you further bring aginst vs forreyn churches and speciall persons the chiefest lights of this age first mind whither this be not â—lso â— ground of Popery so to presse humane authority and whether the Papists cannot for many of theâ—r heresies allege the ancient fathers the chiefests lights of their ages whome your selues I suppose will not deny but to be spirituall seing their testâ—monies are often alleged by your church in pulpits and in print Secondly this your dealing is such as both the better sort of the late Fathers as Augustine for example who was of mâ—nde that counsels Bishops c. ought not to be obiected for triall of controuersies but the holy scriptures onely and the very superstitious Popelings themselues haue condemned saying that we are rather to beleeu â—ne priuatâ— faithfull man then a whol Councel and the Pope himselfe if a man haue better aâ—thorety reason on his side Thirdly your obiection and pleading against vs is much like as if the Iewes should haue obiected against Christianity thus It is not needfull to saluation to beleeu that Iesus who was crucâ—fied is the Christ for then it would be cleerly set down in scripture to the vnderstanding of the spirituall Dan 12 10 Prou 8 9 but that it is not for the thousands of priests and people of Israel Gods own people among whom are the chiefest lights of this age the Rabbines expounders of the law c. which are vndoubtedly spirituâ—ll are of contrary judgment to you his disciples Iob 7 47 48 49.52 Fourthly as I haue before answered forreyn churches and the lights in them haue cleerly seen the things we stand for and doe asseâ—t with vs touching separation from Antichristianisme gathering into and walking in a holy communion of Saincts and other poynts of greatest moment between you and vs. as their Harmony of Confessions besides other particular books many doe testify If you obiect their particular judgment of your churches estate I answer that is not needfull to saluation therefore they may misse in it and yet be spirituall for if men iâ— their own churches profesâ—e and walke in the truth so farr as God giues them to see and thinke better of other churches then they doe deserue such errors even the most spirituall are subiect vnto It was cleerly revealed in scriptures that the Gentiles should be called vnder the Gospell Deut 32.43 Gen. 12 3 Psal. 67. 117 Isa. 11.10 Chrâ—st â—imself plainly confirmed and commanded it Mat 28.19 Iohn 10 16 Act 1 8. Yet the Apostle Peter himselfe and many other spirituall men perceiued it not till in more speciall and particular weise it was to them reuealed Act. 10.14 28 34 3â— 11 2 â— 18. As Peter and many other godly then fayled in esteeming worse of the Gentiles then they should so learned and godly men now may fayl in esteeming better of your estâ—tâ— then it doth deseruâ— The 5. Argument WHatsoeuer church is the mother of the faithfull is a true visible church but the best of our assemblies are c. Ergo true visible churches The preposition is true because that regeneration and new birth is onely ordirarily wrought by the word preached Rom 10.8.17 Iam. 1.18 1 Pet. 1 23. which is onely and ordinarily found in the visible Church Gal 5 26. 1 Iohn â— 5. The assumption is true because many are ordinarily new borne in our best assemblies by the ordinance of preaching in publick vse and force as appeareth by Mr Iohnsons foresayd confession as also by the meanes of the causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith in the hearers and efficacie thereof Esa. 55 11 Rom. 10.17 and lastly â—y the infallible effects of faith and fruits of the spirit appearing in the true members of our best assemblies Gal. 5 6 22. Answer HEre you seem to bring a new argument though it be but the old in a new coat for take away this mantel wherewith your Major is clothed The mother of the faithfull and all the rest wil be but regeneration and new birth wrought as you say by the preaching in your best assemblies Which things we heard in your third argument and there refuted As you here vrge them agayn I further answer first to your proposition Whatsoever church say you is the mother of the faithfull is a true visible church But Israel say I in her idolatrous estate was the mother of the faithfull yet was she not in that estate a true visible church therfore your proposition is not true That Israel then was the mother of the faithfull appeareth by the words of the Lord Plead with your mother Hos 2 2 That they which were willed thus to plead were the faithfull appereth by theâ—r names Ammi Ruhamah that is My people and she that hath obteyned mercy That yet notwithstanding this mother was not a true visible church appeareth by the Plea to be made against her She is not my wife neyther am I her husbaÌ„d her estate being as elsewhere is sayd without the true God and her children that continewed in her idolatrie should obteyn no mercy Thus you see a church may be sayd to be the mother of the faithfull and yet not be a true Church of God You would confirme the proposition to be true because regeneration and new birth is ordinarily wrought by the word preached which is one lie and ordinarily found in the visible church I answer the word preached is to be found also in the false church as among Papists Anabaptists Anabaptists c. as ordinarie if not more ordinarie then â—n many of youâ— assemblies and although there be not such or so many truthes â—aught among them as are among you yet the word that is taught hath effect for sanctâ—fication of life in as great measure as ordinarâ—ly appeareth in your Church of Engl. where so much profannes reigneth as all men see and know The church of Rome is as your selues prâ—feâ—â—e a falâ—e church yet doubt I not neyther doe I thinke you doubt but sundrie children haue been borne vnto God by that harlot The church of Enâ—land it as we professe a false church your Ministery also falâ—e yet God which brought light out of darknesse hath brought forth I doâ—bt not and saued many of his dear châ—ldren among you But let not thiâ— embolden the rest to continew with you in your false estâ—te least they finde no mercy with the Lord because they be children of fornications To your assumption then I answer as you first set it down I graunt it yet will not your conclusion follow for it may be a mother of the faithfull and yet no true visible church for the reason foreshewed But as you afterward explain your selfe saying the assumption is true because many aâ—e ordinarily new borne c. I deny it thus to be true because neyther is a new birth ordinarily to be had among you neither haue you Gods ordinance of preaching in publick vse and
of al men by that word if men eyther will not trie nor giue sentence at all or doe judge amisse we are not bound to wayt vpon them but must liue by our own faith The reformed churches haue been wrâ—â—ten to by vs for we know and acknowledge them to be true churcheâ— and our brethren in the Lord they giue vs no Answer Shall wee coÌ„tinew still â—n boÌ„dage to Antichrâ—st til they bid vs com out What scripture teacheth vs so If they or any convince vs of error or evill and we yeeld not leâ— vs be esteemed accordingly otherwise if we walke in the truth and they will not approue it be it vpon them as they shal answer befâ—re the Lord. Mr. Iunius whom you mention to reply so sharply neyther approueth your Church nor condemneth our practice no not though he were instantly vrged the writings between him and us are extant to the world let the reader judge what both sides haue sayd Your censure of Mr Barrow or scoffing rather at him neyther hurteth him or vs nor helpeth you His playn dealing in reprouing the corruptions of these times you call rayling it is marvel you say not also the prophets rayled on the people of Israel when they vsed sharp rebukes for I suppose you can hardly shew any hard speech that Mr. Barrow ther writeth which the Prophets and Apostles haue not vsed before But if he were overcaried with some seuere speeches in a good cause‘ neyther we not himselfe euer iustified that infirmitie we know that we are frayl men let the sharpnesse therefore be his but the trueth which he sharply teacheth Gods And why carp you at the manner of his writing and meddle not with the matter That book with others haue discouered the idolatries of your church which neyther by you nor any haue euer yet been answered refuted by the scriptures For your self let the reader iudge what you â—aue sayd The 7 Consideration 7. THe great and grosse disorder and partiallity in administring of your disciplinâ— which George Iohnson sheweth cheerly besides the wants of sunctimony and common duties of godlynes which he sayth are to be found in farr greater measure in the câ—mmâ—n professâ—rs of the church of England and saith further that the Dutch churches take you for a most vnquiet conâ—entious and disorderly people Answer THis article you obiect vnto vs vpon one mans report that was for lying and slandering false accusation and contention himselfe cast out of our Church By what rule or word of God can you admit of the testimony of an excommunicate against a whole congregation Reason also might teach you that no man standing against a church to excommunication will ever speake wel of that church in the cause wherein he standeth But grant that this all were true which he reporteth what would you vrge vpon it that therefore Christianitie which we professe is evill so perhaps a Turk or Iew would doe with as much reason as you can conclude that our separation from you is euill Was there ever any truth think you that men did walke in it as they ought or any Church in the world wherein the discipline as you call it was administred as it should Iulian the Apostata that wrote so much against Christ reading the testimonies of Moses the Prophets and Apostles Deut. 9.7.22.24 Isa. 59 3 4 5 c. Mic. 3.9.11 1. Cor. 5.1.2 11.21.22 c. 3 Iohn 9.10 had as good ground to blame the Israelites and Christians for their manners discipline and consequently to disswade them from their faith as you do vs yea he might allege faithfull and vndeniable witnesses whereas you rely vpon a slanderer Finally what ayme you at in all this but to draw vs back vnto your church and there it is like we shall find discipline without disorder or partiallity to weet in your Bishops courts for there the discipline of your church is to be seen Of which we need say nothing the voyce almost of al the land crieth out of their abominations Onely we obserue how pregnant your perswasions are to make vs beleeu that because there ar sinns in Sion there be none in Babylon The 8 Consideration 8. GOD neuer witnessed for you nor gaue testimony of his approuing your separation whether we consider your ministerie or people For hardly can you shew any one person conuerted by your ministery from papistry or atheisme or other open wickednes as by Gods blessing multitudes haue been by ours but onely haue you seduced and wrought vpon the tender consciences of such as by our ministery were first begotten vnto Christ But which is specially to be obserued from your distracted and devided congregations multitudes haue fallen away to euery kind of impiety herisie reigning in the world Answer IF God approue our seperation and our ministerie by his word as we are surâ— he dooth it is yenoâ—gh though our ministery haue not conuerted any Your reason is as if a Câ—inite should haâ—e sayd vnto Nâ—ah God neuer witneâ—sed for thee nor gaue testimony of his approuing thy building of the Ark for hardly canst thou shew any one person converted by thy precahing or Ark building these 120. yeares Our ministery belongeth to our church the assemblies whereof Papists Athâ—ists such like wicked ones vse not to frequent and how is it poâ—sible â—ur ministery should conuert such as come not to heare it If we wâ—â—ld obiect vnto you that few Turks and Saracens haue been converred by yâ—ur mâ—â—isterie what would you answer Yet where you say â—e can harâ—ly shâ—w my c. we can if need wer shew you many that wer sometime profâ—in irreligious whiles they were of your church but coÌ„mâ—ng and heâ—râ—ng by Gods providence the doctrine of our church haue been reclâ—ymed from their lewd life doe walk holily in the faith with vs. It is true in â—eed that our cause hath wrought most vpoÌ„ such as being somtimes vnâ—er yoâ—r ministery had tender consciences pliable to the truth others of more corrupt consciences haue set against blasphemed it Tâ—e â—â—â—â—ideratioâ— of this in any wise mans iudgment wil rather lead vnto â—hen â—rom our cause when the better sort by your own confession do come vnto vs the worser and refuse remayn stil with you Your last poynt which you would haue specially to be obserued that multitudes haâ—e fallen from vs to every kind of heresie and impietie is indeed worthy to be obserued For first the scripture is fulfilled which sayth mâ—ny shâ—ll â—leaue vnto them faynedly Dan. 11.34 Secondly being fallen if they had com to a more holy faith better walking wheÌ„ they were gone out from vs it might haue importeâ— ours to be evil but now that they haue fallen to grosse heresie impietie it argueth Gods hand so be heavy vp on them because they continued not in the truth with vs. And this the scripture confirmeth saying of such as receiue not the loue of the truth
force If your people were truelâ—e regenerate they would not sinne mâ—stike me not I know the remainders of sinne dwell in the best men and draw them to that they neyther would not ought but as thâ— Apostle sayth He that is borne of God sinneth not And seing so many and great sinns reign in your best assemblies how can you say you are regenerate for I haue before manifested that ordinarilie people are kept and continued among you in an vnholy communion with the wicked and irreligious and nourished with sâ—perstition and idolatrâ— these and the like things are no tokens of true regeneration Mr Iohnsons confession is before treated of and will not import that which you would infer The causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith are not by Esa 55 11 Râ—m 10.17 proued to be among you For there is spoken of the word going out of the Lords mouth but your minâ—sters are not the Lords mouth because they haâ—e not from him their calling sending and authoritie to preach bâ—t haue it from his enemie Antichrist and as the Apostle saith how shal thâ—y preach except they be sent Neither are they as the Lords mouth because they separate not the precious from the vile Ier. 15 19. Neyther are the infallible effects of faith c. proued by Gâ—l 5 6 â—2 to be in the true members of yâ—ur best assemblies For seing faith is there sayd to work by loue and there is no loue of Christ vnlesse men keep his commandements and his commandâ—ments are not kept in your idolatrouâ— assemblies it cannot be affirmed that you loue the Lord if so you contineâ— continew in sinne or that you haue true faith But rather seing the contrary works of the flesh which the Apostle there mentioneth adultery fornication c idolatrie witchcraft hatred c. contentions seditions heresies c. are found in the true members of your church for all among you are baptised and all baptised are true members you are more rightly to be reputed vnregenerate and vnsanctâ—fied in that your sinnfull and confused estate Neyther haue you Christs power in your best assemblies to cast out the wicked from among you but they are fostered fâ—d and blessed with your word prayers sacraments c. and such as absteyn from your idolatrie and from communion with the wicked you hate reproach excommunicate and persecute that your church is indeed a mother to the profane But a stepmother to the faithfull The 6 argument THose Churches for whome the Churches of God reiâ—yce are true Churcheâ— 2. Thes. 1.4 But our best assemblies are such for whome the churches of God reioyce Ergo. The reason of the proposition is because the churches of God haue the spirit of discerning a true church and ministery from a false as Ioh 10.27 5. Maâ— 24 24 1 Cor. 14 32. and 10 15· 1 Ioh. 4 1· The assumption is true because all the churches of God reioyce in our best assemblies and haue giuen vs the right hand of fellowship and testimony of a truâ—â—hurch hauing ioyned our publick confession with their Harmony Answer THIS argument is one and the same with the third of your first Constlerations saue that it hath gotten the fashion of a syllogisme The in sâ—fficiencie of this reason I haue there shewed and thether doe referr the reader Further here I answer that you turne the testimony of the reformed churches to your best advantage yet neyther with equitie nor good successe For they joy not for your best assemblies more then for your worst but for your Church in generall and the confeâ—sion of the same They rejoyce for every Bishop Priest and Deacon and for every Parish that maketh such confession as Bishop Iewel in his Apologie hath set down Part of which Apologie they haue vnited with their Harmâ—nie And why bring you them as approuing your best assemblies onely Your Lords the Prelates may truely say you doe them wrong to apply vnto your selues the applause which other churches giue to their Apologie They wil tel you in your own words the churches of God haue the spirit of discerning a true church and Ministery from a false But the reformed â—hurches haue discerned the nationall church of England whereof the Archbâ—shop of Cant· is Pastorâ— to be a true church they haue discerned the Diâ—cesan Bishâ—ps in England as well as the Parish Priests to be true Ministers and reioyce as well for their Sees as for yoâ—r Parishes hauing joyned these all alike in their Harmony And what will you that suffâ—r sâ— many things for sepâ—rating in yâ—ur châ—rch as yoâ— sâ—yd answer to your right reverend Fathers against whome like vnnaturall children yoâ— hauâ— striven so long and would have them with their jâ—risdâ—ctâ—on â—ut out of your church thâ—t the Pâ—râ—sh priest or Deacon mâ—ght Lord it alone More particularly I answer yoâ—r first propostion is vnsound cannot be proâ—ed from the scripture you allege 2 Thâ—s 1.4 from which text yoâ— must conclude on this faâ—hâ—on Pâ—ul and Siluanus and Timotheuâ— reioyced of the Thesalonians in other churches of Gâ—d because of their pacience and faith in all persecutions c. Therefore the reformed churcheâ— reioycing for the church of England it must needs be a true church The conseqâ—ence is denied True churches may err in their judgment of an other church especialy if theâ— be not rightly informed of the statâ— thereof as the reformed churches are not by that your Apologie Moreover he that mindeth the things recorded of that church 1 Thes. 1 3 6 7 9 c. and the different estate to be seen in your church may soon perceiâ—e their is no lâ—ke cause of joy for you â—s for them that if there be a lâ—ke effeâ—t it is in error The reason of the proposition is no better confirmed by the scriptures you allege For when Chrâ—â—t sayth Iohn 10 27 5. Mâ— sheep hâ—ar my voyce and they will not follow a stranger doeth he send his sheep to other flocks to try their shepheards by or if I see my shepheard to be a thâ—ef a hireling a wolf mâ—st I commit my sowl vnto hâ—m because other shepherds wâ—ll giue him the right hand oâ— fellowship In the other scriptures say nâ—t the Apostles to the particular churches and persons iudge ye what I saâ— try ye thâ— spâ—rit and beleeue not euery spirit But you would not haue our selues to iudâ—e or try but to send over sea and hear what other churches iudge if they apâ—roue we must not disalow You may as wel bid vs. put out our own eyes that other men may lead vs and as soon will we follâ—w you in that as in this your popish counsell We have learned to liue by our own faith and know that every man shall beare hâ—s own bâ—rden and answer for himself to God But you will tell vs if we can iudge and discerne the true church others can doe it also and better I answer I may err iudgment so may others even whole churches therefore let euery man look how he iudgeth and how he deâ—endeth on other men and let evey mans â—udgment be tried by the scriptures For this cause we
vnderstood of the ordinary cathedrall parish assemblies of England which all are by one line For defense of these churches Mr Bern. refers the reader to an other treatise after and so doe I to the answer of the same following Yet least he should seem â—o say nothing Mr Ber excepteth 1 That they haue no false head for they hold Iesus Christ. I answer so might Ieroboam haue pleaded for himself his people that they had no false head but the true God which brought them out of the Land of Aegypt Yet were they a false church The Papists Papists and Anabaptists at this day hold and professe Iesus Christ yet such errors are among them as Christ in deed is deneyed the parishes of England professe him also but such is their estate otherweise that they haue him not truly for a head prophet priest or king vnto them as befor is proued But it is yenough for Mr Bernard to affirme without proofe and correction with him is a needfuller argument in this case tâ—eÌ„ iâ—struction For when the Priests liâ—s preserue not knowledge how should men be answered but by the gaole or gallowes 2. The matter sayth he is not false and to shew this he noteth a difference between No matter true matter and false matter No matter are thâ—y which make no profession of Christ at all as Iewes Turks and Pagans True visible matter are all such as openly professe this mayn truth that Iesus the sonne of Mary is the sonne of God Christ the Lord by whome onely alone they shal be saued And false matter is contrary to this true matter I answer this false matter is very rawly set down for being contrary to the former true it may imply Iewes and Turks whome he made no matter and then it confoundeth his own distinction But if he mean that they which professe not Christ rightly and truely as he setteth downe are a false matter then say I â—t will euince the matter of their Churches to be false seing there is not aright and true profession of Chrâ—st made by their parishes But Mr Ber. leauing out this word rightly truly tels vs they all professe this fayth as is apparent 1 by the doctrine of their church vidz that in the Harmony of Confessions 2 by the same publickly preached 3 by the same mainteyned by their lawes writings and blood of holy martyrs I answer if all this were granted yet will it not proue Mr Bernards purpose for some may write and preach the truth the Magistrate may establish it by law and some may seal it with their blood and yet not al the nation be a true matter for Christs church except they also make lâ—ke profession Which that the parishes of England doe not the profanenes of the multitudes shew But least I be thought to speake of envy let vs hear the testimony of their own ministers and such as were no fauourers of vs at all as their malicious writings of vs sheweth Mr Nichols esteemed a forward preacher among them sayth We finde by great experience and I haue now fiue and twenty yeres obserued it that in those places where there is not preaching and priuate conferring of the Minister and the people the most part haue as litle knowledge of God and of Christ as Turks and Pagans To confirme this he giues vs an example in his own flock For I haue been in a parish sayth he of fowr hundred communicants and maruelling that my preaching was so little regarded I tooke vpon me to conferre with euery man and woman before they receiued the communion I asked them of Christ what he was in his person what his office how firme came into the world what punishment for sinne what becomes of our bodies being rotten in the graue and lastly whither it were possible for a man to liue so vprightly that by wel doing he might winn heauen In all the former questions I scarse found ten in the hundred to haue any knowledge but in the last question scarse one but did affirme that man might be saued by his own wel doing and that he trusâ—ed he did so liue that by Gods grace he should obtâ—yn euerlasting life by serâ—ing of God and god prayers c. Now then this being so tell me I prâ—y yâ—u sayth Mr Niâ—hols first for Athâ—isme whether these be any bettor then Aâ—hâ—isâ—s whiâ—h know not Christ And tell me I pray you Mr Bernard whether thâ—â—â— be a â—rue matter such as Christs church consisteth of But you would â—aâ—â— vs beleeue the Bishops and Priests of Engl. are wondrous men for iâ—â—hey write books or preach sermons to the people their whole Dioceses and Parishes must needs be estemed conuerts and profelytes Such effect grace was neuer heard of before since the world began More absurd it is to say that the good lawes of the Magistrate doe make a profane idolatrous multitude true professors but most of all that because some few were martyrs therefore they that killed the martyrs professe Christ truly If these be not pregnant reasons then M. Bernards book is little worth 3. But he proceedeth and sayth The visible form is not false which is the vniting of vs unto God and one to another uisibly This he would proue by 3 reasons 1 because the word is preached and offred to the people 2 Because of the peoples open profession of their fayth vnto the doctrine God working in them a will to receiue it 3 because the Lords supper is in vse among them Sundry scriptures are alleged to shew that thus the primitiue churches were planted and constituted all which we grant but when he comes to apply these to themselues he barely assumes that thus is their case neyther answering any reason of ours to the contrary nor shewing any reason of his own to confirme that which he sayth And what cause in the world what church is so bad but may thus be pleaded for He knowes wel that we except and the visible estate of that church their own monuments records complaints c. doe bear witnes with us that they were planted in this religion and profession by force of the Magistrates law that multitudes are profane that many thowsands want the preaching of the word that they ar al compelled to come to church be baptised receiue the communion and the like and what profession the poor ignorant people make is before manifested If he would heare more of their profession and subiection to the word and ministery Mr. Nichols shewes it thus How little haue they esteemed the godly and learned ministers How content they be with simple and ignorant men How hardly are they drawn to pay duties which law hath appoynted How many quarrels they pick against painfull ministers And how little reuerence they giue to any that are faithfull How they follow their couetousnes and pleasures How they fil al sorts of courts with brawles foolish and
life which serue to heal the nations with if he offer to touch the Egyptian vlcers that appeare in your worship church-government ministerie ceremonies c. he is presently thrust out of dores and if he dare but affirme these or any of these to be disceases and botches in your body sinns against God or repugnant to his word he is excommunicated ipso facto by the decrees of the whole representatiue church of England And are you willing now to be healed Nay if any among you not medling with the publike estate of your church but feeling or fearing his own particular sowl sicknes doe resort to a physician whose receipts are not after the common sort for aduise about his health or of friendship and acquaintance to see him he is subiect to the censure and thunderbolt of your church Witnesse the late practise in Norwich where certayn citizens were excommunicated for resorting vnto and praying with Mr Robinson a man worthily reverenced of all the city for the graces of God in him as your selfe also I suppose will acknowledge and to whome the cure and charge of their sowles was ere while committed Would any vnmercifull man haue dealt so with his bondslaue in a case of bodily sicknes But hereby all may see what small hope there is of Curing the Kanker of your church THe second question is Are they themselues healed then where were they healed where were they called where were they regenerate and begotten to Christ was it not in the womb of this our church and by means of the immortall seed of Gods word that is dayly sown in our church a holy church a church of God where in ordinarily men are called and brought to God The winde bloweth where it will and we heare the sound thereof but know not whence it cometh and whether it goeth so is every one that is bâ—rne of the spirit To your demaund then I answer we werâ— câ—llâ—â— being in Bâ—â—ylon your Church I meane which restreyneth the 〈◊〉 by vnriâ—hteousnes there was our regeneration begun Where we faâ— in darknes and in the shadow of death the light of God appeared and 〈◊〉 vs lâ—fe If you yet inquire how this was I refer you to 〈…〉 brouâ—ht light out of darknes and daylie bringeth forth the 〈…〉 treasâ—re and his wayes are past finding out for as I knâ—w 〈◊〉 tâ—e way of the winde nor how the bones doe grow in the womb of her that is with childe so know I not the work of God that worketh all If you demaâ—nd of the means it was doubtlesse the word and spirit of the Lord without which there is no calling no regeneration Now where you ask how then we can deny that to be a true church wherâ—in 〈◊〉 men are called and brough to God I answer first you take vp more thâ—n we lay down when you say â—rdinarily for the ordinary and common fruit of the word among you is through your own corrupt handling and hearing of it euell and not good the many walke the broad way and Gods calling is like to that which the Prophet sayth one of a city and two of a tribe in resâ—ect of the worldly multitudes Secondly all the Saincts are not begotten vnto Christ in the wombe of a true particular church for when the Apostle preached among Pagans conuerted many I would know in the womb of what church they were begotten they were first conuerted vnto Christ before euer they were in any other church then that Ierusalem which is aboue the mother of all the elect Let vs come to later times your selues when you began to be a church of protestants in what particular womb were your people begotten I suppose if in any it was in the womb of your mother church of Rome where they had both receiued Baptisme the seal of regeneration and been catechised in Christian religion and then look how your selues can deny that to be a true church or be free of vnthankfulnes towards her that bare you But you prosecute your cause against vs and would driue vs eyther to say there is indeed a true ministery of the word among you but it is not powrfull to any but our selues or els that we were not called in your church but since we left you To the first I answer there is no necessity that we must grant a true ministery for first we hold that the true word may be put in Balaamites mouthes and a false ministery may through Gods wondrous grace beget faith in his elect if you say otherweise you will shake the foundation of your English church layd by Austâ—â— the monk Pope Gregories Apostle and damn all your late fathers vnder the Roman Clergie Secondly we â—ie not the grace of God in the true church to the ministers lips knowing that men by other meanes are often conuerted to the Lord. And if your ministers in England hold that men cannot be begotten to Christ among them but by their preaching you may take vp your Letanie which causlesse you vse for vs and say from this horible and bellish pride good Lord deliuer them As they cannot restreyn the winde from blowing so much lesse the spirit of God from breathing out of other places then ministers mouthes To the second also I answer that it is one thing to be called in your church as you speake and another thing to be called by your church or ministery as I thinke you mean It is written Reu. 18.4 Goe out of her my people you see here Gods people were in Babylon and are called ovt of the same not by Babel it selfe or any minister of it buy by a voyce from heauen So we might be called in your church though not by the same And thus we haue not bard our selues from pleading against you as you would bear men in hand neyther yet shew you of whom or wher you had that which you say we all stoutly answer and stifly stand to it namely that we leau your church meerly only out of conscience c. We haue a better ground if you would receiue it euen the Law of the Lord that so commandeth both vs and our consciences Conscience is the blinde Papists common plea but we know that mans conscience is as much defiled as any other part or power of his sowl or body and therefore it may be no rule of our actions but the law of God onely which is pure perfect and vndefiled Yet you wil needs proceed and say then we had conscience before we left you I answer yea or els we would not haue left you Thinke you that your predecessors had no conscience when they left the Popish church Then where say you of us and minde whether the Papists will not say as much of you where came they to that conscience and care of their saluation but in our church You are answered before we had it in your church as Gods
ministerâ—e they are nâ—â— onely against vs but against themselues for theyr own Câ—â—rches consist of â— separated and voluntary people wheras yoâ—rs are coâ—fused and compelled they condemn and haue reâ—eâ—ted the hierarchie and ministerie of Archbishopâ— Lord bishoâ—s c. Prâ—ests Parsoâ—s Vicars c. which are yet among you and haâ—e amonâ— them anâ—ther ministerie Now how they can apâ—roue of two sorts of Churches mâ—nâ—sterâ—es so contrary one to another let them look to â—t 5. It seemeth to me you are verie lauâ—sh in your praise which now vaunt so of the aâ—probation and reioycing of al the â—ure reforâ—ed Churches in the world whereas heretofore you complayned that you had all the bâ—st refâ—rmed Châ—râ—hes throughâ—ut Châ—istendom agâ—inst you Agayn the Harmony that you mention was set forth but by the French and Belgick churches the things that they approue among you are certayn general heads of religeon which a Bâ—shop wrote in an Apologie of your Church most of all which heads we our selues also approue and reioyce for But the controuersies between you and vs touching the gathering and constituting of a Church the manner of divine seruâ—ce the form of Church government and the like are eyther not at all or in very generall termes set down in that boâ—ke and so uerie slenderly if ought at all by them aâ—proued or reioyced for To giue an instance or two in the tenth section of that Hâ—rmony treating of the Châ—rch your English confession is so shorâ— and in generall words I doubt not bâ—t the Pope himselfe will subscribe vnto it letting him haue his own interpretation In the 15 section of Ecclâ—siasâ—icall meâ—tings you speake of prayer in the tongue which all yoâ—r people vnderstand Now because the Reformed churches approue of thiâ— we must take it belike that they approue of your Leiturgie and service book also and al your publick worship though it be not set downe fâ—r any to judge of In the 16. section of Holy day's fasts c. there yoâ— wriâ—e agâ—inst purgatory which being put into the Harmonie iâ— ynough as seemeth to proue that other châ—rches approue of al your Pope holy-dayes and festiuals The lâ—ke may be minded for other poynts as in the 17. section for ceremonies things indifferent which being approued of and reioyced for by all the Reformed churches in the world the Prelatâ—s wâ—l haue a shrewd hand against you that are called Puritans for standing so much against the ceremonies of your Church as you do· And for your minâ—stery I marveil you say not that it is approued of and râ—iâ—yced for of the Pope also for in the 11. section of that Harmony you beleeue these orders and degrees of ministers in the Church 1 Deacons 2 Priests and 3 Bishops which orders wehther the Reformed Churches approâ—e of or no I am sure the Counsel of Trent doth and hath decreed If any shall say that in the Catholik Church there is not a Hirarchie instituted by diuine ordination which consisteth of Bishops and Priests and ministers let him be â—ccursâ—d Concil Trident. Sess 23. Can. 6. But now seeing not onely the Fathers of the Counsel of Trent but all reformed Churches in the world as you sayd doe approue of and reioyce for this your ministerie I hope the Bishops and hirarchie of your Church shall no more be preached writen against by your inferior Priests as many a day they haue been as being Antichrâ—stâ—an Thus may you see what a weak foundation you bring for your church and ministerie and if we lyfted to fight against you with your own weapons we could allege many things from the persons whome you cite against your present church and ministery but the word of God yeeldeth vs armour ynough for this battell against you as in due tâ—me through his grace shall be seen 6. In the meaÌ„ while it shal not be amisse to put the reader in mind how your selues heretofore haue iudged and written of your ministerie which you say it is approued of and reiâ—yced for of all the pure reformed churches in the world your ministers being as before is noted Deacons Priests and Bishops Of the Deacenship you haue written that it is a meer humane institution a degree to the Priesthood and nothing like to the ordinance of God Of Priests c. that they cam from the Pope as out of the Troian horses belly to the destruction of Gods kingdom Of the Bishops c. that you account them no natural members of the body of Christ church becauase they are of humane addition not borne with her nor grown up with her from the cradle Agayne that they be rather members of the strumpet of Rome then of the spouse of the Lamb c. And haue not you the reformed Churches great cause now to reioyce for this ministery 7. Moreouer consider you also how we may allege that now 10. yeares sithence we have published our Confession of faith and causes of our separation from your Church and ministery to the learned Vniversities of the Reformed churches with desire if in our faith or practise we erred that they would shew it vs but to this day we know not any that haue vndertaken so to doe wherefore we also may suppose by their silence that they approue our case or at least suspend their iudgments and condemne vs not 8. Finally it is written in one of the scriptures that you quote the spirituall man iudgeth all things but he himselfe is iudged of no man 1 Cor. â— 15. Now every true Christian is a spirituall man Gal. 6. 1. 1 Pet 2.5 therfore he may judge and discerne by Gods word and spirit faith from here sie and the true church from the false he may see with his eyes liue by his own faith and not depend vpon other men to liue walk in sin till other churches condemne it Let every man therfore retayn his liberty and take heed how he iudgeth 4. THe onely wicked Paâ—ists Athâ—ist and most ungodly ones are aduersaries to our godly ministers and people The godly in all placâ—s and times among vs by them alone anâ— ordinarily haâ—e been conuerted vnto Christ and by them approâ—ed reuâ—renced and obeyed alwayes in the Lord. Answer 1. IF the onely wicked be adversaries to your Godly ministers and people it perteyneth not to us who hate none of you bâ—t wish well and pray for you al euen for our persecutors we are aduersaries onely to the sinns corruptionâ— that are among you whiles we reproâ—e you for â—inne you should â—udâ—e that we loue and hate you not as the law teâ—cheth We say therefore with the Apostle are we become your enemies because we â—ell â—ou the truth Gal. 4 16. 2 The Atheists and wicked oneâ— that so hate your godly ministers and people are theâ— not also mâ—â—bers of yoâ—r owne Church So then your church is diuided against it selfe and you are aduers one to another And why tel
you vs of this as a consideratioÌ„ to reduce us to your church when we because such Atheists wicked ar coÌ„trary to Gods wil suffred among you doe separate from your Church 3. Agayn who be those godly ministers and people you mean If such as are called Puritans they haue I suppose moe adversaries theâ— freinds in your church yea the publick state alwes and canons of your church are against them and all that know the truth of God and theâ—r estate aright haue just cause to blame them for theâ—r long halting and dissembling If the Prelates be those godly minâ—sters they haue in regard of their vnlawfull places and proceedings many good people for their aduersaries both within and without the land and your selues also which suffer for sâ—paration in your church By neither of these two contrary factions among you ar men ordinarily conuerted unto Christ both sorts setting your selues against the true way of Chrâ—st for gathering and gouernmenâ— of the Church and worship of God and so do hinder mens saluation and deserâ—e to be not approued but reproued in the name of the Lord. The 5. Consideration 5. GOD hath giuen witnâ—â— for the truth of our ministerie by the vndoubted tâ—stimony of his gracious presence and approbation of the same by his gifts of 1. sanctifiâ—ation 2 knowledge 3 spirit of discerning 4. of vtterance 5 of power and authority in teaching 6 effectuall and ordinarie â—alling and begetting to the faiâ—h of God and bringing them from darknâ—s to light from the old man to the nâ—w from the flâ—sh vnto the spirit which ministery of ours begat you â—lso if ever you were truâ—y bâ—gotten in the spirit by Gods mâ—rcie hath begotten me other hâ—s vnworthy seruants Answer 1. THe Papists will say as much as all this and more too if words will serâ—eâ— for the ministery of their church they boast of theâ—r Friers Iesuâ—ts holines knowledge utterance authority in teaching and their maruelous effects in conuerting to Christianity the Indians other â—eâ—thens all ouer the world Yea what religeon glorieth not in tâ—e sanctitie gifts and effects of their ministerie But Gods word must try all 2. The ministerie of â—our Church being Archbishops L. Bishops Deanes Archdeacons c Priests and Deacons as is to be seen in the books statutes and canons of your church you brâ—ng not here any one word of God or text of scriptures which are his testimonies to witnes for the truth of your ministery and this is indeed worthy to be considered of vs of al that shall read your Considerations 3. Your own brethren heretofore confessed and complayned to the Parliament that you lack in England a right ministery of God that the ministers are neithâ—r proued elected called nor ordeyned according to Gods word This testimonie being true how then doth God giue witnes for the truth of your ministery 4. The witnesâ—es that you bring if they be examined wil say little ar nothing to this purpose For 1. The gift of santification is a common note of Christianity 1. Thes. 4.3 1 Pet. 2.9 and therefore no speciall note of a ministery This was Korahs argument when he would haue vsurped the Priesthood All the congregation is holy euery one of them why may they not therefore be Prâ—ests Num. 16.3.10 But what saith the scripture No man taketh thâ—â— honour to himselfe but he that is called of God as Aaron was Heb. 5.4 2.3 The second and third 2 knowledge 3 of the spirit of discerning are also generall for the whole church and not speciall for the ministerie Rom. 15.14 Phil. 1.10 Yea some in the flock may have a greater measure both of sanctification and of knowledge then the Pastor or teacher or any Officer It cannot be denied but Barsabas had knowledge as wel as Matthias yet was he not therefore an Apostle Act. 1.23.26 and they whose genealogies could not be found had knowledge as wel as the other Prâ—ests yet were they not therâ—fore kept in the Priesthood Ezra 2.62 Boast not you therefore of your knowledge but shew vs yoâ—r genealogies in the scriptâ—res There be a great many in your ministerie called dumb Priestâ— whâ—ch are but bare readers by whose meanes many people perish for want of knowledge these testimonâ—es will be dumb for them yet your â—â—urch proclaymeth them to be â—rue ministers Your best ministerâ— of whose knowledge you boast shew themseluâ—â— ignorant or worse in the 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 â—lanting of a church whâ—les they will haue it as their â—ractise proueth with commixâ—â—re of al form without separation whereaâ— they cannot shew any true church since the beginning of the world but was of a separaâ—ed people Gen. 61.2 12 1. Lâ—v 20.23.24 Ezr. 6 21. Act. 2 40.41 19 9. c. 4. 5. The fowrth and fift 4. vttâ—rance with 5 power authority in teaching are needfull in such as are ministers but no neceâ—sarie proof of a true ministerie For had not the false Apostles and Prophets utterance and power that preached wâ—th eloquence and wisdom of words dâ—sgracing the Apostles and Prophets of the Lord 2 Cor. 10.10 11.13.15 1. Kin. 22. â—4 Ier. 23.31 28.1.2.10 11. 2 Tim. 3.8 Your ministers many preach not at al many preach to mayntain the pompous prelacie laudable ceremonies of your Church and they that prâ—ach best shew little power or authority For how many yeers haue they been preaching for Discipline and against some corruptionâ— of your church yet nothing preuailed but are further now at last then they were at the first Who knoweth not that the prelates haue closed vp the mouthes of many Ministers that the prophesie of Esaias is verified vpon them Isa. 56.10 and yet you boast of theâ—r utterance auâ—hority in teaching But lamentable ministers are they â—ll and the best of them may be seen to be but briers and to haue betrayed the authority of Christ For when they took the Order of Priesthood as they call it they solemnly promised euen before the Lord and by his help that they would giue their faithfull diligence alwayes so to minister the doctrine and sacraments and the discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded as this realm hath receiued the same according to the commandements of God so that they mought teach the people committed to their care and charge wâ—th all diligence to keep obseruâ— the same They promised also reuerently to obey their ordinary other chief ministers is to whom the gouernmeÌ„t charg is commited ouâ—r them following with a glad mind and will their godly admoniâ—ion and submitting theÌ„seluâ—â— to their godly juâ—gement Yet your forward preachers as they are esteemed doe not minister the doctrine sacraments and discipline of Christ as thâ— Lord hath commanded but sue and wait for authority from the Magâ—strate to haue that whâ—ch they count the true discipline of Christ erected in theâ—r parishes which because the ciuill Magistrate doeth not they practise
the remainders of poâ—ish sâ—perstâ—ons and idolatrie Contrarie to Psal. 26.3 3 Ioh 3 4. Rom. 6 4. Ephe 2 10. 1 Cor 10 14 2â— Reu. 14 9.12 In these and many other particulars your people are contrary to the scriptures so the prâ—ncipall marks are wanting 2 Next you compare thâ—m with the professâ—rs of any church new in the world This is more bolâ—lie then wiselie spoken of you shew if you can any reformed church whose people are like yours for â—â—rr mixtâ—re of al sorts or in lâ—ke bondage to Antichrâ—stian â—relates or that use like superstions and idolatries in the worship of God and dailie conversation Remember also what some of your selues haue written heretofore how that Of all the nations that haue rencunced that whore of Rome thâ—re ïs none in the world so farre out of square as England in reteyning the Popish hierarchie Your last comprison is with ourselues whome you twite with supposed perfection wherein you iniurie vs and yet help not your selues For we suppose no perfection at al to be in vs eyther in knowledge or practise but are priuie to our selues of our infirmities and are sure we haue more also then we can discerne Yet by the grace of God we are that we are and his grace is not in vaine in us but as it hath brought vs out of confusion boâ—dage and Idolatrie whâ—rein your people still remayn so we trust it will keep vs in the truth of the gosâ—el vntil we come to perfection in the kingdome of our father which is in heauen 3. Next you speak of the sealing hereof vnto your people 1. By the care peace and testiâ—â—ny of a good conscience in al things what care can be seen in such confused carelesse walking of your people commixt in one bodie with the profane and serpents seed what peace of conscience can there be when men doe walke in open transgression of Gods law except such as whereby a man falsely blesâ—eth himselfe saying I shal haue peace although I walke according to the stubbornes of my own hart Deut. 29 19 There is no peace sayth the Lord vnto the wicked Isa. 48.22 The waies of your people being wicked their spirituall actions idolatrous it must needs be a blind or corrupt conscience that testifieth for theÌ„ in this estate 2.3 Their 2 suffrings and 3 effectual comforts in them we will beleeu when we see them For the present we behold many of your peoplâ— for auoyding the crosse of Christ to submâ—t to the Idolatries of your Church against their owne conscience and confeâ—sion Very few that will suffer for any part of the truth but none at al that suffer for all except such as forsake your confused assemblies And if one or two in a shire doe suffer a litle trouble for not being buxome enough to the Prelates and their coâ—rts what is that to jâ—stify the prophane multitudes and generall state of your people which are readier to pâ—rsecute then to suffer persecâ—tion for râ—ghteousnes sake as we haue had lâ—â—entable experience these mâ—ny yeires Wâ—â—refore as their suffrings so I think their Comforts are 4 Their assurâ—nce of faith of hope of remission of sinns and of Gods dear loue unto thâ—â— may wel be boasteâ— of but not soundlie felt For where so many evil works doe abound and reigne there is not true faith and consequently no â—â—re hope of remiâ—sion of sinns Shew vs therefore your faith by your works for we câ—nnot see your harts Bnt this we find in the scriptures that yoâ—r forâ—fathers when the Prophets reâ—roâ—ed theâ— for their sinns woâ—ld vaunt as you do anâ— lean vpoâ— the Lâ—rd aâ—d â—ay is not the Lord aâ—ong vs no euill can come upâ—n vs. Mic. 3 11. This glâ—rying of inward graces when outward transgreâ—sions doe prevaile is meer delusion common with all sorts and sects of religion Even the hâ—rlot can boast of her peace offrings Pro 7.14 and the Phâ—risee thanketh God that he is not as other men Luk. 18 11. 5 Their spritual loue and frâ—ites thereof let them record thâ—t haue tasted of It is wel known in the land how many of Gods children hauâ— been empouerished afflicted tormented by long and lamentable imprisonment vexation and spoile of goods exile and other like meanes women left widowes and children fatherlesse How your godlie people haue visited comforted and releiued them is not so wel knowne it may be their charitie hath been in secret and their left hand knoweth not what their right hath done Wherefore you needed not haue offred this to our consideration who are so uÌ„aquainted with their loue let them selus rather coÌ„sider how they shal answer wheÌ„ they com to that howr meÌ„tioned Mat. 25.34 35.41 42. c. If you think they haue shewed loue to their freinds and fauourites that will procure them but little thank euen sinners and publicans doe the same Luk. 6.32.33 c. 6 Their progresse and dayly growth in knowledge strength godlinesse is ill seen in the estate they stand there being at this day rather moe gross abominations vrged and observed in your publick assemblies then haue been heretofore and your châ—rch further from reformation now in the end theÌ„ was at the beginâ—â—â—â— that vnlesse you come to walke as your brethren of thâ— separation and quite abandon the hope of reforming Babel it wil shortly aâ—pear tâ—at all your labours be but sâ—iders webs and your expectation vanitie and vexation of spirit The 7. Consideration Consider how God hath witnessed his loue and approbation to our church 1 by many victories and deliuerances from the enimies of Christ 2 long continuance of the gâ—spel among us 3 strang iudgments on the enimies persecâ—tâ—rs of the gospel 4 the power and blessing in casting out Diuils 5 prayer heard both in spirituall and earthly things 6 by throwing down the Churâ—â— of 〈◊〉 and building of the Church of God by preaching disputing and printing of many excellent works and volumes puplished of all sorts which nonâ— of you in anything haue ever yet atteyned but onely to threw down Gods church to raise â—â—ssention among brethren to rent the church to distract the ignorant to afâ—ord the weak to hinder the cause of refâ—rmation to bear false witnesse against your brethren and belye the holy ordinances of God Answer 1. IF many victories and deliuerances be an vndoubted testimony of Gods loue and approbation of a people and their religeon then 〈◊〉 might wel haue boasted of his religion who conquered seventy Kings and made theÌ„ gather bread vnder his table Iudg. 1.7 Then Raisak hs reason was good which he alledgeth against the Israel tâ— fâ—r that he had conquered so many nations 2 Kin 18 33·34 35· If on the Turks at this day may triumph ouer Christian religeon becaus they haue warrayeâ— a great part of the world‘ takeÌ„ from ChristiaÌ„s â—any kâ—ngdâ—mes and â—rouinces Yea this verie reason did heathen men herâ—tofâ—re allege for dâ—fence of pagan â—me as that
ignorant distracted weak offended blame not vs which testifie the truth but your selues and such as reâ—ist it Thinke you that Chrâ—st came to giue peace on the earth he hath told you may but rather debate For fiue in one howse shal be diâ—ided three against two and two against three father against sonn mother against dâ—ughter and bleâ—sed is he that shall not be offended in Christ When the Temple of God is opened in heauen the ark of his couenâ—â—t seen therein there are lightnings and voyces and thundrings earthquakâ— and much bayl Thinke it not strange then if troubles doe follow follow the preaching of the Gospell neither impute your own faults vnto vs but submit your necks vnto the yoke of Christ least he send out his arrowes and scatter you and increase lightnings and destroy you How your churches â—state hatâ— been iustified by you the reader may se by that you haue brought and how far we are from your vnchristian calumnies shall further appâ—aâ— by the help of God in the answer to your other Considerations that now next follow On your part consider 1 YOur Separation is very strange vnboard of in any age of the Church hauing no shew of warrant from Gods word eyther by commandement or example Answer YOV would not call our separation strange if your selfe were not a stranger from the common wealth of Israel What age was there euer in the world since light was separated from darknes that heard not of separation from the false Châ—rch the fast man Adam saw it in the separation of Seths posterâ—ty from Caines Noah did the like in Sems posteritie from Chams Abraham was called out of Chaldee Lot out of Sodom Israel out of Aegipt and Babel faithfull Iudah from rebellious Israel Christs disciples from faithleâ—â—e Iewes and Gentiles and all the Lords people from your confused Babylon Yea God him selfe did first teach it when he made a separation between the wâ—mans seed and the Serpents Gen. 3. â—5 And yet you say it hath no shew of warrant from Gods word Hereafter I suppâ—se you will say so no more but wil see if you can proue your selues a trâ—e Church meet to be communicated withal which when you doe we by Gods grace will returne vnto you The 2. Consideration 2 THE poynts in difference between vs and you did arise at first from persons in whome God tâ—stified against your present causes 1 Mr. Bolton hanged himselfe â— Mr. Brown revolted and came back from you 3 Mr. Peâ—ry Barrow and Greenwood were hanged 4 Mr. Iâ—hnsons and the rest banished and note not by heathen and Antâ—christian tyrants as were true Martyrs of Christ but by Christian Magistrat's profâ—ssing and mayntâ—yning the Gospell of Christ. Besides your principal pillars of greatest reckning gifts and iudgement haue returned from you unto the Church of England as Harrison Smith Crud Slad and sundry other miâ—â—sters and men of learning and account who also liued holily and died most comfortably in the Lord notwithstanding Answer IT is a wonder if you be a teacher in your church that your salt is so vasauory Shal mens persons now be brought against the case of Christ haue you no better learned him Mought not a Canâ—anite or Philistian have reasoned thus against Israel The wares against us and you did arise at first from persons in whome God testified against your present cause Some were brunt with fire som sunk into the earth aliue some were destroyed by serpents some by pestilence some by the enimies sword some by the sword of their own brethren euen Moses and Aâ—ron your â—rincipall pillers of greatest reckning dyed in the desert for their sinne and of six hundred thousand men that came out of Aegipt to fight against vs onely two men are left aliue and note these things have come vpon you bâ— the hand of your God whom you say that he hath sent you to warr agaynst vs Thus might a PagaÌ„ haue pleaded against Gods church then with as much truth and more colour then you that are called a Christian can do against vs. But let us see your particulars 1. Mâ— Bolton yoâ— say hâ—nged himselfe And so did Iudas one of the â—irst and principall publisherâ— of Christs Gospell Will you therefore call Christâ—aâ—ity into question for it Besides this Bolton one of the Elders of that separated Church whereof Mr. Fits was Pastour in the beginning of Q. Eliz. reigne first revolted at Pauls Crosse was reproued and excomâ—unicate for this by the church and aftâ—r not hauing grace to returne or â—epent hanged himselfe This is testified to me by one yet liuing among vs who thoâ— was member of that church well acquainted with the affairs thâ—reof and with this matter and saw the man dead Which being so Boltons Martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause and church where of he died a member 2 Mr. Brown reuolted c. And to did Demas and divers others in al ages who loued this present world more then God But consider you here the Apostles words what though some haue been vnfaithful shal their vnfaithfulnes make the faith of God without effect Farr be it Rom. 3.3 4. besides how wel Mr. Brown approueth of your church though he liue in it if you ask him I suppose will tel yov 3. Mr. Penry Barrow and Greenwood were hanged And so was Christ himselfe and note not by heathen tyranns for Pilate washed his hands of his blood but by Priests Scribes and Pharisees professing and mainteyning the religion of God as your church now dooth And you that allege the hanging of these men to reproach our faith it is probable that if you had then liued you would haue reproached Christ him selfe in the fellowship of whose afflictions and reproaches we now rejoyce and are not ashamed But fulfill you the measure of your forefathers 4. Mr. Iohnsens and the rest 〈◊〉 And so was Iâ—hn the sonn ofâ— thunder and many other of Gods people many tâ—mes You and your church shall haue small cause to boast of your persecuting Christs witnesses when the day of your 〈◊〉 shall come Your captions note that these â—unishments are neâ—ly heathen tyranâ—â— but by profesâ—ed Christians is indeed worthy to be noted and lamented yet is it of no note or force to disproue the truth of our cause For who â—ersecuted Chrâ—st and his Apostles more then the Israelites Gods peculiar and profesâ—ed people who mâ—re then the builders refused him the chief corner-stone wheâ—e were the Prophets killed but in Ierusalem Yea not onely false Chrâ—stâ—ans and hypocrites but Gods elect-seruants may so be ouertaken as to persecute and kill the Lords people Did not the Patriarcheâ— sel Ioseph into Aegipt when some of them would haue kâ—lled him was not Solâ—mâ—n a good King Yet sought he to kill Ierobâ—am without cause whom God
had appoynted to be King after him Was not Aja a godly King and good reformer of the church yet was he wroth with Hanani the Seer and put him into prison onely for speaking vnto him the word of the Lord. What weight is there then in thiâ— your cavil that our affliction are by Christian magistrates therefore out cause is evill Good princes may be ouer caried eyther by their own affections or by the suggestions and prouocations of other men And if you will not yet see your folly mind this for your selues that you which 〈◊〉 called Puritans are molested imprisoned persecuted and note not by hethen and Antichristian tyranns but by your own Christian magistrates and Bishops professing and maynteyning the gospel of Christ. Ergo eyther your cause or your argument is naught Your last poynt is partly false and partly friuolous for Mr. Harrison returned not vnto your church of England but died at Middleburgh in this faith that we professe Mr. Smith Crud and some others which never were officers much lesse pillars in our Church did indeed forsake their first faith and died soone after with what comfort themselues now know But what if many more had forsaken vs yet the truth of the gospell which we professe shall stand Christian religion was at a low ebb when so many went back that Iesus sayd to the twelue will you also gee away Yet Christianitie still flourisheth and shall so long as the moone endureth And we with comfort doe behold that though many bad ones haue gone away yet God bringeth better in their place dayly The 3. Consideration 3. NOte your dissentions between 1 Brown and Harrison 2 Brown 〈◊〉 Barron 3 Barroâ— and Francis Iohnson 4 Francis and George Iohnson 5 â—r Iohnson and Mr. Slade that great scholler 6 Chaphâ—n and others aâ—out Anahaptisme nay none of your great Rabâ—ines but haue grosly disagrâ—â—d disagreed among themselues It piâ—ieth vs to see your poor congregation how lamentably it hath been rent with mutuall dissentions bitings and deuouring of echâ—ethers whâ—ch doubtlesse is no 〈◊〉 â—f the spirit of God These are not lies but matters known and they are matters horrible and strange Answer IF you were an Atheist or Pagan as you professe to be a Christian you mought in this maâ—â—r reprâ—ch the church of God â—uer since the world began saying Note the dissentions â—etween Kain and Abel Cham and Noah Esaw and Iaacob Ioseph and the Patriarches Moses and the Isralites Moses and the Leuites Moses and his â—wn sister and brother Gedeen and the men of Ephraim of Succâ—th and of Pennel Abâ—melech and his brethren Iâ—phteh and his brethren Beniamin and the other triâ—es of Israel Saul and Dauid Dauid and Absalom the ten tribes and the two from Ieroboams times and after the Pharisees Sadducees in the Iewish Church the Apostles of Christ the dissâ—ntions in Corenth and the other Apostolike Churâ—hes These are not lies but matters knowne and râ—corded in the scriptures and they are matters horrible and sâ—rangem So then if your proposed Câ—nsideration be of weight to turne vs from our present faith because of the dissentions that haue been among vs the like consideration â—nought turne vs also which God forbid from all faith and religion make vs as very Atheâ—sts as a many of your church already are And indeed wher unto leadeth this manner reasoning which you vse bâ—t vnto Atheismâ— For if an Infidel â—hould mind religion mought he not be kept back by considâ—râ—ng the dissentions in faâ—th between Painims Iewes Mahometists and Chrâ—stians and a Iew or Turke be kept from Christianitie because of the disâ—entions between Protestants Papists Arians Anabaptists and other sects many Yea are not the Papists at this day hindred from true religeon by noting as you doe the dissentions between Luther Zwinglius Calvâ—n c But it seemeth all these were farr from your consâ—deration or if you minded them yet were they but motes in your ey they be our dissentions ours onely that trouble you It pittieth you to see our poor congregation how lamentably it hath been rent c. but you are hard-harted and take no pity belike on your own Church which you so highly commend vnto us though dissentions for discipline that I speake not of other matters haue been so great that you haâ—e not onelie preached printed on against an other now many a year and that in verie bitter and hostile manner but also persecuâ—ede imprisoned fought the blood on of an other Wel howsoeuer we haue indeed just cause to lament that by our dissentions you and others haue taken occasion to blaspheme the truth of God yet herin haue we comfort that such things must be amongst us as the Holy Ghost saith that they which are approuued may be known And you if by no meanes you will learne the estate of a Church here on earth where it is in continuall warr with the Serpent and his seed but stil you think these things horrible and strange take heed you stumble not at the stone Christ to your distruction haue your abiding in that house which the strongman armed keepeth and the things that he possesseth are in peace Luk 11.21 The 4. Consideration 4. YOur chiefest teachers cannot as yet determine what the discipline iâ— that they would haue as what the difference is between a Pastor a Doctour whether Apostates ought to be admitted to office in the church c. Answer 1 THere is no such dissention among vs touching these matters as you would here insinuate though if there wer yet our imperfection and difference in iudgment sheweth that we are weak men but no whit preâ—udâ—ceth the truth we professe 2 The heathen Philosophers in the Niâ—oean Synod obiected the like against Christians that they agreed not in opinion among themselus Sâ—zomen lib. 1 cap. 18. 3. Your selfe heathen-like may obiect against Paul and Barnabaâ— twoo of the chiefest teachers of Christian religion one of the two things wherewith you here doe reproach vs because they not onely could not determine whether Iohn Mark who had before departed froÌ„ them should accompanie them in the work of the Gospel but were so stirred that they departed asunder one from the other Act. 15.37.38.39.40 4. You might much better blame your owne Church and chiefest teachers that cannot as yet determine what the discipline is that they would haue witnesse your long continued controuersies in print wherein what adoe you make about discipline all the world knoweth If your selues would walke better in the truth peace and concord of the gospel you might wiâ—h more equitie find fault with us pul therefore the beam first out of your own eye The 5 Consideration 5 THE Lord hath also testified against you by giuing over very many people 1 to Atheisme 2 carnall life 3 Papisme 4 Anabaptisme 5 Ariâ—nijme 6 Familisme which are
articles and decrees imposed vpon you to be obserued on paine of excommunication and further penalties So Christ alone is not your foundation but his seruants also you ar to whom you obey 2. Your builders are your preaching ministers but I deny them to be Gods builders let them shew when God designed them as he did Bezaleel Aholia'â— to make his sanctuary let them shew by the word their office and calling as the Apostle Paul of whome mention is made in the place you allege 1 Cor 3 10. did â—n all his Epistles Otherwise not all that offer themselues to build may be admitted for you know how it is written It is not for you and for vs to build the howse vnto our God Ezra 4.3 In most of your parish assemblies you haue but one preaching minister and so but one builder and he will be a good while in building the house and if he be taken away as many are then your church wanteth one of the 4 essent all things In many parishes there be vnpreaching ministers your church maketh them builders also though you doe not and vnto such if we were among you should we be constreyned to submit our soules The Bishops are master builders in all your churches they command and control you their inferior Priests if you build not by their line they throw down quicklie all your building and thrust the builders out of dores These are like the hornes that Zacharie saw which scattered Iudah so that a man darst not lift vp his head but your preaching ministers are not like the carpenters that came to fray them away How great a jarr there is between your builders we all doe know and long it wil be ere they agree togither to build Gods house or the work be finished for Christ to dwel in when the master workmen work all awry and when as you complained to the Parliament the walls of Sion lie euen with the ground 3. The instrument of building is the word of God as you allege Eph. 2.20 deliuered by the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe But your builders vse not this instrument aright in doctrine or practise they new not here with the rough stone and knotty timber they reform not the profain rebellious people neither haue they power in their armes to cut off any one wicked man for the axe of excommunication is in the Bishops hand alone and his commissaries he hath the keyes to open shut the dores of your Church the parish priest hath perhaps a weeding hook and may suspend from the sacrament a while by vertue of his service-book but the greatest wound that he can make herewith the Bishop or his substitute will quickly heal Again you haue besides the Bible Apocripha bookes commanded by law to be read in your church also that other instrument called the seruice book and with this tool your best minâ—sters build vp your church and the reading hereof doth now much edifie in al your parishes though the dayes hauee been when you could say that in all the order of your seruice there was no edification but confusion And who put this instrument into your ministers hands Christ in his testament appoynted none such Your church hath also Homily books to build withall and many edifying canons and ceremonies such tools the Prelâ—es haue allowed for your building even the instruments of the foolish sheâ—heard Za. 11 15.16 if you will not beleeu me beleeu your selus which heretofore haue complayned and written thus No preacher may without great danger of the law vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circumscribed and wrapt within the compasse of such statutes such penalties such iniunctions such advertisements such articles such canons such sober caueats and such manifold pamphlets that in manner it doth but peep out from behind the skreen The lawes of the land the book of common prayer the Queens iniunctions the Commissioners aduertisements the Bishops canons Linwoods provincials euery Bishops articles in his dioces my Lord of Canterburies sober â—aueats his licences to preachers and his high court of prerogatiue or graue fatherly faculties these to-gither or the worst of them as some of them be too bad may not be broken or offended against but with more danger then to offend against the bible To the subscribing subscribing agayn thâ— third subscribing are requâ—red for these preachers others are indited are fined ar prisoned are excommunicated are banished and haue worse things threatned them And the Bible that must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned Is this to professe Gods word Is this a reformation c. Thus haue we your own confessioÌ„ what manner of instruments your church is builded with and all men may see what small cause you haue to boast of the word of God amongst you The matter of the building is people ioyned togither in the profession of the Gospell And what manner of people are ioyned togither in your church are there not all sorts of profane wicked and irreligious persons as wel as religious and men of better life and where find you in the scriptures such matter for Gods howse The texts by you alleged teach farr otherweise for the Church of Corinth were saincts by calling even called of God unto the fellowship of his sonne Iesus Christ. 1 Cor 1 2 9 and the Apostle neuer sayd to any profane or confused people ye are Gods husbandry Gods building So for the other text if you had minded eyther that which is before or after it might haue stayed you from applying it to your church For the Apostle writing to the Saincts not to the profane which were at Ephesus sayth Now yâ— are no more strangers and forreners but citizens with the saincts and of the how should of God and after he sheweth how in Christ all the bulding coupled togither groweth vnto an holy temple in the Lord. But neyther are your people saints by calling neyther can you say of your church of England that all the bulding of all the parishes coupled togither groweth to an holy Temple in the Lord for your self here defend not all but the best onâ—ly And we know well that the mâ—ltitudes of profane wicked persons and miscreants meer strangers and forreners are of the matter of your church and are buâ—lded in and with the same if the word and sacraments doe buâ—ld among you even the vilest of theâ— when they goe to the gibbet as pleasantly as Agag did to his death Now mind with your selâ—es if God haue commanded to build his house with the fine Ceder and Sittim trees you take the thornes and briars of the wildernes or wild figtrees of the playn whether Christ who is faithfull to him that hath appoynted him even as Moses was in all his house when he shall take a view of all your work will allow of
himself and the Conformists of farr greater esteem in this church then the Reformists Whether this be not a playne schisme and Mr Bern a factious person thus to carry hâ—mselfe in a church let himselfe say as also whether he be not fâ—r this ipso â—acto excommâ—nicated by force of theâ—r own Canon which sayth Whosoeuer shall hereafter separate themselues from the Communion of Saincts as it is approued by the Apostles rules in the Church of England and combine themselues together in a new brotherhood accounting the Christiâ—ns who are conformable to the doctrine gouernments rites and ceremonies of the church of England to be profane and vnmeet for them to ioyne with in Christian profession let them be excommunicated ipso facto and not restored but by the Archbishop after their repentance and publick reuocation of such their wicked errors Into like danger doth he come by Canon 11 and 12. The il meanes by which our cause is mainteyned he makeâ—h to be strange expositiâ—n of scripture c. First Mr Bern. here walketh still in the Papists steps who obiect the like vnto the Protestants Let an indifferent reader say they peruse the learnedst book of these reformers and he shall see in them false allegations of Fathers corruptions of scriptures fathers and councels c. Secâ—â—dly I answer our expositions may seeme strange to such as are themselues strangers from God but the Godly wise can discerne to whom if they haue read our books I leane the iudging of this probability Now thâ—s old calumniatioÌ„ which SataÌ„ layd vpoÌ„ the Sainct how truly Mr Bâ—rn hath layd vpon vs let his proofs shew which are in these two particulars First that one of us sayth All the truth is not taught in the Church of Eâ—gland and to proue this Act. 20 21. is cited Which one of vs thus citeth Act. 20 and where Mr Bern. nameth not Good cause we haue to suspect his faithfulnes for in his book he chargeth vs with some errors which we hold not as after shall appear And he that would so iniury the whole what may we think he wâ—ll doe for a part I suppose therefore the party cited that scripture to proue the whole truth ought to be taught which because it may be questioned whether it be needfull at all times therefore the Apostles example is brought As for the Priests of England 〈◊〉 they preach not the whole truth is proued by their dayly practise who balk many truthes touching the church ministery worship governmenâ— c. as all that obserue their doctrines know very well It is proued â—lso by the lawes and canons of their church which excommunicate â—ll such as shall by the truth reproue the falsehoods and abominations that are among them as before in this treatise is shewed And Mr Bern. is very silly if he exspect any scriptures to proue what is now taught in his church Furthermore if it be granted him that Act. 20. were by some one of vs alleged for the purpose he pretendâ—th yet it is no more lâ—kelihood that our cause is evill then that his brethrens cause and plea against vs is evill for they without all doubt doe allege scriptures for to proue things done in Engl which it is not posible by the scripturs for to shew See before in this book pag. 43. c 44. But what speak I of others Mr Bern himsefe is fayn to vse such colours els would the glory of his church soon fade for in the 48 page of his book he allegeth God for witnes that they are his people 1 by giuing them his word Psa 147.19 20. 2 by his effectuall working thereby Ier 22 22 therefore there is the voyce of the sonne of God Ioh. 5.25 c. If these be found and sufficient proofs that England hath Gods word because Israel had it and so in the rest then why may not men allege like Scriptures and proofs against them saying They are stayned with their own works and goe a whoring with their own inuentions Psal. 106 39. from the Prophets of Ierusalem is hyprocrisie gone forth into all the Land Ier. 23.15 I haue not sent these Prophets sayth the Lord yet they ran c. Ier. 23.21 and the like So then Mr Bern. must eyther bring better reasons for himselfe or els he may blush to blame others for that wherein himself is more faulty then they if they be faulty at all The other particular which he specifieth is that places setting forth the inuisible church c. we bring to set forth the visible church by as namely 1. Pet. 2.9 10. But Mr Bern. shewes his reader no reason at all why that Scripture must be vnderstood of the inuisible church as he Sayth and it is an easie matter for him to find faults without reasoÌ„ in any maÌ„s writing That place of Peter as the wise reader may perceiue Speaketh of and to the visible or Sensible church for th' Apostle wrote to the visible christians the strangers that then dwelt in Pontus Galatia c. and this which he speaketh to them in Chap· 2 9.10 is as Moses of old spake to the visible church of Israel Exod. 19 6. Againe he mentioneth the end of their calling to this dignity vidz to shew forth the vertues of him that had called them out of darknes into his maruelous light which whether it appertaynes not to the visible church I leaue it for euery true member thereof to iudge And such as these are the exceptions that D. Allison to whome he referreth us tooke heretofore which because they are vnworthy a Dr. of Diuinity we haue though best to passe by as vnworthy of reply till further occasion The 4. likelihood is that we haue not the approbation of any reformed churches Churches for our cause This is much like his first probability before answered and seemeth to be a mayn propp to vphold the church of England which loue to make flesh their arme The reader may see this poynt thrise vrged before in this book and thrise answered I referr him also to our Letters vnto Mr Iunius whome Mr Bern. mentioneth finally to the Apologie of the church of England where themselues say vnto the like obiections of the Papists thâ— truth of the Gospel of Iesus Christ dependeth not upon councels add also nor vpon Churches nor as S. Paul sayth vpon the iudgements of mortall creatures The 5. is the condemnation of this way by the Diuines of England both liuing and dead c. But this is no other likelihood then it is like Mr Bern. if he had then liued would haue alleged against Christ himselfe when the learned Priests Rabbines and Diuines of Israel condemned his way and doctrine Ioh. 7.48.49 19 7. c. If these learned English Diâ—ines haue confuted vs let Mr Bern. or any shew the scriptures and reasons by which they haue done it if they were our aduersaries without reason as some of them he
of the archangel Michael Boniface the 8. shewed like honour to the 4 Euangelists and many other memorable gests are recorded of the Fathers of the See of Rome whereof there is not a word in the Testament of Christ that he or his disciples did euer the like For they appoynted not priests apparall long gownes tippers 4. horned capps as did Pope Zacharie nor a white linen surplice at seruice time as did Pope Syluester 1. They hallowed no Temples or Churches as did P. Hyginus nor Churchyards as did P. Calistus 1 Neyther ordeyned ringing of bells to call the people to diuine seruice as did P. Sabinian They appointed no Rood-loft to part the Chancel from the church as did P. Bâ—niface 2 nor hallowed Font to Christen in or Godfathers and Godmothers at baptisme as did P Pius 1. and Hyginus They commanded not the people to goe procession as did Pope Agapetus 1. nor appoynted any Bishoping or Confirmation of children as did P Clement 1. with a great number more of like pranks vsed in the Romish seruice which Christs Apostles knew not as their writings shew But the church of Engl. as next heir of Romes constitutions reteyneth these reliques obserueth these rites and a many moe for which the Papists doe insult and say that from their treasure house the religion now established hath learned the forme of christening Marrying Churching of women Visiting the sick Burying and sundry other likâ— as the books translated out of theirs doe declare And now what sayth Gods law for all such things vnto his people I am sayth he the Lord your God After the doing of the land of Aegypt wherein ye dwel shall ye not doe and after the doing of the land of Canaan whether I will bring you shall ye not doe neyther walke in their ordinances My iudgments shall ye doe and my ordinances shall ye keep to walke in them I am the Lord your God Thus he forbad them not onely the worship of false Gods but euen the imitation of idolatrous worship rites and ordinances in his seruice wherfore he charged them againe that they should not so much as inquire or ask how the nations serued their Gods that they might doe so to the Lord their God But whatsoever he commanded them they should make heed to doe it putting nothing thereto nor taking ought therfrom Yet the Bishops and Priests of Engl. haue almost all things in their Leiâ—ourgie according to the doings of that spiritual Aegypt the Romish church wherein they dwelt and haue imitated her worships‘ orders ceremonies c. reteyned her ministery prelacy courts and canons thâ— Latine being turned into English and some grosse superfluities left ouâ— And in defense of this worship haue these godly ministers written Mr Bernard published their work wherein if the reader see not a soâ—nd proof of the things that Mr Barrow whose errors they pretend to confute reproued he must impute it to the badnes of their cause which wil scars admit of any colour from the booke of God For besides the abuse of holy scriptures alleged to iustify these popish stratagems how sound diuine or rather how fond and corrupt is the reasoning of these men from Gods example and authority vnto their own practise and power that because the Lord God gaue formes of blessing prayer and psalmes to his people as the scriptures which they cite doe shew therefore their Lords the Prelates may giue them also prescript words for blessing prayer and Psalmes c. as is to be seen in their seruice book Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his goldeÌ„ calues Why doe not these men also plead that God gaue a law by Moses therefore ther may a law be giuen likewise by the Bishops or th' Apostles wrote a new Testament therefore the Conuocation house may also write a Testament or Gospel bring it into the church If the Prophets practise will bear them ovt in the one I see no cause why it may not vphold them in the other Wel seing neyther Mr Gifford heretofore nor these ministers now can bring better defense for the work of their own hands wherewith they worship or rather prouoke the Lords I leaue them to consider of those lawes that euery where cry ovt against and shew the punishment of idolatrie Neyther is it needfull to keep the Reader with longer answer seing Mr Barrow in the fornamed books and Mr Greenwood in a peculiar treatise against these stinted prayers and seâ— worship haue proued the vnlawfulnes of them by many reasons which neyther these ministers nor any other haue yet taken away And when they write agayn let them not bring proofs for things that we deney not as that Daunds Psalmes may be sung in the church and that in our prayers we may vse or apply the words that other holy men before vsed in their prayers vpon like occasions both these we grant and practise but let them proue if they be able and their right hand can help them that their own writetnn prayers psalmes c. may be read and sung in churches churchâ—â— as Gods true worship and then also they may command the clowdes to rayn no more and may cause to cease the bottels of heauen Like to their former plea and maintenance of their seruice booke is also their answer for Catechismes as for Homilies it seemes they leaue the the defense of them to the simple priests that read them but Catechismes are vsed euen by the learned preachers therefore somewhat they say for them as that the principles of religion were taught in the churches of old RoÌ„ 2.20 6 17.2 Tim 1 13 Heb. 5.12.13 14 and 6 1.2 But these ministers are eyther simple or very deceitfull so to turne away from the question For we neuer deneyed that the grounds and heads of Christian religion should be taught to the people far be it from vs but this we say the Prophets and Apostles are not found to prescribe set words for the minister to teach or the people to answer being examined And that therefore these Bishops and Priests are very presumptuous that wil take vpon them to doe that which Christs Apostles neuer did in the churches Agayn that if those men of God had to done yet seing the writings of Prophets and Apostles are canonicall scriptures and so are no mens writings now it will by no meanes follow that if they wrote catechismes to be vsed in the Church therefore men may writ some for like vse now Yea rather why are they not content with that which is already written in the scriptures but run to erroneous catechismes of humane writers such as is that authorized catechisme in the book of common prayer commanded to be vsed in the church of England Hauing heard what these godly ministers say for their people and seruice book I exspected somewhat also for defense of their own minister and the ecclesiasticall gouernment of