thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
hundreth and fiue Gallia Britannia Africa Persis oriens Iâ—dia omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis R. But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus C. Men may giue names as they please but hee and Servanus Sedulius Nimanus and many more came but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord and may well haue beene waterers of our Church but sure it is they were not the first planters of it R. It is likely indeed to be so C. But to returne Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots who did louingly receiue them and assigned to them the Isle of Mâ—n and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodoâ—eÌ„sis ecclesia wherin they peaceably worshipped Christ Iesus and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus which was about the â—ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came Therefore â—iergusâ— King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fyâ—â—e where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew desire you still to heare any more R. Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome C. Remember you not what I haue prooued seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome thinke you in so small time they did so encrease that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth Yea rather if you will reade the Storie you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares wherein are many three yeares they were so vexed by the persecutors that they could not get their owne Church stablished as after it was when God relented the persecution But to come nâ—erer yet vnto you whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man that first planted our Church I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches not froÌ„ the Latine or West Church R. Nowe that is the point and I pray you once cleare it for I thinke if you euince that the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church but no mother church C. My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas writing to Bernard who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ the Scottishmen did celebraâ—e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner not aster the Romane R. I vnderstand not that C. Then I will tell you it Soone after the dayes of the Apostles there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West about the celebration of the Passeouer They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer They againe of the West thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day Polïcrates with the orientall Bishops alledged the authoritie of Iohn Philip Policarp yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant Victor and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant Saint Peter Saint Paul Such as were more moderate misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter Irenaeus iudgeth Obseruationes illâ—s esse liberâ—s Socrates Ostendit nec Victorem nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi Nam nec Seruator inquit nec Apostoli 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Seeing neither our Sauiour nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof R. Truely it was a lamentable thing to see so sore a renting of the Church for so small a cause C. It was indeede and yet that in this controuersie the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them R. It is indeede likely If these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies C. But there is yet an other Argument Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior the Legate of Gregorie the great nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior to perswade the Church there to receiue the Romish ceremonies which to that day they had not knowne as Altars Images Vestiments Crosses wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would yet at length did he obtaine it and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland but was strongly resisted by Daganus and Columbanus Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church keeping still their ancient custome for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies which part waxed the stronger in that King Osuvius inclined to them Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention that from words it came to wepons and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate yet the euill rested not heere for at length in the eight hundreth yeare by thâ— perswasion of one Ecbertus this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies and thereafter their corrupt doctrine And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie and sinceritie of the Churâ—h of Britaine By all this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches and specially how far they wrong this Isle when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted for indeed she is a Stepmother and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also That Rome is Bâ—bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference where we shall yet more abuÌ„dantly
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
yet for Ioseph of Arimathea about the yeare of our Lord fiftie three came also to Britaine and taught the Gospell witnesses hereof are Balaeus Flemingus Capgrauus Scropus Polidorus Virgilius and as many thinke he was sent by Philip out of France ouer to Britaine Moreouer Theodoret witnesseth that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliuerance out of Prison vnder Nero came into Britaine and taught the Gospell And the same also is testified by Sophronius Patriarch of Ierusalem R. I remember indeede that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to haue come to Spaine C. And you may the more easily think he came to Britaine in like manner seeing so famous an Author affirmes it and you shal like it the better if you coÌ„sider the matter he hath in hand when he makes mention of the conversion of Britaine R. I pray you let me heare it C. The Graecians alledged that our first propagators of the evangell were base men not comparable for wisedome and Learning to their Law-giuers Lycurgus Solon and the rest This Father replyed that the lawes of their Law-giuers were only receiued in Graecia but that our first Preachers of the Gospell had in short time made the most famous Countries and Kingdomes of the World to embrace it An euident argument of a diuine power assisting them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. for sayes hee our Fithers and Publicans and that Tent maker or Cutter of Leather so hee calles Saint Paul hath not only made the Romans and these who liue vnder their Empire to embrace the Christian faith but also thâ— Scythians Sauromatans Indians Ethiopians Persians Britans Germans and in a word hath induced all Nations 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to receiue the Lawes of CHRIST crucified What thinke you of this testimonie R. Truly