established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
them worthy of hate for that hauing taught that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word they now teach that all that holde so be hereticks But he doth vs wrong for charging vs to say that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word the word Episcopus presbyter in scriptures is commonly vsed for one but we speake english call those that rule bishops and others priests which distinction we find plainly in scriptures and therefore holde the teachers of equality to be Aerians confounders of gouernment to be iustly condemned not only by Epiphanius but also by Augustine yea by the consent of all the fathers that distinguish priests into 2 sorts giuing the name of bishop to those that rule and priest to the second that are ruled And therefore most sencelesse is their reason that because they haue all one name will conclude of it aequalitie of all ministers For magistrates teachers subiectes haue all one name and yet are diuided into diuers degrees In vaine therfore doth the libeller bring proofes that the words presbyter episcopus are commonly taken for one for that notwithstāding there may be difference of degrees howsoeuer they wil answere this obiection yet is it apparant that the same ouerthroweth as I said their consistorial aldermen Away thē with the new church aldermen those heretikes that mainteine them for albeit Epiphanius erred in accompting them heretikes that prayed not for the dead yet is the same no reason to shew he erred in this which not only Augustine mainteineth but all the Fathers also not only they but the foure general counsels which this land approueth so that by the lawes of Englād they are heretiks that hold the equality of ministers what shameles dealing thē was this for the libeller to alledge the Syriake interpreter or Chrysostome or Ambrose or Theodoret whē no one speaketh for equality euery one defendeth degrees in the ministers of the word but the word cashisha saith he comprehēdeth both bishop priest what thē so doth a liuing creature comprise men beasts yet are not both equal in dignity neither doth it help him that the order of priesthood cōpriseth both bishops priests for it doth not take away the dignity of some aboue others what needed then so many names of Wicleffe Marsilius of Padua Luther Bullinger Iewel Melancthon others that speake as we do or Caluin his fellowes that speaketh against al antiquity or what needed this compagnion to muster so many names either of protestant churches seeing they were not of Caluins opiniō or of papists seing we do not follow Bellarmin Stapleton or papists but antiquity that speaketh as we doe Neither doth it follow Chrysost Hierom Augustin in 4. ad Ephes that the ecclesiasticall state is to be maliced for teaching that Pastor and Doctor are all one for so hath all antiquity taught and their interpretation by all antiquitie is confirmed Neither is it material what Caluin Beza Daneau Bertrand de loques Villiers and other say to the contrarie seing they talke contrary to antiquity reason and all practise Finally their owne practise and diuers reasons stand against Doctors which neither the libeller nor his mates make any haste to answere The exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Math. 20.25 is most absurdly forced by these compagnions to make against superior degrees in the ministery for that the apostles notwitstanding Christs prohibition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were superiour to other degrees of ministers And very absurd it were if Christ should suffer tyrants to oppresse the people and forbid lawfull authoritie to the ministers by which also would fall the authoritie of the consistorie and ministers liue without controlment And therefore as long as these fellowes interprete against all scripture antiquitie and reason yea and themselues too it skilleth not what they say against superiour degrees Against which Luther Zuinglius Melancthon Caluin Bullinger and the rest are most peruersely alledged They say and so likewise Iewell Sadeel Bridges Bilson Whitakers and others say that bishops as bishops may not take vpon them the rule of kingdomes nor rule with force like Princes But who is so simple as to cōclude hereof that one minister may not rule another as these fellowes doe But suppose some of our learned men should interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then Caluin hath done must all the clergie suffer for one mans not yeeelding to Caluins fancie Or because some denie that soueraigne princes may be excommunicate defending therein the soueraigntie of princes against the rebellious Papists and Puritans must therefore the Ecclesiasticall state bee dissolued nothing is more absurde for herein as the aduersaries deserue punishment so our men deserue speciall commendation in confuting the seditious