whom beliâ—â—e doth appertaine and not I. Soule It is true that I ought to beleue neuer the lesse the principall cause that maketh that I doe not is thy selfe Iust Oh how so sée how thou woldest cast the blame vpon an other Soule Thou knowest howe I can haue no knowledge whiles I am vnited with thée but by the meanes of thy senses the which knowing nothing but sensible thyngs doe force me thorow the great vnion that is betwene thée and me to goe by that path which thou shewest me that is by the things of the world Iust These he but wordes for thou art one thy selfe and as thou sayst the principal why then dâ—st thou not make me folow thée and not thou follow me if I goe a wrong way Soule I am bound within thée and so cloâ—ged of thy earthly nature that I lose the greater parte of 〈◊〉 strength and â—a 〈…〉 lifte vp my selfe to heauen as the perfection of my nature doth require Besides this the reasons with the which I shoulde make thée assured of the light of faith haue not so great forcâ— â–ª as haue the knowledge of sense which thou â—euest me But beleue me Iust that death doth not greue hym that deleueth Iust This might as well be of him that bâ—leueth not forâ—â— might thynke that when he dieth as his pleasures shall 〈◊〉 so shal his paynes ende also of the which I thinke there is no lesse number in the worlde than of the pleasures as thou didst say Soule And who is he that thinketh there is nothing in the other world Iust Oh oh there is happâ—ly one or two I would I had so many 〈…〉 ducates as I haue known do know Soule Oh it had ben aswell said so many vertues hadde I but I sée Iust that thou 〈◊〉 an earthly piece and crauest nothing but earthly things Iust Oh if there were nobody else howe many Popes haue there bene â–ª Soule What Popes how like a 〈◊〉 speakest thou Iust I speake of them thaâ— haâ—â— interpreted the booke of Lazarus so wyâ—kedly as they haue sayd that in the other worlde is nothing Soule What booke of Lazarus speakest thou of â–ª Iust Oh as though y â— knewst it not Soule No not I. Iust Well thou shalt know it now They say y t Lazarus being asked after his rising of many of his friends what was in the other world he aunswered he wold leaue it in writing Now eyther that he forgot it or that it is not lawfull to speake of things of the other world of one y â— had ben ther as S. Paule saide when he died lefte a booke sealed with order it should be giuen to the Pope in the which nothing was written wherfore the Pope that no slauÌ„der shold be giueÌ„ to the world which with great desire did loke to hear what was ther did hide it saying he might not open it to any but to his successor so the Bishops haue done from one to an other till this day Now they that haue expounded the matter godly affirming the cause to be that it is not lawful for men to know the things there farther theÌ„ hath ben declared to vs by the scripture be they y â— haue ben good men the other that haue thus interpreted y â— mater that the meaning is that in the other world is nothing be they whom thou hast séene which when they haue come to their Papacie haue done that they thought might serue their turne Soule A Iust these be tales deuised of such as thou art but I wil say this vnto thée that if thou considerest well thou neuer foundst any that can beleue this that there is nothing absolutely and without al respect for they should haue to much contentacion and pleasure in this world they might fulfil all theyr desires without any trouble of â—â—nde which were no small thinge and they might also say as that honest woman which being taken in the sacke of Genoua saide God be thanked that I shal once haue my luste without any remorse of conscience Iust I thinke thou sayest truth for I haue hearde there was once one in Florence that was called M. Iohn de Caui a Phisitian Philosopher most famous the which whilest he liued shewed him selfe alwayes to be reâ—olued that the Soule was mortall neuerthelesse when he was a dying he saide by and by I shall be out of a great force And diuers other whoÌ„ I haue knowne to be of that opinion in their life haue ben otherwise at their death Wherof one Naum Grosso and Lance Goldesmith liuing pleasantly and beleuing in apparaunce not muche aboue the house top yet at their deathe the one called for a crucifixe but woulde haue it giuen him by the hand of Donatello that was dead The other sayd I recommend my self to him in the other worlde that can do moste be it God or the deuil and he that most may let him most catche Soule Let these things go for they haue more of brutishnesse than of reason and if thou remeÌ„brest thou shalt finde that in thy time there haue ben halfe a score more whom thou hast knowne to haue beÌ„ in their life scarce religious haue séemed to beleue too litle and yet haue liued morally and as behoueth to reasonable creatures which at the point of death not beyng able neuer to quench a certaine prick of reason and a certain desire and acknowledgyng of Immortalitie although it were confused and iudging it naturall and knowyng that naturall desires be not vain nor of things that can not be hadde they haue bene reduced to God and haue confessed their erroure and so recommended them selues to God as he hath giuen them the lyghte of Fayth whereby they haue dyed Christian men But lette vs leaue thys reasonyng and goe lyghte thy candle bycause it shal be tyme by and by that thou go to thy worke Iust Thou haste a thousande reasons and I stayde to reason wyth thée What ayleth thys tynder that it wyll not take nowe