determine my own Right now in this point and I insist upon it and demand it L. C. Justice It may be presently you 'll tell us we have no right to judge of it Oates Yes my Lord you have but I hope I have right to urge it L. C. Justice Urge what you will that is to the purpose but then you must keep to the matter in hand and not make such idle Excursions as these are Oates I will keep to the matter my Lord if you will hear me L. C. Justice So you shall we 'll make you keep to the matter or we will not hear you at all Do not think your Impudence shall storm us out of our Senses Oates My Lord I do insist upon it that these mens Religion is an exception to their Testimony and a Papist is not a good witness in a Cause of Religion and I desire I may have leave to argue that as a Point of Law in my own defence L. C. Justice No Sir it is no point of Law at all Oates Then I appeal to all the hearers whether I have Justice done me L. C. Justice What 's that why you Impudent Fellow do you know where you are you are in a Court of Justice and must appeal to none but the Court and the Jury Oates I do appeal to the hearers L. C. Justice Take him away there if you will not behave your self as you ought I can assure you the Court will do what they ought to do and stop your mouth Oates What you please my Lord I must make my own defence as well as I can L. C. Justice You are here in Judgment before us and are to appeal to us we 'll suffer none of your Common-wealth appeals to your Mobile keep within the Bounds of Decency and say what you can for your self Oates My Lord this I move to the Court as one of my Objections to this Evidence given against me That their Religion makes them no good witnesses especially in this Cause L. C. Justice I tell you that is nothing to the purpose what their Religion is Mr. Just. Holloway Mr. Oates we come not here to dispute Points of Religion we come to try a bare matter of Fact whether you are perjured or no. L. C. Justice I tell you a Papist is a good witness without a Legal Exception Mr. Just Withens 'Pray' Mr. Oates is not a Papist as good a witness as a Dissenter Oates My Lord Cook would not admit a Papist to be a good witness in any Cause Mr. Just Withens How not in a Cause of Meum and Tuum Oates No my Lord not in any Cause between Party and Party L. C. Justice Where is that Opinion Oates I 'll cite you the Case if you please my Lord. L. C. Justice 'Pray' let us hear it Oates It is in Bulstrod's Reports the Second Part 155. A Popish Recusant is not to be admitted a witness between Party and Party Mr. Just Withens May a Presbyterian be a good witness Mr. Oates Mr. Just Holloway Or would Mr. Colledge have been a good Witness Mr. Oates Oates I tell you this was my Lord Cook 's practice L. C. Justice You have our Opinion and be satisfied with it That Book says it was my Lord Cook 's practice and we think if that was his practice his practice was against Law Oates Then another thing I object to their Testimony is their Education L. C. Justice That 's no Objection at all neither Oates My Lord they are bred up in a Seminary against Law and for which their Friends are to be punished L. C. Justice So is every man living that 's bred a Dissenter bred up against Law Oates My Lord I have not offered any Dissenter as Evidence for me L. C. Justice No they are all no doubt of it very good People Good-wife Mayo and her Companions excellent Protestants without all question Oates My Lord I humbly offer a Statute to your Lordship And that is Law sure L. C. Justice Yes a Statute is Law What Statute is it Oates It is 27º of Eliz. Cap. 2. The Law says there L. C. Justice Come we will see what the Law says Read the Statute he speaks of Cl. Crown It is Intituled an Act against Jesuits Priests and other such like disobedient Persons Oates My Lord I desire That the Preamble of the Act may be read Cl. Crown Whereas divers Fersons called and professed Jesains Seminary Priests and other Priests which have been and from time to time are made in the Parts beyond the Seas by or according to the Order and Rites of the Romish Church have of late come and have been sent and daily do come and are sent into this Realm of England and others the Queen's Majestie 's Dominions L. C. Justice This is nothing to this Business before us at all Mr. Justice Withens Does this Statute say they are no good witnesses Oates They own themselves to be Educated at St. Omers and that is against this Law expresly L. C. Justice What then Do they own themselves to be in Orders Jesuits and Priests Then you might say somewhat to them upon this Law but do not spend our time in such Trifles Oates I do not spend your time in Trifles my Lord. It is my Defence L. C. Justice Mr Attorney do you go on for we will not sit here to spend our time for nothing Oates 'Pray' my Lord let me but shew this I only propose one Statute more to your Lordship's Consideration L. C. Justice You may propose to read the whole Statute Book Oates 'Pray' my Lord hear me out L. C. Justice Speak then to the Business in hand Oates It is the Statute made in 3d. King Charles the First Chap. 2. L. C. Justice It is nothing to the purpose Oates I am advised 't is very material for me L. C. Justice I tell you it is not and we 'll not let your importunity prevail upon us to spend our time for nothing There has been a great deal of time spent to no purpose already Oates Then if you will over rule it my Lord L. C. Justice We do over-rule it For it signifies nothing to this purpose Oates 'Pray' my Lord be pleased to give me leave to offer their Judgments in Cases of Conscience whereby they own they have Dispensations to swear Lies for the promoting of the Cause L. C. Justice That is no Evidence neither Oates This is very hard in such a Case as this L. C. Justice No It is not hard that what is no Evidence in Law should not be suffered to be given in Evidence Oates It is Evidence against the poor Dissenters my Lord. L. C. Justice Indeed Sir It is not Evidence against any one body in the World if you will take my word for it if you will not I cannot tell how to help it Oates Then I offer you one thing more my Lord and that is what was said and done in the Case of the Earl of Shaftsbury when
