subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
must be ruinated and al lawes abolished that the confusion of the Consistorie barbarisme of this new discipline may triumph ouer the church In France and Scotland they want much of that discipline they desire nay the Ministers want meanes pore men to mainteine thēselues and their families yea the Church wanteth sufficient and learned ministers and is glad to vse the ministerie of boyes and vnlearned youthes wanting all thinges saue boldnes yet they will not say that for these disorders or want of their desires it is reason that the ministerie and their aldermen should be changed and all ouerthrowen The 2 1. Eliz. 2. Statutes giue power to her Maiestie and her ecclesiasticall commissioners to appoint orders for the ornaments of the Church doth it therefore follow that surplesses and other ceremonies are to be abolished By like reason a man may couclude that all lawes are entended to be taken away because the prince and parliament haue authoritie so to doe a reason well beseeming such sencelesse felowes as vnderstand no reason for nether is the consequent good a posse adesse nor if the conclusion were granted would this man obtaine his desire concerning his consistorial discipline for albeit alteration be made in the ministers apparel yet may the same be made the state standing and the consistorie falling to dust so that if he looke for no other alteration then that which is entended by our lawes he his consistorie may goe and consider vpon some better reasons In the meane while hee saith that some of our chiefe defendors of religion against the papists confesse That diuers abuses in ceremonies and discipline were tollerated among vs the church yeelding to the infirmitie of the weake which were to be altered when people grewe to riper knowledge Wherein as in other things he dealeth falsely for neither is it true that 1 Fulke retent pag. 98. Doctor Fulke saith That our ceremonies or discipline is to be altered nor is he though a most learned man one of our chiefe defendors But suppose it were granted that he then thought that some alteration in ceremonies and discipline were to be admitted doth it therefore followe that the church must be spoyled bishops and ecclesiastical persons put frō their charges and a sort of hungrie cormorants brought into gouernement againe suppose this one man in his youth were of some strange conceite cōcerning the euerlasting blessed consistorie yet doth not one make a number where then be the rest forsooth in the intention of the libeller that is now hatching of newe heresies Can. 20. and fooleries But saith hee the bishops confesse in their canons that non residencie is a filthie thing and diuers confesse that lay men should not meddle with excommunication and that diuers lewde and vnlearned Ministers haue entered into the Church which were it supposed to be true yet addeth nothing to the cause of the consistorie for we deny not that men be men that there be faults in the execution of lawes therefore such as offend are to be punished not as this discrasied disputor would cōclude al lawes to be abolished a new gouernmēt to be erected in the law we denie that there is eyther impietie or abuse in men we doe not deny nay wee wish that such as giue scandale were remoued that by their defaults the commō cause might not be hurt if the consistorial faction could cleare themseluelues of impietie abuse in their gouernmēt it would be better for thē but they must thinke that there are faultes among them aswel as among others that they are no angels but men yea and many very odde men and men made of very strange humors Master D. Cosin confesseth that the punishment of adulterie is too milde and others be of his opinion for we do not say that euery point of lawe is so perfect or that things can be so stable that there can be nothing added or detracted if they should say so of their consistorie as some men douteth not they should but make a great leasing as is euident by the particulers of their gouernment what then will the libeller conclude of this our opinion doth he thinke that his consistorial discipline must come in place if he do he is abused for the imperfections impieties iniustice thereof is to to notorious That in the consecratiō of bishops the pastoral staffe laying on of the bible is cōmanded by law to be vsed is one of the libellers lewd vntrueths for no such thing is foūd in the booke of ordeining of ministers neither doth any other lawe commande any such matter but suppose it were cōmanded the same were omitted were it reason as this libeller auoweth because the archbishop vnto whose discretion many things are referred by lawe omitteth some ceremonie that therefore euery contentious companion should breake all orders let this be put among the cōclusiōs of discipline or rather disorder for such in deed is this discipline a scholler would rather haue cōcluded that he ought to be forced to obserue law thē that others because he breaketh law in one point should take occasion to breake law in all to cōclude his vnsauery tale against the ecclesiastical gouernment he saith that a 1 Aduertisement to the Church of England c. lerned man friend to the bishops noteth as abuses their vrging of subscriptiō their othes ex officio their excōmunicatiō for trifles and easie silencing of ministers wherein he saith not amisse concerning the gentlemans learning for in deed he is both graue learned now vnderstandeth and hath learned that neither in subscription nor examination of parties vpon their othes ecclesiasticall iudges doe any thing against either lawes of God or men or reason nor that any is excommunicate for trifles or minister silenced but for good cause and by his owne default nor that subscription is a new deuise being vsed in most ancient counsels and with great rigour exacted at Geneua and in all France which I would also haue the libeller to learne and also to speake the trueth and to deale honestly for no man is excommunicate in ecclesiastical courts but for 1 Quo minor culpa co maior contumacia Beza aduers Erast contumacie neither is any put to silence but such as shew themselues rebellious but what if some abuse were would not reason require that the abuse should rather be taken away then that there should be made a dangerous innouation in state these things considered I referre to euery mans iudgement what maner of disputor this felow is that either speaketh no trueth or els alledgeth such matters as make not to the purpose that the fathers or counsels yea or late writers of name speake against such Bishops as we haue is vntrue that some malcontents haue declaymed against the state is not denied that there are abuses in execution of lawe therefore our lawes to be abolished and the consistorie to be
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
Iudges and their sentence pronounced against Vdal but also to maintaine and iustifie their vpright and good dealing therein It may seeme strange that lawe should not haue strength sufficient to defend it selfe against the malice of these men But seeing the vigour thereof is either dulled or abated and men suffered to declaime against Iudges lawes let vs assay whether with reason argument we can defend lawe A matter albeit hard where the readers are such as repugne against lawe and are led forth without reason yet very easie to be effected where those that shall iudge vnderstand both lawe and reason vpon confidence therefore of indifferent discrete and wise mens iudgement I commend this chapter folowing to thy reading CAP. 3. That the proceeding against Iohn Vdall was iust and lawful and that the plat formers are iustly charged with breach of diuers lawes and guiltie of faction sedition and diuers other crimes notwithstanding the exceptions in that behalfe brought by the petitioner or others against the lawes and Iudges I Would not haue thought that any had bene so lewde as publikely to condemne Iudges of iniustice or so foolish as to oppose themselues against the execution of iustice had not this lewde libell declared the platformers to be of a strange humor and malcontent both with Iudges and lawes By these I doe see that it sorteth wel that men that desire innouation shoulde speake against lawes that such as doe liue in disorder and are voyde of reason should speake against Iustice reason Iohn Vdall a man vtterly vnlearned and very factious was as you haue heard condemned vpon the statute of 23 Eliz. 2 And for diuers other disorders mentioned in the inditement That it was iustly equally done the greatnes of the offence being faction and sedition the sincere and vpright dealing of those honorable persons that then were Iudges the allowance of others the most reuerend and learned Iudges in the land resoluing on the case the indifferencie of the Iurie the clemencie of her Maiesties gouernement the witnesses and proofes the fauour offered to the prisoner the obstinacie of the partie the testimonie of all that was present can declare Against all these a certaine quidam libeller lately distracted of his wittes and yet not well recouered taketh on him to argue boldly malapertly yea very loosely and foolishly But his malapert saucie dealing I leaue to gouernours to be considered his loose and foolish dispute I doubt not to make manifest to all that shall reade this discourse His first exception against the sentence pronounced against Vdal is For that he diffamed not her Maiestie which the law prouided for but Bishops that are no parte of her Maiesties body politike nor any of the three estates of this realme wherein he doeth not onely deny thinges true and affirme things false but also talke of lawe like a stranger ignorant in lawe and alledge an impertinent and not concludent matter That he diffamed her Maiestie appeared at the time of his triall by his writings and out of his seditious sermons and speeches proued by diuers witnesses and cannot now be called in question seing he that speaketh against her Maiesties supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall causes her lawes her proceedings and all those ecclesiasticall officers which rule vnder her as Iohn Vdall and his felowes vse to doe diffameth her Maiestie yea and that much more then if he should touch her priuate person for that concerneth her gouernement and therein is she touched especially as a prince and her princely authoritie maiestie disgraced And therefore seeing that is the common case of all the puritane faction all they that write for their pure gouernement against this state are diffamers of her Maiesties princely dignitie Secondly hee denieth the Bishops to be one of the three estates of Parliament and the Cleargie to be one of the three estates of the Realme contrarie to the reckonning of this Realme and common speach and actes of parliament whose common stile is the Lordes spirituall and temporall and commons of the realme contrarie to the vse of the French from whence wee had the 1 I assemblee destroys estats viz. le elergè la noblesse cominautè worde and which call the parliament the assemble of the three estates and contrarie to the reckonning of all Christendome that deuide the realme into the ecclesiasticall state nobilitie commons yea contrarie to Christianitie For who will recken the estate without mention of religion but such as seeke nothing but their cause and profite without consideration of religion in the actes of parliament made at Edingburgh anno 1584 these wordes are often repeated His maiestie and the three estates And againe Our souereigne Lord and his three estates in this present parliament The heathens reckened but two estates to wit the 2 Senatum plebem nobilitie and commons Christians euer reckoned the ecclesiastical state one neither doeth any lawyer say contrarie 2 P. anno 36 37. h. 8. f. 60. In a certaine report of Iudge Dyer we reade that one certaine lawyer is of opinion for reason he bringeth none that the parliament consisteth of three partes the Prince the Lords the commons but we reason of the parliament considered as a bodie of it selfe beside the prince as it is in commō speach considered for so we say the king in his parliament assembled at Westminster or the king to the parliamēt or parliamēt to the king In which kindes of speach if you make the king a part of the parliamēt you make the prince to treat with himselfe which cannot be Besides that you iumble the lords spiritual temporal together make but one state of them which is cōtrarie to cōmon speach Last of all you make the prince that is head equal with the partes and make others as good as him which is the endeuour of this libeller and therfore I say that the prince is head of that body that consisteth of three estates viz. the lordes spirituall temporal commons which cōcurring make lawes to binde the realme neither is it true that the bishops by law may be excluded out of parliamēt For in al parliamēts ordinarily their assent is set downe in tearmes What is done or what hath bene done in 1 Iewel def of the Apol. fact I will not say So the 2 Certeine statutes haue bene made by the king lords spirituall and commons others by the king lordes spirituall and temporall lordes or cōmons may also be excluded but we reason of law And if the bishops may bee excluded thē may the nobilitie be excluded also For the lords consist part of bishops part of temporal lords both haue equal right That the bishops cannot be excluded by right appeareth by the 3 Throughout all statutes lawes and customes of this land Sometime they departed because they would not be at iudgement of life or member which they supposed to be contarie
