Exorcistes And what say you to the other part Orthodoxus The other part of that Pamphlet respecting matters of fact and matters of Doctrine confusedly iumbled and blended together is intituled The Doctrine of the Possession and Dispossession of Demoniakes out of the word of God Wherein wee haue summarily to obserue first the Preface put downe in the very forefront of the Pamphlet and then next the Doctrine it selfe with the prosecution thereof The Preface containeth first the maine purpose of that friuolous Pamphlet and then next a three-fold Distribution of that selfesame purpose The maine purpose you pretend for publishing that friuolous Pamphlet is the glorie of God and the edification of the Christian Reader Surely how friuolous soeuer the Pamphlet be deemed the pretended maine purpose for publishing the same is a very honourable and a glorious purpose no doubt Howbeit because the most counterfeit Coyne resembleth eftsoones the most glittering shew and the most horrible Strumpet the honestest face yea and for that also we haue it very strictly giuen vs in charge first to search out and examine your Spirit or euer we doe ouer rashly giue credit to any your holie pretences It shal not be amisse before hand very euenly to peize with the holie waights of the Sanctuarie whatsoeuer payment you proffer in liew of such purpose and then after approoue or disprooue of your holie pretences accordingly And this in effect for the maine purpose prefixed in the very forefront of that friuolous Pamphlet The three-fold Distribution of that selfesame purpose is this that followeth in order 1. First you would proue that the eight persons you speake of were euery of them possessed by Satan 2. Secondly that they were all of them vndoubtedly dispossessed by your fasting and prayer 3. Lastly you lay downe the holie and right vses which you say we must make of this wonderfull worke This wee suppose is the three-fold Distribution of that your former pretended maine purpose whereof we like wondrous well especially if you shall shew your selfe no lesse sufficiently able to prosecute then you haue orderly disposed of that your pretended maine purpose And to ease you something herein this we must tell you before that if you can soundly informe our iudgements concerning the infallible truth of those the two former points we will not greatly sticke to yeeld you the latter Albeit the same be shrewdly intermingled with some such disloyal assertions such strange conceits and such needlesse toyes as are not in our powers to reforme and we wholy disclaime Moreouer whatsoeuer odde Question concerning these matters hath been controuerted or handled before in anie one of our former Conferences that wee will not now disputs of afresh but only referre you to the Dialogue wherein the same is determined Briefly your needles Dilatations your superfluous applications your often excursions your idle repetitions your wandring Vagaries your roauing Discourses and extrauagant speeches more befitting a Rhetoricall Declamer then a Logicall Disputer all those we will passe by with a purposed silence for mispending the time Neither will we tye our selues strictly to your course of speech but will briefly abstract from the whole your propositions and proofes with whatsoeuer els is materiall and onlie endeuour to answere the same And this in effect for the whole preface put downe in the verie forefront of your friuolous Pamphlet The Doctrine it selfe with the prosecution thereof comes next to our consideration The Doctrine it selfe is a Doctrine concerning the essentiall possession and dispossession of Demoniakes out of the word of God Whether this be an high or rather a deepe point of diuinitie will appeare in the handling thereof The prosecution of this deepe point of Doctrine is performed according to the threefold distribution aforesaid Thus haue we brieflie and summarilie broken vp the whole body of this your Doctrinal discourse with the due order obserued therein Goe to now Exorcistes proceed according to this order and spare not what say you man to the first point of al I meane the essentiall possession of those your pretended Demoniakes Exorcistes I doe confidentlie auouch to the world that those eight persons we speak of they were in deed essentiallie possessed with vncleane spirits and did not counterfeit a possession as is affirmed by some Orthodoxus You say they were in deed essentiallie possessed I pray you forget not your wordes Howbeit or euer we come to dispute the verie point of that Question this I must tell you for truth that you cannot possiblie name anie one place throughout the whole Bible wherein the words possession or possessed are properlie vsed to this your pretended purpose as wee haue shewed sufficientlie in our second Dialogue and then how should you possiblie proue your supposed essentiall possessions of those your pretended Demoniakes out of the word Exorcistes O yes sir euerie where throughout the Geneuah translation those words are ordinarilie obserued