Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	court_n	ecclesiastical_a	king_n	2,936	5	4.6101	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

which as things stand will rather hinder then help Now for our auncient lawes which our Deuine sayth are not against a Catholique Episcopal tribunal not according to the meaning of the Law-maker howsoeuer it may be against the sound of the words I say first that as times stand it is enough to be against the letter of the Law our Protestant Iudges and men in Authority who thinke themselues fittest to be interpreters of the Law will haue great aduātage against vs if they shal be able by the very words of the aunciēt lawes to bring vs with in compasse of Treason or Premunire And if now by word writing they publish to the world that we dy not for Religion but for Treason although we suffer but by the lawes made in this time of Protestancy how much more colourably would they thinke to do it whē we shall suffer by the auncient Lawes made and practised in Catholique tymes and not disallowed or contradicted by the Sea Apostolique And it may be this very thing if it had been so knowne to his Holines as the Catholiks Letter saith well for it is no disparagement for any man to say that he doth not know all particular Lawes and Ordinances of all Countryes it is most probable his Holines would neuer haue put the Catholiques into any the least occasion of such offence especially being a thing wholy needlesse at this time Secondly a man may perhaps also say it is against the meaning of the law in some sort For though it were neuer the meaning of our Catholique Auncestors to hinder the lawfull exercise of Ordinary Ecclesiasticall power yet their end was as this Deuine confesseth to restrayne the exercise of extraordinary power or Legatiue by reason of the disturbance which it did many times cause in the vsuall courts of Iustice of this kingdome Why then may not a mā say they meane of such power as my Lord Bishop would haue heere considering the presēt state of things For heere be now vsual Ecclesiastical courts of Ordinaries or Bishops but they are Protestāt Bishops say you I graunt it but yet in their Courts they retaine the same forme of iustice in great part the same kinds of causes they had aunciently and though it be true that they haue not true Ecclesiastical iurisdiction as being Branches cut of from the roote which is the Sea Apostolique yet they exercise it de facto by the Kings authority so as all both Protestants and Catholiques must be subiect vnto them so much as concerneth the outward gouerment or forum externum Now my Lord Bishops Authority in this case suppose it Ordinary for the present for disputatiōs sake is of no lesse hinderance or disturbance to the Ordinary Courts and course of Iustice then was Legatiue in ancient times nay more for the Legatiue court was a Superiour court and therfore did not medle in Ordinary and dayly matters but in some particuler cases and euents Whereas my Lord Bishops Court if he were Ordinary would answere ex aequo as I may say and directly to the Ordinary spirituall Courts heer and might challenge the hearing and determining of all causes as due to it selfe excluding the other as vsurper In which respect I thinke that as this Deuine sayth the law-makers neuer intended to hinder the restitution of Catholique Episcopall iurisdiction so I am of opinion with him thus farre though they would not hinder it when tyme should be for it so yet that in such tyme and circumstances as now we are in and so long as it were not in their power to hinder but that Protestants should b●are the sway as they do they would neuer haue lyked the restitution of it in such manner as his Lordship desireth To which though I am the rather induced by considering how the Catholique Bishops who in Queene Maryes time exercised their Authority and kept their courts vpon the suppression of Religion and their Authority and the substitution of others in their place forbare the exercise thereof as hurtful rather then any way vsefull nay euen impossible Thirdly not to stand guessing what would haue been the mind of the Law-makers in this particular case suppose my Lord of Chalcedon were Ordinary heer to come to the true playne meaning of the Law which this our Deuine acknowledgeth to wit that by it is forbidden the exercise of a legatiue tribunal I say this law precisely and directly toucheth his Lordships Court which he would erect For though be not a legate à latere yet he is a Delegate of the Sea Apostolique and his power is of the same kinde with Legatiue though inferiour vnto it And this is manifest by the words of his owne Letter saying he is Ordinarius not Ordinario modo but extraordinario modo as Legats Nuncio's and the like though he be not yet so truly Ordinary as any of them whose power is expressed in the Canon Law his Lordships power being wholy out of the Commō Course Therfore the law is much more against it then against the power of a Legate Secondly the very manner of conferring the Authority by speciall Commission doth manifestly shew him to be a Delegate for that is proper to Delegation Thirdly he hath his Iurisdiction ad beneplacitum which is essentiall to Delegation But what need I stand further prouing so manifest a thing whē as both his commission hath the expresse word Delegamus and his Holines his Nuncio of Paris in a Letter vnder his owne hand speaking of my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons Breue sayth Delegationis suae Breue sufficienter ostendit c. by word of mouth he did not only tell diuers that will iustify it that my Lord was not Ordinary but proued also by the Cannons that he could not be Ordinary His Lordships Power then being rather Legatiue then Ordinary and euen not that legatiue which is expressed in iure and whose power in that respect is called Ordinary because it is belonging to the office of a legate by law it is plaine that the ancient Law doth properly touch his Lordships power and Tribunall For suppose when Englād was Catholique a man had come in hither all the Bishopricks being ful with such a speciall title and commission and chalenging such Authority heere as his Lordship now doth what would other Bishops say In what Ordinary Tribunall should he sit Must he not erect himselfe a new one Nay suppose his Lordship should haue byn Bishop of Canterbury and one come in as he doth Bishop of Chalcedon by speciall Commission would not his Lordship think that man to offend against this ancient law in such a case And whosoeuer should acknowledg or submit himselfe to such Authority liable to the penalty there appointed Certainly he would And why not then in this case You will say now there be no Catholique Ordinaries as thē there would be What then say I againe Doth that alter my Lord of Chalcedons Authority Doth not that remaine the same

we aymed at by adioyning this Declaration In the meane tyme seeing for diuers respects we haue not the freedom to present our selues in person hūbly to lay downe our owne Cause before his Holines we beseech those Catholiks who are lyke to fynd freer accesse vnto him and who shall light vpon these wrytings to be intercessours for vs vnto his Holines that he will vouchsafe to expresse his mind and giue sentence of this controuersy which we now haue with the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon to the end all occasions of further scandall dissention may be entierly cut off quyte remoued as we hope they will if his Holynes will be pleased to giue it in such a manner as his resolution may be publickely diuulged and openly made knowne to all For if it be only expressed in priuate ech party may eyther affirme or deny what they thinke good so that the strife begun will rather take increase by that meanes then be any whit extinguished as experience hath cleerly taught vs hitherto Moreouer we most earnestly crau● that in our behalfe they will humbly beseech his Holines not to resolue of any thing in this busines wherby our King● most Excellent Maiestyes indignation may be prouoked against vs or we brought yet further into his displeasure Lastly we intreat them not to censure or condemne these our proceedings with disparagment to our honour esteeme seeing we haue alwaies yet byn ready as the whole world may witnesse to lay downe with all humility our very liues fortunes whensoeuer a iust cause for the defence of our faith shall require it REASONS GIVEN to Monsieur de Chasteau-neuf Embassadour Extraordinary of the most Christian King to shew that the Authority of a Catholike Ordinary heere in England is incompatible with this tyme place FIrst we professe in the sight of God that from our harts we reuerence Episcopal Authority as knowing it to be Gods institution and that we vnfaynedly wish the times were such as we might submit our selues therūto whatsoeuer hath byn sayd of vs to the contrary is very slanderous In the next place we do with al reuerence and humility declare that according to the lawes and state of this Kingdome as now they are we conceaue that the authority and iurisdiction of an Ordinary is not only inconuenient and vnusefull but impossible to be executed so dangerous to be obeyed nay euen acknowledged as that we cannot be obliged thereunto And we do verily belieue that vpon many and weighty reasons whatsoeuer hath byn affirmed to the contrary that his Holynes hath had no intention to oblige vs vnto it nor will after information how things stand heere There are heere many Statutes of the Kingdome in force which make it highly penall in some cases with losse of goods liberty and in others of life to acknowledge any other Authority or Iudicature then such as by the same statuts are authorized which though we are obliged not to regard when there is question of any doctrine of fayth yet when a man shall run hazard of vtter ruine for admitting and acknowledging of externall iurisdiction and authority which importeth not faith but practise of things not necessary but according to tyme and place we conceaue that we cannot be obliged to imbrace it If it be sayd that it is Capitall for a man to receaue a Catholique Priest into his house and that yet many receaue them with all the hazard and that therefore we might aswell receaue an Ordinary into our houses acknowledging his Authority The answere will make it appeare that the obiection proueth nothing agaynst vs. For first it is certayne that euen for the reason of being so Capitall and that there are so many lamentable examples among vs not only of friends who haue discouered and betraied other friends for receauing Priests eyther for interest licentiousnesse of lyfe reuenge frailty or for some other passion but of Seruants who haue betrayed their Maysters Nephews Vncles Grandchildren children their Parents Daughters their very Mothers yea and euen Priests themselues sometymes who haue fallen and betrayed Catholikes we neyther are nor can by any humane authority be obliged to take Priests into our houses Many of vs indeed do it out of deuotion and zeale for the comfort of our soules by celebrating Masse and receauing the most necessary and daily Sacraments and many of vs also do it not But howsoeuer we thinke it a very ill consequence to inferre that therefore a man is or may be obliged with the hazard of his estate of lyfe to acknowledge or submit to the Authority of an Ordinary for the practise of some thinges without which we yet finde by experience and Gods grace we haue alwayes subsisted in these sad tymes because forsooth out of voluntary deuotion zeale many of vs are contēt to run the highest hazards in receauing of Priests for the so necessary and dayly exercise of our Religion through want whereof we also find by experience of Saxony Denmark and many other countries in Germany Religion hath in effect wholy fayled Besides a Priest who is a Person of our owne election being first authorized as fit and capable by the Sea Apostolicke may haue entrance into our houses and exercise his function in a much more priuate and safe manner then it is possible for an Ordinary to doe especially when he will carry himselfe as Ordinary For in that case besides seruants there must be alwayes Officers parties and witnesses who do not all and euer vow so much as discretion or yet to continue constant in the Catholicke fayth And for our parts the dangers being such as they are it will be impossible to secure vs in this poynt where sometymes it happeneth that an vndiscreet word vttered euen without ill meaning may turne to our losse of goods and life Besides if we could abstract from the danger of offending the State it is to be considered that our Mariages and Testaments and the lyke are made lyable heere to those Ecclesiasticall Courts and Tribunals which are setled by the lawes of this Kingdome and are executed by certayne Chancellours and Commissaries for that purpose who may often oblige and sentence vs in the affirmatiue whereas a Catholike Ordinary or Iudge would perhaps do it in the negatiue and so we should be tossed betweene two ●ockes Agayne if a Catholicke Ordinary should p●onounce any sētence at which the party might be grieued which must needs occurre somtimes his final remedy would be an appeale to Rome which yet it would be Capitall for him to make besides the charge of prosecuting such a suite and the impossibility for the most part of vs so much as to send or write to a place so distant and so contradicted by the State heere for the bringing of such a suite to an end And to shew both the inconueniences and impossibilities of executing the power of a Catholicke Ordinary in such a