the_o church_n on_o earth_n be_v likewise_o cut_v off_o from_o it_o before_o god_n in_o heaven_n but_o you_o know_v it_o must_v be_v clavae_n non_fw-la errante_fw-la when_o the_o cause_n of_o abscission_n be_v true_a and_o sufficient_a ad._n §_o 3._o if_o you_o say_v so_o you_o say_v no_o more_o than_o the_o father_n but_o what_o evasion_n and_o tergiversation_n be_v these_o why_o do_v you_o put_v we_o off_o with_o if_n and_o and_n i_o beseech_v you_o tell_v i_o or_o at_o least_o he_o that_o desire_v to_o reap_v some_o benefit_n by_o our_o conference_n direct_o and_o categorical_o do_v you_o say_v so_o or_o do_v you_o say_v it_o be_v not_o so_o be_v the_o excommunicate_v church_n of_o asia_n still_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n i_o mean_v in_o god_n account_n or_o be_v they_o not_o but_o all_o damn_a for_o that_o horrible_a heresy_n of_o celebrate_v the_o feast_n of_o easter_n upon_o a_o diverse_a day_n from_o the_o western_a church_n if_o you_o mean_v honest_o and_o fair_o answer_v direct_o to_o this_o question_n and_o then_o you_o shall_v see_v what_o will_v come_v of_o it_o assure_v yourself_o you_o have_v a_o wolf_n by_o the_o ear_n if_o you_o say_v they_o be_v you_o overthrow_v your_o own_o conclusion_n and_o say_v that_o church_n divide_v in_o communion_n may_v both_o be_v member_n of_o the_o catholic_n if_o they_o be_v not_o then_o shall_v we_o have_v saint_n and_o martyr_n in_o heaven_n which_o be_v no_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_a roman_a church_n as_o for_o irenaeus_n his_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o russinus_n his_o abscindere_fw-la ab_fw-la unite_v corporis_fw-la they_o imply_v no_o more_o but_o this_o at_o the_o most_o that_o victor_n quantum_fw-la in_fw-la â—e_n â—ut_fw-la do_v cut_v they_o off_o from_o the_o external_n communion_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n suppose_v that_o for_o their_o obstinacy_n in_o their_o tradition_n they_o have_v cut_v themselves_o off_o from_o the_o internal_a communion_n of_o it_o but_o that_o this_o sentence_n of_o victor_n be_v ratify_v in_o heaven_n and_o that_o they_o be_v indeed_o cut_v off_o from_o the_o mystical_a body_n of_o christ_n so_o far_o be_v irenaeus_n from_o think_v that_o he_o and_o in_o a_o manner_n all_o the_o other_o bishop_n reprehend_v victor_n for_o pronounce_v this_o sentence_n on_o they_o upon_o a_o cause_n so_o insufficient_a which_o how_o they_o can_v say_v or_o possible_o think_v of_o a_o sentence_n ratify_v by_o god_n in_o heaven_n and_o not_o reprehend_v god_n himself_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o inform_v i_o and_o if_o they_o do_v not_o intend_v to_o reprehend_v the_o sentence_n of_o god_n himself_o together_o with_o victor_n than_o i_o believe_v it_o will_v follow_v unavoidable_o that_o they_o do_v not_o conceive_v nor_o believe_v victor_n sentence_n to_o be_v ratify_v by_o god_n and_o consequent_o do_v not_o believe_v that_o these_o excommunicate_v church_n be_v not_o in_o god_n account_n true_a member_n of_o the_o body_n of_o christ._n ad._n §_o 4._o and_o here_o again_o we_o have_v another_o subterfuge_n by_o a_o verbal_a distinction_n between_o excommunication_n and_o voluntary_a separation_n as_o if_o the_o separation_n which_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n make_v in_o victor_n time_n from_o the_o asian_a church_n be_v not_o a_o voluntary_a separation_n or_o as_o if_o the_o church_n of_o asia_n do_v not_o voluntary_o do_v that_o which_o be_v the_o cause_n of_o their_o separation_n or_o as_o if_o though_o they_o sepated_a not_o themselves_o indeed_o conceive_v the_o cause_n to_o be_v insufficient_a they_o do_v not_o yet_o remain_v voluntary_o separate_v rather_o than_o conform_v themselves_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n or_o last_o as_o if_o the_o grecian_n of_o old_a or_o the_o protestant_n of_o late_a may_v not_o pretend_v as_o just_o as_o the_o asian_a church_n that_o their_o separation_n too_o be_v not_o voluntary_o but_o of_o necessity_n for_o that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n require_v of_o they_o under_o pain_n of_o excommunication_n such_o condition_n of_o her_o communion_n as_o be_v neither_o necessary_a nor_o lawful_a to_o be_v perform_v ad_fw-la §_o 5._o and_o here_o again_o the_o matter_n be_v straighten_v by_o another_o limitation_n both_o side_n say_v you_o must_v claim_v to_o be_v the_o church_n but_o what_o then_o if_o one_o of_o they_o only_o claim_v though_o vain_o to_o be_v the_o church_n and_o the_o other_o content_a itself_o with_o be_v a_o part_n of_o it_o these_o than_o it_o seem_v for_o any_o thing_n you_o have_v say_v to_o the_o contrary_a may_v be_v both_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n and_o certain_o this_o be_v the_o case_n now_o between_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o for_o aught_o i_o know_v be_v between_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o church_n of_o greece_n for_o i_o believe_v it_o will_v hardly_o be_v prove_v that_o the_o excommunication_n between_o they_o be_v mutual_a nor_o that_o the_o church_n of_o greece_n esteem_v itself_o the_o whole_a church_n and_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n no_o church_n but_o itself_o a_o sound_a member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o that_o a_o corrupt_a one_o again_o whereas_o you_o say_v the_o father_n speak_v of_o a_o voluntary_a separation_n certain_o they_o speak_v of_o any_o separation_n by_o heretic_n and_o such_o be_v in_o victor_n judgement_n the_o church_n of_o asia_n for_o hold_v a_o opinion_n contrary_a to_o the_o faith_n as_o he_o esteem_v or_o if_o he_o do_v not_o why_o do_v he_o cut_v they_o from_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n but_o the_o true_a difference_n be_v the_o father_n speak_v of_o those_o which_o by_o your_o church_n be_v esteem_v heretic_n and_o be_v so_o whereas_o the_o asian_a church_n be_v by_o victor_n esteem_v heretic_n but_o be_v not_o so_o ad_fw-la §_o 6._o but_o their_o authority_n produce_v show_v no_o more_o than_o what_o i_o have_v show_v that_o the_o church_n be_v but_o one_o in_o 4exclusion_n of_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n and_o not_o that_o two_o particular_a church_n divide_v by_o mistake_n upon_o some_o overvalue_v difference_n may_v not_o be_v both_o part_n of_o the_o catholic_n ad_fw-la §_o 7._o but_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o tell_v i_o whether_o you_o will_v do_v this_o if_o the_o doctrine_n produce_v and_o confirm_v by_o such_o a_o consent_n of_o father_n happen_v to_o be_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n either_o not_o catholic_n or_o absolute_o heretical_a if_o you_o will_v undertake_v this_o you_o shall_v hear_v far_o form_v i_o but_o if_o when_o their_o place_n be_v produce_v you_o will_v pretend_v as_o some_o of_o your_o side_n do_v that_o sure_o they_o be_v corrupt_v have_v neither_o reason_n nor_o show_v of_o reason_n for_o it_o unless_o this_o may_v pass_v for_o one_o as_o perhaps_o it_o may_v where_o reason_n be_v scarce_o that_o they_o be_v against_o your_o doctrine_n or_o if_o you_o will_v say_v they_o be_v to_o be_v interpret_v according_a to_o the_o pleasure_n of_o your_o church_n whether_o their_o word_n will_v bear_v it_o or_o no_o then_o i_o shall_v but_o lose_v my_o labour_n for_o this_o be_v not_o to_o try_v your_o church_n by_o the_o father_n but_o the_o father_n by_o your_o church_n the_o doctrine_n which_o i_o undertake_v to_o justify_v by_o a_o great_a consent_n of_o father_n than_o here_o you_o produce_v for_o instance_n shall_v be_v these_o 1._o that_o god_n election_n suppose_v prescience_n of_o man_n faith_n and_o perseverance_n 2._o that_o god_n do_v not_o predetermine_v man_n to_o all_o their_o action_n 3._o that_o the_o pope_n have_v no_o power_n in_o temporalty_n over_o king_n either_o direct_o or_o