feare but those indifferent ceremonies I shal say no more of them but I pray God that now at length it may please his Majestie with this his great Counsel of Parliament to take a view of them and if there be a necessitie to retaine them let them bee retained but if not then let us remove them before they ruine us As to the evills and inconveniences that arise out of the Government it selfe I should have noted something amisse as well in the legislative part as in the executive part but in the former I am prevented by what hath beene already voted concerning the power of making Cannons which votes if they bee brought to perfection they will set us right in great part in that respect for surely before the power was neither in the hands of such as were representative of that which is truely the Church of England nor yet in the hands of those that were truely representative of the Clergie of England if they were the whole Church as indeed they are not As to the executive part which consisteth in the exercise of ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction therein I note also two disorders Confusion and Corruption Confusion of the Spirituall sword with the Temporall lay-men strike with the Spirituall sword and Spirituall men with the Temporall sword nay out of the same mouth and at the same time proceedeth an excommunication and a fine or commitment or both I will not say positively that it is unlawfull for Clergie men to exercise civill Jurisdiction because I know it is a question but yet such a question as hath beene determined by divers Canons of generall Councells and by some that were made in Synods of the Church of England that it is unlawfull and that upon grounds which are not contemptible As first that it is contrary to the precept and practise of Christ and his Apostles And secondly that it is not possible for one man to discharge two functions whereof either is sufficient to imploy the whole man especially that of the ministery so great that they ought not to entangle themselves with the affaires of this world A third ground not so well observed generally as in one part thereof is this that Ministers of the Gospell being sent especially to gaine the soules of men they are to gaine as great interest as possible may bee in their minds and affections now wee know that the nature of all men is such that they are apt to thinke hardly of those that are any authors of their paine and punishment although it bee in a way of justice therefore as it is well knowne that Clergy men are not to be present in judicio sanguinis so the same reason extends it selfe to the administration of all civill jurisdiction and therefore wee may observe that our Saviour Christ as he alwayes rejected all civill judicature so on the other side he went up and downe healing mens bodies and otherwise doing good to their outward estate that his doctrine might have a freer and fairer passage into their soules For the corruption that I spoke of in the exercise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction I do not mean any personall corruption but a deviation or aberration from the prescript of the divine rule and though it bee not easie to finde what that is in all particulars yet it is not hard to say what it is not and that I doubt may prove our case in divers things Ecclesiastical jurisdiction we know extendeth either to the Clergy onely and consisteth in the Ordination Admission Suspension and Deprivation of them or else it extendeth to the whole Church and consisteth in excommunication and absolution As to the Ordination Admission Suspension and Deprivation of Ministers we see how it is wholly at the pleasure of one man and that of one man proceeding in a manner arbitrarily and that of one man whose interest is concern'd in it that the doore should be shut against able and painfull preaching Ministers and a wide doore set open to such as are unable and unfit for that function many and great and dangerous evills arise from hence As first that there is a constant farre and fewd betweene the Ecclesiasticall State and the Civill betweene Prelates and Parliaments betweene the Cannon law and the Common law betweene the Clergy and the Common-wealth arising from the disproportion and dissimilitude which is between the Civill and Ecclesiastical Governement however it may seeme to some to agree well enough but the truth is if wee consider his Majesty as the Common-head over the Ecclesiasticall State as well as the Civill wee shall finde that in the exercise of all Civil jurisdiction in all Courts under his Majesty the power is not in any one or his Deputies and Commissaries as it is in the Ecclesiasticall Government in the severall Diocesses throughout this Kingdome if wee looke first upon the highest and greatest Court the high Court of Parliament we know that is a Counsell and a great Counsel too In like manner in the inferiour Courts of Westminster-Hall there are many Judges in the point of law and more in matter of fact wherein every man is judged by twelve of equall condition unto him I meane the juries which are Judges of the fact both in causes Civill and Criminall and if wee looke into the country wee shall finde the Sessions and Sizes and other Courts held not by any one but by divers Commissioners And in short in the Civil Government every man from the greatest to the least hath some share in the Government according to the Proportion of his Interest in the Common-wealth but in the Government of the Church all is in the hands of one man in the several Diocesses or of his Chancellours or Commissaries