Question is difficult and there have been many Suits about it wherein the Question has been whose Jurisdiction it is in Ph. Nor do I see how it can be decided but by the King himself in case it be not declar'd in the Lord Admirals Letters Patents La. But though there be in the Letters Patents a power given to hold Plea in some certain cases to any of the Statutes concerning the Admiralty the Justices of the Common-Law may send a Prohibition to that Court to proceed in the Plea though it be with a non-obstante of any Statute Ph. Methinks that That should be against the Right of the Crown which cannot be taken from it by any Subject For that Argument of Sir Edw. Coke's that the King has given away all his Judicial Power is worth nothing because as I have said before he cannot give away the Essential Rights of his Crown and because by a non-obstante he declares he is not deceived in his Grant La. But you may see by the Precedents alledged by Sir Edw. Coke the contrary has been perpetually practised Ph. I see not that perpetually for who can tell but there may have been given other Judgments in such cases
little worth if they tended not to the preservation and improvement of Mens Lives seeing then without Humane Law all things would be Common and this Community a cause of Incroachment Envy Slaughter and continual War of one upon another the same Law of Reason Dictates to Mankind for their own preservation a distribution of Lands and Goods that each Man may know what is proper to him so as none other might pretend a right thereunto or disturb him in the use of the same This distribution is Justice and this properly is the same which we say is one owns by which you may see the great Necessity there was of Statute Laws for preservation of all Mankind It is also a Dictate of the Law of Reason that Statute Laws are a necessary means of the safety and well being of Man in the present World and are to be Obeyed by all Subjects as the Law of Reason ought to be Obeyed both by King and Subjects because it is the Law of God Ph. All this is very Rational but how can any Laws secure one Man from another When the greatest part of Men are so unreasonable and so partial to themselves as they are and the Laws of themselves are but a dead Letter which of it self is not able to compel a Man to do otherwise than himself pleaseth nor punish or hurt him when he hath done a mischief La. By the Laws I mean Laws living and Armed for you must suppose that a Nation that is subdued by War to an absolute submission of a Conqueror it may by the same Arm that compelled it to Submission be compelled to Obey his Laws Also if a Nation choose a Man or an Assembly of Men to Govern them by Laws it must furnish him also with Armed Men and Money and all things necessary to his Office or else his Laws will be of no force and the Nation remains as before it was in Confusion 'T is not therefore the word of the Law but the Power of a Man that has the strength of a Nation that makes the Laws effectual It was not Solon that made Athenian Laws though he devised them but the Supream Court of the People nor the Lawyers of Rome that made the Imperial Law in Justinian's time but Justinian himself Ph. We agree then in this that in England it is the King that makes the Laws whosoever Pens them and in this that the King cannot make his Laws effectual nor defend his People against their Enemies without a Power to Leavy Souldiers and consequently that he may Lawfully as oft as he shall really think it necessary to raise an Army which in some occasions be very great I say raise it and Money to Maintain it I doubt not but you will allow this to be according to the Law at least of Reason La. For my part I allow it But you have heard how in and before the late Troubles the People were of another mind Shall the King said they take from us what he please upon pretence of a necessity whereof he makes himself the Judg What worse Condition can we be in from an Enemy What can they take from us more than what they list Ph. The People Reason ill they do not know in what Condition we were in the time of the Conqueror when it was a shame to be an English-Man who if he grumbled at the base Offices he was put to by his Norman Masters received no other Answer but this Thou art but an English-Man nor can the People nor any Man that humors them in their Disobedience produce any Example of a King that ever rais'd any excessive Summ's either by himself or by the Consent of his Parliament but when they had great need thereof nor can shew any reason that might move any of them so to do The greatest Complaint by them made against the unthriftiness of their Kings was for the inriching now and then a Favourite which to the Wealth of the Kingdom was inconsiderable and the Complaint but Envy But in this point of raising Souldiers what is I pray you the Statute Law La. The last Statute concerning it is 13 Car. 2. c. 6. By which the Supream Government Command and disposing of the Militia of England is delivered to be and always to have been the Antient Right of the Kings of England But there is also in the same Act a Proviso that this shall not be Construed for a Declaration that the King may Transport his Subjects or compel them to march out of the Kingdom nor is it on the contrary declared to be unlawful Ph. Why is not that also determined La. I can imagine cause enough for it though I may be deceiv'd We love to have our King amongst us and not be Govern'd by Deputies either of our own or another Nation But this I verily believe that if a Forraign Enemy should either invade us or put himself in t a readiness to invade either England Ireland or Scotland no Parliament then sitting and the King send English Souldiers thither the Parliament would give him thanks for it The Subjects of those Kings who affect the Glory and imitate the Actions of Alexander the Great have not always the most comfortable lives nor do such Kings usually very long enjoy their Conquests They March to and fro perpetually as upon a Plank sustained only in the midst and when one end rises down goes the other Ph. 