as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi◠is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs◠betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the church-Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the church-Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching church-Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the church-Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
of Constantinople to haue bene meant by Gregorie it is now declared in your Gratian too The Patriarke was too loftie to confesse himselfe subiect to the Pope he sought to make the Pope his subiect Hart. Perhaps he had sought it before but not then For certainely S. Gregorie saying that the Church of Constantinople is subiect to the See of Rome addeth that Eusebius the Bishop of the same citie doth confesse it still Rainoldes There was no Eusebius Bishop of that citie in all Gregories time And they who were Bishops first Iohn then Cyriacus did vsurpe the title of vniuersall Patriarke as Gregorie himselfe declareth Wherefore either Gregorie wrote more then was true to chéere vp his subiects or some hath chopt into him that which he wrote not to aduaunce the credit of the See of Rome But howsoeuer he thought all Bishops subiect to it if any fault be found in them perhaps as S. Peter was subiect to S. Paule and Christians are one to an other to be reproued by their brethren when they do offend but if he meant more as perhaps he did of a good wil to his See yet he meant not that which toucheth the point of the Popes supremacie geuen you to proue to wéete that Bishops causes through the whole world must be referred to him And hereof himselfe is a sufficient witnesse in that he ouerruleth the case by the law of Iustinian the Emperour For if any man sayth he accuse a Bishop for whatsoeuer cause let the cause bee iudged by his Metropolitan If any man gainsay the Metropolitans iudgemeÌ„t let it be referred to the Archbishop and Patriarke of that diocese and let him end it according to the canons and lawes Hart. The causes of Bishops I grant must first be heard of their Metropolitans and next of their Patriarkes Yet if the Patriarkes iudgement be misliked too then may the partie gréeued appeale to the Pope and so they come to him last Rainoldes Gregorie meant not so but that the last iudge thereof should be the Patriarke as did Iustinian also Which they shew playnely by saying Let him end it according to the canons and lawes For both the canons of that Councell which referred the causes of Bishops to the Patriarkes did meÌ„tion theÌ„ as the last Iudges the lawes of Emperours which granted appeales from Metropolitans to them granted no appeale from them to any other nay for bad expressely al appealing from them Hart. Yet euen there S. Gregorie giueth a speciall priuilege and preeminence to the Pope aboue other Patriarkes For he addeth that if a Bishop haue no Metropolitan nor Patriarke at all then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolike which is the head of all Churches Rainoldes True he addeth that beyond the canons of Councels and the lawes of Emperours But in the meane season he yéeldeth that the causes of Bishops who were subiecte to any other Patriarke must not be referred to the Popes See Whereby it is euident that not all their causes through the whole world were claimed by S. Gregorie And herewithal by this place it may be noted too that when he nameth the See and Church of Rome the head of all Churches he meaneth it of excellencie for sundrie giftes aboue them not of the supremacie for power to gouerne them Which answereth the question that you made before vpoÌ„ the same title If the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops For the name of head is geuen to that Church in respect of others as if the citie of London shoulde bée called in England the head of all cities The Lord Mayor of London might chauÌ„ce to haue a fauourer who would aske thereon If the citie of London be the head of all cities why not the Mayor of London the head of all Mayors But I knowe no Mayor so simple in England that vpon this sophisme would yéelde himselfe a subiect to the Lord Mayor of London Hart. Yet your selues grant yâ— Zosimus Boniface Caelestinus did claime the right of appeales to be made to theÌ„ in the causes of Bishops through the whole world Who being Popes before Gregorie almost two hundred yeares it followeth that they of the second sort did auouch as much for the Popes supremacie in iudging Church-causes as their successours of the last doe which you denied Rainoldes And I denie it still neither doth that proue it For the last sort claimeth al the greater causes of the church Wherein they comprehend not only the causes of Bishops and the Clergie but of all estates as many as doe fall within the reserued cases as they call them And because these cases by the ancient Councels should be all determined within their ownâ— Prouinces not referred to Rome therefore no Councel may prescribe a law they say to bind them But the other whom you named of the second sort did neither take vpon them such power ouer Councels nor claime appeales in causes of any but of Bishops or Clergie at the most As for the cases which Popes reserue now from ordinarie Iudges to their owne Eschequer the seconde sort of Popes was so farre from doing it that they were in their graues many hundred yeares before the sent thereof was felt Wherefore you ouerreachâ—d your selfe M. Hart when you sayde that the Bishop of Rome hath alwayes vsed the practise of the supremacie For it is apparant by this which I haue shewed that not one of them for the space of sixe hundred yeares after Christ did euer either vse it or claime it as his right Hart. Yes they hearde the causes of Clergie-men appealing to them and held that they might doe so Wherefore they claimed the supremacie and vsed it too Rainoldes Which reason is as good as if a Kentish Gentleman should say that all the Countie of Kent is his own because he hath a Lordship in the Weald of Kent Hart. What doe you accounte it so small a matter that Clergie-men yea Bishops shoulde appeale to them out of all prouinces through the whole world Rainoldes A goodly Lordship and large But nothing so large as the Weald of Kent much lesse as all Kent There are many Lordships mo within the Countie which the auncient Popes neither had nor claimed One Lordship of being subiecte to no man no not to the Emperour An other of hauing power ouer Princes to excommunicate and depose them An other of binding Bishops Metropolitanes and Patriarkes with an oth to be their faythful subiects An other of giuing Church-liuings and offices vnto whom they list An other of breaking the bandes of al Councels with dispensations and decrées An other of reseruing cases to their Sée Whereof to passe the rest which you may finde recorded in their Rolles and Chancerie sith they neither chalenged nor
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
hath ether mo Bishops or as many as al other nations haue For euery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there And these buggage-Bishops of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations did allow that doctrine Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vnto it For the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie made at Rome and published for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent doth shew that there was some sticking at the matter And your stories note that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels leaft they should hurt his State and commeth like a beare to the stake as they say when he is drawne to summon them What a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward And while the Councell lasted he kept good rule at Rome but brake loose whē it was ended Besides it being ended twentie yeares ago there hath bene none since nether I beléeue is like to be in hast Where yet there should be one euery ten yeres by their own decrée All euident tokens that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnder him like not his supremacie and would cut it shorter if they might haue power and autoritie to do it Which if they would do though being sworne to maintaine it yea and to maintaine the reseruations the prouisions other excesses of it is it not manifest that they disallow it or detest it rather Hart. Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ till King Harries dayes when heresie did roote it out Rainoldes Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope long after S. Gregorie for S. Gregories sake and honoured him aboue all Bishops But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer thē in giuing Church-liuings and handling Church-causes and executing Church-censures they were so farre frō liking it that they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago Euen in Queene Maries time when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnder King Henrie the eigth they prouided that hée should haue no more but that stoompe kept the former lawes in force against him still Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour some of power too yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasiō as our neighbours of Fraunce Germanie For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie by supplications complaints offered to their Princes Yea Fraunce made lawes against it which might haue continued had not the Gentiles raged broken the bands a sunder And these of whose iudgements I haue spoken hitherto are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians The rest Christians also though you cal them heretikes and schismatikes yet Christians the Churches of Greece and Asia in the East in the North of Moscouie in the South of Aethiopia in the West of Boheme Prouince Piemont heretofore the reformed Churches that are at this day in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie Flaunders Suitzerland and so foorth throughout Europe set lesse by the Pope then the former did That I might say iustly that except the crew of the Italian factiō wherein I comprehend the Iesuites and their complices men Italianate al Christian Churches haue condemned the Popes supremacie do till this day Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men so many thousandes of them Pastours and Doctours Synodes and Coūcels Uniuersities and Churches through all ages in all countries of al sorts and states might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie At least they might make you to blush M. Hart who haue sayd in writing that all men did grant it him without resistance