Kingdom with Thieves and Beggars 3. That if all our impotent Poor were provided for and tâ—ose of both Sexes and all Ages that can do Work of any kind employed it would redound some Hundreds of Thousands of Pounds per annum to the publick Advantage 4. That it is our Duty to God and Nature so to Provide for and Employ the Poor 5. That by so doing one of the great Sins for which this Land ought to mourn would be râ—moved 6. That our fore-Fathers had pious Intentions towards this good Work as appears by the many Statutes made by them to this purpose 7. That there are places in the VVorld wherein the Poor are so provided for and employed as in Holland Hambrough New-England and others and as I am informed now in the City of Paris Thus far we all agree The first Question then that naturally occurs is Question How comes it to pass that in England we do not nor ever did comfortably Maintain and Employ our Poor The common Answers to this Question are two 1. That our Laws to this purpose are as good as any in the World but we fail in the execution 2. That formerly in the days of our pious Ancestors the work was done but now Charity is deceased and that is the reason we see the Poor so neglected as now they are In both which Answers I humbly conceive the Effect is mistaken for the Cause For though it cannot be denied but there hath been and is a great failure in the Execution of those Statutes which relate to the Poor yet I say the cause of that failure hath been occasioned by defect of the Laws themselves For otherwise what is the reason that in our late times of Confusion and Alteration wherein almost every Party in the Nation at one time or other took their turn at the Helm and all had that Compass those Laws to Stear by and yet none of them could or ever did conduct the Poor into a Harbour of security to them and profit to the Kingdom i. e. none sufficiently maintained the Impotent and employed the Indigent amongst us And if this was never done in any Age nor by any sort of Men whatsoever in this Kingdom who had the use of those Laws now in force it seems to me a very strong Argument that it never could nor ever will be done by those Laws and that consequently the defect lies in the Laws themselves not in the Men i. e. those that should put them in Execution As to the second Answer to the aforesaid Question wherein want of Charity is assigned for another cause why the Poor are now so much neglected I think it is a scandalous ungrounded Accusation of our Contemporaries except in relation to Building of Churches which I confess this Generation is not so prophense to as former have been for most that I converss with are not so much troubled to part with their Money as how to place it that it may do good and not hurt to the Kingdom For if they give to the Beggars in the Streets or at their Doors they fear they may do hurt by encouraging that Lazy Unprofitable kind of Life and if they give more thâ—n their Proportions in their respective Parishes that they say is but giving to the Rich for the Poor are not set on Work thereby nor have the more given them but only their Rich Neighbours pay the less And for what was given in Churches to the visited Poor and to such as were impoverished by the Fire we have heard of so many and great Abuses of that kind of Charity that most Men are under sad discouragements in relation thereunto I write not this to divert any Man from Works of Charity of any kind He that gives to any in Want does well but he that gives to Employ and Educate the Poor so as to render them useful to the Kingdom in my judgment does better And â—here by the way not to leave Men at a loss how to dispose of what God shall incline their Hearts to give for the Benefit of the Poor I think it not Impertinent to propose the Hospitals of this City and Poor Labouring People that have many Children and make a hard shift to sustain them by their Industery whereof there are multitudes in the out Parts of this City as the best Objects of Charity at present But to return to my purpose viz. to prove that the want of Charity likewise that is now and always hath been in relation to the Poor proceeds from a defect in our Laws Ask any Charitable minded Man as he goes along the Streets of London viewing the Poor viz. Boyes Girles Men and Women of all Ages and many in good Health c why he and others do not take care for the setting those poor Creatures to Work Will he not readily answer that he wisheth heartily it could be done though it cost him a great part of his Estate but he is but one Man and can do nothing towards it giving them Money as hath bâ—en said being but to bring them into a liking and continuance in that way The second Question then is Question 2. Wherein lies the defect of our present Laws relatiâ—g to the Poor I answer that there may be many but I shall here take notice of one only which I think to be Fundamental and which until altered the Poor in England can never be well Provided for or Employed and that when the said fundamental Error is well amended it is almost impossible they should lack either Work or Maintenance The said radical Error I esteem to be the leaving it to the care of every Parish to Maintain their own Poor only upon which follows the shifting off sending or whiping back the poor Wanderers to the Place of their Birth or last Abode the practice whereof I have seen many years in London to signifie as much as ever it will which is just nothing of good to the Kingdom in general or the Poor thereof though it be sometimes by accident to some of them a Punishment without effect I say without effect because it reforms not the Party nor desposeth the minds of others to Obedience which are the true ends of all Punishment As for instance a poor idle Person that will not Work or that no Body will Employ in the Country comes up to London to set up the Trade of Begging such a person probably may Begg up and down the Streets seven years it may be seven and twenty before any Body asketh why she doth so and if at length she hath the ill hap in some Parish to meet with a more vigilant Beadle then one of twenty of them are all he does is but to lead her the length of five or six Houses into another Parish and then concludes as his Masters the Parishioners do that he hath done the part of a most diligent Officer But suppose he should yet go further to the end of his Line which is the
