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A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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justice of their cause are guilty before God os Treason Murder and Rebellion Dub. This censure is very severe and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth much desired a reformation of them and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament whereupon such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires and great expectations in the minds of men that are of short discourse that these poor inconsiderable persons were engaged against King and Country before they had well weighed That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions That God has no need of the sinner That we must not do evil that good may come thereon But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors and are ●ruly penitent abominating from their hearts all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises Firm. I much commend you for your Chari●y and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion acd are no● truly penitent my hearty prayers are that the Lord would be merciful unto them and bless them and shew them the light of his countenance My severe censure as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it was never intended against such but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter if they hid a fair opportunity Disobedience is a long step to Rebellion and is it not evident that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical then those that lived before the late warrs who though they were Non-conformists yet were they not Separatists Brownists as our present Non-conformists for the most part are some of them Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation and others smartly wri●ng against such Fanati●ks And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men they might see by a wonderful providence the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing ho● miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved against all their Treasonable attempts and brought to the Throne of his Fathers with the greatest honor most general expressions of love and rejoycing that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects and all this without the spil●ing of one drop of blood The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People to keep this sign●l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance not to ruine thēselves by Atheism Irreligion Profaneness or any enormous wickedness for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols upon wicked Kings and ungodly people as Sacred and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters that having a bad game dealt them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies as to the Covenant tho it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion yet being it was peccant in all the four causes the Efficient Formal Material and Final 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and ●igid Imposers of it for many of those were undon because they would not take it these because they would not Renounce it Nec lex est justior ulla Quam necis artifices arte perire sua 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart Who was first Author of that cruel Art I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius Eò immitior quia toleraverat And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant would when power was in their hands make use of the Law of Retaliation by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy should suffer by it without mercy Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them as to act by the Law of Retaliation of Spite and Revenge there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects who not for as 't was said before he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion that so we that have one Faith one Baptisme one Hope one Lord Iesus Christ one God the Father of all might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace which is both our duty and our interest if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State who le●ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments which are Gun-Powder Fire and Fagot Bloody Massacres to embrace their gross Superstition and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer Holy Meditation in Mortification of our Corruptions in duties of Piety towards Almighty God of Love Mercy and Charity one towards another And now Sir give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks and Bogs of Atheisme Infidelity Schisme and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd in whose Faith and Communion Thou O Father of Mercies Prince of Peace and God of all Consolation ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end and that I may so continue I beg your daily Prayers Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty to Pray one for another I shall not be wanting in the performance of it for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions and supplications at the Throne of Grace Blessed be the God of all power and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies I will ad no more but this that you be true to the Doctrine Worship Discipline of our Church as they are contain'd in the Articles Liturgie Canons and Rubricks of it hold not any truth in Unrighteousness let your practise shew to the World that you truly and heartily believe what you profess be honest just in your Dealings towards men Temperate and Sober towards your selfe serious and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God and whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are just Holy Lovely of good report Think on these things Practise these things make not the actions of men the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times humane Laws your rule to walk by but let the holy will and word of God be the adequate measure of your Life and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule and Peace and Mercy shalll be upon you as a true Israelite and one of Gods Peculiar People Amen FINIS ERRATA PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent p. 12. l. 10. for puting r. putting p. 21. for their r. there p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes p. 70 l. 26. ● some of the Church p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse is misplaced p. 113. ●r ● ●ot ●ankfulness p. 116.25 r. licence p. 119. l. 22. r. clear p. 121. l. 25. ● who was of p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled p. 132. l 29. r. that sit at the Stern p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end p. 136. l. ● r. throw away p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly ibid. 2● 1 suspension p. 1●5 l. ●3 r. suspensions † Dr. Moors Antidote and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g 395. R. B. C●●visse videas crescere non vides see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith Cen●●l 〈◊〉 S●ss 12. C●n. 1. Non imagini s●d numini sacrificamus Ae Mr Fowes History 2 Cor. 10.4 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 Rom. 13.1 Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 Deut. 6.13 Heb. 6.16 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 1 Cor. 1.14 Act. 2. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 9. ●po● 2.3 † 'T was not long since that some of the Presbyterian a●d I●pendent perswasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford such D●gnities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian why should they be esteemed so now
