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A04491 A dialoge describing the originall ground of these Lutheran faccions, and many of their abuses, compyled by syr William Barlow chanon, late byshop of Bathe; Dyaloge descrybyng the orygynall ground of these Lutheran faccyons, and many of theyr abusys Barlow, William, d. 1568. 1553 (1553) STC 1462; ESTC S101046 40,661 178

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vnto them whych is apartely proued by the oracyō of king Abya Roboams sone laynge to the people charge that they forsoke god made them goldē calues expu●syng the prestes deakons of goddes ordynaunce and instytutynge other after the order of hethē ydolaters Wherto agreeth in defence of mine opinion the generall confessyon of the people with theyr vnyuersall submissiō in knowlege of theyr trespaces recited in sondry places of scripture after thys forme we haue synned with our forefathers we haue done wickedly haue cōmitted iniquite all we haue transgressed thy commaundementes And surelye as the worlde is nowe crokedlye enclyned to malyce yf God sent heades and Prynces accordyng to thedeuelyshe appetites of much people the welth of this region wold be sone subuerted euery state brought to confusion albeit they other wyse coloure it and make as though they ment none harme but rather much deuotion that the vnlearned would haue the Scripture in theyr handes for none other cause but onely to preache secretly to them self for lacke of good preachers abroade But then in dede it appereth that they preach to thē selfe and theyr neyghbours to many an horryble heresye and abuse the scripture to the colorable defence of the same And then are they also to all Tyndals bokes whiche for the manyfolde mortall heresyes conteyned within the same openlye condempned and forbyddē they are I saye yet vnto those bokes so sore affectionate that neyther the condempnation of them by the clergy nor the forbydding of them by the kinges hyghnes with his open proclamations vpon greate paynes nor the daūger of open shame nor parell of paynfull deth can cast thē out of some fond folkes handes and that folke of euery sorte Howe thynke ye then these folke wold haue bene stomaked how many mo wold haue blustred out with them yf the mayntenaūce of the prynces and the states of the realme whych our lorde defende had bene vppon they re syde And where about wolde they then haue gone aboute no great good ye maye be sure Se ye not the vyllayne beggers and valyaūt vagaboundes whom god plageth with pouer te and myserye for theyr abom ynable lyuyng dysposed to no goodnes howe hartely they wysshe for a ruffelynge daye Beholde euery state all moste in euery chrystē realme as husband mē artyfycers marchaunts courtyers with all other degrees as well spyrituall as temporal I fere me that ye shall saye but if god of his goodnes amēde vs the soner there shall come to passe amonge vs the ferefull iugemēt of god spoken by the prophete Osee to the people of Israhell and inhabyters of the lande There is no truthe no mercye nor scyence of god in the yerth Cursynge lyenge manslaughter theft and aduowtrye hathe ouer flowen bloode hathe towched bloode for the which the yerth shall wayle and euery inhabyter in it shall be feebled And this as I haue sayde not one contrey fawty another fawtles one estate fowle and deformed and another pure clene the spyrytualtie synful and the temporaltie set all on vertue the heades rulers culpable the people oute of blame nor that any estate maye laye the hole weight of Goddes wrath vnto the other and therof discharge them selfe but eche of theym is cause both of theyr own harme and other folkes to And the people are nothynge lesse fawtye prouokynge the wrathe of God than theyr heades or gouernours nor one state partyculerlye cause of anothers calamytie But all we together haue synned haue deserued the vengeaūce of God whiche hangeth before our eyes redy to fall ere we be aware N. In this poynt ye haue ryghte well satisfyed my mynde but what remedye now of reconciliacion agayne to God W. Forsoothe I knowe none but onely penaunce I saye not repentyng onely as Luther and Tyndall and these new folkes call it whiche wolde begyle vs make vs wene that we nede no more but onely repente and do no penaunce at all tellynge vs that Christes passion shall stand in stede of al our penaunce though we do neuer so euyl and lyue neuer so longe With this false doctryne they dryue many a soule to the deuyll makynge theym neglygente and take lyttell care or sorowe for theyr synne and so muche the more