Lastly The lowness of Interest of Money with them which in peaceable times exceeds not three per cent per annum and is now during this War with England not above four per cent at most Some more Particulars might be added and those aforesaid further improved were it my purpose to discourse at large of Trade But seeing most of the former Particulars are observed and granted by all men that make it any part of their business to inspect the true nature and Principles of Trade but the last is not so much as taken notice of by the most Ingenious to be any Cause of the great encrease of the Riches and Commerce of that people I shall therefore in this Paper confine my self to write principally my Observations touching that viz. The Profit That People have received and any other may receive by reducing the Interest of Money to a very low rate This in my poor opinion is the Causa Causans of all the other causes of the Riches of that People and that if Interest of Money were with us reduced to the same rate it is with them it would in a short time render us as rich and considerable in Trade as they now are and consequently be of greater damage to them and advantage to us then can happen by the Issue of this present War though the success of it should be as good as we can wish except it end in theâ—r total Ruin and Extirpation To illustrate this let us Impartially search our Books and enquire what the state and condition of this Kingdom was as to Trade and Riches before any Law concerning Interest of Money was made The first whereof that I can find was Anno 1545. and we shall be informed that the Trade of England then was Inconsiderable and the Merchants very mean and few And that afterwards viz. Anno 1635. within ten Years after Interest was brought down to eight per Cent there was more Merchants to be found upon the Exchange worth each One Thousand Pounds and upwards then were in the former dayes viz. before the Year 1600. to be found worth One Hundred Pounds each And now since Interest hath been for about twenty Years at six per Cent notwithstanding our long civil Wars and the great complaints of the deadness of Trade there are more men to be found upon the Exchange now worth Ten thousand Pounds Estates then were then of One thousand Pounds And if this be doubted let us ask the aged whether five hundred pounds Portion with a Daughter sixty Years ago were not esteemed a larger proportion then Two thousand pounds is now And whether Gentlewomen in those dayes would not esteem themselves well cloathed in a Searge Gown which a Chamber-Maid now will be ashamed to be seâ—n in Whether our Citizens and middle sort of Gentry now are not more rich in Cloaths Plate Jewels and Houshold-Goods c. then the best sort of Knights and Gentry were in those days And whether our best sort of Knights and Gentry now do not exceed by much in those things the Nobility of England sixty Years past Many of whom then would not go to the price of a whole Sattin-Doublet the Embroiderer being yet living who hath assured me he hath made many hundreds of them for the Nobility with Canvas backs Which way ever we take our measures to me it seems evident that since our first abatement of Interest the Riches and Splendor of this Kingdom is increased to above four I might say above six times so much as it was We have now almost One hundred Coaches for one we had formerly We with ease can pay a greater Tax now in one Year then our Fore fathers could in twenty Our Customs are very much improved I believe above the proportion aforesaid of six to one which is not so much in advance of the Rates of Goods as by encrease of the bulk of Trade for though some Foreign Commodities are advanced others of our Native Commodities and Manufactures are considerably abated by the last Book of Rates I can my self remember since there were not in London used so many Wharfs or Keys for the Landing of Merchants Goods by at least one third part as now there are and those that were then could scarce have Imployment for half what they could do and now notwithstanding one third more used to the same purpose they are all too little in a time of Peace to land the Goods at that come to London If we look into the Country we shall find Lands as much Improved since the abatement of Interest as Trade c. in Cities that now yielding twenty Years purchase which then would not have sold for above eight or ten at most Besides the Rent of Farms have been for these last thirty Years much advanced and although they have for these thâ—ee or four last years fallen that hath no respect at all to the lowness of Interest at present nor to the other mistaken Reasons which are commonly assigned for it But principally to the vast Improvement of â—reland since a great part of it was lately possessâ—d by the Industrous English who were Soldiers in the late Aâ—my and the late great Land-Taxes More might be said but the Premises being considered I judge will sufficiently demonstrate how greatly this Kingdom of England hath been advanc'd in all respects for these last fifty Years And that the abatement of Interest hath been the cause thereof to me seems most probable because as it appears it hath been in England so I find it is at this day in all Europe and other parts of the World Insomuch that to know whether any Country be rich or poor or in what proportion it is so no other Question nâ—eds to be resolved but this viz. What Interest do they pay for Money Near home we see it evidently in Scotland and Ireland where ten and twelve per Cent is paid for Interest the People are poor and despicable their Persons ill cloathed their Houses worse provided and Money intollerably scarce notwâ—thstanding they have great plenty of all â—rovisions nor will their Land yield above eight or ten Years purchase at most In France where Money is at seven per Cent their Lands will yield about eighteen Years purchase and the Gentry who may possess Lands live in good condition though the â—easants are little better then Slaves because they can possess nothing but at the will of others In Italy Money will not yield above three per Cent to be let out upon real Security there the People are rich full of Trade well attired and their Lands will sell at thirty five to forty Years purchase and that it is so or better with them in Holland is too manifest In Spain the usual Interest is ten and twelve per Cent and there notwithstanding they have the only Trade in the World for Gold and Silver Money is no where more scarce the people poor despicable and void of Commerce other then such as