it was neuer denied him But sith it must be tried by the word of God and it is not writen in the booke of life I conclude that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem but a child of Babylon which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones And thus haue I shewed that the former point on which you refuse to communicate with vs in prayers and religion ought to bring you rather to vs then draw you from vs. It remaineth now that we sift the later of the faith professed in the Church of England Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith as in truth it will then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it HART Nay first why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope and giue it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it Rainoldes The supremacie which we take from the Pope M. Hart we giue to no mortall creature Prince nor other But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right part of Princes part of Bishops part of peoples Churches as the chough in Aesope did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes the feather which the Romish chough had of our Princes we haue taken from him and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged according to the lesson of our heauenly Master Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods Hart. It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall But this is the supremacie which you giue our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth Therfore you giue the Prince more thē i◠the Princes Rainoldes To haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall But it is Caesars right to haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions Therefore that is the Princes which we giue the Prince Hart. The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man not God For nether he nor any of the rulers vnder him may deale in them both Rainoldes They may For the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill and praise them that doe well But the euill to be punished and the good to be praised compriseth all duties not only towardes man but towards
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
is called into question euery knée must bow in heauen in earth and vnder the earth and yéeld it vnto him whom God hath set at his right hand aboue all powers and principalities Wherefore I say not if a maÌ„ if Leo whom hope of profit might blind taking himselfe for Peters heire but if an Angell from heauen do giue it vnto Peter shall I say with the Apostle Let him be accursed I will not take on me that sentence but this I will say the sinne is verie heinous How much more heinous that it is pretended in shew vnto Peter in déede by Peters name conueied to the Pope For as boldly as Leo applieth it to Peter so boldly doth a Cardinall apply it to the Pope And a Bishop venturing further then the Cardinall not content to vouch that the Pope is Melchisedec excelling the rest incoÌ„parably in priesthood affirmeth farther of him that he is head of all Bishops from whom they do grow as members grow from the head and of whose fulnesse they do all receiue Of Christ it is written that of his fulnesse we do all receiue that he is a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedec that he is the head of whom al the bodie being coupled and knit togither by euerie ioint giuen to furnish it through the effectuall power in the measure of euerie part receiueth encrease of the bodie But to giue these priuiledges vnto the Pope that he is Melchisedec the head of al Bishops and of his fulnesse they doe all receiue O Lord in how miserable state was the Church when this did go for catholike doctrine Was not the prophecie then fulfilled of the man who should sit in the Temple of God as God Hart. I maruell what you meane to take vs vp so sharply as for a heinous matter that we call the Pope head of the church whereas you giue that title your selues to the Quéene whom it may lesse agrée to So one that preached to vs hâ—re not long agoe in the Tower-chappell did make a long talke to proue that Christ onely is head of the church and charged vs with blasphemy for saying that the Pope is head yet him selfe praying for the Quéenes maiesty did name her supreme head of the church of England wherin we smiled at his folly For if it be no blasphemy to call the Quéene head why should it bée blasphemy to call the Pope head Rainoldes We giue vnto her Highnes the title not of head but of Supreme gouernour and that vpon how iust grounde of Gods word and high commission from the highest it shall in due place be shewed if you will As for the Preacher whom you mention I had rather you would deale with me by publike monuments and writings of our church as I doe with you then by reports of priuate spéeches for perhaps you fansied more then he said perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fansie But if your report of his Sermon be true it is likely that he gaue the name of head to the Quéene in the same meaning that we doe the title of supreme gouernour which I will proue to be godly and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning in which that name belongeth vnto Christ alone condemning them of blasphemy who giue it him so And they who did smile hereat as at folly because they were Papists might if they were Painims smile at the scriptures too which doe giue the title of Gods vnto gouernors and yet condemne them who haue other Gods beside the Lord. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods why should it bée blasphemy to call Mercurius and Iupiter Gods Is not this your reason But our doctrine as it is holy and true so it is plaine if men will rather learne it humbly as Christians then laugh at it as Lucians or as Iulians reuolt from it For wée teach that Christ is the head of the church as hee doth quicken it with his spirite as he is the light the health the life of it and is present alwayes to fill it with his blessinges and with his grace to gouerne it In the which respects because the Scripture giueth the name of head to Christ alone by an excellency thereof we so conclude that he is the onely head of the church For otherwise we know that in an other kinde and degrée of resemblance they may be called heads who haue any preeminence of place or gouernment ouer others As in the Hebrue text we reade the heads of the Leuites for the chéefe of them and the priest the head that is to say the chiefe Priest After the which sort I will not contend if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches as Athanasius doth and Gregorie when he had named our Sauiour Christ the head of the vniuersall church hée calleth Christes ministers as it were heads Paul Andrew Iohn heads of particular flocks yet members of the church all vnder one head Hart. You graunt in effect as much as I require For if either Bishoppe or Cardinall haue giuen that vnto the Pope which is due to Christ as he is head properlie wée maintaine them not UUe say that as pastors all who haue the charge to gouerne the church are heads after a sort that is improperly as I termed it so the Pope who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head And in this sense you must take vs when we do entitle the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church Rainoldes I will take you so Howbeit for as much as the name of head hath sundrie significations in this kind of spéeches as the scripture sheweth God is the head of Christ Christ is the head of man man is the head of the woman the head of Syria Damascus the head of Damascus Retzin the king the head of the tribes of Israel and the heads of housholdes the eldest and the head of the people the formost and the head of the mountaines the highest and the head of the spices the chiefest in offenders the heads the principall and amongst Dauids captaines the heads the most excellent some of the which import a preeminence of other things not of power and they that do of power some import a greater power some a lesser I would vnderstand particularlie what power you giue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head least afterward we vary about the meaning of it Hart. The power which we meane to him by this title is that the gouernement of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him in him doth lye the power of iudging and determining all causes of faith of ruling councels as President and ratifying their decrées of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors of deciding causes brought him by appeales from
the lesser it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene Austin and Ierom concerning the reproofe of Peter whether Paule rebuked him in earnest as blameworthie or dissembled with him and made a duetifull lie which Ierom termed an honest policie For your selues graunt that Austin who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest did iudge therin more soundly truely then Ierom did who thought that he dissembled Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Whereupon S. Austin replyed that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side if he had read much But I saith he haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him do I flie to him I appeale from all the Doctors his interpreters who are of other mindes Of him do I aske whereas he writeth to the Galatians that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell and that hee withstood him to his face for it bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes whether he wrote true or did lye perhaps with I know not what politike falshood And I do heare him a litle before making a very religious protestation in the beginning of the same discourse The thynges whych I write vnto you beholde I witnes before God I lye not Let them who are of other mindes pardon me I beleeue rather so great an Apostle swearing in his owne and for his owne words then anie man be he neuer so learned talking of the words of an other A wise and frée iudgement worthie of S. Austin Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures is but a leaden rule not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by for building of the Lords temple Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers and refuse their iudgement But that as Torrensis hath obserued well must bee with two cautions One that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth The other that we do it with reuerence and modestie Rainoldes UUith reuerence and modestie God forbid else As Elihu reproued Iob as Paule reproued Peter But for the other caution how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth Hart. Oneâ—way to know it and that a good way is the common testimonie of the faithfull people if they with one consent beleeue it to be true Rainoldes This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures For things may be true and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them As it is plaine in places that haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes But let it be a good way UUhat if the faithfull people doo dissent As in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy the people of the east church dissented from the west many hundred yeares together UUhat shall we doo then Hart. Then an other way a better way to finde it is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors if they doo decrée it in a generall councell As for the Popes supremacy they did in the Councell of Lateran Rainoldes The Bishops of the east church say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also as it is noted on your law But here the former difficulties méete vs againe and bréede the same perplexitie For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest Againe although you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions Lastly generall Councels may dissent too as heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of as our conference will shew you sée that you haue not yet resolued me One question I must aske you more In this case when Councels say nothing of Scriptures or misapply them in proofes or dissent in conclusions what are we to doo Hart. If Councels dissent we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head And to answere all your questions in a word whether with the Councels or without the Councels that which the Head determineth is a knowne truth that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour Rainoldes You meane by the Head not our Sauior Christ but the Pope I trow Hart. I the visible head Rainoldes Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke So that to bring it to the point in controuersie whereas our question is whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church you say He is so UUhen we sift the matter and séeke the reasons why this is the summe of all Because him selfe saith so I thought that the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope Hée is the churches husband belike and in matters of law dealeth for her I cannot blame you though you be content to make him your iudge too For if he giue sentence in this cause against you I will neuer trust him Hart. You doo gather more of mine answers then I meant I pray make your owne collections and not mine Rainoldes I doo gather nothing but that which you haue scattered For you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture The wordes we agrée decide by the sense the sense must be tried you say by the Fathers the Fathers by the truth the truth by the people the people by the Councels the Councels by the Pope If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere you would sport your selues with it and call it a Circulation and cry against our impudency whoope at it like stage players But you may daunse such roundes and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations rounds as you call them I say no more but this that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise then the last meane to resolue vs of it is the Popes authoritie But there néeded not so much adoo hereof if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie whereof we talked to S. Peter Rainoldes You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him but by the word of Christ which is the holie scripture And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense not in
they breake it Hart. Christ by singular priuiledge did exempt them from it Rainoldes Then there was a law which did bind them to it Hart. What else For they should haue done it though they did it not Rainoldes Should that they did not How doo you proue it Hart. Because an order must be set which should be kept by the posteritie Rainoldes An order For whom For Apostles you graunt that man might not ordaine them For Bishops other men did ordaine them as rightfully as Peter did But you had rather make this shew of an answere then say that which you should say in truth I cannot tell For you deale with vs as Erucius did with Roscius whom when hee accused that he had killed his father because his father purposed to disinherit him Thou must proue saith Tully that his father did purpose it The father did purpose to disinherite his sonne For what cause I know not Did he disinherite him No. Who did hinder it He did mind it Did he mind it Whom told he so No bodie Your answeres vnto me are very like to these but somewhat more vnorderly For to ground the Popes supremacie on Peter you said that the Apostles did all receiue their power at least their bishoply power of him You must make it manifest that they did so All the Apostles were to receiue their power of Peter What scripture saith so I know not Did they receiue it No. Who did hinder it They should haue done it Should they haue done it How proue ye it I can not tell I may not say of you as Tully of Erucius What is it else to abuse the lawes and iudgements and maiestie of the iudges to lucre and to lust then so to accuse and to obiect that which you not onely can not proue but do not as much as endeuour to proue it For I must beare you witnes you endeuour to proue it But you shall do better to surcease that endeuour vnlesse your proofes be sounder and haue not onely shew but also weight of trueth in them The third Chapter The performance which Christ is supposed to haue made of the supremacie promised 1 in saying to Peter Feede my lambes feede my sheepe 2 and Strengthen thy brethren With the circumstances of the pointes thereof Doost thou loue me and I haue prayed for thee Peter What and how they make for Peter how for all HART The promise made to Peter hath not onely shew but also weight of truth to proue his supremacie But to satisfy you who thinke it not weightie enough of it selfe I will adde thereto the performance of it and so you shall haue it weight with the aduantage For it was said to Peter in the presence of three Apostles Iames Iohn and Thomas by our Sauiour Christ euen at the very moment when he would now ascend vp vnto his father and therefore either then or neuer make his vicar Pasce agnos meos pasce oues meas Fede my lambes fede my sheepe Rainoldes Not at the very moment That is the aduantage I wéene which you will adde to make vp the weight as some adde eare-wax to light angels But the wordes were spoken what do you gather of them Hart. Christ in those wordes did truely performe the promise of the keyes which he had made to Peter But Christ gaue him commission to féede his whole flocke without exception of any Therefore he made him supreme head of the Apostles Rainoldes This reason doth séeme to be sicke of the palsie The sinewes of it haue no strength Hart. Why so Rainoldes Because in the charge of feeding sheepe and lambes neither was the commission giuen vnto Peter and if it were yet no more was committed to him then to the rest of the Apostles and if more yet not so much as should make him their supreme head Hart. If you proue the second of these thrée pointes the other two are superfluous Rainoldes They are so But you shall haue weight with aduantage to ouerwaigh your weight to vs ward And for the first I haue alreadie shewed that the commission which Christ gaue to Peter he had giuen it him before when he said As my father sent me so do I send you Receiue the holie Ghost Whose sins soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Hart. But Christ gaue him not so much at that time as hée had promised him Wherefore part of his promise being performed then part was performed after then as much as he had ioyntly with the Apostles after that he had ouer them Rainoldes This is your bulwarke of Peters supremacie but it is builded on a lye For all that Christ had promised him was implied in that he had said To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Was it not Hart. It was so what then Rainoldes But in this commission sending him with ful authoritie and power he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen In this commission therefore he gaue him all that he had promised Hart. I deny that he gaue him all the keyes in this commission Rainoldes I proue it All the keyes as it hath appeared by your owne confession are onely too the key of knowledge and of power or rather both of power by Thomas of Aquines iudgement whom you rather follow But Christ gaue him both those in this commission As my Father sent me so doo I send you Receiue the holie Ghost Wherefore in this commission he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen And whatsoeuer keyes he gaue him in this he gaue the same to all the rest of the Apostles He gaue as much authoritie therefore to them all as he gaue to Peter But that is the next point Hart. Yet they receiued afterward the holie Ghost from heauen in the day of Pentecost And therefore they receiued not their whole commission of Christ at this time they wayted for a part of it Rainoldes Yes it was a part of their commission so to waite For as it is further declared by S. Luke when their vnderstanding was opened by Christ that they might vnderstād the scriptures he commanded them to stay in Ierusalem vntill they were indued with power from an high A King who putteth men in commission of peace doth giue them authoritie to execute that charge by the wordes of his commission If they perhaps haue not such wealth as is requisite for Iustices of peace to discharge their duetie and the King will giue them landes by such a day thereby to furnish them vnto it they receiue by their landes not authoritie which they had but abilitie which they wanted and the better they are landed the more are they inabled but not the more authorized to execute their duetie Christ the King of Kings did put his Apostles in the commission of peace of heauenly peace not
