commended Tell me how the Prelates in these times obtain their Beneficeâ— G. There are two ways of creating Prelates in Germany the one is called Election and the other Postulation When the Chapter being Canonically assembled chooses one of the members of their Body to be the Head thereof or at least two thirds of the Canons give him their voices he is made Archbishop or Bishop by Election And if the same Canons think it fit to raise unto that Dignity some Prince or Prelate that is not of their Body they call that kind of proceeding Postulation Both these are lawful and the only practised ways in the Empire And it is all I had to tell you concerning the Ecclesiastical persons of Germany which may suffice you unless you desire to know whether they do homage to the Emperor P. I question not but Church-men receive their Fiefs from the Emperor and pay him homage for their Principalities but I would gladly know whether they be more strictly tyed to the Emperor or to the Pope and which side they would take in case his Holiness should make War upon the Empire G. The Holy Scripture teaches us that no man can serve two Masters and I believe the Churchmen of Germany would find the experieace of it if the Emperor and the Pope should have any quarrel or controversie For they are obliged to the Pope as Priests and Prelates and to the Emperor as Feudataries of the Empire They that prefer the Grandeur of Rome before that of Germany would forsake the Emperor and they that undervalue the fulminations of the Vatican would bear up the interest of the Empire against the Pope Now if I durst tell you my thoughts I do verily believe that of ten there would hardly be found one that would depart from the Popes interest P. I think so too and hold it for certain that Popes have brought down the authority of Soverains by the help of Churchmen G. That may well be for the bond of Religion holds men more strongly then any other duty And though wise men distinguish between the true zeal and the capricious humour of Popes yet the greatest part of Christians being perswaded that S. Peter cannot have any unjust pretension doth turn to his side without knowing at what he aims and whether it be by simplicity or malice the Priests have often brought misery upon their Countrey to bring their Princes under the Pope not considering that Soverain estates depend of none but God and that all Churchmen not excepting the Pope himself owe obedience unto their Princes P. The Doctrine of the Popes is absolutely contrary to yours The Holy Father may judge of all without being subject to the judgement of any body being the Sun of the earth and the Emperor but the Moon and therefore 6645. times bigger then he and having power to free the Subjects of another from the Oath they have taken to obey him with how much more reason may he exempt and withdraw himself from the obedience of every other Prince G. Flatterers give that power to Popes who abusing the same have oftentimes been the cause of great Rebellions But the people of this age are not so simple as those of former times who believing these fables forsook their Kings and brutishly spilt the blood of their Countreymen Christians now a dayes turn the eyes of their understanding upon the Primitive Church and see it evidently there that Popes were not alwayes so potent as they are now and indeed that they ought not to be so seeing they style themselves Lieutenants to Christ and Successors to S. Peter the first of whom did alwayes protest that his Kingdom was not of this World and the other teacheth us as well as S Paul that every soul should be subject to the Higher Powers From which words S. Bernard concludes that Popes ought to be subject to Princes P. Many things should be that are not But let us speak no more of the Pope or of his power Let us if you please see how those that preach against him obey their Princes and how Church-matters are administred amongst the Lutherans and the Calvinists in Germany G. It is most certain that the Reformation of Luther and Calvin makes Church-men subject to the Prince under whom they live It is nevertheless to be observed that Protestant Princes do not submit Ecclesiastical affairs to every Tribunal but they have each of them a Consistory where those matters are decided when they are of importance P. Have the Lutherans any Bishops to whom Priests are subject G. In Sweden and Denmark where both Kings and People received the Reformation of Luther they observe almost the same order as in the Church of Rome and persons constituted in Ecclesiastical Dignities have power to prescribe rules to others In Germany where the Lutheran Bishops are as absolute as the Secular Princes they have the right of commanding the Priests of their Diocese to do their duty The other Princes having in their Dominions Deacons Priests particular and general Superintendents do also oblige the inferior Clergy to give an account of their doctrine and lives to their Superiors and to receive their correction These Superintendents visit their Diocese once a year and make an exact enquiry into the Doctrine and mannen of all the Pastors under their inspection P. And have these Superintendents also any Superior G. G. No man is exempted from an obligation to obey the Laws and the greatest of the Clergy have a Superior who can and ought to chastise them when they commit