for the excommunication By whych testimonies besydes the institution of God the practise of the churches in the apostles times appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touchyng excommunication as long as there was any purity in the church And it is to be obserued heere that bothe in thys parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes thyngs were referred vnto the Synodes prouincial nationall or generall as the case required so if the elders of any church shall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the partyes whych are greeued may haue recourse for remedy vnto the elders and pastoures of dyuers churches that is to say vnto Synodes of shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuenient by the church according to the difficulty or waight of the matters whych are in controuersy Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of suche difficultyes whych the seuerall presbyteries can not so well iudge of but also to the ende that common counsell myght be taken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those thyngs whych can not be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those whych for their hardnesse can not be there decided must be brought into the Synodes of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bene done in the apostles times and in the churches whych followed them long after These thyngs standing in thys sorte all those Courtes of byshoppes and archbyshoppes must needes fall whych were by Antichrist erected against thys lawfull iurisdiction of Eldership as the courte of faculties and those whych are holden by chauncellors commissaries officials and suche lyke the describyng of the corruptions wherof would require a whole boke of whych I will note the principall heads and summes First for the they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vnto them but to euery particulare church and especially to the eldershyp or gouernoures of the church and therfore although they should do nothing but that whych were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labors vnto men much les to God puttyng their sickle in an other mannes harnest For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement if hys yea were yea and hys nay nay consydering that he sayd before that thys iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should pertaine vnto the Byshop as he is called to whom notwythstanding it dothe not appertaine yet were it not lawfull for hym to translate thys office vnto an other and to appoynt one to doe it when he lysteth no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of ministring as preaching the worde and ministring the sacraments An other thyng is that in these courts whych they cal spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are meere ciuil therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted in seuering the ciuill causes from the ecclesiasticall but iustling also wyth the ciuill magistrate and thrusting hym from the iurisdiction whych appertaineth vnto hym as the causes of the contracts of mariage of diuorces of willes testaments with diuers suche other like things For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof to shew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iust cause of diuorce and so forthe yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do appertaine vnto the ciuill magistrate Heerevnto may be added that all their punishments almost are penalties of mony whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church but is a thyng meerely ciuill Thirdly as they handle matters whych do not appertain vnto the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction so those whych do appertaine vnto the church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable whych M. doctor hym selfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Last of all they take vpon them those thyngs whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to doe of whych sorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition and same confessed by M. Doctor I will not heere speake of the vnfitnes of those whych are chefe offycers in these courts that the most of them are eyther papists or bribers or drunkardes I know what I wryte or epicures and such as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland doing nothing of those things whych appertaine vnto them and of other suche naughty persons whych are not only not meete to be gouernors in the church but whych in any reformed church shoulde not be so much as of the church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do the whych they do of conscience and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche whych I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe them selues in their vocations and being men for their giftes apte and able either to serue the Church or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupye theyr gifts there then where they haue no grounde to assure them selues that they doe please god Now I will take a short suruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of master of faculties chancellors c. First he sayth in the 117 page out of the Ancyran councel that there were vicars of bishops wher although y name be not foūd of chācclors c. yet there is sayth he the office What vicar s Paules B. may haue and in what case I haue shewed before where I haue proued the necessary residence of euery pastor in his flock But I will note heere how M. Doctor both goe about to abuse hys reader in these vicares And first where there were three editions of which one only maketh mention of these vicares he tooke that left the other which is to be obserued for that thys varietie of editions rose of the diuers vnderstanding of the greke word chorepiscopos which may be taken eyther for hym that is byshop for an other and in hys place or for hym that is byshop in the country that is in some towne which is no citie so that chorepiscopus was opposed vnto the byshop which was of some citie And if it be so taken then here is no proofe for the vicarse of byshoppes But howsoeuer it be it shall appeare that the names of chauncelors and chorepiscopos doe not so much differ as the offices and functions of them For it appeareth in the same Councell and Canon that they were like the. 70. disciples
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.
