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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

and agree with them in that which is truely popish and Antichristian as Error Pride Schisme Censoriousness Malice Slander sophistical Subtilty as their writings and doings do declare especially Mr. J. O. in his dealing with Doctor Brian in his unfaithful publication of the disputation at Kenelmworth and in his other bitter and insolent Book of Examination afterward The second proof of his partiality is this when Doctor Brian hath proved our Churches of England to be true Churches of Christ by convincing arguments Nam quae non prosunt singula juncta valent Disp p. 6. convincing if taken together though all of them be not of equal evidence and vigour● all that avails nothing towards Mr. O. his satisfaction unless he prove an impertinency to the Question viz. That they were true Churches from their very foundation that is as he explaineth himself more fully elsewhere that all the parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints and that those Churches gathered by preaching onely 500. Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply p. 30 37. Ibid. p. 24. Disp p. 5. years before Augustine the Monk were such as our Parishes now are or that they are such now as they were then and this he maketh the life of the Doctors cause and if he prove not this saith he he doth nothing whereas it is neither the life nor limb of his cause no neither hair nor nail of it neither a skirt nor an hem but indeed meet nothing to the purpose And therefore the Doctor did justly and discreetly decline it as impertinent saying it is our Churches present not their primitive state which I undertake to vindicate and this upon very good reason For First The Churches whose primitive constitution was the best and nearest to that of the Apostler both in time matter and form as that of Jerusalem Rome Antioch and the Churches of Asia long since are fallen from the faith and have unchurched themselves by their Apostasie Secondly It is but a Jesuitical evasion from the pertinency and life of the cause of a true Christian Church to wave the present qualifications and notes of it and to put all the weight and stress of the trial upon the Historical report of precedent times as while we prove our Church to be a true Church and our Faith a true Faith by the Scriptures as Doctor Featley d●d against Fisher the Jesuite that would be taken for no good proof with him unless he deduced the visibility of the Protestant Professors through all ages from the Apostles to Luthers time and he professed he would not proceed in the dispute unless that were first done as is observed before Thirdly If it were pertinent and were also proved by Chronological History it would serve but to make up a meer Humane and Historical Faith which is not effectual to Salvation and the doubt of it where it is required and not proved as it is no easie matter to do may raise perplexing doubts and fears of salvation in weak though well-minded Christians as causing suspicious conceits of their being in a true Church out of which as out of Noahs Ark the common saying is none are saved Yet this unsound and groundless assertion of his which hath neither proof of Scripture Reason or of any humane Author of credit or account be not onely putteth into the very front of his Examination frontinulla fides but repeateth it over and over both in the Disputation and Examination to puzzle the simple Hearers of the one and Readers of both Disp p. 1 6 7 12. Exam. p. 11 12 13 24 27 28 30 37. and to make them believe that there was somewhat in it which made the Doctor afraid to meddle with it whereas it was a meer extravagancy from the question in hand which to such as are intelligent shews Mr. O. to be a Jesuitical shifter and that he may appear more and worse then a Jesuite he taketh upon him to be a Pope peremptorily defining tanquam ex Cathedra Pestilentiae not only that our Churches have never been true Churches from the foundation of them but that it is not possible for them to be made true by reformation Thus in the Title page of his Examination wherein his ignorance confidence and imprudence are all of them superlative and worthy of none other answer then a scornful silence Yet the other part of his partiality which now I am to prove will implicitly at least confute it fully for he that is so injurious as to impose upon the Doctor such an impertinency as the life of his cause and to regard none of his proofs though never so pregnant for the truth of our Churches is so gracious to his own side as to resolve that a true Church may be constituted thus A company of true Believers assembled in the Name of Christ willing to follow him in the way of his ordinances revealed in his word and yet seeing their want of a personal succession and yet knowing it their duty and the will of Christ it should be performed