successe discoursing of their deare affection to vs. say they as if this were questioned or to the purpose but they wish and will and what they can most readily procure quantum in ipsis as much as they can and they can doe much whatsoeuer in God may stead them or doe them good They loue vs indeed no question of that and so consequently according vnto the nature of loue in the effects thereof will and wish and seeke the good of those whom they loue Their loue is now greater being in Heauen vnto man then euer it was or could bee when and while they liued vpon Earth For Charitie is transcendent in those celestiall Citizens And therefore no question they pray for men vpon earth But how and for whom All Christians in generall their Brethren as yet in great tribulation the Church militant vpon the face of the Earth This they know the state of these and their necessities are knowen to them in Heauen and vpon knowledge they doe commiserate them and Commiseration procureth Intercession else were there no Communion of Saints no bond betwixt the militant and triumphant Church In specie for those Churches whereof themselues were parts noble and liuely members yet being in the flesh as more interessed there then otherwhere For if charitie bee ordinate here vpon earth diliguntur alieni magis proxiâ—â—i maximè proprij It cannot be imagined to bee disordinate it is not sure irregular in Heauen where order is most of all especially regarded as the Place and Persons where and by whom Gods will is performed so absolutly as that by the Doctor of Israel in his perfect patterne of Prayer wee are thither addressed for imitation thus Thy Will bee done in Earth as it is in Heauen But so for those ordinarily and of common course as that which they pray for is the generall good of all not the particular interest of any one Thus Gregorie Nazianzene was perswaded himselfe but did not presse others to beleeue it that his deceased Father then with God did specially intercede for his particular flock Orat. 19. pag. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I am verily perswaded and beleeue that my Father now with God and the rather because hee is with God doth by mediating and interceding with God for you doe you more good and stand you in greater stead by his prayers then hee did while he liued amongst you by his Doctrine This is the common voice with generall concurrence without contradiction of reuerend and learned Antiquitie for ought I euer could reade or vnderstand and I see no cause or reason to dissent from them touching Intercession in this kinde I adde in particular yet somewhat farther To which we had rather adde then detract from it Those with God may and doe recommend vnto God in their celestiall Prayers their kindred friends and acquaintance vpon Earth whom they knew in whose loue and familiaritie they had interest yet being in the flesh with whom they had conuersed more reseruedly But no other sort and manner for them then onely for such instant and exigent necessities But in reference to what they vvere here acquainted withall For such causes occasions and employments as being yet in viuis and conuersant with them they knew of vnderstood and were acquainted withall or interessed in and haue not forgotten being Resiants in those heauenly habitations and all teares wiped away from their own eyes For the Soule of man separated from the Body by Death and subsisting alone in all freedome Which they cannot but retayne in memorie happinesse and content with God cannot bee thought to empaire or suffer losse in any indowment naturall or acquisite which tend to perfection of state and being and I speake and intend this of those indowments formerly had in time of life For as concerning those newly acquired accruing in and to the state they then enioy with God speake they that can tell if yet they can tell what they speake Nor is it so strange For if that those who are restored againe by Christ and raysed vp from the dust of the earth to liue with him in glorie in the day of restauration of all by Christ and retribution of the Righteous shall perfectly know and take notice of those whom they neuer knew nor saw perchance nor heard of in the flesh as being post-nati vnto them so many hundreds or thousands of yeeres If they shall know Adam Seth Enoch Noah Abraham all the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles how can they forget the names and notions of them with whom they conuersed so many yeeres From whose societie and companie they so lately departed vnto whom they imparted of their owne secrets and with whose counsels they were acquainted with whom so long they liued together seruing one God together as friends Diues in Hell where the Soule if any where Since euen the soules in hell can doe it loseth her indowments knew Abraham whom he had neuer seene in Earth and acknowledgeth him to be the Author of his stock and people the Iewes Diues in Hell had not forgot the number and condition of his Brethren on earth and was also carefull and mindfull of them least they should come into that place of torment Whether it bee an Historie as Tertullian and many other suppose or else a Parable as others rather thinke yet euen so it will come home to purpose For parables are not Chimaraes or speculations meerely but deduced from condition of things that bee Hee saw him as hee could with his vnderstanding he tooke notice of him with his vnderstanding Hee lost not the memorie of the things hee had who acquired the knowledge of what he had not Had he lost what he had it had beene in vaine for Abraham to haue said Sonne remember Ex hac parabola discimuâ— well resolueth Euthymius quòd in futuro saeculo non solùm peccatores vident bonâ—s boni peccatores sed â—gâ—â—scunt etiam igrotos Nam Diues ab Abraham câ—gâ—oscâ—tur Lazarus à reprobo epulons saith Gregory Nor will nor effects of will are extinguished in them either Naturall in good things as the rich man desired his Brethrens good or Deliberatiue in bad as being immutable vnto good And doubtlesse if in Carcare it be retained much more it is eminent in palatio The Saints in glory haue a greater portion Glory being the Perfection of Grace and Grace the aduancer of Nature then the Reprobate in Hell can enioy of the acts and perfections of the Soule Vpon this ground and perswasion of the Soules indowments Celerinus in Cyprian writeth vnto Lucianus a man readie to be offered vp in persecution thus Rogo itaque Domine peto per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt caeteris Collegis tuis fratribus mejs Dominis referas abijs petas vt quicunque prior vestrûm coronatus fuerit istis Sororibus nostris Numeriae Candidae tale peccatum remittant