he was charged with High Treason and committed to the Tower of London at several Sessions in the Old Baily and at Hicks's Hall they did move that they might have liberty to bring in an Indictment of Perjury against the witnesses which did accuse him of Treason but now the Court there over-ruled those Motions and would not suffer my Lord of Shaftsbury's Friends to bring Indidictments of Perjury against him because they would not have the King's Evidence Indicted of Perjury nor the Popish Plot called in question This is matter of Fact in the Old Baily L. C. Justice And this is all idle too Oates 'Pray' my Lord will you hear me L. C. Justice But 'pray' Sir will you hear me too I tell you this is nothing to the purpose neither Oates My Lord I desire to speak but these few words then as to my own Witnesses I have produced And the first is Cicely Mayo and my Lord though it be your Lordships pleasure not to have that good opinion of her as I think the poor woman does deserve yet I hope her Evidence will have it's due Weight and Consideration with your Lordship and the Jury she says she saw me in Town in the Month of May Now indeed she could not be positive what May it was but she said it was the May before the Popish Plot broke out that is before the Rumour of that Plot was spread abroad and she believes the Plot broke out in 78. But this she says positively she saw me in the Month of May here my Lord she comes to give this Evidence freely and voluntarily a man that is a Knave is a Knave for something either out of Malice or for Gain or Interest but she has no Reward given her nor can hope for any but in Love to Justice without any by-end or particular Interest she came here to testifie the truth about her seeing me in London in May 78. The next Witness is Mr. Butler he was then Sir Richard Barker's Coachman He lived some years with him as his Servant but he is now set up for himself and he says that when he was about his Masters Business in the Coach-yard and fitting the Coach for to fetch his Master home from Putney I came in and this was in the beginning of May in a disguise and he says he saw me a second time in another disguise Then comes a third Witness that I called and that is Page and he came into the Hall where the Patients use to wait for his Master and there he met me and spoke with me Then I called Walker the Minister but it happens his Memory is not so good now as it was heretofore and indeed I cannot tell how to blame him for 't is so long since that it is impossible for any body to remember the Circumstances of times and places that in some short time after the Fact might have been remembred with far greater Ease I expected Sir Richard Barker might have been here being Subpoened to Justifie the Evidence of these people and I did expect that Mr. Smith would have been examined but I perceived the Court tender of that point as knowing it would then easily have been seen upon which side it was that he was suborn'd that is to make such a Confession as Mr. Attorney would have hinted at L. C. Justice Have you a mind to examine him Mr. Oates with all my heart If you consent to it he shall be examined Mr. Just Withens If you will he shall be examined it was for your sake he was not Mr. Just Holloway It was to do you Right that he was refused to be sworn before Oates Good Mr. Justice Holloway you are very sharp upon me Mr. Just. Holloway No I am not sharp upon you I think the Court did you a great deal of Justice you have no reason to complain Oates But my Lord this I say The Evidence upon which I am now indicted of Perjury is the same which was delivered six years ago at the Old Baily at Whitebread's Trial first and then at Langhorn's Trial where were sixteen Witnesses then produced and heard against me But then my Lord what Credit did they receive at Whitebread and Langhorn's Trials Now if this Evidence that I gave was then to be beleived tho opposed by so many Witnesses what new objection does rise against it which was not then hinted and received an answer For as to all the Records that are brought out of the House of Lords they have not amounted to a Charge sufficient to diminish any mans Evidence in the world for as to the Narrative that is entred there in the Journal I think I and any man else that were concerned as I was may very well defend the truth of it and I do avow the truth of the Popish Plot and will stand by it as long as I have a day to live and I do not question but the Jury upon Consideration of those Protestant Witnesses that I have here brought against these Popish Seminaries will acquit me of this Perjury I leave it to your Lordship and the Jury to judge and I hope those passages of heat that have fallen from me in Court shall not make me fare at all the worse in your Judgement I have called some Noble Lords to testify for me but I find either the distance of time has wrought upon their memories or the difference of the season has chang'd their opinion so that now they disbelieve that which they did believe before and perhaps for as little Reason as L. C. Justice As they believed you at first Oates Yes truely my Lord for as little reason as they believed me at first For I cannot expect that a man who believes without a principal should not recant that belief without a reason L. C. Justice What do you mean by that Oates I name no body L. C. Justice But the Nobility that are here and that have been Witnesses in this Cause are all persons of that Honour that the Court is bound in Justice to take notice of and vindicate them from your scandalous Reflections but only I think that a Slander from your Mouth is very little Scandal Oates Nor from some bodies else neither L. C. Justice But Sir you must be taught better manners Oates I find my Lord I am not to be heard in this Cause with Patience L. C. Justice I think you do not deserve to be heard at all Oates I cannot tell how to help it if you will not hear me L. C Justice Can't you say what you have to say for your self without Reflections and running out into such Extravagancies Oates My Lord you will suffer me to offer nothing that is Material for my Defence Mr. Just. Walcot Do you think it decent for this Court to suffer persons of Honour that by your own desire were sworn to give Testimony in this Cause should lie under the Reproach of your Tongue Oates Good Mr. Justice Walcot was there ever
