body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
he say the contrarie For these be his wordes That forgiuenes of his sinnes was graunted that he might not be stopped from receiuing life euerlasting and yet the effect of that same threatening followed that his godlines mighte in that humilitie be exercised and proued not onely but also as he saide in another place that he might thereby be beaten temporally for his deserts though he expresse not this cause also in this place for that he had here to answere the Pelagians and shewe some cause why death if it came onely by sinne by originall sinne remaineth still vpon all men euen them also whose originall sinnes are so fully forgiuen in Baptisme that they owe nothing neither eternally neither temporally for them Pur. 43. But for a slat conclusion contradictory to M. Allens assertion I will vse you say the very words of Chrysostome in the 8. Hom. vpon the Epistle to the Rom. Vbi veniâ— ibi nulla erit poena Where there is forgiuenes there is no punishment One may sée by this that you would vse the Doctors words as couragiously as we do if they were on your side as they be on ours But it cooleth your courage because you are faine to coÌ„fesse them in many things to be playne against you and not able neither to mainteine that they be with you when you pretende they be As here S. Chrysostome speaketh of the forgiuenes geuen in Baptisme to the Iew passing from the wrath of the Lawe to the grace of Christ But our assertion speketh of the forgiuenes geuen in the Sacrament of penance to the Christian that hath shamefully dishonored the grace of Christ If such be contradictories with you then as your Diuinitie is new so is your Logicke also new Satisfaction Pur. 87. Against the third you alleage Chrysostome Ambrose but how fondly the very words that you alleage though we seeke no further Chryso de compun cordis li. 1. in fine will declare Non requirit Deus ciliciorum pondus c. God requireth not the burden of shirtes of heare saith Chrysostome nor to be shut vp in the straites of a litle Cell neque iubet neither doth he commaunde vs to sit in obscure darke Caues this only it is which is required of vs that we alwayes remember and â—count our sinnes c. He there reproueth them that 〈…〉 â—rie mourning for their owne soules quasi quidum 〈◊〉 labor sit as if it were a labour intolerable Therefore he saith that God doth not commaund as necessarie that 〈…〉 take him selfe to the straite â—mourning of Monkes 〈…〉 And 〈◊〉 forsooth do tell vs therupon that Chrysostome â—f any man had 〈…〉 â—ther beleeue him speaking of such kind of wo◠〈…〉 his fellowes count to be the chiefe works of pâ—n 〈…〉 that they serue not for satisfaction for our sinnes vnto God 〈…〉 againe Therfore by Chrysostomes iudgement that 〈…〉 satisfaction of Gods righteousnes nor any obedience of Gods commaundement hath banished the Heremites 〈…〉 Anachoretes and cloyed the world with cloysterers but the superstitious and slauish feare of Purgatorie and the blasphemous presumptuous pride of mens merites Thus you take on as it were vpon S. Chrysostomes saying not considering that Demetrius was a Monke to whom he there writeth commending 〈◊〉 singulerly for the very same works of penance 〈…〉 nor that Chrysostome also him selfe was a Monke and that by your owne coÌ„fession and wrote a booke which is extant Aduersus vituperatores vitae Monasticae Against the dispraysers of the Monasticall life that is euen against you also for saying as you do in this place Againe you say Pur. 8â— Aâ— in 〈◊〉 22. li. 1â— What S. Ambrose thinketh of that kind of satisfaction whereof M. Allen speaketh is plaine by those words which he vttereth of Peter Lachrymas eius lego satisfactionem non lego I reade of his teares I reade not of his satisfaction He vttereth these words also there immediatly before Non inuenio quid dixerit inuenio quod fleuerit I find not what he said I find that he wept Whatsoeuer you gather hereof he that readeth the place must néedes gather the contrarie so wit that he thinketh Confession necessarie and satisfaction necessarie but that teares are both a special kind of coÌ„fession for Lachrymae crimen sine offensione verecundiae coÌ„â—tentur Teares confesse the crime without touch of shamfastnes quod voce pudor est consiterâ— that to confesse with voyce is a shamefast thing and also a speciall kind of Satisfaction forLachrymae veniam Teares though they do not aske pardon they obteine it Which yet againe he saith not as though onely teares woulde serue but Peteâ— opened not his mouth least so quicke requesting of pardon might more offend First we must weepe and then request But a playne place to know what S. Ambrose thought of Penance and Satisfaction is his whole booke To the Virgin that had broken her vow and namely these words Ambro. ad virg lapsaÌ„ ca. 8. Pur. 84. Grande sâ—elus grandem habet necessariam satisfactionem For a passing great crime is necessarie a passing great satisfaction Which words import none other thing you say but that an haynous offence must be earnestly bewayled if repentance be not counterfaited As though he there doubted lest her repentance were counterfaite and not earnest saying yet vnto her Tu quae iam ingressa es agonem poenitentiae Thou who art already entred into the or exercise field of penance with muche more to the same effect declaring I say that he tooke her penance to be vnfaigned as béeing well begon but yet besides that her whole life is litle enough to make iust satisfaction vnto God Pardons Wherein he is so vehement that you come agayne on the other side touching our fourth Article and pretende by the same word of his that the Church can not pardon the penance or satisfaction which sinners do owe. Where I say nothing how you ouerthrow your owne ignorant imagination that the old Canonicall satisfaction was onely to satisfie the Church ur 8 5. and not to satisfie Gods iustice As though not only the Church but also euery priuate man may not pardon such kind of satisfaction as the sinner oweth to him and hold himselfe contented with as litle as he list Therfore to omit this He assureth her you say as Cyprian in his Sermon de Lapsis doth the fallen men of his time that forgiuenes of sinnes is proper vnto God onely and followeth not of necessitie the sentence of men but the sentence of men ought to follow the iudgement of God Pur. 73. Alluding belike to the place where somewhat afore you alleaged Cyprian gathered of his words that not onely he plainly denieth that absolute soueraigne authority of men which M. Allen affirmeth but also declareth what he meaneth by satisfaction of God to wit inwarde and hartie conuersion The two places in déede are like although the fall of that
hence there is now no place of penance no effect of satisfaction Here life is either lost or saued Here euerlasting saluation is procured by the worshipping of one God and by the fruitfulnes of faith This forsooth is that which can not stande with the Papists opinion of Purgatory By this forsooth appereth what Cyprians iudgement was of Purgatory and the effect of satisfaction after this life And againe because exhorting there Demetrianus him selfe Proconsul of Africa to repeÌ„tance which had bene so you say deceitfully Chaunging as though he now were conuerted for that you should haue said which presently was a wicked man and a persecutor of the Christians he saith to him Tu sub ipso licet exitu vitae temporalis occasu c. Do thou although it be but a litle before thy end and setting of this temporall life pray for thy sinnes to the God which is the one and true God Confessionem fidem agnitionis eius implores Do thou humbly call for confession and faith of acknowledging him he alludeth to the ceremonie quid petis Fidem Venia coÌ„fitenti datur credenti indulgentia salutaris de diuina pietate conceditur Pardon is giuen to him that confesseth and healthfull forgiuenes is graunted by Gods goodnes to him that beleeueth Et ad immortalitatem sub ipsa morte transitur and euen at the poynt of death is passage to immortalitie Because Christ doth quicken him that is mortall by the heauenly regeneration viuificat mortalem regeneratione coelesti This which is so expresly written of the Infidels in hell and of Baptisme to pretend it as you do to be written of the faithfull in Purgatory and of penance after Baptisme argueth playnly that either you sawe not the place in S. Cyprian or rather that séeing you would not sée Of the same sort it is that Pur. 82. Cyp. de Lapsis where S. Cyprian speaketh of Deniers of Christ in persecution which would not afterward come to the Priestes to confession and saith Euery one I beseeche you brethren confesse his sinne whilest yet he that sinned is in this world whilest his confession may be receiued whilest satisfaction and remission facta per Sacerdotes made by the authoritie of the Priestes is acceptable with our Lord you gather therevpon and say If men can not satisfie nor Priest remit but whilest men are in this life then farewell satisfaction for the dead and Purgatory As though we hold that they which will not submit them selues to the Priestes in this life may be holpen after their death Or that confession may be made by the dead and satisfaction enioyned them and that béeing done absolution giuen them by the Priestes Againe it is of the same sorte which you alleage out of S. Chrysostome where first you confesse that he holdeth expresly Pur. 2â—1 prayers to profite the dead and alleageth Scripture for it your words I recited in cap. 3. and that notwithstanding say afterward Otherwise when he iudged vprightly according to the Scripture his words sounde cleane contrarie to the opinion of Purgatory and works of other men to be meritorious for the dead as in the very next Homily being the 42. in 1. Cor. Quapropter oro c. What a worthy S. Chrysostome was euery kinde of way I néede not to saye I can admire him I am not able to commend him sufficiently But what a base opinion haue you of him as also of so many others his peares to think him so grosse Caluins intolerable light hath marred Fulkes eyes to speake cleane contrarie to him selfe and that vpon one Epistle yea in the very next Homily You do herein nothing els but iustifie my saying in the beginning of this chapter that you can not in déede shew the Doctors to be for you against vs but that in déede you coÌ„fesse them to be with vs against you and pretend onely that they be agaynst vs in so much as they be pretensiuely against them selues But why did you not aswell say that D. Allen him selfe is against vs in that in the seuenth chapter of his second booke he sheweth Pur. 271. That the benefite of prayer almes apperteineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne For what els doth S. Chrysostome say in that long allegation of yours but that no friend no iust shall helpe him that dyeth in mortal sinne either committing euill that he ought to refrayne or omitting good that he ought to atchieue beséeching them therefore to conuert and amend and to get agaynst they dye good words of their owne to trust in before that Iudge Pur. 112. Ambro. in Psal 40. Likewise of S. Ambrose you confessed cap. 3. pag. 16. Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead And yet because he saith Bene addidit in terra quia nisi hic mundatus fuerit ibi mundus esse non poterit The Prophet did well to adde on earth for if he be not clensed here he can not be clensed from his mortall sinnes But the true translation is he can not be cleane there neither from his veniall sinnes though from them he maye be clensed there as also from the temporall debte of his remitted mortall sinnes yet I saye by these words it is playne inough with you that Ambrose allowed no purging after this life One place more or two you alleage more out of the same Doctor Pur. 106. with this note therevpon Thus saith Ambrose playnely in this place whatsoeuer he speaketh allegorically of the Fyerie sworde in other places as in Psal 118. Ser. 20. and in Psal 65. by occasion of which two places you graunt not long after that the Old writers opinion was Pur. 132. that all men were they neuer so iust passed through that fire into Paradise and were purified thereby because they ascribed to Purgatory fire those two operations the one whereof S. Augustine we as I said erewhile do doubt of All this notwithstanding the same Ambrose you say vpon Rom. 5. ouerthroweth Purgatorie in that it followeth of his words there Pur. 105. that no man feeleth paine after this life but he that shal feele it eternally And surely to the same effect he speaketh in his booke De bono mortis you say onely because cap. 4. where he concludeth that death in euery respect is good yea although a man haue liued yll and shall after death abye for it for also in that case non mors malum sed vita Not his death but his life was euill among others this cause he rendreth quia deteriorem statum non efficit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio futoro reseruat because it maketh not the yll state worse but such state as it findeth in euery one suche it reserueth to the iudgement to come Now who saith that Purgatory after death altereth the state of the euill to worse yea or also that it promoteth the state of the good to better
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to