thankes bée to GOD it is lyght Oh oh good Lorde What a goodly thyng what a goodly Creature Oh my Soule blessed bée thou for thou art a faire thyng Soule Sitte sytte Iust least thou fall for thou art olde Iust I can not holde my selfe but I muste néedes embrace thée wyllyng thée so well and neuer hauyng seene thee before But alas what is the matter I féele nothyng yet I sée thée Am I not well in my wyttes Soule Iust thou makest profession of a Dautist and thou doest not remember it when thou shouldest Doest not thou remember that the lyke also happened vnto Daut hymselfe when that he woulde haue embraced Casella And the cause is this that we be as shadowes and do only shewe oure selues to the sighte but wée can not bée proprely touched bycause that we be withoute bodyes And this body which I haue made me being of the aire is also vntouchable
beginning to open to me the way of knowledge of the truth which as I haue said vnto thée is my chiefe ende Iust Be shorte and tell me what I must haue done Soule Thou must I say haue giuen thy selfe to the study of science diuiding thy time so as thou shouldest not haue let thy worke Iust And wouldest thou that I shold both haue plaide the Couper and the Student Soule Yea would I. Iust And what would the people haue said Soule What say they at Bolonia of one Iames Fellay ther which kepes his occupation yet hath profited in learning that he may compare with many that haue done nothing else but study and in Venice an Hosier that died of late and was very wel learned Iust What time should I haue had to it Soule So much as should haue suffised which thou didst spende somtime in play or in going abroad babling by the way for dost thou thinke that they that study do study euer if thou lokest wel thou shalt sée them most part of the day walking abroad remember of Mathew Palmer thy neighbour that euer was a Potecarie and yet got so much learning as the Florentines sente him embassadour to the king of Naples the which dignitie was giuen him only to shew a thing so rare y â— a man of so base condition shold haue so noble conceits as to giue himself to study not leauing his exercise and I remember I haue heard that the king said What Phisitians be at Florence when their Apothecaries be so singular men Iust I knowe thou sayst true and I hadde inclination inough but two things caused me that I neuer had no minde that way the one was the base arte that I was of the other the payn that I haue heard of many that is in study Soule Thou art euen fallen wher I would alleaging this second cause for as for the first if these examples of our time which I haue named doe not suffise thée let the auncient examples of those olde Philosophers suffise which vsed all some occupation and specially of Hippias which did shape and sowe his clothes did make trappers for horses and many other things but to the other I answere thée that in the world is not so easy a thing as to study and to get learning Iust Thou telst me a thing which I thought the contrary Soule Heare me and I will proue it Euery thyng holpen of his proper nature getteth his perfectioÌ„ without any paine and perfection is the knowledge of veritie wherefore a man in getting it should haue no payne at all Of this coÌ„clusion the propositions being true I know that thou hast no doubt at all but bicause thou mightest doubt of theÌ„ I wil proue them and first the maner Tell me thinkest thou the earth endureth any paine in going to the centre Iust I thinkeÌ„ not Soule And doth y â— fire take any pain to mount to his Sphere Iust Lesse Soule And doe the plants take any pain to be nourished to be augmented and to bring forth their séede and the beasts to â—oaâ—e and gender like to them selues Iust No for I sée euery one doth these operations if he be not letted Soule Then thou knowest that nothing dureth any paine to get his perfection bicause the earth is onely perfect when she is in hir Centre and the fire when he is in his Sphere wher he hath no contrariety and the trées wheÌ„ they become to their termes brought forth their fruits the beasts wheÌ„ they haue gendred like to theÌ„selues to maintain their kinde which they can not do in theÌ„selues singular bycause so doing they grow more like their first mouer Now I haue only to proue thée y â— them and perfection of man is to vnderstand but I knowe that the desyre of knowledge the which thou séest to be in euery man doth assure thée of it Iust Oh I wold not haue ben dead yesterday for nothing in the world for thou haste opened mine eyes so well that I sée now that I neuer sawe afore in thre score yeares and more Soule I will saay more vnto thée it were more easy for Iust to vnderstande a worke of Aristotle than to make a Pitcher or a payre of Soccles for a Frier Iust Nowe thou speakest of a great matter Soule I speake as it is and heare the reason What pleasure hast thou in making a paire of patens or a vessell or such like Iust I haue pleasure bicause I sée I gaine therby and so prouide for my neede that riseth euery day Soule Let vs leaue gaine for that also cometh of study but what other pleasure hast thou Iust None surely Soule And I lesse rather I haue an extreame passion knowing as I haue told thée and finding my selfe occupied in such things vile Iust Then what is the cause séeing it is as I see that so fewe men be giuen to study and chiefly of them that might and wante not the way to doe it Soule Of their euill bringing vp gouernement of their fathers and of their euil way of life which is now in the world and also in