IMMEDIATE ADDRESSE VNTO GOD ALONE First deliuered in a Sermon before his MAIESTIE at Windsore Since reuised and inlarged to a just Treatise of INVOCATION of SAINTS Occasioned by a false imputation of M. ANTONIVS DE DOMINIS vpon the Authour RICHARD MOVNTAGV LONDON Printed by William Stansby for Matthew Lownes and William Barret 1624. TO THE RIGHT REVEREND FATHER IN GOD AND RIGHT HONORABLE LORD JOHN Lord Bishop of Lincolne Lord Keeper of the great Seale of his Majesties most Honorable Priuie Councell Visitor of the Collegiate Churches of Windsore and â—â—on Right Reuerend in Christ Right Honorable IT is now three yeeres and more that preaching at Windsore as my course then fell before his Majestie I tooke my Text Psal 50.15 which that Sunday was verbum dici in die suo Read in the publike Seruice of the Church according to directions in the Booke of Common prayer In Pulpits and in popular Sermons J nor like it in others nor Practise it my selfe to meddle much or far with any Point of abstruse or controuerted Diuinitie For common capacities are made and fitted for matter of meane and ordinarie apprehension Preaching is appointed to make men better in practique knowledge and so was euer vsed of the Ancients not acute and subtile for discourse and speculation which is the ordinarie pietie of these times But as then it fell out such was the Auditorie so extraordinarie The wordes as they fell in processe of handling that Psalme and of that importment Call vpon me in time of trouble So direct and plaine for addresse vnto God vnto Him alone for Immediate accesse without assistance or mediation J could not well waue the Case of Inuocation Aduocation and Intercession of Saints and Angels so much perswaded vrged practised and abused in the common vse and custome of the present Church of Rome And yet not so as to dwell vpon it wholly or to make it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 altogether Concluding it a point of plaine folly if no more for any man to implore the Helpe of others to vse Aduocates and Assistants vnto God in any exigence time of neede or necessitie who is so directed counselled and inuited by God himselfe to immediate accesse without mediation in Call vpon me Of folly and ridiculous absurditie as it is by them conceiued taught and laid downe euen by the most learned judicious and aduised amongst them though J know in point of practice and performance the simple vulgar people not acquainted with nor capable of Scholasticall niceties or difference in termes of Inuocation and Aduocation Helpe originall and deriued goe to it down right with direct addresse indeed vnto flat Impietie against God and Jdolatrie in their ordinarie deuotion vnto the Creature J was as Conclusiue against this custome as I could be as directly opposite vnto their Doctrine of Aduocation as Contradiction could make me and yet Right Honorable I haue beene vouched for an Abettor of their practice at least in part I am sure slandered in my Opinion and Preaching There was present at my Sermon that infamous Ecebolius of these times Religion is desultor Archbishop somtime of Spalata then Deane of that Church Marcus Antonius de Dominis This Man and Runaway from Religion a man if any other of his Coate and Calling apt enough to be circumcised and denie Christ Jesus if the Grand Signior would but make him chiefe Muftie so much would Ambition and Couetousnesse his bosome infirmities sway with Him in his late impudent leud shamelesse Recantation in which he professeth and proclaymeth himselfe vnto the world a Knaue in graine a man of a cauterised Conscience and prostituted Honestie vnto all euen Ciuill conuersation as without all modestie he belyeth that Church in generall which my selfe haue heard him often publiquely and priuatly commend and admire As he spareth not Particulars of most Eminent place so also amongst others hath he belyed me as if J concurred with himselfe now in opinion or auowed that ridiculous Romane Doctrine and Practice of Praying vnto Saints and Angels in time of need For He heard with great delight and content as he saith one of his then Canons of Windsore preaching before the Kings Maiestie maintayne That there was no cause why euery man might not turne himselfe vnto his Angell keeper and say Holy Angell keeper Pray for me Hee nameth me not in this passage I graunt but wrappeth vp a certaine quendam in generall and in doubtfull termes And had J not my selfe professed En adsum qui feci J well and quietly had rested blamelesse â—y a namelesse aspersion and left them to ghesse at randon or shoot at Rouers who would happely haue fastned it otherwhere But nothing was said why I should shunne the Charge or diuert the Imputation vpon any And because the first notice that euer I had hereof being from though at second hand your Lordship I could not possesse my Soule in patience without giuing your Lordship intimation how vntruly an aspersion of siding that way had by him so loose a Lozell beene cast on that society whereof himselfe sometimes had beene and my selfe am yet through his Majesties Grace a member the rather