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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88948	A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.	1647 (1647)	Wing M1275; Thomason E386_9; ESTC R201478	144,474	133

reason which doth shew that the Iewes and they are very unlike the Iewes having a supreame Iudicatory for the finall ending of Cruses and they having none were to shew our selves very irrationall or worse end why our Brother should put such a thing upon us we being no wayes guilty thereof we do not know But we desire that our reason may be applyed to our own conclusion to which we did and do apply it and not to this other expressed by our Brother which indeed is none of ours and then we are content that rationall and judicious Readers may judge whether or no there be any sufficient weight therein Which that they may more readily do I have here recollected the same into this short summe that they may briefly behold it with one view viz If the Iewes had a supreame Iudicatory for the finall ending of causes and the Congregationall way hath the like If the Iewes had a standing Iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes and the Congregationall way hath the like and if the supreame Iudicatory among the Iewes was very farre remote from many of them and in the Congregationall way be more convenient and neere at hand then the Congregationall way is in some things equall to the Iewes and in other things more excellent But the first is true in all the particulars and therefore the second is true also Againe If the Iewes had a supreame Iudicatory for the finall ending of causes and the way of our Brethren hath not If the Iewes had a standing Iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes and the way of our Brethren hath not and if the supreame Iudicatory among the Iewes was very remote from many of them and Synods among our Brethren are the same then the way of our Brethren is in some things as defective as the Iewes and in other things more defective then theirs But the first is true in all the particulars of it and therefore the second is true also Both the Assumptions in all the branches thereof I conceive are cleerely proved in the Answer in the Pages which our Brother doth alledge and whether the Consequence be good let the wise judge Having thus reduced our Argumentation to its own proper and genuine shape let us now consider of Mr. Rutherfords answer thereto First saith he The speedinesse of ending controversies in a Congregation is badly comprised with the suddainnesse and temerity of delivering men to Satan upon the decision of three Elders without so much as asking advise of any Classes of Elders and with deciding questions deepe and grave which concerneth many Churches which is a putting of a private sickle in a common and publicke harvest Answ If advise from other Churches may be had we never spake word for doing weighty matters without the same but in such cases it is both our practise and advise to make use thereof And therefore this delivering men to Satan in way of temerity or rashnesse toucheth not us whose opinion and practise is other wise As for suddainnesse I conceive if the same be sometimes accompanyed with temerity and rashnesse and so worthy to be blamed yet not alwayes for in the Reformation of the House of God in the dayes of Hezekiah it is said that the thing was done suddainly 2 Chron. 29. 36. Where suddainnesse doth not signifie any sinfull temerity or r●shnesle But contrarily doth testifie Gods great goodnesle that had so prepared the people to so good a worke for this cause this suddainnesse was to Hezekiah and Gods people an occasion and ground of great joy and gladnesse which temerity could not have been And therefore suddainnesse and temerity must not alwayes be confounded and coupled together as if they were the same Though hasty delivering of men to Satan without due consideration be not good yet overlong delay of due proceeding against Delinquents is bad also for the Holy Ghost tels us because sentence against an evill worke is not executed speedily therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evill Eccl. 8. 11. For which cause execute judgement in the morning that is to say speedily is sometimes expresly required Jer. 21. 12. Which being spoken of justice to be executed by civill Authority doth hold by proportion and like reason in Ecclesiasticall censures for as much as speedinesle is a duty and delayes are daangerous in the one case as well as in the other Whereas our Author thinkes much that Excommunication should proceed upon the decision of three Elders as we know nothing but a Congregation may have more Elders then the three if God provide them fit men and the numerousnesse of the Congregation so require in which case our Author saith nothing to the contrary but they may have power to Excommunicate so if they have but three we know nothing in this but they may have power to Excommunicate notwithstanding since himselfe teacheth Due Right Page 61. That the Iewes had their Congregationall Churches as we have and had their