will a little trie because ye bragge so stoutly howe well yee beleeue Ye beleeue Christ was crucified and suffred vpon the Crosse but are yee able for to prooue that yee beleeue in Christ crucified Ath. I say I doe are you able for to disprooue me Zelot Sinne is not slaine in ye therfore ye do not Ath. Howe prooue yée that sinne is not slaine in mee Zelot Because it doth raigne in ye therfore it is aliue Ath. I knowe not what yee meane by that Zelot Yee are ledde by sinne ye delight in it ye haue not mortified the lusts and concupiscences of the same And therefore yee haue not learned Christ as S. Paule speaketh Ephesians 4. Ye haue not put of the old man and put on the new man The death and passion of Christ hath not slaine sinne in yee for to beleeue in Christ crucified is for to be crucified with him as the Apostles doe teach in sundry places The reason is this Christe was not crucified for to slay sinne in him self for he had none but in his members which are ioyned and knit vnto him by faith in them the force power of his death doth shew it selfe nowe he which hath not this worke of the death of Christ in him that hee feeleth himselfe crucified concerning the body of sinne his faith in the passion of Christ is but a dead faith and cannot saue him This is the cause why S. Paule faith Rom. 8. That those which are in Christ walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite S. Iohn saith 1. Epistle cha 3. Ye know that he was made manifest to take away our sinnes in him was no sinne Whosoeuer abideth in him sinneth not he that sinneth hath not seene him nor knowne him Ath. Then by that reason yee woulde prooue that all that beleeue in Christ are perfect without sinne I thinke all are sinners Zelot Whosoeuer is borne of God sinneth not 1. Iohn 3. 9. Ath. Is there any man which can saye that hee is without sinne Zelot Not one which liueth in this flesh Ath. Then yee are contrarie vnto your selfe for euen nowe yee sayde That whosoeuer abideth in Christ sinneth not and hée which is borne of God sinneth not and now ye confesse that all are sinners so long as they liue Zelot I am not contrarie vnto my selfe but your blindnesse causeth ye for to thinke so Looke in the Epistle to the Romaines Chapter 7. and there ye shall find how S. Paule coupleth both these things together in himselfe which you iudge to bee so coutrary that by no meanes they may be founde in one man together at one time He confesseth that there was a lawe in his members rebelling against the law of his mind and leading him captiue to the law of sinne And yet a litle before in the same Chapter hee saieth That he did not commit the euill but sinne which dwelt in him The reason which he maketh is that hee did consent vnto the law and would haue doone the good but he did the euill which he hated To make the matter plaine thus it is Saint Paule was regenerate but yet not in full perfection for the remnaunt of sinne did abide in him that which the part regenerate did or coueted to doe or consented vnto that he saith he did and that which the corruption which did still remaine in him forced him for to doe that he saith he did not but sinne which dwelled in him Hee doth esteeme himselfe in the part regenerate he counteth the remnaunts of the old man to be but as excrements or as a dead carion which did abide in him and anoy him His delight and desire was vppon the good he hated the euill and therefore when he did sinne because it was against his consent and against his will it was no obedience which hee gaue vnto it he did not therefore serue sinne neyther did sin raygne ouer him but exercise a certayne â—iranny ouer him which he coulde not speake of Ath. I know not what yée meane when yée haue saide what yée can all must bee sinners Zelot Yee may very easily perswade me to beleeue that ye know not what I meane If your fiue wits were fifteene they woulde helpe nothing in this case Because ye know not what this meaneth yee know not what faith in Christ crucifyed meaneth ye know not what repentaunce meaneth yee can see no difference of sinners all are sinners say you and the death of Christ is that whiche saueth not considering that the death of Christ first killeth those whom it maketh aliue For this cause men are greatlye ouershot oftentimes when they come vnto a sicke man they thinke if he say I beleeue Christe died for my sinnes and shed his blood for me that then all is aswell as may be If it were faith in deed in the blood of Christ they must needes be in good case for al that beleeue in him shalbe saued But they stay vpon a bare fantasie which is a dead weak faith not making them to feele the power of the death of Christe Ignoraunce is so deepely setled in mens mindes that let a man be neuer so wicked neuer so far from true knowledge of God if he can make but some general coÌ„fession they neuer looke further And because they see almost all howesoeuer they liue find this it maketh them also to be carelesse and neuer for to thinke of the newe birth of which Christe speaketh when he sayeth vnto Nicodemus except a man be borne againe he cannot see the kingdome of God This newe byrth is shut out at the doores therefore no doubt God doth shutte them out of his kingdome which make no account of it Ath. Make your selfe neuer so skilfull yet yée cannot tell which man God saueth and which he condemneth Zelot It is not the will of God that wee should take vpon vs for to pronounce vppon any man and to say he is damned because we must leaue the secrete counsell of God vnto himselfe who is not bounde vnto vs to giue any account of his doings But I pray yee let vs a litle consider howe this headlesse bolte of yours is shotte foorth against true godlynesse Thus you reason no man can tell who are saued and who are damned therefore we are not for to care for tryall of our faith and repentance and that therfore the rules which are giuen in the word of God in these points are nothing worth Euery man may searche and know in him selfe whether he be in good case or not and we ought euery one for to trie our selues by that whiche the woord teacheth so plentifully I woulde wishe yee to consider what the cause is why the greatest multitude goe to destruction euen because they knowe not these thinges therefore see not the great danger which they be in but can boldly beare themselues in haÌ„d that they shall doe well enough Manye doe laugh euen in the middest of destruction I meane