all eternity I shall prove by instancing in two of the most principal of them to wit the Sun in the Firmament and Man that dwells upon the face of the earth by which you may judge of the rest Dub. If you can prove that the Sun was not from eternity and that there was a first Man and consequently that mankind had a beginning I shall be abundantly satisfied it that wherein at present I much doubt viz. The worlds beginning Firm. Before I proceed to my arguments you must give me leave to lay down certain principles which no rational man will deny As for example 1. Quicquid fit fit ab alio whatsoever is made is made by somthing else for nothing can make it self 2. Omne ens est vel factum fi●itum dependens vel non factum infinitum independens every thing that is is either made finite independent or not made infinite independent 3. Vere i●finitum non habet principium aut finem that which is truly infinite has neither beginning not end 4. Non datur pro●essus in infinitum we cannot pro●eed in numbering from effects to causes or in any other way imaginable infinitely but we must come ●o some period o● end 5. Infinitum no● potest pertransiri 't is impossible to pass over or through that which is infinite so as to come to an end of it seeing what is infinite has no end 6. Infinito ●il potest addi to that which is infini●e nothing can be added to make it greater or more then 't was before that addition 7. Aeternitas est duratio ●nterminabilis sine partium successione in qua non datur prius posterius Eternity in its full and proper notion is a boundless duration without beginning or end without succession of parts as that one part of it should be either before or after another Dub. No rational man can deny any of these principles but I much wonder how so great a master of reason as Aristotle was should grant all or most of these and hold the eternity of the world and not be sensible of manifest contradictions Firm. That the Eternity of the world is a flat contradiction to many of these principles is evident that Aristotle was an acu●e Philosopher cannot be denied but it must be granted he was but a man and one that had only the light of corrupted nature to guide him he might therefore err not knowing the Scripture nor indeed the power of God and therefore he w●s ignorant how the world could have a beginning and seeing he very resolutely maintained that ex nihilo ni●il fit that whatsoever is made is made of somthing and that of somthing else and so we mu●● proceed in infinitum which he positively denied as absurd and impossible as well he might or else the world must be from all eternity proceeding from the first mover whom he conceived to be a necessary not a free Agent as heat from the fire or light from the sun and therefore eternally existing with that first mover or first cause however some have affirmed that in his Book de Mundo if that be his he retracted this error which has been a grand occasion of Atheism as F●rra upon Aquin●s ●ontra Gent. has truly observed Dub. And well he might if 't was built upon ●o sandy a foundation as to make God a necessary Agent for that was to render him inferiour to some of his Creatures which are free and voluntary But pray leave the Philosopher to his other errors and self-contradictions and make it appear if you can that he erred in asserting the eternity of the world Firm. That I hope to perform by principles granted by all sober men There is nothing in the world but either 't was made and had a beginning or 't was not made but was from all eternity now t is evident that there is no particular thing in this visible world which was not made The Sun Moon Stars were made Men Beasts and Plants were made For brevity sake I shall only instance in the Sun and in Man that they were made and had a beginning and consequently the Moon and Stars ●easts and Plants 1. That the Sun was made and had a beginning I thus demonstrate That which was not from all eternity but had a beginning was made and that by somthing else because nothing can make it self but the Sun was not from all eternity The Major is evident the Minor is thus confirmed If the Sun was from all eternity then either it moved from all eternity or it stood still if it moved from eternity then 't was eternally together in the East Meridian and West not first in the East then in the Meridian then in the West for in an eternal motion if any such motion were possible there can be no ●uccession no first or last prius or posterius because in such a motion there is neither beginning no● end Dub. 'T is evident by what you say that the Sun has not moved from eternity but how can you prove it did not stand still from eternity seing there are some that hold it alwaies stood still and never moved to this day but that the earth moves and the Sun not at all Firm. It hinders not the force of the Argument whether you hold the earth move and the Sun stands still or the contrary for 't is but shifting the Scene and puting the Earth instead of the Sun and the reason will be altogether the same Dub. I perceive it does not and therefore let me hear how you can prove that the Sun did not stand still from all eternity Firm. If the Sun stood still from eternity then there was an eternal night upon half the face or Globe of the earth and an eternal day up on the other half or at least many other gross absurditie● would follow No vicissitudes or changes of night and day summer and winter spring and autumn and consequently no productions or generations of Men Beasts Plants for that half of the earth which was deprived of the light and heat of the Sun which as a second cause gives life and vegetation to all the inferior Creatures that have life and growth could bring forth no vegetables or animals and the other half which was alwaies scorched with too much heat must of necess●ity be as barren by such heat as the other by extream cold and so we should have an eternal Sun to no purpose and then what will become of your eternal world Besides if the Sun stood still from eternity what caused it to move in time of it s own nature certainly it could never awake out of an eternal sleep if any thing else set it in motion then either it must be somthing that was moved by some superior Cause and this cause by another and so to an infinite number of causes which is absurd and impossible or else it must be the first mover and efficient cause of all things which is
