A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physitian AND AN English PAPIST WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed With Reference only to the Government of ENGLAND in Church and State In some Answer to Peter Walsh and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor. Papa stupor Mundi non Deus non Homo sed utrumque Gloss in proem Clem. Moscan de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11. LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Pauls M DC LXXV THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time when by Proclamation Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of London and 't is not yet out of Season nor will be till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated after which it cannot be long ere they be ended I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State their Laws Doctrines or Discipline therefore while they have been exercising us with Disputes about those things they had two Ends viz. Either to lead us into some Precipice or to Lap-wing us from the proper tendency of our Enquiries which in truth is our home Concerns and so a Controversy only between English Papists and English Catholicks called Protestants for Distinction with reference to their Prince who governeth by Laws diverse from all the Nations of the World and so is not to be argu'd out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms But as a Person of Honour hath lately begun so this Author has set forward the proper Contest still meaning between English Papists and English Protestants the latter of whom affirm as follows 1. That the King of England is Emperour and sole Monarch of England and established by a Law diverse from all other Nations 2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See from which lies no Appeal to any other Patriarch 3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions with reference to this life and the ends of Government are rightfully derived from the King of England being naturally in him as a mixt Person and Custos utriusque tabulae according to Rom. 13. 4. That he is a Traytor that denyes this or affirms any forreign Prince Prelate or Potentate to have any Jurisdiction in England c. or diminishes the Kings Legal Style 5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State as to Jurisdictions until Christian Monarchs divided Jurisdictions and delegated Civil and Ecclesiastical Persons to take Conusance and judge of Causes separate and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesiastical in respect of the Delegates only and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge 6. The King hath power naturally within his Dominions by such his delegates respectively to declare what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise and to make and interpret Laws for the Government of Church and State to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline not against the word of God to add to such Laws Sanctions to punish Offenders against such Laws 7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him as Essential Flowers of his Crown as antient as the Crown it self in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Government by Original Constitutions as the King cannot by any rightfâ—l Act he can do grant them away to any Forreign Power Person or Potentate or to others but by way of delegation as to the declarative and executive Part. 8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land and so was utterly void and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England c. 9. That all Papists denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship against our established Laws are grievous Offenders 10. That passive Obedience is no Obedience In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous intire active and with respect to the Law of Nature antecedent to the Kings Command which injoyns intire Obedience to the Kings lawful Command for the Lords sake not barely for the Command sake 11. That the King cannot dispense with or free the Subject from such natural Obedience but only from the penalty added by and annexed to his Command 12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship the same being superstitious and idolatrous and against the Established Laws 13. That no English man whatsoever how far so ever they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them unless they swear due Allegiance to the King and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church and by that Oath renounce all the Popes Authority whatsoever over them and his Power to dispense with that Oath and that they will be obedient to all the Kings Laws 14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome â—xcommunicated or censur'd by thaâ— Church and yet holding Communion with that Church iâ— not to be trusted here although he takes the Oaths above mentioned In as much as he is of no Church being wilfully divided from ours and by Censure divided from the other and so disobedient to all Governors a lawless and perjured Person and so in a present State of Damnation nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here though he takes the said Oaths in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced 15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgment and Reason But purely by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Elizabeth's time for before that they joyn'd with us and were called Church Papists and at the same time they in opposition to our Kings Laws do so firmly yield to that Inhibition and disobey several other Commands of the Pope even in some matters of Faith It 's refer'd to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates whether such co 〈…〉 ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated or even conâ—iv'd at here 16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incorporated together that if Communion with that Church be admitted or tolerated here it must necessarily be introductory of that Courts Vsurpation 17. That there are now great differences of opinion among the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope And if they were all of the mind with the most moderate Pretenders yet what Security can be given that they will alwayes be so or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgment or is it
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the
power He can in a manner do all things that God can do which several Tenets are holden by true Roman Catholicks and others have affirmed that the Pope is above Law against Law without Law and can do all things and that in all Oaths the Popes Power is excepted And lastly if some of your Superiours should be true to their word or Oath such as it is and so commenced upon and explained as before what Assurance can be given That such Mushrom Papists as you shall be alwaies guided by them and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps Garnets or Venners or that under colour or pretence of meek Nothings who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God Rapts and Extasies other Baronian wretches may not intrude using the same vizor for a while and when occasion and opportunity shall serve then cry aloud as some have done Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth Then in earnest would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholicks that name of names and most glorious of Titles as indeed it is but venerated by that great Franciscan with that nick name Roman and especially Walshes Letter c. p. 5. against all which I hope Soveraign Notice and Caution will arm it self and that before it be too late for as Plantus Qui cavet ne decipiatur vix cavet cum etiam cavet quando enim cavisse ratuâ— est sape is Cautor captus est Pap. You talk of Mad-men I think you will show your self such I 'me glad I am near my journeys end I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge and go the back way I like not your company now and shall not trust my self with you in the City least you discover me Phy. Truly Sir I have made as much discovery of you as I desire and I discover besides your Religious impertinencies your Obedience to the Kings commands to be just as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies wheel viz. mearly to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more I wish you again better informed and so farewell But Sir pray stop but a little while and I 'le tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Souldier of the Bishop of Rome Old Rome older then your Bishop of old Rome Caesar who seeing this Souldier fighting with most accurate valour beset with many Foes yet forced his way through them all and escaped through great mires waters and great difficulties with only the loss of his shield ran to the Souldier to imbrace him and to incourage and reward his incomparable prowess the true hearted Souldier out of Sence to his Duty and Obedience which by the Law written in his heart he owed to his Prince was so far from being transported with the glory of his Action or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation that with Tears in his eyes he asked pardon of him that he had left his Target behind him And Sir before we part I have another thing come in my head and that is I have a desire to send you a memorable Record which I have in my Study it is the Opinion of the Judges Nobility and Clergy of England concerning the Kings Supreme Ecclesiastical Power with reference both to Papists and Puritans pray how may I direct it to you Pap. Sir I shall give it the perusal you may inclose it in a Paper directed to Mr. Justin Hide and leave it at the Book-sellers at Graies-Inn Gate Phy. I shall Sir and once more Farewel THE RECORD OF 2o. Febr. 2. JACOBI MEmorandum that by Command from the King all the Justices of England with diverse of the Nobility viz. the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellour the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer Viscount Cranborn Principal 2 Croke 37. Moore 755. Secretary the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral the Earls of Northumberland Worcester Devon and Northampton the Lord Zouch Burleigh and Knowles the Chancellour of the Dutchy the Arch-bishop of Canterbury the Bishop of London Popham chief Justice Bruce Master of the Rolls Anderson Gawdy Walmsley Femier Kingsmith Warberton Savel Daniel Yelverton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Chamber where the Lord Chancellour after a long speech made by him concerning Justices of Peace and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assise and a Dâ—â—ouse concerning Papists and Puritans declaring how they both vvere Disturbers of the State and that the King intending to suppress them and to have the Laws put in Execution against them demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things First vvhether the Deprivation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners for refusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed by the last Canons vvas lawful Whereto all the Justices answered That they had conferred thereof before and held it to be lawful because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power vvhich he hath delegated to the Commissioners vvhereby they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen doth not confer any new Power but explain and declare the ancient Power And therefore they held it clear That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy and might deprive them if they obeyed not And so the Commissioners might deprive them but they could not make any Constitutions vvithout the King and the divulging of such Ordinances by Proclamation is a most gratious Admonition and for as much as they have refused to obey they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners ex Officio without Libel and â—re tenus convocati Secondly Whether a Prohibition be grantable against the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party Whereto they all answered That the Statute is intended where the Ecclesiastical Judge proceeds ex Officio ore tenus Thirdly Whether it were an offence punishable and what punishment they deserved who framed Petitions and collected a Multitude of hands thereto to prefer to the King in a publick Cause as the Puritans had done vvith an Intimation to the King That if he denyed their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented Whereto all the Justices answered That it vvas an Offence finable at Discretion and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment for they tended to the raising of Sedition Rebellion and Discontent among the people To which resolution all the Lords agreed And then many of the Lords declared that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the Common-Law either in the Kings Bench or by the King and his Council or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star Chamber And the Lords severally declared how the King vvas discontented vvith the said false Rumour and had made but the day before a protestation unto them that he never intended it And that he vvould spend the last drop of blooâ— in his Body before he vvould do it And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion then vvhâ— he truly professed and maintained that God vvould take them oâ— of the World FINIS
possible that the Pope will grant Orders to such as he now censures as these are so that an Admittance of these few stragling Pretenders to favour as it is against Religion to tolerate Persons in their present desperate State so it is certainly against all Christian Prudence and Policy of State to allow the unaccountable pretences to accept the faithless Ingagements or to credit the unintelligible Faith of those Papistical Nothings These things our Author points at in this Discourse all which if opposed or doubted of will be more at large maintained and the matters of Fact therein cleared by another manner of Testimony then that of bringing the Virgin Mary's Chappel from Nazareth to Dalmatia and from thence to Loretto nay let any one of the five hundred Native Priests that Peter Walsh saies lately were in England undertake any one Link of this Chain which conduces to the End of the Controversy and the whole Cause shall depend on the success So that this Book serves to state the Controversy aright and in some measure to confirm the reformed Catholicks to convince the Heteroclite Adversaries and to justify our Kings necessary Cautions against the Invaders of his loyal and establish'd Authority A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY c. PAPIST Well overtaken Sir how far travail you this way Physitian Truly Sir I cannot well tell I know the place I am going to but know not how far 't is thither Pap. Perhaps then two such Travailers have seldom met for I know how far I am to travail but know not the place I go to Phy. Methinks Sir you undertake an odd Journey Pray what occasions it and the uncertainty thereof Pap. Sir have you not heard of Ogilbies Wheel that has run over all the great Roads in England Phy. Yes that was to ascertain the Miles for Travailers and is to be inserted into his Britannia being one part of his Atlas now coming forth a very laborious and useful Work Pap. Whether the design was to advantage Travailers or the Post-Office I 'le not determine but sure I am it 's become prejudicial to me for here is the Case I am obliged to go ten miles from London and so thought to have gone to Rumford But it seems by that Wheel Rumford is made 12 miles off from London and then if I stay 2 miles short what know I where I shall lodge Phy. I believe Sir your head is full of Proclamations and that troubles you more then the Wheel Pap. I can bear the Proclamation patiently and be obedient to the Kings Command as well as any Subject he has Phy. Say you so were I in your Case I should chuse to go to Rumford and not take up at Cold lodging for while you are commanded to go ten Miles from London you may go as far as you please beyond it Pap. If I had not been commanded to go ten miles I would not have gone it and being commanded to go so far I am not such a fool as to go further for something that I know Phy. What think you then of what is said If any one compels you to go with him a Mile go with him twain Pap. Would you think it reasonable if one going five Miles for a Physitian that another should compel him to go ten Miles another way Phy. No but it 's meant if any by the power of the Magistrate compels you to go a Mile shew your Obedience to the Magistrates Command in doing more rather then less or not at all for so the word in the Original for Compel signifies and you may see a Sermon on that Text. 13. Rom. Pap. Well Sir make what Interpretation of it you please I know who can do it better and I have a surer Guid to trust to that cannot Err. Phy. I think I understand you Sir and what perswasion you are of Pap. Pray then Sir let me understand who you are and what occasions your Journey Phy. Why I am a Protestant Physitian going to visit a patient some Miles onward to Rumford Pap. Methinks then Sir you should make more haste strange how lazy and indifferent are Physitians grown in the great Concernment of mens Lives And all this Evil is occasioned by the Reformation as it 's called which might better have been in Physick then Religion Phy. As for the Reformation in Religion I see not how it affects the Practice of Physick but for my not making more haste to my Patient you must know First That too violent Motions may irritate the pungent and saline particles hid in the Nervous Juice and cause a Fermentation in the Serum of the blood which preying on the vital Spirits will conclude in a malignant and putrid feaver But by a Sedate Managery of the parts the morbifick matter remains undisturbed until it may be exterminated by proper Evacuations viz. Emeticks Diureticks Sudorificks or ordinary Purgations Secondly The Distemper my Patient labours under appears by the Symptomes indicated by the Vein to be a Chronick Distemper and become Cathectical and so not to be accosted by Acute Medicines and cured of a suddain Thirdly and lastly a Physitian who makes too much haste after a Patients Summons gives thereby the Patient occasion to think that the Physitian has but few to look after but small Practice so will have but mean thoughts of him and hinder the operation of the Physick whereas confidence in the Physitian does half the Cure and which is worst of all a small Fee will be thought sufficient for him And I see no reason why I should not put a value on my Medicine as well as you on your Mass But Sir I pray why are you so penurious of your Obedience to the Kings Commands that you will go but just ten miles though to your Detriment Pap. Why Sir I 'le tell you the King shall see that I will obey him exactly though to my own prejudice and my opinion is that whosoever of the Roman Catholick Religion that live under the Kings protection should prefer the peace of the State before his own Advantages and so I have learnt from wise men of this Nation Phy. Well Sir omitting that this Minute Testimony of your Obedience conduces nothing to the peace of the State in as much as the going above ten Miles is no breach of the Kings Command tell me I pray why you did not mention the peace of the Church as well as of the State which you prefer to your own Advantages Pap. I must declare to you I am a Catholick of the Church of Rome and not of the Court of Rome mind that for this distinction has much in it and I ow as much Allegiance to the King as any Protestant of you all and am ready to take up Arms to defend his Royal person as many Catholicks did in the late Wars Phy. I am satisfied that many Catholicks were in the late Kings Army and did Service there but I always was satisfied also that it was for their