it serue Zelot Howe proude and presumptuously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man which is but claye and dust yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe against God euen the Lorde of infinite wisedome and glorie but that wee see it dayly for to be common Ath. Doe not accuse me for to be proud I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God Zelot If ye were as sicke as ye be proude a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your supper But I knowe you doe not see your pride Ath. I maruell why ye shoulde counte â—â— proude ye see how plaine I goe Zelot You thinke that pride is in the coate when it is in the heart a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe There is cause why yee doe not goe gay yee are not able for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue and yee shall see her flie the same flight There is pride against GOD and against men and you are in the deepest of them euen agaynste God Ath. Prooue that because yée condemne me so sore Zelot Yee take your selfe for to bee wise and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde If it bee so exceeding hurtfull then surely Christ was to be blamed Saint Paule and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete because they haue sette it foorth It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken aduise of the deepe heades of the worlde whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe and haue saide Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine it will turne yee vnto discretite O foolishe wise fleshe this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache thou canst neuer come within the smell of it Ath. Smell or smel not let me heare yée aunsweare the matter Zelot You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie but alas man your halfepenie is no good siluer yee are in a wrong boxe I will shewe you howe childishly ye erre Forsooth say you if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne then let him doe as euill as he can hee shall not bee damned and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe this doth open a doore vnto him and a wide passage vnto all euill because he needeth not to care what he doth it is appointed before hande what shall become of him This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all and although it seeme for to haue good legges yet is it but an olde Criple be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth Ephesians Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundations of the worlde were layde that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame before him through loue Howe stand these two thinges together when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust and God sayth by his Apostle that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blamelesse in their conuersation And this is vndoubtedly true that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite as yee maye reade in the same Chapter They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite they walke in the spirite they are led by the spirite they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them and that they are regenerate and 〈…〉 againe of the spirite and so become newe creatures in Christ sinne is abhominable vnto them they hate loth it no lesse then deadlie poison they pant and breath to be wholy set free from the remnantes of it Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them their ioye and heartes delight is in it They sigh and grone because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it The word of God doth plainely teach that the electe are thus as I haue shewed and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life Ath. I like not this that men will saye they know God hath chosen them howe can they tell Can any man tell what God will doe with him Did God euer tell them that they are elected Zelot Howe shoulde you like of this when as yee like of no goodnesse Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man iudge of thinges spirituall You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him because you are blinde and see not the way ye suppose all other are so you are an Infidell or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord and tell which shall be saued and which are in the way to damnation Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen if the woorde of God tell him he is chosen hath not God himselfe then tolde him Read the first Chapter of the seconde Epistle of Peter and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected and that hee shall neuer fall For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite and reneweth him by repentaunce he is sure because God sayth so that he is chosen to eternall life if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him then doeth hee doubt and stagger but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande On the other side when a man liueth in sinne and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen May certainly say that as yet their state is damnable Ath. Howe can yee saye their state is damnable so long as they beléeue Can men do more then beléeue Zelot They doe not beleeue for if they beleeue then are they sure that GOD loueth them what is it else which they beleeue if they knowe they bee in fauour with God it is because he chose them in Christ If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt stagger oftentimes yet they are not like the vnfaithful which coÌ„tinue in the same but they get the vpper hande they striue by prayer by