our honoures or our commodities and wealth but as I haue sayd our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death that he might shew vs an example and forthwith speaketh of God which rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of these things Fourthly if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer which is that the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys and say that these thinges or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away Therefore it is to be obserued what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothe and in hym all that hee should keepe all these things not vntill the tyme of peace or to the times of Christian Princes but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church being a part of that order and gouernment of the church which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be changed So that we haue not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no commaundement but we haue also a straight commaundement I say the onely examples ought to moue vs for what way can we safelyer follow then the common hygh way beaten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles and of all the churches Things also growing and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment whereby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles aduise haue gone but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaundement and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene and a hundred and fifteene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past but sayth that it ought not now so to bee For sayeth hee the tymes alter the gouernment and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of prosperitie as in the tyme of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayeth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vnder a tyrant onles thys be a reason that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the tyme of the Apostles as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times greater necessyty vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauaile were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery then are the mynisters of these dayes Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes when the mynisters were so well and so richly replenished with such giftes much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the mynisters of these dayes wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge and dyligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose handes so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes other handes then the mynisters now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier then theirs were haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had Agayne if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted therefore pore churches with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well are worthy double honour whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured that is haue that wherewyth shee might honestly and soberly liue if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders which being poore were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church because they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires to wayte of the affaires of the church how much more ought there now to be senyors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so pore and when there may be chosen such for the most part thoroughout the realme as are able to liue without charging the church any whit as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon that is free and without charges as much as is possible and so loth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those which were poore dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thincke that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue thys office without charge ought to receiue thys order of auncientes Moreouer those that be learned know that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall that
not be husbandmen crafts mē c. yet may haue ciuil offices I thinke far otherwise that although neither be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable then the other For seing after the ministery of the word there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde then the office of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen to lay some lyghter charge of exercising handy craft then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate least the efficacy and power of the simplicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these gloryous shewes And least whylest the mynyster haue the woorde in one hande and the sword in the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubt with them selues whether the feare out ward shew of the mynister caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word But M. Doctor sayeth that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall it is so and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so muche as they together with the care of relygion procure and prouide for the things wherby we may quietly and commodiously lyue here where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly spirituall which you take marchandyse husbandry and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God returne to hym agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to hys glory so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bring hym downe to the plough as promote hym to the courte And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasticall because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes I meruayle that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences and appoynting bodely punishmentes which are meere cyuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with An other of Maister Doctors reasons is that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes aswell as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law because by executing them he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betwene hym and the byshop yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it For wee know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the lawes then as hys similytude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght and is no simylitude As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples which may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech afterward in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lord toke from Moses being so wise godly a man the priesthode gaue it to Aaron and to hys successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church make it famous renoumed in the world he gaue thys order It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lord did not