rechelesse in fallynge to synne agayne But I speake of pennaunce as it implieth both repētaūce of our synnes past the y● sacrament of penaunce wyth ●are sorow and bodely payn afflyccy on taken for our syn wyth prayer almouse other good workes to purchase the more grace that we shuld with recourse to confessyon the sacrament of penaūce dylgently prepare our selues in folowing the exāple ▪ of the Nyniuytes whyche at the preachynge of the prophete Jonas repented wyth ernest purpose of amendynge theyr lyues and dyd penaunce in deede in fastynge and prayer humblynge they re ●owles frome the moste to the least vnto the mercy of god N. wolde our lorde that we had such a prophete sent amōg vs to exhorte vs vnto penaūce as the prophete Jonas was to theym W. That were lyke to the request of the ryche glut tone in hell of whom the gospel telleth which desyred that Lazare myghte be sente to warne hys brethern to whom it was answered that hauynge Moyses the prophetes they shuld gyue credence to theym wher fore seynge that we haue holy scrypture which expresseth the rightwysn̄es of god declaring howe our forefathers were punysshed for theyr synnes yf we refuse to be warned by they re admonycyon truely we wolde be as neglygent to amende yf Jonas raysed frō death to lyfe shulde preache vnto vs. For we haue saynt John baptist a greater prohete than Jonas was cryēg to al sinners Do ye worthy frutes of penaunce of whom Christ wytnesseth that there is none greater than he amonge the chyldrē of womē Also oure saueour Christ hym self of whom saynt John̄ testyfyed that he was vnworthy to lose his shoe latchet preached penaunce sayinge Do ye pennaunce the kyngedome of heauen is at hande And in another place of the Gospell he sayth yf ye do not penaunce ye shall all peryshe And Saynte Peter his vy●ar here in earth vpon whom and whose faythfull confession he promysed to bylde his churche preached likewyse in his fyrste Sermone sayinge Do ye penaūce and be conuerted to God that youre synnes maye be done awaye Also saynt Paule the chosē vessell of God preached fyrste of al to them of Damasco that they shuld be penitent and turne to god perfourming the due workes of penaunce Cōfyrmynge the same when Christ appered vnto the .ii. disciples iorneinge to Emaus he sayd y● after his death and resurrection it behoued penaunce to be preached in his name and remission of sinnes for why the cause of his comynge was not to call ryghteous folk but sinners vnto penaunce And the aungelles of heauen reioyced not so greatly in nynty nyne iuste persons as vpon one synner doyng penaūce
Israhelytes lybertie and sone delyueraunce of theyr bondage causynge them to truste in his leasynge whiche he sayde was the worde of God And generallye all other false Prophetes bosted them selues to be sente of God came to prech his truth whome he neuer dyd sende as he wytnessethe with his owne mouthe in diuers places of the byble Furthermore all suche as occupye inchauntmentes cōiurers wytches in theyr busynes wyth manye ceremonies rehearse the word of God Also our sauyour Christe sayth that manye shall come in his name saying I am Chryste and they shall desceaue many but howe surely in perswading that their doctryne is Goddes word and that they be hys messengers hys annoynted sonnes and specyall prophetes So dyd Symon Magus delude the people of Samary affermyng that he was Christe Lykewyse Machomette named hym selfe the great prophete of God And all other heretykes commenlye in fortefyenge theyr abhomynable heresyes alledge the worde of God and euangelike veryte accordyng as Martyn Luther with the whole rable of hys adherents do dayly practyse But what auayleth it to resyte the worde of God yf we interprete it by a false peruerted sence What auauntage is it to saye Lord Lorde and do not as he cōmaūdeth vs He that saith I know God and obseruethe not hys commaundementes is a lyer and there is no truthe in hym The Pharyseys Dyscyples sayd to Christe Mayster we knowe that thou art a true speaker thou teachest y● waye of God in truthe yet thoughte they nothynge so in theyr hartes What thynge is more easy for these new teachers than in blasynge theyr auctorytye to saye that theyr doctryne is the trewe worde of God and that they haue hys spyryte where as they admyt no interpretacion of scripture but theyr owne in so muche that they reiecte parte of the bible because it serueth not to theyr purpose Concerninge the determinatiō of generall councelles and auctorytye of auncyent doctours of the churche they vtterly contemne excepte in fewe thynges