them worthy of hate for that hauing taught that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word they now teach that all that holde so be hereticks But he doth vs wrong for charging vs to say that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word the word Episcopus presbyter in scriptures is commonly vsed for one but we speake english call those that rule bishops and others priests which distinction we find plainly in scriptures and therefore holde the teachers of equality to be Aerians confounders of gouernment to be iustly condemned not only by Epiphanius but also by Augustine yea by the consent of all the fathers that distinguish priests into 2 sorts giuing the name of bishop to those that rule and priest to the second that are ruled And therefore most sencelesse is their reason that because they haue all one name will conclude of it aequalitie of all ministers For magistrates teachers subiectes haue all one name and yet are diuided into diuers degrees In vaine therfore doth the libeller bring proofes that the words presbyter episcopus are commonly taken for one for that notwithstāding there may be difference of degrees howsoeuer they wil answere this obiection yet is it apparant that the same ouerthroweth as I said their consistorial aldermen Away thē with the new church aldermen those heretikes that mainteine them for albeit Epiphanius erred in accompting them heretikes that prayed not for the dead yet is the same no reason to shew he erred in this which not only Augustine mainteineth but all the Fathers also not only they but the foure general counsels which this land approueth so that by the lawes of Englād they are heretiks that hold the equality of ministers what shameles dealing thē was this for the libeller to alledge the Syriake interpreter or Chrysostome or Ambrose or Theodoret whē no one speaketh for equality euery one defendeth degrees in the ministers of the word but the word cashisha saith he comprehēdeth both bishop priest what thē so doth a liuing creature comprise men beasts yet are not both equal in dignity neither doth it help him that the order of priesthood cōpriseth both bishops priests for it doth not take away the dignity of some aboue others what needed then so many names of Wicleffe Marsilius of Padua Luther Bullinger Iewel Melancthon others that speake as we do or Caluin his fellowes that speaketh against al antiquity or what needed this compagnion to muster so many names either of protestant churches seeing they were not of Caluins opiniō or of papists seing we do not follow Bellarmin Stapleton or papists but antiquity that speaketh as we doe Neither doth it follow Chrysost Hierom Augustin in 4. ad Ephes that the ecclesiasticall state is to be maliced for teaching that Pastor and Doctor are all one for so hath all antiquity taught and their interpretation by all antiquitie is confirmed Neither is it material what Caluin Beza Daneau Bertrand de loques Villiers and other say to the contrarie seing they talke contrary to antiquity reason and all practise Finally their owne practise and diuers reasons stand against Doctors which neither the libeller nor his mates make any haste to answere The exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Math. 20.25 is most absurdly forced by these compagnions to make against superior degrees in the ministery for that the apostles notwitstanding Christs prohibition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were superiour to other degrees of ministers And very absurd it were if Christ should suffer tyrants to oppresse the people and forbid lawfull authoritie to the ministers by which also would fall the authoritie of the consistorie and ministers liue without controlment And therefore as long as these fellowes interprete against all scripture antiquitie and reason yea and themselues too it skilleth not what they say against superiour degrees Against which Luther Zuinglius Melancthon Caluin Bullinger and the rest are most peruersely alledged They say and so likewise Iewell Sadeel Bridges Bilson Whitakers and others say that bishops as bishops may not take vpon them the rule of kingdomes nor rule with force like Princes But who is so simple as to cōclude hereof that one minister may not rule another as these fellowes doe But suppose some of our learned men should interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then Caluin hath done must all the clergie suffer for one mans not yeeelding to Caluins fancie Or because some denie that soueraigne princes may be excommunicate defending therein the soueraigntie of princes against the rebellious Papists and Puritans must therefore the Ecclesiasticall state bee dissolued nothing is more absurde for herein as the aduersaries deserue punishment so our men deserue speciall commendation in confuting the seditious doctrine of factious persons They also consent flatly with the Papists in denying the princes supremacy in making lawes iudging of ecclesiastical matters or appointing others to iudge them diuers other points neither can the libeller seuer their opinions from thē for first it is false that he saith that the Papists exempt their clergy in ciuill causes from the princes iurisdiction or that the consistorials do giue authoritie to the prince to deale with their consistories pastors in ecclesiasticall causes so long as they iudge they haue done well themselues for they take the dealing therein from the prince and giue power of deposition to their eldership And as the consistorials say that the prince may enforce their cōsistories making wicked decrees to make better which taking the iudgement of those matters from princes I see not how they can well do so the papists wil haue the prince not only to reforme ministers but the pope himselfe also Si Papa sit incorrigibilis Imperator potest procedere contra ipsum saith 1 Heruaeus de potest papae c. 13. Heruey papa potest accusaricoram Imperatore saith 2 Zabarel lib. de schism concil Zabarel The papists confesse that princes may make lawes with the aduise of the pope as these confesse he may with the aduise of the consistory They confesse that the prince may take order where the Pope is incorrigible as these say where their pastors are wicked and vngodly therfore the libeller doth nothing but fable where he would seuer the cōsistorials from papists but what should we looke for other at his hands seeing he is not ashamed to say that the consistorials wil subscribe to the apology of the church of England and the articles of religion authorised and published by parliament which deny the degrees of the ministery and oppugne them which are confirmed both by the apology and by articles of religion professed in this church Lastly they take exception against vs for that we teach that the best 1 All the ancient Fathers and of late writers Melancthon Luther and of others the best writers are against the eldership as if it were not proued by
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many
came neuer in prison That which the libeller here inserteth againe of other churches whome hee would haue vs to conforme our selues vnto he would neuer haue mentioned if he had vnderstood the grounds of his owne discipline for them selues say that all 1 Discipline de l'esglise Francoise Churches be aequall and it is apparant that euery christian realme and Church is to be gouerned by her owne lawes but these bee the fellowes that would translate the Popedome to Geneua and haue vs fetch lawes from new Rome Seeing then that Iohn Vdall and his compagnions haue mainteined a lewde and fond gouernment neuer heard of in antiquitie and by wicked forgery and lyes haue gone about to disgrace the present state and the gouernours and haue rayled against her Maiestie and lawes and that the Libellers defence is most friuolous it can not bee denyed that they haue written maliciously to diffame her Maiestie And good is were they had stayed in writing but they would not be ruled for T. Cartw. Ioh. Vdall and others were acquainted but too well with Hackets conspiracy His third exception against Iohn Vdals condemnation is for that he wrote not against her Maiesties person But the same is very friuolous for the Maiestie of a prince consisteth in his power lawes gouernement and not in his particuler person or priuate qualities or behauiour Neither are the papists punished for speaking against her person but speaking against her supremacie and lawes Therefore seeing hee confesseth he wrote against her lawes and gouernement hee must also confesse that hee offended against the statute that made it felonie to write malitious diffamatory matters against her Maiesty The preamble declareth as much for that the same pretēdeth that certain persons euil affected to her Maiesty should be suppressed In which number these that would disanul her gouernment and would bring her in subiection to Hackets prophets or the prophetical consistory are especially to be reckoned it was the special meaning of the parliament that the malepartnesse both of papists puritans should be repressed as some there present in parliament do witnesse Neither is it material that penal lawes are of strict interpretation for expound it as strict as you wil. it cannot bee but those that diffame her Maiesty any way either in person or gouernment must fal within the compasse of the statute That which is brought of the statute of 13. Eliz. c. 1. and 1. 