and hee exacts Canonicall obedience to his Pontificall commands with a totall exclusion of those that notwithstanding have as much share in the Church and consequently as much Interest in the government of it as they have in that of the Commonwealth Sir untill the Ecclesiastical government be framed something of another twist and be more assimilated unto that of the Common-wealth I feare the Ecclesiastical government will bee no good neighbour unto the Civil but will be still a casting in of its leaven into it to reduce that also to a sole absolute and arbitrary way of proceeding And herein Sir I do not beleeve that I utter Prophesies but what we have already found and felt A Second and that a great evill and of dangerous consequence in this sole and arbitrary power of Bishops over their Clergy is this that they have by that meanes a power to place and displace the whole Clergie of their Diocesse at their pleasure and this is such a power as for my part I had rather they had the like power over the Estate and persons of all within their Diocesse for if I hold the one but at the will and pleasure of one man I meane the Ministery under which I must live I can
much knowledge in antiquitie as to confute this out of the fathers and ecclesiasticall histories although there are that undertake that onely one sentence I have often heard cited out of Saint Ierome that in the primitive times Omnia communi Clericorum Concilio regebantur and truely so farre as the Acts of the Apostles and the new Tastament goeth which was the ancientest and most primitive time of Christianity I could never finde there any distinction betweene a Bishop and a Presbyter but that they were one and the very same thing In the next place that which is alledged for the credit of episcopacy is that our reformers and martyrs were many of them Bishops and practized many of those things now complained of and that in other reformed Churches where Bishops are not they are desired For the martyrs and reformers of the Church that were Bishops I doe not understand that that was any part of their reformation nor of their martyrdome I have read that whereas Ridley and Hooper had some difference betweene them in their life time about these things when they came both to their martyrdome hee that had formerly been the patron of this Hierarchie and Ceremonies told his Brother that therein his foolishnesse had contended with his wisedome As for that which is said that other reformed Churches where they have not Bishops yet they are desired I will not deny but some among them may desire Bishoprickes I meane the Dignities and Revenues of bishops but that they desire bishops as thinking it the fittest and best Government of the Church I cannot beleeve for if they would have Bishops why doe they not make themselves Bishops I know not what hindreth why they might not have Bishops when they would In the last place for that which is alledged in relation to the Government of this Kingdome that Bishops are so necessarie as that the King cannot well let them goe with the safetie of Monarchy that if Bishops be taken away assemblies or something must come in the roome therof And if Kings should be subject thereunto and should happen to bee excommunicated thereby that after they would bee little esteemed or obeyed as Kings for this if it shall be cleared as it is affirmed that the removall of the Government by Bishops or of any thing therein do any thing strike at Monarchie I shall never give my vote nor consent thereunto as long as I live But to cleare that this is not so I offer to your consideration that by the law of this land not onely all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but also all superiority preheminence over the ecclesiastical state is annexed to the imperiall Crown of this Realme and may bee granted by Commission under the great seale to such persons as his Majestie shall thinke meete now if the King should grant it unto a certaine number of Commissioners equall in authoritie as hee may doe this were an abolition of Episcopacie and yet not diminution of Monarchy but the truth is Episcopacie is a kinde of Monarchie under a Monarchie and is therein altogether unlike the civill Government under his Majestie for the King being a common head over the ecclesiasticall state and the civill we shall finde that in the exercise of civill jurisdiction in all Courts under his Majestie it is Aristocraticall and placed in manie and not in one as appeareth in this high Court of Parliament in the inferiour Courts of Westminster-Hall in the Sizes and Sessions in the countrie which are held by manie Commissioners and not onely by one or his deputies and Commissaries as it is in the exercise of ecclesiasticall Gogoverment As to the point of excommunicatiō supposing that it did dissolve naturall and civill bonds of dutie as it doth not it might indeed bee as terrible to Princes as it is represented But I reason thus either princes are subject to excommunication or they are not if they bee not then they need as little to fear a Presbyterie or an Assembly as a Bishop in that respect if they bee they have as much to feare from Bishops at leastwise from Bishops in their Convocations as from Presbyters in their assemblies and so much the more because they have formerly felt the thunderbolts of those of that stampe but never from this latter sort And now Sir I proceed to represent unto you the evills and inconveniences that doe proceed from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church and truely in my opinion the chiefe and principall cause of all the evills which wee have suffered since the reformation in this Church and State hath proceeded from that division which so unhappily hath sprung up amongst us about Church Government and the ceremonies of the Church and from which part in that division I beleeve it will appeare in the particulars I know well there is a great division that upon greater matters betweene us and the Papists and I am not ignorant that there have been great and sore breaches made upon our civil liberties and the right of our proprieties But yet still I returne to my former position that the chiefe and most active cause hath proceeded from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church and that those other causes have either fallen into it and so acted by it or issued out of it and so acted from it As for poperie I conceive that to have beene a cause that hath fallen into this and acted by it for at the reformation it received such a deadly wound by so many sharpe lawes enacted against it that had it not beene enlivened by this division amongst us it could never have had influence upon our Church and State to have troubled them as this day we feele but finding that in this division amongst us one partie had neede of some of their principalls to maintain their Hierarchie together with their worldly pompe and ceremonies which are appurtenances thereunto from hence they first conceived a ground of hope and afterwards found meanes of successe towards the introducing againe of their superstition and idolatrie into this Realme and they wrought so diligently upon this foundation that they have advanced their building very farre and how neere they were to set up the Roofe I leave it to your consideration As for the evills which wee have suffered in our civill liberty and the right of our proprieties I conceive they have proceeded out of this and so acted from it for if there had beene no breaches of Parliaments there would have beene no need to have had recourse unto those broken cisternes that can hold no water but there being a stoppage of Parlamentary supplies that was an occasion of letting in upon us such an inundation of monopolies and other illegall taxes and impositions accompanied with many other heavy and sore breaches of our liberties Now there needed not to have beene any breaches of Parliaments had there not been something disliked in them and what was that it could not be any of these
non-payment of a groat And now Sir we may imagine what effects are lik to follow upon such premises the great and dreadfull censure of excommunication is thereby made contemptible and were it not for the civill restrains and penalties that follow upon it no man would purchase an absolution though he might have it for a half penny And I have heard of some that have thanked the Ordinaries for abating or remitting the fees of the Courts but I never heard of any that thanked them for reclayming their soules to repentance by their excommunications Sir for absolution it is relative to excommunication and so labours of the same diseases onely one thing I shall particularly note concerning absolution Sir it is called commutation of penance but indeed it is a destruction of the ordinance making it void and of none effect and surely God never set his Ministers to sell indulgences in his Church The oath that is to precede absolution de parendo juri Ecclesiae et stando c. hath already been sufficiently spoken unto in the debate about the Canons and therefore there will bee no neede of speaking more to that Now Sir I am come to my last head wherein I shall bee very briefe and that is concerning the evills that arise out of the benefices and dignities of the Clergy the common cause being from the inequalitie of the distribution of them much resembling a disease very ordinary at this time amongst children which they call the rickets wherein the nourishment goeth all to the upper parts which are over great and monstrous and the lower parts pine away and so it is in the Clergy some are so poore that they cannot attend their ministerie but are faine to keepe Schooles nay Ale-houses some of them and some others are so stately they will not attend their ministery and so betweene them the flocke starves but our evills have more especially proceeded from the excessive worldly wealth and dignities of one part of the Clergy I meane such as either are in possession or in hopes of Bishoprickes for these great places of profit and honour first have beene the baites of ambition and then they became the apples of contention and last of all the seeds of superstition the one being a step and degree unto the other and all of them leading in the end to the corruption that I may not say subversion of our Religion Sir they are first the baits of ambition and I know not by what secret cause but experience sheweth us that when Clergy men have once tasted the sweete of wordly wealth and honours they are more eager and ambitious after them then any other sort of men hereupon other godly Ministers that live more according to the simplicity of the Gospel and the example of Christ and his Apostles cannot but beare witnesse against their worldly pompe and dignities and so the fires of contention breaketh forth And truely Sir the state of the Clergy is very like to fire which whil'st it keepes in the chimney it is of excellent use to warme those that approach unto it but if it once breake out into the house and get upon the house top it sets all on fire So whilest the Clergy keepe themselves within the pulpit they are of great use to stir up the zeale and devotion of Christians but if they once flye out into the house if they begin to meddle with Civill places and jurisdictions and especially if they once get up to the Counsell-table it is seldome seene but that length they set all on fire and what is it that maketh the fire to breake out of the chimney but too much fuell if there be but a moderate proportion of fuel the fire keepes it selfe within it's bounds but if you heape fagot upon fagot a whole cart-load together then it breaketh out so Sir if there bee a competent maintenance for the ministerie they wil keepe themselves within their bounds but if living bee heaped upon living and temporalities added to spiritualities the flame will soone breake out and set the house on fire Sir I doe not envy the wealth or greatnes of the Clergy but I am very confident if those were lesse they would be better and doe more service to Christ and his Church and I am very cleare in mine owne heart that the livings of the Clergie being more equally distributed the service of God would bee so farre from receiving any prejudice that it would bee much advanced and withall a good proportion of revenue might return againe unto the Crowne from whence it was first derived Sir Bishopricks Deanaries and Chapiters are like to great wasters in a wood they make no proofe themselves they cumber the ground whereon they stand and with their great armes and boughes stretched forth on every side partly by their shade and partly by their sowre droppings they hinder all the young wood under them from growing and thriving To speake plaine English these Bishops Deanes and Chapiters doe little good themselves by preaching or otherwise and if they were felled a great deale of good timber might be cut out of them for the uses of the Church and Kingdome at this time A fresh stoole of three or foure able Ministers might spring up in their stead to very good purpose in those great townes which are ordinarily the seates of those Episcopal and Collegiate Churches and the private congregations of divers parochiall Churches might thrive and grow better which now have the Sun of Gods word I meane the cleare and spirituall preaching thereof kept from them and live in the dangerous shade of ignorance by reason that all the meanes is taken from them and appropriated unto Bishops or to Deanries Chapters and other such like Collegiate Churches Besides such as doe begin to grow and start up through the voluntary pains of some amongst them or by such preaching as they themselves have procured by their voluntary contributions should not still bee dropped on as they are from the armes and appendances of those great wasters and kept downe continually by their bitter persecutions That which remaines now is to shew how these great revenues and dignities become the seeds of superstition and that is thus The Clergy in the maintenance of their greatnesse which they are neither willing to forgoe nor yet well able to maintaine upon the principles of the reformed Religion finding that the popish principles whereon the Bishop of Rome built his greatnesse to suite well unto their ends that maketh them to side with that party and that must needs bring in superstition and as ambition allureth on the one side so the principles they goe by draw them on farther and farther and happily at length farther then they themselvs at first intended Whether a reconciliation with Rome were imagined or no by some I leave it to every one to judge within himselfe but sure I am if an accommodation could have been made in some fashion or other with the Church of Rome the Clergy might againe be capable of forraine preferments and Cardinalls capps and this is no small temptation Now Sir I am at an end onely I shall draw out three conclusions which I conceive may clearely be collected out of what I have sayd First that civill jurisdiction in the persons of Clergy men together with their great revenues and high places of dignity is one great cause of the evills which wee suffer in matter of religion Secondly that the sole and arbitrary power of Bishops in the ordaining and depriving of Ministers and in excommunication and absolution is another great cause of the evills we suffer in matter of Religion Thirdly the strict urging of Subscription and Conformity to the Ceremonies and Canons of the Church is another great cause of Evill which we suffer in matter of Religion And now my humble motion is that we should take a piece only of this subject into our consideration but the whole matter and that not only that part of the Ministers remonstrance which hath been read should be referred unto the Committee which you are about to name but Londons petition also and all other petitions of the like nature so soone as they shall be reade in the house and that the Committee may collect out of them all such heads as are fit for the consideration of this house and surely that is fit to be considered that happily will not be thought fit to be altered consideration is one thing and alteration another where there is a mixture of bad and good together the whole must be consired that wee may know how to sever the good from the bad and so retaine the one and reject the other which is all that I desire And if any thing have fallen from me more inconsiderate as in so long a discourse many things may have done I humbly crave the pardon of the house protesting that I have spoken nothing but with a mind which is ready to sacrifice the body it dwelleth in to the peace and safety of his Majesties Kingdomes and the safety and honour of his Majestie in the Government of them FINIS