the feare whych they make that be counted lerned shewing that study is the hardest thyng that a man can doe Iust Thou sayst truth for I haue hapt many times to heare them say so they play as phisitians which alwais makes the diseases of their parents to be greuous and daungerous to shewe that if they recouer them they haue done a great cure Soule Ah Iust would God that this occasion only moued them to do so but they be moued of an other worse principle Iust What is it tell me Soule I must haue more time and now it is broade day to morow if thou will reason as thou hast done this mornyng I will tell thée that and other things Iust With a good will and I pray thée too Soule Well I will tarrie till thou callest me for I will no more wake thée to grieue thée as thou werte this morning Iust So will I doe The .iiij. Reasoning IVST SOVLE Haue slepte euill thys nyght God I what would it meane yet I fynde no euill at all Some other wil say that these be the things which the infirmitie that all men couereth I meane Age bringeth to slepe euill and watche worse but it shal be better for mée since I am entred into this Fansie to talke with my Soule with whome I haue had suche pleasure these thrée rymes that wee haue talked together that euery houre seemeth a thousande yeare to renue the same yet may it be a Dreame wherof I stand halfe in doubt for I neuer heard that any such thing hath chaunced to any other before this time and thoughe it séemeth that Dauid in hys Psalmes sometime talketh with hir as in the begynning of the Seruice where he asketh hir why she is so melancolie and troubled yet could I neuer learne that she made hym any answere
sometime no is called most happy and the like be those intelligences that serues him bicause they be neuer letted of any thing and may alwayes beholde God wherby they be reputed more happye and blessed than we which althoughe we may well sometime taste by contemplation parte of him we can not stand long in so happy estate bicause we be hindred of many diuers things wherof that parte which is in vs that vnderstandeth bicause it vnderstandeth not alwayes but sometime yea and sometime no is called intellect by name of a power and they bicause they vnderstand euer are called intelligences by name of operation and of acte Iust These thy reasons be very good but they haue not yet persuaded me that sléepe is not good And when I remember the great pleasure that I haue in sléeping one sléepe of will as when I am weary which thing chaunced to me oftener when I was a yong man than it doeth now I can not but be sory of olde age that hath taken it from me in suche sort that mine may for the most parte rather be called a slumbring than a sléeping Soule Ah hast thou séene that of thy selfe thou haste confest that sléepe is not good Iust Oh in what manner thou hast vnderstanded me cleane contrarie Soule Rather haue I vnderstanded thée well Iust How Soule Bicause those things that be not good of their proper nature but only for respect of other be not called good absolutely but by chaunce and respect and to them onely that haue néede among the which is sléepe the which being as thou hast said a restoring of trauailes and of the paines of creatures is only good to them and yet not euer but when they haue néede And if it séeme it bringeth them some delight it is in respect of this wearinesse which were muche better not to haue as those intelligences whereof I spake afore to whome it were a greate impediment and annoyance bicause they are neuer weary for it shoulde diminishe their felicitie at leaste so muche time as they were occupied of it But that thou sholdst be more cleare of this tel me is eating and drinking to be put among good things Iust Who doubteth of that being a thing so good and so desired to liue and that without thē nothing can be maintayned aliue Soule Then what is the cause thou doest not eate and drinke alwayes Iust Now heare a goodly matter that thou hast spoken bicause when I haue taken of them as much as my néede requireth I haue no desire and hauyng no desire I haue no delight Wherfore to eate or drinke more should as much loth me as afore it did delight me Soule Then sée that to eate to drink to sléepe and like things be good only to supply a want of them that haue néede and the wante of a thing necessary to the being or the wel being of an other is neuer good and it were much better not to haue néede Wherof thou mayst cléerely knowe that if olde age had not taken away thy sleepe causing thée to haue lesse néede of sleepe than thou wert wont thou hadst wrongfully complayned of hir as thou doest also lamenting of time yeares which thou saist hath brought thée to this state foolish vnkind that thou art Iust O why may I not reasonably complaine me of time it onely being y ◠which hath made me so to grow olde Soule First bicause olde age is not worse in it selfe than the other be and furder bicause it is not time that cōsumeth and maketh things olde Iust Neuer tel me that y ◠it is better to be olde than yong for certainly if I had .xxv. yeares lesse I would thinke my selfe happy Soule If thou hadst .xxx. lesse thou sholdst be but Iust the Couper as thou art now and perhaps shouldest be in an age much more perillous and ful of trauaile than this is that thou art in now But I will not speake of this for I will make thée know it manifestly when I list I◠I doe not shew thée first how false and foolish thy opinion is in complayning of time more that thou art olde being a naturall thing to be olde And no man ought to