any scandalous offence The complaints that are made against the lowest Priests being come to the Superintendents ear he makes inquisition thereinto and reports it to the Consistory where the ancientest or the most worthy Prelate of the Principality doth usually preside and that Consistory fortified by the power and authority of the Prince ordains what is just and reasonable imprisoning or degrading the offender when they think it necessary Briefly those Consistories are alwayes vigilant for the maintenance of Religion the enlargement of the Kingdom of Christ the peace of Consciences the good of the People and the upholding of Ecclesiastical Discipline P. Do all the Evangelique Lords so they term Lutherans observe the same order in their Territories G. When the errors that had slipt into the Church obliged Princes to reform within their own Dominions every one made choice of one or more personages of great piety and eminent learning by whose advice he framed and set up that order which he would have to take place in the Churches of his Countrey In the Dutchy of Wirtemberg where the Reformation was introduced by Duke Christopher a Prince of incomparable wisdom the Principality is divided into six Dioceses and for every one of them there is a Prelate called Superintendent General who is inspector thereof Those six Prelates have many special and particular ones under them and over them the Provost of Montgarat who presides in the
add further that persons of low degree are elected who become insolent upon it and leave no stone unturned to make the Crown Hereditary to their Family and which is still worse sometimes the Electors being at variance instead of one Head set many over the Common-wealth But all these reasons are good and allowable in those States where Succession hath had place for many ages The Germans had rather have their Emperors by choice and to prevent those inconveniences they many times elect a Successor to the Empire while the Emperor is living And though that course be not taken yet the Empire is not in danger to fall into Anarchy or any disorder seeing the Electors Palatine and of Saxony are Vicars of the Emperor and Administrators of the Empire during the Interregnum And so the ship is never without a Pilot in Germany where to abate the desire which the Emperors may have to agrandize their children by weakning the Monarchy they usually make choice of the nearest of Kin to the Reigning Prince and they do not transfer the Crown to another House but when they find never a Head worthy of it in that Family that hath it in possession This way of continuing the Imperial Dignity in one House doth also hinder the inconvenience of advancing men of low degree to the Throne and of giving two Heads at a time to one single Common-wealth For which cause I think it not fit to innovate any thing in a State and that every Nation should persevere in their ancient customes forasmuch as all changes in a State are dangerous P. God be thanked we do not see so many murders and seditions in Germany during the Interregnum as there are at Rome but there hath been no means found out to prevent alienating the demesns of the Empire The Emperor hath almost nothing left in Italy and the best Cities of Germany being enfranchiz'd the sinew of the State hath lost much of its strength which could never have been if the Empire had alwayes been Successive G. There is nothing complete and entire in this World and it is as hard to find a perfect form of Government as a Common-wealth a King an Orator a Captain a Courtier an Ambassador with the qualities which Plato Xenophon Cicero Onosander Castalio and Tasso Fancy and desire When a Kingdom is Successive the people is often forced to obey a child or rather those who abusing his authority do oppress and exhaust his Subjects during his Minority When it is Elective they are divers times put to no small trouble to find out a good King and when they think they have chosen an Augustus a Trajan or an Antonine it proves too often that they have pitched upon a William a Henry VII or a Wenceslaus We must look for perfection in Heaven and not think to meet with it here below P. Seeing we are in Germany where Election hath place we ought to prefer it before Succession and to speak truth considering the State of the Empire at present it seems to be preferable But of what age should a Prince be to be capable of being placed upon the Imperial Throne G. It were to be wished that he were one who had beforehand given some proofs of his vertue and made his name glorious by his Military actions nevertheless though by the Law no man can be raised to eminent honours before the age of 25. years yet the Electors do not alwayes tie themselves strictly to those rules For they chose Otho III. in his infancy Henry III. at twelve Henry IV. at eight Frederick II. and William at twenty Wenceslaus at fifteen and Charles V. at nineteen years of age P. I would willingly know what difference there is between the Emperor and the King of the Romans G. You will meet with some Writers who mean the Emperor when they are speaking of the King of the Romans and yet they are distinct persons For no man can be Vicar to himself and the King of the Romans is the Emperors perpetual Vicar when the Emperor is absent or taken up with other affairs he administers the Empire and the Emperor being dead