English Dutch Italians Iews and other Foreigners bring to them who are to them in effect but as Leeches who suck their Blood and vital Spirits from them I might urge many other Instâ—nces of this nature not only out of Christendom but from under the Turks Dominions East-Indâ—a and America But every man by his Eperience in Foreign Countries may easâ—y inform himself whether this Rule do universally hold true or not For my own part to satisfie my own curiosity I have for some Years as occasion offered diligently enquired of all my acquaintance that had knowledge of foreign Countries and I can truly say that I never found it to fail in any particular Instance Now if upon what hath been said it be granted that defacto this Kingdom be richer at least four-fold I might say eight-fold then it was before any Law for Interest was made and that all Countries are at this day richer or poorer in an exact proportion to what they pay and have usually paid for the Iâ—terest of Moâ—ey it remains that we enquire carefully whether the abatement of Interest be in truth the Cause of the Riches of any Country or only the Concomitant or Effect of the Riches of a Country in which seems to lie the Intricacy of this Question To satisfie my self wherein I have taken all opportunities to discourse this point with the most ingenious men I had the Honour to be known to and have searcht for and read all the Books that I could ever hear were printed against the Abatement of Interest and seriously considered all the Arguments and Objections used by them against it All which have tended to confirm me in this opinion which I bumbly offer to the consideration of wiser Heads viz. That the Abatement of Interest is the Cause of the Prosperity Riches of any Nation and that the bringing down of Inteâ—est in this Kingdom from six to four or three per Cent will necessarily in less then twenty Years time double the Capital Stock of the Nation The most material Objections I have met with against it are as follows Object 1. To abate Interest will cause the Dutch and other People that have Money put out at Interest in England by their Friends and Factors to câ—ll home their Estates and consequently will occasion a great scarcity and want of Money amongst us To this I answer That iâ— Interest be brought but to four peâ— Cent no Dutchman will call in his Money that is out upon good Security in England because he cannot make above three per Ceâ—t of it upon Interest at home But if they should call home all the Money they have with us at Interest it would be better for us than if they did it not for the Borrower is alwayes a slave to the Lender and shall be sure to be always kept poor while the other is fat and full HE THAT USETH A STOCK THAT IS NONE OF HIS OWN BEING FORCED FOR THE UPHOLDING HIS REPUTATION TO LIVE TO THE FULL IF NOT ABOVE THE PROPORTION OF WHAT HE DOTH SO USE WHILE THE LENDER POSSESING MUCH AND USING LITTLE OR NONE LIVE ONLY AT THE CHARGE OF WHAT HE USETH AND NOT OF WHAT HE HATH Besides if with this Law for abatement of Interest a Law for Transferring Bills of Debt should pass we should not miss the Dutch Money were it ten times as much as it is amongst us for that such a Law will certainly supply the the defect of at least one half of all the ready Money we have in use in the Nation Object 2. If Interest be abated Land musâ—â—ise in purchase and consequeâ—tly 〈…〉 if Rents then the Fruits of the Land and so all things will be dear and how shaâ—â— the Poor live c. Answ. To this I say If it follow that the Fruits of our Land in consequenâ—e of such a Law for abatement of Interest grow generally dear â—t is an evident demonstration that our People grow richer for generally where-ever Provisions are for continuance of Years dear in any Country the People are rich and where they are most cheap throughout the World for the most part the People are very poor And for our own Poor in England it is observed That they live better in the dearest Countries for Provisions than in the cheapest and better in a dear year than in a cheap especially in relation to the publick good for that in a cheap Year they will not work above two dayes in a Week their humour being such that they will not provide for a hard time but just work so much and no more as may maintain them in that mean condition to which they have been accustomed Object 3 If Interest be abated Vsurers will call in their Money so what shall Gentlemen do whose Estates are Mortgaged c. Answ. I answer That when they know they can make no more of their Money by taking out of one and putting it in another hand they will not be so forward as they thâ—eaten to alter that Security they know is good for another that may be bad Or if they should do it our Laws are not so severe but that Gentlemen may take time to dispose of part of their Land which immediately after such a Law will yield them thirty years purchase at least and much better it is for them so to do than to abide longer under that consuming Plague of Usury which hath insensibly destroyed very many of the best Families in England as well of our Nobility as Gentry Object 4. As Interest is now at six per cent the Kings Majesty upon any emergency can hardly be supplied and if it should be reduced to four per cent how shall the King find a considerable sum of Money to be lent him by his People Answ. I answer The abatement of Interest to the People is the abatement of Interest to the King when he hath occasion to take up Money For what is borrowed of the City of London or other Bodies Politick nothing can be demanded but the legal Interest and if the King have occasion to take up Money of private Persons being his Majesty according to good right is above the common course of Law the King must and always hath given more then the legal Rate As for instance The legal Rate is now six per cent but his Majesty or such as have disposed of his Majesties Exchequer-Tallies have been said to give ten and twelve in some cases and if the legal Rate were ten his Majesty might probably give thirteen or fourteen So if Interest be brought to four per cent his Majesty in such cases as he now gives ten must give six or seven by which his Majesty would have a clear advantage Object 5. If Interest be abated it will be a great prejudice to Widows and Orphans who have not Knowledge and Abilities to improve their Estates otherwise Answ. I answer That by our Law now Heirs and Orphans can recover no Interest from their Parents