indirect_o 4._o that_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n may_v err_v in_o his_o public_a determination_n of_o matter_n of_o faith_n 5._o that_o the_o b._n virgin_n be_v guilty_a of_o original_a sin_n 6._o that_o the_o b._n virgin_n be_v guilty_a of_o actual_a sin_n 7._o that_o the_o communion_n be_v to_o be_v administer_v to_o the_o laity_n in_o both_o kind_n 8._o that_o the_o read_n of_o the_o scripture_n be_v to_o be_v deny_v to_o no_o man_n 9_o that_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o millenaries_n be_v true_a 10._o that_o the_o eucharist_n be_v to_o be_v administer_v to_o infant_n 11._o that_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n remain_v in_o the_o eucharist_n of_o her_o consecration_n 12._o that_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o saint_n depart_v enjoy_v not_o the_o vision_n of_o god_n before_o the_o last_o day_n 13._o that_o at_o the_o day_n of_o judgement_n all_o the_o saint_n shall_v pass_v through_o a_o purge_a fire_n all_o these_o proposition_n be_v hold_v by_o your_o church_n either_o heretical_a or_o at_o least_o not_o catholical_a and_o yet_o â—n_a this_o promise_n of_o you_o you_o have_v undertake_v to_o believe_v they_o as_o firm_o
then_o that_o it_o be_v in_o one_o only_a place_n id_fw-la ibid._n 7._o although_o there_o be_v many_o heresy_n of_o christian_n and_o that_o all_o will_v be_v call_v catholic_n yet_o there_o be_v always_o one_o church_n etc._n etc._n s._n august_n de_fw-fr util_fw-la credend_a c._n 7._o 8._o the_o question_n between_o we_o be_v where_o the_o church_n be_v whether_o with_o we_o or_o with_o they_o for_o she_o be_v but_o one_o id._n de_fw-fr unitat_fw-la c._n 2._o 9_o the_o proof_n of_o the_o catholic_n prevail_v whereby_o they_o evict_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v with_o they_o and_o by_o consequence_n not_o to_o be_v with_o the_o donatist_n for_o it_o be_v manifest_a that_o she_o be_v one_o alone_a id._n collat._n carthag_n lib._n â—_o 10._o in_o illud_fw-la cantic_a 6._o 7._o there_o be_v 60_o queen_n and_o 80_o concubine_n and_o damsel_n without_o number_n but_o my_o dove_n be_v one_o etc._n etc._n he_o say_v not_o my_o queen_n be_v 60_o and_o my_o concubine_n etc._n etc._n but_o he_o say_v my_o dove_n be_v but_o one_o because_o all_o the_o sect_n of_o philospher_n and_o heresy_n of_o christian_n be_v none_o of_o he_o he_o be_v but_o one_o to_o wit_n the_o catholic_a church_n etc._n etc._n s._n epâ—phan_n in_o sine_fw-la panar_n 11._o a_o man_n may_v not_o call_v the_o conventicle_n of_o heretic_n i_o mean_v marcionites_n manichees_n and_o the_o rest_n churhce_n therefore_o the_o tradition_n appoint_v you_o to_o say_v i_o believe_v one_o holy_a catholic_n church_n etc._n etc._n s._n cyrill_n catech._n 18._o and_o these_o testimony_n i_o think_v be_v sufficient_a to_o show_v the_o judgement_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n that_o this_o title_n of_o the_o church_n one_o be_v direct_o and_o proper_o exclusive_a to_o all_o company_n beside_o one_o to_o wit_n that_o where_o there_o be_v diverse_a profession_n of_o faith_n or_o diverse_a communion_n there_o be_v but_o one_o of_o these_o which_o can_v be_v the_o catholic_n church_n upon_o this_o ground_n i_o desire_v some_o company_n of_o christians_n to_o be_v name_v profess_v a_o diverse_a faith_n and_o hold_v a_o diverse_a communion_n from_o the_o roman_a which_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n at_o the_o time_n of_o luther_n rise_n and_o if_o no_o other_o in_o this_o sense_n can_v be_v name_v than_o be_v she_o the_o catholic_n church_n at_o that_o time_n and_o therefore_o her_o judgement_n to_o be_v rest_v in_o and_o her_o communion_n to_o be_v embrace_v upon_o peril_n of_o schism_n and_o heresy_n mr._n chillingworths_n answer_n upon_o the_o same_o ground_n if_o you_o please_v you_o may_v desire_v a_o protestant_n to_o name_v some_o company_n of_o christian_n profess_v a_o diverse_a faith_n and_o hold_v a_o diverse_a communion_n from_o the_o greek_a church_n which_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n at_o the_o time_n of_o luther_n rise_v and_o see_v he_o can_v name_v no_o other_o in_o this_o sense_n conclude_v that_o the_o greek_a church_n be_v the_o catholic_n church_n at_o that_o time_n upon_o the_o very_a same_o ground_n you_o may_v have_v conclude_v for_o the_o church_n of_o the_o abyssine_n or_o armenian_n or_o any_o other_o society_n of_o christian_n extant_a before_o luther_n time_n and_o see_v this_o be_v so_o thus_o i_o argue_v against_o your_o ground_n 1._o that_o ground_n which_o conclude_v indifferent_o for_o both_o part_n of_o a_o contradiction_n must_v needs_o be_v false_a and_o deceitful_a and_o conclude_v for_o neither_o part_n but_o this_o ground_n conclude_v indifferent_o both_o part_n of_o a_o contradiction_n viz._n that_o the_o greek_a church_n be_v the_o catholic_n church_n and_o not_o the_o roman_a as_o well_o as_o that_o the_o roman_a be_v the_o catholic_n church_n and_o not_o the_o greek_a therefore_o the_o ground_n be_v false_a and_o deceitful_a seem_v it_o never_o so_o plausible_a 2._o i_o answer_v second_o that_o you_o shall_v have_v take_v notice_n of_o my_o answer_n which_o i_o then_o give_v you_o which_o be_v that_o your_o major_n as_o you_o then_o frame_v your_o argument_n but_o as_o now_o your_o minor_a be_v not_o always_o true_a if_o by_o one_o you_o understand_v one_o in_o external_a communion_n see_v nothing_o hinder_v in_o my_o judgement_n but_o that_o one_o church_n excommunicate_v by_o another_o upon_o a_o insufficient_a cause_n may_v yet_o remain_v a_o true_a member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o upon_o the_o over-value_a this_o cause_n do_v excommunicate_v the_o other_o though_o in_o fault_n may_v yet_o remain_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n which_o be_v evident_a from_o the_o difference_n about_o easter-day_n between_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o church_n of_o asia_n for_o which_o vain_a matter_n victor_n bishop_n of_o rome_n excommunicate_v the_o church_n of_o asia_n and_o yet_o i_o believe_v you_o will_v not_o say_v that_o either_o the_o church_n excommunicate_v or_o the_o church_n excommunicate_v cease_v to_o be_v a_o true_a member_n of_o the_o church_n catholic_n the_o case_n be_v the_o same_o between_o the_o greek_a and_o the_o roman_a church_n for_o though_o the_o difference_n between_o they_o be_v great_a yet_o it_o be_v not_o so_o great_a as_o to_o be_v a_o sufficient_a ground_n of_o excommunication_n and_o therefore_o the_o excommunication_n be_v causeless_a and_o consequent_o brutum_fw-la fulmen_fw-la and_o not_o ratify_v or_o confirm_v by_o god_n in_o heaven_n and_o therefore_o the_o church_n of_o greece_n at_o luther_n rise_a might_n be_v and_o be_v a_o true_a member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n as_o concern_v the_o place_n of_o father_n which_o you_o allege_v i_o demand_v 1._o if_o i_o can_v produce_v you_o a_o equal_a or_o great_a number_n of_o father_n or_o more_o ancient_a than_o these_o not_o contradict_v by_o any_o that_o live_v with_o they_o or_o before_o they_o for_o some_o doctrine_n condemn_v by_o the_o roman_a church_n whether_o you_o will_v subscribe_v it_o if_o not_o with_o what_o face_n or_o conscience_n can_v you_o make_v use_n of_o and_o build_v your_o whole_a faith_n upon_o the_o authority_n of_o father_n in_o some_o thing_n and_o reject_v the_o same_o authority_n in_o other_o 2._o second_o because_o you_o urge_v s._n cyprian_n authority_n i_o desire_v you_o to_o tell_v i_o whether_o this_o argument_n in_o his_o time_n will_v have_v conclude_v a_o necessity_n of_o rest_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n or_o no_o if_o not_o how_o shall_v it_o come_v to_o pass_v that_o it_o shall_v serve_v now_o and_o not_o then_o fit_v this_o time_n and_o not_o that_o as_o if_o it_o be_v like_o a_o almanac_n that_o