know that the misticall senses of the scripture are of no strength to conuince an aduersarie But the literall sense of that which I alleaged doth proue the point in question For there lyeth often times within the literall an other sense hidden which is not directly vttered and plainely but is gathered and inferred by the force of argument As for example God said to comfort Moses and the Israelites I am the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob These wordes in the first sense doo signifie the couenant that God made with Abraham and with Abrahams seede whom hée chose to be his seruants and promised he would bée their God But Christ alleageth them to proue against the Sadduces the resurrectioÌ„ of the dead Which he doth conclude by consequeÌ„ce of reason God is not the God of the dead but of the liuing He is the God of Abraham Therefore Abraham is not dead Abraham is a man consisting of two partes the soule and the bodie If Abraham then liue and yet his bodie be dead his bodie must rise againe to the end that God may iustly be called the God not of Abrahams soule but of Abraham Wherefore in that God is called the God of Abraham it followeth by discourse that the bodies of men shall bée raysed from death to life Is not this reason conteined in the literall sense of the scripture from which it is deduced Rainoldes Yes and is of force to proue the point in controuersie For whatsoeuer followeth necessarily of the literall sense that is as true and sound as the sense whereof it followeth But how will you gather so the Popes supremacie from the place in Deuteronomie Hart. By a reason which I ground vpon the likenes and proportion of the Church of Christ to the children of Israell For if the Israelites had a high Priest to be their iudge in matters of difficultie and doubt betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague why should not we semblably haue a hie Priest to bée the iudge in our causes Rainoldes This reasoÌ„ is drawn from a similitude that as it was amongst the Iewes in the olde Testament so must it bée amongst Christians in the new Logicians say that similitudes do halt of one foote But this doth halt of both For neither was the high Priest amongst the Iewes iudge of all those matters nether doth it follow thereof although he had béene that amongst Christians there must a high priest bée likewise iudge of all Els it must be lawfull for all your priestes to marry For it was so amongst the Iewes And Masse must be be saide no where but at Rome For the Iewes might not sacrifice but in the place which the Lord had chosen And all the males amongst the Iewes must goe thither euery yeare thrise Which were ouermuch for all your males to Rome Yet must they doo it by your reason For it is written in Deuteronomie And because Deuteronomie is the second law by interpretation the force of the word proueth that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the new Testament saith Pope Innocentius Hart. The condicion of Christians is not in all respectes like vnto the Iewes nor Rome vnto Ierusalem And why it is not like in the matters which you mention there may bée reasons giuen Rainoldes May there be reasons giuen Then reasons may be giuen why your reason is naught But that you may sée what a lame thing it is marke the pointes whereon it standeth First the high Priest you say is the iudge to whom for the deciding of hard and doubtfull controuersies the Lord doth send the Iewes This the scripture saith not but maketh a difference betwéene the iudge and the Priest For it giueth sentence of death vpon him who refuseth to harken to the Priest or to the iudge Wherein by disioyning the Priest from the iudge it declareth plainely that the Priest was not the same that the iudge Hart. Our commoÌ„ editioÌ„ in Latin doth not reade it so but in this sort he that shal presumptuously refuse to obey the coÌ„mandement of the Priest by the decree of the iudge shall that man die You sée it is here the commandement of the Priest the decree of the iudge is an other point It is not as you cite it the Priest or the iudge Rainoldes It is not so in your Latin which man hath translated But it is so in the Hebrew writen by the Spirite of God Hart. But we haue a decree of the Councell of Trent that our old and common edition in Latin shall be taken as authenticall in publike lectures disputations sermons and expositions and that no man may dare or presume to reiect it vnder any pretense If no man may reiect it vnder anye pretense then not vnder pretense of the Hebrew text And that for great reason For the Hebrewe Bibles which are extant now are shamefully corrupted in many places by the Iewes of spite and malice against Christians as Bishop Lindan sheweth largely and learnedly in the defense of that decrée of the TreÌ„t-councell Rainoldes This is a shamefull sclaunder brewed by Satan and set a broch by Lindan to the intent that errours which haue preuailed in Poperie either by the faulte of the Latin translator or by the ouer sighte of them who haue mistaken him should not be discouered and put to shame by the light of the Hebrew truth And this shall appeere by his arguments and dealings if you will sift them in particular If in generall onely you meane to vse his name to discredite the truth as your Doctor doth I will send both you and him for an answere to three of the learnedst and fittest iudges of this matter that your church hath euen Isaac Leuita Arias Montanus and Payua Andradius Of whom the first being Lindans owne maister and professor of the Hebrue tongue in the vniuersitie of Coolen hath writen three bookes in defense of the Hebrew truth against the cauils of his scholler The next for his rare skill of tongues and artes was put in trust by king Philip to set forth the Bible in Hebrew Chaldee Greeke and Latin wherein he hath reproued that treatise of Lindan and disclosed his folly The last was the chiefest of the Diuines and Doctors at the Councell of Trent The decrées wherof though he haue defended and namely that which you mention yet not so but he hath withall conâ—uted them who say that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text Your cause M. Hart beginneth to be desperate when it can finde no coouert but such as your owne patrones are ashamed off Hart. I haue not read thâ—se mens discourses But certainely what soeuer they say for the rest neither they nor you shall be euer able to proue that the Iewes haue not corrupted the Hebrew tâ—xt in the one and twentéeth Psalme or
two and twentéeth as they number it For where it should be read as our Latin hath it and the Greeke also they haue pearced my hands and my feete the Hebrues now do reade not Caaru that is they haue pearced but Caari that is as a Lion as a Lion my hands and my feete Whereby a notable prophecie describing so plainely the maner and kind of the passion of Christ should bée taken out of our hands through the trechery of the Iewes if wée should folow the Hebrew text as it is now But it is so manifestly knowne to be corrupted that your selues though allowing the Hebrew as authenticall yet folowe it not in this place in your English Bibles Rainoldes This is the onely argument that Lindan hath of any shew to proue that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text But if it be weighed with an euen ballance you shall find it a meere cauill For what will you say of your owne selues Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis where it is read of the woman she shall bruse thy head for that which should be read of thewomans séed he shall bruse thy head Hart. Some of your men say so But they do great iniury to the Church therin Rainoldes They haue as great cause at least if not greater to say this of Romanistes as you the other of the Iewes For if we match the prophecies this is more notable which is corrupted in your Latin of the victorie of Christ ouer Satan and ours through him If we compare errors this is more manifest in so much that it is proued to be an error euen by Lindan also not onely by others and the Hebrue text with the Chaldee paraphrase and the Greeke translation do all make against it as the Diuines of Louan graunt Hart. But this might créepe in by some humane ouersight or negligence of scriueners as sundry such errours haue crept in to writen bookes of all sortes euen in the best copies The words ipsa and ipse in which the variance lyeth doo not so greatly differ but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other Rainoldes No more do the wordes Caaru Caari The differēce is as smal Wherfore if the one might be an ouersight of scriueners in the Latin as you say and truely why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew as it is gessed by Andradius And that it was so it is declared at large by Arias Montanus who for his singular knowledge and iudgement both in artes and tongues was chosen as I said to ouersée the setting foorth of that famous Bible in Hebrewe Chaldee Greeke and Latin which was printed at Anwerpe with the approbation of your Popes and Doctors For in the sixth tome of that worke he sheweth that when the Iewes returned into their countrey after their captiuitie of seuentie yeares in Babylon it befell vnto them partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their mindes partly by corruption of their natiue tongue which was growne out of kind first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake that they neither knewe nor pronounced so wel the words of the scripture writen as the maner was without vowels Whereby it came to passe that in the writing of them their crept in some faulte either through iniury of the times or by reason of troubles which fell vpon the people or by negligence of some scriueners But this inconuenience was met withall afterward by most learned men such as Esdras was and afterward Gamaliel Ioseus Eleazar and other of great name who prouided by common trauell with great care and industry that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof should be preserued most sound and vncorrupt And from these men or from their instruction being receaued and poolished by their scholers in the ages folowing there came saith he as we iudge that most profitable treasure which is called Masoreth that is to say a deliuery because it doth deliuer aboundantly and faithfully all the diuers readings that euer were of the Hebrewe Bibles Wherein there appeareth an euident token of the prouidence of God for the preseruation of the sacred bookes of scripture whole and sound that the Masóreth hath beene kept till our time these many hundred yeares with such care and diligence that in sundry copies of it which haue bene writen no difference was euer found and it hath beene added in all the writen Bibles that are in Europe Afrike or Asia each of them agreing throughly therein with other euen as it is printed in the Venice-bibles to the great wonder of them who reade it Now in this Masoreth made so long ago so diligently writen so faithfully kept in so many countryes through so many ages as Arias Montanus witnesseth the Iewes them selues acknowledge by their owne testimonie that where in common bookes it is read Caari in certaine it