That all Persons c. may Transfer the said Bills under their Hands to any other by a short Assignation on the back side 3. That every such Assignee may re-assign toties quoties 4. After such Assignment it shall not be in the power of any Assignor to make void release or discharge the Debt 5. No Debts after Assignment to be liable to any Attachments Execution Statute or Commission of Bankrupt or other Demand as the Estate of hiâ— or them that Assigned the same 6. That each Assignment shall absolutely vest the Property into the Assignee to all intents and purposes 7. That such Assignments being received and Receipts or Discharges given for the same shall be deemed good Payment 8. That all Goods sold above the value of 10 l. after the day of for which no such Bill or Writing obligatory shall be given or tendred as aforesaid to the seller or sellers thereof or to his or their Vse shall be deemed and construed to all Intents and Purposes in the Law as if the same had been contracted for to be paid in ready Money any Concession or verbal Agreement between the said Parties to the contrary notwithstanding This Clause I hope may be effectual to initiate us to a practice and observance of such a Law 6. That the first Assignment of any such Bill or Bills of Debt be to this or tho like ffect I A. B. do engage and attest that the Debt within mentioned is a true Debt and no part of it paid to me or to my use or discharged by me and I do hereby Assign over the same to C. D. for his own Account 10. And that the second and all other after Assignations upon any such Bills shall be to this or the like effect viz. I A. B. do attest that no part of the within-mentioned Debt is paid to me or my use or discharged by me and I do hereby Transfer the same to C. D. The Objections I have met with to the making such a Law are viz. Object 1. This would be repugnant to our common Law and some Statutes viz. Maintenance Champarty Bankrupt c. 1. I answer not so repugnant as at first view it seems to be for though by our Laws at present Bonds and Bills cannot be Assigned Mortgages which are but another kind of Security for Money lent may be Assigned 2. If any Laws at present are repugnant to the common good of the Nation and if the making of such a new Law will effectually encrease the useful Stock of the Nation at least one third part and greatly ease the course of Trade as I humbly conceive this will do I hope none will deny but it may consist with the Wisdom of Parliament to create new Laws 3. Most of our Statutes were made in times before we understood Trade in England and the same Policy and Laws that were good then and may yet be good for a Country destitute of Commerce may not be so â—it for us now nor for any Nation so abounding with Trade as England doth at present Object 2. May not this occasion many Cheats and Law Suites Answ. 1. I answer no Experience manifests the contrary not only in other Kingdoms and Countries abroad where Transferrance of Bills of Debt is in use but even in our own where we have for many Ages had the Experience of Indorsment on Bills of Exchange and in this present Age of the passing of Gold-Smiths Notes from one Man to another which two practices are very like to the designed way of Transferring Bills of Debt and yet no considerable Cheats or Inconveniencies have arisen thereby Answ. 2. No Man can be Cheated except it be with his own consent and we commonly say caveat emptor no Man is to be forced to accept anothers Bill that himself doth not approve of and no Man will accept of another Mans Bill except he know him or until he hath used means to satisfie himself concerning him no more then he will sell his Goods to a Stranger unless he hath some reason to believe he is able to pay him Object 3. Will not such a Law as this be very troublâ—som especially in Fairs and Markets and also to Gentlemen and Ladies when they shall be forced for all Goods they buy above the value of 10 l. to give Bills under their Hand and Seals I answer this Law will not at all Incomode Gentlemen as to what they Buy in Shops c. neither those that converse in Fairs and Markets for that which Gentlemen Buy in Shops c. and others in Fairs c. they either pay or promise ready Money or else say nothing of the time or payment which the Law understands to be the same with a promise of present pay so that if they give no Bills there is no penalty attends the neglect or refusal but only that the contract between the Buyer and Seller shall be presumed in the Law to be as if it were made for ready Money CHAP. VI. Concerning a Court Merchant I Have conceived great hope from the late most Prudent and Charitable Institution of that Iudicature for determination of Differences touching Houses Burned by the late Fire in London that this Kingdom will at length be blessed with a happy method for the speedy easie and cheap deciding of Differences between Merchants Masters of Ships and Seamen c. by some Court or Courts of Merchants like those which are established in most of the great Cities and Towns in France Holland and other places the want whereof in England is and hath ever been a great bar to the Progress and Grandure of the Trade of this Kingdom as for instance if Merchants happen to have differences with Masters and Owners of Ships upon Charter-parties or Accounts beyond â—ea c. The Suite is commonly first commenced in the Admiralty Court where after tedious Attendance and vast Expences probably just before the Cause should come to Determination it is either removed into the Deligates where it may hang in suspence until the Plantiff and Defendant have empty purses and grey Heads or else because most Contracts for Martain Affairs are made upon the Land and most Accidents happen in some Rivers or Harbours here or beyond Sea are not in alto mari The Defendant brings his Writ of Prohibition and removes the Cause into his Majesties Court of King's-Bench where after great Expences of Time and Money it is well if we can make our own Council being common Lawyers understand one half of our Case we being amongst them as in a Foreign Country our Language strange to them and theirs as strange to us after all no Attestations of Foreign Notaries nor other publick Instruments from beyond Sea being Evidences at Law and the Accounts depending consisting perhaps of an hundred or more several Articles which are as so many Issues at Law the Cause must come into the Chancery where after many Years tedious Travels to Westminster with black Boxes and green