might obtain a Belief but God forbid that that Belief which was so obtained should protect the Party believed from being called in question for the falshood of that Testimony which was the ground of that Belief It was hardly credible that any Person could be so wicked as to declare such impudent falsities as these but God forbid that we should continue longer under the same blindness and delusion the whole matter is now laid open and detected Therefore Gentlemen if you are satisfied in your Consciences and do believe upon the Testimony and Evidence that has been given here this day that those very things that were so much believed before were credited upon the surprise of a suddain discovery or the boldness of the undertaking yet now do plainly appear to be false then be it I say upon your Consciences if you let this falshood go unpunished It is a Charge upon us who are upon our Oaths as Judges and who must answer to the great Judge of all the World for our Judgments and 't is likewise a Charge upon you that are sworn to try this Cause and must answer as well as we for what you do in it not to have regard to any thing that was done before upon that hurry and surprise but seriously to weigh and consider what is sworn now and from thence to make a Conclusion whether you are not satisfied that Innocent Blood has been spilt by the means of this Fellow Nay in this Case 't is a contracting of much more Guilt than ordinary as it is Murder done under the Forms of Law and common Methods of Justice that men should take away the Lives of their Fellow Creatures by Perjury and False Accusations is of such dreadful Consequence that if the Justice of the Nation shall be afraid to have such matters detected there would be an end of all the Security we have of our Lives Liberties and whatsoever is dear to us Gentlemen the Justice of the Nation lies under a very great Reproach abroad for this particular thing and we must be all of us that have any Concern for the Honour and Good of our Country uneasie till this matter be throughly searched into and impartially determined and I take it to be a Case of the greatest Importance to the Settlement of the Kingdom for the Credit of our Laws for the Honour and Justice of our Kingdom that ever came in Judgment in any of our Courts of Justice And therefore as you respect your own Consciences and the Obligation of that Oath you are now under and as you would be thought to bear any regard to the Peace Honour and Good of your Country take care to examine strictly and impartially into the Merits of this Cause and weigh the Evidence which has been given on all sides Be not at all dismayed with the Apprehensions of Clamour or Calumny from any sort of People whatsoever for doing your Duty neither be led away by the Insinuations of what was believed formerly for you hear the reason which might make Oates be believed then but it is incumbent upon you to enquire whether you have not sufficient reason to be satisfied what the truth now is And Gentlemen I take my self to be the more obliged to take some pains in the pressing a serious and Impartial Consideration of these things upon you because I cannot but say my Blood does curdle and my Spirits are raised that after the Discoveries made I think to the satisfaction of all that has attended this Day to see a Fellow continue so Impudent as to brazen it out as he has done this Day and that there should appear no more Shame and Confusion than what was seen in the face of that monstrous Villain that stood but now at the Bar the pretended Infirmiy of his Body made him remove out of Court but the Infirmity of his depraved Mind the Blackness of his Soul the Baseness of his Actions ought to be looked upon with such Horror and Detestation as to think him unworthy any longer to tread upon the Face of God's Earth You 'll pardon my warmth I hope for it is Impossible that such things should come before any honest man and not have some extraordinary Influence upon him Gentlemen as to the Merits of the Cause you have the positive proof of many Witnesses whose Testimony I shall by and by as well as I can repeat to you but pray you first give me leave to observe somewhat as to some points that have been started at the Barr as Whether a Papist can be a Witness Now suppose all these persons that come here to testify this matter against the Defendant were Papists as they are not except you can take it upon your Oaths and Consciences that all these men are guilty of voluntary and wilful Perjury you must find the Defendant guilty As to their difference in Religion which Oates so much hung upon I must tell you every Papist or Roman Catholick call them how you will except the contrary be made appear by a Legal Exception I mean such as would take off the Testimony of one that were not a Papist is as good a Witness in a Court of Justice as any Protestant whatsoever we are not come here to controvert points of Religions but to try a bare matter of Fact so that all that stuff that you have heard here this day from the Defendant and those Insinuations that he made about their Religion on purpose to cast dirt and filth upon all the Testimony that they have brought against him must signifie nothing with you at all If in Case such Doctrine happen to prevail as he has this day preached then it is in the Power of any Villain to swear any Mischief whatsoever against a Roman Catholick and that Roman Catholick has no way to vindicate himself nor to make the Truth appear We have no such Exceptions to Witnesses in our Law every man till it is made to appear that his Credit is forseited may and ought to be received as a Witness to give Testimony in any Cause so that all that matter is of no Import at all And Gentlemen I am the rather minded to hint this unto you because he has insinuated something out of the Trials of Grove and Pickering and Ireland which was in December in the Year 1677 at which Trial Whitebread and Penwick who had pleaded to the same Indictment were brought on to Trial but because there was but one Witness against them the Court discharged them for that time and they came not again to Trial till the Month of June or July hereafter when they wereconvicted and executed now between that time of Ireland's Trial and the time when Whitebread and the rest came on to Trial again says Oates they had sufficient time to have brought all their Witnesses from St. Omers to testify this business of my being there having notice by the former Trial what Evidence was against them but all the Witnesses