'T is well But where Souldiers in the Judgment of the Kings Conscience are indeed necessary as in an insurrection or Rebellion at home how shall the Kingdom be preserved without a considerable Army ready and in pay How shall Money be rais'd for this Army especially when the want of publick Treasure inviteth Neighbour Kings to incroach and unruly Subjects to Rebel La I cannot tell It is matter of Polity not of Law but I know that there be Statutes express whereby the King hath obliged himself never to Levy Money upon his Subjects without the consent of his Parliament One of which Statutes is 25 Ed. 1. c. 6. in these words We have granted for us and our Heirs as well to Arch-Bishops Bishops Abbots and other Folk of the Holy Church as also Earls Barons and to all the Commonalty of the Land that for no Business from henceforth we shall take such Aids Taxes or Prizes but by the common Consent of the Realm There is also another Statute of Ed. 1. in these words No Taxes or Aid shall be taken or Leveyed by us or our Heirs in our Realm without the good will and assent of the Arch-Bishops Bishops Earls Barons Knights Burgesses and other Freemen of the Land which Statutes have been since that time Confirmed by divers other Kings and lastly by the King that now Reigneth Ph. All this I know and am not satisfied I am one of the Common People and one of that almost infinite number of Men for whose welfare Kings and other Soveraigns were by God Ordain'd For
Enemies there is no end for the War will continue by a perpetual Subdivision and when it ends they will be in the same Estate they were before That they are often Abused by Men who to them seem wise when then their Wisdom is nothing else but Envy to those that are in Grace and in profitable Employments and that those Men do but abuse the Common People to their own ends that set up a private Mans Propriety against the publick Safety But say withal that the King is Subject to the Laws of God both Written and Unwritten and to no other and so was William the Conqueror whose Right it all Descended to our present King La. As to the Law of Reason which is Equity 't is sure enough there is but one Legislator which is God Ph. It followeth then that which you call the Common-Law Distinct from Statute-Law is nothing else but the Law of God La. In some sense it is but it is not Gospel but Natural Reason and Natural Equity Ph. Would you have every Man to every other Man alledge for Law his own particular Reason There is not amongst Men an Universal Reason agreed upon in any Nation besides the Reason of him that hath the Soveraign Power yet though his Reason be but the Reason of one Man yet it is set up to supply the place of that Universal Reason which is expounded to us by our Saviour in the Gospel and consequently our King is to us the Legislator both of Statute-Law and of Common-Law La. Yes I know that the Laws Spiritual which have been Law in this Kingdom since the Abolishing of Popery are the Kings Laws and those also that were made before for the Canons of the Church of Rome were no Laws neither here nor any where else without the Popes Temporal Dominions farther than Kings and States in their several Dominions respectively did make them so Ph. I grant that But you must grant also that those Spiritual Laws Legislators of the Spiritual Law and yet not all Kings and States make Laws by Consent of the Lords and Commons but our King here is so far bound to their Assents as he shall Judge Conducing to the Good and safety of his People for Example if the Lords and Commons should Advise him to restore those Laws Spiritual which in Queen Maries time were in Force I think the King were by the Law of Reason obliged without the help of any other Law of God to neglect such Advice La. I Grant you that the King is sole Legislator but with this Restriction that if he will not Consult with the Lords of Parliament and hear the Complaints and Informations of the Commons that are best acquainted with their own wants he sinneth against God though he cannot be Compell'd to any thing by his Subjects by Arms and Force Ph. We are Agreed upon that already since therefore the King is sole Legislator I think it also Reason he should be sole Supream Judge La. There is no doubt of that for otherwise there would be no Congruity of Judgments with the Laws I Grant also that he is the Supream Judge over all Persons and in all Causes Civil and Ecclesiastical within his own Dominions not only by Act of Parliament at this time but that he has ever been so by the Common-Law For the Judges of both the Benches have their Offices by the Kings Letters Patents and so as to Judicature have the Bishops Also the Lord Chancellour hath his Office by receiving from the King the Great Seal of England and to say all at once there is no Magistrate or Commissioner for Publick Business neither of Judicature nor Execution in State or Church in Peace or War but he is made so by Authority from the King Ph. 