whereoute they gather sentences whyche falselye depraued and otherwhile chaunged clene contrarye to the auctoures intent they make to serue in coulourynge theyr heresye Howe shall wee then knowe whether they be the ryghte preachers theyr doctryn the word of god or noo Trewlye Chryste geueth vs a rule infallyble sayenge By theyr fruytes ye shall knowe theym A good tree can brynge forthe no euyll fruyte nor a badde tree canne brynge forthe no good frute And they whiche here the worde of God with an earnest and good hart they holde it faste bryngynge forth fruyte in patience Also Saint James descrybyng the expedient condition of christen prechers and heuenly learning sayth who that among you is wyse endued with connynge lette hym shewe hys good workes out of a good conuersation wyth softenes of wysedome If ye haue sower hatred and varyaunce amonge you in youre harte wyll not ye reioyce and be lyars agaynst the truth for thys is not the wysdome comminge from aboue but earthly bestial and deuelysh Where as is enmyte contention there is inconstancy and all noughty doyng The wisdom that descēdeth from God is fyrste chaste and so peaseable mylde treatable full of mercy and good frutes wythout any mysdemynge or dyssymulatyon Nowe to compare these fruites vnto the actes of these Lutheran factyons ye shall fynde a farre difference Wherefore seyng that by longe experyence I haue perceaued the fashion manner and order of all states among them and was no small whyle conuersaunt wyth those whiche are of hyest reputation both for theyr sobernes of lyfe and fame of lyterature I haue thought it necessary for the dyscharge of my conscience and information of other playnlye to shewe the verytie as I haue knowen wyth out hatred of them or fauoure of any other persons which to performe I haue here compiled thys lytle processe folowynge vnder the forme of a breife dyaloge Wherein though ye shall rede some thynges so straunge for the enormities of them that diuers men namelye the fauourers of these sectes wyll iudge them vnlykelye of trueth and halfe impossyble to be vsed among resonable people endued wyth any wysdom or learning yet are they matter in dede accordynge as ye shall see vnfaynedlye declared And be ye full assured that I reherse not by a greate parte all the abuses manyfestlye knowen by thē nor so many as I could shew whiche god wyllyng hereafter in proces of tyme maye be dysclosed more largelye A greate occasion why that many be so feruēt in fauorynge this Lutherane doctryne is the vayne prayses of much people commyng from thence reportyng that there is so good order suche charitable liberalitie and euangelyke conuersation whiche is all to gether false And dyuers of suche tydyng cariers lest they might seme ignoraunte in a fewe thinges they frame theym selues wythoute shame to lye in manye It is harde for a renagate frere a faythelesse apostata a forlorne coopeman a marchaun tes prētyce or an embassatours hostler hauynge lytle learning lesse dyscresyon small deuocyon and scant a curtesy of wysedome to make true reporte in such matters And yet are ther of them which make thē selues full busy and are as redy to tell that they knowe not as that that they know accordynge as they feale theyr affeccions desposed whome they couet to please by whiche meanes they attayne hye cōmendations made much of ar called prety wyse men proper persōs with many goodes blessynges vpon theyr hartes Suche is the maddenes of the worlde and folysh appetytes of people preferring their corrupt affections before ryghte iudgement and testymonye of theyr conscyence Truthe it is that the Germayns of old antiquite haue deserued specyall lawde for theyr playnes in worde and dede voyd of dissimulation and for theyr homelye famylyaryte wythout acception of p●rsons in whiche vnto this daye they excel other nacions wherof the originall cause manye falslye do ascrybe to thys Lutheran doctryne beynge doubtlesse meru● lousely decayd throughe it so that true playnesse was not wonte to be so scace there among scant good liuers as fraudes begyn now to be plenty among theyr newe Gospellers Wherefore Christen reders I exhort you all percialite set a parte to fyxe youre selfe vppon the lyuynge worde of God whiche may saue your soules and walke dyrectlye after it bowynge nether on the one syde nor on the other I meane not that fleshly worde nor theyr Gospell whiche saye ye haue no fre wyll youre good deedes shall not saue you nor your yldedes shall not dampne you the sacramētes of the church be nothing of necessite ye nede not to be confessed to a preeste ye are not bownde to obey the lawes of the church c. but that true worde of god verye gospell of our Sauyour Christe of whose fyrste sermon the antetheme was thys Doo ye pennaunce for the kyngdome of God is at hande And at hys laste farewell from his Disciples he affyrmed the same saying that in his name it behoued