meeting in their Synagogues not only for Doctrine but also for Discipline and Excommunication Which if it be so it seemes there might be Excommunication by as small a number as three unlesse it could appeare that in every Synagogue the Elders and Rulers in it were a greater number then is here mentioned which is more then I do remember to be expressed in Scripture Yea and further he tels us That the inferiour Iudicatures in Israel had power of life and death Page 315. Now the Iudges in these inferiour Iudicatures though they must never be under that number of three yet they did not alwayes exceed the same for ought that doth appeare And if three Iudges had power of life and death why may not a Congregation with three Elders have power of Excommunication Moreover in his Page 454. He gives us these words for a Proposition That it floweth connaturally from a Church to which agreeth the essence of Church to exercise Jurisdiction over all its own members to which those words do also agree Page 287. viz. The power and right to Discipline is a propriety essentiall to a Church and is not removed from it till God remove the Candlesticke and the Church cease to be a visible Church And in Page 302. Hee affords us these words for an Assumption that a Congregation is a Church wanting nothing of the being and essence of a Church And hence the conclusion is obvious that a Congregation may exercise Iurisdiction over all it own members and in as much as a Congregation in which are but three Elders is a Congregation it followeth that a Congregation in which are but three Elders may exercise such Iurisdiction This conclusion our Author cannot deny in as much as it necessarily and directly followeth from Premises which are both his own Yea in his Page 302. H● saith That this is a principle of Church policie that every politicke body of Christ hath power of Church government

have taken things upon my report upon trust and partly that my candid and faire dealing with the Author whom I have to doe withall might the better appeare For when a mans words are not kept but forsaken and others substituted in their place his minde and meaning may soone be mistaken and represented amisse unto the Reader Which is a practise that I have often seene but never approved and therefore I have not used it For I would be loth to wrong any man specially a man of such worth as I take Master Rutherfurd to be by imputing to him what he doth not teach nor deliver and for this cause it is that I have usually transcribed and expressed his owne words and by this meanes my booke is growne to the greater bulk One thing more I would advertise the Reader of and then I shall quickly have done the figures from 185 and so forward noting the number of the Pages in Master Rutherfurd his Treatise are set downe twice therein once in their proper place and againe after the page 484. Wherefore if any of these pages be quoted in this Reply as some of them are if the thing that is alleaged be not found in the page that is named looke for it in the other place of the booke where are the same figures and there you may finde it Courteous Reader study the truth in a way of Piety and peace Be zealous for it but lose not love to the Saints beware when the world is filled with disputes about discipline that thou be not drawne onely to erroneous opinions in maine matters of doctrine Be sure to practise and expresse the power of Godlinesse in humility of minde mortification of thy own corruption faith in the Lord Jesus and love to all his redeemed and be not by any meanes drawne away from these things which doe so mainly conduce to thy salvation Finally as the Holy Ghost saith Phil. 4. 8 9. whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are just whatsoever things are lovely pure and of good report if there be any vertue if there be any praise thinke on these things and doe them and the God of peace shall be with thee Improve I pray such interest as thou hast in God through the mediator by affording the help of thy Prayers for me who am Truly desirous of thy Salvation R. M. Decemb. 10. 1646. A Table of the Contents of the ensuing Treatise Chap. 1. OF Appeales from particular Congregations and the true cause of Appeales and whether by Mr Rutherford his doctrine in this point there must not be appeales to Generall Counsells whose power of Iurisdiction he doth not yet deny page 2. Chap. 2. Of the power of Synods to give advite and Counsell and whether from thence it doth follow that they have no power to command page 11. Chap. 3. Of the Assembly Acts. 15. whether they did exercise any power of Iurisdiction against the obtruders of Circumcision and whether their rebuking of them does argue the Affirmative page 15. Chap. 4. Of the Dogmaticall power of Synods And of the power of Congregations to determine matters amongst themselves if ability serve thereto page 21. Chap. 5. Againe of that Assembly Acts. 15. whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of Iurisdiction and excommunication in Synods and whether preaching do prove the Assembly where it is to be a Church page 24. Chap. 