2. of Mary 3. is idle talke and concludeth nothing neither is it true that those that account her Maiesties religion lawes heretical and schismatical are without the compasse of the statute that maketh it treason to call her Maiesty schismatike heretike fond likewise it is that he talketh of stealing of horses and contrary to his purpose Seeing hee mainteineth a cōpany of asses that would encroch vpon her Maiesties gouernment steale away thé hearts of her people But saith he her Maiestie is a body politike in fiction which is vntrue for shee is in trueth a politike bodie That is hath a resemblance of a body truly But were she not a politike body at all should it be lawfull to diffame her lawes and gouernement This exception therefore is beside the lawe for be she body politike or no if her Maiestie be diffamed then is an offence committed against that statute Againe he obiecteth that if it be a diffamation of her Maiestie to speake against her ecclesiasticall lawes they should also diffame her Maiesty that speake against the eldership which is an argument like to the resolutions of the eldership that is senceles foppish for admit her Maiesty tollerate the french Church yet doth she not confirme their french lawes no more then they of Geneua confirmed the orders of the English Church at Geneua nor do other confirme cōtrary religions which for some occasions they tollerate so that to speake against the absurd gouernement of that 1 In king Edwards dayes the Churches of strangers were subiect to their superintendents in this Queenes time to the bishops of Canterbury and London against whom while vnkindly they spurne they shewe themselues vngratefull not only vnmindfull of her Maiesties benefits company that contrary to law and couenant haue exempted themselues from the bishops gouernment and erected synodes is to speake in defence of her Maiesties lawes and not against them whereas these fellowes offend in direct oppugning all her Maiesties ecclesiasticall gouernment Sixtly he inferreth because it is not treason to kill bishops or other subiects nor felonie to write or to speake against bishops gouernment that therefore her Maiestie is not diffamed when they are diffamed A reason rather to kill the libellers cause when al men see his malice and ignorance then to hurt others for no man saith her Maiestie is diffamed because libels are writtē against bishops or others but because the same libels doe touch her maiesties gouernment lawes and that not in one or two points but in the very whole body gouernement ecclesiastical of her maiestie and that in most disordered maner and that the authors therof are therefore punished for perturbing the state not for their fond opinions of discipline Neither doth the libellers friuolous talke of politike mēbers or of diffaming the Dukes of Saxony or high Almaine pertaine to this purpose The seditious bookes of the disciplinarian faction haue bene intended against her maiestie nor the Dukes of Saxony or kings of Denmarke albeit they touch them in some sort that maintaine the superiotity of bishops also He saith also that the intention of the parliament was not to protect bishops as if they meant not to maintain the lawes state But admit it be true yet it maketh neither hoat nor colde to this purpose for these seditious fellowes are not condēned for speaking against bishops but for that arguing against them and the ecclesiastical state they proceede in such violent sort that they neither spare her maiesties honor nor her gouernment in ecclesiastical causes that the meaning of the parliament was to represse the malice of puritanes is most certaine for it was expresly mentioned at the time of making the act by diuers of the house and therefore iustly are they to be punished by that statute Further he taketh exception to certain canōs in vse as he supposeth as that womē may not sue their husbands for adultery c. that spiritual kinred hindreth mariage others concerning excōmunication fasting therefore concludeth that if it be lawful for some to find faults with thē yet do not diffame her maiestie that I. Vd. diffamed not her maiestie but both his reason is naught his iudgemēt in law simple for albeit men are not accoūted diffamers of her maiesty that reprehēd some law with modestie yet can no man cal her maiesties gouernmēt antichristian nor raile against her lawes gouernment as idolatrous superstitious without diffamation of her maiestie Nor is the sufferance of
some mē that deale modestly a cloake to couer seditious persōs that deale factiously maliciously The lawes canōs which he mētioneth are vtterly mistakē Behold I pray you the mās simple skil first saith he there is a 2 32. q.r.c. apud law that womē should not sue their husbāds for adultery But in the place he quoteth there is no such matter nay which is worse Gratiā whō he quoteth hath no authority of law In that place there is mētion made that the womā shal not accuse her husband for adultery to haue him put to death which this wisard vnderstood not but thought thē to be forbiddē to sue their husbands for adultery But the 1 Gloss ibid. glosse telleth him that the contrary of that is law and the practise of ecclesiasticall courtes is contrary and so hath alwayes bene and many at this day doe sue their husbands in causes of diuorce for adultery The 2. 2 24. q. 2. c. vlt. Canon which he citeth and affirmeth to be contrary to Gods lawe is that heretikes after their death shoulde bee excommunicate But first it doth not appeare that it is lawe with vs. for as I haue already told him Gratian is no law So that I cannot but wonder what blockish conceite came into this mans distempered braine to talke of canon law that knoweth not what is law Besides it doth not appeare that this was practised before the statute of 25. H. 8 19. lastly the same is not cōtrary to Gods word for to the memory of wicked heretikes such as Arrius Eutyches Nestorius Macedonius Paulus of Samosata we say Anathema And if the libeller say not so he is a looser companion then I tooke him for The 3. Canon that he 3 30. q. 3. c. pitatium affirmeth to be cōtrary to Gods law and not to ours is that spirituall kindred shal hinder mariage But both is the same direct cōtrary to our lawes that only respect the degrees of cōsanguinity affinity such like as are mentioned in Leuit. not to Gods law where they list to vse it we allow no degrees of kinred to hinder mariage but such as are noted in Leuiticus Nor is it an offence against Gods lawe for some ciuil or domestical cause other then degrees of kindred to forbid mariage for some time with some persons And therefore they of 4 Ordonances de Geneue Geneua albeit they account the mariage of cosins germaine lawful yet thinke them not conuenient He alledgeth also certain canons that enioyne Clearks to fast 7 whole weekes before Easter forbid them to fast on thursday But that they were vsually obserued in England before that statute he sheweth not Neither doth he rightly quote the places So that if these malecōtent disciplinariās meane to speake hereafter against ecclesiasticall lawes they must sende vs foorth some wiser man then this libeller to speake in their cause for hee is but a simple fellowe to dispute and vnderstandeth iust nothing in lawe and very little in honestie That in king Henry and king Edwardes dayes order was taken for the collection together of lawes in vse is granted but that they meant to correct lawes in vse which this libeller doeth insinuate or did confesse that there be infinite corruptions in ecclesiasticall lawes which he affirmeth cannot be proued I will not longer stand vpon this point for that I haue spoken of it already and the same is beside the libellers purpose which should proue that Vdall and his consortes offend not against the statute of Eliz. 23. aboue mentioned But his reasons are all too weake for eyther stand they vpon false groundes or else are they mis-shapen and euil featured That which he saith of Wickleffe Suinderby Tindall Hooper Barnes Latimer and others whom he chargeth with speaking against the state of the Church and common wealth is vtterly vntrue let the places be shewed and their wordes set downe For in these that already are brought forth there is no such matter conteined they doe not call our lawes antichristian nor disgrace the gouernement of the prince nor condemne the superioritie of bishops nor raile at the preachers of the Gospel and gouernors of Christes church they neuer framed libels nor inuectiues against the state nor euer sought to haue a new found gouernement established in the church and albeit they inueigh against the manners of men and corruptions of those times yet shall you not finde any that hath written in Martins satyrical and doogeon stile nor that sought to haue either Church or state turned vpside-downe or committed to the direction of the common sorte compare them with these late rimers libellers and firebrands of sedition you shall see a wonderfull difference Further saith he some finde fault with the forfeiture of traytors landes some with the short returne of writs others with pluralities of fermes and engrossing of Mannors others with racking of rents and diuers other lawes and customes admit they did yet is not the fact of one an excuse for the offence of others we liue by lawes not by examples But it cannot be shewed that any euer so raged with malice against lawes as the Martinists did and doe those percase spake against some one or two lawes and that modestly submitting themselues to the controlement of their superiors they railed not against gouernors nor lanced them with malicious libels nor sought innouation but redresse of things disordered to all these examples therefore of Wickleffe Suinderby Hooper Barnes Latimer and those that haue found fault with some abuses in lawe I answere first that it is one thing to desire the reformation of some one abuse and another to desire the subuersion both of all ecclesiastical gouernors and lawes which cannot be without a dangerous innouation of state secondly that the course of the proceeding of those that haue spoken against mens manners and some one lawe is farre different from these mens doings and writings that striue for the new kingdome of the Consistorie lastly that Wickleffe Suinderby Tyndal Barnes Hooper Latimer spake against the corruptions of papisticall Bishops both in doctrine and manners yet neuer did they seeke for a new consistorial gouernement nor did they libell against the gouernors the lawes the state This is but the Consistorian stile lately founde out and practised by lewde lozels and satyricall backebiters of good men for which if no other punishment be laid on them yet they shall surely answere at the last dreadfull day if they repent and amend not Further it is a shamefull course though greatly pleasing these mens humors to take that which good men spake against pompous and tyrannicall Bishops that gouerned at pleasure and gaue ouer preaching altogether and to apply the same against Pishops that neither so excell in wealth but that many base scriuanos and marchants yea shoemakers and taylors surpasse thē nor in power but that meane companions abuse them are not popish tyrants but preachers of the
which is sayde of a hundred thousande handes hee answereth that it is meant of a subscription to a supplication which if it were graunted yet woulde the same bee very strange if not rebellious for what is such a supplication but a coniuration or at least 1 Armatae preces armed prayers But saith hee Martin doeth not there exhort to rebellion neyther doe wee charge him with it but wee say that hee speaketh seditiously and that he insinuateth that puritans if they should not haue their supplication graunted would either haue gone away discontent or taken part with the enemie and that the packe of puritans entend rebellion for that appeareth First by confession of Martin that insinuateth they had many ready to maintayne that cause and next by those vagrant rogues that came downe into all shires with billes crauing subscription which is nothing but the beginning of a coniuration for neuer did so many ioyne but in rebellion nor can such a nomber confederate themselues without danger to the state And if the Prince were not exceeding clement she would teache them the payne of subscriptions and confederation for to obteyne alteration of State especially when Martin threatneth that so many would strike a great stroke which is very true for so many and lesse too being well armed and gouerned are able to fight with any prince in the worlde Neyther will it serue that hee sayeth that the speach is Tropologicall for it is rather Diabolicall and trayterous The wordes of 2 Vindiciae con tyrannos Iunius Brutus that for the eldership sayth it is lawfull to mooue stirres are disclaymed by the Libeller but litle knoweth he who is the authour of that booke for it was made eyther by Beza or Hotoman and conteyneth nothing but consistoriall doctrine Neyther doe I thinke that he will disclayme T. C. that meaneth to