doctrine of factious persons They also consent flatly with the Papists in denying the princes supremacy in making lawes iudging of ecclesiastical matters or appointing others to iudge them diuers other points neither can the libeller seuer their opinions from thē for first it is false that he saith that the Papists exempt their clergy in ciuill causes from the princes iurisdiction or that the consistorials do giue authoritie to the prince to deale with their consistories pastors in ecclesiasticall causes so long as they iudge they haue done well themselues for they take the dealing therein from the prince and giue power of deposition to their eldership And as the consistorials say that the prince may enforce their cōsistories making wicked decrees to make better which taking the iudgement of those matters from princes I see not how they can well do so the papists wil haue the prince not only to reforme ministers but the pope himselfe also Si Papa sit incorrigibilis Imperator potest procedere contra ipsum saith 1 Heruaeus de potest papae c. 13. Heruey papa potest accusaricoram Imperatore saith 2 Zabarel lib. de schism concil Zabarel The papists confesse that princes may make lawes with the aduise of the pope as these confesse he may with the aduise of the consistory They confesse that the prince may take order where the Pope is incorrigible as these say where their pastors are wicked and vngodly therfore the libeller doth nothing but fable where he would seuer the cōsistorials from papists but what should we looke for other at his hands seeing he is not ashamed to say that the consistorials wil subscribe to the apology of the church of England and the articles of religion authorised and published by parliament which deny the degrees of the ministery and oppugne them which are confirmed both by the apology and by articles of religion professed in this church Lastly they take exception against vs for that we teach that the best 1 All the ancient Fathers and of late writers Melancthon Luther and of others the best writers are against the eldership as if it were not proued by
some mē that deale modestly a cloake to couer seditious persōs that deale factiously maliciously The lawes canōs which he mētioneth are vtterly mistakē Behold I pray you the mās simple skil first saith he there is a 2 32. q.r.c. apud law that womē should not sue their husbāds for adultery But in the place he quoteth there is no such matter nay which is worse Gratiā whō he quoteth hath no authority of law In that place there is mētion made that the womā shal not accuse her husband for adultery to haue him put to death which this wisard vnderstood not but thought thē to be forbiddē to sue their husbands for adultery But the 1 Gloss ibid. glosse telleth him that the contrary of that is law and the practise of ecclesiasticall courtes is contrary and so hath alwayes bene and many at this day doe sue their husbands in causes of diuorce for adultery The 2. 2 24. q. 2. c. vlt. Canon which he citeth and affirmeth to be contrary to Gods lawe is that heretikes after their death shoulde bee excommunicate But first it doth not appeare that it is lawe with vs. for as I haue already told him Gratian is no law So that I cannot but wonder what blockish conceite came into this mans distempered braine to talke of canon law that knoweth not what is law Besides it doth not appeare that this was practised before the statute of 25. H. 8 19. lastly the same is not cōtrary to Gods word for to the memory of wicked heretikes such as Arrius Eutyches Nestorius Macedonius Paulus of Samosata we say Anathema And if the libeller say not so he is a looser companion then I tooke him for The 3. Canon that he 3 30. q. 3. c. pitatium affirmeth to be cōtrary to Gods law and not to ours is that spirituall kindred shal hinder mariage But both is the same direct cōtrary to our lawes that only respect the degrees of cōsanguinity affinity such like as are mentioned in Leuit. not to Gods law where they list to vse it we allow no degrees of kinred to hinder mariage but such as are noted in Leuiticus Nor is it an offence against Gods lawe for some ciuil or domestical cause other then degrees of kindred to forbid mariage for some time with some persons And therefore they of 4 Ordonances de Geneue Geneua albeit they account the mariage of cosins germaine lawful yet thinke them not conuenient He alledgeth also certain canons that enioyne Clearks to fast 7 whole weekes before Easter forbid them to fast on thursday But that they were vsually obserued in England before that statute he sheweth not Neither doth he rightly quote the places So that if these malecōtent disciplinariās meane to speake hereafter against ecclesiasticall lawes they must sende vs foorth some wiser man then this libeller to speake in their cause for hee is but a simple fellowe to dispute and vnderstandeth iust nothing in lawe and very