Orthodoxus A proper Disputer you shew your selfe I insist vpon the Originall and you vrge the Geneuah translation which yet being dulie conferred one place with another will be found directlie against you For first concerning the Originall the word which the Euangelist vseth therein is Daemonizomênos that is one Diuellished or one afflicted tormented or vext with a Diuell And so hath your Geneuah translation in the fifteenth of Matthew the twentie two verse Yea and herein also you your owne selfe very fullie accordeth in the verie Title of that your forenamed Narration terming that your supposed Possession in your eight pretēded Demoniakes to be nothing els but a grieuous vexation by the Diuell Yea and which more is euen in the verie title of this your treatise of doctrine you doe call them onelie Demoniakes as also in sundrie places throughout that booke By all which it is to too apparant that either you finallie distrust the finding of that word possession throughout the whole Bible and so speake of possession at a blind aduenture or that els you do with the Geneuah translator account the words possession and vexation by Diuels to be indifferentlie taken for one and the selfesame matter and so your supposed essentiall possession falles flat to the ground Howbeit if we should verie fauourablie affoord you the word possession which by great hand you see will neuer be gained yet then also you are as far from the point of your purpose as euer before For how proue you those your eight pretended Demoniakes to be in such sort possessed as you beare vs in hand they were Exorcistes I proue it directlie from the verie cause of their actions or passions thus Supernaturall effects doe argue some supernaturall cause Those actions or passions which they endured were supernaturall effects therefore those actions or passions they argue some supernaturall cause Orthodoxus Your Assumption is vtterlie vntrue For those their supposed actions or passions they were not supernaturall whatsoeuer you seeme to report and which more is meere naturall causes haue
had and may haue more wonderfull effects then any of those your eight pretended Demoniakes their actions or passions being soundly reported as in our seuenth Dialogue is shewed at large Neither may you in such vncertaine causes and courses of nature so certainelie conclude from the effect to the cause as you seeme at this present Both because but one and the selfesame cause may bring forth sundrie effects and for that also euen one and the selfesame effect doth eftsoones proceed from seuerall causes Touching the first we haue a liuelie experiment from the Sunne it selfe whose heate beeing euer but one and the same doth cause quite contrarie effects For it softeneth wax and hardeneth clay it draweth a verie fragrant sauour from flowers and a foule noysome stinke from the dung-hill Now next for the other I meane that one and the selfesame effect may fitlie proceed from seuerall causes we may see it apparant by an extraordinarie heat in our bodies Which extraordinary heat being but one and the same may be an vndoubted effect either of fire or of aboundance of clothes or of excessiue drinking of wine or of some violent exercise The like experiments doe daily appeare from the sundrie humours of our naturall bodies and from the variable operations of nature arising thence Yea and which more is those your supposed supernaturall effects namelie rending foaming crying aloude leauing for dead and so forth they may and doe eftsoones arise from sundrie meere naturall diseases I meane from melancholie from mania from lunacie from phrensie from the Epilepsie from the mother from conuulsions from crampes and such like And therefore from these so vncertaine effects you cannot certainely conclude such certaine essentiall possession of Diuels as appeareth at large in sundrie our former Dialogues Exorcistes But sir the actions or passions of those eight Demoniakes they were vndoubtedly supernaturall effects and must necessarilie proceed from some supernaturall cause namelie either from God or good Angels or from Satan at least From God or good Angels they could not possiblie proceed being toyes and fooleries so farre vnbeseeming their sacred natures and therefore no doubt from the Diuell to whose filthie disposition they are so correspondent and suting Orthodoxus They were not supernaturall effects as we told you before and your selfe shall neuer be able to proue them such Besides that your supposed impossibilitie for either God or good Angels to effect any such phantasticall vaine and filthie effects so much vnbeseeming their natures is to too grosse and absurde sith the iudgments of God whatsoeuer in shew howsoeuer or by whomsoeuer effected are holie and good and for that the Lord also in the orderlie executions or effects of his iudgments is not preciselie tyed to this or that supposed seemelie manner of effecting the same In like manner your inference concerning the suting of such vnseemelie effects to the verie nature of