I Do appoint Richard Sare to Print the two Tryals of Titus Otes for Perjury And Order That no other Person do presume to Print the same Jeffreys THE TRYALS Convictions Sentence OF TITUS OTES UPON TWO INDICTMENTS For Willful Malicious and Corrupt PERJURY AT THE KINGS-BENCH-BARR at Westminster Before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys Baron of Wem Lord Chief Justice of His Majesties Court of Kings-Bench and the rest of the Judges of that Court. Upon Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th days of May Anno Domini 1685. And in the First Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord King JAMES the II. c. LONDON Printed for R. Sare at Grays-Inn-Gate in Holborn and are to be sold by Randal Taylor 1685. Die veneris oct Maii 1685. in Banco Regis De Term. Pasch Anni Regni Regis Jacobi primi Dominus Rex versus Titus Oates THis day being apointed for the Tryal of one of the Causes between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates for Perjury the same began between eight and nine in the Morning and proceeded in the manner following First Proclamation was made for Silence then the Defendant was called who appeared in Person being brought up by Rule from the King's Bench Prison where we was in Custody and was advised to look to his Challenges to the Jury that were Impanel'd to try the Cause Oates My Lord I am to manage my own Defence and have a great many Papers and things which I have brought in order to it I pray I may have some Conveniency for the Managing my own Tryal Lord C. Justice Ay Ay let him sit down there within the Bar and let him have Conveniency for his Papers Clerk Crown Cryer swear Sir William Dodson Oates My Lord I except against Sir William Dodson Mr. Att. Gen. What is the Cause of Exception Mr. Oats L. C. J. Why do you challenge him Oates My Lord I humbly conceive in these cases of Criminal Matters the Defendant has Liberty of excepting against any of the Jurors without shewing Cause provided there be a full Jury besides L. C. J. No no that is not so you are mistaken in that Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I am advised so I do not understand the Law my self L. C. J. But we tell you then it cannot be allow'd if Mr. Attorney will consent to wave him well and good Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord I know no reason for it I cannot consent to any such thing L. C. J. Then if you will not have him sworn you must shew your Cause presently Oates My Lord I cannot assign any Cause L. C. J. Then he must be sworn Cl. Cr. Swear him Cryer Sir William Dodson take the Book you shall well and truly try this Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates and a true Verdict give according to the Evidence so help you God Cl. Cr. Swear Sir Edmund Wiseman which was done Richard Aley Esq who was sworn Benjamin Scutt Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. For what Cause Oates My Lord he was one of the Grand Jury that found the Bill L. C. J. Was he so that is an exception indeed what say you Mr. Attorney Att. Gen. My Lord I believe he was upon one of the Indictments but I think it was not this L. C. J. But if he were in either of them he cannot be so impartial Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we will not stand upon it we 'll wave him Cl. Cl. Thomas Fowlis Oates Pray let me see that Gentleman who was shown to him Are you not a Goldsmith in Fleetstreet between the two Temples Fowlis Yes I am Oates Very well Sir I do not except against you only I desire to know whether it were you or not Cl. Cr. Swear him which was done Thomas Blackmore Sworn Peter Pickering Sworn Robert Beddingfield Sworn Thomas Rawlinson Sworn Roger Reeves Sworn Edward Kempe sworn Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. You speak too late he is sworn already Oates My Lord they are so quick I could not speak but he was one of the Grand Jury too L. C. J. We cannot help it now Mr. Att. Gen. I did know that he was so but to shew that we mean nothing but fair we are content to wave him L. C. J. You do very well Mr. Attorney General let him be withdrawn Cl. Cr. Mr. Kempe you may take your case swear Ambrose Isted which was done Henry Collier Sworn Richard Howard Sworn Cl. Cr. Cryer count these Cryer One c. Sir William Dodson Cl. Cr. Richard Howard Cryer Twelve good men and true hearken to the Record and stand together and hear the Evidence The Names of the Twelve sworn were these Jury Sir William Dodson Sir Edmund Wiseman Richard Aley Thomas Fowlis Thomas Blackmore Peter Pickering Robert Beddingfield Thomas Rawlinson Roger Reeves Ambrose Isted Henry Collier and Richard Howard Oates Before the Councel opens the Cause I desire to move one thing to your Lordship L. C. J. What is it you would have Oates My Lord I have three Witnesses that are very material one's to my Defence who are now Prisoners in the King's Bench for whom I moved yesterday that I might have a Rule of Court to bring them up to day but it was objected that they were in Execution and so not to be brought I humbly move your Lordship now that I may have a Habeas Corpus for them to bring them immediately hither L. C. J. We cannot do it Oates Pray Good my Lord they are very material Witnesses for me and I mov'd yesterday for them L. C. J. You did so but we told your Councel then and so we tell you now we cannot do it by Law it will be an escape Oates My Lord I shall want their Testimony L. C. J. Truely we cannot help it the Law will not allow it and you must be satisfied Cl. Cr. Gentlemen you that are sworn of this Jury hearken to the Record by Virtue of an Inquisition taken at Justice Hall in the Old Bayly in the Parish of St. Sepulcher in the Ward of Faringdon without London upon Wednesday the 10th of December in the 36th of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the II. by the grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Before Sir James Smith Knight Mayor of the City of London Sir George Jefferies Knight and Baronet Lord Chief Justice of this Honourable Court Sir Thomas Jones Knight Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas William Montague Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer Sir James Edwards Knight Sir John More Knight Aldermen of the said City Sir Thomas Jenner Knight one of his Majesties Sergeants at Law and Recorder of the same City and others their Companions Justices of Oyer and Terminer by the Oaths of twelve Jurors Honest and Lawful Men of the City of London aforesaid who then and there being sworn and charged to enquire for