lustes makynge y● whiche is vnlawefull lawfull which say that good is euell euell is good callynge lyghte darcknes and darknes lyght N. We shal finde thē among whiche prech suche thinges as ye cal heresye for no such cause but preache it bold elye before great audience where they for theyr preachyng be brought in great daūger W. Thoughe they do fall in harme yet haue they hope to wynne theyr fauour or els why are they so desyrous to haue so many ley mē present at their examinatiōs N. They make of it a reasonable cause for .ii. cōsideratiōs One is to thintent they might not be wrongefullye oppressed in corners another is because they would that people shulde bear witnes of their constancy in confessynge the trouthe for Christes sake W. These cōsyderations in theym yf they were true as thei be false were yet of small efficacite against the euangelike perfection As touchynge the fyrste God promyseth yf hys seruauntes be wronged pryuelye he wyll reuenge them opēly And Christ in the gospell exhortynge vs to suffraunce byddeth his discyples to be ioyful in persecution saying y● happy are ye when ye are belyed euyll spoken vpon and extremelye dealte withall for my names sake The other appearethe to be an excuse of vaynglory couetynge wordly prayse where as they perceiue that people fauourynge theyr parte wyll interprete to theyr commendation what so euer they say though it be agaynste scripture cōtrary to all verite Saynte Peter wylleth vs to geue accounte of oure fayth to euery bodye and that myldely with allowlynes We haue no president of the appostles that euer they disdained to answer before the infidele iudges tyll the vulgar multitude were by them or that they requyred assystence of greate men to be recordes of theyr wordes Wher fore I meruel what conscience these persons haue whiche are so importune to be examined in presence of rude seculers ignoraunt people when they answer so doubtfully that the beste learned can not well construe theyr me anynge And in Pryncypall articles wherevpon dependeth our saluacion or dampnation some answere so nakedly with blynd shyftes that they be able to brynge vnlearned people into erroure of things wherof they neuer douted before vsynge euer ouerthwart speche and quaylynge sentences of double vnderstandynge wyth protestations of hypocrysye after thys fashion In good fayth I thynke there is a purgatorye albeit I can not tell whether I may beleue it or no. I suppose that confessyon made to a preiste and pylgrymages maye be well done but I fynde them not in Scripture I beleue in these words of christ this is my bodye but as concernyng his bodely presence in forme of breade to saye any thinge it is aboue my capacitie and I dare not meddle with so dyffuse maters I rekē that I may beleue y● doctours of the church yf they speak not agaynste the worde of god c. To vse such āvages in weyghtye causes to put in question a fresshe the cases defyned by generall counsels as thoughe we were vncertayne of our beleif new to begyn agayne I repute it no spyryte of truthe sekynge goddes honoure and edification of theyr neighbour Nor I dout not but at the day of iudgement they shal make a more seryous aunswere This consideraciō is also as I haue sayde very playnlye false For whē these sly shyftes fayle thē they shew no constancy of their vnfaythfull doctryne but falsely forswere them self and saye they neuer sayde so the hole audience detesting theyr periury all saue onely theyr owne sect whiche as for periury pardon eche other To speke of manyfest mysliuers and open transgressours whom may we well exempte consyderynge howe prone and redy the hole world is from the moste to the leaste to declyne and fall vnto euyll Our faythe whiche God hath geuen vs to buylde good workes vppon is waxen barrayne and fruteles Charite likewise wherin we shuld be tryed to be the very disciples of Christe is waxed cold through the excesse of iniquite Amiable con●oro● with christen vnite whervpon all vertue fasteneth her fundation is fallen in ruyne to the fre entresse of hatefull discenc●ō lyberte of alvyces In euery state and degre y● one barketh at the other one obiecteth agaynste another his saultes ▪ eche of them farynge other to be causes of theyr myseries