the vncleane spirit it selfe that your inforced conclusion of essentiall possessions pretended from thence is much more absurde then the other before For if those vaine and vnseemelie effects so fitlie suting you say to the nature of the vncleane spirit must necessarily conclude an vndoubted essentiall possession of some vncleane spirit effecting the same then those holie and those seemely effects namelie the confessing of Christ and of the way of saluation as also Sommers his sound exposition of the Creed for a long time together all of them so fitlie consorting with the nature of an holie spirit they must necessarilie conclude an vndoubted essentiall possession of some holie spirit effecting the same But the first say you is vndoubtedlie true and therefore also the latter Notwithstanding be it supposed that those vaine and vnseemelie effects which your selfe so vainely pretend were effected in deed by some vncleane spirit as you seeme to inferre yet that concludeth no essentiall or inherent possession in anie of your eight pretended Demoniakes Because not onelie those but farre greater effects may be wrought by the diuell though himselfe be not essentiallie in the partie possessed and therefore proue soundlie their essentiall inherencie in the parties possessed or hold your peace Exorcistes Why sir the Scriptures in euerie place they speake of the Diuell his entring in and going out of the partie possessed Orthodoxus Wheresoeuer the Scriptures so speak of the possession of diuels they speake it only by Metaphore as hath beene sufficientlie declared in our second Dialogue And this I say further that you cannot possiblie alleadge throughout the whole Scriptures any one text wherein either Angels or Spirits or Diuels are otherwise spoken of then only by metaphor the which places being interpreted literallie would pester the Church with many absurd and inconuenient opinions As for example the diuell he is said in Iob to compasse the earth What must we therefore conceiue that the diuell in deed hath his legges and feete like a man wherewith as it were a Malt-milne horse hee doth compasse the world by a circular motion So should we discouer to the world our circular follie Againe he is said to walke through drie places seeking his rest Must we therefore imagine that the diuell in deed doth trudge vp and downe the mountainous countries like to a roging vagobond hauing no habitation wherein to hide his head Againe he is said to goe continuallie about like a roaring Lyon seeking whom to deuour Must wee therefore beleeue that the diuell in deed runneth hither and thither as a bellowing Bull that seeketh for pasture So should wee make it apparant that we ourselues runne wilde in our wits And as in these few examples so in all other besides you may see the absurdities of such expositions Now then if in expounding these and all other Metaphoricall speeches concerning spirits and diuels you must necessarily let passe the bare literal sense or otherwaies fall flat into a thousand absurd and inconuenient opinions why should you sticke so fast to the letter in this one place alone concerning the entring in and going out of the diuell from the partie possessed Which being spoken by Metaphor as well as the rest may with no lesse absurdities be made to vndergoe the literall sense then any of the rest whatsoeuer Exorcistes I doe therefore sticke so fast to the bare letter especiallie in this aboue all the rest because these words of entring in and of going out are neuer vsed in the spirituall sense but often yea vsuallie in the other Orthodoxus The best is that which you so boldlie auouch is but one Doctors opinion yea and which more is such a Doctor besides as is not yet of that credit that men may say autos epha Doctor Exorcistes hath spoken it Howbeit because in this point especially you sticke so fast to the bare letter alone that also of a verie set purpose I feare to pull in as it were by the eares your sensles opinion of essentiall possessions I pray you make
readie with the like inuincible reasons to deale in that poynt if you please Orthodoxus It pleaseth vs passing well and the sounder you deale the better we like it and the sooner we shall make an ende As for your sufficient prouing of that which you falslie pretend let the indifferent Reader determine In the meane time because you brag beyond measure of your vnanswerable and inuincible arguments to mannage your matters withall we will therefore the more exactly examine them seuerally to make present triall of that their pretended force And whereas you seeke to shelter all those your falslie pretended Patients vnder an holie couerture of the parties dispossessed in Scripture and by such a deuice would seeme to soare aloft in the clowdes before you be feathered fleg to flie at so loftie a pitch this therefore wee must tell you or euer we enter the combat that the holie Scriptures themselues wil not yeeld their holie protection to so paltrie a cause And therefore that which we haue hitherto spoken