enemies to Christianity acknowledg but besides their Testimony which being from adversaryes is v●●y cogent we have the tradition of the Catholick Church in all ages and most places of the world for 1600 years and upwards and as he that will go up by the side of the River will at last come to the head and fountain of it so he that shall ascend through the several Centuries of the Church will at last infallibly come to the head of it Christ Iesus to the place of his Nativity his Preaching and mighty Works that he did his bitter death and bloody passion or if he shall descend from Christ through the same Centuries down to this present time he may be farr more certain of the birth and life and works and sufferings of this our bessed Saviour of the writings of the Holy Evangelists and Apostles then that there have been such men in the world as Alexander the great Iulius Caesar Pompey Scipio Hannibal of the Warrs and noble Acheivements managed by them of William the Conquerour the Barons warrs and yet none but a fool or a mad man or one that has vowed to believe no farther then what he can see with his own eyes will doubt of these for that the tradition which conveys the same of these Worthies and their Actions down unto us is nothing so general as that of the Catholick Church neither is it at all practical but purely historical wherein we are not at all concerned whether or no the things reported of those noble warriours be true or false Dub. He that will not assent to what is delivered by universal Tradition takes away the use of one of the most noble Sciences in the world viz. History and wants rather a Cudgel then an Argu●ent to confute him T is evident by undeniable tradition that there were such persons as Christ and his Apostles that thay did great and marveilous things but how shall we know whether the works which they did were true miracles surely t is very difficult to know what is true and what is an imposture Firm. Thô at present this may appear difficult to you yet I hope I shall make this difference as manifest to you as is that which is betwixt Gold and drosse And here I will not trouble you with the niceties of the schoolemen betwixt mirum miraculum that a true miracle is arduum insoli●um supra vim naturae hard unusuall and above the powèr of nature that it differs from a ●alse one in the efficient material and formall cause which is ignotum per ignotius But to wave such subtilties a true miracle may be known from a false one 1. By the successe as Exod. 7.12 t is said Aarons rod swallowed up those of the sorcerers and in the primitive times t is cleare how the miracles wrought by the Apostles swallowed up in effect all false ones ●one by satan● Instruments how notwithstanding all those lying wonders wrought by Simon Magus Apollonius and others the prejudicating world was brought over from Idolatry and superstition to embrace poor persecuted Christianity by those true miracles which otherwise had been the greatest miracle in the world 2. A true miracle may be known from that which is a jugle or imposture by the design or end of it which is for the confirmation of a divine revelation to bring men over to the worship of the true God to propagate the true Religion the end of false ones is to draw men from this worsh●p which note of difference God himself has stamp'd upon false miracles Deut. 13 Dub. But doe not you now run into the same erro●r which you so lately condemned in others for by what you have said I must first know which is the true Religion before I can know which is a true miracle and surely then there will be no use of miracles to confirme me in the truth of what I knew before Firm. there is a mutuall confirmation betwixt the true religion and a true miracle true Religion does give light to miracles these do seal and confirm that Religion We see that all discursive knowledge does arise from some precedent knowledge untill we ascend to such principles that are clear to the light of nature now evident it is to natural reason that there is a God Creatour of all things that there is but one God that this one God ought to be religiously worshipped the intelligent and learned heathens have acknowledged all these Again 't is evident that there were never but four general Religions in the world Paganisme Turcisme Judaisme and Christianity and I think I have already made it manifest that of all these Religions none is so r●tional or such a reasonable service as is that of the Christian which for the substance of it is the oldest of all others being the same which was practised by the fathers both before and after the flood for the spirituality morality and unity of the God hea● worshipped 't is excellent beyond all others most agreeable to the Common principles and notices of the reasonable Soul Here upon any serious sober man may conclude that all these miracles which have been ●ttempted to draw men from Christianity are but mere impostures and those that have been wrought for the confirmation of it wherein one true God of infinite majesty wisdome power and glory is worshipped in spirit and truth are the only true miracles Dub. Pray Sir excuse me this unnecessary trouble which I have given you for by what you had said before concerning the supereminent excellency of the Christian Religion above all others I might have seen the force of your reasoning which as I conceive stands thus If the Christian Religion be the only t●ue Religion then those miracles which were wrought for the Confirmation of it are the only true miracles Firm. You rightly conclude I shall therefore proceed to the third note or marke of a true mir●cle and that is the effect and consequent of such a miracle which is the drawing of the mind from sin to God the primitive Christians much insisted on this as an undoub●ed evidence of t●e miracles wrought by Christ that they were done by divine power because the effect that followed them was the worke of conversion of Sou●● from sin and Ido●s to Go● and Christ and all true piety and holinesse of life they tended mainly to the overthrow of Satans Kingdome Christ by his miracles did not only disposesse Satan out of mens bodies but out of his Temples upon this accou●t he convinces the Scribes and Pharises of most irrational blasphemy when they objected against him that he did cast out devills by the power of the devill but he replyed every Kingdome divided against it selfe cannot stand Mat. 12.25 Beside● Christs doctrine which he confirmed by miracl●s was in every thing cont●●●y to the devils d●sign which was to draw men from the worship of the true God that himself might be worshiped to insnare men in the practise