'T is true But perhaps you may â—â—ink otherwise when you Read such Acts of Parliament as say that the King shall â—ave Power and Authority to do this or that by Virtue of that Act as Eliz. c. 1. That your Highness your Heirs and Successors Kings or Queens of this Realm shall have â—â—ll Power and Authority by Virtue of this Act by Letters Patents under the Great Seal of England to Assign c. Was it not this Parliament that gave this Authority to the Queen La. For the Statute in this Clause is no more than as Sir Edw. Coke useth to speak an Affirmance of the Common-Law For she being Head of the Church of England might make Commissioners for the deâ—iding of Matters Ecclesiastical as freely â—s if she had been Pope who did you know pretend his Right from the Law of God Ph. We have hitherto spoken of Laws without considering any thing of the Naâ—ure and Essence of a Law and now unless we define the word Law we can go no â—arther without Ambiguity and Fallacy which will be but loss of time whereas on the contrary the Agreement upon our words will enlighten all we have to say â—hereafter La. I do not remember the Definition of Law in any Statute Ph. I think so For the Statutes were made by Authority and not drawn from any other Principles than the care of the safety of the People Statutes are not Philosophy as is the Common-Law and other disputable Arts but are Commands or Prohibitions which ought to be obeyed because Assented to by Submission made to the Conqueror here in England and to whosoever had the Soveraign Power in other Common wealths so that the Positive Laws of all Places are Statutes The Definition of Law was therefore unnecessary for the makers of Statutes though very necessary to them whose work it is to Teach the sence of the Law La. There is an Accurate Definition of a Law in Bracton Cited by Sir Edw. Coke Lex est sanctio justa jubens honesta prohibens contraria Ph. That is to say Law is a just Statute Commanding those things which are honest and Forbidding the contrary From whence it followeth that in all Cases it must be the Honesty or Dishonesty that makes the Command a Law whereas you know that but for the Law we could not as saith St. Paul have known what is sin therefore this Definition is no Ground at all for any farther Discourse of Law Besides you know the Rule of Honest and Dishonest refers to Honour and that it is Justice only and Injustice that the Law respecteth But that which I most except against in this Definition is that it supposes that a Statute made by the Soveraign Power of a Nation may be unjust There may indeed in a Statute Law made by Men be found Iniquity but not Injustice La. This is somewhat subtil I pray deal plainly what is the difference between Injustice and Iniquity Ph. I pray you tell me first what is the difference between a Court of Justice and a Court of Equity La. A Court of Justice is that which hath Cognizance of such Causes as are to be ended by the Possitive Laws of the Land and a
words in their Letters Patents Constituimus vos Justitiarium nostrum Capitalem ad Placita coram nobis tenenda durante beneplacito nostro That is to say we have made you our Chief-Justice to hold Pleas before our self during our pleasure But this Writ though it be shorter does not at all abridge the power they had by the former And for the Letters Patents for the Chief-Justice of the Common-Pleas they go thus Constituimus dilectum Fidelem c. Capitalem Justitiarium de Communi Banco Habendum c. quamdiu nobis placuerit cum vadiis foedis ab antiquo debitis consuetis Id est We have Constituted our Beloved and Faithful c. Chief-Justice of the Common-Bench To have c. during our pleasure with the ways and Fees thereunto heretofore due and usual Ph. I find in History that there have been in England always a Chancellour and a Chief-Justice of England but of a Court of Common-Pleas there is no mention before Magna Charta Common-Pleas there were ever both here and I think in all Nations for Common-Pleas and Civil-Pleas I take to be the same La. Before the Statute of Magna Charta Common-Pleas as Sir Edw. Coke granteth 2 Inst. p. 21. might have been holden in the Kings-Bench and that Court being removeable at the Kings will the Returns of Writs were Coram Nobis ubicunque fuerimus in Anglia whereby great trouble of Jurors ensued and great charges of the parties and delay of Justice and that for these causes it was Ordain'd that the Common-Pleas should not follow the King but be held in a place certain Ph. Here Sir Edw. Coke declares his Opinion that no Common-Plea can be holden in the Kings-Bench in that he says they might have been holden then And yet this doth not amount to any probable proof that there was any Court of Common-Pleas in England before Magna Charta For this Statute being to ease the Jurors and lessen the Charges of Parties and for the Expedition of Justice had been in Vain if there had been a Court of Common-Pleas then standing for such a Court was not necessarily to follow the King as was the Chancery and the Kings-Bench Besides unless the Kings-Bench wheresoever it was held Plea of civil Causes the Subject had not at all been eased by this Statute For supposing the King at York had not the Kings Subjects about London Jurors and parties as much trouble and charge to go to York as the People about York had before to go to London Therefore I can by no means believe otherwise then that the Erection of the Court of Common-Pleas was the effect of that Statute of Magna Charta Cap. 11. And before that time not existent though I think that for the multiplicity of Suits in a great Kingdom there was need of it La. Perhaps there was not so much need of it as you think For in those times the Laws for the most part were in setling rather than setled and the old Saxon Laws concerning Inheritances were then practised by which Laws speedy Justice was Executed by the Kings Writs in the Courts of Barons which were Landlords to the rest of the Freeholders and Suits of Barons in County-Courts and but few Suits in the Kings Courts but when Justice could not be had in those Inferior Courts