against your falslie pretended essentiall possessions may fullie suffice to answere the whole because where there was no true possession there can be no dispossession in truth yet because the finall ouerthrow of these your pretended dispossessions doth more fully destroy your falslie supposed essentiall possessions we are also here readie to encounter your vttermost force Pretermitting therefore all those your falslie pretended signes of dispossession from sacred Scripture as also your intolerable prophanation thereof by your fond applications doe presentlie proceede in propounding vnto vs your arguments Exorcistes I will First there were in euery of our Demoniakes those selfesame signes or notes of dispossession precedent and subsequent which wee reade of in the Scripture Demoniakes and therefore there was in euery of them the selfesame dispossession no doubt Orthodoxus If there were no doubt in the matter at al it were vndoubtedly a meere madnes for any to impugne the same Howbeit thus we answer your argument There were not in those your pretended Demoniakes the selfesame signes or notes precedent and subsequent therefore not the selfesame vndoubted dispossessions That there were not the selfesame signes or notes I proue it thus First those signes or notes in the Scripture Demoniakes they were vndoubted effects of their dispossessions the signes or notes in those your pretended Demoniakes they were in truth but counterfeit cousonages as themselues haue freely confessed vpon their oathes Furthermore those signes or effects which wee finde in the Scripture Demoniakes they were sensibly performed to the view of the beholders eye the other in those your pretended Demoniakes they were not so by your owne confession Againe howsoeuer those signes or notes in Scripture Demoniakes were the vndoubted effects of dispossessions then and so to be taken because they are recorded for such by the blessed Euangelist who could not erre in so recording the same those your falsely pretended signes they are but the vnruly reports of your lying pen directed therein by a deceitfull heart yea they bee such signes Master Darell affirmeth as men may be deeply deceiued in discerning thereof Besides that those selfesame effects in the Scripture Demoniakes then they cannot so concludently proue dispossessions now because the like effects doe eftsoones also arise from meere naturall causes and corporall diseases as our seauenth Dialogue declareth at large And therefore if those selfesame effects then must necessarily bee made the vndoubted true signes of dispossessions now then wheresoeuer is the like rending and tearing crying aloude and leauing for dead there is also the like essential dispossession of Diuels which were to too absurd to imagine Briefly your good friend Master Darell he doth confidently conclude a dispossession of Diuels where no such signes are apparant and therefore those your pretended signes precedent and subsequent they doe not necessarily conclude an essentiall dispossession of Diuels Exorcistes Oh yes sir for besides those Scripture signes I haue in my proper experience eftsoones obserued in the dispossession of some certaine Demoniakes a very sensible seeing or feeling of some thing going out of their bodies like to a Mouse an Vrchin a Toade a Bull a foule blacke man a Dog and such like and therefore there is vndoubtedly an essentiall dispossession of Diuels Orthodoxus What man are you wearie alreadie of those your Canonicall notes of dispossessions that you are fled so soone to those your owne experimented apocryphall signes or effects Surely it should seeme your force is but weake Notwithstanding howsoeuer you say you haue eftsoones obserued such things in your owne experience very certaine it is that not your owne selfe but those your counterfeite Patients rather if any at all they alone experimented some such supposed sensible seeings and feelings of some thing going out of their bodies and therefore it is very vntrue to say that you your owne selfe obserued the same in your proper experience Besides that Master Darell your good friend doth flatlie affirme that the Spirits themselues they neither were nor continued with those his pretended Demoniakes in any such sensible bodies as you say here you haue eftsoones obserued in sundrie of them and therefore impossible there should be any such sensible seeing or feeling of substances proceeding foorth from them as you beare vs in hand For howsoeuer you seeme to qualifie your former speech from the Spirit his supposed operation in the present procuring of some such sensible matters in shew at the very instant of their seuerall dispossessions that is ouer childish a conceit to perswade any reasonable man hauing especially his eyes in his head For the Spirits they could not by any their supposed operations whatsoeuer procure such sensible things as might be sensiblie seene or palpablie felt of any whosoeuer as in our second third fourth and fift Dialogues is shewed at large Exorcistes Yea but