will_v not_o serve_v for_o all_o meridian_n if_o it_o will_v why_o be_v it_o not_o urge_v by_o other_o upon_o s._n cyprian_n or_o represent_v by_o s._n cyprian_n to_o himself_o for_o his_o direction_n when_o he_o differ_v from_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o all_o other_o that_o herein_o conform_v unto_o she_o touch_v the_o point_n of_o rebaptising_a heretic_n which_o the_o roman_a church_n hold_v unlawful_a and_o damnable_a s._n cyprian_n not_o only_o lawful_a but_o necessary_a so_o well_o do_v he_o rest_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o that_o church_n quid_fw-la verba_fw-la audiam_fw-la cum_fw-la facta_fw-la videam_fw-la say_v he_o in_o the_o comedy_n and_o cardinal_n perron_n tell_v you_o in_o his_o epistle_n to_o casaubon_n that_o nothing_o be_v more_o unreasonable_a than_o to_o draw_v consequence_n from_o the_o word_n of_o father_n against_o their_o lively_a and_o actual_a practice_n the_o same_o may_v be_v say_v in_o refutation_n of_o the_o place_n out_o of_o s._n austin_n who_o be_v so_o far_o from_o conclude_v from_o they_o or_o any_o other_o a_o necessity_n of_o rest_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n that_o he_o himself_o as_o your_o author_n testify_v live_v and_o die_v in_o opposition_n of_o it_o even_o in_o that_o main_a fundamental_a point_n upon_o which_o mr._n lewgar_n have_v build_v the_o necessity_n of_o his_o departure_n from_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o embrace_v the_o communion_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n that_o be_v the_o supreme_a authority_n of_o that_o church_n over_o other_o church_n and_o the_o power_n of_o receive_v appeal_n from_o they_o mr._n lewgar_o i_o know_v can_v be_v ignorant_a of_o these_o thing_n and_o therefore_o i_o wonder_v with_o what_o conscience_n he_o can_v produce_v their_o word_n against_o we_o who_o action_n be_v for_o we_o if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o s._n cyprian_a and_o s._n austin_n be_v schismatic_n for_o do_v so_o it_o seem_v then_o schismatic_n may_v not_o only_o be_v member_n of_o the_o church_n against_o mr._n lewgar_n main_a conclusion_n but_o canonize_v saint_n of_o it_o or_o else_o s._n austin_n and_o s._n cyprian_a shall_v be_v raze_v out_o of_o the_o roman_a calendar_n if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o the_o point_n of_o rebaptisation_a be_v not_o
must_v be_v papists_n if_o we_o forsake_v the_o church_n of_o england_n we_o must_v go_v present_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n whereas_o if_o your_o argument_n do_v conclude_v as_o they_o do_v not_o that_o before_o lâ—thers_n time_n there_o be_v some_o church_n of_o one_o denomination_n which_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n i_o shall_v much_o rather_o think_v it_o be_v the_o church_n of_o greeâ—e_n â—han_fw-mi the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o i_o believe_v other_o also_o will_v think_v so_o as_o well_o as_o i_o but_o for_o that_o reason_n which_o one_o give_v why_o more_o man_n hold_v the_o pope_n above_o a_o council_n than_o a_o council_n above_o a_o pope_n that_o be_v because_o council_n give_v no_o maintenance_n or_o preferment_n and_o the_o pope_n do_v think_v not_o yet_o i_o pray_v that_o i_o say_v this_o as_o if_o i_o conceive_v this_o to_o be_v your_o reason_n for_o prefer_v the_o roman_a church_n before_o the_o greek_a for_o i_o protest_v i_o do_v not_o but_o rather_o that_o conceive_v very_o you_o be_v to_o leave_v the_o church_n of_o england_n to_o avoid_v trouble_v you_o take_v the_o next_o boat_n and_o go_v to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n because_o that_o bespeak_v you_o first_o you_o impute_v to_o i_o as_o i_o hear_v that_o the_o way_n i_o take_v be_v destructive_a only_o and_o that_o i_o build_v nothing_o which_o first_o be_v not_o a_o fault_n for_o christian_a religion_n be_v not_o now_o to_o be_v build_v but_o only_o i_o desire_v to_o have_v the_o rubbish_n and_o impertinent_a lumber_n take_v off_o which_o you_o have_v lay_v upon_o it_o which_o hide_v the_o glorious_a simplicity_n of_o it_o from_o they_o which_o otherwise_o will_v embrace_v it_o remember_v i_o pray_v averro_n his_o say_n quandoquidem_fw-la christiant_fw-la adorant_fw-la quod_fw-la comedunt_fw-la sit_fw-la anima_fw-la mea_fw-la cum_fw-la philosophis_fw-la and_o consider_v the_o swarm_n of_o atheist_n in_o italy_n and_o then_o tell_v i_o whether_o your_o unreasonable_a and_o contradictious_a doctrine_n your_o forge_a miracle_n and_o counterfeit_a legend_n have_v not_o in_o all_o probability_n produce_v this_o effect_n second_o if_o it_o be_v a_o fault_n it_o be_v certain_o your_o own_o for_o your_o discourse_n intend_v for_o the_o proof_n of_o a_o positive_a conclusion_n that_o we_o must_v be_v papist_n prove_v in_o deed_n and_o in_o truth_n nothing_o but_o even_o in_o show_n and_o appearance_n no_o more_o but_o this_o negative_a that_o we_o must_v not_o be_v protestant_a but_o what_o we_o must_v be_v if_o we_o must_v not_o be_v protestant_n god_n know_v you_o in_o this_o discourse_n i_o be_o sure_a do_v not_o show_v it_o mr._n lewgar_n reply_v §_o 1._o the_o minor_a of_o mr._n chillingworths_n argument_n against_o my_o gâ—oâ—nd_n be_v very_a weâ—k_n be_v 〈◊〉_d upon_o 〈◊〉_d false_a supposition_n that_o a_o protestant_n can_v name_v no_o other_o church_n profess_v a_o diverse_a faith_n etc._n etc._n from_o the_o greek_a châ—â—ch_n which_o waâ—_n the_o catholic_n church_n for_o if_o he_o can_v â—ot_n indeed_o name_v any_o other_o the_o title_n will_v remain_v to_o the_o greek_a church_n but_o he_o have_v the_o roman_a to_o name_n and_o so_o my_o ground_n can_v conclude_v either_o so_o the_o 〈…〉_z or_o any_o other_o beside_o the_o roman_a but_o for_o that_o it_o do_v except_o he_o can_v name_v some_o other_o §_o 2._o his_o second_o answer_n be_v weak_a likewise_o for_o my_o minor_n be_v always_o true_a at_o least_o they_o think_v it_o to_o be_v so_o who_o authority_n i_o produce_v in_o confirmation_n of_o it_o as_o will_v appear_v to_o any_o one_o that_o consider_v they_o well_o how_o their_o force_n lie_v in_o thesi_fw-la not_o in_o hypothesi_fw-la not_o that_o the_o church_n be_v not_o then_o divide_v into_o more_o society_n than_o one_o but_o that_o â—he_n can_v never_o be_v §_o 3._o as_o for_o his_o instance_n to_o the_o contrary_a wherein_o he_o believe_v i_o will_v not_o say_v the_o church_n excommunicate_v by_o victor_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o true_a member_n of_o the_o catholic_n if_o i_o say_v so_o i_o say_v no_o more_o than_o the_o ancient_a father_n say_v before_o i_o iraeneus_n when_o he_o desire_v victor_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d not_o to_o cut_v off_o so_o many_o and_o great_a church_n and_o ruffinâ—_n reprehendit_fw-la cam_fw-la quod_fw-la non_fw-la benè_fw-la fecisset_fw-la abscindere_fw-la ab_fw-la unitate_fw-la corporis_fw-la etc._n etc._n §_o 4._o but_o howsoever_o the_o case_n of_o excommunication_n may_v be_v the_o division_n of_o external_a communion_n which_o i_o intend_v and_o the_o father_n speak_v of_o in_o the_o allege_a authority_n be_v that_o which_o be_v make_v by_o voluntary_a separation_n §_o 5._o whereby_o the_o church_n before_o one_o society_n be_v divide_v into_o several_a distinct_a society_n both_o claim_v to_o be_v the_o church_n of_o which_o society_n so_o divide_v but_o one_o can_v be_v the_o catholic_n and_o this_o be_v prove_v by_o the_o authority_n allege_v which_o authority_n must_v not_o be_v answer_v by_o disprove_v they_o as_o he_o do_v for_o that_o be_v to_o change_v his_o adversary_n and_o confute_v the_o father_n say_n instead_o of_o i_o but_o by_o show_v their_o true_a sense_n or_o judgement_n to_o be_v otherwise_o than_o i_o allege_v it_o §_o 6._o to_o his_o demand_n upon_o the_o place_n allege_v i_o answer_v that_o i_o do_v not_o build_v my_o whole_a faith_n of_o this_o