but at this day there be more Suits in the Kings Courts than any one Court can dispatch Ph. Why should there be more Suits now than formerly For I believe this Kingdom was as well Peopled then as now La. Sir Edw. Coke 4 Inst. p. 76. assigneth for it six Causes 1. Peace 2. Plenty 3. The Dissolution of Religious Houses and dispersing of their Lands among so many several persons 4. The multitude of Informers 5. The number of Concealers 6. The multitude of Attorneys Ph. I see Sir Edw. Coke has no mind to lay any fault upon the Men of his own Profession and that he Assigns for Causes of the Mischiefs such things as would be Mischief and Wickedness to amend for if Peace and Plenty be the cause of this Evil it cannot be removed but by War and Beggery and the Quarrels arising about the Lands of Religious Persons cannot arise from the Lands but from the doubtfulness of the Laws And for Informers they were Authorised by Statutes to the Execution of which Statutes they are so necessary as that their number cannot be too great and if it be too great the fault is in the Law it self The number of Concealers are indeed a number of Couseners which the Law may easily Correct And lastly for the multitude of Attorneys it is the fault of them that have the power to admit or refuse them For my part I believe that Men at this day have better learn't the Art of Caviling against the words of a Statute than heretofore they had and thereby encourage themselves and others to undertake Suits upon little reason Also the variety and repugnancy of Judgments of Common-Law do oftentimes put Men to hope for Victory in causes whereof in reason they had no ground at all Also the ignorance of what is Equity in their own causes which Equity not one Man in a thousand ever Studied and the Lawyers themselves seek not for their Judgments in their own Breasts but in the precedents of former Judges as the Antient Judges sought the same not in their own Reason but in the Laws of the Empire Another and perhaps the greatest cause of multitude of Suits is this that for want of Registring of conveyances of Land which might easily be done in the Townships where the Lands ly a Purchase cannot easily be had which will not be litigious Lastly I believe the Coveteousness of Lawyers was not so great in Antient time which was full of trouble as they have been since in time of Peace wherein Men have leisure to study fraud and get employment from such Men as can encourage to Contention And how ample a Field they have to exercise this Mystery in is manifest from this that they have a power to Scan and Construe every word in a Statute Charter Feofment Lease or other Deed Evidence or Testimony But to return to the Jurisdiction of this Court of the Kings-Bench where as you say it hath power to correct and amend the Errors of all other Judges both in Process and in Judgments cannot the Judges of the Common-Pleas correct Error in Process in their own Courts without a Writ of Error from another Court La. Yes and there be many Statutes which Command them so to do Ph. When a Writ of Error is brought out of the Kings-Bench be it either Error in Process or in Law at whose Charge is it to be done La. At the Charge of the Clyent Ph. I see no reason for that for the Clyent is not in fault who never begins a Suit but by the advice of his Council Learned in the Law whom he pays for his Council given Is not
whatsoever was repugnant to those 4 General Councils For if they had I believe the Anabaptists of which there was great plenty in those times would one time or other have been question'd upon this Article of the Nicene Creed I believe one Baptism for the Remission of sins nor was the Commission it self for a long time after Registred that Men might in such uncertainty take heed and abstain for their better safety from speaking of Religion any thing at all But by what Law was this Heretick Legat burnt I grant he was an Arian and his Heresie contrary to the Determination of the Church of England in the Highest Points of Christianity but seeing there was no Statute-Law to burn him and no Penalty forbidden by what Law by what Authority was he burn't La. That this Legat was accused of Heresie was no fault of the High Commissioners but when he was accused it had been a fault in them not to have examin'd him or having examin'd him and found him an Arian not to have judged him so or not to have certified him so All this they did and this was all that belonged unto them they medled not with his Burning but left him to the Secular Power to do with him what they pleased Ph. Your Justification of the Commissioners is nothing to the Question the Question is by what Law he was burn't the Spiritual-Law gives no Sentence of Temporal Punishment and Sir Edw. Coke confesseth that he could not be burned and Burning forbidden by Statute-Law By what Law then was he burned La. By the Common-Law Ph. What 's that It is not Custom for before the time of Henry the 4th there was no such Custom in England for if there had yet those Laws that came after were but Confirmations of the Customs and therefore the Repealing of those Laws was a Repealing of the Custom For when King Ed. the 6th and Queen Eliz. abolished those Statutes they abolished all Pains and consequently Burning or else they had abolished nothing And if you will say he was burn't by the Law of Reason you must tell me how there can be Proportion between Doctrine and Burning there can be no Equality nor Majority nor Minority Assigned between them The Proportion that is between them is the Proportion of the Mischief which the Doctrine maketh to the Mischief to be Inflicted on the Doctor and this is to be measur'd only by him that hath the charge of Governing the People