fight so stoutly that if euery hayre of his head were a life hee woulde afforde them all in defence of his platforme Nor of Goodman Gilby Whittingham and the Geneuians without whome this cause cannot stand Therefore if the Libeller renounce rebellion and the doctrine of it he must also renounce the nource of rebellion the Consistorie and all his deare darlinges vpon whose bare names as it were vpon emptie barrels hee buyldeth his consistoriall barriquades and bulwarkes Where they threaten troubles if they may not haue the discipline the Libeller answereth that thereby they meane scholasticall troubles while both partes write concerning discipline but that cannot be the meaning of the author for he meant troubles that would ensue and not which already were But the contention about discipline in writing before that time was at the hottest Neither is there any other sence to bee drawen out of the wordes but that great and bloody stirres would be about discipline if the same might not otherwise be obteined finally it is the common proceeding of the consistorie that without wracke and force did neuer enter either at Geneua or in France or Scotland Whereunto Th. C. in the conuenticle or synode in Warwickeshire as is supposed layde a good foundation for there the discipline was set downe there subscription and promise was made that all ministers should aduance it by all their power No doubt they meant as well force as fayre meanes for therein they haue neuer bene scrupulous Hee answereth also in defence of the Scottish ministers but he sayth nothing of the Roade of Ruthuen and Sterlinge and concealeth most dangerous matters wandring from the purpose in a generalitie of wordes Hee did not remember that 1 A noble precedent of consistoriall excommunication Galloway at Saint Iohnston cursed both the men that should take part with the King and their horses and speares and how Iames Gibson vsed the King very homely and how Iohn Cooper refused to obey the King And howe Andrewe Meluin vsed very tart speeches towarde him and yet obstinately refused to acknowledge him selfe bounde to answere his contempt these matters the petitioner eyther vnderstoode not or would not call to remembrance hee also seemeth to bee ignorant how vpon such like insolent behauiour the King tendring certaine articles to the Scottish Preachers as first that they should yeelde their obedience to the King secondly that they should not pretende Priuiledge thirdly that they should not meddle in matters of State fourthly that they should not publikely reuile his Maiestie that they neuer yeelded to subscribe A notorious argument of singuler insolencie in them if it bee as is reported and simplicitie in the petitioner that going about to cleare his cause giueth occasion of further matter against it Where wee alleadge that Brutus Iunius a Consistoriall writer or to speake more playnely Hotoman or Beza sayth that the people of themselues may set vp Gods seruice and abrogate superstition and that it is lawfull for the people by force of armes to resist the Prince if he hinder the buylding of the Church which these men take specially to consist in the eldership And where also wee set downe many trayterous speeches out of Goodman Gilby Martin T.C. and others the Libeller answereth first that these authors wrote against tyrants and enemies of religion as if the pretence of religon were sufficient to arme the subiects to depose the prince wherein is declared that these men accompting those that stop the eldership enemies of religiō hold that such princes as hinder the eldership may be deposed also which is an answere euill beseeming a man professing allegiance to her Maiestie and pretending to bee of the best sort of subiects Secondly hee saith that the same speeches are alledged by the Papistes to condemne our doctrine but that answere maketh much against the Puritans and not vs for wee condemne both that practise and that doctrine and those that haue giuen such a scandale to the Church They embrace it and therefore are condemned as perturbers of the State And albeit nowe they alter their hint and teache obedience changing faith with time yet that was their opinion once and I doubt not will bee as oft as time serueth Thirdly hee answereth that the doctrine of the consistorie dependeth not on two or three which we doe not affirme in this cause for we say that these opinions are generally imbraced of that faction and of the chiefest of them and that the same is so ioyned with the consistory that without the same it can not be mainteined for if the prince bee chiefe gouernour of the church the consistorie hath no place and if the consistory haue place away goeth the princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes Lastly he giueth out that our English bishops as well as the consistoriall faction haue rebelled against princes which answere first is not concludent for the offence of one is no protection for others secondly it is false The petitioner ought to haue shewed who these rebels be and where their rebellion is defended by bishops such as now we haue If he cannot shew them
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
4 5. Eliz. c. 1. Ex officio by any Ordinarie to a Clarke the refusall whereof is verie penall In the register in the title Consultation diuers cases are founde where the Iudges ecclesiasticall procceding ex officio is allowed Why then may not ecclesiasticall commissioners proceede Ex officio and minister othes For that which this accuser sayth that for matters of felonie they examine men vpon their othes is false For with these cases they doe not meddle If the articulator can proue they doe why doeth he not declare it seeing he may thereby procure them that hurt which he desireth Article 12 No man shoulde be cited to a spirituall courte to depose therein as witnesse For this is extortion and tort to the partie Fitz. iust ofp. p. 172. Cromp. 219. Answere Neither is any cited ad iurandum or to depose but ad testificandum which neither the author of the Articles nor any else can deny to bee lawfull For neither is this libeller nor any man to bee credited without an othe Somewhat this smatterer hath heard but hee cannot cite it right For both the Register and Fitzherbert the author of this opinion doeth allowe othes in causes testamentarie and matrimoniall And it is the common practise and euer was in all causes and courtes And himselfe confesseth so much in the next accusation But the obiection he cannot hit When hee obiecteth right hee shall haue his answere more at full Now it is sufficiēt to say that which euery lawyer that knoweth any lawe can tell him that seeing by the lawes of England many causes are heard in Ecclesiasticall courtes which cannot bee decided without witnesses the calling of witnesses is necessarie Article 13 No Bishoppe ought to appoynt a man to appeare before him to take an othe ex Officio sauing in matters of marriages and willes Answere Many wayes the ignorance of this man that would gladly shewe his skill in lawe appeareth For wee say not in termes of lawe that a man taketh an othe ex officio but that the Iudge proceeding sometime Ex Officio sometime otherwise doeth minister an othe to the partie Againe the bishop doeth not appoynt men to appeare before him but calleth them by proces of lawe But these are but errors in termes A grosser fault it is that he mistaketh lawe For not whatsoeuer Fitzherbert setteth downe is lawe in this case especially of prohibition For nothing is more ordinarie then to reuerse prohibitions by consultations The meaning of the wordes of Fitzherbert or rather of the Register whence he drewe his writte was That men should not bee called into ecclesiasticall courtes to confirme any contract concerning goods or chattels by othe by which meanes the ecclesiastical court encroched vpon other courtes Onely causes Matrimoniall and Testamentarie in that case for to other it cannot bee extended were excepted That in matter of Tithes and other causes men answered vpon their othes is euident for that the 1 Art Cler. 9. Edw. 2. c. 12. Kings tenants as well as others answered before Ordinaries and were by them also excommunicate for their contumacie In matters of Tithes the 2 27. H. 8. contemners of the ecclesiasticall processe by statute are condemned and may bee forced to obey And in another statute it is decreed That the 3 32. H. 8. Ordinarie may conuent such as withholde Tythes according to to the lawes ecclesiasticall Likewise the ecclesiasticall Iudge may by statute proceede against those that 4 Eliz. c. 2. violate the lawes concerning vniformitie of Common prayer yea Fitzherbert 5 Nou. Natur breu fol. 63. graunteth that an ecclesiasticall Iudge may exact a caution iuratorie before he deliuer a man that is in prison vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo False it is therefore that this bolde and blinde bayarde sayth That byshops boldlie presume against lawe Nay he and his companions boldly presume both against lawe and common humanitie for both doe they runne into fellonies and treasons and also speake against lawes and defend their doinges and raile against others that gently put them in minde of their faultes Article 14 Morning and Euening prayer should be read euery day throughout the yeere but are not Answere How knoweth hee that Morning and Euening prayer is not said If he had frequented Churches so diligently as he ought to haue done he might haue vnderstood the contrary But where it is not said I thinke he liketh vs not the worse for that For no sort of men I except not the Iesuites doe more bitterly raile against our booke and order of Common prayer then his consorts doe And yet this wil I proue that the worst of those prayers are more Christianlike then their extemporall prayers made of broken sighes and sentences for the most part and full fraught with malice and other passions To say nothing of confusion But suppose prayers were not said euery day let him shew where they are so commanded For the Communion booke commandeth them not so peremptorily to be read as the accuser anoweth but alloweth the Curat to omit them when he is lette either with priuate studie or other necessary busines which exception he hath quite forgotten and left out as for Prayers they be in most places vsed and would be more if they were not by these contentious fellowes despised Article 15 The Curate must tolle a Bell yet doeth not he but the Sexten Answere A bloudie fault and great pitie that the Presbyterie with their bels and bables were not admitted if for nothing else yet to take order that belles might bee tolled The preface to the Communion booke doeth onely will the Curate to doe it or to appoynt one to doe it And so it is in most places And if he did it not yet is he not in fault but the parishioners that against his wil appoynt a Sexten that is not at his commandement This Article tendeth as all the practises of puritanes doe to the disgrace of the Ministery whom they would put to all base offices and yet you my masters of the ministerie both see them and suffer them to abuse you and your function Article 18 The people are to answere the Priest and to say Amen Yet doeth the Clarke answere alone in most places Answere If this Accuser had good matter he would not spare that taketh such paines to finde a knot in a rushe picketh quarrels where no cause is For both it is false which he saith that the people answereth not and were it true yet is it not the bishops or others fault but the peoples that will not attend the prayers and say Amen Percase some are phantasticall persons and condemne our forme of prayers some are phrenetical and vnderstand not more fitte to be prayed for then to pray Article 17 Where there is singing there the lessons should be sung in a plaine tune c. Answere Nothing doeth more displease the puritans then church-musicke and singing yet this accuser
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
mouthed Libellers and enemies of the Ministerie professed doe call honest men it is not materiall I know none marieth but such as haue allowance sufficient of their choyce If they haue not let the offenders be corrected and not innocents be disgraced for others offence why they should be called forward I know not seing none is so forward in marrying as the Puritan sort of whom I knowe none that hath the gift of continencie but would they cease to disgrace others I could for my part be contēt they should vse their libertie prouided alwayes they make not too great post haste nor without regard and consideration of their future wiues qualities leape into sodaine mischiefe Article 44 The clergie people goe not in their habits and square caps Answere What do the Puritan people forsooth they square it out for the most part in new fashiond conceited apparel are all clad in Satin veluet and costly apparel and braue it like people of a new gouernment some for humility sake goe in flat caps others go like clownes in russet clokes well they may for their religion is a russet religion good for none but russet cotes such as fauour populer gouernment fitting none but our rusticall platformers whose maners are rude vnciuill that men go not more orderly this faction is cause which maketh warre against the ministery and by all meanes seeketh to offer them scorne Article 45 The Bishops Officials allow none to be absent from their owne parish vnlesse they will pay a Marke for a licence yet law suffreth men to heare Sermons other where Answere Law restraineth men to their owne parishes but lust would be gadding abroad to see what is done elswhere for which if any officials graunt licence contrary to lawe there is law to correct them but why this man should be so offended with taking money for licēces I see no cause seing his deare friēds yea himselfe too vseth more taking then giuing and considering that Pettifoggers Scriuanoes such as the authors of this booke seeme to be liue by taking take without licence and contrary both to licence and law and haue wonne more by taking then others by long seruice and for all their pretended hypocrisie will neither spend nor loose commoditie for their puritane cause why men should not be suffered to frequent factious sermons there be diuers causes it is the way to faction sectes heresie and tumults and diuers other disorders Article 46 Songs in Churches should be distinct and modest Answere So they are but the Libellers eares were percase so out of tune that he could not iudge when he heard them for how can his eares be in tune whose wits not long since were in so great discord In the opinion of all wise men that can iudge and haue skill our church musicke is distinct modest and graue and farre passing the discordant tunes of Puritans Article 47 None of the Queenes subiectes should call one another hereticke nor scismaticke but we are so called and Puritans too by certaine Libellers Answere Yea and that very iustly too if you mayntaine this Libell and your newe booke of prayers and their most seditious and hereticall pamphlets of T. C. and others neither are they Libellers in so calling you nor doeth the Iniunction protect factious mates but quiet and good subiects such as you will not shew your selues to be rayling and reuelling at Lawes and gouernours in most shamefull sort and therefore disdayne not to be called by your names nor wonder if you be beaten with your owne weapons Article 48 Bishops and their Chapleyns seldome make a legge at the name of Iesus vnlesse it be at the reading of the Gospell nor remember Iesus but when they lustily sweare by Iesus Answere All Puritans vtterly mislike this bowing at the name of Iesus this semypuritan and demychristian misliketh the omitting of it therein condemning all his companions as contumacious lawbreakers and not proouing any matter against his aduersaries for which both one and other haue cause to mislike him but especially for lying and slaundering of Gouernours wherein hee sheweth his full malice and choler in charging them and want of matter in conuincing them The Puritanes speake nothing without protesting doe you not call that swearing no it is forswearing for when they protest deepest then commonly they dissemble most and performe least yea many of these seeme with the Priscilianites to haue litle regarde of othes as appeareth by their examinations If he knew any of his aduersaries that offendeth in swearing I doubt not but they shoulde heare it Article 49 The Queene accompteth them good subiectes that acknowledge her Maiestie to be sole supreme gouernour ouer all her subiect in all her Dominions The Bishops doe not Answere If nothing els were to bee respected but this poynt then were all lesuites and Seminarie men and other traytors good subiectes for they doubt not to giue her the title of sole supreme Gouernour ouer all her subiects but that she hath authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes and iudge in Ecclesiasticall causes and to appoynt Iudges and officers to iudge therein that no other hath power ouer her Maiestie neither Iesuites nor Puritans will confesse therefore vnlesse they acknowledge all the rest of her Maiesties prerogatiues and shewe more obedience to Lawes then hitherto they haue done they can not so easily scape the notes of disloyaltie Article 50 The Bishops haue not punished offendors against Iniunctions but are onely carefull to vrge subscriptions othes ex officio c. Answere If the Bishops haue not done their dueties why doest not thou make thy selfe party and accuse them they stand vpon their defence why commest thou not foorth in thy likenesse to charge them In the meane while take this answere that offences must first bee knowen and then punished and secondly that bishops haue suffered as fewe knowen offences to escape vnpunished as any other officers thirdly that those offences that tend to the ouerthrowe of the State are most narrowly looked vnto and lastly that he is a lewde mate that doeth picke quarrels with others for not executing those Lawes which himselfe doeth mislike As concerning their vrging of subscriptions and conuenting those that are disobedient to law the Bishops haue offended in nothing more then that they haue not bene more peremptorie in vrging them no State nor Gouernours euer suffered such notorious disloyaltie so long vnpunished Article 51 Bishops take extraordinarily for licences to preache contrarie to their owne aduertisements of licentious Preachers no licence is required Answere Shewe who they bee that take so much and who these licencious Preachers bee or els men will esteeme thee a licencious Libeller for mine owne part I knowe none more licencious then thy selfe and thy consortes which with all impunitie speake against Lawes and take to themselues libertie both to liue and beleeue as they list and for taking surpasse all other takers taking both from Church and
haue more benefices then two with cure if they haue all but those they can keepe doe fall voyde lastly all this which hee draweth out of the Canons is to no purpose for they haue no strength of lawe Article 63 The bishops say that excommunication is a ciuill discommuning and company with excommunicate persons and if our Prelates were examined then were they excommunicate and worse then publicanes and heathen Answere Marke I pray you the intemperate furie of this base companion the honourable Prelates of this land reuerend for their learning yeeres grauitie place this crablouse swaine and paltrie parasite scornefully calleth iolly prelates and in changing scorne into rayling calleth them excommunicate persons yea worse then publicanes and heathen into such a streine of madnes is he entred looke Allen Stapleton other traytors discourses yet shall you find no such scornefull nor spitefull speaches and wherefore doth hee so reuile them forsooth because he supposeth they offend against canons yet neyther doth he prooue any fault nor can he shew that those canons are lawe nor can hee excuse his consorts that notoriously contemne all excommunications nor finally can hee disproue the common distinction of excommunication that one sort is ecclesiasticall the other ciuill and therefore as a furious for rayling without learning or wit against men of so high place hee is rather to bee corrected in Bedlem then refuted with long discourse I doubt not but the consistorie it selfe will bee ashamed of such kinde of dealing and all other reasonable men condemne it why the disciplinarians should talke of excommunication there is no reason forthey commit the same into prophane mens hands and are therein worse then heathen that neuer committed such holy things into so base mens hands This is the summe of all those articles that he hath gathered against the ecclesiasticall state a playne iustification of all their doings for if he could haue said more against them he would not haue spared and charging them with matters eyther tryfling or else vtterly vntrue declareth them to bee innocent himselfe to bee malicious and furious for the summe of all is nothing but a packe of vnruly wordes as Chapplaines Priestes iolly Prelates hangbyes excommunicate persons worse then heathen and publicanes licentious preachers extortioners bribers and such like I could requite him with better and as bitter tearmes but to answere his articles I will onely returne him but these few articles following A BRIEFE COLLECTION OF DIVERS haereticall and strange opinions lewde practises and fond fancies and deuices which certaine factious and light headed persons haue lately coloured and aduanced with glorious titles of discipline and reformation set downe in forme of Articles TH. Cartw. doth call the rules of his new discipline the 1 In the Epistbefore Fenners new diuinitie Axiomes or irrefragable principles of heauenly Canaan whereby he would in sinuate that they are without doubt to be receiued and yet can he not shewe that euer the eldership or the strange gouernement thereof was practised in Canaan vnlesse it were of the Cananites and enemies of Gods Church to the rooting out of Gods people and ouerthrow of the Ministerie 2 The disciplinarians holde that the gouernement of the Eldership is Christes kingdome and that they that withstand the same are enemies to Christ to religion and to Christes kingome and apply these wordes of the Gospel 2 Th. Cartw. in a certeine table Those mine enemies that would not haue me to reigne ouer them bring them and slay them before me Aplaine euidence that if with entreatie they cannot they meane by warres and bloodshed to set vp their kingdome and yet William Hacket their first king was crowned in Cheapeside with an hempen coronet or diademe and his garde and followers dipersed 3 They teach That the Church is onely to be gouerned by Christes lawes And yet are they not able to bring forth one worde for proofe of their consistorie or the partes of it or the office of euery seueral part of it or any part of their gouernment and seeme to rest onely vpon mens bare conceites and fancies contrarie both to scriptures equitie and reason 4 They professe great loyaltie in termes yet doubt not to say that the simplest Consistorie they haue may giue the prince to Satan 5 They take from the magistrate power to make ecclesiasticall lawes for the gouernment of the Church and yet at Geneua they haue no ecclesiasticall lawes but made by the magistrates 6 That authoritie which statutes giue to princes In calling and assembling of Synodes and appointing ecclesiasticall commissioners to heare and determine Ecclesiasticall matters and appointing delegates to represse wrongs offered in Ecclesiasticall courtes they take away and deny the supremacie of the prince very presumptuously 7 They ouerthrowe her Maiesties reuennues and dissolue the office of first fruites and tenthes 8 They deny her all authoritie to nominate Bishops or other officers of the Church and vtterly take away her right of patronage in all ecclesiasticall liuings 9 They dissolue all ecclesiasticall lawes and all those statutes that concerne Bishops or other Ministers or other ecclesiastical liuings person or cause 10 They deny that her Maiestie may pardon and graunt life to any offender Fenneri Theologia whome Moses lawe commandeth to be put to death and binde her to the obseruance of Moses iudiciall lawes 11 They seeke the ruine and ouerthrowe of the whole ecclesiasticall estate by abasing the Ministers of the Church beneath all others and laying infinite burthens vpon them and taking away all rewardes of learning a point which you my masters of the vniuersitie are to looke vnto 12 By ouerthrowing of the Ecclesiasticall state they doe depriue her Maiestie of many thowsands of able and most willing men to doe her seruice and make way to inward faction and forreine inuasion and all manner of heresies and disorders 13 They teach Th Cartw. reply that all magistrates are to licke the dust of the feete of the Eldership 14 They goe about to bring in forreine lawes and forreine and vncouth gouernors 15 They teach that in euery common wealth well gouerned Fenners holy diuinitie there ought some magistrates to be appointed to depose and ouerrule princes if they doe not their dueties like the Spartain Ephori 16 They teach that the prince may not determine any weightie matter Ibidem without the assemblie of the estates 17 They depraue the ecclesiasticall gouernement Martin and religion of this Church and call it antichristian and diuelish 18 They traduce the publike iustice of this land Martin and Epist before reformat no enemie and rayle against the parliament the lordes the Iudges the lawes and whatsoeuer misliketh them 19 They haue confederated themselues together That is euident by theit subscriptions for the ouer throwing of the ecclesiasticall lawes and state and haue subscribed certeine articles for the establishment of new lawes and gouernement 20 Cartwright and
probable nor euer did shee desire it nor can the Libeller proue it Onely she desireth that according to the lawes of God and the Realme as she and the learned iudges do interprete them and as the words doe signifie she may rule the Church This they doe denie and doe attribute this power to the factious Consistorie and therefore are factious Puritans Quaere Put-case Quest 13. whether the Archbishops of Canterbury should not rather be called Popes then Primates of all England seeing that a Cardinall gaue them the name of Primate as master Lambert saith and a Pope assigned them the name of Popes Heere I must also aske the Put-case a question or two viz. Answere why Tho. Cartwright is not called Tho. Wheelewright seeing hee would turne all round as a wheele and why W. Staw is not called Iohn Daw like reason is in both Names are giuen some by Lawe some gotten by vse And therefore seeing Archbishopsare called Primates euer since before the councell of Carthage great absurditie it is to dispute whether the Archbishop should be so called or no. And farre was master Lambert from his recknoning when he imagined the Cardinall Hugo to bee author of that name Neither can he shew that the Archbishop was euer called Pope by Vrban before the factious Puritans in their rayling vayne deuised that name for him in scorne But whatsoeuer was giuen sometime or nowe is in scorne cast on him hee renounceth the name Pope for the abuse of it and is farre from clayming the Papall authoritie If hee had the authoritie eyther of the Pope or of a meane Bishop yet durst not euery Sycophant play with his name and style neyther would such base fellowes so shamefully abuse him Hee ruleth by lawes he deriueth his authoritie from her Maiestie he can doe no man wrong he is vtter enemie to all papall authoritie Contrariwise the Lordes of the consistorie take on them like Popes to iudge in Christes seate to be Christes vicars to controll and excommunicate Princes to dissolue States to giue lawe to Kings to throwe to hell and no man may once speake against them where they rule without danger of their libertie and life These therefore are popes in deede and seeing they are so why may they not be called also Popes seeing they are dubbed with this name by diuers Quaere Put-case Quest 14. if Wickleffe Luther Caluin c. were nowe aliue and should speake against the Lordship of Bishops as they doe in their writings to which prison the Bishops would send them and whether doe bookes seene and allowed conteine matters of Felonie and diffamatorie to the Queene Quaere also Answere if the skie should fall where would bee best catching of woodcockes both questions are alike For as the skie wil not fal in haste so would not these learned men mentioned in this question euer open their mouthes against godly men or the state degree of bishops That is onely proper to the foulemouthed puritanes They speake against the tyranny and vanities of popish bishops with whome our puritanes doe not much meddle but rather treacherously strike good souldiers that fight against thē Our puritanes declaime against holy bishops of times past and preachers of the holy Gospel such as those learned men neuer condemned Let the libeller if he can bring forth one place which is not meant of papisticall bishops And therefore let them goe to the Fleete themselues as mutinous companions the fellowshippe of those learned men they cannot haue whose bookes although they bee allowed for diuerse good things found in them yet can it be no warrant for the platformers high stiled declamations nor any iustification for that which is euill For there can bee nothing more vnlike then bishop Latimers booke and Cartwrightes replies defacing the bishops Neyther are the wordes seene and allowed sufficient to warrant seditious writings For sometimes printers are too bold sometime the authors sometime the correctors and it cannot bee denyed but in Wickleffes bookes there bee faultes Chaucer and Reynold the Foxe are allowed to bee printed and many bookes moe for the good they haue not that any part of the leudnesse of them is allowed And therefore let the Putcase leaue pleading of seene and allowed seeing wee can neyther see his consortes much nor allowe them nor approoue whatsoeuer by their fauourers is printed though it be with seene and allowed Quaere why papists should finde more fauour Putcase Quaest 15. them the seekers of reformation and why they should not bee condemned as felons for their abominable doctrine If all should be punished Answere that maintaine abominable doctrine it would go very hard with the puritanes whose haeretical and leud opinions are very many and very abominable The particulers I haue in part touched before and shall if neede be lay them downe more amplie elsewhere Let not therfore this Putcase repine at her Maiesties clemencie wherin her special honor consisteth seeing they enioy it liue by it themselues let them not enuie it to others That papistes are more fauoured then puritanes is a bold and impudent assertion for it is wel knowen that diuers of them haue bene executed some as traytors some as felons others haue payde for it as recusants whereas none of this faction haue bene punished in like degree saue Hacket albe it they denie her Maiesties supremacie many of them refuse to come to church If there bee any that haue fauoured papists let them susteyne the shame of it for the ecclesiasticall state hath bene most diligent to suppresse them whereas contrariwise by entreatie fauour meanes made by puritanes by some one that hath his finger in this petition many haue bene dismissed First therefore I answere that it is vntrue that papists find fauour more then puritanes Secondly that the fauour which is procured for them proceeded specially from puritanes and their fauourers Thirdly that neither of them both deserueth fauour Fourthly that seeing her Maiesties pleasure is to shew them fauour for their liues they are not to repine at it nor malepertly to traduce her doings Lastly that the puritanes in termes do more maliciously oppugne her Maiesties proceedings ecclesiastical lawes then the most trecherous papists that are fled for the same out of the land And that therefore they are to quiet themselues and not to stirre in this their bad cause for the more it is opened the worse it sauoureth Quaere Putcase Quaest 16. if the bishops proceedings against men per ordinem inquisitionis doe not resemble the papall order in the time of crueltie Nothing is lesse like Answere for the Iudges now proceede by authority of her Maiestie and according to her lawes and yet are abused by euery base felow In times past they proceeded by other authoritie and by orders from the Popes then no man durst abuse thē These punish according to the Queenes lawes those according to their
directions Neither is the inquisition which we haue deriued from the pope but vsed of al nations contrariwise the inquisition of the cōsistorie is like to the Spanish inquisition the papal proceeding For as in the Spanish inquisition so in the consistorie a man is called knoweth no accuser and whether hee confesse or not hee is sure to abide the order of the consistorie and what they command the ciuill Iudge performeth And therefore if all must away whatsoeuer is borowed from the pope away must the consistorie goe and their excommunication of princes and their absolute tyrannie Quaere if Christ were before the bishops should answere Putcase Quaest 17. beeing demanded of his doctrine I spake openly c. Aske them that hearde me whether he should be committed as M. Bambridge M. Iohnson and other godly ministers This question touching Iohnson and Bambridge concerneth the ecclesiasticall state nothing at all Answere For their cause was heard and ended at Cambridge before the Vicechanceller and his assistants so that it should seeme to bee a case put besides the cause in handling But in the same wee may see that these fellowes meane no lesse to ouerthrow the state priuiledges and iurisdiction of the Vniuersities then of the bishops Marke it therefore you my masters of the Vniuersities These fellowes whom you foster in your bosomes meane to touch your freehold also neither can they conceale their malice against all men of learning To answere this absurd question I say that I cannot chuse but wonder that any shoulde bee so blasphemous and wicked as to compare Christ Iesus the sonne of God vnto Iohnson a factious companion and a wicked heretike Out of Cambridge hee was expulsed for his mutinous Sermon and other leude behauiour From thence he went to Middleborough a retrait of such kinde of fellowes There hee declined into Barrowisme wherein hee now continueth hauing augmented his opinions with many newe fancies of his owne Bambridge a man somewhat wiser then Iohnson yet neyther to be compared with Christ nor any verie discreete or modest Christian Christ neuer declaimed against the state of priests nor did hee spreade newe doctrines nor did he spurne against gouernours These haue done al these things and it is the cōmon practise of all such as bee of this sort Christ did not refuse to answere directly and confessed that he was the sonne of God These stand not vpon their innocencie but vpon tearmes of lawe Neyther doth the example of our Sauiour fit them For hee being asked of his doctrine in generall coulde not otherwise answere then in generall These refuse to answere in particular poyntes which he did neuer and therefore iustly were committed A matter iustifiable both by the lawes of God also the lawes ciuill canon and common If being to answere in the Starre Chamber or Chancerie vnto certaine articles they shoulde answere That they deliuered nothing but publikely and will the examiner to aske them that heard and saw they would bee sent to other places to aduise vpon the matter Further I say it will not fall out in proofe that those men which haue bene conuented before the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical are either godly or wise or ministers therefore false it is that he affirmeth them to bee godly ministers and very scandalous to the state whom he setteth forth as a state persecuting Christ Iesus whereas in deed these men by defacing the Church and the gouernours thereof by teaching of erronious doctrine and by raising of stirres about a new gouernment which was neuer heard of in Christs Church do shew themselues enemies of Christ of his Church and of his Gospel and therefore together with Iohnson of whom themselues are now ashamed to bee cast out of the Church vnlesse they shew more signes of amendment Quaere Putcase Quaest 18. if by the iudiciall lawes by the Court in Chauncerie or Starre Chamber any man be forced to sweare before hee knowe the cause at least in generall whereunto he is to take his oath Suppose a man should graunt so much Answere albeit the vse be not alwayes so what will he conclude That the high commissioners proceede contrarie to lawe His purpose is so to doe but his argument will not so conclude vnlesse he shewe that they doe not also declare in generall the summe of the matter to which euery one is to answere But that he cannot doe and therefore I returne him backe to his prompters to frame his case better and doe reiect him as alledging matters not concludent In the meane while let him vnderstand thus much that the proceeding of Ecclesiasticall courtes in exacting of othes is not onely confirmed by all lawes but also by the practise of Geneua the patriarchall sea of puritans Quaere whether Bishops be not bound to confirme children Putcase Quest 19. aswel as Ministers to marrie with a Ring And whether may not popish young men not being confirmed refuse the Communion He would conclude Answere that because Bishops neglect some part of their duetie it is lawfull for his consortes to breake all lawes but the sequele is naught That children are not confirmed the fault is in parents that bring them not of these seducers that preach against confirmation not in Bishops And therefore if any refuse to receiue the Communion it is no reason he shoulde receaue benefite by his owne negligence but rather be punished for both faultes In that he ioyneth popish young men together with fantasticall young Ministers which refuse to marrie with the Ring he doeth not amisse for they doe both consent in oppugning the state and therefore are both to be punished neither will the pleading of the Bishops negligence if any be serue either of them Quaere Putcase Quest 20. whether an Ecclesiasticall Iudge may punish Bristowe for writing that our Communion booke is an apish imitation of the Masse-booke seeing the statute giueth onely that authoritie to Iustices of peace and whether Bristowe deprauing the Communion booke may be depriued of all his spirituall promotions for his first offence c. Item whether the lawe doeth not fauour the puritan as much as the papist The case is absurdly put Answere for it supposeth matters vnprobable as that Bristowe should haue certein spiritual promotions in England had onely offended in speaking against the Communion booke whereas the man did wilfully flye out of his countrie for his mislike of the state and practised diuers treasons and for the same being apprehended committed to prison died there Onely this thing is herein commendable that puritans papistes are very fitly ioyned together in this case Both deny the supremacie alike both depraue the gouernmēt-alike both rayle against our Communion booke alike and therefore that all may be alike both deserue to be vsed alike To the question I answere That the lawe accepteth not of persons but whether Th. Cartwright or Penrie or Bristowe or Allen
or any other offend it doeth decree them to be punished if they be caught Neither haue they wrong that are depriued of their ecclesiasticall liuings for their first offence in deprauing the Communion booke For the statute doeth not onely authorize ciuile Iudges to proceede ciuillie but also ecclesiasticall Iudges to proceede to depriuation according to ecclesiasticall lawes But this companion either did not reade the statute or would not report it for then his falshood should haue appeared and his calumniation in leauing a prouiso out of the statute should haue bene reproued Concerning the Communion booke I say it is not materiall what either Bristowe or this Put-case saith of it being both enemies of the state and lying without reason and conscience The puritans haue gone about to reforme it but their new booke is such as they may be greatly ashamed of it being full of false doctrine and fauouring a fond and loose gouernement and fraught with most vaine discourses and verball speeches Quaere Putcase Quest 21. whether adulterie is to be punished by the Ordinarie seeing the punishmēt thereof without any sauing to the spiritual court is giuen by statute to Iustices of peace and whether a man may be punished by two corporall or pecuniarie punishments in two seuerall Courtes for one and the same cause The put-case tryeth himselfe to be a very proper fellow Answere to become a procter speaker in the behalfe of adulterers fornicators Percase it concerneth him neerer then I am aware of but let him against the next time vnderstand the case better that he speaketh in For it is a shame for a procter in these cases not to vnderstand the difference betwixt adulterie fornicatiō and also to say that the lawe giueth the punishement of adultery to Iustices only for in that statute there is not so much as mentiō of adulterie but of bastardy And how bastards may be gottē in lawful wedlocke he wil hardly define considering the Common law which saieth that all children borne in matrimonie the husband being Intra quatuor maria are lawfull For my part so that adulterie and fomication bee punished seuerely I doe not care That the statute doeth not hinder the ecclesiastical Iudges proceeding it is euident for that there is no clause to annull his course neither is it the intendement of the statute to fauour such lewde persons But saith he it is no reason that one should be punished both in the ecclesiasticall ciuill courts for one fault wherein he doth not only contrarie vs but Th. Cartwright also who giueth the cognition of felonies and treasons to his newe consistorie and would haue offenders herein to acknowldge their faultes there also which is directlie contrarie to the statute lawes To answere his question I deny that offenders which are for incontinencie cōuented are twise punished for one fault for both the Ecclesiasticall and ciuile court make vp their full punishment Neither doe they against lawe that for reasonable causes the partie consenting do commute the penance This I wot if the ecclesiastical Iudges would deale as some Iustices of peace haue done in this case that fornication such matters should for the most part passe without examination or controlement Quaere if any Ordinaries haue contriued promulgued Putcase Quest 22. and published Articles in his own name without assent of her maiestic vnder seale and inforced her highnes subiectes to subscribe vnto the same and for not subscribing haue suspended or depriued them whether an Ordinarie thus doing 25. H. 8. c. 19. 1. Eliz. c. 1. may not be imprisoned and fined at the Queenes pleasure If the Put-case would haue made any inquirie Answere whether Th. Cartwright his fellowes haue offended against the statute prohibiting the making of ecclesiasticall Canons hee might haue found it out easily For the acts are euery where extant their doings knowen And yet are they not fined nor al of them imprisoned for it Neither do the ecclesiasticall Ordinaries refuse to bee punished if they can bee conuicted of any such notorious offence The subscriptions which haue bene required were no newe lawes as these fellowes conceaue but confirmations and allowances of the olde yet nothing hath bin herein done but by allowance As for the proceedinges vsed against the Consistorialls they haue bene most milde and gentle not for denyall of subscription as this man pretendeth but for other factious seditious and lewde behauiour obiected to them and remayning in record whose cause let him moue as oft as he will yet shall he neuer haue honor by it Quaere Putcase Quest 23.24 25. whether an Ordinarie may cite a man to appeare before him in his court to depose as witnesse c. Item whether a man shall be examined by othe of any thing that soundeth to his reproch c. Item whether if an Ordinary cite men Ex officio to sweare to accuse themselues in causes neither Matrimoniall nor Testamentary a prohibition wil lie against him or not Item whether the cause depending in the Starre chamber the Ecclesiastiall Iudges shoulde not cease their proceedings And last of all whether the Iudges and wisest lawyers doe not condemne the proceedings of prelates To most of this I haue already spoken Answere and doubt not but therby there appeareth neither reasō nor honestie nor law nor ought else saue malice in this demaundants questions Yet thus much I answere further First that if the Iudge could not call witnesses before him there would bee no triall nor proofe in matters of doubt Secondly that in diuers criminall causes both Gods lawes and the lawes of this realme doe require that the partie answere vpon his othe Thirdly that there lyeth no prohibition for that the Ordinarie dealeth in causes orderly and according to warrant of lawe Neither is it reason that the Ecclesiasticall Iudges should cease doing of iustice against all the perturbers of this Church because there was sometimes one matter depending in the Starre-chamber against some fewe of them For where the ecclesiasticall Iudge is prohibited to proceede in one cause yet doth he notwithstanding proceede in others of like nature concerning other parties Much rather then ought they to proceede not being prohibited and in cases that are diuerse especially now that the cotumacious dealing of the Puritans is by the iudgement of the reuerend Iudges and most sufficient lawers in England condemned and the cause now dismissed the courte and diuers consultations brought after prohibitions graunted out of some courts in that cause Neither doe I thinke that either maister Cooke a man too learned not to knowe and two wise to fauour such perturbers of the state as the seare or any Iudge or learned lawyer wil condemne the proceedings of ecclesiasticall courtes in these cases as being contrary to lawe The writte in the Register which seemeth to giue leaue to Ordinaries to sweare men in causes Testamentarie and Matrimoniall is proued to be miscōstrued
by Fitzherbert For otherwise that writte should be contrarie to infinite other lawes Vpon this error what maruell is it if Crompton a man of no iudgement hath bene deceaued seeing Fitzherbert hath also mistaken such matters Neither is it maruell that lawyers speaking for their clyents doe speake otherwise then lawe For neuer before this time was it heard that the pleading of lawyers shoulde be accounted to be lawe further then they bring lawe and reason out of lawe To make a somme therefore of these matters Master Cooke who now for his manifolde good partes is made her maiesties Solicitor shall yeelde no thankes to this Libeller for bringing his name in question to bee a fauourer of malcontentes and an enemie to the Ecclesiasticall state Neither shall any credite you hereafter for this your notorious belying the Iudges For it is well knowen that the Iudges haue resolutely both condemned the disloyall practises of this sorte of men and also allowed the proceedings of the Ecclesiasticall courtes Nor shall any allowe your malice that with false reportes goe about to enkindle a dislyking among Iudges And therefore vnlesse you set downe the state of the controuersie better and reason more sufficiently both your selfe as an ignorant Put-case and your cause as repugnant to lawe will be condemned Quaere Putcase Quaest 26. if the high Commissioners for Ecclesiasticall causes may cite men Ex officio to accuse themselues in matters neither Testamentarie nor Matrimoniall and may committe the Queenes subiectes to prison especially for refusing to take the othe And whether they ought not to take bayle and whether the writte De homine replegiando doeth not lye in that case Item what satisfaction Doctor Coosin Doctor Stanhoppe and Doctor Bancrofte will make to those that are so wrongfully imprisoned Item whether for that matter they may keepe men in prison without calling them to answere and finally whether they deserue not like punishment therefore themselues Here is great noyse Answere little wooll many wordes little witte much malice little or no reason For the high Commissioners they bee many of them men of great honor and such as will doe no wrong to any nor will proceede without sufficient warrant If they haue passed the limites of their Commission why is not remedie of lawe sought For satisfaction to these doughtie demaundes I aunswere First that no man is called to accuse himselfe but to aunswere accusations obiected by others Secondly that they haue power to call offenders before them and to examine them and that their iurisdiction were vaine if they might not punish the contumacious Thirdly that if such as are committed to prison for contempt might be bayled there were then no meanes to punish a contempt and that offenders put in prison for contempt are not baylable Fourthly that the writte De homine replegiando is not in this case grauntable as all lawyers can tell him Fiftly that they may deale in many causes besides Matrimoniall and Testamentarie Sixtly that the learned men there mentioned haue great wrong to bee thus contumeliously abused by this libeller they hauing done wrong to no man Seuenthly that men committed for disobedience are not to bee released but vpon their conformitie And finally that such libellers as take vpon them to raile at Iudges and to oppugne lawful proceedings are to haue their mouthes muzzeled vp and their malice repressed Quaere Whether any Ecclesiasticall Iudge hath conuented Putcase Quest 27. examined and committed any for matters felonious touching the Queenes crowne and dignitie And whether these practises doe not instanter instantius and instantissimè craue the Praemunire That his companions are in case of Praemunire Answere it is out of question for that they haue contrarie to the prerogatiue of the crowne brought in forreine lawes and forreine iurisdiction of more then papall Elders and made diuers Ecclesiasticall constitutions contrarie to the lawes of the realme Nay it were to be wished that they had onely offended against the statute of Prouisors But their deniall of the supremacie is a further point What then doeth that craue Let him speake in his Proctors stile It craueth consideration and the perturbers of the state craue a wiser Proctor As for Ecclesiasticall Iudges it is well knowen that they doe not deale in matters of felonie their actes are cleare if any man doubt they will refolue him Quaere Putcase Quest 28. whether any may bee imprisoned without warrant of law c. Can this libeller shew any warrant Answere he hath to accuse men vniustly If not why doeth he proceede in accusing and is so slowe in prouing If any be imprisoned vnlawfully the lawe is open Neither needeth he to tell vs of Sir Iohn Markeham in this case For that which Sir Iohn Markeham saith we acknowledge for it maketh nothing for the libellers cause Quaere Putcase Quest 29. whether it be not lesse danger to blaspheme the name of God then to speake against a Lord Bishop And whether moe Ministers haue not bene depriued within this seuen yeeres for ceremonies of men then for dronkennesse whoredome c. If it were so dangerous to speake against bishops Answere as this fellow pretendeth they would not be so reuiled nor reuelled at by such reuellers as this The cōparison which he maketh is odious Moe be punished for abusing the Consistorie then for abusing the name of God more doe these consistorials striue about the authoritie of their seate then about Gods honor But what then because some of them offend will they haue all Consistories abolished And therefore let him cease to talke of Bishops and looke bakeward home to the Consistorie that it be well swept and garnished To the second I answere that none are depriued for ceremonies but such as be rebellious against lawes and with no admonitions will be reformed which contumacie is a most odious crime and further I say that the offences which come to the cognition of ecclesiasticall Iudges are as strictlie there dealt withall as in any other of her Maiesties courtes Quaere Putcase Quest 30. why the Ministers may not refuse to weare a Surplesse as a Bishop to vse a Pastorall staffe Because the one is commaunded by Lawe Answere the other is not The Rubrike whereby they would proue the Pastorall staffe concerneth onely orders and ornaments to bee vsed in Sacraments and seruice of the Church and none other matters but suppose both were commaunded yet is it no plea for offenders to say because Iudges offende in some things that they may offende in others which is the course of these men Belike these are the times wherein offenders cal Iudges to answere and felons giue sentence against their superiours Quaere whether seekers of reformation suffer for religion Putcase Quest 31. and conscience in matters of discipline seeing their life is offered them by bishops if they will recant their opinion And whether the Popishbishops persecuted any that differed
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
titles of ciuill honour giuen to princes as that of maiestie highnesse grace and such like Buchan de iure regni and with the title of Lord giuen to Noblemen and whether this poynt of discipline doeth not shewe that these fellowes meane to deale with Lordes in time as well as now they are busie with bishops 65 Quaere of master Egerton the renowned paraphraste at the Blacke Friers whether it be agreed vpon in any of their synoddicall assemblies that it shall not be lawfull for her Maiestie or the princes of this Realme hereafter to goe to the Parliament with such honourable attendance as heretofore they haue vsed the first day that it is holden in that hee did write to his brother Fenne as misliking the same and sayde 2 Eger to Fenne that shee went thither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with great ostentation and pompe which wordes Saint Paul vseth condemning the vanitie of 3 Actes 25.23 Agryppa and Beronice 66 Quaere why Ecclesiasticall iudges may not proceede in causes ex officio to examine men vpon their othes aswell as 4 Caluins epistles fol. pag 64. Caluin did at Geneua who put the chiefe men of the towne to their othes whether they had danced or no in widowe Balthazar 's house 67 Quaere whether it be not as lawfull for euery consistorie to depose a ciuill magistrate from his place as it was for 5 Ibidem Caluin to cause one of the sindickes of Geneua for dauncing priuately in the widowe Balthazar 's house to be deposed and if dauncing be so punished whether greater offences in princes shall not be more deepely punished 68 Quaere whether that godly and zealous man of God as they call him Giles Wigginton was not 6 Conspiracie for discipline acquainted with Copingers pretence of extraordinary calling and confirmed him in it whether hee brought not Hacket first acquainted with Copinger and Arthington and iustified vnto them Hackets pretended torments and whether he was not acquainted with their cryes made in the streetes and did not vnder his hand set downe certaine reasons to proue that vpon occasion men of extraordinarie callings might crye vp and downe the streetes and whether also he made not certeine rimes and caused them to be printed and sent them abroade a little before Copingers Arthingtons proclamation wherein is conteined That a countrie clowne should teach a prince to weare a crowne And whether Hacket was not that clowne and whether Hacket Copinger and Arthington were not with him in the counter the morning before they beganne to rise and whether these practises and seditious rimeries be sufferable by the lawes of the Consistorie 69 Quaere whether Hacket in sondrie of his examinations confessed not that the godly and zealous preacher of discipline Gi. 1 Conspiracie for discipline Wigginton affirmed That if the Magistrates gouerned not well the people might drawe themselues together to see a reformatiō made whether Hacket casting some doubtes and as it should seeme mentioning her Maiestie Wigginton answered not thus you speake of a Queene of a maygame whether Hacket also affirmed not that if Wigginton were well sifted he would declare matter of treason which if the rest of his fellowes had not bene in time reueiled would haue cost a number of innocent men their blood and finally whether these be holy practises for the glorie of their discipline 17 Quaere whether Pet. Wen. writ not a letter to Copinger dated the 25. of Ianuarie 1590. wherein he taketh notice That Copinger was labouring about matters of importance and prayeth that God would direct his labours both in matter and manner and willeth him to vse good aduice and then saith as Iosuah said sometime but in a farre diuerse course be bolde and of good courage feare not to be discouraged And whether he be not to be dealt withall as an abettor to the soresaid treasonable practises for the glorious cause of pretended sinceritie 17 Quaere whether Io. Thr. was not well acquainted with Hacket Copinger and Arthingtons intentes in that Copinger writ thus vnto him My owne deare 2 Note the brotherhood of puritans whereto it tendeth brother my selfe and my two brethen who lately were together with you in Knightrider streete he meaneth Hacket and Arthington doe much desire conference with you the busines is the Lordes owne and he doeth deale in it himselfe in a strange extraordinarie manner in poore and simple creatures much is done since you sawe vs which you would reioyce to heare of Likewise let it be inquired whether he be not an abettor and concelour of their trecherous practises and whether he holdeth that he ought not in conscience to reueile his deare brethrens treasons 72 Quaere whether the said Io. Thr. did not write a letter with his owne hand to Copinger dated the 18 of the fist 1 This is the new absurd consistorian stile moneth he meaneth as I suppose May which was little more then sixe weekes before the outrage committed by the new disciplinarian prophets and whether in the same letter deuised as may be suspected in answere of Copingers letter He reioyceth not that Copinger would 2 All this is in his owne letter to be showen vnder his hand writing vouchsafe to call him brother and saith that at his being at London he heard some buzzes abroade of a sole and singuler course and wisheth that all that beare good will to the holy cause in that perilous age would take both their eyes in their handes and be sure of their gounde and warrant before they stirred to put matters in execution and proceedeth in these wordes I know my good broiher that the greatest workes of the Lorde are wrought by the weakest instruments c. and therefore were it not for my sinnes and vnworthines I could easily perswade myselfe in regarde of my weakenesse that the Lorde might effect something by me c. but this worke that you speake of howsoeuer the instrument be compassed with weakenes must sure bee wrought by a more 3 A sanctified puritan sanctified heart then myselfe can yet boast of and therefore though in affection and goodwill I ioyne yet I resigne the honour of the worke to those that the Lorde hath more thereto enabled c. Salute good Giles with many thankes whose debtor I am in the Lorde blessing vpon Sion confusion vpon Babell Quaere I say these thinges considered whether the writer was not accessarie to the saide conspiracie and a principall man in encouraging the actors which hee calleth brethren in their wicked courses and whether all his Libels and scoffes published vnder the name of Martin as namely his theses protestations dialogues arguments laying men out in their colours and all his doings tending to the aduauncement of the holy cause as they call it did not tend wholy to an insurrection and whether hee liueth not vnder mercifull gouernours that call not the man to answere for