conclusion_n upon_o the_o authority_n of_o those_o father_n for_o i_o produce_v they_o not_o for_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o thing_n but_o of_o the_o exposition_n the_o thing_n itself_o be_v a_o article_n of_o the_o creed_n unam_fw-la catholicam_fw-la ground_v in_o express_a scripture_n columba_n mea_fw-la unica_fw-la but_o because_o there_o be_v difference_n in_o understand_v this_o prophecy_n i_o produce_v these_o authority_n to_o show_v the_o judgement_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n how_o they_o understand_v it_o and_o the_o proper_a answer_n to_o this_o be_v either_o to_o show_v that_o these_o word_n be_v not_o there_o or_o at_o least_o not_o this_o meaning_n and_o so_o to_o show_v their_o meaning_n out_o of_o other_o place_n more_o pregnant_a §_o 7._o and_o i_o promise_v that_o whensoever_o a_o equal_a consent_n of_o father_n can_v be_v show_v for_o any_o thing_n as_o i_o can_v show_v for_o this_o i_o will_v believe_v it_o as_o firm_o as_o i_o do_v this_o §_o 8._o but_o this_o be_v not_o the_o answerers_n part_n to_o propound_v doubt_n and_o difficulty_n but_o to_o satisfy_v the_o proof_n object_v §_o 9_o and_o if_o this_o course_n be_v any_o more_o take_v i_o will_v save_v myself_o all_o far_a labour_n in_o a_o business_n so_o likely_a to_o be_v endless_a §_o 10._o his_o second_o answer_n to_o the_o place_n be_v whole_o impertinent_a for_o therein_o will_v he_o disprove_v they_o from_o watch_v a_o necessity_n of_o rest_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n whereas_o i_o produce_v they_o only_o to_o show_v that_o among_o several_a society_n of_o christian_n only_o one_o can_v be_v the_o catholic_n and_o against_o this_o his_o second_o answer_n say_v nothing_o §_o 11._o in_o his_o three_o answer_n he_o make_v some_o show_n of_o reply_n to_o the_o authority_n themselves_o but_o he_o commit_v a_o double_a error_n one_o that_o he_o impose_v upon_o i_o a_o wrong_a conclusion_n to_o be_v prove_v as_o will_v appear_v by_o compare_v my_o conclusion_n in_o my_o paper_n with_o the_o conclusion_n he_o will_v appoint_v i_o §_o 12._o another_o that_o he_o impose_v upon_o the_o authority_n a_o wrong_a interpretation_n no_o way_n ground_v in_o the_o word_n themselves_o nor_o in_o the_o place_n whence_o they_o be_v take_v nor_o in_o any_o other_o place_n of_o the_o same_o father_n but_o mere_o forge_v out_o of_o his_o own_o brain_n for_o first_o the_o place_n do_v not_o only_o say_v that_o the_o society_n of_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n be_v no_o part_n of_o the_o church_n but_o that_o the_o church_n can_v be_v divide_v into_o more_o society_n than_o one_o and_o they_o account_v society_n divide_v which_o be_v either_o of_o a_o diverse_a faith_n or_o a_o diverse_a communion_n neither_o do_v they_o define_v heretic_n or_o schismatic_n in_o that_o manner_n as_o he_o do_v §_o 13._o for_o a_o heretic_n in_o their_o language_n be_v he_o that_o oppose_v partinacious_o the_o common_a faith_n of_o the_o church_n and_o a_o schismatic_a he_o that_o separate_v from_o the_o catholic_n communion_n never_o make_v any_o mention_n at_o all_o of_o the_o cause_n §_o 14._o and_o if_o his_o definition_n of_o a_o schismatic_a may_v stand_v then_o certain_o there_o be_v no_o schismatic_a ever_o in_o the_o world_n nor_o none_o be_v at_o this_o day_n for_o none_o do_v none_o do_v separate_v without_o some_o pretence_n of_o error_n or_o unlawfulness_n in_o the_o condition_n of_o the_o church_n
communion_n §_o 15._o and_o so_o i_o expect_v both_o a_o full_a and_o direct_a answer_n to_o my_o argument_n without_o excursion_n or_o diversion_n into_o any_o other_o matter_n till_o the_o judgement_n of_o antiquity_n be_v clear_v in_o this_o point_n mr._n chillingworths_n answer_n ad_fw-la §_o 1._o the_o minor_a of_o my_o argument_n you_o say_v be_v very_o weak_a be_v ground_v upon_o a_o false_a supposition_n that_o a_o protestant_n can_v name_v no_o other_o church_n profess_v a_o diverse_a faith_n from_o the_o greek_a which_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n and_o your_o reason_n be_v because_o he_o â—ight_a name_n the_o roman_a but_o in_o earnest_n mr._n lewgar_o do_v you_o think_v that_o a_o protestant_n remain_v a_o protestant_n can_v esteem_v the_o roman_a church_n to_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n or_o do_v you_o think_v to_o put_v trick_n upon_o we_o with_o take_v your_o proposition_n one_o while_n in_o sâ—nsu_fw-la composito_fw-la another_o while_n in_o sensu_fw-la drviso_fw-la for_o if_o your_o meaning_n be_v that_o a_o prâ—testant_n not_o remain_v but_o cease_v to_o be_v a_o protestant_n may_v name_v the_o roman_a for_o the_o catholic_n so_o i_o say_v also_o to_o your_o discourse_n that_o a_o protestant_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o protestant_n may_v name_v a_o greek_a to_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n and_o if_o there_o be_v any_o necessity_n to_o find_v out_o one_o church_n of_o one_o denomination_n as_o the_o greek_a the_o roman_a the_o abyssine_n which_o one_o must_v be_v the_o catholic_n i_o see_v no_o reason_n but_o he_o may_v pitch_v upon_o the_o greek_a church_n as_o well_o as_o the_o roman_a i_o be_o sure_a your_o discourse_n prove_v nothing_o to_o the_o contrary_n in_o short_a thus_o i_o say_v if_o a_o grecian_a shall_v go_v about_o to_o prove_v to_o a_o protestant_n that_o hâ—s_v church_n be_v the_o catholic_n by_o say_v as_o you_o do_v for_o the_o roman_a some_o one_o be_v so_o before_o luther_n and_o you_o can_v name_v no_o other_o therefore_o we_o be_v so_o whatsoever_o may_v be_v answer_v to_o he_o may_v be_v answer_v to_o you_o foâ—_n as_o you_o say_v a_o protestant_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o proteâ—tant_n may_v name_v to_o he_o the_o roman_a so_o i_o say_v a_o protestant_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o protestant_n may_v name_v to_o you_o the_o grecian_a if_o you_o say_v a_o protestant_n remain_v a_o protestant_n can_v name_v no_o other_o but_o the_o roman_a for_o the_o catholic_n i_o may_v very_o ridiculous_o i_o confess_v but_o yet_o as_o true_o say_v he_o can_v name_v no_o other_o but_o the_o grecian_a if_o you_o say_v he_o can_v name_v the_o greek_a church_n neither_o remain_v a_o protestant_n i_o say_v likewise_o neither_o remain_v a_o protestant_n can_v he_o name_v the_o roman_a for_o the_o catholic_n so_o the_o argument_n be_v equal_a in_o all_o respect_n on_o both_o side_n and_o therefore_o either_o conclude_v for_o both_o part_n which_o be_v impossible_a for_o then_o contradiction_n shall_v be_v both_o true_a or_o else_o which_o be_v certain_a it_o conclude_v for_o neither_o and_o therefore_o i_o say_v your_o ground_n you_o build_v on_o that_o before_o luther_n some_o church_n of_o one_o denomination_n be_v the_o catholic_n if_o it_o be_v true_a as_o it_o be_v most_o false_a will_v not_o prove_v your_o intent_n it_o will_v destroy_v perhaps_o our_o church_n but_o it_o will_v not_o build_v you_o it_o will_v prove_v peradventure_o that_o we_o must_v not_o be_v protestant_n but_o it_o will_v be_v far_o from_o prove_v that_o we_o must_v be_v papist_n for_o after_o we_o have_v lâ—ft_v be_v protestant_n i_o tell_v you_o again_o that_o â—ou_fw-mi may_v not_o mistake_v there_o be_v yet_o no_o necessity_n of_o be_v 〈◊〉_d no_o moâ—â—_n than_o if_o i_o go_v out_o of_o england_n there_o be_v a_o necessity_n of_o go_v to_o rome_n and_o thus_o much_o to_o show_v the_o 〈◊〉_d of_o your_o ground_n if_o it_o be_v true_a now_o in_o the_o 〈◊〉_d place_n i_o say_v it_o be_v false_a neither_o have_v you_o prove_v any_o thing_n 〈◊〉_d contrary_a 〈…〉_z you_o say_v the_o authority_n you_o have_v produce_v show_v to_o any_o that_o consider_v they_o well_o that_o the_o church_n can_v never_o be_v divide_v into_o more_o society_n than_o one_o and_o you_o mean_v i_o hope_v one_o in_o external_a communion_n or_o else_o you_o daily_a