al other meanes which god hath appointed to strengthen and increase their faith their knowledge their repentance and so farre to growe in grace vntill they come to assurance that God hath chosen them As for the wicked they know of no such faith that a man may atraine to assurance of his election they labour not about anie such matter but continue still in their blinde doubtes setting all vpon hazzard and as for their doing what they can it is nothing they cannot but sinne and therefore be damned howesoeuer they seeme for to do good workes yet before God they are no good workes because they proceede not of faith but from the flesh they are not grafted into the true vine Christ and for that cause can bring forth no fruite Ioh. 15. Ath. If GOD had chosen men before â—â—â— worlde â—o bee saued Wherefore did Christ dye for to saue them If they shoulde bee saued before his death was more then needed Wherefore should men bee taught wherefore should they prayâ— all these are in vaine Zelot You are like vnto a man whiche doeth make strife and debate betweene brethren and friendes you woulde set prayer and teaching and the death of Christ together by the eares with Gods election but doe what yee can all these will agree well together they bee so vnseparably knit in friendship God hath chosen men for to be redeemed in his sonne For the scripture sheweth that we are chosen in Christ He hath chosen men to bee instructed and called by preaching the woord he hath chosen men for to call vpon him and to worship him in holynes and righteousnes all the dayes of their life Ath. Ye speake much of preaching preaching as though it were so needful Can they make the worde of God better then it is Is there not enough set downe in the Bible for men to reade wherefore shoulde they adde more Can not men reade that Is not reading preaching Zelot Now ye seeke new starting holes There is some Colt so wilde that he will trouble halfe a dosen light men of foote for to driue him hee will in at euery gappe turne at euery lane and out at euery gate Euen so I can liken the reasoning with such as you are yee haue so many by shiftes so many cauils so many turninges that ten of the best learned in this lande shall hardly bee able to keepe ye in the way But wee must not leaue yee thus but bring yee into the way againe Preaching is not so needefull they can make the worde of God no better then it is why man they doe not preache for to make the worde better but for to make you better There is enough set downe in the Bible but you vnderstand little enough of it Men may reade it as a great number doe which peruert it and are nothing bettered by it because they seeke not helpe for to vnderstande it Reading say you is preaching Truly then I knowe a man which hath a little daughter that is a trimme Preacher I perceiue our lande is full of Preachers but yet in deede not such as Saint Paule describeth For the little girle is not apt to teach able to instruct to exhort to conuince not to deuide or cut the worde of God aright nor to open the Mysteries of it If yee leape ouer many of these ditches yee will breake your necke in the ende ye are a very skilfull man when yee take expounding and applying the worde of God for to be adding for ye aske why they should adde Ath Are not men allowed which are but readers euen by the learnedst in the lande Doe yée finde faulte with the Bishoppes or are yee one of those whiche doe not allowe of Bishops for such fellowes there be nowe a dayes Zelot I would ye should know that I am none of those which disalow Bishops when as the worde of God doth set it downe to be a worthie worke it is a very reuerende office exceedingly they are to be blamed which doe contemne it or deface it God hath ordeined the office of Bishops in his Church for to gouerne and feede his people such as would abolish this ordinance of God doe resist God and are enemies vnto the Church of Christ Ath. By my faith I like yée the better for that Zelot I like you neuer the better for your swearing Ath. I am not so precise as too make any account of swearing by my faith Zelot I thinke so for faith is no more account made of then as a packehorse all is laide on his backe Ath. I pray God we may doe no worse and then I hope wee shall doe well enough are you without sinne I doubt not but yee will commit as great offence to GOD as this or euer the weeke bee ended Pull the beame out of your owne eye If euery man woulde looke to himselfe there shoulde not bee so much finding faulte one with an other Zelot Where learne ye that prayer in the scripture The Prophet Dauid Psalme 19. Prayeth to be cleansed from his secrete sinnes although they bee neuer so small Where learned ye to speake after this sorte no woorse and that yee hope then to doe well enough Is it nothing to breake so straight a rule of Christ Doe yee not thinke that children dying in their infancie before they can speake or woorke are damned for lesse sins I speake of such as are not of Gods Church When as they haue onely originall sin You know not from how euil a roote this â—inne doth spring neither doee ye know the foulenesse of sinne and therefore ye cannot tell how much God doth abhorre it condemne it For this cause being as full of filthy vices and prophane sinnes as ye caÌ„ be thrust and of such in deede as God doth curse and hate because they seeme small vnto you ye suppose ye shal do wel ynough What if I haue greater in me or that I shall coÌ„mit greater as you say before the weeke be ended doth that excuse you I haue many secret sinnes in me which I do not see because I do not perfectly vnderstaÌ„d the law of God for these I doe earnestly intreat the Lord to make them knowne vnto me by giuing me more perfect vnderstanding of his will and also to giue me power for to cast them out I haue also many sinnes in mee which I see and knowe that cleane so fast that I cannot vtterly cast them foorth notwithstanding I hate and abhorre them I am wearie of them I fight against them I grone and sigh in my heart with sorowe for them I feele no sweetnesse in them for they are more bitter then Gall vnto my soule I am exceeding glad when I can suppresse them I haue professed and vowed a continuall warre against them and although I preuaile not so farre as to bee vtterly ridde of them yet I labour by meditation in gods worde and by heartie prayer to bring them vnder that they raigne not ouer