I am glad to heare that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercie on this Countrie of ours to coÌ„municate to them the grace of the Gospell C. You shal yet heare more that Aristobolus mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle and discharged the Office of a Bishop as witnesseth the forenamed Dorotheus May you not see wee are not inferiour to any Christian Countrie in this part of the World and that we haue as many cleare witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith as any nation of Europe hath for them R. Indeede I see you haue more then I would haue beleeued if their authoritie be good enough C. What need you doubt of their authoritie for if testimonies of Fathers of the Primitiue Church bee good to proue the Antiquitie of any Church in Europe why should their authoritie be called in doubt wheÌ„ they speake for our Church R. But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first who sent some of their Clergie to this Isle to convert it to the faith C. You may see the contrarie by that which I haue said alreadie and I will yet make it more cleare to you The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christian faith was Lucius in the yâ—are of our LORD one hundreth twentie and foure In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Christian R. That is true but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to send him some teachers to instruct him in the Christian faith and as the Chronicle recordes he sent into Britaine Damianus â—nd Fugatianus C. What will you gather of that R. That this I le was converted by such teachers as the Bishop of Rome sent into it C. How can you say that seeing many in the Kingdomes were conuerted before the Kings were converted your owne Baronius cannot denie it these are his wordes Cum diu alioqui anie Euangelium Christi illuâ— perlatum fuisset vt testatur Gilda sapiens that long before those men Damianus and Fugaâ—ianus came here the Gospel was here as witnesseth Gilda the wise Seing your owne Writers are â—orced to confesse it I maruel with what face can any man say that the Gospell came to vs from Rome R. All that you haue yet said makes something for the Church of England nothing for the Church of Scotland C. Wâ— inhabit both one Isle and what good or euill specially in Religion hath come to the one hath beene fouâ—d by manifold experiences easily deriued to the other R. But what think you whether came the light of the Gospell first to you or to them C. That is a Iesuiticall Policy to diuide them whome GOD hath coupled and to cause vs to contend together in that wherin we agree ioyntly to contend with the Church of Rome what part of the Isle God did first illuminate with his light is nothing to the matter If it was their glorie to haue the Sunne of righteousnesse first shining on them wee enuie it not this is sufficient the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome and neither they nor wee had our faith from Rome and if â—ou or any for you will call in doubt the antiquitie of the Church of England I warrant you you shall finde a number both of Learned and Graue Diuines wherein they are not inferiour to any Church in Europe to answere for themselues And if yet you craue further light concerning the antiquity of our Church I will shew you that which may content you if you be reasonable R. Let me heare what is that C. Marke me this testimonie of Tertullian who liued in the two hundreth yeare of Christ Britannorumloca Romanismaccessa Christo subdita sunt Now what part of Britaine he meanes your owne Cardinall Baâ—onius will declare vnto you for when he hath said magnam Bâ—itanniâ—e partem fuisse liberam then hee proues it by the wall built so often by Victoâ—ine by Adriâ—n as hee cites ex Aâ—lio Spartianom Adriano and an other ceâ—â—â—tius murus built by Antoninâ—s Pius as he cites out of Iulius Capitolinus in Pio. By this saith he it is euident that Britannia was diuided by a wall that part within the wâ—ll was possessed by Româ—ns the other without Britanni liberè possiderunt qui saepe muros illos egresâ— Romanos praelijs provocarunâ— What say ye now of these testimonies R. I thinke indeede that is a great testimonie for the antiquitie of your Church C. So you may for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos calles Scottish men the more auncient Christians You will make then no more contradiction but that these testimonies which record the conuersion of Britaine belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle R. Your former argument brought out of Tertullian and expounded by Baronius cleares that C. Yet if you please heare what Origen sayes who liued in the yeare of CHRIST two hundreth and sixtie hee also witnesseth Britanniam in Christianam consentire religionem To him we may adde Ierome in the yeare of our Lord foure
the truth and follow it C. Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you but you know what the Apostle sayes Brethren yee see your calling not many wise not many noble nor mightie men after the flesh are called but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound â—he wise R. I knowe that is the Apostles saying but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde them backe from knowledge of the truth C. You shall cease to maruel if you conâ—â—der one thing R. What is that C. VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World how many of the Nobles and Learned Rabbins did know him Will you find any more among the Nobleâ— but Ioseph of Arâ—mathea Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus R. Truly not that I remember C. Was it then thinke you a good argumeÌ„t they vsed against Christ Doth any of the Rulers or Scribes beleeue in Christâ— but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law R. No indeed C. Bee not then moued with the like now Oh say the Papists how many Learned men are of our Religion Euery man naturall in things pertaining to eternall life is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without a minde till hee bee illuminate by grace were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle or in policie as Achitophel he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them R. The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs which is hid from so many in the World C. Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come and warne vs to looke for him at Rome Let no man seduce you by any meanes for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the man of sinne bee reuealed the sonne of perdition which is an aduersarie and extolled aboue all which is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal 2.3 Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way C. What thinke you of this Prophecie R. I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire C. No Sir the most iudicious both Ancient and Recent expound it to bee a falling from the faith As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei â—ib 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place R. But granting it were so yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome C. No that is also a silly shift when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar doe they meane any one single Pope R. No but the state or succession of Popes C. Very well and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite doe wee vnderstand this man or that man no truly but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection R. But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope or the Church of Rome and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith it is meant of Luther Caluine and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome C. Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the sâ—me purpose and see how he expounds himselfe R. Where is that C. Here are his wordes 1. Timothie 4.1 Now the Spirit speakes euidently that in the last times some shall depart from the faith attending to Spirits of errour and Doctrine of Deuils and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie to wit that they shall forbid mariage and command abstinence from meates which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing VVhat thinke you now whether doth this touch them or vs R. I know it cannot concerne you for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe C. Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits and others neerest the Apostles dayes as the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues for the Apostles saye this Apostasie shall fall out in the laâ—t times And the former Prophesie saies that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way then shall the Apostasie worke to the height as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople the Emperour decreased the Bishop of Rome more and more increased so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire And who tell mee hath growne by the decay of the Empire None but the Pope he hath his Imperial seat his robes his crowne his rents so that the Emperor except the name the double Eagle hath littlâ— or nothing of the Empire And therfore Aquinas who saw what was the meaning of that place moues the doubt What shall wee answere saies he seeing the Roman Empire is decayed how can we denie buâ— Antichrist is come To this he answeres we must say the Roman Empire is not away only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual what thinke you is there not good stuffe here R. In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker C. So may you But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name and albeit he make mention also oâ— other names as Eâ—an and Teitan yet sayes hee sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 valde verisimile est Tertullian contra Marcion Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est proinde magnae regno superbae sanctorum Dei debellatricis Tertullian de resurrectione carnis see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie Only he who now withholds let till hee be taken out of the way Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status câ—ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet tunc revelabitur iniquus c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine Et iterum Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus Cyril Cateches 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint
different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine against the exposition of the commandement Thou shalt beare no false witnesse in that question de mendacio and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as we doe that therefore they were not a Church R. It is no reason C. Cyprian in the point of rebaptising taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church R. It followes not indeed C. Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin who in all points taught as we teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from an other But as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Aâ—gustine Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered oâ—e doctrine and did teach the way of God truly R. Theâ— you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion C. I think sâ— indeed hope to die in that same faith whereâ—â— they liued and died R. It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion C. No maruell it be strange there where Truth is a stranger but this answere was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it Patres in maximis sunt nostri in multis varij â—n minimis vestri Such Fathers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many thinges are doubtfull in smallest thinges they are yours R. Well I shall remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church C. Answere me but an other question and it shall resolue you R. What is that C. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall â—lie to the desert that is as themselues expound it The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it bee unknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England R. What doth that helpe you C. Very much that which they themselues say will bee done wee say is done Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecuted it as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France R. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much C. What greater clearenesse can you craue If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will bee obsâ—ured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist and yet was R. The answere is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularlâ— C. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I can not point forth men preaching and professing as wee doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne R. Make that good C. Remeâ—us a Popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome then all other sects foâ— three causes First because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all thinges well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede onely they blaspheme hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther R. I but hee calles them a Sect and saies they blasphemed the Church C. So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarits Act. 24.5 What is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had beene from the beginning secondly had beene in all Countries thirdly was honest in lise sound in faith saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Baâ—el And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this Think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach if our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also R. That can not bee denied C. Well then if you please name mee any controuersie of religion concerning any Article of faith betweene vs and the Papists thiâ— day and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it R. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength trust in the ancient fathers C. Bragge what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers decke their errors with it but wee shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth R. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of theÌ„ to name first C. Then will it please you to take a view of these which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse R. With a very good will let me see what they are C. They are here in a little sâ—role and I haue collected theÌ„ for my owne confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed
Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam dare non tamen qâ—ia semel erratum est ideo semper errandum est God is able of his great mercy to giue indulgence but yet there is no reason that wee should alwayâ—s â—rrâ— because they once did erre R. In truth that is a very modest answere C. But heare you what further he saith Si quis ex Antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci quia à Domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our forefathers either of ignorance or simplicity hath not holden and obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs to doe by his example there may bee mercie granted to his simplicity out of Gods indulgence but we cannot be forgiuen who now are otherwise instructed admonished by the Lord. R. That answer I see is more sharp and yet most reasonable many things are excusable in the night that are not tolerable in the day The seruant that knows his Mâ—sters will and doâ—h it not is worthy of double stripes C. And I am glad you see it and I would many more had their eyes open to see it who thinke Papistry now tolerable in the dayes of light as it was in the dayes of darkenesse it was a fault then for euen the seruaÌ„t who knowes not his Masters will shall be stricken but it is a double fault now for hee who knowes his Masters will and does the contrary shall haue double sâ—ripes R. Then I see you will not giue out iudgement vpon the persoÌ„s of Papists whether they bee saued or damned C. Indeed I will not and that for two causes first because as I haue said many are Papists by name which are no Papists some of ignorance some of vaine glory some of policy to get themselues the more credite And as to these who are infected indeed with the heresies of Papistrie yet is it vncertain if they shall so continue for the Lord is maâ—uellous in working with such as belong to his election that howsoeuer for the prâ—sent wee see them in sinne and ignorance yeâ— know wee not what they will be â— so many secret wayes â—â—th the Lord in time of sicknâ—sse yea in the very howre of dâ—ath to draw the hâ—arts of mâ—n towardâ— himselfe which are hid from vs that it wâ—re but presumption to iudge of an other mans saluation or reprobation R. Indeed I commeÌ„d you for I thinke you speak with that sobriety which becomâ— a christiaÌ„ C. And yet whatsoeuer I haue said concerning the persons of Papists there is further to bee saide of Papistrie it selfe that it is a doctrine so full of heresies so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospell that I dare say a man beleeuing all the points of Papistrie and perseuering in them â—o the end without repentance cannot bee saued R. Now that is the point I pray you make it cleare C. It is cleare by these places following which will shew you that Papistrie is a doctrine of Diuels a plague of God and a iust punishment laied on reprobate men for their sinnes and a forerunner of the wrath to come R. Good sooth I quake to heare this C. You shall see them al particularly qualified and first there is a Prophesie made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come in these words Now the spirite speakes euidently that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giuing heed to the spirites of error doctrine of Diuels which speake lies in hipocrisie hauing their conscience burned with an hote yron forbidding to marrie and commanding to abstaine from meates c. Perceiue you not here that the doctrine which forbids mariage and commands abstinence from meates is called a doctrine of diuels R. Very well but that is meant of heretikes which were soone after the Apostles daies as Ebioâ—its Marcionits c. C. Nay that is a sillie shift for he saieth these teachers shal come in the latter times and the departure from the faith wherof hee prophesieth was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire but in the daies of Ebion Marcion c. the Roman Empire was in great glorie R. But if that bee meant of any Apostasie in the later times it is of your sect will they say that hath fallen froÌ„ the church of Rome C. It cannot be meant of vs for wee neitheâ— forbid mariage nor command abstinence from meates for conscience sake R. That is verie true but may not the Church for some causes command abstinencie froÌ„ meats C. Yes for Prayer and deuotion and that for a time onely but not because any meate is vncleane or one meat is holier then an other as they thinke their Chartrouse Monkes more holy that neuer eate flesh then others are and why forsooth because flesh and not fish was accursed in the daies of Noah R. Indeed that seemes to be somewhat superstitious C. Well I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question It is cleare these are two points of Papisticall doctrine called by the Apostle doctrine of Diuels So I proceede There shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the very elect Mat. 24.24 The comming of Antichrist by the working of Satan with all power and signes and lying wonders 2. Thess. 2.9 And in aâ—â— deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnes among them that perish because they receiued not the truth â—hat they might bee saued ibid ver 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions that they should belieue lies verse 11. That all they might be damned which belieued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse ver 12. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship the beast whose names are not written in the Bookâ— of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning Reuel 13.8 And he deceiued them which dwelt on earth by the signes which were permitted him to doe ver 14. If any man worshippe the beast c. the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God and shall bee tormented in fire and brimstone Reu. 14.9.10 Goe out of Babel my people that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes and receiue not of her plagues These places make cleare vnto you that it is onelie the reprobate worldly-minded called therefore dwellers on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life children of perdition it is only they I say who are fullie and finally deceiued with the spirit of Antichrist and that in Gods righteous iudgement are giuen ouer to belieue lies because they receiued not the loue of the truth What thinke yee of these R. In truth I am astonished to heare these fearefull places C. This is yet further cleared