because wee haue all vnder his sacred Maiestie especially in Cases of this condition a Reference vnto your Honor as our Visitor May your Lordship then be pleased to take notice of his dealing conformable to the rest of his leuder actions in his turne-coating from side to side He stileth me One of his Canons of Windsore as if for That my dependance had beene vpon Him or my selfe and the rest of my Brethren there had beene his by appropriation What the course is in the Court of Rome J know not where Places of such qualitie are bought and sold But here J am sure He was but one of vs The fundamentall Statutes running thus De tredecim Canonicis quorum vnus Custos vel Decanus existat The Deane and Prebends there being no mans Canons but his Maiesties who by Right Originall is in his Royall Predecessors Founder and Patron of that College Secondly he doth not blâ—sh to write that he heard me with great delight and content Whereof He nor was nor could be capable For in his owne intent and meaning to heare is to vnderstand and apprehend This he did not this he could not doe For I preached in English vnto an English Auditorie though composed then of Royall and Noble presence English hee might heare but could not vnderstand except carptim and sparsim now and then here and there a word or halfe a sentence And yet I know he Read for I was present and subscribed he saith since against his conscience the more Knaue he to injoy a good Benefice for I was a witnesse thereto the Articles of 1562. in West-Ilsly Church in Barkshire But Reade I can that which J vnderstand not Vnderstanding and Reading are two things And yet this honest man as if he had vnderstood my Sermon from point to point shameth not to
Meritorious Aduocate of Intercession Therefore hauing occasion and Cause to Call vpon mee in time of trouble they imploy not Te ad Me Man vnto God immediately but doe it secundariè and by Mediators This is not vnlawfull in it selfe It is no exclusiue Call in thy owne Person For warrant and practise is for the Contrary Orate pro Inuicem is a Precept The Church prayed for Peter there is practise But such Mediators they vse in this Case as are supposed not to bee apti nati not accommodated to the purpose not fitted or disposed to bee employed in and therefore incapable of that office of Intercession Who if they were such as they take them to bee and it could appeare plainely that such indeed they were might very well bee imployed as Intercessors none sooner none better or with more aduantage then they euery way and happy such as could intreate their aduocation in regard of that great Grace Fauor they stand in with God as also that affection they beare vnto their brethren apprehension they haue more then holy Angels haue or can haue through their owne experience of Tribulation The Church of Rome is thus perswaded of them therefore they vse in all exegincies and times of trouble in all their addresses vnto God for helpe and succour to vse the assistance of holy Saints and Angels to haue recourse into them the blessed Virgin Saint Peter Saint Paul that so they may finde fauour and acceptance at Gods hands to be heard and deliuered the sooner in time of trouble Herein they are perswaded that they doe well and wisely and with great aduantage to obtaine their desires I am not yet so perswaded of this their vse and practise I see no reason yet to subscribe vnto their doctrine I may hereafter peraduenture be of their minde to say Sancta Maria ora pro me though it be vnlikely and I doe not thinke I shall If any Romane Catholike or all the Romane Catholikes liuing can euict by any one conuincing demonstration or bring but one irresistable argument from Reason Nature or from Grace Can proue it by Scripture so expounded by the Church for fiue hundred yeares after Christ So dogmatically concluded by cases so ruled by rules so giuen in general Counsels or in Prouinciall or Nationall confirmed by General By generall consent and practice so expressed and at full in the vse and euidence of that auncient Church to the determination and end of the Councell at Chalcedon about fiue hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ Finally to giue a little more aduantage by any one Father of credit amongst themselues that dogmatically resolueth it vt certum dâ— fide and I will subscribe and say together with them Orate pro me Hee or they that dare and can vndertake this taske performe it and I subscribe Till then my Resolution is and must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as I haue receiued so will I hold Yet she is more caâ—telous then Wise to goe about for Assistants when shee may goe a neerer way without them It is not to bee taught as a point of Faith nor to bee vrged vpon any with obseruation nor to be tendred with Anathema to the gainsayer nor to bee practized necessarily That it is builded vp out of meere coniectures and vncertainties what they can doe and how farre preuayle and therefore it is folly for mee or any man ordinarily to haue recourse vnto the Angels of God or vnto Saints at rest with God ordinarily and in point of Pietie and Deuotion to vse them as Aduocates and Mediators in my suites to Call vnto them to Call vpon God when my Selfe that am then interessed principally may commence my owne Suites commend my owne Case follow my owne businesse and effect my owne purposes personally beeing graciously inuited to doe it my selfe and immediately directed vnto God by himselfe in Call vpon me in time of trouble I say it is Folly and so it is in extremitie Her opinion in this and many other points is not so farre from Atheisme as her practice is neere vnto folly to Call vnto them in such sort as is accustomed in common sense of Reasonable men For lesse adoe by much would serue then is made in imploring this Saint and that a surer and a more warranted course might be taken then to goe about when wee may