tary vntil Moses death but toke the priesthode away frō Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elie or Samuell And thys may be also easely seene for that in a maner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche these offices were mynistred by seuerall persons and then met were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and myserable And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and mynister the sacramentes For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices because Elie and Samuell being mynisters did so the Princes and Iudges may preach the word and mynister the sacramentes because Elie and Samuell being princes and iudges dyd so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to defende one confusion bringeth in an other As for Elias killing the false prophetes and our sauiour Christes whipping out of the temple it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may cal for fire from heauen as Elias dyd and being demaunded answere nothing as our sauiour dyd as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set by thys a man may proue that the mynisters may be fyshers and tent makers because Peter and Paule being mynisters dyd fyshe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a councell that rather then a mynister should haue two benefices he might labor with hys handes to supply hys want withall When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he dyd commit nothing les then any ciuill office vnto hym And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before as a thing incident to the office of a byshop and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now that maketh thys a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thincke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgement that the church in the tyme of persecution may make ciuill officers
reading is but bare feading the discorde is in hys cares not in their wordes For when they sayde it was no feading they meant suche feeding as could saue them and so in calling it bare feading they note that there is not enough in that to keepe them from famishment And in deede vnles the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily whych is not to beloked for of vs the bare reading of the scriptures wythout the preachyng can not delyuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction and from the wolfe And if some haue ben conuerted wonderfully yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei that is The water doth not alway beare iron And vpon the thirde leafe where he geueth instance in the Apocalypse of the worde priest to be taken otherwyse then for the Leuiticall priesthode and priesthode of our sauioure Christe Maister D. can not be ignorant that the admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deede properly and not by those whych are priests by a Metaphore and borowed speache And whereas he desyreth to learne where the word priest is taken in euill parte in all the new Testament Although all men see how he asketh thys question of no minde to learne yet if he will learne as he sayeth he shall finde that in the actes of the apostles it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon that is of priests was after our sauyor Christes ascencion naught and vngodly The name wherby they were called whych dyd exercise that vngodly function can not be otherwyse taken then in the euill parte M. Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe citeth M. Caluins authority to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children and the Confirmation whych is heere vsed is good In the whych place although he allow of a kinde of Confirmation yet he doth not commende that whych we haue For he dothe plainly reproue Ierom for saying that it came from the apostles whych notwythstanding the Confirmation wyth vs dothe affirme Besydes that there are other abuses whych I haue noted there whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come oute of their childehode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those whych did thruste it oute of the churche where he was pastor And so he alloweth of it that he bryngeth in the sixt section of the same chapter a strong reason to abolyshe it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes should do now seeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghost by that ceremony is ceased Therfore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason against thys imposition of hands hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seing that we haue experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it whych M. Caluin coulde not haue that thyng being not in vse in that church where he lyued Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not necessary oughte to be a iust cause of abolyshing of them And thys is not my iudgement only but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession Vpon the. 6. leafe M. Doctor sayth that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes but our byshops take it at their hands and geuen of them as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynst the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the princes For by that reason if Prynces would put their swordes in hys hand as sometymes they haue done he myghte lawfully vse them And wheras he sayeth that our church men meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church and the state What sayth he that is not truely sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme for no one dothe meddle in all causes And further I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iurisdiction is in thys realme whych helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of thys church and state For if they meddle wyth all that there is none whych they haue not to do with Vpon the. 7. leafe he sayth that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spiritual their meaning is plaine enoughe and I haue declared it more at large to be not only that our sauyor Christ ruleth by hys spirite in the hearts of hys elect besides whych gouernment M. doctor seemeth to know none But that there is also spiritual gouernmēt whych is in the whole church visible to be sene exercised by those whome God hath appoynted in hys stead called spirituall because where as the ciuill gouernment vseth the sword thys vseth the word and where the ciuill gouernor addresseth hymselfe vnto the bodye and hathe that for speciall matter to worke on the spirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde and subduing that wyth those punishments and corrections whych God hath appoynted for that purpose Whych signification of spirituall gouernment M. Caluine doth speake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor and especially in the later vnto whom the admonition sent the reader