6. Whether the power of Synods be a power of Iurisdiction and of the dependance of the Synagogues upon the Synedrion at Ierusalem page 30. Chap. 7. Whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of Appeales doe prove a superiority of Iurisdiction in Synods over Congregations and of sundry sayings of our Author which seeme to interfere page 39. Chap. 8. Whether Antioch Acts. 15. had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves if they had bin able and whether their sending to Jerusalem for helpe or their knowledge that other Churches were troubled with the like evill or the party among themselves who were against the truth do prove the contrary And of Supremacy of power in Congregations page 49. Chap. 9. Whether the Congregationall way or the Presbyteriall do make the Gospel more defective then the Law of Excommunication by a Church that hath onely three Elders and of doing things suddenly page 66. Chap. 10. Whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of Sacraments and whether a Congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise entirenesse of Iurisdiction as well as one that hath none and whether a man may take on him the whole Minestry having no outward calling thereto and may not as well take on him one act of baptising or ministring the Lords Supper page 75. Chap. 11. Whether the power of Iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a Church doe not agree to a Church that hath neighbours as well as to a Church that hath none and whether otherwise neighbouring Churches be not a losse And whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring Churches to deprive a Congregation of its power page 93 Chap. 12. Whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be Iudge and whether Mr Rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach and whether this saying that parties may not be Iudges do make against entirenesse of power in a Congregation any more then in a Generall or Nationall Councell page 104. Chap. 13. Whether the Churches at Thessalonica and Jerusalem were each of them more then one Congregation and of Mr. Baynes his judgement therein Of the Assembly mentioned Luke 12. and whether our Saviour did there speake to his Disciples onely or to all the people also page 112. Chap. 14. Whether the Church at Corinth was one Church meeting distributively in sundry Congregations or whether it was onely one Congregation And whether 1 Cor. 14. 23. If the whole Church come together in some place c. doe make for sundry Congregations or for one onely page 123. Chap. 15. Whether the Church at Ephesus were more in number then Corinth and Jerusalem and the judgement of Mr Baynes whether that Church was many Congregations or one onely page 137. Chap. 16. Whether the Church at Antioch was onely one Congregation and whether Acts. 14. 27. and 15. 30. doe not prove the affirmative page 140. Chap. 17. Whether or no liberties are given by Christ to the people but women must exercise the same as well as men And of the peoples liberty about ordination or the calling of Ministers page 146. Chap. 18. Of Mr Rutherfords report of Synodicall propositions in New-England page 151. Chap. 19. Of the Appeales of Luther and Cranmer and of the power of Iurisdiction in generall Councels denied by Mr. Rutherford whether therein be doe not contradict himselfe and also overthrow the Iurisdiction of Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies page 153. Chap. 20. If it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all

such Appeales because such Assemblies doe more seldome erre because many eyes doe see more and doe more seldome miscary in taking up the right object Then it will follow that the greatest Assemblies in as much as they have the most eyes doe of all others most seldome erre and so to them there must bee the most Appeales For the learned Author well knowes à quatenùs ad Omni● valet consequentia And so by this meanes the true cause and reason of Appeales lying according to Mr. Rutherford his apprehension in the rarenesse and seldomnesse of erring in such Assemblies to whom appeales are made and the cause of this seldomnesse of Erring lying in the multitude and great number of eyes in such Assemblies it must needs thereupon follow that Vniversall or generall Councils as having in them the most eyes are the Assemblies that doe most seldome erre and so un●o them there must be most Appeales Which if it be gran●ed the Classicall 〈◊〉 and Nationall Synods are all by this meanes deprived and stri●t of 〈◊〉 of ●●●●diction as well as the particular Congregations the Synods by 〈◊〉 to generall Councils as to those that doe ra●iùs c●rare aswell as the 〈…〉 appeales unto the Synods And so thera must be no entirenesse of 〈…〉 onely in the generall Councils but from all other Synods there must 〈◊〉 liberty of Appeales aswell as from the Congregation This Consequence for ought I see doth unavoidably follow upon that which Mr. Rutherford lay undowne as the cause of Appealing from a particular Congregation and so ou● Brethren by this meanes have spun a fine thred drawing forth a Conclusion