goe the neerer way Wee are not certaine at the best what they doe or can doe for vs in these cases that are so employed and implored by vs. I will not I dare not be so harsh and rigorous as to condemne them of Impietie for Calling vnto them For though more bee done vnto them then is fit or conuenient and more bestowed on them at least by Consequence then can consort with the Condition of their Creation yet nothing is detracted there from the Creator in giuing them that they are not capeable of It is no generall rule of necessarie Consequence They take from God who ouerlauishly giue any thing vnto men Thus it standeth in Case betwixt vs and them if we take them in the lumpe at whole sale in their Doctrine as it were I cannot say it doth so for their Practice as if that also were so gently to bee handled In this as in many other if not in all points of Practique Pietie Practice and Precept their Doctrine in Schooles and Discipline abroad Coelo Solo disparantur are so much at oddes in so many particulars as if the one had not to doe with the other or they that did the one were not the men interessed in the other In their Doctrine of defrauding the People of the Cup in the holy Sacrament of the Altar they plead it and conclude it in Schooles and Councels that the Cup must not bee giuen vnto the Laitie the People are to receiue but in one kind And yet their Practice is now of what standing I know not to giue them also of the Wine as I haue beene assured by some Roman Catholikes I can name my Neighbours and it hath beene auerred by their Priests Mary marke their iuggling and obserue them conuicted of foule Forgerie the Laitie drinke not of the Chalice though they drinke of the Wine of Consecration powred out of the Chalice into a Glasse which peraduenture altereth in their opinion the Propertie of the bloud of Christ and euacuateth the power and efficacie of the words of Consecration Whether this bee so or not I cannot sweare I haue nothing but hearesay that I haue and can name my Authors In their Doctrine of Images they disclayme Idolatry indeed and take the imputation with great offence and as the most part of them doe teach in their Bookes the vse of Images I see no cause to stile them Idolaters But sure the Peoples practice is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 next doore vnto it very like it if not the same A man one of their owne for his Profession Catholike Moderator a
was heard praying for Abimelech when hee liued vpon Earth Hee will therefore bee much sooner heard of God being now in Heauen for those that he commendeth vnto Him Ridiculous For this is not the Question whether hee shall now bee sooner heard or no but whether hee can as well recommend any now vnto God as hee did the Case of Abimelech beeing with Him Can hee as well heare and vnderstand those men that desire him now to recommend their cause vnto Christ as he could Abimelech when he requested him to pray for Him If hee can so well and easily vnderstand their Case I grant hee shall as soone nay sooner be heard See how toyishly these great Masters play with their owne fancies making much adoe with that which need not trouble their enquiries but balking the maine of which most men doe doubt and yet this is that Achilles for the Catholike Cause that vnanswerable Argument forsooth which the Master of Controuersies boasteth of could neuer be answered nor assailed We reade saith He in both Testaments Viuentes à viuentibus inuocatos his meaning is that men yet liuing haue desired the Prayers of their Brethren yet liuing also as for instance Rom. 15. the Apostle intreateth thus I beseech you Brethren assist mee with your Prayers vnto our Lord therefore Licebit etiam nunc eosdem Sanctos cum Christo regnantes inuocare Euery Child can giue a non sequitur to this foolish Reason Therefore it is lawfull to inuocate the same Saints now with Christ Lawfull for Saint Paul I suppose meaneth he not so Sure the Argument concludeth for Him if for any as though Saint Paul now stood in need of the Romans Prayers If lawfull for vs to doe now that which Saint Paul did then and this bee his meaning as it is but that I know him a man of extraordinary Learning I would suppose him scarce a Smatterer in common sense and reason so that needs Roscius noluit agere aut crudior fuit the man was not himselfe in this childish dispute their state being different their conditions diuers much and many alterations interuening euery way Were there but some circumstances not the same it were sufficient to alter the state of the Question But saith He the great Controuerser thus And therefore that they plead in vaine for Inuocation If wee may not much more and rather inuoke them now then Saint Paul might then speake vnto them it is either because they will not intermediate for vs and this is false Or because they cannot and that is false Or because it is not sitting they should as being an iniurie done to Christ vnto whom alone all our Addresse should bee The first hee prooueth because their Loue is inlarged and vpon the improouement of their Charitie their desires much greater to doe vs good The second because their Power is much larger now then it was then The third hee saith cannot be supposed for then Christ was also wronged in his Office if liuing men on Earth desire their Brethren in priuate or publike to pray for them Indeed I grant Christ is not wronged in his Mediation It is no impietie to say as they doe Sancta Maria ora pro me Sancte Petre ora pro me and so no wrong vnto Christ Iesus to vse mediation of Intercession vnto Him As it is taught I adde in their Schooles by their Doctors resolued by that Oracle of Trent But not as is practised in their vse and custome where simple men inuoke Saints as they doe God goe to their Deuotions vnto the blessed Virgin not only far more frequently then to Christ Iesus but without any difference at all goe to it