lament of those things that nature brings Iust Say what thou wilt for seing I cā not sléepe it shal grieue me lesse to looke for day and shall reioyse me of that good that thou sayst little sleping bringeth Soule Thou doest Iust as the most part of men the which not seing manifestly the cause which consumeth wasteth things when they sée any present they doe attribute it to the time Wherof if they sée a man wax olde or forget that he knew they say it comes of time likewise when they sée an house fall yet whā they sée it builded they impute it to the workeman When they sée a man grow and come to perfect stature they attribute it to nature And so whē they sée he learnes they say his maister hath taught him Iust What meanest thou by this Soule Let me firste tell thée what Time is then thou shalt sée Time Iust as I haue often heard is nothing but a measure by the which all motions be measured which thinges corporall doe euen as thou doest with thy Brace wherwith thou measurest al things in thy shoppe and as that in it selfe and properly is a péece of woodde and intencionally in mannes minde by consideration and as it serueth for measure of things it is a measure so Time in it selfe really is the motion of heauen and as it serues for the measure of other motions it is called Time Iust I vnderstande thée and not vnderstande thée and I would haue thée declare it better Soule Heare me and that thou mayst the better vnderstand thou must know that a thing whych must all be brought vnder a determyned quantitie thou must sée it so neyther more nor lesse in thy imagination but with one of the very selfe same sorte which thyng thou prouest euery hour in thy selfe for whē thou wilt compt the patens in thy shop bicause they be things diuided and seperated thou must doe it with numbers which be also deuided seperated And when thou wylte measure an Axiltrée thou must take a yarde that is ioyned and continued as that is Iust This is most true Soule Wherefore when men wyll measure motions whych they sée continually in these things generable and corruptible it was of necessitie to do it otherwise And bicause in al measures this condition of necessitie is soughte by reason they mighte be inuariable and neuer chaunge otherwyse thyngs coulde not be measured by them for if thy yard should sometime diminish and sometime increase thou couldest neuer measure any thing rightly with it men not findyng any motion among these natural things that wēt alwais equally not varying they wente to them of heauen and not finding among them any so righte as that whych the starry Sphere maketh called
notwithstāding in y e most part of men y t thou sholdest not thinke thou art alone therfore haue not I good cause to cōplain But now I wil not tell thée euery thing for it is day I will haue thée go to prouide for thy necessaries for else I should want my selfe to morowe as thou sayedst I will returne into my selfe as I doe nowe and will tell thée at large whether I haue cause to lament of thée or no. Iust Oh wilt thou depart frō me Soule Departe no for then as I tolde thée thy death should folow Iust I had feare of that and therefore did I aske thée Soule I will vnite my selfe againe with thée til to morow in y e morning Iust Wel but my soul I wold y ◠to morow whē y u comst again to me we do not as we haue don this morning Soule Why Iust I woulde if it were possible that we should beholde one an others face For in this sort me thinke I am half mocked and I haue douted till a litle while since lest thou haddest talked in mine eare by a wile as I haue sene one doe with a dead mans head which had bored an hole in a plank at the foot of a deske vpon y ◠which stode y e dead hed by which a trunk did passe into y e mouth of the head y ◠euery mā thought it had ben a spirit of y e which thing I stand yet in dout of thée And finally I wold haue thée certainly assure me whether thou art my Soule or no as thou sayest Soule Very wel I am contēt I wil deliuer thée of this dout by by ▪ heare and mark well what I say vnto thée and I will speke it softly that no mā heare it if any be by for it is a secret which none other knoweth but Iust the Couper which is thou and I. Iust I am sure for this I know that none other person but my selfe knoweth therfore since thou knowest it y u art also I I haue no more doubt Therfore y t we may to morow reson more effectually I would y ◠one of vs might sée an other for then it séemeth a man speaketh more the truth than thus without seing together Soule It is impossible y t thou sholdst sée me as I am bicause I am without a body I haue neither figure nor color for y ◠figure y e quātitie be only in bodies color can not stād but in the vpper part of the same wherby I am inuisible but I might well take a body and so might I shewe me to thée Iust And howe Soule Thou professest a scholer of Daut haste thou not red it in his purgatorie I coulde with my vertue informatiue make me a body of aire giuing it thicknesse and after colour euen as the Sunne makes the Air◠grosse vaporous wherof comes the raine bow The whiche waye the angels holde and other spirites when they will shewe themselues to men Iust Thou wilte make me beleue some straunge thing then Soule What straunge thing hast thou not reddde in the Gospell that Christ when he appered to his disciples after his resurrection that they should not beleue he had one of these bodies he sayd touche me for spirits haue no bones Iust Then let vs do so but sée with al that thou partest not from me nor go frō my body for I wold not die yet Soule Well I will finde the way not to part at all Iust And howe for I will vnderstande that and not lette this thing passe for it is of too great a waight Soule I wil seperate my selfe wyth my intellectiue parte and with onely fantasie without the which I coulde not vnderstande leauing in thée all my other powers that is vegetatiue by the which thou lyuest and sensitiue by the which thou féelest and discourse by memory that thou might reason by the helpe 〈◊〉 things which thou knowest and demaunde me what thou wilte Iust And by this meane shall I not dye Soule No I say Iust Very well remember then I am out of perill and I will not sée thée before Soule Doubt not I say and lose no more time but rise and goe to thy businesse ▪ for the sunne is now risen Iust Well well tomorow we méete agayne The .ij. Reasoning SOVLE IVST SInce thou sléepest no more aryse make thée ready and light a candle and in the meane time I wil forme my selfe a body of this aire about euen as I said vnto thée yesterday that thou mayst sée me and we at our ease talke together Iust Oh my Soule with a good wil but heare me I praye thée remember that I saide vnto thée Soule What Iust That thou makest no separation from me wherby my death might ensue Soule What nedest thou to replie so oft haue I not saide vnto thée that I will leaue in thée all mine other powers but onely intellect and imagination which is it that makes you vnderstande and not it that makes you lyue for that is the power called vegetatiue the whych you haue common wyth trées Iust If I beare no peril of death I am content and if I do not agree vnto it blame me for beastes lyue and vnderstand not Soule Ah foole dost thou esteme life so much that thou woldst rather choose to liue fiftie yeres without vnderstanding as a beast than tenne with intelligence as a man Iust For my parte I had so doest thou thinke it a prety sporte to die I tell thée I neuer sawe any yet come againe and of Lazarus that was raysed they say he was neuer séene laugh afterward and that was bicause he was afraide to die once againe so fearefull was the first vnto him Soule This thou speakest bicause that part which is voyd of reason is it that nowe speaketh in thée but if I were with thée thou wouldest not say so Iust I knowe not that and as for me since I can remember I haue euer ben of this minde and yet thou haste ben with me Soule It is so but as a seruant not as a maistresse as I ought for 〈◊〉 thou haddest folowed my counsell and not the other called sensuall thou wouldest haue done as Paule did many other which desired to be taken out of thys life where they knew they were Pilgrims and brought home to their coūtrey Iust Thou beginnest to trouble my brayne till a man comes to the points of death euery one saith so but when death is present the man changeth his fantasy remember our master y ◠went to pray in the gardin to sée if he coulde escape death Soule Ah Iust he did it not for that but to shewe with these passions naturall that he was a man as he had shewed by miracles and with workes supernaturall that he was God but let vs reserue this talke till a more conuenient time what meaneth it thou arte so long about to light that match Iust I thinke it is
Iust Then you be as a man might say a thyng of nothing Soule Yea folowing the opinion of the common people whiche call that nothyng that is not compounded of earthe water of fire makyng no accompt of aire I thinke if in this chāber there were not these chestes thys bed and other thyngs thou wouldest say it were emptie if thou wouldest say truthe Iust Should I not say it wer emptie when nothing is in it Soule Yes surely but there shoulde be somewhat in it Iust What should there be when there is nothyng I feare me thou woldest make me beleue glasse wormes to be lanternes Soule The aire should be there Iust What aire or no aire when a tubbe is emptie I knowe there is nothing in it and I sée it euery day Soule And what vessels be they that thou euer hast séene emptie Iust Mary all those in my shop Soul Ah foole be they not ful of aire Iust No for if thou lookest well there is darkenesse and where aire is there is light Soule Then the nyghte when it is darke is none aire This is as ye speake of yong babes whiche you say haue no soules vntill they be baptized which if it were true it shoulde folow that neither Turke nor Iewe had soule but let vs leaue this Thou art little practised and followest the ignorant but that thou shouldest not remain in this thy false opinion thou oughtest to vnderstand that the ayre hath a body as well as the water or the earth but it is a little more fyne is darke of it self yf it be not lightned of the Sunnebeames or of some other lighte And further thou must vnderstande that no emptye called Vacuum can be in Nature that is to say that in this vniuersall worlde there is no place but is full of some bodye And of this thou mayst make a thousande experiences euery daye but I will teach thée but one and that is with that vessell wherewith thou watrest thy gardin for stopping the the hole aboue the water commes not out of the holes beneath and that cometh of none other cause but that the hole aboue beyng stopped the aire can not enter in whereby if the water shoulde goe oute that place shoulde remayne voyde the whyche bycause Nature can not abyde she makes the water remayne contrarie to hir nature in that place Iust And who knowes that that is the cause Soule Who knowes euery man that hath witte Iust I will tell thée the truth these be certaine things that I can not skil of and I think they be toyes to make a man madde I doe knowe that a vesselle that hathe nothyng in it is voyde and I can neuer beléeue otherwyse I hope that thou wylte not vse me as Mathewe Serui was who was made to beleue that he was an other man than he tooke him selfe and that he was a Carpenter and made Tergates whereby he entred into such a conceipte that when he came to houses where he vsed to goe and sawe olde Tergats hang there hée beganne to saye that he knewe of them that were made of hys owne hande Soule Then sée howe harde it is when one is farre brought to vnderstande a thyng euill to sette hym in the ryght way Iust What wouldest thou say that when I woulde euen nowe haue embraced thée and founde nothyng that I did imbrace somewhat ah Soule Dyddest thou not imbrace the aire Iust What ayre I knowe I imbraced nothyng within a while thou wouldest make me beleue that when my stomacke is emptie it were full the whiche yf I woulde beléeue I shoulde dye for hunger God kéepe mée Soule I saye vnto thée that yf wée should graunt voidenesse a thousand inconueniences shoulde folow as for example If betwene thée me were nothing thou couldest not sée me Iust Oh God sée howe this geare groweth For out of doubt it is contrary for if there were any body betwene thée and me then coulde I not see thée Soule It is true if it were such a body that thy syght or imagination coulde not passe thou couldest not sée me but that should rise of an other occasion than a voide place betwéene thée and me Iust Tell me howe this thyng is meant for I vnderstand it not Soule If betwéene vs were emptinesse none aire thē shold ther be no light Wherfore the beames of thine eyes coulde not come to thée nor my image come to thine eyes For light is a qualitie and qualitie is an accident and no accident can stand without a subiect that rules it then if here were none aire that did stay the light here coulde be none Iust As for me I vnderstand not what thou meanest Soule Heare then if thou canst vnderstande me an other waye when thou standest by the fyre what is it that heateth thée Iust The fire Who knoweth not that this is a childishe thing Soule But that is not true Iust Oh what heates me the wind Thy matters be childrens toyes if I would beleue them Soule The aire heateth thée which toucheth thée whiche is heated of the fire for the fire not touching thée can not heate thée for no body can worke in an other vnlesse he touche it Iust What meanest thou by that Soule I meane that if there were any emptie place betwene thée and the fire thou shouldest neuer be heated For that heate whiche is an accident hauyng nothyng to holde it coulde not come vnto thée but béeyng stayde by the ayre whiche commeth to thée that ayre that toucheth thée being hotte doth heate thée also Iust Wel I wyl tel thée the truth Thou myghtest tell me thys tale an hundred yeare and I beleue I should neuer vnderstande thée any thyng to thys purpose and neuer beléeue thée Soule I sée thys mornyng thou art not apt to receyue the truthe therefore I wyll not talke of any other thyng and it is tyme thou goest to thy worke To morowe at the accustomed houre I will goe from thée and take this bodye and reason wyth thée and thou shalte be better dysposed to vnderstande mée than thou art nowe Iust If wée tarrie vntill to morowe thou shalte peraduenture bée better in thy brayne and tell me no thyngs that no man vnderstands Soule But sée thys nyght thou kepest thy candle lyght for I wyll not thou spende so muche tyme aboute it to morowe The .iij. Reasoning SOVLE IVST THe crowing of the cock hath not serued this morning O Iust to wake thée it is almost day and thou stepest thou answerest not but stretchest thy selfe what meanes it Iust I am halfe mynded to be angry with thée Soule Why arte thou sorie I haue broke thy slepe Iust For slepe I care not yet it greueth me thou haste waked me for I haue dreamed the most swete and plesant things that euer I saw Soule What things Iust I can not so welle tell thée for they were not as I am wont to dreame things that haue neither hed nor
taile and begin with one thing ends with an other But me thought I was in a quietnesse and without any trouble remeÌ„bring the resons we haue had together and I will tel thée one thing that I haue vnderstanded sleping that I coulde not doe yesterday wakyng of that VacuuÌ„ or emptie place which yesterday would not enter and I remembre I haue pierced a full barel and neuer could cause wine to come out if I did not first open a vente and I neuer considered that it came of that thou diost speake And I will tell thée more that nowe I know how a swimmer a companion of mine was one day deceiued of one of out citizens that wan certaine fishes of him whiche of them shoulde stande longest vnder the water and heare how he did He desired to holde on his heade one of these pottes with two eares saying he did so bicause the water did hurte his head and he that vnderstode not the deceit did graunt it him My friende set it on his heade downewarde and occupied the tyme that the aire that was within did not go out and so no more water did enter than doth in a cuppe that is rineed downeward in such sort as he might stande as long as he woulde hauyng no water aboute his mouthe Thou séest what I haue vnderstanded by dreaming Soule And whereof thynkest thou commeth this dreame since thou callest it a dreame Iust What know I wherof commeth other that I haue all the yere Soule No Iust for this didde rise of me onely and the other that thou dreamest riseth of mine other inferiour partes and of spirites which do represent to thée sléeping the images of those thyngs that Fansie hath impressed in the bloud by the meane of the senses and therfore many tymes we dreame in the night those things we sawe in the day and the more the bloud is altred the more strong and disordinate thyngs wée dreame as thou mayst know by thy selfe when that thou haste bene sicke or troubled with a feuer or when thou hast bene well washed with wine in the which yf it bée good thou thou haste delyght Iust It hath pleased thée also as I thinke for I neuer dronke but when I was whole Iust of whom thou art so great a part as thou sayst Soule Ah ah thou haste now learned so much philosophie as thou knowest that neyther the soule nor the body of it selfe is man Iust I can not tel I haue told thée Soule Surely when soeuer one is touched where it grieueth hym hée crieth But be not angrie Iuste I wyll not for all thys speake of thée any villanie For in very déede it is is not altogether euill to me for good Wine maketh good Bloud and good bloud dothe make the spirites more cléere whereby the senses maye the better healpe to woorke my operations Iust I looked thou wouldest haue sayde And good bloud maketh a good man and the good man goeth to Paradise Soule Make thée ready make thée ready quickely and sitte downe that we may talke together at leasure Iust Sitte thée downe till I bée ready Soule Ah Iust thou doest not yet vnderstand that I am one of the substances without body and immortal and suffer none of those thyngs that doe offende thée and that that I will now say vnto thée may be a mean to make thée beleue that thy dreamyng thys mornyng was not a dreame in déede bycause it proceded not altogether as the other which thou hast wisely called dreames of y e sensitiue parte which thou hast common with other brute beastes which do dreame also but it was as I told thée only my work with the help of thy senses For whiles thou wert dreaming finding my self frée I dyd retire into my self and with my part diuine for so may I call it hauing it of God I did work in thy partes apt to vnderstande and to learne those intellections and conceipts which thou confessest thou neuer hadst before wherby thou mayst easily persuade thy self that although I am vnited to thée in suche sort as it semeth I cannot be without thée that I am immortal and can wel be without thée seing I can do some operatioÌ„ without thée as thou hast perceiued Iust I will tell thée the truth thou doest persuade so wel that thou sayst that I can not but beleue thée bicause I thinke that thou being my part I meane when I am perfect Iust that thou oughtest not to deceiue me But now I am ready and I will sette me downe as thou baddest me and aske thée certayne questions more quietly than I haue done Soule Say what thou wilt â–ª for I wil satisfy thy desire in all thyngs that I can Iust The first thing I would knowe of thée is Why thou shouldest lament of me for the first time that I hard thée speake in my head as I remeÌ„ber thou saydst thou neuer hadst rest in me being yong and lesse couldst hope to haue any now when I am olde Soule Iust neuer repeate that for if I did lament of thée I had good cause Iust I do not remember that euer I did any thyng against Iust for then I had done it against my selfe and then haue I done nothing against thée séeing thou sayst that thou and I be Iust Soule It is so but thou haste not done as I would Iust How can that be for I neuer knew till nowe that any other was in my selfe but I but if thou louest me as thou sayst I pray thée thou wouldst tel me wherin I haue offended thée that at least the little time we haue to lyue together I may no more offend thée Soule Wel Iust I am content Dost thou not know that I am the noblest creature that is from the Heauen or the Moone dounward Iust Yes and I haue heard it preached many times Soule Dost thou not know also that I am all diuine all spirituall made of the proper hand of God after his similitude preferred afore all creatures that be in this world Iust I haue read all thou saist in the Bible but of man not of thée only and let vs vse it so that thou dost not attribute it to thy selfe only where I also haue a parte Soule Iust our vnion whereby of vs is made man is so maruellous that what is spoken of the one is spoken of the other as Aristotle doth well shew saying that he that saith the Soule loueth or hateth myght as well say the soule spinneth or soweth neuerthelesse this dignitie thou haste of me bicause thou art earthly corporall without reason but I cause y â— thou art called a person diuine a creature reasonable Iust And how Soule It were a long work to make thée vnderstand that let it suffise thée y â— I being with thée becoÌ„ming thy form by mean of thy vital spirit which is the â—and y â— holdes vs togither I make thée a creature y â— taketh
a trée whereby it foloweth a yarde to be nothing but in our cogitation as a yarde can doe neither good nor hurt Iust Thou mightst aske my prentice if it can do hurt or no y t so oft haue laid with it good blowes vpon him Soule This operation he doeth as a trée as he is really not as a yarde so shold an other haue done that serued not for a measure Therefore if thou wouldest nedes lament thou must do it of heauen which with his mouing maketh al things to varie that be included within thē of the which thou canst not reasonably doe it bicause he with his mouing gendring all things is y ◠cause why thou also art And though it séemeth the cause why thou other decay this commeth not principally of him bicause his intētion is to maintaine this vniuersal but by reason y t he hath none other maner to make y ◠things whereof you be made which goeth continually chaūging vnder diuerse formes therefore you wax old and finally decay Yet can you not lament for this of him that hath made you being better to be of a matter corruptible thā to be nothing at all which thou oughtst not to doe for though thou arte mortall thou arte vnited with me which am immortall in suche sort as I shall make thée also immortall by the grace of him that hath created me sent me vnto thée when we shal rise at y ◠day of the great iudgement So sée how euill thou doest to cōplayne of time and perhaps the more bicause thou art waxen olde the age wherein thou now art being no lesse worthie to be estemed or paraduenture better than all they Iust To this I wil say thou art cunning if thou cāst make me vnderstād it Soule I hope it shall not be hard for me to doe it if thou wilt heare reason and folow it as thou oughtst But it is now day arise and go to thy businesse and as I shall sée thée disposed another time of these things I will kéepe promise with thée The .x. Reasoning SOVLE IVST IVst O Iust awake for it is now time complaine not this morning that thyne age hath taken away thy sléepe for thou hast slept this night as well as when thou wast a childe Iust O my Soule thou saist truth I am so comforted y ◠me think I came but now to bed But what is y t cause I haue slept better now thā I am wont I pray thée tell me the cause if thou canst Soule If I should aunswer thée the disposition of the heauen which paraduenture now is in a being much appropriate to the temperature of thy complexion thou mightst aunswer me that this is y ◠aunswere of y ◠ignorant which not knowing the particular causes of things bringeth forth euer vniuersall aūswering to thē y ◠aske thē God the heauen wil haue it so Wherefore comming to y ◠perticularitie wherwith our desire is quieted I say y ◠thy temperate séeding hath ben the cause which thou didst vse yesternight whereby the quātitie of thy nutrimēt not hauing ouercome the force of the heate that ought to séeth it there hath risen in thée no trouble euerie power hath ben able to doe his office liberally So as if thou sléepest not so other nights the fault is many times of thy fragilitie and not of thyne age which as I haue sayd vnto thée doth not deserue to be blamd more than the other which thou hast passed Iust Wouldest thou make me vnderstand that olde age which is the receipt of troubles should be good Soule I wil not make thée beleue any thing but I will onely shew thée the truth which thing I shall well doe this morning bicause thou hast so well reposed thy self as thou art more hable to vnderstande reason now than when thou hast by some accident altered thy humors and troubled thy spirites Iust I wil heare thée with a good wil truely for I know that of euery opiniō be it neuer so muche against reason a man learneth somewhat But I shall desire thée y t thou wilt not doe as they whose purpose is only to persuade vsing all reason and coniecture being neuer so false so it haue any meane to obtaine their desire Soule Doubt not of this for I shuld doe thée too muche iniurie and whome should I deceiue but my selfe being so vnited with thée that must haue the same fortune Soule Then thou shalt doe thy duetie and when thou wouldest doe otherwise I should yelde a recompence contrary and doe to thée as he did to the frier maister of the reuestrie in the Anuntiata who wold haue bought a candle to haue offred to that image for a vowe and the frier saying to him take one of these that be here in the churche and giue the mony which thou shouldst spend to the reuestrie then giuing him a bunche of candles in his hande said take which thou wilt and it shall be as good as if thou hadst euen now put it in the altare The mā doing as y ◠frier bad him said now touche you this purse wherin my money is and it shal be euē as good vnto you as if you had it and so the one was euen with the other Soule Iust let these toyes goe for I tell thée certainly that I shal make thée vnderstand y t olde age doth not deserue to be blamed nor called a worse age thā any of the other And that thou mightst better vnderstand mark what wants it hath or wherof men do blame it and I wil shew thée how much both thou and they be deceiued for I otherwise could not defend it not knowing any wāt in it And whē I haue deliuered it of those blames then will I shew the praises of it and I hope in the end that it shall no lesse please thée to be olde than yong Iust If ther wer none other thing but this y t we olde men be not only litle estemed but rather scorned of euery one dost y u not think y t old age is an il thing Soule Yes if it came of hir self but if thou considerest wel to whom this happeneth y u shalt sée it procedeth not of old age but of them selues which hauing had little accōpt of their honor in their life haue bene cause that mē giue them not that reuerēce y t they ought to haue wherby if they be in litle reputation w t other their behauior is the fault not their age So as if thou hast none other cause to blame hir this is worthe nothing but rather discouereth what thy maners be or haue ben y t causeth their blame in their olde age Iust Yes I haue reasōs too many but bicause I sée I cā neuer proue any with thée I will not speake them but yelde to thée and will also if I can force my self to beleue thée for if I could do so it wer