he succeeds without dispute The King of the Romans bears for his Arms the Eagle with one head the Emperor with two he is styled Augustus and the Emperor semper Augustus The Emperor writing to him useth the term of Liebten in Dutch which signifies Dilection but he writing or speaking to the Emperor gives him that of Majesty To conclude he acknowledges the Emperor for his Superior and though in his absence he exercise the same power the Emperor did it is but by concession for he hath no authority of his own within the Empire so long as the Emperor is living And therefore if he take place of other Kings it is only because he exerciseth the same Jurisdiction which the Emperor doth P. Is the King of the Romans the only Vicar of the Empire G. Heretofore there were 3. Deputies in the East as many in the West one in Africa and another in Spain At present there are but two for all to wit the Electors of the Rhine and of Saxony whose dignity is derived from the office of great Steward which they had under the Emperors of Charlemagne's Race By virtue of that dignity when the Emperor dyes and before a Successor be chosen the first governs the Rhine Franconia Swaben and Bavaria as far as the Alpes the other all that Countrey where the Saxon Laws are observed But if there be a King of the Romans that right ceases because he is Emperor that very moment wherein the other deceaseth So that it may be said when there is a King of the Romans he is the only Vicar of the Empire and when there is not one the Electors of the Rhine and Saxony alone are the Vicars P. We have hitherto spoken sufficiently of the Emperor of his Vicars and of the Electors Nevertheless before we proceed any further I would know whether the Emperor take the name of Cesar before his Coronation and how he is served when he eats in State G. Immediately after the Emperor is chosen he takes the name of Emperor of Cesar and of Augustus and if he pleases gives priviledges and does all other acts of Soverainty Afterwards when he will display the Splendor of his Majesty he dines in Ceremony and then the Ecclesiastical Electors say Grace and hold the Seals the Elector of Brandenburg gives him water to wash the Saxon executes the Office of Marshal the Palsgrave presents him the first dish of meat and the King of Bohemia the first glass of Wine But he wears not the Crown upon his head unless he will himself And if any Elector be absent his Deputy performs his Office and not his Ambassador now the Lieutenants or Deputies of the Electors are the Lords and Counts of Limbourg of Walpourg of Papentheim and of Hohenzolleren for the four ancient Seculars I do not know who is the Count Palatines
have voice and seat in the Assemblies G. All the Estates of the Empire who are the Electors the Princes the Prelates the Counts the Barons and the Imperial Cities And besides the place and voice they have in general and particular Assemblies they have also a certain right of Regality and the priviledge of the Austregues that is a right not to be convented or brought before any but peculiar Judges P. I thought that the Emperor alone had the right of Regality that this right and Majesty were one and the same thing and that but few Counts and Barons had place and voice in the Assemblies G. By the Counts and Barons which I told you had seat and suffrage in the Assemblies you should understand those that are Estates of the Empire and abstract all others even those Lords to whom the Emperor gives the title of Prince in his Hereditary Countreys who are in no small number the abuse being grown to that height that few or none are content with the title of Gentleman As to the other part of your supposition you should take notice that Soverainty and Regalities are different things Soverainty is that which essentially constitute the Emperor that is which makes him to be Emperor and Regalities are the Adjuncts of Soverainty and the Rights which flow from it as rivulets from their spring P. I beseech you explain your self a little more G. For the better understanding of what I have even now said you must note that the word Regality is diversly taken to wit 1. for great Lordships held in Fee of the Crown 2. for Churches extraordinarily rich 3. for the right of giving great Benefices 4. for the Royal Ensigns which are carried before Kings and put upon their heads and into their hands and 5. for the Rights which have been given to Emperors for marks of a Soverain eminence Regalities may be also distinguished into the greater and the lesser The greater are Regalities of Dignity which relate to the Emperor person the lesser are Regalities of Vtility which regard his Treasure The great one are incommunicable the lesser are communicable and communicated to Princes Lords and Cities to one more to another less according to the good pleasure of the Emperors P. I do not yet fully understand which be the Regalities of Dignity I pray speak a little more at large of them G. The Regalities of Dignity are the immense power which the Emperor hath to give the title of King Elector Archduke Duke c. to make Laws to administer Justice and other such like things P. I think the Emperor hath communicated the right of administring Justice unto the Imperial Chambers of his Court and of Spire G. That is true but the power of the Chambers is no argument why the Emperor alone should not be