the County of Middlesex aforesaid upon the 24th of April in the Year of our Lord 1678. nor did carry any Resolution to murder our said late Lord the King from Chamber to Chamber by any Persons to be signed and so he the aforesaid Titus Oates on the 17th day of Decemb. in the Thirtieth Year aforesaid at the Justice Hall aforesaid in the Court aforesaid upon the Tryal aforesaid upon the Indictment aforesaid between our said late Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove so as aforesaid had by his own proper act and Consent and of his most wicked Mind falsly voluntarily and corruptly in manner and form aforesaid did commit voluntary and corrupt Perjury to the great Displeasure of Almighty God in manifest contempt of the Laws of this Kingdom of England to the Evil and Pernicious Example of all others in like case offending and against the Peace of our said late Soveraign Lord the Knig his Crown and Dignity Upon this Indictment he has been Arraign'd and thereunto hath pleaded not Guilty and for his Tryal hath put himself upon the Country and His Majestie 's Attorney General likewise which Country are you your Charge is to enquire whether the Defendant be guilty of this Perjury and Offence whereof he is now indicted or whether not guilty If you find him Guilty you are to say to if you find him not guilty you are to say so and no more and hear your Evidence Cryer make Proclamation Oates Hold Sir I beg one Favour of your Lordship to give me leave to have that part of the Record wherein I am said to have sworn such and such things read distinctly in Latine L. C. J. Let it be read in Latin Cl. Cr. Juravit jur ' jurat ' predict ' ad tunc et ibidem jurat ' et impanelat ' ad triena exitum predict inter dict' Dn'um nostrum Regem et prefat ' Will'm Ireland Thomam Pickering et Iohannem Grove in Evidentiis dedit quod fuit proditoria Consultatio Anglicae Consult ' Jesuit ' qui Assemblat ' fuer ' apud quandam Tabernam vocat ' the White Horse Tavern in le Strand Le White Horse Tavern in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' innuendo super vicesimum quartum diem April ' Ann. Dom. milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo Octavo ad quam quidere Consultationem Whitebread Fenwick Ireland predict ' Thomam White alias Whitebread Johannem Fenwick et William Ireland innuendo et prefat ' Titus Oates fuer ' present ' et quod Jesuitae predict ' sese separaver ' in seperales minores Conventus quodque Jesuitae predict ' venerunt ad Resolutionem ad murdrand dictum Dn'um Regem et quod ipse idem Titus Oates portavit Resolutionem predict ' a Camera ad Cameram et videbat Resolutionem illam signat ' per ipsos praefat Jesuitas innuendo That is the Perjury that you are said to have sworn Oates Pray go on Sir Ubi revera Cl. Cr. Ubi revera et in predict ' Titus Oates non presens fuit ad aliquam Consultationem Jesuit ' apud le White Horse Tavern predict ' in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' super vicesimum quartum diem Aprilis Anno Domini milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo octavo necportavit aliquam Resolutionem ad d'tum d'num Regem murdrand a Camera ad Cameram per aliquas Perfunas fignand ' Mr. Just Withens Now you have read it go on Sir to make your Proclamation Cl. Cr. Cryer make an Ho-yes Cryen Ho-yes If any one can inform our Soveraign Lord the King the Kings Sergeant the Kings Attorney General or this inquest now taken concerning the Perjury and Offence whereof the Defendant Titus Oates stands Indicted let them come forth and they shall be heard for now he stands upon his Discharge Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Oates My Lord I desire your Lordship and the Court would be of Councel for me in one thing which I take to be a Fault and Error in my Indictment L. C. J. Look you Mr. Oates whatever you have to say of that nature you must not speak to it now you will have your time as to that hereafter in case you be Convicted Oates My Lord I have but one small exception to open to you L. C. J. We are now upon the Fact only Oates My Lord I beg you would give me leave only to tell you of a mistake in the Indictment which I hope when I have opened will satisfie your Lordship that it ought not to be put upon me or the Court to try this Cause or to be sure if there should be a Conviction I hope I may move an Arrest of the Judgement L. C. J. So I tell you you may but not now Oates Good my Lord hear me but a few Words the Indictment charges me to have given such and such Evidence that there was such a Consult of the Jesuites at the White-Horse Tavern in the Strand the 24th of April 1678. that the Jesuites did afterwards divide themselves in several lesser Companies that they came there to a resolution to murder the late King and that I swore that I carryed that Resolution from Chamber to Chamber and saw the Resolution signed by them so the Word is Signat ' now the Perjury assigned is that I was not present at that Consult nor did carry the Resolution from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and there the word is Signand ' now I conceive if Signat ' be the word that is used in setting forth the Oath that I made The Assignment of the Perjury ought to follow that form and the Word there ought to be Signat ' too being Signand ' I take that to be an Error L. C. J. Look that is not proper at this time as I told you at first but withal I do not think there is any great matter in what you say Mr. Att. Gen. Either I do not understand Mr. Oates what he means by the Objection or he will find himself much mistaken in it L. C. J. Well well we have nothing to do with that now go on with the Cause Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury this is an Indictment against Titus Oates for Perjury which Indictment sets forth that Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove the Sixteenth of Dec. in the Thirtieth year of the late King at the Old Baily were indicted of High Treason for conspiring the Death of the King and that Ireland Pickering and Grove were tryed the 17th of Decemb. in that year and upon that Indictment Titus Oates was produced as a Witness on the behalf of the King against the said Ireland Pickering and Grove being sworn to give Evidence to the Jury that were Impanelled and sworn to try that Cause he did swear and give in evidence that there
of Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. But that we are not to take notice of without the Record be brought in Evidence before us we must go according to the course of Law in all Cases Oates Then my Lord I must betake my self to another part of my defence and that is to prove the frequent attempts made to baffle the Discovery of this Popish Plot and to stifle the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and to fling it upon a Protestant Peer L. C. J. But that is no Evidence neither Mr. Just Holloway Surely that is very Collateral Evidence L. C. J. Nay it is no Evidence at all in this Case we must not admit of any such Evidence to be given Oates Good my Lord if this had not been true which was sworn by Witnesses that had discovered the Plot why should these Men appear to suborn Witnesses and they have been Convicted of Subornation and endeavouring to baffle the Discovery particularly as to Justice Godfrey's Death L. C. J. Mr. Oates I must keep you to Evidence that is proper we are upon our Oaths to go according to Law and the Jury are upon their Oaths to Try this Cause according to their Evidence and we are bound to give them this advice in point of Law that nothing must weigh or have any consideration with them that you offer if it be not legal and proper Evidence if you can say and prove that any of the Witnesses that have been produc'd this day against you have been tamper'd with or that they have tamper'd with any of the former Evidence that is a good Evidence against them but it must not be by any means admitted that the time of the Court be taken up or the Jury enveigled by that which has not a natural tendency to the business before us Oates But if your Lordship please this Consult in April 78. was discovered to the House of Commons among the other parts of the Discovery of the Treasons of several Noble Men and Gentlemen now upon the whole discovery of the Plot I would desire that I might give in proof the Proceedings of the House of Commons L. C. J. No no you cannot Oates Pray my Lord is not the Journal of the House of Commons Evidence L. C. J. No we say it is not at all Oates Is that the Opinion of the whole Court my Lord L. C. J. Yes undoubtedly there is no question of it Oates Is any Record of the House of Lords Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you it is and that because it is a Record but there is a vast difference between the Records of the House of Lords and the Journals of the House of Commons Oates The Journals have been delivered in as Evidence before now L. C. J. I cannot tell what they have been but I am sure they ought not to be and whatever they have been elsewhere they cannot be here and I 'le tell you a plain reason for it because they have not so much power in the House of Commons as to give an Oath but the House of Peers is a Court of Record and therefore their Proceedings are Evidence as the Proceedings of the Kings Bench here or any other Court of Record are Oates Then my Lord if that part of my Evidence be over-rul'd before I come to summ up my Evidence I desire to offer this thing My Lord I can produce several Members of the House of Commons in the several Parliaments that can remember how they proceeded against the Lords in the Tower and the Popish Traitors upon my Discovery and what credit I had in the House of Commons Will that be Evidence pray my Lord L. C. J. No it will not if you will produce any one that you told this to before the publick Discovery that may be Evidence such as it is and is often allow'd but what the House of Commons did upon the Discovery that 's not any Evidence at all Oates Then my Lord suppose I can prove that I gave an Early and Timely account to any of the House of Lords of this Conspiracy and did acquaint them with the Consult in April as part of it I desire to know whether in producing any of those Lords I shall give that which is Evidence L. C. J. Call whom you will that you told any thing to that is a sort of Evidence I tell you Oates Then I call my Lord of Devonshire L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Devonshire Oates My Lord I beg your pardon for the trouble I put your Lordship to but your Lordship sees the necessity of it it is for the justification of the Truth to which I will give my Blood for a Seal if I be call'd to it L. C. J. My Lord of Devonshire your Lordship must be sworn which was done Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to acquaint the Court and the Jury your Lordship being at that time a Member of the Commons House what an account I gave there of this particular Consult to keep to that point that is here in question before the Court this day and with what credit I was received in all these Parliaments for my Credit and the Credit of the Parliament is now in question E. of Devonshire My Lord all I can say to it is this you Mr. Oates gave a long account of a Consult and Conspiracy among the Jesuits but I cannot remember any particular it is so long ago L. C. J. Every Body knows this you gave a long Narrative into the House of Commons and House of Lords too Oates Ay and it was a true one but my Lord of Devonshire I desire your Lordship would be pleased to give the Court and the Jury an account with what credit I was received in those Three Parliaments your Lordship sat as Member in E. of Devonshire I remember that the two Westminster Parliaments after the long Parliament were so satisfied with the Discovery that they passed a Vote in the House of Commons L. C. J. The Votes of the House of Commons are no Evidence at all Oates They show what opinion the Parliament was of L. C. J. Many Votes that have been made of late I hope will neither be Evidence for nor put in practice again E. of Devonshire My Lord it is well known to all the World the Vote I speak of L. C. J. Nay my Lord I speak not to your Lordship for we all know those Votes that I speak of were not according to your Lordships mind But we only say thus in General that because the House of Commons cannot give an Oath therefore what is done there is not an Evidence here or in any Court of Record Oates But my Lord that I must urge I do perceive that in the time of Parliament and during the Sitting of the House of Commons Votes have been brought in as Barrs to the Proceedings of Inferior Courts and this Court does not look upon it self as Superior to the Great Court of
that he should E. of Berkley All I can testifie is but what I answered to the question which was asked me at my Lord Stafford's Trial. L. C. J. But that is not material now my Lord because the Record of that Trial is not here E. of Berkley The same thing is entered here particularly Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we desire it may be read again L. C. J. Read it again with all my Heart L. C. J. This is a particular Oath to a particular purpose and shall I help it by intendment that he was afterwards sworn to the general matter No I will not suppose any thing had happen'd afterwards that it should have been thought fit to prosecute Oates Could the Man have been Convicted of Perjury for this certainly he never could Mr. Soll. Gen. Well my Lord we submit it to you but we will now go on to prove that which Mr. Attorney opened that Oates did suborn these Witnesses to swear what they did swear you have had one part of the Evidence that was then given now we shall prove that Clay was sworn at Whitebreads Trial and what he did there testify about Oates being in Town Oates I own it he was sworn then Mr. Att. Gen. Do you own that you suborn'd him Oates No I think not Mr. Attorney Mr. Soll. Gen. Then we will prove that you did tamper with him and by threatnings prevail'd with him to swear for you Mr. Att. Gen. Nay we will prove that he was mistaken in what he did swear a whole Year Pray call Mr. Charles Howard Oates My Lord I desire I may have leave to ask the Court a question and I beg the Opinion of the Court in it whether a Popish Recusant Convicted may be a good Witness L. C. J. We are not bound to answer your question for we see no ground why you should ask it if you have any occasion to object against any Witness and can produce any Record against him then we will tell you more of our minds Oates Pray then let me ask you another question my Lord. L. C. J. Prethee do not trouble us with thy questions let them go on with their Evidence Oates My Lord I desire to know whether a Man confessing himself a Popish Priest L. C. J. We do not sit here to answer every idle question 't is nothing at all to the purpose When you ask a proper question we will answer it Oates Yes it is my Lord and you are of my Council in matter of Law L. C. J. I am not so Oates Yes my Lord the Court is always of Council for the Prisoner L. C. J. That were well indeed if we were bound to give advice in every case where a Man is Prosecuted at the Kings Suit indeed in those cases where a Man can have no Council allow'd him the Court is of Council for him but where he may have Council the Judges are not of Council for him Mr. J. Holloway Besides We are not here putting of Cases but trying of a Cause Mr. Soll. Gen. Here is Mr. Charles Howard swear him which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we bring this Gentleman Mr. Charles Howard only to this part of our Evidence to prove that Mr. Clay was mistaken a whole Year mistook 78 for 77. L. C. J. But Mr. Sollicitor if you take this confused method we shall never be at an end and for my part I cannot make any thing of it it is impossible for me to retain these things in memorie so as to give any direction to the Jury if there be not a method used for do you think that it is possible for any Man to retain in his head a hundred things hudled up and down without any order Mr. Soll. Gen. We beg your Lordships patience but a little while and we shall have it in very good order Swear Higgins which was done L. C. J. Pray what do you ask him Mr. Att. Gen. The matter we examine him to is this for I would open to you the nature of our Evidence 1. He swore Smith into the Plot and then gave him a Certificate that he vvas an honest Man L. C. J. Is that Oates's hand M. Att. Gen. We shall prove it to be so L. C. J. You must first prove vvhat he swore of Smith Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord We desire that vve may read his Narrative L. C. J. But first prove it Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. It is upon Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. Was that delivered in upon Oath to the House of Lords or else vve shall be but vvhere vve vvere Mr. Att. Gen. For proof of that vve call my Lord Bridgewater L. C. J. Here he is swear my Lord which was done Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Bridgewater do you remember the Narrative that Oates gave in to the House of Lords and vvas it upon Oath but first of all if you please I desire my Lord may see the Book whether any thing be there under his hand and then vvhether it be enter'd to be upon Oath and vvhether this be the Journal agreeing with the Paper deliver'd in L. C. J. This is a Narrative my Lord that he himself deliver'd in and I vvould ask my Lord Bridgewater this one question Was not this Journal compar'd vvith the Narrative given in upon Oath by Order of the Lords House E. Bridgewater Yes I must say I was one of the Committe appointed to take care of the Journal and here is my hand to it among other Lords and that is a Copy of what M. Oates did deliver in as his Narrative which was in inserted upon a report of the Committe into the Journal Book by Order of the Lords and we did examine the Narrative with the Book L. C. J. But what is all this to our purpose now do not mistake me my Lord Bridgwater I do not speak to you now but to Mr. Attorney What does this prove as to the matter in hand Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord Bridgwater did you see the Narrative brought in by Oates E. Bridgwater That Narrative was delivered to us by the Clerk of the Parliament L. C. J. But my Lord do you know that Narrative was given in upon Oath E. Bridgwater I know no other but that the Clerk of the Parliament brought it to us Mr. Att. Gen. Here is the Clerk of the Parliament will tell you that Oates was sworn to it L. C. J. Prove it if you can but hitherto I see nothing that looks like Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. Really my Lord I should take it to be as much Evidence as any that ever was offer'd in the World L. C. J. Pray Mr. Attorney let us Reason the Point a little suppose you bring an answer in Chancery except the man be sworn to it can you read his answer and yet I ever look'd upon an answer in Chancery as Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. In that case the Record proves it self and so it should here and therefore we desire