is Caaru Wherefore if some Iewish scriueners who wrote out bookes depraued it of malice and spite which might be though they who accuse them doo bring neither autour nor time nor any sure argument to proue it but if some depraued it yet séeing their Masôreth doth note the diuerse reading and in part doth iustifie that which is the truer it is hard to charge them as you doo with corrupting of the Hebrewe text Much harder then if we should charge your Romish church with corrupting of the Latin where you read ipsa in stéed of ipse not he but she shall bruse thy head Hart. Not so for we haue kept also that reading ipse euen in our vulgar Latin translation For the Diuines of Louan do note that it is found in two writen copies And we do confesse it to be more agréeable both to the Hebrewe text and the Chaldee paraphrase the Greeke translation yea that S. Ierom read it so too as you may see in the Notations of Franciscus Lucas to which our latin Bibles set forth by the Diuines of Louan doo referre you Rainoldes Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it and saith that all the Latin copies which they could finde doo read it ipsa and of the two which you mention he doubteth whether one did folow the Latin or the Hebrewe and hee maketh shew of proofe that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin with a litle hammering of it Yea and that is more as in al the Bibles that I haue séene of yours the Latin hath ipsa not ipse shee not he though your greatest frends haue wished you forshame to mēd it so in an Hebrue text of the famous Bible of king Philip which but now I mētioned the word he is altered according to the latin shee and that not of errour but of purpose as it is witnessed by Franciscus Lucas Which is greater boldnes in corrupting the Hebrue thē you can
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
of Constantine as you would haue vs to imagin Their meaning was onely to shew that the Canons which are called the Canons of the sixth Councell were made by other Bishops in the time of Iustinian long after that Councell and therefore are falsly fathered vpon that Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons whosoeuer made them Rainoldes He is not as much as named in any of them saue onely in the first where they who named him haue named him so that both they haue seuered them selues from the sixth Councell by which he was condemned and haue encreased the credit of it For they recken him amongst the heads of the Monotheliâ—es and say of them all that the sixth Councell did condemne them iustly Hart. That Canon sauoureth of corruption which speaketh so of Pope Honorius Rainoldes So. What say you then to the sixth generall Councell it seâ—fe They doo speake of him a great deale more bittâ—rly reprouing his doctâ—ine as the doctrine of heretikes false wicked pestilent Nor thinking it enough to condemne his doctrine they curse his name and person also Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general councel are corrupted Rainoldes The sixth generall Councell hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretikes in eightene actions as they are termed In the first action the eight and the eleuenth the heretikes alleage in their owne defense that Pope Honorius taught as they doo In the twelfth and thirtenth his writinges are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the sixtenth seuententh and eightenth the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel Thinke you that the copies of the actions of the Councell are corrupted in all those places Hart. In all in which Honorius is condemned or cursed Rainoldes What and that those places are corrupted in all copies and that without difference all after one sort al with the same wordes Hart. All why not is that impossible Rainoldes Not impossible yet improbable But the seuenth generall Councell which you esâ—éeme so greatly for their defense of image-worship this seuenth doth make no better account of Honorius Hart. The seuenth generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But in the eight general Councel there is rehersed a spéech of Adrian the Pope which he had vttered in a councell assembled by himselfe In that he affirmeth that the Bishops of the east did condemne Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome Hart. The eight generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But Leo the second who was Pope then when the sixth Councell was ended doth namely confirme this point with these wordes we accurse Honorius who hath not lightned this Apostolike Church with Apostolike doctrine but by wicked treacherie hath labored to subuert the vndefiled faith Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too Rainoldes But many other learned both Gréeke and Latin autors Beda Psellus Vmbertus Balsamon Marianus Scotus Tharasius and the easterne bishops yea your owne Pontificall of the Popes liues make reporte of it Hart. What néedeth this adoo It is all answered by Father Robert in a word For either these autors are corrupted them selues or they were deceiued by the copies of the sixth councell being corrupted Rainoldes The saying of Tully I sée is verie true He that is once gone beyond the boundes of modestie must lustily be impudent Albertus Pighius an Archpapist intending to proue in his bookes of the holy princehood of the Church that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the soueraine iudge of all Christians whom they are bound to heare and folow because it was absurd he thought and very daungerous to attribute so great a power to one man vnles the man were such as might not erre in faith therefore he tooke vpon him to bring in this doctrine that the praier of Christ for Peters faith not to faile doth priuilege the Pope from falling into any heresie Whereupon as in generall he denied that the Pope may be an heretike though all Diuines and Canonistes by his confession graunt it so to clense Honorius thereof in particular hée said that the copies of the sixth Councell which made against him were corrupted This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by lerned men of his own side in so much that one of them reproued him for it in a publike assembly wisht him to recant it They alleaged against him that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretike by two generall Councels the sixth and the seuenth wherofthe authoritie ought to be held as sacred But Pighius was so farre from being moued therewith that he wrote a new treatise against those two Councels affirming them to be corrupted and in heat of zeale for the Popes quarell he called the sixth Councell a most cursed Councell Here the Councels case and perill that was like to fall on all autours if such hot heads might make such desperate answeres did stirre vp the spirite of Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius whom he hath confuted and proued that Honorius was in deede an heretike condemned by the Councell iustly Sith the which time though Hosius a Cardinall and Onuphrius a Fryer men of hard foreheads haue taken Pighius part yet neither haue they strengthned the reasons of Pighius shaken in péeces by Torrensis and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound namely Iouerius Canus Andradius and Alfonsus a Castro haue shewed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both Yea â—ur countriman Harding who would not graunt so much of any other Pope yet graunted of Honorius that he may be iustly burdened with heresie and fell in deede into it But now behold a newe gamster a Iesuit Father Robert doth set vpon the matter fresh and teacheth in his solemne lectures at Rome that it is true the Pope may be an heretike marry it is probable and godly to be thought that he cannot be an heretike A straunge resolution and fitte for a Iesuit Yet to shew how probable he can make that seeme which he confesseth to be false by holding the contrarie therof to be true he saith somewhat for euery one of those Popes that are charged with heresie and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently then Pighius himselfe For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth or seuenth Councell onely but all that come in his way Councels Popes Grâ—ekes Latins Historians Diuines either they are corrupted or abused by corruption Well may the opinion which Father Robert saith for be probable false both But this of Honorius by which he would confirme it is out of all doubt though false yet not probable Hart. It is probable enough as Father Robert handleth it For streames may be corrupted as easily as the fountaine
was taken for the peace safetie both of the countrie the State least the Emperours being absent out of Italie abiding at Constantinople the Pope whose autoritie was growen to be great if he should mislike the State or be factious might entise both Rome and Italie to reuolt from them to their enimies as Iustinian was perswaded that Pope Siluerius sought to doo This order continued vntill the yeare sixe hundred eightie and sixe about the which time the Emperour released the Pope from that bond But afterwarde the Pope did binde himselfe againe vnto it For in the yeare seuen hundred seuentie and thrée Pope Adrian the first gaue to Charles the greate the right and autoritie of choosing the Pope and ordering the Sée of Rome and he gaue it with consent of a Councell of Bishops not of his owne fansie The decreee of which Councell did stand in strength and vertue aboue a hundred yeares vntill the time of the fiftie Popes For in the yeare eight hundred eightie and fiue Pope Adrian the third made a contrarie decree to wéete that in creating of Popes they should not waite for the consent of the Emperour but the voices of the clergie and people should bée frée Neither had any Emperour that prerogatiue after till the yeare nine hundred sixtie and thrée when it was restored againe vnto Otho Now in the meane time the monsters came in Formosus Boniface Stephen Romanus Theodore Iohn the ninth Christopher Sergius and finally that monster of monsters Iohn the twelfth Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperour And yet to sée the spirite of a Popish zeale how it wilâ— besotte men Genebrard hauing writen that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the bodie of Formosus to be digged out of his graue and beheaded doth adde this note vpon it No maruell if these Popes were monstrous for they were not chosen after the maner of their ancestors but intruded by the Emperours Whereas your Chronicles shew that Sergius conspiring against his predecessour Christopher as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo did force him to renounce the Popedome on one day himselfe the next day did stall himâ—elfe in it So that not asmuch as the presence of the Emperours embassadours was stayed for at his consecration which yet by order should haue béene to hinder violence and offenses muâ—h lesse was he intruded as Genebrard saith by the Emperour But when Iohn the twelfth had gotten the roome then the which there could not a wretcheder thing possesse it vnlesse the diuell himselfe should hold it in person the Emperour Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order caused the Bishops of Italie with others and the Roman clergie to be assembled in a Councell Wherein after that they had deposed Iohn and chosen Leo the eigth all with one consent Pope Leo with the whole clergie and people of Rome did graunt vnto Otho and his successours for euer the power of choosing the Pope The cause which moued him to stablish this order was that no such monsters might sit in Peters seate as there had before For he considered that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperours and left it to the people and clergie the foule and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts the citie with tumults and the elections with vilanie He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way He thought no bridle fitter then that the decrée of Adrian the first who gaue the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperour should be reuiued And so he proposed the matter to the Councell and the Councell agréed vpon it Wherefore the former halfe of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperours If the later were whose was the faute the Emperours or the Popes and Councels who gaue the Emperour that right But in déed they were not For although the Romans had sworne to Otho that they would neuer choose Pope without his consent and his sonnes yet by and by they turned to their olde bent like a deceitfull bow Howbeit in his dayes they could not haue their purpose For when they cast out Leo and brought in Iohn againe and chose one after him too Otho by force of armes made them repent it and redressed it But in his sonnes dayes they went thorough with it His nephew had a stroak in the choise of one or two but they were of the better sorte It was the Romans choise that thrust the monsters in Of whom we may estéeme what the rest were by their head and taile Boniface and Benedict Boniface the seuenth who came in by briberie was cast out by violence went away with sacrilege made money of his Church-robberies and therewith got againe the Popedome Benedict the ninth who when he was throwne out for his vnworthinesse and Siuester placed in his stéede he by helpe of the faction which had made him Pope threw Siluester out againe and fearing that mens stomakes would not brooke him long they did so loth him and abhorre him hee set the Popedome to sale and Gregorie the sixth bought it These dealinges of Gregorie Siluester and Benedict thrée most vgly monsters as they are called by Platina stirred vp the Emperour Henrie the second to looke vnto the Church as Otho had done Whereupon when he was come into Italie Pope Gregorie went vnto him and offered him a pretious diademe to winne his fauour But he neuertheles assembled togither a Councell of Bishops who hauing examined the cause of Pope Gregorie found that mony made him Pope iudged him vnlawfully made so he was depriued for Simonie Then in consultation about a new Pope when the Romanes themselues did not name any the Emperour named a German Suidiger a Bishop commended for his skil vertue who being approued by them all was chosen Pope called Clemens By whom by an other Councell held at Rome the same power was giuen to Henrie againe for ordering of the Popedome that was before to Otho So neither did the Emperors intrude the later monsters of the fiftie Popes no more then the former For there is but one of the fiftie after Clemens and he none of the monsters though Genebrard make him one because the Emperour chose him nor had the Romanes néeded to haue béene troubled with him but that Clemens the German tooke some Italian drugs amongst them Nay the Emperours were so farre from intruding of monsters that they did extrude them and were the chiefest meanes to ridde the Church of them Which as it is euident by the whole course of their liues and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his storie of Italie no partiall man against the Popes doth beare
the Emperours this witnesse and layeth the blame of those monsters vpon the Romanes themselues The noble men saith he of Rome to aduaunce their owne priuate power corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged and thereby filled the Church almost two hundred yeares togither with grieuous seditions and shamefull euils and disorders These were the Marques Albert and Alberike his sonne a Consull the Earles of Thusculum they who were of their kinne or by their meanes had grown to wealth Who either bribing the people and clergie with money or spoiling them of the auncient libertie of the election by whatsoeuer other meanes preferred at their lust their kinsmen or frendes men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holines and good order For the repressing of whose outrage Pope Leo the eighth reuiued the law which had beene made by Adrian the first and repealed by the third that no Pope elected should vndertake the Popedome without the Emperours consent Which law being taken away by occasion that the roome was sought ambitiously in the citie and purchased by bribes the state of the Church was put againe in great daunger through the priuate lusts of the same factions To prouide therefore a remedie for these things Henrie the Emperour came into Italie as hereupon Sigonius sheweth And so you may sée the lewdnes of Genebrard that shamelesse parasite of the Popes who without all reuerence both of God and man doth raile lye and falsifie stories to deface the Emperours and crosse the writers of the Centuries For he saith that the Emperours did as wilde boares eate vp the vineyard of the Lord the stories say that they deliuered it from wilde boares The stories say that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romanes them selues he saith that they came in by intrusion of the Emperours The stories say that the Emperours who hunted out those beastes were vertuous and lawfull Princes he calleth them tyrants nor onely them but also many good Emperours moe who medled with the Popes election Finally the stories say that the Emperours were allowed by Popes and Councels to doo it he saith that they vsurped it by the right of Herode And yet him selfe recordeth and that in the same Chronicle too that Pope Adrian with a Councell Pope Leo with a Councell Pope Clemens with a Councell did graunt it vnto Charles Otho and Henrie the Emperours I haue read of an enuious man who was content to lose one of his owne eies that an other might lose both Genebrard is gone farther For he is content to put out both his owne eies that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs That they may acknowledge them selues to haue praysed the German Emperours vniustly hee graunteth both that Popes with Councels haue erred and that their succession wa◠broken off a great while Wherein if you say the same with him M. Hart I am glad of it But your felowes I feare me will not allow that you say if you allow that he saith Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off nor that the Popes may erre and Councels For as Genebrard taketh it Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes Rainoldes But Adrian the first was as Genebrard taketh it and that one of the best Popes Yet he did graunt as much to Charles the Emperour as Leo did to Otho as Clemens did to Henrie And if it be true that they were not Popes whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose then the Popes succession which is almost the onely eye of your Cyclops will be cleane put out by the deuise of this No-body And how shall the writings of our Countriemen Sanders Bristow and Rishton and such others do then who make the Popes succession the chiefest bulwarke of your Church a certaine marke that neuer faileth And what will No-body him selfe say to the third booke of his Chronicle where he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world Was this true when he wrote the third booke and was it false when he wrote the fourth Hart. D. Genebrard whom you shal proue to be some-body ere you haue done though you be flouting him with No-body doth shew by the one place his meaning in the other For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world it is plaine he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely and simply Wherefore in that he addeth about the fiftie Popes that the lawful succession was disordered then he meant that it was broken but in some sort as it were or to say the truth rather brused then broken not interrupted but disturbed For neither Genebrard saith nor any Catholike writer els but that the succession of Popes hath continued and shall vnto the end Rainoldes Then I mistooke his meaning touching the succession and yours touching the Popes For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes who were theeues and robbers Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely and simply that they were not Popes but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort they were crackt Popes as you would say and not sound or perhaps in truth rather crased then crackt Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes doth stand in force against them still For it is true as you said that they did not succeede lawfully Wherefore either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon but Simon the sorcerer and not Simon Peter Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions sake Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament through which the vnskilfull are most enamored of her Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours and thrust from his election first them then the people afterward the clergie brought it to a few Cardinals there haue bene as monstrous Popes as were before still I except Iohn and haue come in as vnlawfully Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church chiefely through the Emperours meanes before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at But things began to mend from that time of disorder For by the vertue of Leo the ninth and the Popes folowing that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth although with great sturres And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes elected lawfully no doubt Pius the fourth Pius the fifth and him who raigneth now Gregorie the
lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall For what saith S. Paul If any man haue not care of his owne and specially of his domesticals he hath denyed the faith and is worse then an infidell Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were the one of a Prince the other of a Bishop As a Prince he gouerneth his temporall dominion as a Bishop his spirituall His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ his temporall a part of it And so though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church yet his affaires spirituall which stretch through all Christendoom doo differ from his temporall which touch the Church of Rome chieflie For example Leo the ninth a verie good Pope aboue fiue hundred yeares since when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it but could not conquer them by curses he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes and met them in the field manfully At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome and claimed it to his own Sée Whereof when Pope Leo heard he sent thrée legats to Constantinople to root out that heresie Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince against the Normans who set vpon his temporall dominion with armes the later as Bishop against the Patriarke who taught heresie a point of his spirituall charge Affaires of this later sort let me name for difference sake the Church-affaires the former the affaires of state And so it shall appeere what iniurie you doo them whom spitefully you call Herodes For you say that the affaires which they are busied about are their affaires of state Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more to sée that the Catholike religion be taught that errors be suppressed to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops and parishes of able pastors to heare appeales determine causes receiue supplications excommunicate the wicked absolue the repentant to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church And may not these affaires so weightie in charge in number so manie bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires when they omit it for the Church Rainoldes I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians of whom they haue murdered more soules nay more thousands of soules in one countrie with their Herodian practises then Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion And this haue they doon by that prophane policie wherewith I iustlie charged them euen by pretending the Churches state to plant their owne and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement For vnder the coolour of binding and loosing the credit of forgiuing sinnes the title of S. Peters keyes their ordering of the whole Church and highest power in al church-Church-causes they haue raised vp the tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom and haue deuoured men as breade and sold the poore for siluer that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth The first and chiefest meanes whereby they finished this worke and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours was excommunication Which they not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure did racke it to a ciuill punishment remouing them not onelie from the communion of the faithfull but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes and putting them as from the Church so from the Empire too When Emperour Leo the third desirous to abolish the worship of Images which then was créeping in had caused them to be defaced and thereupon did punish some who withstood it Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute or obey him Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople and laid violent handes vpon his Deputies Lieutenants of whom they slew two and put out the eyes of the third By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing part of the countrie that rebelled was conquered by the king of Lombardie Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vnto the Pope So the Pope who till that time had béene a Bishop onely became a Prince by treason But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes Who entring into league with the king of Lombards they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie were not strong enough to make his partie good against them trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion he went out with a solemne procession vnto him and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul Princes of the Apostles who with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church and draw on him the vengeance of Peter and Paul he did intreate the king to giue the siege ouer and make the Deputie and him friendes Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects entending to reuolt from him did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince Pope Gregory the third and on the affiance thereof he rebelled The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes pursued the Duke to Rome The Pope not willing to deliuer the rebell nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it dealt as his predecessour had doon by supplication But finding the matter to be past intreatie and hoping for no aide in Italie hee sent to Charles Martell the king of Frances hye steward desiring him to helpe the church against the Lombard Which Charles by an embassage did raised the siege Now when Charles dyed his sonne named Pipine sucâ—ceded him in office who because Chilperike that was king then did no part of the kingly duty but left the charge and burden thereof vnto him he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie the Popes aduise was asked Pope Zacharie made answere that he who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather then he who did not execute it Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike About a two yeares after the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom
England did not amount The king though misliking the disorder greatly yet being loth to medle with the redresse of it for feare of the Pope the stripes of whose wrath against his father king Iohn against his coosen Otho the Emperour and Othos successour Fridericke the second were bleeding fresh before his eyes the Nobles and Commons sent a supplication to Pope Innocentius and the generall Councell assembled then at Lyons Wherein vpon complaint that an infinite number of Italians in England had the charge of flockes who neither fedde nor knew nor cared for their sheepe but receiued onely the fruites reuenues and caried them out of the realme that the yearely rents of Italians in England amounted to three score thousand markes and vpward besides diuers other auailes which they reaped where they sowed not that England hoped for some reliefe of these grieuances when Innocentius was made Pope but now it is oppressed more out of measure by the Popes legat who entring late into the land with larger power and commission then euer legate had doth exceede excessiuely he giueth to Italians some benefices alreadie voide worth thirtie markes or more yearely some that fall voide by the decease of Italians he thrusteth new Italians into some he doth prouide when they shall be voide to be reserued for Italians moreouer he wresteth out immoderate pensions from religious persons and vseth to excommunicate interdict of Church-seruice of sacraments of Christian buriall them who gainesay him and resist him vpon this complaint the Nobles and Commons of the realme of England made humble sute vnto his fatherhood that he wold extend the hand of mercy to his children ease them of those burdens of grieuances and oppressions detestable to God and men The messengers by whom this supplication was sent presented it before the Pope vnto the generall Councell To whom they made complaint withall of a clause in the Popes bulles called Non obstante by which hee brake all lawes and orders of the church to serue these his purposes For whatsoeuer made against the tenor of his bull he vsed to remoue it with a Non obstante As for example the Churches law and order confirmed by a Councell was that one man should haue but one benefice and none should haue any but he who could himselfe discharge the duetie personally The Pope sendeth forth his bulles for fiue Romans the sonne of Rumfrede and such and such that they shall be prouided for of so many benefices as may be worth to each of them a hundred pounde yearely Non obstante that law Pope Innocent was grieued at this supplication and complaint of England which touched his supremacie so néere to the quicke Howbeit for the present hee made them faire promises and sent them sundry priuileges from the Councell of Lyons that Patrones thenceforth should freely presente and Bishops should admitte fit persons to benefices who would and could well serue the charge that the Clerke of his Escheker that was his legate should prouide but for twelue moe without consent of the Patrones that if English men would be studious honest and thankeful chiefely the sonnes of Noble men he would prouide for them also and dispense honorably with the worthiest of them for pluralitie of benefices finally that no Italian should immediately succeede an Italian which was obtained for their treacheries who when one that had a benefice was dead would foyst an other into his roome And these thinges were promised but they were promised onely For after that the Councell was dissolued once the Pope played the Pope and brake them all with Non obstante And as Pharao hardened his hart against Israel and laied more worke vpon them when they desired ease of bondage so did Innocent against England In so much that after sixe or seuen yeares when a vew was taken againe of the bricke made of our English Israel for the Italian Pharao the summe of those reuenues which before amounted to three score thousand marks was growne to three score thousand and ten with the aduantage Now if the outrage of this abominatâ—on were so monstrous in one realme what was it in all throughout the rest of Christendome If Popes did so exceede aboue three hundred yeares ago in the prime of their Papacie when the iointes of it were yet scarsely knit what is it likely they did after If by one policy they brought so great wealth vnto their Court and state yea by part of one applyed to furnish their Italians what may bee thought of the same applied to furnish the home-borne each in their owne countrie What of so many others some of