and consequently the Punishing of Offences can be determined by none but by the King and that if it extend to life or member with the Assent of Parliament La. He does not draw any Argument for it from Reason but alledgeth for it this Judgment executed upon Legat and a story out of Hollingshed and Stow But I know that neither History nor Precedent will pass with you for Law And though there be a Writ de haeretico comburendo in the Register as you may Read in Fitzherbert grounded upon the Statutes of 2 H. 4. cap. 15. and 2 H. 5. cap. 7. yet seeing those Statutes are void you will say the VVrit is also void Ph. Yes indeed will I. Besides this I understand not how that is true that he saith that the Diocesan hath Jurisdiction of Heresie and that so it was put in ure in all Queen Elizabeths Reign whereas by the Statute it is manifest that all Jurisdiction spiritual was given under the Queen to the High Commissioners how then could any one Diocesan have any part thereof without deputation from them which by their Letters Patents they could not grant nor was it reasonable they should For the Trust was not committed to the Bishops only but also to divers Lay-Persons who might have an Eye upon their Proceedings lest they should Incroach upon the power Temporal But at this day there is neither Statute nor any Law to Punish Doctrine but the ordinary Power Ecclesiastical and that according to the Canons of the Church of England only Authorized by the King the High Commission being long since abolished Therefore let us come now to such Causes Criminal as are not Capital Of Praemunire La. THe greatest Offence not Capital is that which is done against the Statute of Provisoes Ph. You have need to expound this La. This Crime is not unlike to that for which a Man is outlawed when he will not come in and submit himself to the Law saving that in Outlawries there is a long Process to precede it and he that is outlawed is put out of the Protection of the Law But for the Offence against the Statute of Provisors which is called Praemunire facias from the words in the Original VVrit if the Offender submit not himself to the Law within the space of 2 Months after notice he is presently an Outlaw And this Punishment if not Capital is equivalent to Capital For he lives secretly at the Mercy of those that know where he is and cannot without the like Peril to themselves but discover him And it has been much disputed before the time of Queen Elizabeth whether he might not be lawfully killed by any Man that would as one might kill a VVolf It is like the Punishment amongst the old Romans of being barred the use of Fire and VVater and like the great Excommunication in the Papacy when a Man might not eat or drink with the Offender without incurring the like Penalty Ph. Certainly the Offence for which this Punishment was first Ordained was some abominable Crime or of extraordinary Mischief La. So it was For the Pope you know from long before the Conquest incroached every day upon the Power Temporal VVhatsoever could be made to seem to be in ordine ad Spiritualia was in every Common-wealth claimed and haled to the Jurisdiction of the Pope And for that end in every Country he had his Court Ecclesiastical and there was scarce any cause Temporal which he could not by one shift or other hook into his Jurisdiction in such sort as to have it tryed in his own Courts at Rome or in France or in England it self By which means the Kings Laws were not regarded Judgments given in the Kings Courts were avoided and presentations to Bishopricks Abbies and other Benefices founded and endowed by the Kings and Nobility of England were bestowed by the Pope upon Strangers or such as with Money in their Purses could travel to Rome to provide themselves of such Benefices And suitably hereunto when there was a Question about a Tythe or a VVill though the point were meerly Temporal yet the Popes Court here would fetch them in or else one of the Parties would appeal to Rome Against these Injuries of the Roman Church and to maintain the Right and Dignity of the Crown of England Ed. 1. made a Statute concerning Provisors that is such as provide themselves with Benefices here from Rome for in the 25th year of his Reign he ordained in a full Parliament that the Right of Election of
Justice La. The Judgment for Felony is Ph. Heresie is before Felony in the Catalogue of the Pleas of the Crown La. He has omitted the Judgment against a Heretick because I think no Jury confin'd Heresie nor no Judge Temporal did ever pronounce Judgment upon it For the Statute of 2 H. 5. c. 7. was that the Bishop having convicted any Man of Heresie should deliver him to the Sheriff and that the Sheriff should believe the Bishop The Sheriff therefore was bound by the Statute of 2 H. 4. after he was delivered to him to burn him but that Statute being repeal'd the Sheriff could not burn him without a Writ de Heretico comburendo and therefore the Sheriff burnt Legat 9. king James by that Writ which was granted by the Judges of the Common-Law at that time and in that Writ the Judgment is expressed Ph. This is strange reasoning when Sir Edw. Coke knew and confessed that the Statutes upon which the Writ de Heretico comburendo was grounded were all repeal'd how could he think the Writ it self could be in force Or that the Statute which repealeth the Statutes for burning Hereticks was not made with an intent to forbid such burning It is manifest he understood not his Books of Common-Law For in the time of Hen. 4. and Hen. 5. the word of the Bishop was the Sheriff's warrant and there was need of no such Writ nor could he till the 25 Hen. 8. when those Statutes were repeal'd and a Writ made for that purpose and put into the Register which Writ Fitzherbert cites in the end of his natura brevium Again in the later end of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth was published a correct Register of Original and Judicial Writs and the Writ de Haeretico comburendo left out because that Statute of 25 H. 8. and all Statutes against Hereticks were repeal'd and burning forbidden And whereas he citeth for the granting of this Writ 9. Jac. the Lord Chief Justice the Lord Chief Baron and two Justices of the Common-pleas it is as to all but the Lord Chief against the Law for neither the Judges of Common-Pleas nor of the Exchequer can hold Pleas of the Crown without special Commission and if they cannot hold Plea they cannot condemn La. The Punishment for Felony is that the Felon be hang'd by the Neck till he be dead And to prove that it ought to be so he cites a Sentence from whence I know not Quod non licet Felonem pro Felonia decollare Ph. It is not indeed lawful for the Sheriff of his own Head to do it or to do otherwise than is commanded in the Judgment nor for the Judge to give any other Judgment than according to Statute-Law or the usage consented to by the King but this hinders not the King from altering his Law concerning Judgments if he see good cause La. The King may do so if he please And Sir Edw. Coke tells you how he altered particular Judgments in case of Felony and sheweth that Judgment being given upon a Lord in Parliament that he should be hang'd he was nevertheless beheaded and that another Lord had the like Judgment for another Felony and was not hang'd but beheaded and withal he shews you the inconveniency of such proceeding because saith he if hanging might be altered to beheading by the same reason it might be altered to burning stoning to Death c. Ph. Perhaps there might be inconveniency in it but 't is more than I see or he shews nor did there happen any inconveniency from the execution he citeth Besides he granteth that death being ultimum supplicium is a satisfaction to the Law But what is all this to the purpose when it belongeth not to consider such inconveniencies of Government but to the King and Parliament Or who from the authority of a deputed Judge can derive a power to censure the actions of a King that hath deputed him La. For the death of a Man by misfortune there is he saith no express Judgment nor for killing a Man in ones own defence but he saith that the Law hath in both Cases given judgment that he that so killeth a Man shall forfeit all his Goods and Chattels Debts and Duties Ph. If we consider what Sir Edw. Coke saith 1 Inst. Sect. 745. at the word Felony these Judgments are very favourable For there he saith that killing of a Man by Chance-medley or se defendendo is Felony His words are wherefore by the Law at this day under the word Felony in Commissions c. is included Petit Treason Murder Homicide burning of Houses Burglary Robbery Rape c. Chance-medley and se defendendo But if we consider only the intent of him that killeth a Man by misfortune or in his own defence the same judgments will be thought both cruel and sinful Judgments And how they can be Felony at this day cannot be understood unless there be a Statute to make them so For the Statute of 25 H. 3. cap. 25. The words whereof Murder from henceforth shall not be judged before our Justices where it is found Misfortune only but it shall take place in such as are slain by Felony and not otherwise make it manifest if they be Felonies they must also be Murders unless they have been made Felonies by some latter Statute La. There is no such latter Statute nor is it to say in Commission nor can a Commission or any thing but another Statute make a thing Felony that was not so before Ph. See what it is for a Man to distinguish Felony into several sorts before he understands the general name of Felony what it meaneth but that a Man for killing another Man by misfortune only without any evil purpose should forfeit all his Goods and Chartels Debts and Duties is a very hard Judgment unless perhaps they were to be given to the Kindred of the Man slain by way of amends for dammage But the Law is not that Is it the Common-Law which is the Law of Reason that justifies this Judgment or the Statute-Law It cannot be the Law of Reason if the Case be meer misfortune If a Man be upon his Apple-tree to gather his Apples and by ill fortune fall down and lighting on the Head of another Man kill him and by good fortune saves himself shall he for this mischance be punished with the forfeiture of his Goods to the King Does the Law of Reason warrant this He should you 'l say have look'd to his Feet that 's true but so should he that was under have look'd up to the Tree Therefore in this Case the Law of Reason as I think dictates that they ought each of them to bear his own misfortune La. In this Case I agree with you Ph. But this Case is the true Case of meer misfortune and a sufficient reprehension of the Opinion of Sir Edw. Coke La. But what if this had hapned to be done by one that had been stealing Apples upon the Tree
