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A85314 Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1652 (1652) Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624 107,263 123

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England there are true Gospel-Ministers I put in the word many I dare venture farre here but that I would save my selfe against those whom I oppose because I am sure I shal maintaine my ground for why should I have undertaken to prove that all the Ministers in England are true Gospel-ministers and that in every Parochiall Congregation in the blinde corners of England there are such visible Saints as ought to be in the constitution of a Church enough I meane to make a Church I should have had a hard taske but by this word many I include abundance both Churches and Ministers besides our Congregationall Ministers now to my Argument The major cannot be denied for all the causes are there set downe which are required to a true Minister 1 The efficient cause God 2 Materiall cause a man sufficiently qualified I meane according to Pauls phrase 2 Tim. 2.2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same word with 2 Cor. 2 16 who is sufficient two distinctions would cleare this latter text but I spare the reader 3 Formall cause orderly called I put in at least for substance because I would include many of the Presbyteriall men 4 Finall cause Ephes 4.12 the end of the Ministry is for the perfecting of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ So that no rationall man can deny the major Now for the minor that there are many such Ministers in England we shall see 1 For the efficient cause there is no controversie there 2 For the materiall that they are sufficiently qualified in that sence above mentioned who can deny it many yea abundance qualified with reall grace and experimentall workings on their owne hearts besides their Ministeriall qualifications and these many others have who it may be have not the former as could be wished but I hope though some doe whisper yet they will not undertake to defend it that there can be no true Minister unlesse he have reall Grace I have heard some that have affirmed as much but they are not such as dare undertake the Question But as for Ministeriall qualifications I doe beleeve the gifts of Ministers were never larger then now since the Apostles dayes never were the truths of God more clearly layed open then now God doth seeme to give out such large measures in these dayes as it were in opposition to this wild Generation that when they are crying out there are no Ministers God confutes them by pouring out more of his Spirit in point of Ministeriall abilities upon them then before indeed where other holy men have gone before in such Parishes and places thereabouts we finde not that preaching workes now as it did when it came new to the places yet I say the gifts of Ministers now are as strong as they were before but this is one of the Ministers heavie burdens in our dayes their Trading is dead Thirdly formall cause Our Ministers abundance of them are orderly called for substance there are but two things that I know of to make up this call Election and Ordination For election many if not all of the godly Ministers are elected by the people some by the whole Parish and others by the best in the Parishes But you say the Patron presents It is true but not so as to bring one in against the consent of the people Verily for Patrons to present an unworthy Minister and bring him in against the consent especially of the godly and orthodox Christians it is an act of cruell Tyranny and worthy of a Petition to the Parliament to get such an horrible abuse removed but you have a way now to helpe your selves against scandalous Ministers by the Civill-power and should have had it by Church-power if once Discipline were set up But if the Minister be not an unworthy man though the Patron did present as in former times and he came in without the consent of the people at the first but had it afterwards this makes his election good Hear what the New England Ministers say to this point Yet sometimes the peoples acceptance and approbation afterward may supply the want of election at the first Ans to the 32. Quest p. 69. V. Ames Consc l. 4. c. 25. q. 7. as Jacobs after consent and acceptance of Leah made her to be his wife though he chose her not at the first and by this we hold the calling of many Ministers in England may be excused who at first came into their places without the consent of the people So Dr. Ames But are all these Separatists so regular I doubt not I can give instance of a Weaver who lived in a Towne where I had my abode for a little time the Minister of the place was a very able man regularly called and inclining at that time to the Congregationall way yet this Weaver I thinke that was his calling separated from him and the other Christians and had his owne society to whom he did preach as they said but when the winde did settle in the Independent quarter this Weaver had a minde to a Pulpit but I hope then he will looke to his orderly calling he will not dare to venture but by the Gospel-way that now we shall judge his way of election was this as an honest Christian of the same Towne and one of this mans friends told me that Goodman B. an honest Carrier being a Sequestrator in the Towne he puts him in and this is one part of his calling as for Ordination that is a Toy But is this regular then let these Separatists for ever hold their tongues I know not but if a Sequestrator may put a Weaver let him be a godly and a pretty man as some say he is I love not to judge other folkes godlinesse I have enough to doe at home into a Parish when as the people call him not then may a Patron put in able and godly Divines into their Parishes with the peoples consent first or last as the noble Earle of Warwick I beleeve hath helped many Parishes to as able godly Divines as any one Sequestrator hath done I could give the Reader instances of others but so much I perceive by these kinde of men that I little regard what they say for if there lye any matter of advantage in their way they will stretch their principles as far as they please As for their sufficient qualification which should make the materiall cause of a Minister we must not question them in our dayes Paul indeed said Who is sufficient for these things our language is Who is not sufficient for these things much might here be said I am privy to mine own insufficiency and desire to bewail it but let me propound one thing to these men and see how they answer it Amongst the opinions which Mrs. Hutchison had brought forth in New Eng. this was one That there was no inherent grace in a beleever no new creature nothing but Jesus Christ