downe right as to the Authors and Originals of the things they desire hauing them in their power to bestow or not They haue power much more then they had on Earth Not to giue but to intreate to preuaile with God now sooner in the state of blisse and immutabilitie then in the state of Subiection vnto Sinne and Miserie But admit it not Impietie as I thinke it is not It is flat and egregious foolerie at the best Peter might say to Paul at Antioch Vnlesse they could proue them acquainted with our affaires when they liued together and Vice versa Paul vnto Peter Pray for mee without scruple or doubt or question at all But what need for one to say so now to either when neither needeth Intercession of other I cannot say now to either one or other without incongruitie or touch of Foolerie Pray for me Were I with Them could I come at them or certainly enforme them of my estate without any question or more adoe I would readily and willingly say Holy Peter blessed Paul Pray for me Recommend my case vnto Christ Iesus our Lord. Were they with mee by mee in my kenning I would runne with open armes and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fall vpon my knees and with affection desire them to pray for me But seeing it is nor so nor so at least I cannot bee resolued so nor all Saint-inuocators in the World can prooue it so I would gladly see and know by what warrant I on Earth so vncouth and therefore vnkist so vnknowne vnto them altogether for ought can bee proued so farre remoued from all ordinarie meanes of intimation to make my case knowne can say vnto them Holy Peter blessed Paul pray for mee Let their great Grace and Fauour with God alone of which I make no question Their loue and entire affection vnto their Brethren alone of which I am as well perswaded as all the Romane Catholikes in the World are And in both these respects their more then probabilitie to preuaile in whatsoeuer they shall petitionate God for mee All this is nothing to no purpose if they cannot tell who nor what I am what I would haue or desire them to sollicite for or whether I speake vnto them implore their assistance or recommend my suite vnto them or not For I must needes in common reason make him acquainted with what I would haue whom I meane to employ in that I would haue Knowledge is the first moouer in all humane actions whatsoeuer Vltimus actus intellectus practici est primus voluntatis The Will willeth not but that which is suggested by Vnderstanding Knowledge is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all in all in this present question and dispute of Inuocation of Saints which ordinarily they seeme not to haue of themselues nor yet possibilitie to be informed thereof Or shew how they should be acquainted vvith them Prooue mee this that they haue or may haue notice thereof and proue all I will no more contend against their Intercession if any Papist liuing or all the Papists liuing can prooue that I may make my necessities knowne vnto them ordinarily but instantly subscribe without more adoe I grant they know much and that ordinarily of themselues their owne indowments or else by infused or reuealed knowledge Know all
Christ in glory by some specially inlarged dispensation then they the other holy Saints did as Saint Augustine teacheth in De cura pro mortius 18 Chapter Thirdly to come home to the point indeed If the place will not rather proue to be corrupted Bellarmine wilfully corrupteth or ignorantly citeth or negligently taketh vp this Text vpon credit by retaile For Eusebius hath no such thing as is pretended His words in his owne language are these 〈◊〉 8◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that Section parallelling the opinion and doctrine of the Pagans the Doctrine of the Church and reuealed knowledge of God from which at first they deriued whatsoeuer they opened in these points though with much deprauation euery way he relateth the heathenish opinion touching the soules of these men who had spent their liues for their countries cause and dyed manfully in defence thereof Their happy estate Their eternall felicity and from thence descendeth vnto Martyrs in the Church of God in these words Atque ista quident non incongruè vsurpari poterunt de morte vtrorum Deo imprimis dilectorum Quos si verae pietatis milites appellare volueris non aberrabis Vnde apud nos in more positum est illorum adire reconditoria ibidem Orationes fundere animas ipsorum foelices honorare quae a nobis fiunt summâ cum ratione Here is no mention of assistance from their intercession No word of intercession or mediation at all No praying vnto them to pray for vs but only praying vnto God Their God their God and ours at their Tombes and Monuments onely with deuotion an vsuall practice of those times The next allegation out of Athanasius The next is out of Athanasius may very well come vnder the censure of the Statute of Rogues if yet we would learne the place of Natiuity or could tell whether to returne it to be kept He Canteth indeed to purpose and speaketh home Inclina Maria aurem tuam ne obliuiscaris populitui In so much as that heare Bellarmine with much greater good reason might haue put to his quid clarius then to that testimony of Irenaeus But we know this language was not spoken in Irenaeus's time nor yet in Athanasius dayes The inuenter thereof and Pater fabulae was of much later date In plaine tearmes he is a counterfeit that saith it But so that it waâ— nâ—uer in him 〈…〉 not Athanasius whose name he beareth I doe not faine this answere of my selfe I doe not take it vp from the Centuries of Meydenburg I borrow it not at all from some forlorne Hereticks or mis-begotten Innouators it is the direct Censure of those two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Romane Catholique Religion Baronius and Bellarmine which you may maruell at but so it is Of Baronius as Bellarmine relateth and he saith true