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A51741
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A reformed catechism. The first dialogue in two dialogues concerning the English Reformation / collected for the most part, word for word out of Dr. Burnet, John Fox, and other Protestant historians ; published for the information of the people in reply to Mas William Kings answer to D. Manby's considerations &c. ; by Peter Manby.
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Manby, Peter, d. 1697.
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1687
(1687)
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Wing M388; ESTC R30509
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77,561
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110
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Head of the Church of England under Christ as well in all spiritual things or causes as temporal what better Answers in brief could be returned to the Questions of Dr. Martin Cranmer having sworn that the King was Supream Head of the Church of England under Christ as well in all spiritual things or causes as temporal A. But how did he interpret those words as well in all spiriritual things or causes as temporal B. Fox tells you p. 662. viz. After this Dr. Martyn demanded of him who was Supream Head of the Church of England Marry quoth my Lord of Canterbury Christ is Head of this Member as he is of the whole Body of the Universal Church Why quoth Dr. Martyn you made King Henry the 8th Supream Head of the Church Yea said the Archbishop of all the people of England as well Ecclesiastical as Temporal And not of the Church said Martyn No said he for Christ is only Head of his Church and of the Faith and Religion of the same the King is Head and Governour of his People which are the visible Church What quoth Martyn you never durst tell the King so Yes that I durst quoth he and did in the publication of his Stile wherein he was named Supream Head of the Church there was never other thing meant page 662. This is Foxes account of the Dialogue received as he says from a better hand A. Did he answer any thing further concerning the Perjury objected to him B. Fox tells you Others who were present at his Tryal do thus report the effect of Cranmers words viz. while he in this sort made his Answer ye heard before how Dr. Story and Martyn divers times interrupted him with blasphemous Talk and would sain have had the Bishop of Glocester to put him to silence who notwithstanding did not but suffered him to end his Tale at full After this ye heard also how they proceeded to examine him of divers Articles whereof the chief was that at the time of his creating Archbishop of Canterbury he was sworn to the Pope and had his Institution and Induction from him and promised then to maintain the Authority of that See and therefore was perjured wherefore he should rather stick to his first Oath and return to his old fold again than continue obstinately in an Oath forced in the time of Schism To that he answered says Fox saving his Protestation which term he used before all his Answers that at such time as Archbishop Warham dyed he was Ambassador in Germany for the King who thereupon sent for him home and having intelligence by some of his Friends near about the King how he meant to bestow the same Bishoprick upon him and therefore counselled him in that case to make haste home he feeling in himself a great inability to such a Promotion and very sorry to leave his Study and especially considering by what means he must have it which was clean against his Conscience which he could not utter without great peril and danger devised an Excuse to the King of matter of great importance for the which his longer abode there should be most necessary thinking by that means in his absence the King would bestow it upon some other and so remained there by that device one half year after the King had written for him to come but after that no such matter fell out as he seemed to make suspicion of the King sent for him again Who after his return understanding still the Archbishoprick to be reserved for him made means by divers of his best Friends to shift it off desiring rather some smaller Living that he might more quietly follow his Book To be brief when the King himself spake with him declaring that his full intention was for his Service sake note this and for the good opinion he conceived of him to bestow that Dignity upon him Fox proceeds After long disabling of himself perceiving he could by no perswasions alter the Kings determination he brake frankly his Conscience with him most humbly craving first his Graces Pardon for what he should declare unto his Highness Which obtained he said that if he accepted the Office he must receive it at the Popes hand which he neither would nor could do His Highness being the only Supream Governour of this Church of England as well in causes Ecclesiastical as Temporal this was a Chaplain after King Henry's own Heart And therefore if he might in that Vocation serve God the King and his Country seeing it was his pleasure so to have it he would accept that Dignity and receive it of his Majesty and of no Stranger who had no Authority within this Realm Whereat the King said he staying a while and musing asked me How I was able to prove that At which time I alledged many Texts out of Scripture and the Fathers also approving the Supream and highest Authority of Kings within their own Realms shewing withall the intolerable usurpation of the Pope of Rome Afterwards it pleased his Highness quoth the Archbishop many and sundry times to talk with me about it and perceiving that I could not be brought to acknowledge the Authority of the Bishop of Rome the King himself called Doctor Oliver and other Civil Lawyers to advise with them how he might bestow the Archbishoprick upon me inforcing me nothing against my Conscience who thereupon informed him that I might do it by the way of Protestation and so one to be sent to Rome who might take the Oath and do every thing in my name which when I understood I said he should do it super Animam suam And I indeed bona fide made by Protestation that I did not acknowledge his Authority any further then as it agreed with the express Word of God And that it might be lawful for me at all times to speak against him and to impugn his Errors when time and occasion should serve me And this my Protestation I did cause to be inrolled and there I think it remains This says Fox is the faithful Relation and Testimony of certain Persons that were present at his Tryal before the Bishop of Glocester See page 661 662. Reader Remember what Doctor Martyn observes page 60. Hearken good People to what this man saith he makes a Protestation one day to keep never a tittle of that which he intended to swear next day See the Tenour of his Oath to the Pope page 28. of this Catechism A. What did he answer to the particular of Incontinency or breach of his Sacerdotal Vow B. Dr. Martyn objected that being in holy Orders after the Death of his first Wife he married a second named Ann and kept her secretly in the days of King Henry 8. Whereunto he answered that it was better for him to have his own Wife than to do like other Priests holding and keeping other mens wives But the Question is whether other mens vices could be any excuse for him he seems to suppose here every man to be
Pseudo-Apostoli false Apostles But how shall we know them Christ teaches us saying ex fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos by their fruits ye shall know them Why what be their fruits St. Paul declareth Post carnem in concupiscentia immunditie ambulant Potestates contemnunt c. they walk after the flesh in concupiscence and uncleanness they contemn Dominions Again in diebus novissimis erunt periculosa tempora erunt seipsos amantes cupidi elati immorigeri Parentibus Proditores c. in the later days there shall be perilous times men lovers of themselves covetous proud disobedient to Parents Treason-workers c. Whether these be not the Fruits of your Gospel I refer me unto this worshipful Audience whether the said Gospel began not with Perjury proceeded with Adultery was maintained with Heresie and ended in Conspiracy Now Sir two points more I marked in your raging discourse that you made here the one against the holy Sacrament the other against the Popes Jurisdiction and Authority of the See Apostolique Touching the first you say you have Gods Word yea and all the Doctors I would here ask but one Question of you whether Gods Word be contrary to it self and whether the Doctors teach Doctrine contrary to themselves for you Master Cranmer have taught concerning this high Sacrament of the Altar three contrary Doctrines and for every one ye pretended Verbum Domini Cranmer Nay I taught but two contrary Doctrines in the same Martyn What Doctrine taught you when you condemned Lambert the Sacramentary in the Kings presence at Whitehall Cranm. I maintained then the Papists Doctrine Martyn That is to say the Catholique and Universal Doctrine of Christs Church And how when K. Henry died did you not translate Justus Jonas's Book Cranm. I did so Martyn There you defended another Doctrine touching the Sacrament by the same token that you sent to Lynne your Printer that whereas in the first Print there was an Affirmative that is to say Christs Body really in the Sacrament you sent then to your Printer to put in a not wherby it came miraculously to pass that Christs Body was clean conveyed out of the Sacrament Cranm. I remember there were two Printers of my said Book but whether the same not was put in I cannot tell Martyn Then from a Lutheran ye became a Zwinglian which is the vilest Heresie of all concerning the high Mystery of the Sacrament and for the same Heresie you did help to burn Lambert the Sacramentary which you now call the Catholique Faith and Gods Word Cranm. I grant that then I believed otherwise than I do now and so I did until my Lord of London Dr. Ridley did confer with me and by sundry Persuasions and Authorities of Doctors drew me quite from my Opinion Martyn Now Sir as touching the last part of your Oration you denied the Popes Holiness was Supream Head of the Church of Christ Cranm. I did so Mart. Who say you then is Supream Head Cranm. Christ Mart. But whom hath Christ left here on Earth his Vicar and Head of his Church Cranm. No body Mart. Ah why told you not King Henry this when you made him Supream Head and now no body is This is Treason against his own Person as you then made him Cranm. I mean not but that every King in his own Realm and Dominion is Supream Head and so was he Supream Head of the Church of Christ Reader Observe here how he makes the Catholique Church an Hydra of many Heads instead of that one holy Society which he pretended to believe in the two Creeds Martyn Is this always true and was it ever so in Christ's Church Cranm. It was so Martyn Then what say you to Nero was he Head of Christs Church Cranm. Nero was Peters Head. Martyn I ask whether Nero was Head of the Church or no If he were not it is false that you said before that all Princes be and ever were Heads of the Church within their Realms Cranm. Nay it is true for Nero was Head of the Church that is in respect of the temporal Bodies of Men of whom the Church consisteth for so he beheaded Peter and the Apostles And the Turk too is Head of the Church in Turky Martyn Then he that beheaded the Heads of the Church and crucified the Apostles was Head of Christs Church and he that was never Member of the Church is Head of the Church by your new-found understanding of Gods Word Fox pag. 655 656 3. vol. NOTE If the Turk be Head of the Church under Christ he must be so in all Spiritual things or causes as well as temporal according to the Oath of Supremacy contrived by Cromwell and Cranmer and at this day sworn by Protestants A. What is Foxes opinion of this Dialogue B. It is not to be supposed otherwise but much other matter passed in this Communication between them especially on the Archbishops behalf whose Answers I do not think to be so slender nor altogether in the same form of words framed if the truth as it was might be known But so it pleased the Notary thereof being too partially addicted to his Mother See of Rome in favour of his Faction to diminish and drive down the other side either in not shewing all or in reporting the thing otherwise than it was as the common Guise is of most Writers and of Fox himself to what side their Affection most weigheth their Oration commonly inclineth Fox p. 657. 3. vol. A. It seems then Fox likes not these Answers given by Cranmer and therefore suspects the Pen-man or Notary of partiality in reporting the same B. But I believe it a true Report for two reasons first the cause would admit of no satisfactory answers 2. Let the Reader see the Contents of Cranmers Appeal set down by Fox and there observe these words viz. And when I refused the Bp. of Glocester to be my Judge for most just causes which I then declared he nevertheless went on still and made Process against me contrary to the Rules of Appealing which say A Judge that is refused ought not to proceed in the cause c. And with this my Protestation made and admitted I made answer but mine Answer was sudden and unprovided note this and therefore I desired to have a Copy of mine Answers that I might put to take away change and amend them and this was also permitted me nevertheless contrary to his promise made unto me no respect had to my Protestation nor license given to amend mine Answer the said reverend Father Bishop of Glocester as I hear commanded mine Answers to be enacted contrary to the equity of the Law in which thing again I feel my self much grieved Fox p 664. NOTE Here he excuses the weakness of his own Answers by saying they were sudden and unprovided But let the Reader imagine what better Answers in brief could be returned to the Questions of Dr. Martin Cranmer having sworn that the King was Supream