the Jury Oates My Lord I have one thing more and that is A Copy of the Record out of the House of Lords It is in the Journal the twenty fifth of March seventy nine Mr. Walker My Lord I have not the Book here it was not spoke for Oates But do you know this hand Shewing him a Copy Mr. Walker Yes and I Believe it is a true Copy L. C. Justice Read it C. Crown Reads Tuesday the 25 of March 1679. Oates It is the last Clause in the Journal of that day C. Crown Reads Resolved Nemine Contradicente by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled That they do declare that they are fully satisfied by the Proofs they have heard That there now is and for divers years last past hath been a Horrid and Treasonable Plot and Conspirary contrived and carried on by those of the Popish Religion for the Murthering of his Majestie 's Sacred Person and for subverting the Protestant Religion and the Ancient and Established Government of this Kingdom Oates There is an Order to have that Vote printed and inserted before the Form of Prayer for the Fast 'Pray' Sir read the next Page Cl. Crown Reads Die Lunae 25. Oct. 1680. Vpon Report from the Lords Committees for examining matters relating to the discovery of the late Horrid Plot and Conspiracy That Captain Thomas Bickley hath lately vilified Dr. Titus Oates at a publick meeting at Chichester to the prejudice of his Majestie 's Evidence for the further discovery of the said Plot It is thereupon ordered by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled That the Said Thomas Bickley be and is hereby required to appear before their Lordships in the Lord Privy-Seals Lodgings near the house of Peers on Wednesday the third day of November next at eight of the Clock in the forenoon And it is further ordered that Alderman Exon and Alderman William Bury of Chichester aforesaid who were then present at the said meeting do likewise attend their Lordships at the time aforesaid to give Evidence of what they know concerning this Matter L. C. Justice What of all this we know hereupon Bickley was turned out of Commission and now Bickley is in again But it seems as you had credit with some then so you had not with others Well have you done now all Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. If Mr. Oates will Summ up his Evidence then I will do the same for the King when he has done L. C. Justice Well what say you Mr. Oates Oates Now my Lord here is an Indictment preferr'd against me for Perjury and the Evidence they have given for the King is this 1. They have call'd Mr. Foster and he tells you that I was produced at the Sessions-house in the Old Baily where he was summon'd as a Jury man upon the Trial of Ireland and he says That when I was produc'd at the Sessions in the Old Baily as a Witness and sworn if I do remember Mr. Foster aright in what he says he did hear me swear That there was a Treasonable Consult of Jesuits upon the twenty fourth of April 78. at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand and he does further say That I said those Jesuits afterwards came to a Resolution to kill the King and that they separated themselves into lesser Clubs the Resolution being drawn up by one Mico and that I carryed it from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and did see it signed My Lord I did ask Mr. Foster Whether I in my Evidence called it a Consult or a Traiterous Consult Now my Lord 't is true I did call it a Traiterous Consult it is as true that I did swear there was such a Consult and it is as true that I did swear this Consult did divide it self into lesser Companies it is as true that I did say I did carry that Resolution about from Chamber to Chamber and saw them sign that Resolution for murdering the King I do not mean of this King but of the late King My Lord the Evidence I think I nor no honest man shall need to be asham'd of I am not ashamed to own that I repeated this Evidence several times nor that I gave that Evidence upon Oath for it is Truth my Lord and nothing but Truth and I resolve by the Grace of God to stand by it and confirm it with my Blood if there be occasion My Lord to Convict me of Perjury they have brought a parcel of St. Omers Witnesses and these do swear that which they would have sworn six years ago but then the Court thought them not fit to be sworn not only because the Law will not allow them but because of their Religion that can dispense with false Oaths if it were for a good Cause and that was the Remark my Lord C. Justice Scroggs then made of it I shall not insist much upon what they have sworn for that I suppose your Lordship and the Jury do very well Remember But I have five things to Object to their Evidence and I hope the Jury will take notice of my Objections and make their Remarks upon them for since you have heard the Evidence that is brought against me it will be necessary for your Lordship to weigh the nature of these Witnesses and the Value that the several Juries of London and Middlesex had for them 'T is true there are several brought here now that never were Witnesses before there are indeed other men but of the same Religion and the same Interest and therefore their Testimony must be of the same Value I think your Lordship will allow me that Therefore I Begin with their Religion and that I take notice to be a great Objection to their Evidence as I am advis'd by those that are Learned in the Law And I must appeal to the Court whether a Papist in Case of Religion may be believed and received as a good Witness L. C. Justice We must nor hear any of these Idle Expressions Mr. Just Withens Do you think you are come here to preach Mr. Oates L. C. Justice I 'll tell you a Papist except you 'll prove any Legal Objection against him is as good a Witness in a Court of Record as any other Person whatsoever Oates But if your Lordships I 'll tell you my Lord Cook 's practice was not to admit them as good Witnesses L. C. Justice Do not tell me of my Lord Cook 's practice the Law is otherwise keep to the Business that you have here in hand the Question before us Whether you were forsworn in Ireland's Trial or not Answer that if you can but you must not run out into Clamors and idle Extravagances Oates My Lord I demand it as my Right to be heard what I have to except against the witnesses L. C Justice I tell you you shall be heard when you speak properly But are you to determine what is Right or what is Wrong Oates I am to