besides all this I haue by my proper experience obserued eftsoones in sundrie Demoniakes a vomiting immediatly before the egresse of the Spirit prognosticating plainlie vnto vs his imminent essentiall dispossession and therefore there is vndoubtedly an essentiall dispossession of Diuels Orthodoxus If this your new-coyned Prognostication had indeede been printed with priuiledge wee might by the warrant thereof not onely bee perswaded of the very trueth of that which you prate but withall we might by vertue thereof very boldly auouch that euery Gormandizing belli-god and surfetting Swil-boule so oft as they happen to spue are essentially dispossest of one Diuell at the least Yea and so much more likely than the other you speake of by how much those your pretended Demoniakes spitting vp but a little quantity of choler or phlegme as your selfe do report and that also with very great labour these drunken Epicures they doe spue forth the Spirits by whole pottles at once and that with a trice Besides that if vomiting forsooth be an vndoubted true signe of essentiall dispossessions it is
and Diuels to the ende of the world Physiologus Master Orthodoxus our endeuour to do the man good I perceiue is vtterly lost And therfore I deeme it a very direct and conuenient course to extract a summarie of all our precedent discourses into seuerall Questions that so the matter it selfe being vniuersally looked into it may in some better order of conference be either soundly answered or syncerely yeelded vnto Orthodoxus I like very well of your motion and will therefore accordingly put downe the seuerall Questions in this following order 1 Whether now in this last age of the world there be essentiall possessions and dispossessions of Diuels 2 Whether sole Prayer and Fasting be an vndoubted true ordinance of Christ for the powerfull expelling of Diuels to the ende of the world 3 Whether if any be truely dispossessed by sole prayer and fasting that selfesame dispossession be not indeed a miraculous worke 4 Whether the working of miracles be yet still in vse in these daies of the Gospell Behold Exorcistes these Questions you see they fully containe the whole scope of our conference doe take them therefore to your fauourits that they and your selfe may more soundly consider vpon them Exorcistes Your questions sir they haue been viewed and reuiewed by a graue and reuerend Preacher who saith they be friuolous vnworthie the consideration of any and such as hee scorned to answere Orthodoxus If the man be so graue and so reuerend as you beare vs in hand we wonder he would euer affoord an answere so answerles For howsoeuer his Seraphicall skill had soared at too loftie a pitch to stoope to a flie yet surelie we expected better measure from the man in an onelie regard of his grauitie Howbeit consider by the way what a deadlie blow his answerelesse answere doth giue to whatsoeuer you hold Namelie that his and your owne opinion concerning these matters it is but a friuolous opinion vnworthie of consideration yea and such as anie graue or reuerend person would scorne to answere For doe not these our forenamed questions implicatiuely containe the very body it selfe with the marrow and bowels of that which your selfe doe hold and practise But what doe you hold indeed such phantasticall and idle conceits as are meerely friuolous vnworthie the consideration of any and such as a wise man would scorne to answere If wise men should scorne to answere such friuolous matters what wisedome I pray you in those that doe hold with tooth and nayle such friuolous fooleries as that for the patronizing thereof they will lie al their liues in prison Well we craue an answere we expect an answere and therefore doe vrge them I pray you to yeeld vs an answere eyther one way or other Exorcistes Sir I will take vp your questions and acquaint them with whatsoeuer you haue said concerning these matters Orthodoxus Doe so I pray you and in the meane time you shall not want the assistance of our earnest and hartiest prayers to God for his heauenlie illumination in these and all other things els which may anie waies make for the glorie of his name the good of his Church and the euerlasting consolation of your owne soules And so for this present wee take our leaues Lycanthropus Sir wee are all highlie beholding vnto you for this your Christian care and greatlie bound to pray and praise God for your happie continuance Orthodoxus Well the Lord make vs all wise to saluation and so guide vs with his gratious spirit as we may all speake one thing and that there be no dissentions among vs but that wee may be all knit soundlie together in one minde and one iudgement and mutuallie expect with patience the houre of our happie coronation in Iesus Christ. Physiologus So be it euen so Lord Iesu. Amen The end of this second Conference A TABLE FOR THE PRESENT FINDING FORTH of all the principall points that are handled in this booke THE FIRST DIALOGVE pag. 1. MAster Darel his bookes no better then factious Pamphlets