little in honestie That in king Henry and king Edwardes dayes order was taken for the collection together of lawes in vse is granted but that they meant to correct lawes in vse which this libeller doeth insinuate or did confesse that there be infinite corruptions in ecclesiasticall lawes which he affirmeth cannot be proued I will not longer stand vpon this point for that I haue spoken of it already and the same is beside the libellers purpose which should proue that Vdall and his consortes offend not against the statute of Eliz. 23. aboue mentioned But his reasons are all too weake for eyther stand they vpon false groundes or else are they mis-shapen and euil featured That which he saith of Wickleffe Suinderby Tindall Hooper Barnes Latimer and others whom he chargeth with speaking against the state of the Church and common wealth is vtterly vntrue let the places be shewed and their wordes set downe For in these that already are brought forth there is no such matter conteined they doe not call our lawes antichristian nor disgrace the gouernement of the prince nor condemne the superioritie of bishops nor raile at the preachers of the Gospel and gouernors of Christes church they neuer framed libels nor inuectiues against the state nor euer sought to haue a new found gouernement established in the church and albeit they inueigh against the manners of men and corruptions of those times yet shall you not finde any that hath written in Martins satyrical and doogeon stile nor that sought to haue either Church or state turned vpside-downe or committed to the direction of the common sorte compare them with these late rimers libellers and firebrands of sedition you shall see a wonderfull difference Further saith he some finde fault with the forfeiture of traytors landes some with the short returne of writs others with pluralities of fermes and engrossing of Mannors others with racking of rents and diuers other lawes and customes admit they did yet is not the fact of one an excuse for the offence of others we liue by lawes not by examples But it cannot be shewed that any euer so raged with malice against lawes as the Martinists did and doe those percase spake against some one or two lawes and that modestly submitting themselues to the controlement of their superiors they railed not against gouernors nor lanced them with malicious libels nor sought innouation but redresse of things disordered to all these examples therefore of Wickleffe Suinderby Hooper Barnes Latimer and those that haue found fault with some abuses in lawe I answere first that it is one thing to desire the reformation of some one abuse and another to desire the subuersion both of all ecclesiastical gouernors and lawes which cannot be without a dangerous innouation of state secondly that the course of the proceeding of those that haue spoken against mens manners and some one lawe is farre different from these mens doings and writings that striue for the new kingdome of the Consistorie lastly that Wickleffe Suinderby Tyndal Barnes Hooper Latimer spake against the corruptions of papisticall Bishops both in doctrine and manners yet neuer did they seeke for a new consistorial gouernement nor did they libell against the gouernors the lawes the state This is but the Consistorian stile lately founde out and practised by lewde lozels and satyricall backebiters of good men for which if no other punishment be laid on them yet they shall surely answere at the last dreadfull day if they repent and amend not Further it is a shamefull course though greatly pleasing these mens humors to take that which good men spake against pompous and tyrannicall Bishops that gouerned at pleasure and gaue ouer preaching altogether and to apply the same against Pishops that neither so excell in wealth but that many base scriuanos and marchants yea shoemakers and taylors surpasse thē nor in power but that meane companions abuse them are not popish tyrants but preachers of the
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
or any other offend it doeth decree them to be punished if they be caught Neither haue they wrong that are depriued of their ecclesiasticall liuings for their first offence in deprauing the Communion booke For the statute doeth not onely authorize ciuile Iudges to proceede ciuillie but also ecclesiasticall Iudges to proceede to depriuation according to ecclesiasticall lawes But this companion either did not reade the statute or would not report it for then his falshood should haue appeared and his calumniation in leauing a prouiso out of the statute should haue bene reproued Concerning the Communion booke I say it is not materiall what either Bristowe or this Put-case saith of it being both enemies of the state and lying without reason and conscience The puritans haue gone about to reforme it but their new booke is such as they may be greatly ashamed of it being full of