said to have the Soverain Right of administring Justice For the Judge of those Chambers bears the Imperial Sceptre to show that he exercises the Emperors jurisdiction there all judgements are pronounced there in his Majesties name and sealed with his Arms Which makes it clear that all is done by his authority and in his name P. Was Justice always administred by the Soverain Chambers which his Majesty hath established the one in his Court and the other at Spire G. The Chamber of Justice or Parliament of the Empire was ambulatory till the time of Maximilian I. who taking pity of the parties that were necessitated to follow the Court and seek for Justice there at great expenses at the request of Berchtold Count of Henneberg who was then Elector of Mentz established a Sedentary Chamber at Wormes in the year 1495. from whence it was soon after removed to Spire but cannot be withdrawn from that place without the consent of all the Estates P. Doubtless the Emperor hath given an extraordinary jurisdiction to that Chamber for I have heard say that it hath concurrence of jurisdiction with his Majesty G. The Chamber of Spire can have no concurrent jurisdiction with the Emperor unless it be that his Majesty may concur with himself for the jurisdiction of the Chamber is nothing else but the Emperors jurisdiction Besides the Emperor hath not established the Chamber to concur with him but to administer Justice in his name For in transferring thither all the jurisdiction universally for so much as concerns Civil causes he hath ordered that nothing shall be dispatched but in his name and under his Seal Whereby it is easie to judge that there is a dependence and not a concurrence of the Chamber of Spire with the Emperor who also causeth the Assessors to be punished when they transgress and swerve from their duty P. Seeing the Emperor hath transmitted all his jurisdiction unto that Chamber certainly it passeth judgement upon all things without appeal G. Except Ecclesiastical and Spiritual matters as the crimes of Heresie Adultery and other such like the cognizance whereof belongs to the Church that Chamber Judges finally and absolutely of every thing So that an appeal cannot be made unto the Emperor and much less to the Pope even in a cause of a pious nature And there is a Decree to be seen of the 20. February 1512. whereby one that appealed to the Pope was fined a hundred Marks of Gold But this Chamber takes no knowledge in the first instance but of the causes which concern some Immediate person that is immediately depending upon the Emperor P. Are all Immediate persons Estates of the Empire G. The Gentlemen of Swaben Franconia the Rhine and the lower Alsatia are not Estates of the Empire though they be immediately subject to the Emperor P. Let us begin to speak of the Estates of the Empire and tell me if you please what was the original of the House of Austria how long it hath worn the Imperial Crown into how many branches it is divided by what means it became so potent and what are its priviledges G. You ask too many things at once yet I will answer them But that we may avoid confusion I will speak severally of that which you have proposed conjunctly And as to your first question I say that flatterers think they can never raise the beginning of this Most August House high enough unless they fetch it from the Trojan horse and tracing the Fables of the old Romans invent a fine Genealogy from near 500. years before the birth of Jesus Christ Others would have it to descend from Charlemagne in a direct masculine line The most common opinion is that the Counts of Habspourg who wear the Imperial Crown at this present are a branch of the Dukes of Zeringuen from whom also the Marquisses of Baden are descended and the Dukes of Teck whose lands are passed by marriage into the House of Wirtemberg P. That which you say is not out of controversie for a modern Author affirms confidently that the Archdukes of Austria and the Kings of France come both out of one and the same stock But because we desire
and those Lords prefer it before all other titles P. I do not think there be many Landgraves G. There is none but the House of Hesse that takes its chief title from thence The Landgraveship of Alsatia was transferred to the King of France by the Treaty of Munster that of Leuchtemberg to the House of Bavaria by the marriage of Duke Albert with Matildis heiress of that Principality that of Thuringia belongs to the Duke of Saxony that of Sausemberg to the Marquiss of Baden and that of Nollembourg to the House of Austria Besides these Landgraveships the Counts of Furstemberg take upon them the quality of Landgraves of Stillinguen and Bath and those of Sultz are styled Landgraves of Klegeu But these two last prefer the title of Count before that of Landgrave from whence you may judge that the Landgraves are not all Princes P. I conceive there is no Landgrave nor Burgrave but in Germany and strangers know not those names in their own Countreys G. Certainly there is no Landgraveship out of Germany but some think that Burgrave is that which Forainers call Viscounts or Viguiers I refer my self to the truth in this case and shall only tell you that they who fansie and take delight in Quaternions say there be four of them in Germany to wit of Nuremberg Magdebourg Strombourg and Reinek The two last whereof are no longer acknowledged for such For Strombourg is a Castle situate between Simeren and Creisenach which belongs to the Elector Palatine and Reinek is fallen to the inheritance of the Counts of Issembourg The Elector of Brandenbourg doth still bear the title of Burgrave of Nuremberg though Frederick V. of that name who was made Elector on St. Johns Eve A. D. 1417. sold unto the Burgers of Nuremberg the Castle which he had in that City and some Villages and Forests with the right of the Schultets or Aldermen for 240000. Florins reserving to himself the name and some rights That of Magdebourg belongs to the Elector of Saxony who bears the title thereof and the Arms which are a Demy-Eagle Argent in a Field Gules There are some other Burgraves as those of Kirchemberg Donau and Fridberg but they are not equal to the former P. Are the Archdukes ancient G. That name was unknown before the time of Frederick III. and I think Maximiliaâ— of Austria was the first that bore it And all the world affords no Archdukes but those of Austria As to the cause for which those Princes took up that glorious title I judge that the Emperors of that House seeing their Family arrived to the highest degree of power and dignity were desirous that it should have a peculiar name to it self and for that reason they would never communicate it to any one else though they have been entreated so to do very often and very earnestly Now the word signifies Prince or chief of Dukes as that of Archbishop signifies Prince or chief of Bishops But I do not see that the Archdukes have any Suffragan Dukes as the Archbishops who have Bishops under them P. I do not believe that the Archdukes pretend to have any Dukes their Suffragans but only to shew by that title that there is as much difference between them and other Dukes as there is between an Archbishop and a Bishop Tell me something of the Dukes G. The title of Duke is very ancient but it hath not alwayes been so considerable as it is now The Romans honoured their chief Officers of war with that name because they led on the souldiers to the battel After that and in process of time the state of affairs obliging the Emperors to have Officers of quality and long experience in war to guard the Frontier Provinces they sent some of their Dukes thither P. The Emperors did not appoint Dukes only for the Government of Frontier provinces seeing those that ly in the midst of the Empire are honoured also with the title of Dukedom G. The first Governor that bore the quality of Duke was he of the Marches of Rhetia a Countrey betwixt Germany and Italy which at this time we call the Grisons To that Province the Emperors sent a Duke to withstand the Germans who oftentimes endeavoured to make irruptions into Italy through that passage since which several Governors as well of other Provinces in the Empire as those on the Borders have had the same honour because it was thought necessary to send garrisons into those parts to keep the People in obedience and also by that means to provide an honourable entertainment for those Lords that had served well in the wars But as nothing is enough for ambition those Governors in the end made themselves masters of the Provinces which they had in charge And so the Dukes grew great by the diminution and enfeebling of their Head as the Marquisses Landgraves Burgraves and Counts in like manner did The word Duke is borrowed from the Latin Ducere as Hertzog in Dutch from words that signify a Conductor of an Army P. Are all Dukes of the same condition G. There is not one in Germany but is a prince and allied to Kings those of other Countreys are not so And whether you consider their antiquity or cast your eye upon their estates Alliances and manner of living they ought certainly to be preferred before those of Spain France and England and to be ranked equally with the greatest of Italy P. I know that in France the ancient Dukedoms have been united to the Crown that in Spain the proud Morisco humour gave the title of a Kingdom to the lands that are not worth a good County and that in England there is never an ancient Duke But before we enter upon a particular consideration of the Counts of the Empire I pray tell me whether the Dukes were alwayes greater and more illustrious then the Counts C We have seen already that the ancients called them Duces that led on souldiers to the battel and Comites those that were taken out of the Emperors Court to administer Justice to the Subjects of the Empire A little after the nature of those employments were altered and the Dukes became Generals of Armies or Governors of Provinces and the Counts chief Justices in the Cities and Provinces of the Empire And both of them made themselves Masters of the lands whereof they were Judges or Governors All those Lords assisted the Emperor in the beginning some at the Councel-board and others in the field all of them performing useful and beneficial service to the State Nay I believe without regarding the title either of Duke or Count the Emperors employed those Lords indifferently in the Palace or in the Armies so that it is hard to judge whether title was the more honourable Yet it is to be observed that there were some Counts by Office and others by Dignity that the former sort were raised to places of authority without regard had to their birth and the others were equal or very little