A New DISCOURSE OF TRADE Wherein is Recommended several weighty Points relating to Companies of Merchants The Act of NAVIGATION NATURALIZATION of Strangers And our Woollen Manufactures The BALLANCE of TRADE And the Nature of Plantations and their Consesequences in Relation to the Kingdom are seriously Discussed And some Proposals for erecting a Court of Merchants for determining Controversies relating to Maritime Affairs and for a Law for Transferrance of Bills of Debts are humbly Offered By Sir Josiah Child London Printed and Sold by Iohn Everingham at the Star in Ludgate-Street in the Year 1693. December 24. 1692. IMPRIMATOR Edmund Bohun THE PREFACE THe following Answer to that Treatise entituled Interest of Money mistaken I wrote long before the last Session of Parliament that began the 19th of October 1669. but fore-seeing that that Session might be engaged in greater Debates of another Nature and in consequence not have leisure to consider this subject I deferred the Printing of it since which I have seen another Treatise wrote by Thomas Manly Gentleman endeavouring to prove That it will be for the advantage of this Kingdom to continue the Interst of Money at 6 per Cent but after several perusals of his Treatise I must needs say that either I understand nothing of this subject or else this Gentleman is the greatest Sâ—ranger to it that ever undertook to discourse it he having writ much but in my Opinion nothing to the purpose more than was much better though brieflier said by the Author of the fore-mentioned Treatise out of which most of his seems to be borrowed though the Words be varied with some additions of Interrogations Expostulations Similes and Circumlocutions Besides the Gentleman taking up things at random and for want of a due understanding of the matter is very unfortunate in his Instances of Fact viz. In his Preface about the middle his Words are Has Abatement of Vsury or some other sublime Policy obliged the French of late to set upon Trade and Manufactures And then he affirms that I dare not touch on that String in regard that Nation hath not for many Years altered Interest from 7 per Cent. To his Interrogation I answer positively that the Abatement of Usury hath done it and if you will not believe me read the French Edicts themselves and they will tell you so an Abstract of one whereof I have recited in the following Treatise To his Affirmation that I dare not touch upon this String I say I dare do it and put the whole issue upon this for the French in fact have brought down the Use of Money under 6 per Cent and that to 5 per Cent lately as I have been credibly informed and do believe and if they had omitted this all their bussling in other things would signifie very little in conclusion The Sweeds likewise since they established their Council of Trade and set themselves to the consideration of making themselves considerable by Trade have reduced their Interest from 10 to 6 per Cent. His following Words are Do Italy and Holland owe their Trade and Riches to the lowness of Vsury or to thâ—ir innate Frugality wonderful Industry and admirable Arts c I answer low Interest is the natural Mother of Frugality Industry and Arts which I hope the Gentleman's Eyes will be open enough to see by that time he hath read a little further and considered two or three Years longer But it may be said How can a low Interest be the natural Mother of Frugality when if this Gentleman be to be believed Abatement of our Vse-Money brought in our Drinking which he does not only say but prove as he thinks by an instance of Fact for he says we now spend usually twenty thousand Tuns of French Wine and he believes that a far greater quantity is yearly Imported and that the computation of Spanish Rhenish and Levant Wines far exceeds the former so that by his calculate as he says grounded upon a vâ—ry good authority viz. a Report to the House of Commons it should seem that there is about the quantity of forty five thousand Tuns of Wine of all sorts Imported annually into England But if it shall appear in Fact that before the last abatement of Interest from 8 to 6 per Cent we did usually import near twice the quantity of Wines annually we now do and that now in all sorts of Wines we do not import above the quantity of twenty thousand Tuns yearly then what will become of his large Structure built upon a Sandy Foundation Reader this is the Case and the matter of Fact truly recited by me which many of the honourable Members of the House of Commons well know and mistaken by him from whence I might with much more reason infer that the abatement of Interest drove out our Drinking so pro tanto it did but I know there were likewise other Causes for it especially the additional Duties that from time to time have been laid upon Wines But before I part with the Gentleman on this point I must note to him another monstrous mistake in Fact or at least in his Inference viz. he says that twenty thousand Tuns of French Wines at 2 s. 8 d. per Gallon amounts to 640000 l. and concludes if I understand him that so much is lost to England whereas were the matter of Fact as he supposeth which it is not so in any measure this inference would be strangely erroneous for by the expence of such a quantity we can rationally lose only the first cost which is but about 6 or 7 l. per Tun and that amounts to but 120000 l. or 140000 l. at the utmost all the rest being Freight Custom and Charges paid to the King and our own Country-men and consequently not lost to England To conclude this Head I do agree fully with the Gentleman that Luxury and Prodigality are as well prejudicial to Kingdoms as to private Families and that the expence of foreign Commodities especially foreign Manufactures is the worst expence a Nation can be inclinable to and ought to be prevented as much as possible but that nothing hath or will incline this or any other Nation more to Thriftiness and good Husbandry then abatement of Interest I think I have proved in the following Discourse and that therefore all that this Gentleman hath said about Luxury c. is against himself and for lessening of Interest The Gentleman at the beginning of his Preface saith He will not enquire into the lawfulness of Interest but leave the scrupulous to the several Discourses made publick on that subject For my part I shall agree with him in that likewise And to the intent that what hath been made publick formerly may the better be known I would entreat those that would be throughly satisfied therein diligently to peruse an excellent Treatise entituled The English Vsurer or Vsury condemned being a Collection of the Opinions of many of the learned Fathers of the Church of England
use the Artificial Stratagem of a Law to Establish Answ. 2. Although they have no Law expresly limitting Interest at present yet they have other Laws which we cannot yet arrive to which do effect the same thing among them and would do the like among us if we could have them One whereof is their ascertaining REAL SECURITIES by their PUBLICK REGISTERS For we see evidently Money is not so much wanting in England as Securities which Men account Infallible a remarkable Instance whereof is the East-India-Company who can and do take up what Money they please for four per cent at any time Another Law is Their constitution of BANKS and LUMBARDS whereby private Persons that have but tollerable credit may be supplied at easie rates from the State A third and very considerable one is Their Law for Transferring Bills of Debt mentioned in the beginning of this Discourse A fourth which is a Custom and in effect may be here to our Purpose accounted as a Law is the extraordinary Frugality used in all their Publick Affairs which in their greatest Extreamities have been such as not to compel them to give above four per cent for the loan of Money Whereas it is said His Majesty in some Cases of exigency when the National Supplies have not come in to answer the present Emergencies of Affairs hath been inforced to give above the usual Rates to Gold-Smiths and that encouraged them to take up great Sums from private Persons at the full rate of six per cent whereas formerly they usully gave but four per cent otherwise in humane probability Money would have fallen of it self to four per cent But again to conclude Every Nation does proceed according to peculiar Methods of their own in the Transactions of their publick Affairs and Law-makiâ—g And in this Kingdom it hath always been the Custom to reduce the Rate of Interest by a Law when Nature had prepared the matter fit for such an alteration as now I say it hath By a Law it was reduced from an unlimitted rate to ten and afterwards from ten to eight after that from eight to six And through the Blessing of Almighty God this Kingdom hath found as I think I have fully proved and every Mans Experience will witness prodigious success and advantage thereby And I doubt not through the like Blessing of God Almighty but this Generation will find the like great and good effects by the reduction of it from six to four which is now at the Birth And that the next Generation will yet see far greater Advantage by bringing it from four to three per cent TRADE AND Interest of Money considered c. CHAP. I. A short Reply to a Treatise entituled Interest of Money mistaken THere was never any thing propounded for Publick Good that did not meet with Opposition arising sometimes from the different apprehensions of men in regard of the way who yet have the same design as to the end sometimes from a dislike of the Person propounding or the humor of such as would have nothing brought into the World but by their own Midwifery and are therefore only displeased with a thing because they were not the first Proposers of it themselves sometimes from a more inveterate and corrupt Principle of wishing things worse because they are not well hating that any thing should be reformed because they cannot bring all things to the Figure of their own Fancies and sometimes from other by Respects and private Interests Whether any or which of these hath moved my Opposer I will not here determine because I know him not but leaving that to the Judgment of the impartial Reader if the Gentleman's love to his Country be such as he professeth and equal with mine I shall not doubt but after a more serious Examination of the Matter he will agree with me in the thing desired In the beginning of his Treatise he recites nineteen Obversations of mine as meanâ— whereby the Dutch have encreased their Trade and Riches And page 9. seems to approve of all them saying as I told him as also he doth page 22. That more might be added but is not so kind to his Country to let us know what they are which if he had done would have been more agreeable to his pretended Candor and as well of Use to his Country as an Evidence of his own Sufficiency it being a much easier thing to cavel at what other men have done than to present the World with any thing new and material of our own Page 10. passing over many others he quarrels at that facetious Instance of Noble-Mens wearing in former times Sattin-Doublets with Canvas backs which is the most inconsiderable instance of many yet upon the whole he concludes with me That we are much Richer now than we were before any Law for Interest was made and that we have grown Richer since the abatement of Interest from 10 to 8 per Cent and yet more Rich since it was abated from 8 to 6 per Cent which pag. 10. he confesseth and pag. 11. he implicitly confesseth and pag. 14. expresly That according to the more or less Interest any Country pays for Money the richer or poorer it is I am glad we are thus far agreed and that my Opposer is so well instructed hoping I shall with the less difficulty perswâ—de him to a perfect understanding of the Principle in Controversie wherein as yet I think it will appear he is no great Master But before I enter upon the matter I must tell the Gentleman he hath no cause to boast as to that particular Instance concerning Noble Men's former meaner Cloathing for what I thence inferred was certainly true as to the time I spoke of which was of a time within the memory of a man then living since Trade was introduced into this Kingdom which he endeavours to overthrow by an instance out of those times when Noble men kept multitudes of Retainers about 200 Years past viz. before Henry the 7th's time and before Trade was understood in England which I think is nothing to this purpose Pag. 1â— the Gentleman reciting my Answer to that Objection That if Interest be abated the Dutch will call home their Money to which I replied that if they should it would be better for us The Borrower being always a Slave to the Lender which he saith Is no more in the case of English and Dutch then in that of English and English And pag. 12. at the beginning he saith That I have discovered my design of engrossing all Trade into the Hands of a few rich Merchants who have Money enough of their own to trade with to the excluding all young men that want it In which two Assertions I appeal to all rational men whether the Gentleman be not in a very great Error as to the very nature of the Principle he discourseth For if one English-man lend to another be the Interest high or low between them two nothing is got or
