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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

borne but stedfastly opposed to their great reproach dammage and danger many wayes the corruptions in our Church-government worship and Leiturgie and have beene lights and leaders to these latter times therein yet alwayes in a peaceable and regular way as not on the one side to subject themselves to suspitious inventions so on the other not sinfully to separate from the Communion and true worship of Churches accounting it more agreeable to all rules of pietie charitie and Christian prudence to tolerate for the time what they could not mend rather than to rent and teare all in peeces to an utter ruine To conclude though perhaps some few particulars in this treatise may seeme more questionable yet for the maine I doubt not but the Authors have held close to the truth both in their owne positions and in opposing their adversaries By which therefore good Reader thou maiest reape much benefit for thy better settling in these unsettled times if thou be capable thereof and if the Lord shall please to adde his blessing thereunto Which hee shall never cease to pray for who is all that he is truly thine in Him W R. THE PREFACE of the AUTHORS of the Treatise ensuing to the READER THE holy Apostle Saint Paul writing unto the Galathians these words Brethren If any man be fallen by occasion into any fault you which are spirituall restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse considering thy selfe lest thou also be tempted both sheweth the danger of falling whereunto they are subject who stand in the Church of God and prescribeth the dutie of recovering those that are fallen unto such as are spirituall That is to say as are furnished with gifts thereunto with the manner how all that ought to be performed two necessary points in our judgements to be considered and much tending to the preservation of the good and happy estate of the Church of God for how cometh it to passe that Sathan so farre prevaileth against it but for that weake men consider not the danger of falling untill they be downe and almost past recovering those that are fallen either not at all or not untill they be well neere without remedy It is therefore one especiall part of holy wisedome for men who think they stand to take heed lest they fall and therefore to seeke to kneow the depth of Sathans pollicies and subtilties and then the effectuall means for the preventing of them Into which if they carefully enquire they shall finde that though hee seeke to draw even those that have shined as starres in the Church from heaven unto the earth yet that he much more earnestly laboureth to make them wandring starres forsaking the place wherein they seemed to be fixed to give shine and direction to others that is though hee laboureth and endeavoureth to bring men from their first love and zeale unto a lukewarmnesse or key coldnesse in the Church yet he rather desireth to lead them into a fierie spirit and indiscreet zeale from the Church and societie of Saints which no doubt he doth as for many other causes so for these two 1. That he might by their departure who have seemed zealous and godly professors shake the faith of others and cause them to doubt that they are not in the true Church where they may finde directions toward the kingdome of heaven and at last to flie from it as from Babylon And 2. that he might deprive those men themselves of the happy meanes of the recovery which they might have had easily applyed had they beene in the Church and remained in the fellowship thereof Hence it is that in the Church of God those who breaking the holy bands of love and faith have like unkinde children forsaken her their naturall mother and oft pleaded with her as a strumpet which never was done in more convenient manner then of late by certain of our brethren who having been brought forth of the wombe and brought up in the bosome of the Church of England have not onely renounced as a stepmother but condemned her as one of the daughters yea the eldest daughter of the very whore of Babylon railing on her as if she living in continuall spirituall fornications brought forth sonnes and daughters not unto Christ but unto Antichrist his adversary By which their faults and fallings as they have deprived themselves of those gracious blessings which they did long and might have still enjoyed amongst us to their soules health and made the meanes of their recovery more hard and difficult so have they troubled and disquieted many remaining in the body of our Church and of strong men in the truth brought them to be children again in understanding easie to bee carried about with every blast of diverse and strange doctrines how contrary soever to the truth according unto godlinesse either taught or received by them The case thus standing we take it to be our duties being members and Ministers of this Church having by Gods grace received some though a small measure of gifts fit thereunto as to maintaine the credit of the Church wherein we live And to justifie the practise of our ministerie therein so farre forth as truth will permit so chiefely to seeke and endeavour both the recoverie of those that are strayed from the sheepfold of Christ amongst us and also the stay of those that are ready to runne after them together with the better grounding and confirming of them who remaine in the flocke with comfort under their shepheards which duty we have endeavoured to performe heretofore by publike preaching and private conferences as occasions hath beene offered and now have bestowed our labours in writing this treatise following to the same end wherein after wee have proved by certaine reasons that our Assemblies are the true Church of God we take upon us to shew First The foure chiefest exceptions they take against our Church for warranting Schisme and separation from us are vaine and frivelous Secondly That the maine grounds they stand upon for the erecting their new Church are weake and slender Thirdly that the best arguments that they use for condemning us and justifying themselves are loose and unsufficient which points as we have gathered out of their printed books and written papers where they were before scattered and brought into one forme and body so have we more plainely and nakedly both proposed and dealt in passing by all impertinent and offensive matters And their flouting declamations petitions exclamations and bitter reviling speeches against our Churches Ministers and people all their reprochfull slanderous profane scornings fearefull blasphemies against the Word preached and Sacraments administred prayers and holy exercises of Religion used in our Assemblies wherewith their writings and printings swell to some bignes as Bladders puffed up with winde All these though wee have given the Reader some taste of their spirit in them yet have wee not in our Treatise stood upon them for that wee judge them not worthy the answer This worke

societie They yet remember it is a part of wisdome to stay the full establishing of their Church and practise of the Ordinances thereof for a time that they may see what blessings of God bee upon it for the ratifying and approving of their doings for if it bee of God it will stand as an house founded upon a a sure Rocke if it bee of men it will come to naught A third sort to whom we commend this worke of ours are our stronger brethren which continue with comfort in the societie of their Church them wee intreat that if they finde any confirmation or strengthening unto their consciences by the pursuing hereof any increase of knowledge and ability to maintaine the truth of our Church Sacraments and word to defend the lawfulnesse of our ministerie and practise of Gods externall worship amongst us That first they praise God whose gift it is that any thing is spoken or written for their edification instruction and consolation and then bestow the same as occasion shall be offered to the reclaiming of those that are straied and holding them that are ready to wander Wee lastly commend this simple travell of ours to the Church of God whereof we are unworthy Ministers beseeching her to accept our poore endeavours the rather for that wee are not ignorant that the labours which we have taken in this cause will be diversly judged of according to the manner and affection of those men to whom this worke shall come Some as namely our deceived Brethren against whom we deale will hold it damnable and execrable as being bestowed against the Church of Christ against the Saints and children of God against the holy Truth taught in the Testament of Christ yea and that contrary to the light of our own consciences and knowledge of our owne hearts To the first part of this their charge and accusation we answer That whether they or wee be the true Church of God whether they or wee have the Truth taught in the Testament of Christ is the matter in controversie betwixt us If wee be the Church of God and have the Truth of Christ as we hope shall appeare by this Treatise then have they written and spoken against the Church of God and that in most shamefull and fearefull manner If they be the true Church of God and have his Truth which we assure our selves they shall be never able to prove then have wee spent our labours against the Church of God But have we done it wittingly and willingly against the light of our hearts This is indeed the second part of their charge but who made them the searchers of our hearts and judges of our consciences that they should accuse us to Im other and quench the light of Truth which hath shined into our soules especially when they heare our protestations to the contrary where is that Charitie that thinketh none evill which hopeth all things we say therefore unto the second part of their accusation with the Apostle We say the Truth in Christ our consciences bearing us witnesses in the holy Ghost that we can say nothing against the Truth but for the Truth wittingly and willingly And in the Testamonie thereof we pray God that our tongues may cleave to the roofe of our mouthes when we endeavour to speake and that our pennes may sticke to the ends of our fingers when wee attempt to write any thing against the Church Children or Truth of God Some others Fathers and Brethren Ministers and Members with us of this Church finding by our manner of writeing of what judgemeut wee are will hold our paines requisite and necessarie to stay the course of these waters which wee have given passage unto and to make up the breaches wee have opened by speaking against the government established in this Church the Ceremonies used therein and other our unadvised dealings in the execution of our Ministrie To these men wee say first that as we have beene and are perswaded of the Truth of these things which we have delivered touching the defects and wants the blemishes and deformities of this Church So have we in the sincerity and uprightnesse of our hearts dealt for the redresse and Reformation thereof Wherein though we know nothing by our selves before men more then Truth will permit if they should have taken occasion by our doctrine which we perswade our selves to be the doctrine of the Truth to make this Schisme Yet were this no reason to reprove us unlesse those men which have set downe true positions be to be blamed as Authors of the false Collections and Conclusions which are inferred and gathered thereupon Secondly wee answer That our deceived Brethren do no lesse condemne those Churches of God as the Synagogues of Sathan where the doctrine which wee have taught touching the government of the Church and matters of Ceremonies is maintained and where all things which wee hold offensive in our Church are abolished then they doe the Church of England insomuch that they have written of the Church of Geneva which is holden to be the best pattern of a Reformed Church that it became a miserable president and pernicious example even unto all Europe whereby it is evident that they have beene brought unto this Scisme by some other inducements then the dealing of those men in-the execution of their Ministrie who are charged to be the occasions if not the Authors thereof Thirdly there is such difference and plaine contradiction betweene them and us in judgement yea in the matter of discipline and Church government besides many other materiall points of doctrine as we marvell any men should esteeme us causes of their defections from this Church much more that any man should write That between the Brownists and others he meaneth them and us there is no controversie as touching the framing of a Church by the word of God A third sort of our loving Brethren approving our care of Gods Church and desire to reclaime poore deceived soules will yet happily esteeme our labour altogether needlesse and superfluous as spent and bestowed both against a cause that hath so little shew of truth and semblance of probabilitie nay so evident appearance of falshood and vanity as it is rather to be despised then confuted and also upon men whose zeale and rashnesse so far prevailes over sound judgement and discretion that we shall rather sharpen and increase their humour by thinking them worthy answering to a further contradiction then either informe their understanding by sound reason or alter their affection by efficacie of any perswasion These Brethren wee desire to give us leave to dissent from them who judge far otherwise of this cause wee handle and hope much better of the persons against whom we deale for the cause it selfe we say that though it did appeare as it is indeed full of falshood and and vanitie unto these that have the gift to discerne betweene those things that differ and withall to temper their affections which

us to joyne unto p. 62. THE Church of Engl. is a true Church OF CHRIST I. EXCEPTION THe first Exception is against the whole body of our Assemblies and our Church in Generall which they tearme Babylonish Synagogues and a whorish Idolatrous Church Henry Barrow in his discovery of the false Church Page 24. ANSVVER THat the Church of England is a true Church of Christ Our Congregations are true Churches For Arg. 1. We have and ●oyne together in the use of the preaching of the Gospell and administ ration of the Sacraments and such an one as from which whosoever wittingly and willingly separateth himselfe cutteth himselfe from Christ wee doubt not but the indifferent Reader may be perswaded by these reasons following First Wee enjoy and joyne together in the use of those outward meanes which God in his Word hath ordained for the gathering of a visible Church for proofe whereof wee alleadge that the meanes which we use and enjoy have been effectuall to the unfained conversion of many as may appeare both by the other fruits of faith and by the Martyrdome which sundry have endured that were Members of our Church and had no other meanes of conversion then such as we have Yea even those men who judge so hardly of us now are able to witnesse with us in this case That if their be any true faith and sanctification in them though it bee much increased as they think since they left us yet it was begun and bred in our Assemblies Secondly If these places of holy Scripture Marth 28.20 Eph. s 4.11 14. bee well examined it will bee found that the means which Christ ordained for the gathering of a visible Church are the very same which we enjoy even the preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments That which Henry Barrow saith against us in this point pag. 160. of his discovery viz. that there is not any one thing amongst us either in order or administration according to Christs Testament shall bee hereafter disproved when we shall come to justifie our Ministery of the Word and Sacraments against their arguments or Objection whatsoever Now that this is an infallible and good argument of a true Church appeareth Which is an in fallible note of a true Church because First There cannot any people be named that having these meanes may yet by the word be evicted not to have beene the true Church The Papists indeed bragge of these means but without cause for the doctrine of faith is not preached amongst them but oppugned and consequently they cannot have the true Sacraments which are Seales of righteousnesse Rom. 3.12 9 4. which is by faith Secondly the Scripture every where speaketh of the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments as of priviledges peculiar to the Church of God psalm 147.19.20 So while the Jenes only were the Church these priviledges were restrained to them Matth. 10 56. and never made common to the Gentiles till the partition wall being broken downe Acts 11.19 23. they also were incorporated to the Church of God So the Prophet saith Arg. 2. that this should be the reason why the Gentiles were moved to joyne themselves unto the true Church because there and no where else the Ministerie of the Word was to be found Secondly Our whole Church maketh profession of the true faith The confession of our Church together with the Apologie thereof and those Articles of Religion which were agreed upon in the Convocation House in the Yeare of the Lord 1562. whereunto every Minister of the Land is bound by Law to subscribe so farre forth as they concerne the confession of faith and the doctrine of the Sacraments doe prove this evidently for how shall wee better judge of the faith which our Church professeth than by such evidence Many Papists and Atheists are in our Land wee grant and many ignorant and wicked men besides who make not so cleere and so holy profession of the true faith as they should but that our Church accounteth any one to be her Child or member who either denieth Christ or professeth any other way to salvation then faith which worketh by love or who doth not professe this faith an some measure we confidently deny Now this reason also hath force sufficient to prove us the true Church for as true faith in Christ is that which giveth the life and being to such as are effectually called and so become Members of the Invisible and Elect Church so the profession of true saith is that which giveth life and being to a visible Church Upon this profession wee finde many that have beene incorporated into the visible Church and admitted to the priviledges thereof even by the Apostles themselves Act 8.37 38. 16.31.32 12. Yea and Simon Magus though he had neither faith nor the spirit of God yet because he made profession of faith was judged a member of the visible Church and baptized So the Church of Pergamus Act. 8 13. Revel 2.12 15. though it did toletate grosse corruptions in it it kept the faith of Christ and denied not his faith and was still called the Church of God The description of a Church which they give in the page 67. See our further answer to this in the defence we make for our people against the second Article of their third exception of their collection of Letters and conferences viz. That it is a company of faithfull people that truly worship Christ and readily obey him is utterly untrue it it be understood as needs it must of the visible Church for it every one that the Church may account a visible member be truly faithfull how is our Saviour to bee understood when he compareth the Church or Ministery to a draw-net which being east into the Sea gathereth as well that which must be cast away as good Fish * Matth. 13.47 48. And to a field where the Devill doth as busily sow tares as the Sonne of Man doth good Wheate * Matth. 13.37 39. or how shall that difference stand which the Scripture maketh betwixt the Lords judgment and the judgment of men if men may not account any members of the Church by their outward appearance and profession 1 Sam. 1617. Acts 13.28 unlesse they know them to have true faith which thing the Lords eye is only able to discerne Thirdly We hold and teach and maintaine against all Heretickes Arg. 3. and adversaries every part and Article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall and such as without the knowledge and believing whereof there is no salvation Our confessions Catechismes Articles of Religion published and approved of our Church may perswade all indifferent men of this Yet was not Henry Barrow ashamed to write in the 10th page of his discovery That all the Lares of God both of the first and second Table are here broken and forsaken both of the Ecclesiasticall and

unlawfull for us to yeeld some kinde of obedience to Bishops so doe we performe it in our whole administration by going to their Courts by standing and falling at their commandement Whereunto we answer First that so long as the Christian Magistrate requireth we should yield obedience to the Bishops and that with this limitation viz. only in things lawfull and honest wee thinke it not unlawfull for us to give obedience to them in those things they doe by civill authoritie though neither themselves nor the Magistrate might well require us to doe for even our Saviour Himselfe yeelded obedience to Cesar in such a thing wherein Caesar could not lawfully exact obedience of him as for the excommunication and suspentions Mat. 17.24 27 and such other censures as are meerely Ecclesiasticall We answer As the true Church of God which from the Lord Iesus hath received these keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven did though unadvisedly and unlawfully deliver them over into the hands of the Bishops And the Bishops being Preachers of the Word though they should not have this power wholly committed unto them yet are they capable of it We see not how it should be utterly unlawfull to reverence and yeeld to the censures of Christs Church being exercised and administred even by them unlesse wee will say that the Church presently looseth her right and power to censure Offenders when she committeth it unto any such men as unto whom of right either not at all or not of right only it belongeth Secondly Secondly Not bind our selves thereto by oath so far as we doe Now as wee may lawfully yeeld some obedience to the Bishops in these things so wee may lawfully binde our selves by oath to doe it if our oathes be required or us by the Christian Magistrates anthoririe especially seeing we doe by oath binde our selves to obey in regard of the civill authoritie which is committed to them by the Christian Magistrate Thirdly For our going to their Courts this we answer That seeing we doe testifie in our callings our dislike to the vile and odious corruptions of their Courts And doe also utterly refuse to yeeld obedience to any o● their unlawfull decrees we cannot justly bee condemned for appearing intheir Courts or any other place whereunto we are by His Majesties authoritie summoned And whereas the persons before whom wee appeare are judged usually corrupt and enemies to that Reformation which wee desire and some of them also such as being no ministers themselves do by all meanes seeke the disgrace of our calling and the utter discoutagement of such Christians as in whom they perceive any sparkes of true zeale wee account this our appeating at their Courts not onely for an abridgment of our libertie but also for such a burthen as wee have just cause to groane under and to pray that God would in His good time move His Majesties heart to eate us of it And yet as the Apostle being free was content for the Churches sake not onely to become bound in serving it with the labour of his hands but also by subjecting himselse to those Ceremonies which in Christ were abolished so may and ought we for the Churches sake to beare this burden rather than to forsake or refuse the ministerie when the Lord hath called and fitted us unto it For our yeelding to the suspentions and deprivations wee answer That so long as the Bishops suspend and deprive according to the Law of the Land wee account of the action herein Fourthly To cease from the execution of our ministerie when they suspend or deprive us as of the act of the Church which wee may and ought to reverence and yeeld unto if they doe otherwise wee have liberty given us by the Law to appeale from them if it bee said that the Church is not to bee obeyed when it suspends and deprives us for such causes as wee in our Consciences know to be insufficient We answer That it lyeth in them to depose that may ordaine and they may shut that may open And that as he may with a good conscience execute a ministerie by the ordination and calling of the Church who is privie to himselfe of some unfitnesse if the Church will presse him to it so may he who is privie to himselfe of no fault that deserveth deprivation cease from the execution of his ministery when he is pressed thereunto by the Church And if a guiltlesse person put out of his charge by the Churches authoritie may yet continue in it what proceedings can there bee against guiltie persons who in their owne conceit are alwaies guiltlesse or will at least pretend so to be Seeing they also will bee readie alwayes to object against the Churches judgment that they are called of God and may not therefore give over the execution of their ministerie at the will of man And yet admitting it were meerely unlawfull Fourthly If this obedience wee yeeld to them were utterly unlawfull yet may we be true Ministers of Christ notwithstanding upon any respect to yeeld any new obedience at all to the censures of the Bishops yet how will it follow that this our unlawfull yeelding hath force sufficient to make us ipso fasto no true Ministers unlesse you will say that the High Priests who were in Christs time that took and left their offices at the will of tyrants and heathen Princes Were therefore not to be accounted Priests for further answer hereunto we referre the Reader to that which wee have above said to the fourth thing which they object against the whole body of our Assemblies And to that also which wee have already answered unto the fourth reason which they bring against our office The speech of the Apostls The speech of the Apostles Acts 4.19 20 15. most unskilfully alleaged against us 1 Tim. 6.2 which they are wont to object against us in this case may easily appeare how unskilfully it is alleadged to them that will consider these three differences betweene their case and ours First they that inhibited the Apostles were knowne and professed enemies to the Gospell Secondly the Apostles were charged not to teach in the name of Christ nor to publish any part of the Doctrine of the Gospell which commandement might more hardly bee yeelded unto then this of our Bishops who though they cannot indure them which teach that part of the truth that concerneth the good government and reformation of the Church yet are they not only content that the Gospell should bee preached but are also preachers of it themselves Thirdly The Apostles received not their calling and authority from men (c) Galath 2.1 nor by the hands of men but immediately from God Himselfe and therefore also might not bee restrained or deposed by men whereas wee though we exercise a function whereof God is the Author and we are also called of God to it yet are we called and ordeined by the hand and ministerie of men and may therefore by men

in the Reformation of their lives because partly for that they knew it not and partly for that they are hindred by authoritie they practise not the whole discipline of Christ And this rash judgment which they give of our people is so much the more blame-worthy because they cannot be ignorant with what care our people have sought by all good and dutifull meanes the Reformation of the Church And how much they have be wailed and mourned for the want thereof for which matter also wee referre the Reader to the answer we have above given to their fourth and fifth objections against the whole body of our Assemblies Secondly Our people deserve not to be blamed for that they erect not the discipline for First They esteeme both our Prince to be a most lawfull and a Christian Magistrate and our Ministers to bee true Ministers of Christ by whose meanes seeing they have received from God and do still enjoy not those blessings only that belong to the comfort of this life but the meanes of eternall happinesse and the effectuall assurance of it also they are justlie afraid that by enterprising a publike Reformation not only without but contrary to the direction and liking of them who by Gods Word ought to have if not the only yet the principall hand in that worke they should highly offend God 2. They cannot finde any warrant in holy Scripture for them that are private Members of the Church to erect the discipline no not though the Magistrate and Ministers who should deale in this worke were altogether profane and ungodlie in deviding the Land of Canaan which was a type of Heaven and of the Church under the Gospell and in all the Church causes that were dealt in under the government of Iosua which was a type of Christs government neither private persons nor the whole multitude had the managing of matters Iosh 19.51 21 1. 22 14 but the people did all by the Elders and chiefe Fathers a which also was commanded b Numb 34.16.28 So in publike Church causes under the Gospell the Lord hath ordained certaine speciall men chosen out from among the people by their consent to rule and governe the rest c 1 Tim. 5.17 4.14 And where God hath sanctified and separated a speciall sort of men to any office or the administration thereunto belonging there hath hee restrained all others that are not of the same sort from doing the actions properly belonging to that office as may well appeare by comparing these places of holy Scripture together d Numbr 4.15 with the first Chron 13.7 10 Num. 4.20 with 1 Sam. 6.19 Num. 16.40 3.10 Heb. 5.4 with 2 Chron. 26.16 19. Acts 14.23 Therefore also wee see the faithfull at Listra ●conium and Antiochiah l ad no Elders till the Apostles by their consent ordained them No more had they at Creta till Ti●us was sent to that purpose To the places of holy Scripture which they alleadge for this their second Objection against our people we answer First That some of them a Ier. 31.34 Ezech. 44.8 9. Cant. 4.7 1 Pet. 2.9 Acts 15.9 concerne the invisible Church and therfore are ignorantly applyed to the description of them that are members of the Church visible As if no measure of faith and holinesse were to be allowed by men in the judging of the members of the Church visible but that onely which the Lord Himselfe alloweth of in juding of the elect Members of the visible Church Whereas it is evident that to the making of the Members of the visible Church an outward obedience and profession of faith is sufficient though there be no inward grace nor truth in the heart Secondly That some of them require indeed that every Christian should seeke the Kingdome of God and the place where God is worshipped according to his Word submit themselves to the Yoke of Christ and to obey him in all his Ordinances but that the people without either the Magistrate or Ministers helpe or consent should reform the Church and erect the discipline they are so farre from commanding that if they be well compared with that wee have above said they will be found to command the contrarie The third thing they object against our people Is That though some of them had once beene faithfull yet by tollerating in their Assemblies the open prophane by wanting power to cast them out and communicateing with them in their worship of God they are now become not ue Church of Christ Whereunto we answer First that the godly which are in our Assemblies do not at all tollerate the wicked profane but doe as much as in them lieth shew their dislike to them mourning also for their profanenesse and for the want of Christian discipline whereby they might be separated Yea the very Lawes of our Church as hath beene above said doe separate from our Assemblies the open prophane Secondly admit they did not at all shut out the prophanie either because they know not their right or for that they are hindred and restrained to doe it or that they sin in not using their right in this case or if it were granted that the people even the private members of the assemblies had full authoritie given them by Christ without the Ministers or Magistrates consent to cast out and excommunicate the open profane the contrary whereof hath been before sufficiently proved yet might they as lawfully for want of power or for such inconveniences tollerate the prophanie amongst them and so forbeare the execution of their authoritie in this case as either David did spare Joab 2 Sam 3 39. 2. Kings 14 5. or Amaziah those rebels that slew his father because they were not strong enough doe justice upon them Thirdly the communicating in Gods service with these open sinners Thirdly they may be true members of the Church though they doe communicate in Gods worship with the open profane as may appeare by the example of the godly that lived under the law whom the godly in some of our assemblies are enforced to communicate with or to want the benefit of Gods publike worship is not sufficient either to make him profane or pollute unto them the holy things of God for proofe whereof we alleadge First the examples of the godly that lived under the Ceremoniall law The Prophets either served not God at all in the Temple or else they joyned in Gods service with many that were notoriously stained with grosse sinnes for who are they whose sinnes the Prophets so mightily cry out upon (d) Esay 1.10 Jer. 5.1.9 and 7 8.11 Ezek. 16 4●.52 and 22 25.26 but such as were admitted to the publike worship of God If the Babylonians and the Caldeans should violently have included themselves into the Church assemblies of Gods people in the time of their captivitie should the godly Jewes by such presence of the wicked which they wanted power to hinder either have beene perswaded to cease

sufficiently manifested to the Church and that our Church hath beene sufficiently convinced of many grosse corruptions but that for the want of some parts of discipline our Church should be no Church or that for the corruptions amongst us our Ministers should be no true Ministers or our people no faithfull people which are the very fundamentall principles of their Schisme and almost the very matter of difference betwixt them and us In these points wee deny that either to this day they have sufficiently convinced us or that before the first time of their separation they had in any measure used meanes to convince us Secondly after they had convicted us in Judgement they should have by brotherly admonition and exhortation sought to perswade us unto the love and practise of the truth revealed and to the hatred and forsaking of the manifested corruptions (b) 2 Thes 3.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.15 which is evident they did not before their separation Thirdly the Scripture forbiddeth the Church to eject a private member till in all patience and long suffering his repentance hath been waited for and the fruit of the aforesaid meanes expected (c) 2 Thes 3.14.15 2 Tim. 2.24 25 and 2 Tim. 4.2 which evidently reproveth their hastie and sudden departure from us either before or suddenly after they had used the meanes abovesaid especially seeing that in all reason more long-sufferance should be vsed by such private members as they were toward a whole Church than by a whole Church towards private members Fourthly whereas they should have used all the meanes abovesaid in meeknesse humilitie and love mourning also for the hardnesse of our hearts whereby the meanes became frustrate unto us d Ephes 4.15 2 Tim. 2.25 Tit. 3.2 Heb. 10.24.25 It is evident that their zeale in dealing against us hath beene like the rash and undiscreet zeale spoken of and reproved in the sons of Zebedeus e Mar. 3.5 Luke 9.55 And hath favoured altogether of uncharitablenesse and not of love for as all they that once have declined to that Schisme are found to be exceedingly proud and disdainfull to wards all that are contrary minded yea even such as before they were infected with that leaven were patternes of all love modesty and humility unto others so will they not acknowledge nor reverence any of the most excellent graces that God hath given unto any of his servants amongst us nor so much respect them as the very Papists will doe no they professe greater detestation and despite to the most godly and most sincere men amongst us then they doe to such as are most notorious in profannesse and malice to the truth To which purpose also wee desire that the spirit whereby Henry Barrow was directed in writing his last bookes may be well examined Fiftly whereas by the equitie of the rule which our Saviour himselfe giveth and according to the practise of the Apostolike Church wee should have had our corruptions made knowne to some other Reformed Churches and by them we should have beene convinced and admonished before these our brethren could rightly judge us as heathens and publicanes we affirme that they as if the Word of God had come out from them or had come unto them onely have by their disorderly separation not onely despised and robbed us of our right but all other christian Churches in the world besides Sixtly they have not so much as protested the cause of their separation from us to the particular Congregations whereof before their departure they were accounted by others and did also acknowledge themselves to be members Seaventhly those of them which once exercised the places of the Ministrie amongst us and received for the same the reward due which they call Balaams wages have not before or since their departure made actuall restitution of that which was if their opinions be true most unjustly received nor yet shewed themselves willing so to doe to their abilitie which norwithhstanding by the law of God they are most strictly bound to doe The scond Article in their conclusion is this That the Assemblies which they goe and joyne themselves unto are such as the Word of God commandeth them to goe unto whereunto we give this answere That if they had followed the direction of Gods Word when they had left us for our coruptions and wants as they charge us with they should have joyned themselves to some other Reformed Churches which are pure from our corruptions and amongst whom the discipline of Christ is rightly established as we finde the faithfull Levites and people did in the dayes of Iiroboam and every wise hearted Christian will hold it to be a reason of great force against them that they have made separation not from us onely but from all other Reformed Churches in the world For there by they appeare to have beene of this judgement that till they arose there was not a true cōstituted visible Church in the whole world knowne unto them unto which they might have joyned themselves Secondly the Assemblies which they erected and joyned themselves unto if they be looked into with a Christian and indifferent eye shall well appeare to be much more deformed than many of those are which they have for saken for proofe whereof we desire the Readers to weigh well with the weights of the Sanctuary and to try by the touchstone of the Word certaine points of doctrine which they have both brewed and broached to the world in their printed Books Then secondly their practise and dispositions All their Paradoxes and absurd opinions we will not set downe but in some few we will give the Readers a taste of the rest In the 138. page of their discovery they affirme That such an Idolatrous shape cleaveth to every stone of our Materiall Charches as by no meanes can be severed from them while there is a stone left standing upon a stone so that neither they can be used to the worship of God nor we have any use of them seeing that they are execrable and devoted to destruction In the 167. page of the same booke they teach That to every Christian God hath given his boly sanctifying spirit to open unto them and to l●ade them in to all truth Much like unto this is that which they wright in the 161. page of their refutation That it is an execrable position to say that the Church and every member thereof is in some spirituall bondage to sinne Touching the Magistrates authority besides that by the whole tenour of their writings it appeareth that they hold the people may take in hand the publike Reformation of the Church and erect the whole discipline not only without but contrary to the Christian Magistrates liking and consent they doe also directly affirme page 218 and 219. of their discovery That God hath in the holy Scripture made most perfect and necessary Lawes both for the Church and Common-wealth and that he requireth of the King and Magistrase to see their