should have been Commended You see by this that many things are made Crimes and no Crimes which are not so in their own Nature but by Diversity of Law made upon Diversity of Opinion or of Interest by them which have Authority And yet those things whether good or evil will pass so with the Vulgar if they hear them often with odious terms recited for hainous Crimes in themselves as many of those Opinions which are in themselves Pious and Lawful were heretofore by the Popes Interest therein called Detestable Heresie Again some Controversies are of things done upon the Sea others of things done upon the Land There need by many Courts to the deciding of so many kinds of Controversies What order is there taken for their Distribution La. There be an extraordinary great number of Courts in England First there be the Kings Courts both for Law and Equity in matters Temporal which are the Chancery the Kings-Bench the Court of Common-Pleas and for the Kings Revenue the Court of the Exchequer and there be Subjects Courts by Priviledge as the Court in London and other priviledg'd places And there be other Courts of Subjects as the Courts of Landlords called the Court of Barons and the Courts of Sherifs Also the Spiritual Courts are the Kings Courts at this day though heretofore they were the Popes Courts And in the Kings Courts some have their Judicature by Office and some by Commission and some Authority to Hear and Determine and some only to Inquire and to Certifie into other Courts Now for the Distribution of what Pleas every Court may hold it is commonly held that all the Pleas of the Crown and of all Offences contrary to the Peace are to be holden in the Kings Bench or by Commissioners for Bracton saith Sciendum est quod si Actiones sunt Criminales in Curia Domini Regis debent determinari cum sit ibi poena Câ—rporalis infligenda hoc coram ipso Rege si tangat personam suam sicut Crimen Laesae Majestatis vel coram Justitiariis ad hoc specialiter assignatis That is to say That if the Plea be Criminal it ought to be determin'd in the Court of our Lord the King because there they have power to inflict Corporeal punishment and if the Crime be against his person as the Crime of Treason it ought to be determin'd before the King himself or if it be against a private person it ought to be determin'd by Justices Assigned that is to say before Commissioners It seems by this that heretofore Kings did hear and determine Pleas of Treason against themselves by their own Persons but it has been otherwise a long time and is now For it is now the Office of the Lord Steward of England in the Tryal of a Peer to hold that Plea by a Commission especially for the same In Causes concerning Meum and Tuum the King may sue either in the Kings-Bench or in the Court of Common Pleas as it appears by Fitzherbert in his Natura Brevium at the Writ of Escheat Ph. A King perhaps will not sit to determine of Causes of Treason against his Person lest he should seem to make himself Judge in his own Cause but that it shall be Judged by Judges of his own making can never be avoided which is also one as if he were Judge himself La. To the Kings-Bench also I think belongeth the Hearing and Determining of all manner of Breaches of the Peace whatsoever saving alwayes to the King that he may do the same when he pleaseth by Commissioners In the time of Henry the 3d and Edward the 1st when Bracton wrote the King did usually send down every seven years into the Country Commissioners called Justices Itinerant to Hear and Determine generally all Causes Temporal both Criminal and Civil whose places have been now a long time supplyed by the Justices of Assize with Commissions of the Peace of Oyer and Terminer and of Goal-delivery Ph. But why may the King only Sue in the Kings-Bench or Court of Common-Pleas which he will and no other Person may do the same La. There is no Statute to the contrary but it seemeth to be the Common-Law for Sir Edw. Coke 4 Inst. setteth down the Jurisdiction of the Kings-Bench which he says has First Jurisdiction in all Pleas of the Crown Secondly The Correcting of all manner of Errors of other Justices and Judges both of Judgments and Process except of the Court of Exchequer which he sayes is to this Court Proprium quarto modo Thirdly That it has power to Correct all Misdemeanours extrajudicial tending to the breach of the Peace or oppression of the Subjects or raising of Factions Controversies Debates or any other manner of Misgovernment Fourthly It may hold Plea by Writ out of the Chancery of all Trespasses done Vi Armis Fifthly It hath power to hold Plea by Bill for Debt Detinu Covenant Promise and all other personal Actions but of the Jurisdiction of the Kings-Bench in Actions real he says nothing save that if a Writ in a Real Action be abated by Judgment in the Court of Common-Pleas and that the Judgment be by a Writ of Error reversed in the Kings-Bench then the Kings-Bench may proceed upon the Writ Ph. But how is the Practice La. Real Actions are commonly decided as well in the Kings-Bench as in the Court of Common-Pleas Ph. When the Kng by Authority in Writing maketh a Lord-Chief-Justice of the Kings-Bench does he not set down what he makes him for La. Sir Edw Coke sets down the Letters Patents whereby of Antient time the Lord Chief-Justice was Constituted wherein is expressed to what end he hath his Office viz. Pro Conservatione nostra tranquilitatis Regni nostri ad Justitiam universis singulis de Regno nostro exhibendam Constituimus Dilectum Fidelem nostrum P. B. Justitiarium Angliae quamdiu nobis placuerit Capitalem c. That is to say for the preservation of our self and of the Peace of our Realm and for the doing of Justice to all and singular our Subjects we have Constituted our Beloved and Faithful P. B. during our pleasure Chief Justice of England c. Ph. Methinks 't is very plain by these Letters Patents that all Causes Temporal within the Kingdom except the Pleas that belong to the Exchequer should be decidable by this Lord-Chief-Justice For as for Causes Criminal and that concern the Peace it is granted him in these words for the Conservation of our self and peace of the Kingdom wherein are contained all Pleas Criminal and in the doing of Justice to all and singular the Kings Subjects are comprehended all Pleas Civil And as to the Court of Common-Pleas it is manifest it may hold all manner of Civil-Pleas except those of the Exchequer by Magna Charta Cap. 11. So that all original Writs concerning Civil-Pleas are returnable into either of the said Courts but how is the Lord-Chief-Justice made now La. By these