pag. 2 The Epistles Dedicatorie to those his said Pamphlets are sharply and soundly censured 3 Master Darel is a man very peremptorie in deprauing publike authoritie 4.5 From what fountaine such vndutifull railings proceede 6 Master Darel his two tricks of legerdemaine 7 His Doctrinall treatise is but an hotch-potch of things 9 The method of that booke is truly laid downe 10 Whether Master Darel his pretended patients were essentiallie possest with a Diuell 12 The word possession is not to be found in all the originall 12.13 The pretended effects of those eight Demoniakes did not proceed from any supernaturall cause 13 The actions or passions of those his pretended Demoniakes they were not any supernaturall matters 14.15 The Diuell his entring in and going out is to be vnderstood metaphorically as appeares by sundrie places 15 Whether the Diuell be essentially inherent within the possessed or the possessed essentially inherent within the Diuell 17 To be in a Spirit what it importeth 19 To haue a Spirit of an vncleane Diuell what it is 20 Whether Satan be able to dispose of our members being but without vs. 21 It is an idle conceit to dreame that the Diuell hath an earnest desire to be essentially within a man 22 Whether the effects of precedent possessions be the certaine signes of subsequent possessions 23 How the Iewes did discerne of possessions then 24 No possessiōs in Israel till a little before the cōming of Christ. ibid. Whether Saul was essentially possessed of Satan ibid. The word possession is not to be found in the Bible literally and properly appropriated to Diuels 25 The word Daimonizetai is truly interpreted ibid. The word Bagnath rightly expounded ibid. The word Bagnath importeth only but mentall passions and no essentiall possessions 26 The opposition of Spirits ouerthroweth the supposed essentiall possession in Saul 27 The effects of Sauls passions they conclude no essentiall possessions at all 28 The manner of Sauls deliuerance argueth only but mentall passions ibid. Reasons against the supposed essentiall possessing of Saul 30 Whether the curing of the Serpentine stings by the brazen Serpent did typically foreshew Christ his powerfull expelling of Diuels from out of mens bodies 31 Reasons concludently prouing that there were no possessions in Israel before the comming of Christ. 32 Whether senselesnes be a true signe of essentiall possessions 34 Whether Sommers was senselesse in his supposed fits ibid. Whether foming at mouth be any true signe of possession 36 Whether Sommers was of an extraordinarie stature 37 Whether he was of a supernaturall strength 38 Whether he had a supernaturall knowledge 39 Whether he spake Latine supernaturally 40 The historie concerning the eight supposed Demoniakes is shrewdly tainted 41 The examination of Sommers his supposed signes of possession 43 Exorcistes his applying of those signes is censured 45 Whether Scripture signes be put downe as directions to determine of future possession 48 Whether essentiall possession be an ordinarie
your circular follie Who rather then it should be supposed you did want your proper Antagonist to incounter with these your supposed signes of your pretended essentiall possessions would euen purposely crosse your owne selfe to make some sport with your selfe For first in the first page you make Scripture signes the onely assured meanes to discerne truely of essentiall possessions and then next in the sixteene and seuenteene pages you doe to too presumptuouslie put downe your owne experimented or rather your apocryphall signes to be euery way as vndoubted demonstrations of such an essentiall possession as any of the other expressed before The which presumption of yours your very friend I meane M. Darel himselfe hath censured thus Oh monstrous impietie is not the Lord Iesus trow we very highly beholding to this presumptuous Exorcist that dareth euen in his very Doctrine of possessions and dispossessions thus presumptuouslie place the signes which Christ Iesus hath giuen in his holy word of one possessed among those his owne apocryphall signes which are but vncertaine and doubtfull If happily you be offended with the peremptorie Censurer of this your presumptuous practise you must for any thing I know be fame to pull your selfe by the nose And this in effect for your pretended signes of essentiall possession Exorcistes Verie wel and what say you next for my applying of those selfesame signe◠to my speciall purpose Orthodoxus This in effect is that which I say to the same namely that your presumptuous applying of these particular signes set downe in the Scriptures to those your particular pretended patients frō the sixt to the seuenteenth page as before is an intolerable trifling with truth deseruing rather a iudiciall censurer then any logicall confuter Neyther when you haue done what you can will this your filthie prophanation of Scripture in any possibilitie be made to support the ridiculous and idle frame of your palpable fooleries from a most fearefull downefall