for so we find it Anno Christi 49. Sect. 19. Of Bellarmine when he was of better iudgement and not tyed to point of propugning Inuocation In his Catalogue of Ecclesiasticall Writers Let him therefore passe this Athanasius I meane as a branded rogue seeing he that produceth him and needeth his testimony hath discarded and discredited him sufficiently to be a counterfeit Saint Basil hath furnished them with a double testimony Saint Basil is the next in this Iury of twelue For so many are empanelled of the Greek Church who Orat. in 40 Martyres directeth vs to call vnto them in the time of trouble Qui aliqua premitur angustia ad hos confugiat Qui rursum laetatur hos oret Ille vt à malis liberetur Hic vt duret in rebus laetis This is the first testimony out of him In the former for there is another First I answere Basils words are depraued by the Cardinals Controuersie he is not 〈◊〉 as he speakes for he reciteth them as if Basil had giuen his counsell with approbation and exhorted men to haue recourse to them in time of need Ad hos confugiat So he citeth the place Let him flye vnto them Hos Oret Let him Pray vnto them But S. Basil in his owne language hath no such thing It is onely a narration of practice without counsell aduice or approbation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth flâ—e vnto them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath recourse vnto them There is a difference I ween betwixt these two passages howsoeuer altered let him see to that that did it Secondly he speaketh not dogmatically by way of any Positiue resolution but as Orators vse to cary themselues in Panegyricall discourses Basil was one of those He speakes like an Orator not dogmaticlly as they cite him wel-nigh the first of those that excelled in that popular kind of Homilizing wherein to moue affections and to stirre deuotions those Christian Orators tooke vp the course and the practice of great Masters in that Faculty not plainely to teach and positiuely to demonstrate but to improue their Doctrine and teaching by Art to settle the better what they would deliuer in points of Piety and for course of life It was è re Christianâ in those times much euery way that the holy and most blessed Martyres of Iesus should be had in great respect and awfull regard of men who if neede so required must tread after them the same steps must maintaine the same cause and howsoeuer stand continually in procinctu at all assayes That themselues might expect at Pagans hands the selfe-same measure meeted vnto those Heroes Now nothing could be more potent for perswasion in that point then to settle an assurance of their interest in GOD. There honour at his hands receiued To be not onely highly rewarded themselues but to haue that grace and fauour to recommend others As with men on Earth which is plaine in Cyprian so with God in Heauen to preuaile recommend to him and obtaine for others what they desire This point the Fathers presse much and often in their Anniuersary solemnities vpon Martyres memorials Now what is spoken Panegyrically raised vp to height with Hyperbolies and boâ—sterings of Arte is not to be pressed dogmatically For they vse to come downe to a lower straine when they speake to the point yea or no More reseruedly and suspensly in farre much streighter termes Againe S. Basil speaketh only of that time place the day of their festiuity in annuall obseruation And he speakes onely of the place and time of their annuall festiuity The place their sacred Oratory dedicated to Gods holy seruice in them At which time in which place more specially they might be present and were so imagined to be rather then at other times in another place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Church of these holy Martyres is a refuge ready fitted and prepared for Christians And yet then And then and there auerreth no inuocation of them but intercession by them and there not inuocation of them but intercession by them is auerred by S. Basil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
in Controuersie no not though hee addeth If then they haue this great power with God let vs by them endeauour to make God our friend to deriue downe Gods mercies vnto our selues by continuall attendance at their Memorials by our frequent repayring thither hauing made our selues in effect their meniall servants We cannot conclude hence that he beleeued As not concluding any faith or practice or perswasion of his or practised or perswaded Inuocation of Saints but onely pleaded it out of some opinion to helpe deuotion and stirre vp the multitude in his popular Sermons to a reuerend opinion an actiue imitation of holy Saints out of those worthy apprehensions of them And spoken rather out of his Rhetorick then out of his Diuinity Thus hee lauisheth often as a good Pleader when hee carryeth not himselfe in Cases of beliefe as a positiue Diuine So speaking of the holy Eucharist hee calleth it fire He saith the bloud runneth about our teeth and appealeth to the Auditory As his manner iâ— elsewhere if they haue not obserued it At the time of communicating hee saith wee are in Heauen conuersing there with Cherubins and with Serâ—phins And yet hee meant not these transcendant speeches literally I suppose no not in your opinions you Transubstantiators Nor are all passages in this very testimony so to be taken And as he cannot but be conceiued in this very testimony as at first sight they seeme to carry sence and emply For good Sirs what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 markes of Christ Iesus could those three soules in heauen and happinesse carry about with them How could they represent them vnto God or Christ before the resurrection of the body But if yet you dare auouch that this speech of his I hope yet you will not iustifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To the vtmost of our power let vs imitate her