did appoint one that was unbaptized to reassume and set afoot this ordinance of Christ And if so how partial is Mr. O. who makes it impossible for our Churches to be made true by any reformation for how easie a matter is it for Churches to be reformed after that manner The third partiality of Mr. O. appeareth in his Epistle to his Schismatical Sister-Churches where he taketh upon him to make a long Paraphrase on the words of Ananias to Saul Acts 22.18 but when Doctor Brian makes but a short one on the words of Peter Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your Children saying if the promise be made to believers and their children the command must reach not only to them but to their children as running thus be baptized you and your children for the promise is made to you and to your children To this Mr. O. in a jeering manner replye●● As if Peter Were not wise enough to express his own meaning to direct us who should be or the grounds upon which they should be baptized without your priestly prudence surely might you have come to the honour or been worthy to have been a Dictator to Peter you would have taught him to have said some what from whence Infants right of Baptism might have been proved With this partiality appeareth a spice of his insolency formerly observed But if Doctor B●ian had been worthy and had taken upon him to play the Dictator he had acted that part a great deal better by deducing Infants Baptisme from the words of Peter then Mr. O. did dictating such an Aphorism out of his own fancy concerning necessary recourse to the primitive constitution of a Church to prove it to be a true Church at present which we have now examined and refuted The fourth partiality I shall mention is this he will not be turned over by Dr. Brian to Mr. Hollingworth for satisfaction

long to answer his unlearned follies Of this over-eager affection to dissenting altercation we find many examples among the Romanists as Iohn Eccius whom l Johannes Eckius vel Eccius catholicae sidei adversus Lutherum ac reliquos haereticos propugnatur insignis Antipossevinus Appa Sacri Tom. 1. p. 871. Possevine commends for a notable Champion against Luther and other Hereticks who when a disputation was appointed at Ratishon ann 1541. betwixt Iulius Pilugius Iohannes Gropperus and himself for the popish party and Philip Melancthon Martin Bucer and Iohn Pistorius for the Protestants m Illi verecundèse excusant ut alii magis idonei constituantur petunt omnes praeter Eccium is enim paratü se diccbat instructū Sleidan Cōment l. 13. p. 279. all but Eccius modestly desired to be excused and intreated that others more fit might be appointed to discusse the points in difference betwixt them but he said he was ready prepared for the purpose yet it was to little purpose for though he were so hot upon the matter God took him off with another heart for n Aliquanto post in febrim incidit it a quidem ut interesse non posset Sleid. Ibid. 14. princip lib. p. 281. he seized on him with a feaver and thereby served him with a prohibition that he could not be present of him it is to be noted that though he were so forward to dispute he wrote one discourse against disputing with Hereticks and o See Possevinus ubi suprà another that Hereticks were to be burned which sheweth that he would not have their minds enligthned with instruction but their bodies inflamed to destruction by burning faggots reared round about them Iohn Cochlens his mate in malignity to Protestant truths was so vehemently and confidently bent by disputation to oppose such as professed themselves Protestants that he offered himself to dispute with any Lutheran upon perill to lose his life if he failed in his proofs but his confidence is the lesse to be regarded because as he persecuted truth p Eccius commentar rerum inde gestarum ann 1531. p. 271. under the name of Heresie so he published Heresy under the title of truth for he was the first that set forth the workes of Iohannes Maxentins q Cochleus opera Johannis Maxentii sub nomine orthodoxi patris primus edidit Tom. 4. Biblioth Patr. p. 433. as an orthodox father whom some of his own side more learned then himself as Margarinus Dola Bigne have since dicovered to be an r Opera Maxentii cautissimè legenda nec illis fidendum cùm lateat Eutychianae haereseos venenum Ib. c. p. 445. Entychian Heretick as the reader may see in the fourth tome of Bibliotheca Patrum the Eutychian heresie acknowledged but one nature in Christ and that was the divine and s Alphonsus de castro adversus haereses lib. 4. titulo de Christi haeres 4 col 4278. held that our bodies at the resurrection shall be more subtill then the wind so that they shall neither be seen nor felt After Eccius and Cochleus was set up the sect of the Iesuits which some place upon the year t Ibid. l. 13. titulo de resurrectione haeres 2. col 906. 1530. some in u Buccalzer Jud. Chronol p. 534. 1540. Among them none ever set a bolder face upon so bad a cause as the w Ludov. Lucius Hist Jesuit c. 1. p. 1. Iesuit Edmund Campian did who made a thrasonicall challenge to dispute with the Vniversities of England reducing the reasons of his dispute to ten heads which Possevine a fiery-spirited Iesuit for the good liking he hath of them and fearing in time so small a book as they made might be lost incorporated into his “ See Possevinus Bibliotheca select part p. 309. ad 324. first part of his Bibliotheca Selecta In these reasons of his offer he seemes cum ratione insanire to be mad with such a mistake atheirs who think they have reason when they kill Christs servants to think they do him service John 16.2 His confident expressions in his cause argue either a strange imposture of a deluding spirit or a brasen impudence of a bragging Jesuit x Si hoc praestitero coelos esse Sanctosesse fidem esse Christum esse causam obtinui Camp in Epist Academicis Oxonii florentibus Ib. 320. If I do make good saith he that there is an Heaven that there be Saints that there is faith that there is a Ghrist I have won the victory y Patres si quando licebit accedere confectum est praelium tam sunt nostri quàm Gregorius ipse 13. filiorum Ecclesiae pater amantissimus ● Ibid. ratione 5. p. 315. If we come to try our differences by the fathers the war is at an end they are as certainly ours as Pope Gregorie the thirteenth a most loving Father of the Children of the Church But when he was disputed within the Tower ann 1581. he that was so loud and vigorous in his challenge was so low and feeble in performance that it gave them cause to conceive who had well observed them both z See Alex. Nowell and Will Dayes Preface before the dispute printed ann 1583. that the book was none of his which was published in his name howsoever he that reads his challenge and the true relations of the dispute or conference fore-mentioned will find that his rhetorick was more plausible in the one then his logick powerfull in the other so that we can neither say according to Sampsons riddle out of the strong came sweetnesse Judges 14.14 Nor out of the sweetnesse came strength For it was his weaknesse of judgement to take so great a burden on him as he was nor able to bear and the weaknesse of his cause and judgment both which suffered it to sink when he took it into protection and undertook to support it against so many vigorous Assailants as he provoked to oppose it when one learned man was able to turn that counterfeit Divine into a meer Thraso his reasons into bubbles his threats into trifles and vapours of vanishing smoke “ Campianum ita fregit Whitakerus ut omnes sanae mentis facile viderent ementitum Theologum in verum Thrasonem rationes in ampullas denique omnes minas in meras nugas fumum levissimum evanuisse Melch. Adamus in vita Whitakeri part poster p. 169. as Melchior Adamus very fitly setteth forth his folly and foile There have been some women who have so much forgotten the frailty and modesty of their sex as to make chattings to learned men for disputation in matters of Religion of this there is a memorable story but how true it is I cannot tell because cause I have it but upon the report of a Parsons in the Preface to his report of 10. disp p. 29 30. added to the third part of his treatise intituled the 3 conversions of

accusation of moving sedition among all the Iewes throughout the world Act ●q 5. he saith v. 12. that his accusers neither found him in the Temple disputing with any man nor raising up the people neither in the Synagogues nor in the City implying that disputation did dispose men to popular disturbance and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other the Catholick meeting in a lesse number then the Donatists for a publick dispute made this advantage of the difference viz. That if any tumults should arise the disorder could not in reason be imputed unto them who were fewer but to their adversaries that in number exceeded them Pauciores catholici q●●m Donatisl●e ●e si tumultus esset minori numero non impataretur August Operts breviculi collat Praefat Tom. 7. part 1. p. 686. Though sometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one side then of a multitude of sober minded Citizens on the other whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry when those who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K●ff●ns contestation against you and your brother Dr. Grewe behaved themselves so rudely that the Committee residing there thought it necessary to forbid your dispu●tes and the City-Magistrates denyed the use of their Town-Hall for that purpose though they had promised it before their coming when there appeared no such perill of breach of the publick Peace as after their coming they soon perceived How it came to passe that notwithstanding the declared unwillingnesse of the Committee and Magistrates of the City against the publick dispute you fitted them with a publick place and polemical entertainment who came so far out of their way as from London to Coventry to quarrell with you I shall shew in a more convenient place And to go on with observations of like sort I very well remember that in London when Sir Iohn Gayor was Lord Major there was a disputation betwixt Mr. William Ienkins then Preacher at Christ-Church and Mr. Benjamin Cox in Mr. I. his house at which I was present being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that dispute there was another resolved on betwixt Mr. Iames Cranford and the same Mr. Cox and that within a few dayes after but before the time concluded on I had occasion to bring his Lordship a lift of such Ministers as I thought fit to be Preachers at Pauls as he had requested me to do and then I telling him the discourse we had inducing me to it the dispute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox and that I was present at it and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after he replyed that he would have suffered neither of them if he had had timely advertisement of them both but since the one was past and could not be recalled he would send his warrant to prevent the other and that it might be certainly and speedily done he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it which I did whereupon the parties served with it desisted from their purpose There was another disputation more publickly bespoken and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two Cov. Antagonists and Mr. Calumy at his Church in Alderman-bury but such animosities of Spirit and symptomes of tumult began to stir and to gather near the time and place of the publick meeting that there was great cause to fear that how ever it fared with the truth the common peace would be much endangered if that concourse were not hindred and therefore by the civil Magistrates it was forbidden and as in duty it was requisite accordingly forborn And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magistrates though their proper office serve principally for the preservation of peace among the common people but some of them have the lesse liking of disputes in Religion because they fear it must be prophaned by polemicall contestations of such as are l Hoc morbi fere innatum est hominum ingeiis ut cedere nesciant Erasm ubi suprà too stout to stoop to the truth and so m Est hoc pertinaciae plerisque mortalium ingeniis insitumut quod semel quocunque casu pronunciaverint nunquam ●u●●… desinant etiamsi compererint perperä pronunciasse Ibid. p. ult pertinacious in their opinions as not to recede from what they have pronounced nay though they see their errour and that they have pronounced amisse and this Erasmus observeth as a disease and infirmity naturally incident to most men And as the Magistrates are publick persons if withall they be religious they cannot think it fit the common interest in sacred and Catholick truths of doctrine and practise should be permitted to private persons to tosse to and fro as a Ball betwixt two Rackets in wrangling altercation This moved the Emperour Marcianus in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon n Ne cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere Baron Annal an 452. num 1. Tom. p. 187. to decree that none should publickly dispute of matters of Faith o Clericus fuerit qui c. consortio clericorum mov●a●ur fi militia praectnctus sit cingulo spoliabitur caeteri sanct issima urbe pellantur Baron Ibid. num 4. col 688. and he laid a penalty on such as presumed to act contrary to what he had decreed as for Clerks to be put out of the number of the Clergy for a Souldier that his helt and sword shall be taken from him for Citizens to be expelled the City and for others their contumacy was to be p Competentibus suppliciis subjugandi Ibid. subdurd with other competent purishments There are two great opposites to each other too opposite to all disputations of Religion the Turke and the Pope who though their Pride make them ambitious of the highest place the head their wickednesse makes them worthy of the lowest the taile Deut. 28.44 1. First for the Turk Mahomet that famous impostor and false Prophet the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans not onely forbids all disputes about the Religion of his Bible rather Babell the Alcoran but instructs his deluded disciples how to answer them who are disposed to dispute q Tecum disputare volentibus dic Deum so●●… omnes tuo actus agnoscere qui die postremo lites omnes contrarietates discutiet Alcaroni c. 32. Say unto them saith he God alone knowes all thy acts and at the last day will discusse all controversies and contrarieties Again r Homines incredulos taliter alloquere ego quidem legem vestram minime sequor nec vos meam igitur mihi mea maneat vobisque vestra Ibid. c. 109. to incredulous men say thus I follow not your Law nor you mine therefore let me alone with that which is mine and I will let you alone with yours 2. For the ſ Nobis nullum fas est

Recusants and for the rest which were Noble men Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of quality with some few Divines there was not any one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they have openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the Protestant Religion by it and Mr. Doctor Featlys Refutation of an Answer to the Book intituled the Fisher c. p. 130. Buggs himselfe whose satisfaction by this conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church gave thanks after the Disputation to Sir Humph. Lynde for the meeting and assured him that he was well resolved now of his Religion that he saw plainly it was but the Jesuites bragging without proofs and whereas formerly by their Sophistical perswasions be was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth utterly disclaim the Popish Priests company and their Doctrine also Though it be a wicked thing to lye albeit it were for a good intent yea for the glory of God Iob 13.7 Rom. 3.7 8. and no wickedness as such is matter of laughter but rather of sorrow yet they mingle such folly and absurdity with their lying as the Priests of Baal did with worshipping of their Idol that they deserve to be derided for it as they were by the Prophet Elijah 1 King 18.26 27. and the more because it is frequent with them and by some of the approved as a pious fraud but sometimes their malignity produceth sad effects especially of publick disputes as is observable concerning the Dispute of that Illustrious and Incomparable man the Lord Morney as Doctor e Illustri incomparabili viro Domino Philippo Mornayo c. Epist dedicat praefix Critic Sacr. Rivet calls him and the Bishop of Eureux at Fountainbleau forementioned the Noble and Learned Lord confiding in the truth of his Allegations which were excepted against as hath been said wanting the use of his own Library and forced to make use of his Adversaries Books they brought him one Book over night of one Edition another in the morning of another and withal as f Doctor Sutlives Answer to Parsons l. 3. c. 12. and out of him Mr. Birkbeck in his Answer to the Antidotist added to the second Edition of the Protestants Evid p. 474. some have written put a powder into the places quoted the smell whereof was like to have cost him his life that he g Serres French Hist Anno 1600. p. 1053. fell very sick upon the first days conference so as they could proceed no farther is testified in the report of their Dispute in the French History and some of his Adversaries spake suspiciously of his sickness as if it were more in his mind then in his Body being astonisshed with the success of the praludium of that dayes Velitation which h Plessaeus attonitus successu praecedentis velitationis apud Gisbertum Voetium de desperata causa papatus l. 3. sect 2. p 681. col 2. Gisbertus Voetius disproves and concerning the cause of his disease he saith nothing of poyson because he takes it from such Authors of the Popish party as if they knew it to be true would rather conceal it if they could then let it come abroad into the world But the matter is probable enough First because there are such poysons as will not onely make one sick but kill him too though he neither eat them nor drink them as by anointing the leaves of a book with poyson whereby i Berkbeck ex Binfield ubi ante Averroes is said to have killed Avicen by poysoning of clothes arms seats saddles whereof k Joh. Mariana de Rege c. l. 1. c. 7. p. 67. Mariana the Jesuite shewes many examples in his book De Rege and Regis Institutiones yea a man may be killed by carrying a poysoned Torch l Anno 1574. Carolus Cardinalis Lotharingiae diem obiit non sine suspicione veneni facis per noctent praelatae pestifero odore cerebro corrupto Bucolz Index chronol p. 638. ex Thuano so was the Cardinal of Loraine a great and busie man in the Councel of Trent poysoned with the smoke of a Torch carried before him in the night Secondly it is not improbable that some of the Lord Morney or Plesses enemies might both know that there were such poysons and where to procure them and how to apply them Haereticis obstinatis beneficium est quod de hac vita tollantur nam quò diutiùs vivunt cò plures errores excogitāt plures pervertunt ma jorem sibi damnationem acquirunt Bellarm. Tom. 2. l. 3. dc Laicis c. 21. verbis ultimis for it seems by that we now noted of the Cardinal of Loraine which fell out An. 47.15 that destructive arts were neither unknown nor unpracticed at that time and the dispute betwixt the L. M. and the Bishop of Eureux was 26. years after Any such wickedness is the more probable of a Papist against a Protestant because of the Popish Doctrine which is this it is a benefit for obstinate Hereticks to be taken out of this life for the longer they l●ve the more errors they invent and the more they pervert and procure to themselves the greater damnation It was not to be expected but the disputation being broken off by the L. M. his occasion the Papists would insult and report whatsoever might make for their own glory and his disparagement as indeed they did but how poorly the Popish Bishop began to make good his charge and challenge against the L. M. the learned Reader may see by that which m Gisbert Voetius de desperata causa papatus l. 3. Sect. 2. c. 10. à p. 680 ad 692. Gisbert Voetius hath written of it in his Book Of the desperate cause of the Papacy and by the excellent n A refutation of calumnious relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis and Monsieur of Eureux by one against N. D. I. P. 3. part printed by Arn. Hatfield An. 1600. Refutation of the Tract set out by the L. M. after the Dispute for his own just defence to which the Bishop his Adversary o Perronus ad illum librum nunquam respondit Ibid. And this was 35. years after for Voetius his book was printed An. 1655. and the dispute was An. 1600. and this Apologet. Treat soon after never made any answer But the most certain and remarkable issue or effect of this Dispute was that p Serres French History ad Ann. 1600. p. 1053. Canoy one of the Commissioners for the Dispute President in the Chamber of the Edict at Charters left his profession of the Reformed Religion and became a Romish Catholick many thought that Casaubon the other Protestant Commissioner and Greek Reader to King H. the Fourth would have followed the same course but he left not the world long in this opinion having

Scholar who hath least knowledge is apt to be lifted up with pride 1 Tim. 3.6 and who but an ignorant and arrogant man would in the Title-page of his Examination of the Doctors Reply affront him so well known to be every way a man of great worth with such disdainful and disgraceful words as these The Invalidity of his Answers his Sophistical helpless impertinent self-contradicting Allegations are presented to himself and others c. And as he beginneth so he holds on the same insulting style and concluding as he began Ibid. p. 115. I have saith he passed through your Reply and it is proved empty in relation to the Vindication of your Ordination and Entrance And in the last pag. but one of his Examination his words are these Ibid. p. 129. Thus in the midst of many Employments Temporal and Spiritual seldome allowing me one hours opportunity together to attend on this task I have given you saith he to Doctor Brian and the world an account of the unsatufactoriness and insufficiency of your Answers And yet he confesseth the Doctor so sufficient See pag. 15. of his Epist to the Churches of his way 1 King 12.10 that he is as well able to draw something out of any thing any thing out of nothing to his present purpose as any man he knows in England But for all that when he came under your hands mighty Mr. O. whose little finger Rohoboam like is thicker than the loyns of Solomon he was able to do nothing but marre his own Cause and shame himself that you might have the more glorious victory over both It was well for him that you had so little leisure to attend on this task as you say else if you had had time enough to manage your Contestation against him to your best advantage Puritanulum istū in jocos tricas contererem Weston de triplice hominis officio he might have been handled by you as Weston the bragging Papist threatned the learned Doctor Reynolds which was that if he could come by him he would grinde that little Puritan into jests and trifles But the Doctor is though such a one as before we have represented him to the Reader but one man and to conquer him is nothing with this Goliah unless he bid defiance to the whole Host of Israel and with him may stalk it over all the Parish Churches of this Nation yea and with them over all the Churches of Europe and New-England as trodden down by his strength He professeth his opposition of them in that latitude in the first page of his Examination and makes account he hath so far carried the Cause against the Doctor as by the passages already noted may appear wherein though he disclaim all appearance of Popery both in the Dispute and Examination Ibid. pag. 115 129. he bewrayeth a Papal proud Spirit even the Spirit of Pope Victor who would have Excommunicated all the Churches which did not observe his rule for the time of Celebration of the Feast of Easter as hath been noted under another Title The next notorious quality of Mr. O. is his railing and reproching in his Examination of the Doctors Reply as where he setteth upon him with these uncivil terms Exam. p. 60. Tour doting dregs of desperation and denial of the greatest part of the very Gospel it self by which you are involved in a labyrinth of absurdities errours and confusions And afterward in the same page Sure saith he you see not what makes for you and what against you There is one part of the Gospel that you confess not but reproch contemn vilifie and deride viz. The Death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all men in the world which is commonly called Vniversal Redemption How far that Doctrine is to be denied contemned vilified and to be bewailed rather than derided for the horrid Blasphemies concomitant with it and consequent upon it the Reader may be shortly and sufficiently informed by Mr. Marchemont Nedham Pag. 67 68 69 in his fore-mentioned Book against Mr. John Goodwyn And against the Ministry in general Mr. O. venteth himself in this virulent manner Mr. O. and those of his strain think they spight the Ministers of England much by calling them Priests Pag. 32. and their Ministry a Priesthood as Mr. O. doth here and * elswhere in a way of reproch wherein they bewray both their ignorance and malice for 1. The Etymologie of the word it is either from the Latine word Praeest he presideth or the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one set over another or it is a contraction of the word Priester in Low Dutch which is a contraction of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek signifying an Elder and so it is a Name of honour for the Lord hath said Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head and honour the face of the Elder Lev. 19.32 And that this is at length what the word Priest is in short is evident by the alteration which Archbishop Land made in the old Service-Book of England when it was to be sent into Scotland for every where where the English hath the word Priest the Scotch Service-book hath the word Presbyter nor is the word Priest a word of disparagement in the New Testament since the word Priest and Priesthood is ascribed to Christ above or about ten times in the Epistle to the Hebrews The same is given in an honorable sense unto Christians in 1 Pet. cap. 2. where they are called An holy Priesthood ver 5. a royal Priesthood ver 9. and holiness and honour do well sort together 1 Thess 4.4 Rev. c. 1. v. 5. c. 5. v. 10. they are as by Titles of honour called Kings and Priests c. 20.6 Priests alone in regard of their spiritual Sacrifices as of praise Heb. 13.15 of prayer Psal 141.2 of a broken and contrite heart Psal 51.17 of Alms Heb. 13.16 by presenting their bodies a living sacrifice unto him Rom. 12.1 by mortifying inordinate affections and evil concupiscence Col. 3.5 and by offering themselves as dying Sacrifices for Christs sake Phil. 2.17 when they shall be called unto it Thus we are not ashamed to own the name Priest but take it for a term of honour both in the native sense of the word and use of the Gospel yet so we do not appropriate it to our selves nor can they impose it upon us in any signification which hath affinity with a literal Sacrifice either Jewish or Popish In which respect and because in the New Testament Gospel-Ministers are never called Priests as by a peculiar Title Archbishop Whitgift in his last Book against Mr. Cartwright p. 722. Mr. Hookers Eccles Polit. lib. 5. parag 77. p. 419. speak rather against than for the use of it as so limited to restrained The Priesthood of this Nation saith he are proved to be a company of covetous greedy dogs that never have enough Page 34. And where good Sir is

sutisfaction because he wants the books you direct him to or will not be at cost to buy them or trouble to peruse them and if he did read them would bring a resolution rather to cavil at them then to receive resolution from them When you have leisure to wash a Black-moor you may spare some time to spend upon your self-conceited and self-willed adversary Mr. J. O. for such an one will every judicious man judge him to be who reads with indifferency the Disputation and Examination published by him against you Fifthly you have too much precious work in your hands every day then that you can warrantably lay any part of it aside to contend with such an obstinate adversary as Mr. Onley is and I am verily perswaded and I assure my self many that know your various and uncessant pains for the souls of your people of Coventry are of my mind that thereby you do more good in a week there then you shall do by disputing with or writing against a perverse Anabaptist a whole year together Sixthly There are so many now engaged in the defence of the Churches of Christ for now Mr. O. sets himself against all the Churches of Europe and New England besides Old England that so much work cannot in reason fall to your share as still to manage the defence of them all against him or any such obstreperous talker especially having such a weighty burden of pastoral employment continually upon you Seventhly If you should set all aside and encounter him at the Press as you have done by Disputation in the Church it would be to little purpose or profit both in respect of Mr. O. and of his party For First for him unless you answer him in every particular how impertinent soever you shall still be under his exception and insultation to the great prejudice both of your cause person for he not onely taxeth you for deficient answering already saying to a great part of his answer you have not said one word and that your Reply passeth over just half his Answer without a word of Reply Exam. of Dr. ●… Rep. p. 28. Ibid. p. 115. But such is his insolency that as if he had authority to prescribe your part of the controversie as well as to dispose of his own he layeth this severe Law upon you if you contest with him again exactly to answer to each particular plainly and downrightly by reasons and Scriptures directly to the purpose or else to confess you cannot by saying nothing Neither so nor so For datur tertium a man may silently pais by an especial part of his Book written in defence of a precious truth Mr. O. his Exam of Dr. Br. Reply p. 69. as he phraseth it that is Universal Redemption because it is discovered to be a pernicious error and abundantly confuted by Doctor Kendall in answer to M. John Goodwins Book called Redemption Redeemed and another part as impertinent as that so often inculcated position of Mr. O. Of the first constitution of Churches and another part is answered by Dr. Br. before as that for the Vindication of the Ministry of England no need then of confessing you can say nothing Disp p. 33. because you do not say all things as he appointeth you Mr. Fisher made a more modest resolution concerning his adversary and himself If any one answer saith he and I have satisfaction from him to the contrary he shall hear of my Recantation if I have not he shall see it by my silence Mr. Fisher in his answer to Nobody in 5 words p 465. So may you better signifie your dissatisfaction with Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply by your silence then endeavour his satisfaction by a printed answer unto it and that upon his reason viz because he would not lose any more time from preaching at I see I must saith he if I meddle any more at the Press with this subject Secondly It would be to as little purpose and profit in respect of his party Vestra solum legitis vestra amatis caetera causâ incognitâ condemnatis Cicer. l. 2. de natur deorum p. 216. Medicamenta nesciunt insani sunt adversus antidotum quâ sani esse potuissent Aug. confess l. 9. c. 4. who are so possessed with prejudice against your cause by their teachers odious invectives and exclamations against you your Church and Ministry as Popish and Antichristian that they will not onely not buy but not so much as look upon an Apology for you being sick of the perverse partiality which the Orator reproveth in some Philosophical Hereticks of his time You read onely what is written for your own side saith he and love onely what is your own for other things you condemn them the cause unheard And as Agustine observeth of some of like distempered passions though so much the worse as errors in Divinity are worse then errors in Philosophy They know not what is Physick for them and are mad saith he against the Medicine which shouldoure them of their madness Such are many of the besotted Proselytes of seducing Teachers of the present age In respect of such froward and perverse opposites as both they and they leaders for the most part manifest themselves silence may sometimes be more seasonable then Replications and Rejoynders for Quorum dicta contraria si toties refellere velimus quoties obnixa fronte statuerunt non carere quid dicant dum quomodocunque nostris disputationibus contradicant quàm infinitum aerumnosum infructuosum c. Aug. de Civit. Dei l. 2. c. 1. Tom. 1. p. 63. as Augustine putteth the case If we should set our selves to refell the contrary Tenets of those who have hardned their foreheads so as to resolve they will have somewhat to say so they may any way gainsay our disputations how endless how grievous how unprofitable will our trouble be Eighthly If there were a necessity that Mr. O. should be further answered by you or some body for you you have three Sons the youngest of whom would be able enough to undertake him by an Examination and Conviction of his Examination of error and slander of pride and vanity but neither would I have any of them put to so unprofitable a Task because I hear they are all of them dayly employed in better work Therefore Ninthly If after these Animadversions upon him and his Book it be requisite to take any further course to take down the Tympany of Mr. O. his swelling self-conceit I shall propose it to the serious considerations of our Venerable Society at their meeting at Kenelmworth to invite him to a publick Disputation there once again to be ordered and managed according to the Rules forementioned So you have mine advice as you desired with what I further promised for which if any thing be worthy of your acceptance and theirs who are our Brethren in interest and affection to the cause wherein you first and