not therby to giue more waight vnto the truth but that he myght haue there a plainer and fuller vnderstanding of that whych it meant and could not for that breuity and shortnes whych it foloweth throughout vtter at large Wherby it is manifest that the admonition is so farre from shutting out eyther ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the church that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor semeth not to haue heard of allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the scryptures or Ecclesiasticall wryters Vpon the. 8. leafe M. doctor sayth he seeth nothyng howe the place of the Ephesians maketh any thing against this maner of speach of the bishop receiue the holy ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vnto men the byshops shoulde not vse this manner of speache which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement Vpon the. 9. leafe he hath sondry greeuous accusations and charges of disorder disobedience and contempt against those whych refuse the apparel and laboureth to persuade that they are great and waighty matters But hys profes were spent before As for answeare to the articles collected out of the admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors boke where I haue shewed howe the admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise then either it meaneth or speaketh whervnto I will referre the reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M.
common wealth vnto the church 181. Drunkardes whoremongers c. papistes are neither of the church nor in the church 50. M. Doctors Clemens counterfait 88. c. Communion receiued by 2. or 3. the rest of the church departing not to be suffered 147. c. Papistes ought not to bee compelled to receiue the Communion of the Lord nor to be admitted if they offer them selues 167. c. Communicants what they be which must of necessitie be examined 164. c. Wherupon the ministring of the Communion in houses to sicke parsons rose 146. c. Common bread most conuenient for the Communion 164. c. Kneeling at the Communion daungerous and not so agreeable to the action of the supper as sitting 165. c Confirmation of children ought to be taken away 199. D  Deacons ordayning with vs in part examined 39 Deacons were in euery church 190. c. Deacons office is only in prouiding for the poore of the church 190. Deacons office perpetuall 191. Deacons may not preach nor baptise 161. DecoÌ„sh is no ordinary step to the ministery 163 Deanes in times past how much they differed from ours now 96. Disciplyne and gouernment of the church â—â—â— matters of fayth and saluation 26 Discipline standeth in 3. principall partes 183. Dyonisius Areopagita no archb but bish 91. M. doctors Dyonisius a counterfait 188 E  Elders in euery congregation in the Apostles times 173. c Elders necessary in euery churche of the causes of their office 175. c. Elders in euery church alwayes necessary but especially in the time of peace vnder a christen magistrate 178. c. Eldership was kept in the church vnder christian Emperors in the time of peace 182. Eldership fel out of the church through slouthfulnes ambition of the Doctors 182. Election of the ministers ought to bee by the church 44. c Pretended differences to alter the manner of election of the mynisters vsed in the primatiue church answered 49. c Election and ordination differ 58. c Euangelists no ordinary ministers 63. c. Excommunication doth not belong to one maÌ„ but vnto the church and especially to the minister and elders therof 184. c. F  Standing lawes of fasting brought in first by the hereticke Montanus 30. Augustines and Ambroses corrupt iudgement of fasting 30. G  We haue more certaine direction by the gospel in the whole seruice of God then the Iewes had by the lawe 35. c. Greater seuerity ought to be vsed against sins and especially against idolatry vnder the gospel then vnder the law 42. c There ought to be no more standing at the reading of the gospell theÌ„ at the reading of other scriptures 203 Churche Gouernment compounded of all the good formes of gouernment 51. H  The churches authoritye in makyng of Holy dayes 151. c Of the Apostles and saints dayes 152. c. Of homilyes reading in the church 81. 196. c I.  Iames no archbyshop but a byshop by Eusebius iudgement 91. There ought to be no more curtesy at the name of Iesus then at the other names of God. 203. M  Abuses in the celebration of maryage 196. c. Metropolitane byshop what that the name implieth no supertoritye 93. Metropolitanes very pore 108. 94. Ministers lordship one ouer an other eyther in office or name forbidden 22. c In what sorte and howe farre ministers are superiors one ouer another 109. c The cause of want of ministers with vs. 40. c. Ministers reuolting to idolatrye oughte not to be receiued againe to the ministery 40. Ministers may not exercise ciuill offices 206. O  Officials iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Ordination and election differ 58. c. Receiue the holy ghost an vnlawfull speache of the B. in ordaining ministers 62. c. P  Parishes not deuided by Denis the Monke but by the word of God. 69. Prayers not only in matter but also in forme ought to belike the prayers of the scripture 138 Particulare faultes in oure forme of Common prayer 136. c The name of Priest cannot agree vnto the minister of the gospell 198. Prophet no ordinary minister 63. c R  Reading is not preaching 160 Reading preaching the word compared 159 Residence or abiding in one certain place required of al ordinary ecclesiastical ministeries 60 Residence continuall and necessary of the minister in hys church 65. c S  Sacramentes oughte to be ministred after the word is preached 157. Sacramentes vnlawfully ministred in priuate houses 28. 142. c Scripture containing the direction of al things pertaining to the churche and of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life 26 Scriptures Canonicall ought only to be red in the church 196. c Singing of Psalmes in the church side by side corrupt 203. T  Theodoret a pore Metropolitane 115. Timotheus and Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste byshops 91. but in deede Euangelists 65 Aug. iudgement of traditions very corrupt 31 VV  Widowes in the churche to helpe the sicke and impotent in it 191 Women may not minister baptisme and howe this corruption came into the church 143. c Womens churching corrupt 150 ⧠To the Church of England and ALL THOSE THAT LOVE THE TRVETH IN IT T. C. wisheth mercy and peace from God our father and from our Lord Iesus Christ AS our men do more willingly go to warfare and fyght with greater courage agaynst straungers then agaynst theyr countreymen so it is with me in thys spirituall warfare For I would haue wyshed that thys controuersy had bene with the Papystes or with other if any can be more pestylent and professed ennemyes of the church for that should haue bene les griefe to wryte and more conuement to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an ennemy doth kyndle the desire of fyghting and stirreth vp the care of preparing the furniture for the warre So I can not tell how it commeth to passe that the name of a brother staketh that courage and abateth that carefulnes which should be bestowed in desence of the truth But seeing the truth ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lord myght lay it to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so ready as I ought to haue bene to publyshe the truth he myght more iustly condemne me if being oppugned and slaundered by others I should not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habylitie defend it and delyuer it from the euill report that some endeuor to bring vpon it And as vnto other partes of the gospell so sone as the Lord openeth a dore for them to enter in there is for the most part great resistance so in thys part concerning the gouernment and dyscipline of the church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctryne
conscience For if so be that the white apparell of the minister haue any force either to moue the people or the minister vnto greater purenes or to any other godlynes whatsoeuer then it is that whych ought to be commaunded and to be obeyed of necessity and to be retained althoughe the contrarye were forbidden And then also if there be a vertue in a white garment and the signification therof be so strong to worke godlynes it were meete that order were taken that the whitest clothe should be bought that it should be often at the least euery weeke once washed by a very good launder and wyth sope for if the white helpe more white helpeth more and that whych is moste white helpeth moste of all to godlynes Although the church haue authoritye to make ceremonies so they be according to the rules before recited of Gods glory and profiting the congregation I coulde for all that neuer yet learne that it had power to giue newe significations as it were to institute newe sacramentes And by this meanes is taken cleane awaye from vs the holde whych we haue against the papistes whereby against all the goodly shewes whych they make by the coloure of these significations we say that the word of God and the sacramentes of baptisme and of the supper of the Lord are sufficient to teache to admonishe and to put vs in remembrance of all duetye whatsoeuer So we are nowe come to the superstition of the Grecians for as they will haue neyther grauen nor carued image in their Churches but painted so we wil nether haue grauen nor carued nor painted but wouē And truely I see no cause why we may not haue as wel holy water holy bread if this reason whych is here be good for I am sure the significations of them are as gloryous as this of the surplice and call to remembraunce as necessarye things And if it be sayde that it maye not be least the number of ceremonies shoulde be to too great it may be easely answeared that these whych we haue may be taken away and those set in place of them And therefore althoughe the surplice haue a blacke spot when it is whitest yet is it not so blacke as you make it wyth your white significations nor the cause so euill as you defend it If you pres me with M. Martyrs and M. Bucers authoritye I first say they were men therefore although otherwise very watchfull yet such as slept some times And then I appeale from their Apocryphas vnto their knowne wrytings and from their priuate letters vnto their publike recordes M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes and shewes of good and not of euill as the authors of the admonition alleage To the proufe wherof although according to his manner he repeateth diuers things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hath comprehended in an argument whych is that for so muche as the ministers are good whych weare them therfore they are also good and because the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of idolles to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Shaddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and hys three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babylonian Idols are by thys reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Again the golden calfe was a signe Also it was a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of god Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betweene those and thys cause I haue spoken before You say the cause of discorde is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discord because they consent not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is as soone sayde that you are the causers of discorde because you doe not consent wyth those whych were not for as there should be vnitie in that poynte if all did weare that apparell so should there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of thys apparell wyth the vse of wine and of a sworde whych are profitable and necessary but it is more intollerable that you match it wyth the word of god I could throwe it as farre downe as you lifte it vp but I will not doe so Thys only I will saye if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet for as much as it is not commaunded of God expresly but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so many incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolish them seing that the brasen serpent whych was instituted of the Lorde him selfe and contained a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes hys people was beaten to pouder when as it began to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israel and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes whych were kepte at the administration of the Lords supper and were meanes to nourishe loue amongst the churches were abused drawne to an other vse thē they were first ordained did vtterly take them away commaund that they shuld not be vsed any more The rest of that whych followeth in this matter is nothing else but either that whych hath bene often times repeated or else reprochefull words or vniust accusations of contempt of magistrates wythout any proufe at all and therfore are suche as eyther are answered or whych I will not voutchsafe to answere especially seeing that I meane not to giue reproche for reproche and reuiling for reuiling and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission and louing feare or reuerence whych we beare to the Prince and those whych are appoynted magistrates vnderneathe her And therfore I will conclude that for so muche as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie are not nor can not be the fittest to sette forthe the gospell and for that they are occasions of fall to some of hinderance to other some of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others the contrary of all which ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the churche therefore neyther is thys apparell fittest for the minister of the gospell and if it were yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it it should be remoued To the next section in the. 62. and. 63. pages YOu know they allow studying for sermones and amplifying and expoūding of the scriptures why then do you aske But by thys question you would haue
Egipt cryed in the councell of Calcedon that he was no bishop it is to be obserued that which the Emperoures Theodosius and Valentinian wryte vnto Dioscorus bishop of Alexandria that he had commaunded Theodoret byshop of Cyrus that he should kepe hym selfe vnto hys owne church only wherby it appeareth that he medled in moe churches then was mete he should Besides that wanteth not suspition the he speaketh this of him selfe especially when he sayth the there was not in all those 800. churches one tare the is one hypocrite or euil maÌ„ Now that it may appeare what great lykelyhoode there is betwene thys Theodoret and our Lord byshops and archbyshops it is to be considered which he wryteth of hym selfe in the Epistle vnto Leo that is that he hauing bene 26. yeares byshop was knowne of all that dwelt in those partes that he had neuer house of hys owne nor field nor halfepennie not so much as a place to be buryed in but had willingly contented hym selfe with a poore estate belyke he had a very leane archbyshoppricke And if the fat morsels of our byshopprickes archbishopprickes were taken employed to their vses of maintenance of the pore of the mynisters and of the vniuersities which are the seede of the mynisterie I thincke the heate of the disputation and contention for archbyshops and bishops would be cooled Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath bene able to take together out of the olde fathers which he sayth are so playne in thys matter and yet can shew nothing to the purpose Heare also what he sayth out of the wryters of our age all which he sayth except one or two are of hys iudgement and allow well of thys distinction of degrees Maister Caluin first is cited to proue those offices of archbyshop primate patriarche the names whereof he can not abyde and as for hym he approueth only that there should be some â–ª which when difficult causes arise which can not bee ended in the particulare churches might referre the matters to sinodes and prouinciall councels and which myght do the offices which I haue spoken of before of gathering voyces c. But that he lyketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the byshoppes or archbyshops which we haue now it may appeare playnly enough both in that place when as he will haue hys wordes drawen to no other then the olde byshoppes shutting out thereby the byshoppes that now are as also in other places and namely vpon the Philippians where reasoning agaynst thys distinction betwene pastor and byshop and shewing that geuing the name of byshop to one man only in a church was the occasion why he afterward vsurped domynation ouer the rest he sayth after thys sort In deede I graunt sayth he as the dispositions and manners of men are order can not stande amongst the mynisters of the woorde vnlesse one be ouer the rest I meane sayth he of euery seuerall and singuler body not of a whole prouince much lesse of the whole worlde Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins archbyshop you must not haue hym neyther ouer a prouince nor diocese but only ouer one singuler and particuler congregation How much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter against the storme then maister Caluins which will not suffer you by any meanes to couer your selfe vnder hys winges but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably But heere I can not let passe M. Doctors ill dealing which recyting so much of maister Caluin cutteth hym of in the waste and leaueth quite out that which made agaynst hym that is which maister Caluin â—ayth in these wordes Although sayth he in thys disputacion it may not be passed ouer that this office of archbyshop or patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed which dealing semeth to proceede of a very euill conscience Then followeth Hemingius who you say approueth these degrees of archbishop metropolitane byshop archdeacon for so you must needes meane when you say he approueth these degrees or els you say nothing for there vpon is the question Now how vntruely you speake let it be iudged by that which followeth * First he sayth that our sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference betwene the office of a Prince and the office of the minister of the church leauing domynion to the Princes and taking it altogether from the mynisters Here you see not only how he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke which wold haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambitioÌ„ but also how at a word he cutteth the throte of your archbyshop and byshop as it is now vsed And afterward speaking of the churches of Denmarke he sayth they haue Christ for their head for the outwarde discipline they haue magistrates to punish with the sword for to exercise the Ecclesiasticall disciplyne they haue bishops pastors doctors which may keepe men vnder with the word without vsing any corporall punishment Here is no mention of archbyshops Primates metropolitanes And although he sheweth that they kepe the distinction betwene byshops and ministers against whych there hath bene before spoken yet he sayth that the authority which they haue is as the authority of a father not as the power of a maister whych is far otherwise heere For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maisters is much more free then the condition of a minister vnder hys byshop And afterward he sheweth wherin that authority or dignity of the byshop ouer the minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chiding of hym as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the minister although not with such authority after a modest sort to do the same vnto the byshop And so he concludeth that they retain these orders notwithstanding the anabaptists Now let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faithfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their church archbishops primates metropolitanes archdeacons or whether the byshops in the churches of Denmarke are any thing like oures For I will omit that he speaketh there against all pomp in the ministery all worldly superiority or highnes because I loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a boke M. doctor closeth vp this matter wyth M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place should be found that there might be answer or for feare that M. Foxe should giue me the solution whych hath giuen you the obiection he wold neither quote the place of the boke nor the boke it self he hauing wrytten diuers You caÌ„ not speake so much good of M. Foxe whych I will not willingly subscribe vnto And if it be any declaration of good will and of honor that one beareth to an other to read that whych he wryteth I thinke I haue
appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
of the archbyshops it followeth to speake vnto the remnant of that section which is contayned in the. 214. 215. 216. 217. 218. pages for vnto a part therof which is comprehended in the. 213. and a peece of the. 214. page I haue answeared in the same treatise of the Archbyshops THe places alledged by the Admonition to proue that mynisters of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one only excepted are well and fitly alledged and most of them vsed to that ende of wryters which if I should name all would confesse that they are such as with whome M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day For the first place if so be that the mynister ought rather to leaue necessary dueties of burying hys father saluting hys frends vndone then that he shoulde not accomplysh hys ministery to the full much more he ought not to take vpon hym those thinges which are not only not necessary dueties but as it shall appeare doe in no case belong vnto hym And although it may be applyed to all Chrystians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the mynisters And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauyoure Chrystes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce betweene the brethren it is moste aptly alledged to thys purpose For althoughe our sauioure Christe doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet hee sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to intermeddle in the iudgement of cyuil causes For our sauioure Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he being a Minister of the Gospell dyd all those things which were pertayning to hys mynistery So by refusing thys office of iudgement in cyuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was the ministery And therfore it is altogether out of season that M. D. here alledgeth that the Anabaptistes vse thys reason to proue that christians may not haue magistrates For how doth thys follow that because thys place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there coulde bee no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alledgeth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for hym but doth quite ouerthrow hys cause For he sayeth that our sauiour Christ dyd not refuse thys as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but because it dyd not agree with hys vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a mynister of the gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a mynister of the gospell to iudge or to entermeddle in cyuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins works as by hys often allegation of hym he woulde make the world beleue he might haue * red in hym thys sentence cited for thys purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to doe with ciuill things Furthermore M. D. asketh what S. Paules place to the Romanes where he willeth that he which hath an office must waite of that office he that teacheth of his teaching maketh to thys purpose Surely M. Doc. very much Neither can there be a place more properly alledged both for the very playnes of the words also for the circumstāce of the place For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which would ouerreach their callings hauing certeine callings contented not them selues with them but woulde haue an ore in euery mans boate and would take more vpon them then they were able to doe or the measure of theyr giftes would stretch vnto And therefore sheweth that as the body is best preserued when euery member thereof doth hys office and destroyed when one member will take vpon it to do the office of an other so the church is then best gouerned when euery Ecclesiasticall person keepeth hym selfe within the limits of hys calling not medling with that which pertayneth vnto an other But M. Doctor sayeth that the byshoppe gouerneth as well by disciplyne as by preaching so he doth But I pray you by what dysciplyne what a reason is thys he gouerneth by discipline ergo by ciuill disciplyne You say in the next sentence that the authors of the admonition either dote or dreame But if these be your sharpe disputations when you are awake surely they are very blunt when you dreame But I had rather iudge the best that Maister Doctor was ouer-watched The last place which is alledged by the admonition is out of the epistle to Tim. where it sheweth that for so much as the estate of a minister is as that of a souldier therfore as the souldyer to the end he myght the better please hys captaine doe hys seruice of warfare quitteth all those things which he loueth whereof otherwyse he might haue care and might enioy euen so the mynister ought to dispatch hym selfe of all those things which may be any let to the office of hys mynistery although he might otherwise lawfully vse thē And if so be for the performing of the ministery to the full he must quite those things which he may lawfully vse how much more might the admonition conclude that he ought not to entangle himselfe with those things which out of the places of S. Luke and to the Romaines it had shewed to be vnlawfull for hym to meddle with And although M. D. say the sentence be generall yet it is particularly ment and most properly of the mynisters which Maister Caluin teacheth M. Doctor in the same place where he hath cited hys authoritie twise to no purpose For what although M. Caluin doe not there apply in prescript words thys sentence to proue that mynisters ought not to meddle with cyuill offices doth it follow therefore that thys place can not be vsed thereto In saying that he ought to abstayne from all lets which may hinder his vocation ministery he doth cōsequently say that he ought to abstayne from all ciuill offices And if so be M. Doct. had bene so well red in the auncient doctors as he would seeme he might haue knowen that thys place is vsed of * Cyprian to the same purpose that it is alledged heere For Cyprian speaking agaynst an elder which had taken vpon him to be executor to one which was dead alledgeth thys place To these reasons of the admonition may be added that which the admonition hath in the. 230. page that the regiment of the church is spirituall and respecteth the conscience therefore hath not to do with ciuill offices which respect properly the common wealth and the outward godly honest and quiet behauior And therefore their meaning is ▪ that as the ciuill gouernor doth vse such kinde of punishment as may bridle the outward man hold hym
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline