the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry
vpon ye to abandon and forsake as vtterly separated from the faith and from the Communion of Christ all the assemblies of the Church of England and all the particular members of the same theÌ„ a thicke couering of darkenes which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and scatter Ye lye in prison not as Christs poore afflicted seruants but for this grieuous and outragious sinne which no flesh is able to defend or mitigate and for sundry other abuses as shall appear by your bookes I saide that the fearefull end of one Boltom about twentie yeares past would not be forgotten You haue heard as you say pag. 208 that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church and so fel into that fearefull estate Seeke better information Master Barrow seeing the example may touch ye for the trueth is he did for the same causes that you doo vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England and was with sundry other separated from it And as it is constantly affirmed he was an elder in their secret Church and ofterward falling into deepe dispaire he could not be recouered but did hang himselfe The matâ—er which pressed him so sore was this that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himselfe Looke yee therefore vnto it in time and seeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vpon ye and that it be to late for it is euident vnto all that haue any true light in them that your offence herein can haue no excuse or colour beare not your selues vpon other things in your bookes for it shallâ—ppeare that where yee thinke your selues most deuine there Satan hath most deepely deluded yee glorie not of any sufferings vnles yee will haue those also to glorie which are bound in bedliâ—â— Hauing thus finished about wilfull obstinacie we come now to the fower principall accusations which ye bring against our Church The first is that we worship God after a false manner our worship being made of the inuention of man euen of that man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon vs. And here came the booke of common praier into question I did drawe your accusation into a Sillogisme and you accuse me to be so full of legiet dâ— main that ye had neede to looke to my fingers for ye say I haue left out certaine of your words as namely these wilfully obstinate and imposed Touthing these words wilfully obstinate looke Master Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke and see whether I did not answer them where you haue expressely set them downe looke also vpon your own booke now printed and you shall finde that both in the accusation you haue omitted these words wilfully abstinate and also passed by mine answer vnto them Now when these two that is the omitting the words and passing by the answer vnto them doo concurre here is a great shew of legier du maine on your part and yet you would lay it vpon me that haue not giuen the least suspitioÌ„ therof And for the word imposed you say I leaue it out and put c. in the place thereof I doo indeede setdowne c for these words erronious and imposed vpon them but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter Looke in the tenth page and see whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptisticall freedome which ye are not able to auoyde for this worde imposed Master Barrow looke vppon them learne modestie and blush if not for conscience yet that these things must now lie open to the view of the world And for the booke of common Praier although the question betwéene vs was not whether there bee faultes in it but whether it â—e as you tearme it a great pregnant Idoll full of heresies blasphemies a bominations whether there be any heresies in it And whether the best part of it be none other but a peece of swines flesh an abomination to the Lord Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God when I stand to iustifie by the word of God that in deede there is neither Idolatrie heresie nor blasphemie in it much lesse that it is full of them or the best part an abhomination For in mine answers and defence I doo not vndertake to cleare it of all faults hauing no occasion to meddle in that controuersie but to shew that there are no such faultes but that both the faithfull people of God haue and mayerre in also euen christian gouernours and teachers which are to reforme the church that if any doo see and be perswaded that they be corruptions and faultes yet not of that qualitie or degree as that they may for the same separate themselues from the fellowship of those which art otherwise minded this is the thing which I haue taken vpon mee to defend And if you Master Barrow wil not become a ranke heretick as if it please God you shall not to maintaine this opinion that we may not ioyne in that worship where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden and not reformed why doo you with wonderment crie out that this so large an exception of imperfections is the odde and onely exception that euer you heard of And doo you in very deede Master Barrow thinke that no such exception is to bee made but that where any error doth appeare in the worship a man is to separate himselfe Nay you will say when it is reproued and continued in and not reformed then a man is to forsake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God For they be obstinate and denie reformation Tell me then what if those that be to reforme be perswaded it is no error What if a great part of the multitude be so perswaded that it is no fault and so bee of diuerse mindes Will you deeme that you haue more skill to conuince them then the Apostles had Or will you refuse to ioyne as the Apostles did ioyne with the Church in Ierusalem that held and continued in a grosse error Doo you not see how by this your doctrine you open the doore as wide vnto all Schismaticks as euer did the Donatists or the Annabaptists seeing there will euer be errors and some that cannot be made to see them Will you not see how you contrarie Saint Paule directly who in whole chapters almost as I haue noted before dooth labour nothing else but to perswade the Christians that held diuers opinions touching some things in Gods worship yet to ioyne together Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words with your accustomed reuilings and slanders haue you here heaped vp But I will deale onely with that which is not answered alreadie You charged our Church with Romish fasts I charged you with falâ—e accusing because the Church of Rome most wickedly against the Crosse of Christ placeth the worship of God and the merite of eternall life in fasting which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth You labour to shew faultes in
thee that I may not cut thee off vers 9. It were too long to repeate all the Scriptures where the Lord pronounceth that he chose them for his owne names sake that they dealt vnfaithfully and yet he kept them as his people and forgaue their iniquities euen for himselfe You will say that Gods couenant was to the elect among them but the rest were not vnder the couenant nor the visible Church This is your grieuous blindnes that you cannot see that many stand outwardly vnder the couenant and are the visible Church which yet receiue no benefite thereby being wicked euen voyd of faith And for this cause although the great swarme of the Israelites were wicked reprobates and as the Prophet sayth but a remnant saued yet for their outward profession the whole Nation was euer sayd to stand vnder the couenant Otherwise how could it be sayd That Christ came among his owne and his owne receiued him not Ioh. 1. How could these wicked infidels be called his owne in any other respect but that they stood outwardly vnder the couenant and were the visible Church And therefore when the bodie of that people should stand no longer vnder the couenant to be the visible Church but as our Sauiour sayth the kingdome of God should be taken from them Math. 21. The Lord to shew that he had still kept his couenant with them euen vntill that time in which they now breake off themselues and that hee had giuen their mother no bill of diuorse asketh where the bill of diuorse of their mother is by which he had put her away Esay 50. vers 1. The tenne Tribes which fell from the house of Dauid and worshipped Idols were yet in some sort euen the whole bodie of them vnder the Couenant and were so farre the visible Church for otherwise how should the Lord bee called their God For when Benhadab made warre agaynst Achab and tooke the foyle and his seruants counselled him to enterprise the warre agayne and to fight with them in the valleyes saying That the God of Israel was the God of the mountaines the Lord tooke it agaynst himselfe and gaue them the ouerthrow the second time 1. King 20. Achazias K. of Israel being sicke vpon a fall he had taken sent his messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the God of Ekron Elias the Prophet is sent to meete them and to say Is it not because there is no God in Israel that you goe to enquire of Baalzebub the God of Ekron 2. King 1. Now for the places which you alleage that they became not his people you doo but peruert them For the song Deuteron 32. vers 5. If you will vnderstand it so as you here apply it how should they after bee called his people and his seruants in the same song vers 36. The breuitie and the placing of the words in that sentence doo make it darke This is the sense That the peruerse generation corrupt themselues by their owne vice which is not of his children For the holines of Gods children is from him but when they transgresse and corrupt themselues it is from their owne vice And hee calleth all the whole people his sonnes and daughters not in respect of some former estate as you vainly imagine seeing that very fewe of them were his sonnes and daughters indeede in their best estate but in respect that they stood outwardly vnder his couenant and professed his name And that the Lord sayth Yesterday which was my people is risen as an enemie Mich. 2. vers 8. is not to shewe that they were now quite remooued and cast off by the Lord from being vnder his couenant though the multitude were the Church but in name but their hostilitie among themselues both in Iuda and Israel The ende which God sayd was come to his people Amos. 8. is meant of their subuersion and captiuitie Will you say that they were neuer after nor no longer Gods people If you dare not say this why doo you alleage that place You would haue me shewe some place in the Scriptures where God maketh his couenaut without this condition that they shall bee his people and obey him That is not the question Master Barrow but this whether when men breake couenant and promise with God by disobeying him whose couenant yet they chalenge his couenant be broken and abrogated towards them And for this I shewed you the plaine Scripture Psalm 89. where the Lord saith If they should for sake his law he would visite their offences or defections with the rod but he will not disanull his mercie towards them nor falsifie his fayth That he will not prophane his couenaunt nor alter the thing which is gone out of his lippes Master Barrow what can be more expresse then this to shew the stablenes of Gods souenant dependeth not vpon our obedience or vpon that condition which you speake of and say the couenant standeth no longer then they stand obedient Why did you not answere this place but require still to haue that shewed which is playnly shewed you before Solomon on his part brake couenant with God will you say he did forfeyte the couenant I conclude therfore with the saying of Saynt Paul where hee speaketh of the Iewes what preferment they had aboue other What if some of them were vnfaythfull shall their vnbeliefe make the fayth of God of none effect God for bid Yea let God be true and euery man a lyer Rom. 4. Cease therefore Master Barrow to hang the stablenes of Gods couenant vpon the obedience of man and do not so peruersly reason against the truth in affirming that the couenant of God was disanulled toward the Iewes not to stand as the visible Church before such time as they had reiected Christ The next thing is that I say eyther wee are within the couenant from our Aucestors and haue the seale thereof euen Baptisme or else your selues are without Baptisme and so must either with the Catabaptists rebaptize or else holde the couenant without a seale Neyther of these you will doo and yet stand in it that we haue no true Church nor true Sacraments This therefore is your answere The Israelites in their Schisme and the Iewes in their Apostasie still had and vsed Circumcision This Circumcision was no true Sacrament vnto them neither sealed the Lords couenant vnto them in that estate Yet was this circumcision true Circumcision concerning the outward cutting and was vpon their repentance and returne neither defaced nor reiterate but they were restored to the Temple and receiued to the pasouer In like manner in this generall Apostasie and defection from the Gospell the Baptisme continued in these Apostaticall and false Churches cannot in this estate thus administred be sayd a true Sacrament or seale of Gods couenant vnto them Yet concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme the outward action neede not and ought not to bee againe repeated after the abuse thereof in the false Church is purged away
then in your second accusation your grounds and reasons are flat Donatisme that in your blind furie you condemne all Churches both of auncient time and in these dayes most deepely reuiling and rayling at all the most excellent instruments which God hath raised vp vnto his Church what remayneth but to warne simple men to take heed they bee not seduced by you Thus much for the second now to the third accusation The third accusation is that we haue a false Antichristian ministrie imposed c. IN your former writings where ye came to deale about our ministrie ye were in a great displeasure hauing made so great a chalenge for that I did intercept this busines frō the hands of the learned vnto whome ye say it did by many rights more neerely appertayne then vnto me I made answere to this that in very deede it is no reason that such as you should be encountred by men of great learning because in all your dooings yee are so full of false accusations so rash so presumptuously bold in powring foorth without any discretion whatsoeuer lighteth into your brayn ye are so miserably ignorant so full of foule errors being altogether vnlearned this onely excepted that yee haue scraped some things out of other mens writings which yet ye peruert that all wise men both of learned and vnlearned doo playnely see it is but mad frensie by which yee are led For let the things which I haue noted out of these your last bookes witnesse vnto all I will not say the learned for what should they spend time about them but to all the Artificers and husbandmen which haue any sound knowledge whether I haue in this charged ye with more then is true Ye would beare the Reader in hand that the learned men doo abstayne from dealing with ye because they know our cause is bad and that it is better therefore it should be raked vp then appeare the worse by the handling Ye sayd moreouer that if I haue consulted with my learned Brethren they would haue giuen me counsell not to write but to deale in the pulpit where it may bee without controulment least the fowlenes of things should appeare To one part of this I made answere that whereas yee doo imagine that all the learned are afrayd ye would be too hard for them if they should deale with yee and therefore they doo not nor dare not meddle it is nothing so But as one among the beasts ye know of whome it is sayd had gotten a Lyons skinne vpon him and went about and frayed all the simpler beasts vntill one more subtill whether he espied the long eares or whether he heard him bray which is nothing like the roaring of a Lion made answere that otherwise indeede hee should haue béene scared as well as the rest For you comming with a most terrible outcrie against our Church ye wil néeds haue vs think the Lion roareth Let not the Reader suppose that I speake this vpon mine owne conceipt for in the fourth page of the Epistle of your other booke which ye call A briefe discouery of the false Church ye haue set it downe so your selues Ye would not haue those dreadfull things which ye denounce lesse feared because they are pronounced by a frayle man but would haue vs all know that the Lyon roareth and that the Lyon roareth not in the Forrest if no pray be present Doubtles your voyce hath beene terrible and especially at the first you scared many of the simpler sorte which tooke it to bee the roaring of a Lyon But ye must vnderstand that the learned euen at the first did discerne the voyce not to be the roaring of a Lion but the braying of him that put on the Lyons skinne Therfore ye are much deceiued in thinking they all feare and tremble at it They see playnely that it is but mad frensie and so they disdayne to deale with it And for mine owne parte if I did not see what hauock the Donatists made how many the Annabaptists seduced and how weake much of our people are I should count it great folly to giue you anie answere And now whereas I did require if there bee any spark of modestie left in ye to make some colourable shew that the learned would councell not to deale in these matters which they knowe can not bee defended but by the discussing will become more odious thus ye make answere That these preachers had taken this course say you among themselues we know certaynely by a letter that two of the chiefe of them sent vnto vs denying that conference which they had before promised because we denyed their Church and ministrie After that two of them being procured to our prison denied to deale with vs concerning those exceptions we made agaynst their church and ministrie alleadging that they were forbidden by their brethren to deale with vs in those matters To be short what else can with any probabilitie be coniectured to bee the hindrance of the first company of preachers that at the first sent vnto vs to know the causes of our dislike promising to assent or to shew vnto vs the causes why they could not that they vpon the sight of that little paper wherein we set downe vnto them the causes of our separation from these parish assemblies as also what we purposed in our owne assemblies neuer as yet could be drawne to make any answere in writing or conference if not that they perceiued that they were neither able to defend their estate neither yet had fayth to leaue it for feare of persecution and danger Who can now doubt but that Master Barrow and Master Greenewood be honest simple dealing men Who can say they haue slaundred the learned or that they haue vttered any thing rashly when they now affirme that they did for certainty know that the preachers had taken such a course among themselues and alleadge such proofe for the certaintie hereof as no man néedeth to doubt of the matter For will any man bee so impudent as to lie and to publish it to those which do know he doth Iye I haue heard Master Barrow by such as haue dealt with yee that ye make no conscience of lying and nowe it falleth out so here for one of those which came to the prison comming to the fight of your booke hath set downe in the margent that ye make a most shameles lie It may be in this ye will stand vpon your Pantoffles it is but your yea and his nay But for the letter you speake of which the other two whome ye name sent vnto ye I haue talked with them both to knowe why they denied conference and what they had written They say they denied conference with ye onely because yee denied them to be Christians to pray with them and that ye denied all the preachers in the land to bee Christians and all those which ioyne with them not hoping that ye could take any fruit by their writings
which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the
is not cast out of his house nor made subiect these be most friuolous and fantasticall imaginations but in his most high and soueraigne power he vseth Antichrist and Satan as the instruments of his wrath not vtterly to rase and destroy his Temple but miserably to afflict the chosen and so seduce the reprobate euen all wicked hypocrites which are in the visible Church I knowe not what you will vnderstand by diuiding but the diuell may in some sense be sayd to diuide with God in that he receiueth one part vnto damnation The third is If Antichrist sit in the church then the church of Christ may remayne subiect vnto and be gouerned by Antichrist Here we must distinguish First the visible Church consiseth of men and of Gods ordinances The men are of two sorts the elect and the reprobate He exerciseth a sauage tyrannie and oppresseth the elect whome yet he cannot bring into his subiection to make them hang their faith upoÌ„ him or his lawes For God did miraculously preserue a remnant in the poperie which were not vtterly poysoned He corrupteth the lawes and ordinances of Christ but yet had not power giuen him to destroy all His full dominion is ouer the reprobate which receiue his marke and worship him The fourth is If Antichrist sit in the Church then the Church is subiect vnto two heads and Christ then is not the onely head This is fully answered in the former for his tyrannie and vsurpation dooth not make him head but vnto those whose head Christ is not more then by hypocriticall profession of his name The fift is If Antichrist in the Church then Antichrists ministers and marked seruants may be brought into and set ouer the Church of God then is not Christs ministrie which he hath ordeined in his Gospell and his Church permanent vnto the worlds end but variable at the will of man and then may the Church of God cast out Christs ministrie and receiue Antichrists This is also most friuolous for as Antichrist did almost destroy all but yet not all in other things so in the ministrie for the ministrie of Christ was not vtterly destroyed Agayne the Church if you vnderstand Gods true people did not this but Antichrist did it The sixt is That if Antichrists lawes may be brought and set vp and remayne in the Church then Christ is not the onely Prophet and law giuer and then may the Church be built vpon another foundation then vpon Gods word Christ is the onely true Prophet whose lawes onely are wholesome Antichrist hath vsurped a power to make lawes and to set them vp in the Church The elect though some of them for a time haue gone a stray and followed Antichrist vntill it pleased GOD to open their eyes and many of them holding Christ haue been infected and stayned with sundrie errors of Antichrist yet their saluation being onely through faith it cannot be sayd that they were built vpon any other foundation then that which the Prophets and Apostles haue layd The reprobate which haue worshipped the beast though in respect that hauing been borne vnder the Christian profession and had the true seale of the Couenant and professed the name of Christ they might bee the visible Church or of the visible Church yet they were not built vpon Christ vnto saluation but vpon the lawes of Antichrist vnto destruction The seuenth is That if all Antichrists abominations heresies and Idolatries may bee brought into and remayne in the Church of God then no blasphemie heresie Apostasie or any thing that man can commit or deuise can break the couenant If the fayth of God might be made of none effect by the vnfaithfulnes of men it were a wofull case The couenant of God is founded vpon free grace The Lord would not euen because of his Couenant suffer the deuill and Antichrist vtterly to deface his Temple but preserued the holy seede preserued some of his ordinances yea so farre that in some sorte the Couenant was not disanulled to the very reprobate but that outwardly they stoode vnder it in their Apostasie and it might bee said of them though indeede they were no true Children as Saint Paul sayth of the rebellious Iewes theirs is the Couenant and the Adoption The eight is That if those that worship the beast and his Image may be sayd to be in the Church and their seede outwardly within the Couenant then the most abominable and execrable in this estate may be sayd members of Christ washed and purged with his blood sainctified and led by his spirite in assurance of saluation for none can be sayd to bee within the Church but the members of the Church And whosoeuer we may affirme to be within the Church those so long as they continue in that estate we are also to iudge assuredly saued for any thing to vs reuealed or knowen to the contrary These â—re things easily spoken by such as are bolde to vtter whatsoeuer they imagine The Prophets complayned that the great multitude both of Iuda and the ten Tribes were rebels and that the Lord had but a remnant among them shew when that multitude of open wicked ones and their seede were cast out from being the visible Church then shew when they were receiued in agayn For both these you must do because the whole nation when Christ came were the children of the Couenant it is sayd that Christ came among his owne and his owne receiued him not You must prooue that the Scribes and Pharisies the high Priests and all the Capitall enemies of our Sauiour Christ were deemed vndoubtedly saued euen when they shewed their enmitie against him For they were then in the Church They could not sit in Moses chayre and not be in the Church The Uineyard was not taken from those wicked husbandmen which had slayn the seruants vntill they had slayn the sonne and heire himselfe These things are so manifest by the Scriptures Master Barrow that if it shall not please God to open your eyes to see your palpable grosse ignorauce and bolde presumption yet others may see and tremble least God giue them ouer also for the pride of their hearts Whereas I sayd that the Apostasie is in the Church but not the Church you think it strange repugnancie Yet indéed there is none as may appeare by that which I haue set down before and should appeare vnto you if your minde were not so deepely infected with the principles of Donatisme You runne still vpon this Rock that because none ought to bee in the Church but such as appeare godly therefore no open Idolaters can be sayd to be in the visible Church to stand outwardly and their seede in any respect vnder the couenant I haue plainely prooued the contrary What ought to be is one thing and what hath béen or what is is another To your other question I answere that it is no Schisme to depart from the Church of Rome although in some respects they were