false doctrine and fauouring a fond and loose gouernement and fraught with most vaine discourses and verball speeches Quaere Putcase Quest 21. whether adulterie is to be punished by the Ordinarie seeing the punishmēt thereof without any sauing to the spiritual court is giuen by statute to Iustices of peace and whether a man may be punished by two corporall or pecuniarie punishments in two seuerall Courtes for one and the same cause The put-case tryeth himselfe to be a very proper fellow Answere to become a procter speaker in the behalfe of adulterers fornicators Percase it concerneth him neerer then I am aware of but let him against the next time vnderstand the case better that he speaketh in For it is a shame for a procter in these cases not to vnderstand the difference betwixt adulterie fornicatiō and also to say that the lawe giueth the punishement of adultery to Iustices only for in that statute there is not so much as mentiō of adulterie but of bastardy And how bastards may be gottē in lawful wedlocke he wil hardly define considering the Common law which saieth that all children borne in matrimonie the husband being Intra quatuor maria are lawfull For my part so that adulterie and fomication bee punished seuerely I doe not care That the statute doeth not hinder the ecclesiastical Iudges proceeding it is euident for that there is no clause to annull his course neither is it the intendement of the statute to fauour such lewde persons But saith he it is no reason that one should be punished both in the ecclesiasticall ciuill courts for one fault wherein he doth not only contrarie vs but Th. Cartwright also who giueth the cognition of felonies and treasons to his newe consistorie and would haue offenders herein to acknowldge their faultes there also which is directlie contrarie to the statute lawes To answere his question I deny that offenders which are for incontinencie cōuented are twise punished for one fault for both the Ecclesiasticall and ciuile court make vp their full punishment Neither doe they against lawe that for reasonable causes the partie consenting do commute the penance This I wot if the ecclesiastical Iudges would deale as some Iustices of peace haue done in this case that fornication such matters should for the most part passe without examination or controlement Quaere if any Ordinaries haue contriued promulgued Putcase Quest 22. and published Articles in his own name without assent of her maiestic vnder seale and inforced her highnes subiectes to subscribe vnto the same and for not subscribing haue suspended or depriued them whether an Ordinarie thus doing 25. H. 8. c. 19. 1. Eliz. c. 1. may not be imprisoned and fined at the Queenes pleasure If the Put-case would haue made any inquirie Answere whether Th. Cartwright his fellowes haue offended against the statute prohibiting the making of ecclesiasticall Canons hee might haue found it out easily For the acts are euery where extant their doings knowen And yet are they not fined nor al of them imprisoned for it Neither do the ecclesiasticall Ordinaries refuse to bee punished if they can bee conuicted of any such notorious offence The subscriptions which haue bene required were no newe lawes as these fellowes conceaue but confirmations and allowances of the olde yet nothing hath bin herein done but by allowance As for the proceedinges vsed against the Consistorialls they haue bene most milde and gentle not for denyall of subscription as this man pretendeth but for other factious seditious and lewde behauiour obiected to them and remayning in record whose cause let him moue as oft as he will yet shall he neuer haue honor by it Quaere Putcase Quest 23.24 25. whether an Ordinarie may cite a man to appeare before him in his court to depose as witnesse c. Item whether a man shall be examined by othe of any thing that soundeth to his reproch c. Item whether if an Ordinary cite men Ex officio to sweare to accuse themselues in causes neither Matrimoniall nor Testamentary a prohibition wil lie against him or not Item whether the cause depending in the Starre chamber the Ecclesiastiall Iudges shoulde not cease their proceedings And last of all whether the Iudges and wisest lawyers doe not condemne the proceedings of prelates To most of this I haue already spoken Answere and doubt not but therby there appeareth neither reasō nor honestie nor law nor ought else saue malice in this demaundants questions Yet thus much I answere further First that if the Iudge could not call witnesses before him there would bee no triall nor proofe in matters of doubt Secondly that in diuers criminall causes both Gods lawes and the lawes of this realme doe require that the partie answere vpon his othe Thirdly that there lyeth no prohibition for that the Ordinarie dealeth in causes orderly and according to warrant of lawe Neither is it reason that the Ecclesiasticall Iudges should