lost to the Nation whereas if a Dutch man lend Money to an English-man he at length carries home both Principal and Interest which Interest be it more or less is a câ—ear loss to the Nation which is so evident that I hope my Opposer when he hath thought upon it again will not upbraid me for begging the Question because I trouble not the Reader with the particular Proof of those things which I hear no man deny and therefore conclude every man will grant For whether Snow be white is not to be disputed In his second Assertion likewise that the abatement of Interest tends to the engrossing of Trade into a few rich mens hands to the excluding of young men I appeal to the judgment of all understanding Merchants and rational men whether the Gentleman be not miserably mistaken And whether the never-failing effect of a high Interest all the World over be not to enrich a few greatly and impoverish the generality of Traders So it is in Turkey where Interest is at 20 per Cent and upwards if we may believe those honest and worthy Turkey Merchants who are now upon the Exchange and have lived long in that Country and so it was with us here when Interest was at 10 per Cent and upwards as I have already demonstrated by the instances of Sutton Gresliam Craven and Spencer so that he must be naturally blind or put out his Eyes who doth not see that the Abatement of Interest is a diffusive Principle Hence it follows that as few great and rich Merchants whose Estates are Personal except they have also great Souls can bear the discourse of abating Interest with more patience than Usurers well knowing that it must necessarily retrench their present Profits by encreasing the number of Traders which though it be a small loss to Individuals will be a vast gain to the generality of the Nation At the lower end of pag. 12. his Words are that in my instance of old Audley's observing that 100 l. at 10 per Cent would in 70 Years amount to 100000 l. he affirms I am no less mistaken than in other things Truly if I have mistook no more in other things than in that in such an untrodden Path as this I have failed much less then I could hope for to demonstrate which I have here inserted a short Table shewing that 100 l. at that rate riseth within a trifle to 200 l. in seven Years Interest upon Interest so that the usual accompt is and was formerly that Money doubles once in seven Years at 10 per Cent according to which rule 100 l. in seventy Years amounts to 102400 l. One Hundred Pounds at Ten Pounds per Cent per Annum at Interest upon Interest encreaseth thus viz.  L. S. D. AT first 100 00 00 At 3 Months it is 102 10 00 At 6 Months 105 1 03 At 9 Months 107 13 9 At 12 Months 110 07 7 At 1 Year â— 4 113 02 9 At 1 Year â— â— 115 19 4 At 1 Year â— 4 118 17 4 At 2 Years 121 16 9 At 2 Years â— 4 124 17 8 At 2 Years â— 2 128 00 1 At 2 Years ¾ 131 4 1 At 3 Years 134 9 9 At 3 Years â— 4 137 17 0 At 3 Years 1 â— 141 5 10 At 3 Years ¾ 144 16 6 At 4 Years 148 8 11 At 4 Years ¼ 152 3 1 At 4 Years ½ 155 19 2 At 4 Years ¾ 159 17 2 At 5 Years 163 17 1 At 5 Years ¼ 167 19 0 At 5 Years ½ 172 3 0 At 5 Years ¾ 176 9 1 At 6 Years 180 17 3 At 6 Years ¼ 185 7 9 At 6 Years 1 â— 190 5 0 At 6 Years ¼ 194 15 5 At 7 Years 199 12 10 Supposing One Hundred Pounds to double in seven Years at Interest upon Interest as aforesaid the encrease is viz.  L. At first 100 At 7 Years 200 At 14 Years 400 At 21 Years 800 At 28 Years 1600 At 35 Years 3200 At 42 Years 6400 At 49 Years 12800 At 56 Years 25600 At 63 Years 51200 At 70 Years 102400 Pag. 13. he saith That I make use of the abuse of Interest which no man pleads for annexing a Discourse against Interest writ in 1621. when it was at 10 per Cent endeavouring thereby to impose a Belief that the Gentleman who writ thaâ— Discourse was of my mind whereas it may be supposed the Author of that Book was contented with 8 per Cent because within four Years after it was brought down to that Rate and that otherwise he would have writ further it being probable that he might live till after four Years I answer That through the Mercies of Almighty God and for the good of this Kingdom that Patriot of his Country Old Sr Thomas Culpepper who I have since been assured was the Author of that Treatise did live above twenty Years after the writing thereof and then published a second Treatise which was lately Re-printed by his worthy Son which second Treatise is now to be had at Mr Wilkinson's over against St Dunstan's Church in Fleet-street which I would advise my Opposer to read and then I hope he will be more modest hereafter then to mis-call the most Natural and Rational Conclusions IMPOSINGS But lest he should not meet with the said Treatise I shall here insert a few Lines out of it to the present purpose viz. Old Sr Thomas speaking of the certain good Effects of the Abatement of Interest from 10 to 8 per Cent pag. 19. of his second Treatise saith This good success doth call upon us not to rest here but that we bring the use for Money to a lower rate which now I suppose will find no Opposition for all Objections which before the Statute were made against it are now answered by the Success most certainly the benefit will be much greater to the Common wealth by calling the Vse for Money down from 8 to 5 or 6 per Cent then it was from calling it down from 10 to 8 per Cent. I shall not Comment upon his Words but only declare that in truth I never heard of this Treatise nor of any other to the like effect when I write mine Pag. 13. the Gentle-man bâ—ings â—p his Battalia and like a stout Champion for the â—lie and timerous heard-of-Usurers plants his main Battery against that part which I confessed to be weakest viz. that the difficulty of this Question is Whether the lowness of Interest be the cause or the Effect of Riches And he positively denies that the lowness of Interest is the Cause affirms it to be only the Effect thereof which he endeavours to prove by four Arguments which I shall particularly answer in a due place in the mean time use my own Method to prove That the Abatement of Interest by a Law in England will be a means to improve the Riches of this Kingdom And I prove it thus 1. Whatever doth Advance the value of Land in Purchase must be