before you beware they are so diuersly opposite among themselues and the one so cruellie cutteth in sunder the throat of another For behold I beseech you what vnreconciliable garboyles your owne penne hath rashly procured among those your pretended true signes of your essentiall possessions First those your phantasticall Demoniakes they haue sometimes a supernaturall strength and knowledge yet sometimes againe they only but seeme to haue so Sometimes they hurt but hurt not at all for though Satan can hurt yet he hurts not forsooth although yet wee haue sometimes seene the contrarie for Darling was so sore hurt that he was lame for thirteene weekes together Againe sometimes they seeme to be sensles but are not sensles to see but see not at all to heare when they heare not to speake when they speake not to strike with their hands when they strike not to walke with their feet when they walke not at al. Yea and which I beleeue is a wonder of wonders fire is sometimes no fire I meane it will sometimes burne but yet not burne at all if wee dare credit your penne in reporting these parabables or rather these paltrie phantasticall fooleries For what is this els in effect I beseech you but euen most impudently also to auouch vnto vs that those your pretended patients they seemed sometimes to foame but foamed not to cry out aloud but cried not at all to wallow but wallowed not to swell but swelled not to be left for dead but were nothing lesse and so forth For surelie where the causes themselues are onely in a seeming shew there the effects can neuer be trulie in a shewing substance But good Exorcistes neuer go about by any your bewitching perswasions to make vs beleeue any of these your cabasticall conceits or phantasticall effects in those your phantasticall patients vnles you will freely permit vs withall to conclude that those the pretended effects of all those your supposed essentiall possessions they were onely but phantasticall effects and so consequently but phantasticall signes but phantasticall possessions and dispossessions brieflie but the phantasticall deuises of a phantasticall Exorcist intending by those his phantasticall fooleries to replenish the world with phantasticall fooles For would you not in good sooth imagine vs all to be out of our wits if you could make vs beleeue that the maister diuell himselfe with all his adherents were able to make a thing essentiallie existing in nature eyther to be or not to be whē it pleaseth himselfe or that he can cause at his pleasure the same thing so existing in nature to receiue anie other proportion qualitie shape or forme then that which was primarilie appointed for it and euen naturallie infused into it by the first creation of God As in our fourth and fift Dialogues we haue handled at large Well notwithstanding all this we must be forced to account al these the precedent phantasticall fooleries for infallible truthes if forsooth wee dare credit your bare report concerning such admirable matters And surelie there is some reason we should harken vnto them at leasure you your selfe especiallie hauing here shewed your selfe the most admirable mirabilist among all the mirabilistes vnder the heauens Here is I trow not only mirandum and miraculum both but which more is mirabiliter mirificissimum I meane a very world of wonderles wonders Howbeit these your pretended signes of essentiall possessions with their phantasticall or fond application to those your supposed Demoniakes being in verie deed meere matters of fact and so beyond the compasse of our Commission wee leaue them therefore to M. Harsnet and Thyreus the Iesuit with whom you are hotely disputing these points and will be I perceiue so grosse is your impudencie vntill publike authoritie doe eyther determine the contrarie or appoint you and vs to debate your question afresh concerning the essentiall possession of diuels Wherein when you haue substantiallie prooned first that our Sauiour Christ hath vndoubtedly establisht those selfesame supposed signes of actuall possessions recorded in Scripture to be for euer the vndoubted true meanes to discerne soundlie of essentiall possessions to the end of the world And then next that the pretie phantasticall effects pretended from those your phantasticall patients were vndoubtedlie euen one and the same with the other that they proceeded apparantlie from one the selfesame cause and were also essentiallie effected after one and the selfe-same manner without eyther cosenage or crafty conueiance then conclude as you doe from the effect to the cause and spare not In the meane time you must giue vs good leaue to doubt of their truth as we haue hitherto done and must doe I beleeue for any thing you are able to alleadge to the contrarie The rather because the Euangelist we doubt not doth put downe all those which you call Scripture signes as onely meere matters of fact in the parties possessed then and not as infallible meanes to discerne soundly of your essentiall possessions now as we shewed before