in_o ambiguity_n and_o then_o i_o say_v i_o have_v well_o consider_v the_o allege_a authority_n and_o they_o appear_v to_o i_o to_o say_v no_o such_o thing_n but_o only_o that_o the_o society_n of_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n be_v no_o true_a member_n of_o the_o church_n whereas_o i_o put_v the_o case_n of_o two_o such_o society_n which_o be_v divide_v in_o external_a communion_n by_o reason_n of_o some_o overvalue_v difference_n between_o they_o and_o yet_o be_v neither_o of_o they_o heretical_a or_o schismatical_a to_o this_o i_o know_v you_o can_v not_o answer_v but_o only_o by_o say_v that_o this_o supposition_n be_v impossible_a viz._n that_o of_o two_o society_n divide_v in_o external_a communion_n neither_o shall_v be_v heretical_a nor_o schismatical_a and_o therefore_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o prove_v by_o one_o convince_a argument_n that_o this_o be_v impossible_a this_o you_o have_v not_o do_v nor_o i_o believe_v can_v do_v and_o therefore_o all_o your_o place_n fall_v short_a of_o your_o intend_a conclusion_n and_o if_o you_o will_v put_v they_o into_o syllogistical_a form_n you_o shall_v present_o see_v you_o conclude_v from_o they_o sophistical_o in_o that_o fallacy_n which_o be_v call_v a_o dicto_fw-la secundura_fw-it quid_fw-la ad_fw-la dictum_fw-la simpliciter_fw-la thus_o no_o two_o diviced_a society_n whereof_o one_o be_v heretical_a or_o schisinatical_a can_v be_v both_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n therefore_o simple_o no_o two_o divide_a society_n can_v be_v so_o the_o antecedent_n i_o grant_v which_o be_v all_o that_o your_o place_n say_v as_o you_o shall_v see_v anon_o but_o the_o consequence_n be_v sophistical_a and_o therefore_o that_o i_o deny_v it_o be_v no_o better_a nor_o worse_o than_o if_o you_o shall_v argue_v thus_o no_o true_a divide_a society_n whereof_o one_o be_v outlawed_n and_o in_o rebellion_n be_v both_o member_n of_o the_o same_o commonwealth_n therefore_o simple_o no_o two_o divide_a society_n but_o against_o this_o you_o pretend_v that_o the_o a_o ledged_a place_n say_v not_o only_o that_o the_o society_n of_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n be_v no_o part_n of_o the_o church_n but_o that_o the_o church_n can_v be_v divide_v into_o more_o society_n than_o one_o and_o they_o account_v society_n divide_v which_o be_v either_o of_o a_o diverse_a faith_n or_o of_o a_o diverse_a communion_n this_o be_v that_o which_o i_o will_v have_v prove_v but_o as_o yet_o i_o can_v see_v it_o do_v there_o be_v eleven_o quotation_n in_o all_o seven_o of_o they_o speak_v express_o and_o formal_o of_o division_n make_v by_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n viz._n 1._o 3_o 4._o 7._o 9_o 10_o 11._o three_o other_o of_o they_o viz._n 5_o 6._o 8._o though_o they_o use_v not_o the_o word_n yet_o mr._n lewgar_n know_v they_o speak_v of_o the_o donatist_n which_o be_v schismatic_n and_o that_o by_o the_o relative_a particle_n you_o and_o they_o be_v mean_v the_o donatist_n and_o last_o the_o second_o mr._n lewgar_o know_v say_v nothing_o but_o this_o that_o a_o heretic_n can_v be_v account_v of_o that_o one_o flock_n which_o be_v the_o church_n but_o to_o make_v the_o most_o of_o they_o that_o can_v be_v the_o first_o say_v the_o unity_n of_o the_o church_n can_v be_v separate_v at_o all_o nor_o divide_v this_o i_o grant_v but_o then_o i_o say_v every_o difference_n do_v not_o in_o the_o sight_n of_o god_n divide_v this_o unity_n for_o then_o diversity_n of_o opinion_n shall_v do_v it_o and_o so_o the_o jesuit_n and_o dominican_n shall_v be_v no_o long_o member_n of_o the_o same_o church_n or_o if_o every_o difference_n will_v not_o do_v it_o why_o must_v it_o of_o necessity_n be_v always_o do_v by_o difference_n in_o communion_n upon_o a_o insufficient_a ground_n yet_o mistake_v for_o sufficient_a for_o such_o only_o i_o speak_v of_o sure_o i_o be_o this_o place_n say_v no_o such_o matter_n the_o next_o place_n say_v the_o flock_n be_v but_o one_o and_o all_o the_o rest_n that_o the_o church_n be_v but_o one_o and_o that_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n be_v not_o of_o it_o which_o certain_o be_v not_o the_o thing_n to_o be_v prove_v but_o that_o of_o this_o one_o flock_n of_o this_o one_o church_n two_o society_n divide_v without_o just_a cause_n in_o communion_n may_v not_o be_v true_a and_o lively_a member_n both_o in_o one_o body_n mystical_a in_o the_o sight_n of_o god_n though_o divide_v in_o unity_n in_o the_o sight_n of_o man_n it_o be_v true_a indeed_o whosoever_o be_v shut_v out_o from_o
as_o you_o now_o do_v this_o that_o two_o diviced_a society_n can_v be_v both_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n ad_fw-la §_o 8._o it_o be_v not_o then_o the_o answerers_n part_n to_o show_v that_o the_o proof_n pretend_v be_v indeed_o no_o proof_n and_o do_v not_o he_o prove_v no_o proof_n at_o least_o in_o your_o mouth_n who_o undertake_v to_o show_v that_o a_o equal_a or_o great_a number_n of_o the_o very_a same_o witness_n be_v reject_v by_o yourselves_o in_o many_o other_o thing_n either_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o father_n in_o any_o age_n or_o age_n be_v infallible_a and_o then_o you_o be_v to_o reject_v it_o in_o nothing_o or_o it_o be_v not_o so_o and_o then_o you_o be_v not_o to_o urge_v it_o in_o any_o thing_n as_o if_o the_o father_n testimony_n against_o we_o be_v sword_n and_o spear_n and_o against_o you_o bulrush_n ad_fw-la §_o 9_o in_o effect_n as_o if_o you_o shall_v say_v if_o you_o answer_v not_o as_o i_o please_v i_o will_v dispute_v no_o long_o but_o you_o remember_v the_o proverb_n will_v think_v of_o it_o occasionem_fw-la quaerit_fw-la qui_fw-la cupit_fw-la discedere_fw-la ad_fw-la §_o 10._o i_o pray_v tell_v i_o be_v not_o therefore_o a_o note_n of_o a_o illation_n or_o a_o conclusion_n and_o be_v not_o your_o last_o therefore_o this_o therefore_o her_o judgement_n be_v to_o be_v rest_v in_o which_o though_o it_o be_v not_o your_o first_o conclusion_n yet_o you_o it_o be_v and_o you_o may_v not_o declaim_v it_o and_o it_o be_v so_o near_o of_o kin_n to_o the_o former_a in_o your_o judgement_n i_o be_o sure_a that_o they_o must_v stand_v or_o fall_v together_o therefore_o he_o that_o speak_v pertinent_o for_o the_o disprove_v of_o the_o one_o can_v speak_v impertinent_o towards_o the_o disprove_v the_o other_o and_o therefore_o you_o can_v so_o shift_v it_o off_o but_o of_o necessity_n you_o must_v answer_v the_o argument_n there_o urge_v or_o confess_v it_o ingenuous_o to_o be_v unanswerable_a or_o if_o you_o will_v not_o answer_v any_o thing_n where_o the_o contradiction_n of_o your_o first_o conclusion_n be_v not_o in_o term_n infer_v then_o take_v it_o thus_o if_o s._n cyprian_n and_o s._n austin_n do_v not_o think_v it_o necessary_a in_o matter_n of_o faith_n to_o rest_v in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o the_o adherent_n of_o it_o then_o either_o they_o think_v not_o the_o catholic_n church_n judgement_n necessary_a to_o be_v rest_v on_o or_o they_o think_v not_o that_o the_o catholic_n church_n but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a and_o undeniable_o prove_v so_o by_o their_o action_n and_o the_o consequence_n evident_a therefore_o the_o consequent_a must_v be_v true_a in_o one_o or_o other_o part_n but_o you_o will_v not_o say_v the_o former_a be_v true_a it_o remain_v therefore_o the_o latter_a must_v be_v and_o that_o be_v that_o s._n austin_n and_o s._n cyprian_n do_v not_o think_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o adherent_n of_o it_o to_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n ad_fw-la §_o 11._o but_o i_o tell_v you_o now_o and_o have_v already_o tell_v you_o that_o in_o our_o discourse_n before_o mr._n skinâ—â—r_n and_o dr._n sheldon_n i_o answer_v your_o major_n as_o than_o you_o frame_v your_o argument_n as_o now_o