Kings of those times had not means enough and to spare if God were not their Enemy to defend their People against Forreign Enemies and also to compell them to keep the Peace amongst themselves Ph. And so had had the succeeding Kings if they had never given their rights away and their Subjects always kept their Oaths and promises In what manner proceeded those Ancient Saxons and other Nations of Germany especially the Northern parts to the making of their Laws La. Sir Edw. Coke out of divers Saxon Laws gathered and published in Saxon and Latine by Mr. Lambert inferreth that the Saxon Kings for the making of their Laws called together the Lords and Commons in such manner as is used at this day in England But by those Laws of the Saxons published by Mr. Lambert it appeareth that the Kings called together the Bishops and a great part of the wisest and discreetest Men of the Realm and made Laws by their advice Ph. I think so for there is no King in the World being of ripe years and sound mind that made any Law otherwise for it concerns them in their own interest to make such Laws as the people can endure and may keep them without impatience and live in strength and courage to defend their King and Countrey against their potent neighbours But how was it discerned and by whom was it determined who were those wisest and discreetest Men It is a hard matter to know who is wisest in our times We know well enough who chooseth a Knight of the Shire and what Towns are to send Burgesses to the Parliament therefore if it were determined also in those dayes who those wise Men should be then I confess that the Parliaments of the old Saxons and the Parliaments of England since are the same thing and Sir Edw. Coke is in the right Tell me therefore if you can when those Towns which now send Burgesses to the Parliament began to do so and upon what cause one Town had this priviledge and another Town though much more populous had not La. At what time began this custom I cannot tell but I am sure it is more ancient than the City of Salisbury because there come two Burgesses to Parliament for a place near to it called Old Sarum which as I Rid in sight of it if I should tell a stranger that knew not what the word Burgess meant he would think were a couple of Rabbets the place looketh so like a long Cony-Borough And yet a good Argument may be drawn from thence that the Townsmen of every Town were the Electors of their own Burgesses and Judges of their discretion and that the Law whether they be discreet or not will suppose them to be discreet till the contrary be apparent Therefore where it is said that the King called together the more discreet Men of his Realm it must be understood of such Elections as are now in use By which it is manifest that those great and general Moots assembled by the old Saxon Kings were of the same nature with the Parliaments assembled since the Conquest Ph. I think your reason is good For I cannot conceive how the King or any other but the inhabitants of the Boroughs themselves can take notice of the discretion or sufficiency of those they were to send to the Parliament And for the Antiquity of the Burgess-Towns since it is not mentioned in any History or certain Record now extant it is free for any Man to propound his conjecture You know that this Land was invaded by the Saxons at several times and conquered by pieces in several Wars so that there were in England many Kings at once and every of them had his Parliament and therefore according as there were more or fewer walled Towns within each Kings Dominion his Parliament had the more or fewer Burgesses But when all these lesser Kingdoms were joyned into one then to that one Parliament came Burgesses from all the Burroughs of England And this perhaps may be the reason why there be so many more such Burroughs in the West than in any other part of the Kingdom the West being more populous and also more obnoxious to invaders and for that cause having greater store of Towns Fortified This I think may be the original of that priviledge which some Towns have to send Burgesses to the Parliament and others have not La. The Conjecture is not improbable and for want of greater certainty may be allowed But seeing it is commonly receiv'd that for the making of a Law there ought to be had the assent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal whom do you account in the Parliaments of the old Saxons for Lords Temporal and whom for Lords Spiritual For the Book called The mode of holding Parliaments agreeth punctually with the manner of holding them at this day and was written as Sir Edw. Coke says in the time of the Saxons and before the Conquest Ph. Mr. Selden a greater Antiquary than Sir Edw. Coke in the last Edition of his Book of Titles of Honour says that that Book called the Mode c. was not written till about the time of Rich. 2. and seems to me to prove it But howsoever that be it is apparent by the Saxon Laws set forth by Mr. Lambert that there were always called to the Parliament certain great Persons called Aldermen alias Earls and so you have a House of Lords and a House of Commons Also you will find in the same place that after the Saxons had received the Faith of Christ those Bishops that were amongst them were always at the great Mootes in which they made their Laws Thus you have a perfect English Parliament saving that the name of Barons was not amongst them as being a French Title which came in with the Conqueror FINIS The King is the Supream Judge