yet neuer a one fashioneth him selfe towarde any amendment for hys owne parte N. By my trouthe I deme the people would be good ynough if they had good heades W. I deny not that verely but the better that the heades be the better were the body lyke to be and y● euyll y● is in euyll heades descendeth down into euery part and maketh all the bodye the worse And yet surely if the people be euyll the synne of them causeth God sometyme to send them heades of the same sute both popes emperoures kynges cardynalles bysshoppes preistes and curates For it is the synne of the people as Job testifieth that causeth God to suffer hypocrytes sometyme to raygne ouer them Hypocrites he calleth them that represente the personages of these estates whose partes they do playe for a countrnaunce and do the contrarye in dede And as far as I haue redde in the byble all the while the people of Israell were good obeying goddes lawes and sought his honour God gaue them gracious gouernoures vertuous priestes and trewe Prophets But as sone as they swarued fel vnto ydolatry he sent thē for theyr punyshmente vngracious princes vycyous prelates and false prophetes so that no difference was betwene the people the prestes nor y● people could not ymagyn so outragious abominations but princes and prestes bothe were redy to fortefye them in theyr vnhappynes N. yet yf ye remember well the storyes of the byble ye shall fynde y● the trāsgressiō of goddes lawes amōge the people redounded fyrst frō y● heades by theyr pernicious occasion And as towchynge false prophetes and yll prestes God him selfe greuously complayneth vpon them shewing how the people are seduced by them to the pollutynge of hys name and violation of his lawes Whose enmious wickednes Ezechiell Hieremye with diuers other prophets declare at length Dyd not the Belial preistes Ophni Phines by theyr pestylent example and le cherours lyuynge corrupt manye one vpon whome God takynge vengeaunce they loste theyr lyues in battayl and the arke of God wherof they had the cure takē by the Philisteis xxx thousande fyghtyng men of the Israhelyte people were slayne in one daye Likewise y● chyldren of Samuell whiche were iudges of y● people not en suynge theyr fathers steppes but set vpon couetousnes toke rewardes and peruerted iugemente by whose occasyon the people were moued to aske a kynge vnto theyr desolation Moreouer the storye of kynge Saule is playn for whose pryuate disobedience the hole lande of Israell smarted full ●ore Kyng Dauid thoughe he was a blessed mā yet brought vnto folye for to nomber his people they were fayne to
As concernyng the olde testamente God him selfe promyseth in dyuers places that asynner shall be forgyuen hys synnes whensoeuer he wyl do penāce wherfore seig we haue so euident exhortatiōs of scripture mouynge vs to penaunce ▪ and manyfolde warnynges to correct our lyues through the the pacyent suffraunce of god happy are we yet if now atlast ere that it be to late we coulde faythfully saye wyth Job perfourming y● dede lord we haue hard y● wyth our eares therfore we reprehēd our selfs do penaūce N. yet wote I not well what ye call penaunce W. I haue ones told you yet I tell you agayn I call penaūce a chaūge of our lyfe in castyng of y● synfull old man with his dedes and doynge on anew man of vertuous conuersacyon whiche by fayth hope and charyte and the good workes y● come of them as prayer almouse sorow for his synne and payne gladly taken and susteyned for the same is renewed in to the knowledge fauoure of god accordynge to his ymage that made him N. how shuld laye mē come to this knowlege when y● gospell is lockyd fro them W. The gospell of Christe whiche is goddes worde is free and can not be boūde nor kepte frō any Christen man N. By saynt Marye for all that laye people maye not be suffred to haue the newe testament in englysshe whyche I call the gospell W. O ye meane Tyndals Gospell N. In dede though Tyndall was the trāslatour it is the worde of God and the verye same testament whyche ye haue in latyn of the euangelystes puttynge forth W. yetlerned mē and good men haue founden suche fawtes in his corrupt translation that it is for the same well and lawfully forbiden N. if they be good men as ye saye the haue founde it fauty I should reken thē better a great deale which wold amend it W. Though it were amended sufficiently corrected yet wyll I not saye that it is expediente for laye people to haue it considering the time as it is nowe N. Whye ye sayd that the gospell maye not be kept frō christē men W. No more it maye thoughe it be restrayned from the laye people in theyr vulgare tonge For the worde of God whiche is the worde of fayth as Scripture sayth is nere the in thy mouth in thy harte to thintent thou mayste do it N. Than I pray you where saynte Paule sayth that fayth cometh by herynge and herynge cometh by the worde of God how can we haue it without preachynge or information of it by readynge of scrypture W. Outwarde preaching and lyterall redyng of scripture are necessary meanes to attayne vnto the knowlege of the spyrite N. Wherfore then is the Gospell wythholden from the laye people W. I sayd they be two thynges necessarye but I sayde not that both twayne be to euerye man necessary But it is necessarye that euery man haue the tone or the tother and so haue they for they haue the worde of God preched expouned vn to them N. ye as the preistes lyste with false gloses W. Wyth the same gloses that the olde holy doctours sayntes haue made other maner of mē thā Luther Tyndale which now corrupt the trewth wyth theyr false gloses N. But why should not the comē people haue the scrypture them self in theyr own mother tong W Because of theyr abuse makyng of theyr owne gloses many also for theyr vnworthynes accordynge to Christes cōmaundement forbiddynge to cast perles before swyne or to gyue holy thynges to dogges Dyd not saynt Paul forbidde women to speake the worde of god in congregacyons for the auoydyng of abuse and dysorder Also dyd not he and Bar nabas forsake preachyng to the iewes because of theyr vnworthynes N. That is not a lyke case for the text is playn that the iewes wylfully resisted the worde of god and wolde not receyue it But these people are so desyrous that they putte theym selfes in no small ieopardye many tymes for the hauyng of it W. I graunt there be some which of a good mynd are desirous to haue the gospell in theyr mother tōge for the erudyciō cōfort of theyr soules But they that be suche good folk may be wel sufficiently fed with the gospell punched so wyll they rather chese to be than to haue the scrypture ronne in euery rasshe bodyes hande the wold abuse it to their owne harme and other mēnes to For well ye wot many ther be and as it appeareth in Almayne where they haue the scripture translated alreadye the more part and farre the greater multitude are not lesse vnworthye in receyuinge it then were the Jewes in the wylfull resistaunce of Christes gospell whiche couet it onely for the libertie to be free from the exercyse of penaunce and doyng of good workes to rayle and iest of other mennes fawtes wyth out any correctiō of their owne synfull lyues nothyng conformable to the vertue of the gospell whereof to bable manye wordes they are not dombe Marke it there substauncially in cities and townes where ye se the people most ryfest most busye to prate of the Gospell whether they be or not as gret vsurers disceiuers of they re neyboures blasphemous swerers euyll spekers and geuen to all vyces as depely as euer they were This I am sure of and dare boldely affirme that sythe the tyme of this new contencious lernyng the drede of God is greatlye quenched and charitable compassion sore abated Shall ye not se there a cock brayned courtier that hath no more fayth than a Turke lesse christen maners thā a Pagane with lordelye coūtenaūce knauyshe conditions whiche takyng the name of god ī vayne shall vnreuerently alledge the gospell with scoffyng and scornynge in reprehensyon of the clargye where as hys owne ●ewd lyuynge is so vnthryfty that ye can not aspy one good pyont in hym except it be vpon his hosen nor a nynche of honesty besyde his apparayle nor scantly therone neyther beyng al to hacked and iagged wyth dowble weapen redy to fyght and syngle wyt busy to brawle and chyde more lyke a furious tormentour of Herode than apacyēt dysciple of Christ Shal ye not also se there a marchaūt perauēture made a gentyll mā by promocion ere euer that he had a good yemās condicyōs whych gettynge hys chefe substaunce as many do there by vsury false dysceyte of trewe people and other wrongfull wayes wyll take vpon hym to preache the Gospell agaynste the auaryce of relygious persones how they hauyng theyr bare necessary foode ought to parte the resydue of theyr gooddes with pore people where as he hym selfe hath thousandes lyenge by hym in store vnoccupyed and wyll nother help his poore neyghbour nor scarcely gyue a galy halpeny to a nedy creature in extreme necessyte And at theyr belly festig days amonge such of theyr affynyte which are not so wyse nor well lerned as they wolde be sene yf it chaunce them to haue