your_o minor_a thus_o if_o you_o understand_v by_o one_o company_n of_o christian_n one_o in_o external_n communion_n i_o deny_v your_o major_n for_o i_o say_v that_o two_o several_a society_n of_o christian_n which_o do_v not_o external_o communicate_v together_o may_v be_v both_o part_n of_o the_o same_o catholic_n church_n and_o what_o difference_n there_o be_v between_o this_o and_o the_o conclusion_n i_o tell_v you_o you_o shall_v have_v prove_v i_o do_v not_o well_o unstand_a ad_fw-la §_o 12._o and_o be_v it_o possible_a you_o shall_v say_v so_o when_o every_o one_o of_o the_o place_n carry_v this_o sense_n in_o their_o forehead_n and_o 7_o of_o the_o 11_o in_o term_n express_v it_o that_o they_o intend_v only_o to_o exclude_v heretic_n and_o schismatic_n from_o be_v part_n of_o the_o church_n for_o if_o they_o do_v not_o against_o who_o do_v they_o intend_v they_o pagan_n lay_v no_o claim_n to_o the_o church_n therefore_o not_o against_o they_o catholic_n they_o do_v not_o intend_v to_o exclude_v i_o know_v not_o who_o remain_v beside_o but_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n beside_o the_o frequent_a opposition_n in_o they_o between_o one_o church_n on_o the_o one_o side_n and_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n who_o see_v not_o that_o in_o these_o place_n they_o intend_v to_o exclude_v only_o these_o pretender_n out_o of_o the_o church_n unity_n last_o whereas_o you_o say_v that_o the_o place_n say_v that_o the_o church_n can_v be_v divide_v and_o that_o they_o account_v those_o divide_v who_o be_v of_o a_o diverse_a faith_n or_o a_o diverse_a communion_n i_o tell_v you_o that_o i_o have_v read_v they_o over_o and_o over_o and_o unless_o my_o eye_n deceive_v they_o say_v not_o one_o word_n of_o a_o diverse_a communion_n ad_fw-la §_o 13._o whereas_o a_o heretic_n in_o your_o language_n be_v he_o that_o oppose_v pertinacious_o the_o common_a faith_n of_o the_o church_n in_o my_o he_o be_v such_o a_o one_o as_o hold_v a_o error_n against_o faith_n with_o obstinacy_n very_o a_o monstrous_a difference_n between_o these_o definition_n to_o oppose_v and_o hold_v against_o i_o hope_v be_v all_o one_o faith_n and_o the_o common_a faith_n of_o the_o church_n sure_o be_v not_o very_o different_a pertinacious_o and_o with_o obstinacy_n methinks_v may_v pass_v for_o synonimous_a and_o see_v the_o part_n agree_v so_o well_o methinks_v the_o total_a shall_v not_o be_v at_o great_a hostility_n and_o for_o the_o definition_n of_o a_o schismatic_a if_o you_o like_v not_o my_o which_o yet_o i_o give_v you_o out_o of_o a_o father_n i_o pray_v take_v your_o own_o and_o then_o show_v i_o if_o you_o mean_v to_o do_v any_o thing_n that_o wheresoever_o there_o be_v two_o society_n of_o christian_n differ_v in_o external_a communion_n one_o of_o they_o most_o be_v of_o necessity_n either_o heretical_a or_o schismatical_a in_o your_o own_o sense_n of_o these_o word_n to_o the_o contrary_a i_o have_v say_v already_o and_o say_v it_o now_o again_o that_o you_o may_v not_o forget_v it_o the_o roman_a and_o the_o asian_a church_n in_o victor_n time_n the_o roman_a and_o the_o african_a in_o s._n stephen_n time_n differ_v in_o external_a communion_n and_o yet_o neither_o of_o they_o be_v heretical_a for_o they_o do_v not_o oppose_v pertinacious_o the_o common_a faith_n of_o the_o church_n neither_o of_o they_o be_v schismatical_a for_o they_o do_v not_o separate_v never_o make_v mention_n of_o the_o cause_n at_o all_o but_o be_v separate_v by_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o that_o upon_o some_o cause_n though_o it_o be_v not_o sufficient_a ad_fw-la §_o 14._o the_o donatist_n do_v so_o as_o facundus_n hermianensis_fw-la testify_v but_o you_o be_v abuse_v i_o believe_v with_o not_o distinguish_v between_o these_o two_o they_o do_v pretend_v that_o the_o church_n require_v of_o they_o some_o unlawful_a thing_n among_o the_o condition_n of_o her_o communion_n and_o they_o do_v pretend_v that_o it_o be_v unlawful_a for_o they_o to_o communicate_v with_o the_o church_n this_o i_o confess_v they_o do_v pretend_v but_o it_o be_v in_o regard_n of_o some_o person_n in_o the_o church_n with_o who_o they_o think_v it_o unlawful_a to_o communicate_v but_o the_o former_a they_o do_v not_o pretend_v i_o mean_v while_o they_o continue_v mere_a schismatic_n viz._n that_o there_o be_v any_o error_n in_o the_o church_n or_o impiety_n in_o her_o public_a service_n of_o god_n and_o this_o be_v my_o meaning_n in_o say_v a_o schismatic_a be_v he_o which_o separate_v from_o the_o church_n without_o pretence_n of_o error_n or_o unlawfulness_n in_o the_o condition_n of_o her_o communion_n yet_o if_o i_o have_v leave_v out_o the_o term_n unlawfulness_n the_o definition_n have_v be_v better_a and_o not_o obnoxious_a to_o this_o cavillation_n and_o so_o i_o do_v in_o the_o second_o paper_n which_o i_o send_v you_o for_o your_o direction_n which_o if_o you_o have_v deal_v candid_o you_o shall_v have_v take_v notice_n of_o ad_fw-la §_o 15._o i_o have_v reply_v as_o i_o think_v full_o to_o every_o part_n and_o particle_n of_o your_o argument_n neither_o be_v the_o history_n of_o s._n cyprian_n and_o s._n augustine_n opposition_n to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n a_o excursion_n or_o diversion_n but_o a_o clear_a demonstation_n of_o the_o contradictory_n of_o your_o conclusion_n viz._n that_o the_o roman_a church_n etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o her_o judgement_n not_o to_o be_v rest_v upon_o for_o a_o answer_n hereto_o i_o shall_v be_v very_o importunate_a with_o you_o and_o therefore_o if_o you_o desire_v to_o avoid_v trouble_n i_o pray_v come_v out_o
of_o my_o debt_n as_o soon_o as_o may_v be_v if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o my_o argument_n be_v not_o contradictory_n to_o your_o conclusion_n because_o it_o show_v only_o that_o the_o roman_a church_n with_o her_o adherent_n be_v not_o in_o s._n cyprian_n or_o s._n augustine_n time_n the_o catholic_n church_n but_o be_v at_o the_o time_n before_o luther_n i_o say_v to_o conclude_v the_o one_o be_v to_o conclude_v the_o other_o for_o certain_o if_o it_o be_v then_o at_o luther_n time_n so_o it_o be_v always_o so_o if_o it_o be_v not_o always_o it_o be_v not_o then_o for_o if_o it_o be_v of_o the_o essence_n or_o necessary_a to_o the_o church_n as_o be_v pretend_v to_o be_v a_o society_n of_o christian_n join_v in_o communion_n with_o the_o church_n and_o bishop_n of_o rome_n then_o do_v it_o always_o agree_v to_o the_o church_n and_o therefore_o in_o s._n cyprian_n and_o s._n augustine_n time_n as_o well_o as_o at_o luhersâ—ising_v â—ising_z if_o it_o be_v not_o always_o particular_o not_o in_o s._n cyprian_n time_n of_o the_o essence_n or_o necessary_a to_o the_o church_n to_o be_v so_o than_o it_o be_v impossible_a the_o church_n shall_v acquire_v this_o essence_n or_o this_o property_n afterward_o and_o therefore_o impossible_a it_o shall_v have_v it_o at_o the_o time_n of_o luther_n rise_n necessarium_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la non_fw-la aliquando_fw-la inest_fw-la aliquando_fw-la not_o inest_fw-la alicui_fw-la inest_fw-la alicui_fw-la non_fw-la inest_fw-la sed_fw-la quod_fw-la semper_fw-la &_o oâ—ni_fw-la arist._n post._n analyt_v again_o every_o sophister_n know_v that_o of_o particular_n nothing_o can_v be_v conclude_v and_o therefore_o he_o that_o will_v show_v that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o adherent_n of_o it_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n at_o luther_n rise_v he_o must_v argue_v thus_o it_o be_v always_o so_o therefore_o then_o â—t_a be_v so_o now_o this_o antecedent_n be_v overthrow_v by_o any_o instance_n to_o the_o contrary_a and_o so_o the_o first_o antecedent_n be_v prove_v false_a the_o first_o consequent_a can_v but_o be_v false_a for_o what_o reason_n can_v be_v imagine_v