cease doing of iustice against all the perturbers of this Church because there was sometimes one matter depending in the Starre-chamber against some fewe of them For where the ecclesiasticall Iudge is prohibited to proceede in one cause yet doth he notwithstanding proceede in others of like nature concerning other parties Much rather then ought they to proceede not being prohibited and in cases that are diuerse especially now that the cotumacious dealing of the Puritans is by the iudgement of the reuerend Iudges and most sufficient lawers in England condemned and the cause now dismissed the courte and diuers consultations brought after prohibitions graunted out of some courts in that cause Neither doe I thinke that either maister Cooke a man too learned not to knowe and two wise to fauour such perturbers of the state as the seare or any Iudge or learned lawyer wil condemne the proceedings of ecclesiasticall courtes in these cases as being contrary to lawe The writte in the Register which seemeth to giue leaue to Ordinaries to sweare men in causes Testamentarie and Matrimoniall is proued to be miscōstrued
perceiue we shall haue a new booke of counsels to frame a new consistory withall to put the blame from himselfe he putteth it on Illyricus as true a quoter of textes almost as euer was Th. Cartwr his scholler but suppose that which 1 Catal. test veritat pag. 121. Illyricus hath of this counsell were true yet can not the wordes of the counsell be interpreted against bishops for suppose that a bishop may not be a King or Prince and that the callings be distinct yet may hee haue episcopall iurisdiction against which that counsell is alledged To helpe his aray of counsels hee bringeth in a supply of Fathers but very vnlike it is that they should speake against counsels being diuers of them chiefe doers in diuers counsels and therefore let him take heede least while hee mustereth the names of Fathers against bishops the men themselues doe not all fight against him That Cyprian is contrary to his allegation it is notorious for he establisheth the dignitie of bishops and vtterly ruinateth the cause of the new come gentlemen called Church-aldermen Hee subiecteth the whole 2 Lib. 1. ep 3. brotherhoode to the bishop and sayth that the same obedience is according to the commaundements of God The same authoritie is confirmed by the letters of the clergie of Rome to Cyprian Post Fabiani 3 Lib. 2. ep 7. excessum say they non est constitutus à nobis episcopus qui omnia ista moderetur He giueth to bishops the 4 Lib. 3. ep 9. succession of the Apostles and from no 5 Lib. 4. ep 9. lib. 1. ep 3. other roote doeth hee suppose heresies and schismes to spring then from contempt of the authoritie of Bishoppes So shamelesse is this Libeller to alledge Cyprian against bishops that in the places aboue named yea and in the 6 Lib. 3. ep 10. places by him quoted doth confirme their authoritie For albeit Cyprian doeth say that from his first entrance into his charge hee had determined to doe nothing but by the consent of the people and counsell of his Clergie yet doeth it not make against his superioritie nay it confirmeth it rather For with vs Bishops may doe nothing without lawe which is a most certaine consent nay good Princes rule by counsell and Lawes and yet they will not denie but that Princes in all places and Bishops with vs haue a superiour aucthoritie ouer those that are committed to them And Cyprian in that selfe same Epistle writing to the priestes and Deacons vseth these woordes I 1 Hortor mando exhorte and commaund yea further hee prescribed what was to bee done both concerning the poore and confessors and 2 Vice mea fungamini circagerenda quae religiosa administratio deposcit made a deputation to others that were to gouerne in his absence as much or rather more then bishops may with vs take vpon them to doe Likewise in the 14 Epistle of his thirde booke alledged also against bishops there are found manifest argumentes for their authoritie For hee reprehendeth the presumption of certaine Ministers too rash in reconciling those that had fallen and declareth vnto them that the Bishop is 3 Ep. 14. episcopus ipsis praepositus set ouer them and that their place is vnder the bishop of which 4 Loci sui immemores they were vnmindfull that the bishops duetie was to 5 Vt instructi à praepositis faciant omnia instruct them and their dutie to obey him It is euident that this author was not much acquainted with Cyprian that alledgeth him thus cōtrary to his meaning which is most childish and absurd quoteth the 27 epistle of Cyprians 3 booke where there are onely 15 epistles there In 6 Lib. 1. ep 9. another place Cyprian reprehendeth a certaine minister being apointed gardein to orphans executor of a testament but how the same may be drawen to make against the estate of bishops I vnderstand not for bishops among vs desire no such matter as that which Cyprian cōdemneth neither came it euer in Cyprians meaning to condemne the authoritie of Bishops as it is vsed in this Realme If hee speake against any it is especially against T. C. for albeit he be a Minister as he sayth himselfe yet refused he not the execution of his brother Stubbes his will no nor refuseth the gouernment of his Hospitall and therefore this fellowe seemeth vnwise thus deepely to lanch his deare brother T.C. whose purchases and purloynings hee hath taken on him to defend where in the meane while the state of Bishops for any thing Cyprian sayth standeth inviolable nay in the same place their iurisdiction is confirmed for Cyprian being a Bishop taketh on him to reforme Ministers and giueth bishops 1 Episcopi antecessores nostri censuerunt c. sacerdotum decretum authoritie to make ecclesiasticall lawes which pearceth the Church-aldermen that long for superioritie to the very heart Finally he taketh on him to punish disorders then which authoritie what can be greater 2 Dist 10. c. quoniā idem Gratian also extolleth Bishops aboue Princes so farre is hee from speaking against Bishoppes or their authoritie so that to alledge Gratian for proofe is as much as to vse corrosiues for pleasant medicines Neither doth it take away or diminish the authoritie and state of Bishoppes that by the Canons they may not encroche vpon the Princes authoritie in Ciuill causes for wee say that the vocation of Magistracie and ministerie is distinct and that Bishoppes in England doe not in respect they are ministers meddle with Ciuil causes but as they are subiects and are commanded Wherein they doe not shewe themselues busie in encrochments in taking on them charges imposed but shoulde shewe themselues disloyall persons at least no good subiects if they shoulde refuse them the consistoriall faction contrariwise doeth encroche both vpon Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernours hauing authoritie from neither and intrude themselues where no man sendeth for them or admitteth them After Cyprian Tertullians 3 De ieiunio booke of fasting is by force drawen in by the imperious Consistorials for euidence against Bishops which I cannot but wonder at seeing they condemne both fasting in Lent other fasts which he alloweth and the degree state of bishops which he commendeth in his booke 1 Lib. de baptism of baptisme where hee giueth the chiefetie and praerogatiue of Priesthoode to Bishoppes expelling out the impudent Aldermen that nowe are crept in I knowe not by what strange concetie into Churchgouerment In the booke of fasting there is not so much as the office of bishoppes mentioned much lesse any speach against them there is order taken for their allowance which the sacrilegious consistorials that haue ruinated the Church in all places where they come doe denie them In the same place Tertullian doth construe the place 1. Timoth. 5.17 against these men for hee onely vnderstandeth by Elders that rule
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
4 5. Eliz. c. 1. Ex officio by any Ordinarie to a Clarke the refusall whereof is verie penall In the register in the title Consultation diuers cases are founde where the Iudges ecclesiasticall procceding ex officio is allowed Why then may not ecclesiasticall commissioners proceede Ex officio and minister othes For that which this accuser sayth that for matters of felonie they examine men vpon their othes is false For with these cases they doe not meddle If the articulator can proue they doe why doeth he not declare it seeing he may thereby procure them that hurt which he desireth Article 12 No man shoulde be cited to a spirituall courte to depose therein as witnesse For this is extortion and tort to the partie Fitz. iust ofp. p. 172. Cromp. 219. Answere Neither is any cited ad iurandum or to depose but ad testificandum which neither the author of the Articles nor any else can deny to bee lawfull For neither is this libeller nor any man to bee credited without an othe Somewhat this smatterer hath heard but hee cannot cite it right For both the Register and Fitzherbert the author of this opinion doeth allowe othes in causes testamentarie and matrimoniall And it is the common practise and euer was in all causes and courtes And himselfe confesseth so much in the next accusation But the obiection he cannot hit When hee obiecteth right hee shall haue his answere more at full Now it is sufficiēt to say that which euery lawyer that knoweth any lawe can tell him that seeing by the lawes of England many causes are heard in Ecclesiasticall courtes which cannot bee decided without witnesses the calling of witnesses is necessarie Article 13 No Bishoppe ought to appoynt a man to appeare before him to take an othe ex Officio sauing in matters of marriages and willes Answere Many wayes the ignorance of this man that would gladly shewe his skill in lawe appeareth For wee say not