which is every what as prejudiciall to their owne Cause as to ours If any aske why may not this Consequence be owned Why may wee not say there must bee liberty of Appeales from all Synods and Presbyteries except onely the generall Councill The Answer is th●t wee may not so say because then Causes would be too long depending a●ore they could come to issue yea perhaps would never come to issue as long as this world shall endure For by this Rule they may by Appeales upon appeales be protracted untill they be brought to a generall Councill to be determined there Now as there hath not beene any such Councill for many Ages by-past so it is very uncertaine when there will be one assembled whether ever or never whilst this world stands But wee thinke Christ Jesus hath provided better for his Church then so and hath not appointed such a necessitie of Appeales upon appeales but that Causes may bee determined afore any generall Councill can be assembled Besides if such Assemblies might be frequently attained yet it is not yet cleered that when they are assembled they have any power of Iurisdiction at all but onely a Doctrinall power to cleare up the Rule the power of Iurisdiction remaining in some other Assembly Sure it is Mr. Rutherford thus teacheth expresly for his words are these Verily I professe I cannot see what power of Jurisdiction to Censure scandals can be in a generall Councill there may bee some meerly Doctrinall power if such a Councill could be had and that is all Due Right c. pag. 482. and in the end of the same Page and beginning of the next speaking of those words Math. 18. Tell the Church hee saith thus Because ordinary Communion faileth when you goe higher then a Nationall Church and Christ's way supposeth an ordinary Communion therefore I deny that this remedy is needfull in any Church above a Nationall Church By which sayings it appeareth that he counts Christs remedy to Censure Scandals not needfull in a generall Councill yea and hee seriously professeth that hee cannot see that such a Councill if it could bee had hath any power of Iurisdiction at all to censure Scandals Which being so it must needs follow that Scandals must be censured and Causes ended somewhere else afore they can come 〈◊〉 such end to a generall Councill And if this bee so then how can that stand which here hee affirmeth that the true cause of Appealing to Synods in this because they doe rariùs errare more seldome Erre then the particuler Congregation and having many eyes doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object For this Cause is most properly appliable to the generall Councill unto whom notwithstanding hee denies any power of Iurisdiction to censure Scandals and if they h●ve no such Power there can bee no Appeales to them for such purpose and end And how these things can stand toget●er That the true cause of Appeales to such or such Assemlies doth he in this that they doe more seldome erre as having many eyes and yet that to generall Councils there should be no Appeales at all as having no power of Iurisdiction though of all others this Cause be most properly ●ound in them I for my part doe confesse I doe not understand If any shall say that as Mr. Ruthe●ford doth make that which I have mentioned the true cause of Appeales so hee doth also hold a Power of Iurisdiction even in generall Councils and shall therefore doubt whether I doe truly report him 〈◊〉 touch the contrary I would wish no more favour of such a one but to peruse the places which I have here above alledged and then I hope hee will ●nd the words to bee no otherwise but as I have set them downe I know indeed there are some places in him which doe looke another way as that where hee saith It is by accident and not through want of inuat● and intrinsecall power that the Court of a Catholick Councill can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise that Power which now we are speaking of Due Right page 308. And a little after hee saith He seeth nothing to prove that a generall Councill hath not power to Excommunicate a Nationall Church Yea and further that if there were a generall Councill at this d●y they might lawfully in a Iuridicall way so are his words doe that to the faction of Romish pretended Catholicks which hee saith is Excommunication in the essence and substance of th● Act. And in the Page next ensuing he saith This of our Saviour Tell the Church is necessarily to be applyed to all Churches and Courts of Christ even to a Catholick Councill These Places I confesse doe seeme to me not very well to agree with the either afore alledged For in the one he plainly affirmes there is in generall Councils power of Iurisdiction to censure Scanda●s and in the other hee doth as plainly deny the same But it is the former places and not these latter which I doe stand upon in which former as I conceive him to hold the truth so for ought I see that which hee saith in this place wee have in hand about the true cause of Appealing from Congregations to Synods is much infirmed thereby For how can that be taken to be the true cause of Appeales which is most