that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o the_o adherent_n of_o it_o be_v not_o the_o whole_a catholic_n church_n at_o s._n cyprian_n time_n and_o be_v at_o luther_n rise_n if_o you_o grant_v as_o i_o think_v you_o can_v deny_v that_o a_o church_n divide_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o roman_a may_v be_v still_o in_o truth_n and_o in_o god_n account_n a_o part_n of_o the_o catholic_n which_o be_v the_o thing_n we_o speak_v of_o than_o i_o hope_v mr._n lewgars_n argument_n fâ—om_n unity_n of_o communion_n be_v fall_v to_o the_o ground_n and_o it_o will_v be_v no_o good_a plea_n to_o say_v some_o one_o church_n not_o consist_v of_o divers_a communion_n be_v the_o catholic_n church_n at_o luthersâ—ising_v â—ising_z no_o one_o church_n can_v be_v name_v to_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n but_o the_o roman_a therefore_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v the_o catholic_n at_o luther_n rise_n for_o mr._n lewgar_n have_v not_o nor_o can_v prove_v the_o major_a of_o this_o syllogism_n certain_o true_a but_o to_o the_o contrary_n i_o have_v prove_v that_o it_o can_v be_v certain_o true_a by_o show_v divers_a instance_n wherein_o divers_a divide_a communion_n have_v make_v up_o the_o catholic_n church_n and_o therefore_o not_o the_o divide_n of_o the_o communion_n but_o the_o cause_n and_o ground_n of_o it_o be_v to_o be_v regard_v whether_o it_o be_v just_a and_o sufficient_a or_o unjust_a and_o insufficient_a neither_o be_v the_o bishop_n or_o church_n of_o rome_n with_o the_o adherent_n of_o it_o a_o infallible_a judge_n thereof_o for_o it_o be_v evident_a both_o he_o and_o it_o have_v err_v herein_o divers_a time_n which_o i_o have_v evince_v already_o by_o divers_a example_n which_o i_o will_v not_o repeat_v but_o add_v to_o they_o one_o confess_v by_o mr._n lewgar_n himself_o in_o his_o discourse_n upon_o the_o article_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n pag._n 84._o s._n athanasius_n be_v excommunicate_v though_o by_o the_o it_o whole_a church_n yet_o may_v remain_v a_o member_n of_o christ_n body_n not_o visible_a for_o that_o be_v impossible_a excommunicate_v that_o a_o person_n cut_v off_o from_o visible_a communion_n though_o unjust_o shall_v be_v a_o visible_a member_n of_o the_o church_n but_o by_o invisible_a communion_n by_o reason_n of_o the_o invalidity_n of_o the_o sentence_n which_o be_v unjust_a be_v valid_a enough_o to_o visible_a excision_n but_o not_o far_o ii_o a_o discourse_n against_o the_o infallibility_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n with_o a_o answer_n to_o all_o those_o text_n of_o scripture_n that_o be_v allege_v to_o prove_v it_o the_o condition_n of_o communion_n with_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n without_o the_o performance_n whereof_o no_o man_n can_v be_v receive_v into_o it_o be_v this_o that_o he_o believe_v firm_o and_o without_o doubt_v whatsoever_o that_o church_n require_v he_o to_o believe_v it_o be_v impossible_a that_o any_o man_n shall_v certain_o believe_v any_o thing_n unless_o that_o thing_n be_v either_o evident_a of_o itself_o as_o that_o twice_o two_o be_v four_o that_o every_o whole_a be_v great_a than_o a_o part_n of_o itself_o or_o unless_o he_o have_v some_o certain_a reason_n at_o least_o some_o suppose_a certain_a reason_n and_o infallible_a guide_n for_o his_o belief_n thereof_o the_o doctrine_n which_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n require_v to_o be_v believe_v be_v not_o evident_a of_o themselves_o for_o then_o every_o one_o will_v grant_v they_o at_o first_o hear_v without_o any_o further_a proof_n he_o therefore_o that_o will_v believe_v they_o must_v have_v some_o certain_a and_o infallible_a ground_n whereupon_o to_o â—â—â—ld_v his_o belief_n of_o they_o there_o be_v no_o other_o ground_n for_o a_o man_n belief_n of_o they_o especial_o in_o many_o point_n but_o only_o a_o assurance_n of_o the_o infallibility_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n now_o this_o point_n of_o that_o church_n infallibility_n be_v not_o evident_a of_o itself_o for_o than_o no_o man_n can_v choose_v but_o in_o his_o heart_n believe_v it_o without_o far_a proof_n second_o it_o be_v in_o vain_a to_o bring_v any_o proof_n of_o it_o as_o vain_a as_o to_o light_v a_o candle_n to_o show_v man_n the_o sun_n three_o it_o be_v impossible_a to_o bring_v any_o proof_n of_o it_o see_v nothing_o can_v be_v more_o evident_a than_o that_o which_o of_o itself_o be_v evident_a and_o nothing_o can_v be_v bring_v in_o proof_n of_o any_o thing_n which_o be_v not_o more_o evident_a than_o that_o matter_n to_o be_v prove_v but_o now_o experience_n teach_v that_o million_o there_o be_v which_o have_v hear_v talk_n of_o the_o infallibitliy_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o yet_o do_v not_o believe_v that_o the_o defender_n of_o it_o do_v not_o think_v it_o either_o vain_a or_o impossible_a to_o go_v about_o to_o prove_v it_o and_o from_o hence_o it_o follow_v plain_o that_o this_o point_n be_v not_o evident_a of_o itself_o neither_o be_v there_o any_o other_o certain_a ground_n for_o any_o man_n belief_n of_o it_o or_o if_o there_o be_v i_o desire_v it_o may_v be_v produce_v as_o who_o be_o ready_a and_o most_o willing_a to_o submit_v my_o judgement_n to_o it_o full_o persuade_v that_o none_o can_v be_v produce_v that_o will_v endure_v a_o severe_a and_o impartial_a examination_n if_o it_o be_v say_v the_o roman_a church_n be_v to_o be_v believe_v infallible_a because_o the_o scripture_n say_v it_o be_v so_o 1._o i_o demand_v how_o shall_v i_o be_v assure_v of_o the_o text_n that_o be_v allege_v that_o they_o be_v indeed_o scripture_n that_o be_v the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o the_o answer_n to_o this_o must_v be_v either_o because_o the_o church_n tell_v i_o so_o or_o some_o other_o if_o any_o other_o be_v give_v than_o all_o be_v not_o final_o resolve_v into_o and_o build_v upon_o that_o church_n authority_n and_o this_o answer_n than_o i_o hope_v a_o protestant_n may_v have_v leave_n to_o make_v use_n of_o when_o he_o be_v put_v to_o that_o perilous_a question_n how_o know_v you_o the_o scripture_n to_o be_v the_o scripture_n if_o the_o answer_n be_v because_o the_o church_n tell_v i_o so_o my_o reply_n be_v ready_a that_o to_o believe_v that_o church_n be_v infallible_a because_o the_o scripture_n say_v so_o and_o that_o the_o scripture_n be_v the_o word_n of_o god_n because_o the_o same_o church_n say_v so_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o to_o believe_v the_o church_n be_v infallible_a because_o the_o church_n say_v so_o which_o be_v infallible_a 2._o i_o can_v never_o yet_o from_o the_o begin_n of_o genesis_n to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o apocalypse_n find_v it_o write_v so_o much_o as_o once_o in_o express_a term_n or_o equvalent_o that_o the_o church_n in_o subordination_n to_o the_o sea_n of_o rome_n