in termes of lawe that a man taketh an othe ex officio but that the Iudge proceeding sometime Ex Officio sometime otherwise doeth minister an othe to the partie Againe the bishop doeth not appoynt men to appeare before him but calleth them by proces of lawe But these are but errors in termes A grosser fault it is that he mistaketh lawe For not whatsoeuer Fitzherbert setteth downe is lawe in this case especially of prohibition For nothing is more ordinarie then to reuerse prohibitions by consultations The meaning of the wordes of Fitzherbert or rather of the Register whence he drewe his writte was That men should not bee called into ecclesiasticall courtes to confirme any contract concerning goods or chattels by othe by which meanes the ecclesiastical court encroched vpon other courtes Onely causes Matrimoniall and Testamentarie in that case for to other it cannot bee extended were excepted That in matter of Tithes and other causes men answered vpon their othes is euident for that the 1 Art Cler. 9. Edw. 2. c. 12. Kings tenants as well as others answered before Ordinaries and were by them also excommunicate for their contumacie In matters of Tithes the 2 27. H. 8. contemners of the ecclesiasticall processe by statute are condemned and may bee forced to obey And in another statute it is decreed That the 3 32. H. 8. Ordinarie may conuent such as withholde Tythes according to to the lawes ecclesiasticall Likewise the ecclesiasticall Iudge may by statute proceede against those that 4 Eliz. c. 2. violate the lawes concerning vniformitie of Common prayer yea Fitzherbert 5 Nou. Natur breu fol. 63. graunteth that an ecclesiasticall Iudge may exact a caution iuratorie before he deliuer a man that is in prison vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo False it is therefore that this bolde and blinde bayarde sayth That byshops boldlie presume against lawe Nay he and his companions boldly presume both against lawe and common humanitie for both doe they runne into fellonies and treasons and also speake against lawes and defend their doinges and raile against others that gently put them in minde of their faultes Article 14 Morning and Euening prayer should be read euery day throughout the yeere but are not Answere How knoweth hee that Morning and Euening prayer is not said If he had frequented Churches so diligently as he ought to haue done he might haue vnderstood the contrary But where it is not said I thinke he liketh vs not the worse for that For no sort of men I except not the Iesuites doe more bitterly raile against our booke and order of Common prayer then his consorts doe And yet this wil I proue that the worst of those prayers are more Christianlike then their extemporall prayers made of broken sighes and sentences for the most part and full fraught with malice and other passions To say nothing of confusion But suppose prayers were not said euery day let him shew where they are so commanded For the Communion booke commandeth them not so peremptorily to be read as the accuser anoweth but alloweth the Curat to omit them when he is lette either with priuate studie or other necessary busines which exception he hath quite forgotten and left out as for Prayers they be in most places vsed and would be more if they were not by these contentious fellowes despised Article 15 The Curate must tolle a Bell yet doeth not he but the Sexten Answere A bloudie fault and great pitie that the Presbyterie with their bels and bables were not admitted if for nothing else yet to take order that belles might bee tolled The preface to the Communion booke doeth onely will the Curate to doe it or to appoynt one to doe it And so it is in most places And if he did it not yet is he not in fault but the parishioners that against his wil appoynt a Sexten that is not at his commandement This Article tendeth as all the practises of puritanes doe to the disgrace of the Ministery whom they would put to all base offices and yet you my masters of the ministerie both see them and suffer them to abuse you and your function Article 18 The people are to answere the Priest and to say Amen Yet doeth the Clarke answere alone in most places Answere If this Accuser had good matter he would not spare that taketh such paines to finde a knot in a rushe picketh quarrels where no cause is For both it is false which he saith that the people answereth not and were it true yet is it not the bishops or others fault but the peoples that will not attend the prayers and say Amen Percase some are phantasticall persons and condemne our forme of prayers some are phrenetical and vnderstand not more fitte to be prayed for then to pray Article 17 Where there is singing there the lessons should be sung in a plaine tune c. Answere Nothing doeth more displease the puritans then church-musicke and singing yet this accuser
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland