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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A04215	A defence of the churches and ministery of Englande Written in two treatises, against the reasons and obiections of Maister Francis Iohnson, and others of the separation commonly called Brownists. Published, especially, for the benefitt of those in these partes of the lowe Countries.	Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624.	1599 (1599)	STC 14335; ESTC S107526	96,083	102

vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitionsly depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our stare but I say Thus to beleeue and practize simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt answer You deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to bee saued wherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct which in the beginning I charged you with That all Churches and Christians here in Kinge Edwards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tayler c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they were lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see how malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry say against you O shamelesse mouth ô vnchristian heart which termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs and yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practize as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches nowe Yea betwene your owne lately and ours now speake out what is it Yow can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outward Church order which wee doe But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity we malitiously they of ignorance wee of plaine obstinacie and hauing a conuicted and seared conscience whereby they you might be true Christians for all these errors but we now cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against which all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a perticuler man a true Christian Secondly wee now erre not in these poincts of simplicitie but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you knowe euery mans heart and conscience so well If you doe then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whom you dare say are conuicted in cōscience That is much also to affirme But if you doe that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and chiefest in authoritie that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blaspheamed in denying him And yet the Assemblies then where not conuicted they still were true Churches Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Reply That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruell that you say Maister Hus and others of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledge the Popes supremacie I aske you doe you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therin are founde errors plainely fundamental which of them selues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publike errours now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning therof as the Popish Doctors doe set it down Then verily neither were they any Martirs The booke of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errours in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held manie and greuious errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse and in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucifyed And so they might be were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you said before in the beginning of your desence of this Exception * Pag. 13. That Master Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had them selues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and known falsehoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold himselfe for Archbishop still and that hee was by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreyned from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishoprick of London though ready to die Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministerie and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked h●s Arch-deaconry Yea when he refused bloudy Bonner Yer he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally whosoeuer were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they died Martirs Thus appeareth your bould vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt answer Pag. 16. First you will not see what I meane in saying That these outward orders bee not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very * 1 Cor. 15.2 3 4. Rom. 4.25 1. Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I answer neither were the Iewes outward orders of the very foundation without which they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aron only about the Priesthood and Ministerie were separated from and damned I answer not that the matter was fundamentall but the Manner was rebellious with consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne with a high hand against God him selfe But now this considered How vainely doe you charge mee in your entrance into this Excep pa. 13. That I others of my minde goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersy by Cranmer Ridlies and Latimers example and their Congregations then For shame doe you not see the cōtrary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their exāple that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as

Jewes are they not therefore to be separated from So in deed he would conclude in this place But then let him tell vs if Corah Dathan and Abiram the Apostate Jewes vnder Ieroboam the Corinthians Papistes c might not alleadge some particular exception wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separatiō be made from these The scripture teacheth otherwise Numb 16.25 26. 2 Chrō 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Reu. 18.4 Secondly cōsider the place it selfe Act. 19.9 cōpare it with their estate practise in England see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from thē as frō the other Are not these now hardned against the trueth Let their writings against it their imprisonning banishing and killing for it giue euidence Doe they not disobey it Let their constitution and practize be witnesse Speake they not euill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of their Ministers in the pulpit the speaches of the Prelates in their Courtes beare record Therefore saith that “ Actes 19.9 Actes 2.40 Scripture Actes 19 they are to be departed and separated from Wherevnto also may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2 Saue your selues from this froward generation Thidly were he obiecteth That Paule did not separate frō all the other Iewes as he did from these Acts 19. and sheweth it by Act. 13.14 and 16.3 21 23 24 26. 3.1 we answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to doe For first the Jewes * Rom. 9.4 Leuit. 20.22 24 26. Luk. 1.6.8 c. were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true waand order of God Secondly * Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 and 13.46 Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the worlde that they should first preach it to the Iewes Thirdlie the Iewes ministerie ceremonies being the ordinances of God him selfe and giuen in writing by Moses the man of God “ Act. 15.21 and 21.30 21 22 23 24 25. Heb. 8.5 13. 9.1 c. were therefore nowe when they should cease to be buried with honor These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to doe as they did in those places mentioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which neuer yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stande in the * Reue. 13.16 17. and 18 2. 2 The. 2.3 4 8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose ministerie also and worshippe were neuer the ordinances of God But * Reue. 17.2 4 and 18.3 and 9.3 c. taken out of the whores Cup of Babilon for which likewise God neuer gaue Comaundement to goe vnto them but to “ Reue. 18.4 with 17.9 1 Tim. 6 3 5. departe from them as being daughters of the greate Babilon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Againe euen from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid yet when they put from them the trueth and would not receyue it the Apostles departed and separated thē selues yea and shooke off the dust of their feete against them teaching others to doe so likewise Actes 13.46 51. and 18.6 28 25 26 27 28. and 20.40 and 19.8 9. To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is answered before And hetherto of their generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by lawe in Englande is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which wee haue shewed to be vntrue both by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid which still stande firme against them as is manifest by this our defence Touching the conclusion And now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of trueth iudge whether we or they holde Paradoxes Touching that he saith of the reformed Churches he is deceyued if he thinke they allowe their present estate and church constitution Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie as wee haue declared at large in “ In the answers of Ma. Carthwrights reasons of Maist Hildersams letter c. other treatises which yet remayne vnanswered wherevnto we referre the Reader in this behalfe Where he sayth That we our selues heretofore haue acknowledged and professed it to wit their general Assumption aforesaid to be true he is also deceyued therein we haue alway * You maie speake it with shame enough testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appoincted to exile and put to death besides many other iniuries grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause In deed we haue acknowledged and doe acknowledge that they professe diuers excellent truthes but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by law in England doeth make them in that estate true Christians neuer anie of vs that we know of did once acknowledge And therfore till he shew vs the contrarie we must needes thinke that he falsely burtheneth vs all and specially such of vs as he hath mentioned here in particular To that which he next addeth of the Martirs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already in the defence of our Seconde Exception and First Reason wherevnto may be added for more euidēce of the trueth the particular speaches testimonies of the holy Martirs them selues both then and in former tymes As of Maister Bradford who “ Actes monuments 2. vo in his conference with Peter Henth speaking of the dayes before Queene Marie saide The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreouer “ In his firste speach with D. Harpsfielde Archdeacon That the scripture knoweth not any difference betweene Bishops and Ministers which men call Priestes And that the scripture speaking of Bishops can not be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Also of Maister Hooper who held and “ Hooper on the eight commandment published that a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the scripture in case of Religion as to driue a Cammell through the eye of a needle And agayne he sayth The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be nowe a dayes And againe What blindnesse sayth he is there befell in the world that can not see this palpable yll that our Mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse time then our Bishops horses bee a brideling And John Bale an exile for the testimonie of Jesu writing vpon the Reuelation * Bale in his booke called The Image of both churches vpon Reu. 13.1 and 17.3 affirmeth moreouer That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beastes head Reuel 13. and