well_o intend_v they_o for_o that_o purpose_n which_o i_o conceive_v as_o for_o that_o which_o you_o conceive_v the_o last_o place_n allege_v tell_v we_o that_o she_o be_v beget_v and_o bear_v as_o other_o man_n and_o woman_n be_v which_o if_o the_o collyridians_n have_v think_v her_o god_n eternal_a and_o absolute_o without_o beginning_n shall_v not_o have_v be_v bare_o say_v but_o prove_v as_o be_v in_o effect_n the_o very_a point_n in_o question_n and_o therefore_o see_v epiphanius_n content_v himself_o with_o say_v so_o without_o proof_n it_o be_v evident_a he_o never_o think_v they_o will_v make_v difficulty_n to_o grant_v it_o and_o consequent_o that_o they_o do_v not_o believe_v she_o to_o be_v god_n eternal_a but_o then_o again_o if_o the_o rule_n be_v good_a which_o part_n of_o your_o proof_n depend_v upon_o that_o whatever_o epiphanius_n deny_v in_o this_o discourse_n that_o the_o collyridians_n hold_v for_o upon_o that_o ground_n from_o non_fw-la &_o deum_fw-la hanc_fw-la efficeret_fw-la &_o non_fw-la tamen_fw-la deus_fw-la you_o conclude_v they_o believe_v she_o god_n if_o i_o say_v this_o rule_n be_v good_a than_o you_o shall_v be_v constant_a to_o it_o and_o now_o that_o he_o say_v non_fw-la tamen_fw-la aliter_fw-la genita_fw-la est_fw-la praeter_fw-la hominum_fw-la naturam_fw-la she_o be_v not_o beget_v in_o a_o different_a way_n from_o other_o man_n you_o shall_v infer_v that_o they_o believe_v not_o that_o she_o be_v god_n but_o that_o she_o be_v otherwise_o bear_v and_o beget_v than_o the_o ordinary_a sort_n of_o men._n and_o so_o whereas_o he_o say_v before_o non_fw-la tamen_fw-la corpus_fw-la de_fw-la caelum_fw-la tulit_fw-la her_z body_n be_v not_o from_o heaven_n you_o shall_v infer_v that_o they_o believe_v her_o body_n come_v from_o heaven_n and_o again_o from_o those_o sanctum_fw-la erat_fw-la mariae_fw-la corpus_fw-la non_fw-la tamen_fw-la deus_fw-la you_o shall_v collect_v that_o they_o though_o not_o only_o her_o person_n but_o her_o body_n to_o be_v god_n or_o if_o these_o be_v wild_a and_o weak_a deduction_n than_o you_o must_v acknowledge_v that_o i_o have_v do_v you_o some_o favour_n in_o vouchsafe_v they_o a_o particular_a answer_n 5._o demand_v whether_o in_o the_o church_n of_o roman_a it_o be_v not_o a_o approve_a and_o perpetual_o practise_v worship_n of_o the_o bless_a virgin_n that_o incense_n which_o be_v never_o ancient_o offer_v unto_o any_o either_o by_o jew_n or_o gentile_n but_o to_o the_o true_a or_o to_o a_o suppose_a true_a god_n and_o taper_n and_o divers_a other_o oblation_n shall_v be_v offer_v to_o her_o honour_n answ._n a_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o approve_v too_o by_o those_o that_o practise_v it_o belong_v not_o to_o she_o except_o it_o be_v a_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n and_o approve_a by_o she_o what_o her_o practice_n be_v abroad_o i_o know_v not_o here_o at_o home_n i_o see_v no_o such_o practice_n nor_o do_v i_o know_v any_o approbation_n of_o it_o in_o any_o of_o her_o public_a declaration_n but_o this_o i_o know_v that_o there_o be_v nothing_o in_o it_o unlawful_a or_o savour_v of_o the_o collyridian_n superstition_n to_o offer_v wax_n taper_n or_o any_o other_o thing_n at_o the_o memory_n of_o the_o bless_a virgin_n or_o any_o other_o canonize_v saint_n either_o as_o mean_n to_o procure_v their_o intercession_n by_o these_o outward_a sign_n of_o the_o honour_n and_o devotion_n which_o they_o bear_v to_o they_o as_o of_o old_a we_o find_v by_o s._n austin_n etc._n they_o do_v use_v to_o adorn_v their_o tomb_n with_o flower_n or_o as_o monument_n of_o their_o thankfulness_n for_o some_o benefit_n receive_v by_o their_o intercession_n as_o theodoret_n 8._o tell_v we_o of_o eye_n and_o ear_n and_o haâ—ds_n some_o of_o gold_n and_o some_o of_o silver_n hang_v up_o in_o the_o chapel_n of_o the_o saint_n that_o have_v be_v present_v as_o oblation_n by_o those_o that_o have_v recover_v health_n in_o those_o member_n according_a to_o their_o vow_n make_v to_o that_o purpose_n in_o time_n of_o sickness_n reply_n i_o do_v not_o deny_v but_o a_o practice_n may_v be_v tolerate_v in_o a_o church_n and_o not_o approve_v as_o the_o public_a stew_n be_v in_o italy_n and_o usury_n in_o england_n but_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o tolerate_v with_o condemnation_n another_o to_o tolerate_v without_o condemnation_n nay_o with_o condemnation_n of_o those_o that_o shall_v oppose_v or_o condemn_v it_o and_o such_o i_o doubt_v not_o upon_o examination_n you_o may_v find_v be_v this_o practice_n general_a in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n offer_v taper_n to_o the_o saint_n and_o for_o their_o honour_n i_o say_v not_o only_o to_o god_n at_o the_o memory_n of_o the_o saint_n as_o you_o will_v mince_v the_o matter_n which_o yet_o be_v a_o groundless_a superstition_n god_n have_v appoint_v no_o such_o sacrifice_n to_o be_v offer_v to_o he_o under_o the_o gospel_n but_o to_o the_o saint_n themselves_o and_o to_o their_o honour_n prove_v this_o lawful_a for_o either_o of_o those_o purpose_n you_o mention_v either_o to_o procure_v their_o intercession_n or_o as_o monument_n of_o thankfulness_n for_o benefit_n obtain_v by_o it_o and_o then_o you_o shall_v do_v something_o otherwise_o you_o will_v but_o trifle_v as_o now_o you_o have_v do_v for_o instead_o of_o tell_v we_o what_o may_v be_v do_v de_fw-la jure_fw-la you_o tell_v we_o what_o of_o old_a have_v be_v do_v de_fw-fr facto_fw-la as_o if_o ab_fw-la antiquo_fw-la and_o a_o principio_fw-la be_v all_o one_o or_o as_o if_o the_o church_n as_o we_o pretend_v be_v subject_a to_o corruption_n part_n of_o this_o corruption_n may_v not_o possible_o have_v come_v in_o s._n augustine_n or_o theodoret_n time_n yet_o this_o i_o say_v not_o as_o if_o i_o will_v decline_v the_o trial_n of_o this_o cause_n by_o s._n austin_n or_o theodoret_n but_o because_o i_o be_o sure_a you_o will_v not_o be_v try_v by_o the_o father_n no_o not_o the_o consent_n of_o father_n in_o all_o thing_n and_o therefore_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n nor_o equity_n in_o the_o world_n that_o you_o shall_v serve_v yourselves_o with_o their_o authority_n in_o any_o thing_n but_o now_o what_o be_v it_o which_o be_v do_v in_o s._n augustine_n time_n that_o may_v justify_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v there_o then_o any_o approve_a offering_n of_o wax_n taper_n and_o incense_n to_o the_o queen_n of_o heaven_n or_o any_o other_o saint_n will_v horum_fw-la you_o neither_o do_v nor_o can_v produce_v any_o thing_n out_o of_o s._n austin_n to_o this_o purpose_n but_o what_o then_o be_v it_o why_o forsooth_o they_o be_v use_v to_o adorn_v their_o tomb_n egregiam_fw-la verò_fw-la laudem_fw-la &_o spolia_fw-la ampla_fw-la of_o old_a in_o s._n augustine_n time_n they_o be_v use_v to_o adorn_v their_o tomb_n with_o flower_n therefore_o we_o may_v offer_v taper_n to_o they_o true_o a_o excellent_a enthymeme_n but_o i_o fear_v the_o conceal_a proposition_n which_o shall_v make_v it_o a_o syllogism_n hide_v its_o head_n for_o shame_n and_o dare_v not_o appear_v yet_o we_o will_v for_o once_o make_v bold_a to_o draw_v it_o forth_o into_o light_n that_o you_o may_v look_v upon_o it_o and_o tell_v we_o how_o you_o like_v it_o this_o therefore_o it_o be_v who_o soever_o tomb_n we_o adorn_v to_o they_o and_o to_o their_o honour_n we_o may_v offer_v wax_n taper_n consider_v it_o i_o pray_v you_o and_o if_o you_o approve_v it_o then_o approve_v also_o of_o offer_v taper_n not_o only_o to_o canonize_v saint_n but_o to_o all_o christian_n that_o may_v have_v monument_n in_o church_n for_o all_o their_o tomb_n may_v be_v adorn_v with_o more_o precious_a and_o last_a ornament_n that_o flower_n yet_o if_o you_o have_v prove_v but_o this_o only_a that_o in_o s._n augustine_n time_n they_o adorn_v the_o saint_n tomb_n with_o flower_n by_o these_o outward_a sign_n to_o procure_v their_o intercession_n this_o though_o not_o much_o to_o the_o purpose_n have_v be_v not_o absolute_o to_o delude_v we_o but_o your_o quote_v place_n prove_v not_o so_o much_o as_o this_o and_o yet_o i_o believe_v you_o quote_v the_o best_a you_o can_v find_v nay_o they_o prove_v not_o they_o do_v adorn_v their_o tomb_n with_o flower_n at_o all_o much_o less_o that_o they_o do_v it_o for_o your_o pretend_a purpose_n such_o fool_n you_o think_v to_o deal_v with_o that_o will_v take_v any_o thing_n for_o any_o thing_n your_o first_o place_n i_o say_v prove_v it_o not_o unless_o out_o of_o mere_a courtesy_n we_o understand_v by_o ferebat_fw-la she_o bring_v to_o adorn_v s._n stephens_n tomb._n the_o second_o prove_v it_o not_o unless_o we_o give_v you_o leave_v after_o altari_fw-la without_o warrant_n from_o s._n austin_n to_o put_v in_o s._n stephani_n whereas_o i_o be_o yet_o to_o seek_v for_o any_o place_n in_o s._n austin_n where_o he_o call_v any_o