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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96167	An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.	Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769	70,175	76

Art 10. ●sw Consider first 1 The Gifts Graces and abilitie of discerning that were in the Apostles above any Minister now living who as they were able to preach with lesse time of studie so to dispatch and turne over weighty businesse with more speede and dexterity then we are 2 The extraordinary wonderfull and visible stroke of God upon the spirits and hearts of men that heard Peter at that time the meeting the language their understanding of it Gods assistance of Peter and blessing on the word all extraordinary Such a day such a Sermon such effects as never were before nor like to be to the end of the world so the power of God was remarkable in their conversion so also in their expression and demonstration of it So that there needed little triall when God spake himselfe from Heaven Answer to CHAP. VI. HE reports to recite such things onely as most neede Answer and let the rest passe Art 1. 2. That we hold that Christ hath invested with all power any that are in Church-fellowship that though they be all illiterate yet they may make examine all their Officers unmake depose them when they see cause so to doe and preach expound and apply the word with all Authority yea and doe it without any ref●rence at all to their Officers as Officers when they have them ●nsw If I did delight in retorting I could say of these words as hee of Holland Ministers Apologie They are a meere Gull for almost so many words so many mistakes The Narratour should have done well first to have proved all the Churches and Ministers in New-England men out of their wits and voide of common sense and then hee might more easily have made the world beleeve they hold and practise such a congeries of absurdities and impossibilities For else many of them there being well known to bee learned godly and sober men no wise men will beleeve him that they can hold that 1. Illiterate men can examine Pastors fitnesse 2. Depose them at pleasure 3. Preach expound and apply the word with all authority 4. And that without any reference to their Officers at all 5. And which is m●st strange that Christ himselfe hath invested these illiterate ones with all power to doe all these things For 1. It is a received practise amongst us that when any combine into a Church there is one at least of them indued with able parts of humane and divine learning that either hath been a Minister in our native countrey or is fit to be one amongst them who usually and frequently preacheth to them after they are united So that al of them are not men illiterate ☜ and W. R. himselfe knowes this to be true for the Answer to the 32. quest 42. which is very page hee here quotes directly saith this in so many words 2. That those illiterate men do examine their Ministers abilities and that we hold they ought is another great mistake for so wee should put men upon a worke beyond their reach which were idle whereas the truth is that if the suffici●ncy of such men as they intend to call into office bee not well knowne to them they use to call in the helpe and assistance of Elders in other Churches to surveigh their abilities and to informe them therein that thereby as well as by their owne experience of them and discerning of their gifts they may be able to give in their suffrage for election when the time comes 3. For their unmaking and deposing them againe when they see cause Wee hold and professe it a thing most injurious to Jesus Christ himselfe in heaven to his Ministers on earth and such a thing as not only Christ will summon Churches at the great day to answer unto but our Churches there will also expect satisfaction from them for it if they should thus depose Ministers as he saith when they see cause unlesse Christ himselfe shall see good cause to allow their fact to be done according to the rules of his owne word Wee are so farre from holding this that wee protest against such practises And to shew how wary wee are in this point no Church dares trust her owne judgement but our manner is as his quoted Authour speakes Answer to 34. q. of p. 41. Our practise is in removall of Ministers to have counsell and assistance from sister Churches 4. Whereas he saith also That we hold that men illiterate should preach with all authority which is a worke and a taske for the ablest Ministers to performe is as farre from us as any of the other For though wee deny not but in some case some able judicious experienced Christians may humbly soberly when necessity requires as in the want of Ministers being invited thereunto dispence now and then a word of exhortation to their brethren This is farre enough from Preaching in an ordinary way with all Authority which are words of his owne put in without any ground 5. But for him to adde that we hold they may thus preach when they have Officers and that without any reference at all to them is extreamly contrary to our practise and furthest from the truth For this would directly crosse Christ his institution of calling Officers in his Church and make meere cyphers of them whose Office it is not onely to preach but to rule and governe the Assembly to open the doore of speech to any in the congregation and to shut it up by silence so that none may so much as speak without his allowance ☞ And this expression of his is contrary to his owne Narration in Art 8. where he saith That some of the Acts we ascribe to our Ministers in Office are to declare unto their people the minde of God and to moderate in Church-meetings yet here he speakes cleane contrary to himselfe and the truth also ☞ 6. For him to adde That wee hold that Christ hath invested these illiterate men with all power to doe all these things so farre beyond their power and all ordinary possibility contrary to all rule and to his owne institution is to put upon us one of the grossest absurdities that ever was heard of even to make Christ crosse himselfe and to be a patron of confusion in his owne house by investing them with all power to oppose his owne rules of Order Now let us see what grounds our Nartatour hath to lay all these charges against us You will thinke sure his proofes are strong or hee would never have ventured to blemish so many thousands of Gods faithfull I servants in such sore accusations as these True hee quotes many and that I might see his bottom I have surveied all the printed Authors in every page quoted ☞ and I solemnly professe it that none of these particulars rehearsed as hee hath laid them downe much lesse in them all will any of them beare him out and I desire the Reader to try whether

businesse as in the sight presence of God with fasting prayer at least should stop mens mouths from speaking ill of them and their wayes Yet W. R. failes in his dealing with them in divers points which I desire to advertise him of in the spirit of meeknesse In that offensive phrase saying those Persons come now to be Churches he well knowes the meaning of that word It doth not become gravitie and holinesse to give such deriding words nor ludere cum sanctis God heares all our words and sees the scope of our hearts therein But if he meant innocently in it I should be sorrie that I once named it He speakes twise both in Art 6. and 8. of the Messengers of the Magistrates s●nt to the gathering of the Churches ●nsw But there is no such thing done the Magistrates come themselves in person if they can or if not they send no Deputies or Messengers the Churches indeed send Messengers commonly their Elders to lend them a word of counsell if they need being more experienced in those ways then cōmonly new beginners are to joyne their prayers with theirs to give them the right hand of fellowship But the Magistrates send no Deputies He reports in Art 8. That if the Messengers or any standers by be unsatisfied they make their objections as they thinke fit untill they be satisfied Then in his Marginalls upon it It 's an hard thing saith he to satisfie all commers in what they please If any objection be against his life it must be presently and openly declared before the country This is little wisedom lesse charity ●ns Here are many unwise and uncharitable passages laid unjustly to our charge and all those without any proofe at all but onely H. W. I. W. who knowes where to consult with them As 1. That any stander by yea all commers may question or object 2. and that even what they please 3. if any failings be in their lives they are presently and openly declared before all the country Which things are nothing so For 1. None may speake a word but soberly and orderly And 2. not without leave desired and granted 3. nor how much hee will nor what hee please but things very weighty and necessary And 4. not of any failings to their disparagement For if they be unsatisfied with any of them in point of discipline or matters of fact they are first to deale with them in private seeing they know before both the Persons that are then to joyne and the time and occasion of that daies meeting And I am confident never a Godly sober man will write other wise It 's little wi●dome or charity I am sure for him to affirme things so contrary to the truth That if the M ssengers be unsatisfied with any of those that are about to enter into Church fellowship they are forbidden to enter into Church estate ●nswer This is as wide as the rest For the Messengers never arrogated to themselves such power to this day nay they professedly expresse against it constantly in such meetings as to forbid their entrance into Church estate The most they doe at any time in this case is to desire leave to be faithfull in interposing their counsell and that only when they see very great cause And withall leave them to their Christian liberty Now having answered to the Articles we will speake something to those of the Marginalls on this 5. chapter which are not touched already He tells us Mar. to Art 2. that there are too many here who runne the same Church-courses with us that hold that the Magistrate hath nothing to doe with the first table But 1. he knowes or may know at least that this opinion is utterly against our Judgement practise and established Iawes in New-England Answ therefore it no way concerns us 2. Nor doth it any whit reflect upon our cause which he is too ready upon this or any occasion to disgrace for none are more dependant upon Magistracy then those they call Independants from whose principles they never sucked that dangerous opinion therefore he did not well to give such by-blowes to innocent persons and waies 3. If this should be a blot to our cause that some of our Church-way hold ill opinions let him make it appeare that none of his way are grosly tainted with Popish and Arminian leavin or else blot out this Margent He saith Margent to Art 2. It seemes to him we have little lesse then a compound Presbyterie set up amongst us and Church-Canons in act though not in rule and gives his instances for this 1. As it is saith he an agreement amongst the Churches and Ministers that no Church shall be set up there without the knowledge of other Churches There is a compound Presbyterie 2. That no man shall preach or vent any new or uncouth tenants untill first he hath communicated them with his fellow Ministers A very good Canon 3. That such as are to enter into Church estate do use to meete together before hand to acquaint themselves in private with each other spiritual estate a Canon 1. Doe Canons bind people to obedience Answer so farre only as they please to agree unto them and no further these Canons are an agreement 2 Doe Presbyteries consist of whole Churches for he saith as it is an agreement of Churches as well as Ministers its little lesse then a compound Presbyterie If Ministers and people both doe rule who shall be ruled over by this Presbyterie 3. He answers the thing and contradicts himselfe both at once for he saith Art 2. this giving notice to Magistrates and Churches of a Church to be erected is by a law of the generall court and cannot be as he saith in Margent and agreement of Churches therefore no Ecclesiasticall Canon Suppose many Godly Ministers in London should agree amongst themselves that every one should preach downe the superstition of that they call Christmas and promise each other that till they should give in their reasons to the contrary they would not preach for or against discipline would W. R. call this agreement a Presbyterie or a Canon Let him see then how extreamely wide he is in the other If Churches saith he send Deputies or Messengers to represent themselves and to act in their room why not in a Synod as well Marg. to Art 6. ●nsw If Churches send their messengers or chosen men to conferre and consult onely in a Synod in their names without any Authority of concluding and determining of matters or much lesse binding their Churches to what they determine of which is our case in New-England as we have said I know nothing against such a practise But if Synods doe more and goe further his allegation is to no purpose If so much time saith he be spent in joyning seven or eight persons together into one Church how much time would be requisite to ioyne 3000 together but the Apostles went a shorter way Marg. to