made against this Constitution is that It thwarts that most excellent order of our English Iuries Answ. 1. I answer That I hope there is no English man more in love with Iuries then my self but it is evident that the common way of Tryals doth not well reach the variety and strangeness of Merchants cases especially in relation to foreign Affairs Answ. 2. What better Jury can a Merchant hope for than twelve able and honest Merchants chose by the collective Body of the whole City and such as shall all of them stand upon their Good Behaviour to be turned out with Ignominy the next Year if they do not equal right to all men Object 2. The admitting of no Appeals from a Couâ—t-Merchant seems too arbitrary I answer While we choose our Iudges our selves for Merchants cases and may remove them our selves in my opinion they can be no more too arbitrary than too much power can be given to Referees when both parties desire an end of their Differences besides if their Power be not great the many designs of cheap speedy and short issues will be lost But if it shall please the Parliament there may be in the Act an appeal reserved to the House of Lords the Money condemned to be first paid or deposited before the Appeal be allowed CHAP. VII Concerning Naturalization THat an Act of Naturalization of Strangers would tend to the advancement of Trade and encrease of the value of the Lands of this Kingdom is now so generally owned and assented to by all degrees of men amongst us that I doubt not but a short time will produce some Act or Acts of Parliament to that purpose I have therefore thought it not impertinent to note some few Particulars which if not warily prevented may deprive us of the greatest part of the Fruit hoped for by so good a design viz. 1st The Priviledges of encorporated Cities and Towns 2dly More especially the Societies of Artificers and Trades-men belonging to some Cities and Towns Corporate such as Weavers Coopers and many others who by vertue of their Charters pretend to Priviledge and Iurisdiction not only to the utmost extent of the Liberties of their respective Cities and Towns but to the distance of ten Miles about them 3. That branch of the Statute of 5 th of Elizabeth which enacts That none shall use any manual Occupation that hath not served an Apprenticeship thereunto upon which Statute it hath been usual to indict Strangers work-men that have exercised their Callings in the out-parts of London Upon this point of Naturalization many men make a great doubt whether it be for publick good to permit the Iews to be Naturalized in common with other Strangers Those that are against their admission who for the most part are Merchants urge these Reasons 1. They say the Iews are a subtil People prying into all kind of Trades and thereby depriving the English Merchant of that Profit he would otherwise gain 2 They are a penurious People living miserably and therefore can and do afford to trade for less profit then the English to the prejudice of the English Merchant 3. They bring no Estates with them but set up with their Pens and Ink only and if after some few Years they thrive and grow rich they carry away their Riches with them to some other Country being a People that cannot mix with us which Riches being carried away is a publick loss to this Kingdom Those that are for the admission of the Iews say in answer to the aforesaid Reasons viz. 1 st The subtiller the Iews are and the more Trades they pry into while they live here the more they are like to encrease Trade and the more they do that the better it is for the Kingdom in general though the worse for the English Merchant who comparitively to the rest of the People of England is not one of a thousand 2 dly The thriftier they live the better Example to our people there being nothing in the World more conducing to enrich a Kingdom then thriftiness 3 dly It is denyed that they bring over nothing with them for many have brought hither very good Estates and hundreds more would do the like and settle here for their Lives and their Posterities after them if they had the same Freedom and Security here as they have in Holland and Italy where the grand Duke of Tuscaney and other Princes allow them not only perfect Liberty and Security but give them the priviledge of making Laws among themselves and that they would reside with us is proved from the known Principles of Nature viz. Principle 1. All men by Nature are alike as I have before demonstrated and Mr Hobbs hath truly asserted how Erroneous soever he may be in other things Princip 2. Fear is the cause of Hatred and hatred of separation from as well as evil Deeds to the Parties or Government hated when opportunity is offered This by the way shews the difference between a bare connivence at Dissenters in matters of Religion and a toleration by Law the former keeps them continually in Fear and consequently apt to Sedition and Rebellion when any probable occasion of success presents The latter disarms cunning ambitious minded men who wanting a popular discontented Party to work upon can effect little or nothing to the prejudice of the Government And this methinks discovers clearly the Cause why the Lutherans in Germany Protestants in France Greeks in Turkey and Sectaries in Holland are such quiet peaceable-minded-men while our Non-Conformists in England are said to be enclinable to Strife War and Bloodshed Take away the Cause and the Effect will cease While the Laws are in Force against men they think the Sword hangs over their Heads and are always in fear though the Execution be suspended not knowing how soon Councils or Counsellors Times or Persons may change it is only Perfect Love that casts out Fear and all men are in love with Liberty and Security It cannot be denyed that the industrious Bees have Stings though Drones have not yet Bees sting not except those that hurt them or disturb their Hives It is said the Iews cannot Intermarry with us and therefore it cannot be supposed they will reside long amongst us although they were treated never so kindly why not reside here as well as in Italy Poland or Holland they have now no Country of their own to go to and therefore that is their Country and must needs be so esteemed by them where they are best used and have the greatest Security CHAP. VIII Concerning Wool and Woollen Manufactures THat Wool is eminently the Foundation of the English Riches I have not heard denyed by any and that therefore all possible means ought to be used to keep it within our own Kingdom is generally confessed and to this purpose most of our modern Parliaments have strenuously endeavoured the contriving of severe Laws to prevent its Exportation and the last Act made it Felony to Ship out Wool