Hee meaneth Saint Pelagies who yet slew her selfe Consider in the Fathers and all Writers indeed How what wherefore and when is said and of whom by Panegyricks and popular Preachers in their Sermons Otherwise many Impertinencies Incongruities flat absurdities false impieties will ensue and be taught as positiue truths Secondly I answere it cannot be determined how Chrysostome could be of this opinion The rather because it is his opinion that the Saints doe yet expect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at least in ordinary course of Gods dispensation that holy Saints could helpe vs by recommending our cases vnto God or therefore were to be Inuocated because where hee speaketh Positiuely as vpon 1 Cor. 15. Hom. 39. and Hom. 28. vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes and in other places hee seemeth to be through for that opinion that the Saints departed not yet in Palatio behold not the face of God in glory but expect in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Porch as he phraseth it the accomplishment of the reward to the Righteous and finall Consummation of all in Christ Which opinion cannot stand with our Inuocation where of necessity they must haue accesse that are to be imployed as Mediators vnlesse Absalon could daily haue addresse vnto Dauid his Father and commend all Suitors vnto him then when for three yeare together he saw not his face But without all question whatsoeuer Chrysostome said And howsoeuer that 〈◊〉 doe not much need their mediation To. 5. pag 416. he would neuer had dyed in that defence of this opinion nor maintained the practice of it against opposers For hee telleth vs plainely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou hast no need of Mediators vnto God Almighty nor yet to runne vp and downe from one to another to speake for thee But be thou alone forsaken abandoned of all men no man taking care or tuition of thee yet come thy selfe vnto God intercede with him in thy owne person and without all question thou shalt haue thy desire He vseth not to grant our desires so soone nor so willingly our requests when others become Mediators for vs as when we speake for our selues although wee be otherwise laden with sinne And the same word almost in another place he hath To. 1. Ho. 4. â— in Genesin 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For as much as we haue a mercifull Lord and Master he doth not halfe so soone condescend to our Petition And that we are sooner heard at our owne suite then at theirs vpon mediation as he doth at our owne suite And farther affirmeth it an experimentalâ— truth thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which instantly he prooueth by examples And yet to purpose more inforcedly To. 5. pag. 546. When we haue cause to imply the helpe of man we are faine to be at cost and charges to sue pray intreat in most submisse and seruile sort Much adoe we neede great businesse we haue to effect it We cannot directly haue accesse to giue thancks or to petition in our owne persons But we must make friends by their Tutors and Stewards and seruants first by faire words by bribes all the meanes we can if yet by mediation we attaine our suits Now no such adoe when we deale with God himselfe He requireth no intercession for those that sue vnto him nor doth he so readily grant vs our suite by mediation of others as hee doth when we intreate him for our selues without any mediation or assistance at all And so in many other places beside the repeateth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We haue no need at all of Mediators Vnlesse they will haue Chrysostome various and contradictory to himselfe Shall wee thinke that Chrysostome forgat himselfe or spake as his present occasions led him without respect vnto the truth saying vnsaying the same thing Belieue it who list But Positiuely he addresseth Te vnto Me God vnto Man without any Mediator at all Ex abundanti peraduenture Who though he might perhaps take them in ex abundanti yet neither was that his ordinary course he thought Saints departed might sometimes in some place vpon some occasion giue good assistance vnto our Prayers Ordinarily the course is Call vpon me Extra ordinem it may be vse their assistance Generally they may pray in the consent of the Church particularly they doe or doe not as happeneth Happen it may occasionally as Martyes vpon their festiuals which some Antients thought Then especially but otherwhiles also A case not resolued on in those dayes And therefore as if it were no generall beliefe hee addeth that their Suffrages at other times may doe good but most probably in all likelihood vpon their Natiuities vnto such as make their prayers at their memorials not so much inuocating their speciall and priuate assistance as vpon this occasion that God will that day extraordinarily extend his louing kindnesse for his seruants sake That day and in that place alone For that day they did imagine them to be present and as present so spake vnto them But onely vpon dâ—yes of peculiar respect To. 5. pa 505. Thus Chrysostome else-where of
man of good account for his Experience confesseth that the vulgar the greater part of men who vnderstand no Greeke nor can tell what Latria or Dulia meaneth comprehend not any other Mediocritie then to Adore right downe or else not at all goe to it bonâ fide and with as much deuotion adore our blessed Ladie and other Saints now with God as they doe God Himselfe But be this as it is in their common Custome it is grand Impietie so confessed on both hands to inuocate any beside Me. For it is a part of that Diuine Honour whereof God hath said No man shall haue it because it is not Communicable to any Creature with or beside God It is as good Blasphemie as can bee committed in point of Practice to Call vpon still I say vpon not vnto any other at all beside Me. For to Call vpon any emplyeth them to be the Authours Originall and Donors Principall so much is intended by that Phrase of the good implored at their hands But to Call vnto that is to vse in their Suits vnto God in their Necessities and Exigences beside God Assistants Aduocates and Mediators Proctors vnto God Procurers from God of good things vnto themselues though it bee not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 flat impietie yet is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 plaine downe right Folly To beate the Bush while they may catch the Bird To goe about when they may walke the neere way home to vse much adoe when little helpe will serue to imply Mediators when they need none to pray and intreate the Porter for entrance when they may goe freely vnto the Closet of the great King to bribe a Seruant to deliuer a Petition when the Lord doth Call for it out of their owne hands A plaine Case he may well bee begged that will runne such an idle and wandring course They suggest to perswade it from vse and Congruitie thus In the Fashion and Practice of the World say they Poore men that are Petitioners to Prince or Potentate to Iudge or Iustice must be faine and are inforced that they may procure Fauour and haue good successe to make meanes and so commonly to make Friends and by their mediation come to speed that otherwise might long enough attend and it may be returned without effect They vrge that Kings haue their Masters of Requests their Cabinet Counsellors Minions and Fauourites in State who preferre at their pleasure whom they please and keepe backe whomsoeuer they doe not affect that they vse to bestow Graces and Offices by Recommendation Great men most commonly attend not Dispatches in Person themselues but turne Suiters ouer vnto others bid them come againe to morrow I haue no leisure to day goe to my Man giue him your Petition and at conuenient leisure I shall peruse it Answeres immediate are not ordinary with Persons that keepe state and stand vpon tearmes of Distance and Disproportion And what so great Distance or Disproportion say they any where as here in Case of intercourse betwixt God and Man where is no common medium to make a mutuall Commerce betwixt them Thus they doe plead plausibly and make simple people beleeue much As if it were and needes must bee so with God as Man And it seemes they are willing to be foole themselues iâ— vs they cannot But in this Faire shew and cariage of comparison our great Masters aut fallunt aut falluntur wittingly and willingly they would deceiue or ignorantly they erre not remembring the Nature and Practice of God not considering his intimations of his will and good pleasure to vs reuealed First the Practice they produce vpon which they insist to perswade is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so generally true For how weak is that which they falsly vrge as a perpetual practise with earthly Princes such a receiued ruled Case as hath not suffered at all contradiction There are and haue beene alway such as vse it not And no maruell it is no Naturall course of kind that so it should passe for an vniuersall Practice It came in by abuse from the State and Pride of the Persian Monarchs from the loose licentiousnesse and Socordia of those Easterne Nations very Imperious in their Grandees and men of authoritie most seruile and abiect in their Peasants With the Romans an ingenious and Free People with the Grecians a ciuill and well disposed Nation it was long ere this Seruile Course came into pactice Augustus Caesar vpon occasion was requested of an old Souldier of his to affoord him his Presence at hearing of a Cause he had the Prince replyed he would depute one for him which the Souldier not vsed to such tearmes of putting off or if you will of Distance answered him stoutly But I sent no Substitute O Emperour to fight in thy quarrell at Philippi I went my Selfe and aduentured my life in Person and am I put ouer to a Proxie which Augustus acknowledging with some bloud in his face went himselfe as he requested and did not assigne a Substitute to doe it In the Graecian Storie it was as stoutly replyed by one to Philip of Macedon if I remember aright who making this answere to a Petition I haue no leisure receiued as free a returne from the Petitioner Noli ergo regnare What dost thou with the Kingdome or with a Crowne if thou haue no leisure to dispatch and heare suites And not to goe beyond the surroundry of foure Seas wee haue a Precedent amongst our owne Kings that Princes giue not all nor yet dispatch euery thing by mediation He amongst our Kings Qui coniunxit Rosas that both knew and practised rights and points of State as well as euer did any since his time gaue his Offices of Church and Common-wealth so freely and absolutely of himselfe that Hee only tooke and deserued thankes if hee gaue them Himselfe had the Benefit and Profit if hee sold them Mediators were not much in request in his time not much employed nor many things done by them as it seemeth So this practice is not so certaine But to admit it an Eternall truth and vniuersall Rule Which if it were granted perpetuall with them would be no Argument to proue it so with God That intercession must bee made by Abettors vnto great men and Mediators that Princes neuer giue dispatch but by deputation as is pretended in the Persuasion yet might they not hereupon inferre by any good sequell or consequence that thereupon it hath beene and must bee so with God For what are we vnto Him to inuert the Argument What is our Modell vnto his Making Theâ—e is and hath beene euer as Himselfe hath auowed it a mayne disproportion and dissimilitude betwixt vias meas and vias vestras the wayes of God and the by-walkes of man My wayes saith the Prophet are of an other fashion If then by so good warrant there bee auouched such dissimilitude There being so great disproportion betwixt them and disproportion betwixt God