them as fruitfull as this some more fruitfull What of their whole gouernment wherein they haue claimed a fulnes of power to doo what they list and they haue put their claime in practise What wordes may serue to vtter the spoiles which they haue made of the Church of Christ first by ordeining of the Church-officers in creating Bishops Archbishops Patriarkes and weauing palls for them in disanulling the elections of some who lawfully were chosen in graunting some who could not be chosen lawfully to haue the roomes by postulations in chopping and changing their persons from one Sée to an other by translations and their dioceses by diuisions in giuing pastours liuings away â—uer their heads by reuersions or aduowsons in shaping newe creatures Preaching Friers and Minorites and giuing them the power of pastours in dispensations with boyes dispensations with bastards dispensations with idiotes that they may haue the charge of soules dispensations with murderers with adulterers with Simoniaks that they may kepe their benefices dispensations for pluralities that one may haue twentie dispensations for non-residence that they néede neuer come vnto them to be short in reseruaes accesâ—es regresses coadiutories vnions preuentions permutations and a thousand such deuises belonging to the market of benefices and bishoprickes Secondly by dealing with the Church causes wherein they haue receyued appeales from all quarters that they might fish in troubled water they haue fetched persons a thousand miles off by citations to their consistorie they haue disturbed the peace and discipline of the Church by sending legates a latere by putting matters to their delegates by priuileging men from lawes and exempting inferiours from their superiours regiment they haue multiplied humaine decrees and made them snares to catch foules lawes that none shall mary in this or that degrée of carnall kinred or spirituall canons that men whose persons haue such or such a blemish shall not ascend to priestly orders vowes of pilgrimage of chastitie of pouertie of obedience of Nunrie Moonkry Fryery which all they haue released for money yea they haue released othes solemne othes and haue giuen licences to commit periurie they haue made sale of forgiuenes of sinnes and marchandize of mens soules they haue turned repentance
he knew and furnished with the treasures of the Popes librarie to know the best that might be saide yet after many floorishes for Constantines donation of the largest sise he addeth in conclusion that the Pope Gregorie the third did excommunicate Leo the Emperour and caused Rome and Italie to rebell against him absoluing all his subiectes from their oth of fealtie And so he confuteth the lye which himselfe and Genebrard doo build on that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperours but the Popes and graunteth by consequent that the Popes temporall dominion in Italie was vnlawfully gotten and wrongfully vsurped by this deuise of treason Hart. Nay Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope if these doo not content men For I saith he answere to heretikes impugning the donation of Constantine that which Iephte did in the eleuenth of Iudges to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to bee restored him we will possesse that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obteined Vnlesse perhaps thou canst shew that any man did striue about it for the space of three hundred yeares here for a thousand yeares and more Why so long time haue you attempted nothing for the recouerie of it Chiefly sith the prescription of certaine yeares sufficeth in groundes and possessions Moreouer the consent of Italie and of the Church and of the whole world is of force enough to giue the Pope that right Finally that Constantine remoued the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through Gods speciall prouidence to the end that the kingdome of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome it appeareth by this that straight the westerne Emperours Constans and the rest who folowed for certaine ages left Rome still and placed the seate of the westerne Empire at Milan or Rauenna and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius Michael and certaine others would haue brought it in againe to Rome but could not Wherefore howsoeuer the Popes dominion temporall began or whensoeuer it is sure that he hath right vnto it now Rainoldes The point that we reason of is not M. Hart what right he hath now but what wrong heretofore hee hath doone the Emperour to obteine this right Though neither can you proue his right by these reasons For that which Iephte spake of gotten by the Israelites they got by lawfull warre The Pope hath gotten his by vnlawfull treacherie And prescription holdeth not in thinges that are stollen and detained by force if you beleeue the law As for the thousand yeares and more which Genebrard addeth that no man stroue about it if he meane about Constantines donation no maruell if they stroue not about that which was not If he meane about that which Popes claime thereby it hath two vntruthes one that they haue helde it a thousand yeares and more an other that no man stroue with them about it For to passe ouer the Emperours before touched and namely Friderike the first the Romans them selues had many bickerings with them for the temporall rule and gouernment of the citie contending that the Pope should medle with the spirituall onely Whereby withall appeareth how vaine the bragge is of the consent of Italie the church and the whole world Though neither their consent can giue the Pope that right vnlesse the Roman Emperours the right owners of it do consent also And how they consent you may learne by late Emperours of whom one desired to recouer Rome and all the Popes dominion as being his of right an other did more then desire i◠or rather by late Popes who are afraide of nothing more then of the Emperours comming into Italie Now the last reason of Gods speciall prouidence remouing the seate of the westerne Empire to Constantinople to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome beside that it is seasoned after Genebrards maner with vntruth of storie as that the western Emperours who succeeded Constantine for certaine ages left Rome still which is disproued by Honorius it wresteth Gods worde to the maintenance of mans pride For the Churches kingdome which Daniel forespake of is the kingdome of the Iewes touching the temporall state touching the spirituall the kingdome of the Saintes that doth endure for euer And if we presume vpon the secret workes of the prouidence of God to gather what the fansie of man doth imagin not what the wisedom of God hath reuealed the Turkish impietie may bee as well proued as the Papall kingdom because as the seate of the westerne Empire is fallen to the Pope so Constantinople the seat of the Easterne is fallen to the Turke But whatsoeuer right these reasons may afforde to the Pope now they acquite him not from hauing doon wrong to the Emperours heretofore in that he got his temporall dominion from them by treason and rebellion And this is the first point wherein you went about to cléere his supremacie The next is his tyrannie in spirituall things Wherein your defense of him is so tempered that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his faute in those excesses which I laide open yet doo you smooth them as abuses onely of lawfull autoritie and not vnlawfull actes of vsurped power For you say that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any euill purpose or els their autoritie in any of the pointes mentioned by me you are so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather you rew to see it and you condemne them therefore A short and sclender answere to all their crimes that I touched Howbeit if you speake vnfainedly M. Hart as I pray God you doo I am glad that you seeke not to iustifie the Popes in any of the pointes that I charged them with but rew and condemne their abuses therein For I laide to their charge that they haue oppressed both the ciuil state and the ecclesiasticall the ciuil in taking vpon them to giue Empires to depose Princes to discharge subiectes of their allegiance and oth the ecclesiasticall in making of Church-officers ordering of church-Church-causes disposing of Church-goodes executing of Church-censures and establishing of Church-lawes to serue their owne desires and lustes In all the which pointes if you condemne their doinges as abuses of their autoritie you condemne the practise of their whole supremacie as nothing els in grosse but an heape of abuses Hart. Not of their whole supremacie For though some of them abused their autoritie in sundrie pointes which you mentioned yet others haue not doon so As we had experience in Quéene Maries dayes wherein there were not so many Church-liuings bestowed in England vpon Italian Pastors as you spake of vnder Gregorie the ninth or Innocentius the fourth But howsoeuer they dealt with practise of their power which they abused I graunt the power
of her also of whom our Sauiour tooke flesh and was brought foorth into the world Rainoldes So we doo the feastes of the annuntiation of the blessed virgin and the purification Hart. Nay the dayes of other Saintes which you celebrate as namely of Peter Paul and Iohn are the dayes of their death and so are proper vnto them Wherefore you should of reason at the least celebrate our ladies assumption as the day of her death For though you beléeue not that her bodie is assumpted yet you wil not we trow deny that she is dead and her soule in glory But you doo neither celebrate that nor any other of her proper feastes For as for the dayes of her purification and annuntiation they be not proper to our Ladie but the one to Christes conception the other to his presentation So that she by this meanes shall haue no festiuitie at all Rainoldes No festiuitie at all What a foolish fansie is this of your Rhemists As though the blessed virgin were like to Diana and the Saintes of Christ to the Paynim-gods who euerie one must haue his feast and if you forget or passe ouer any their honour is attainted in it But by this sentence you iustifie the reformed Churches both the rest and ours The rest in that you thinke the holy dayes of Saintes are instituted to their honour which corrupt opinion and superstition growing of it might be a sufficient cause to abolish them Ours in that you say that the annuntiation and purification of the virgin are not proper to our Ladie as you cal her but to Christ. Wherein you acknowledge that the holy dayes of Saintes which we keepe are kept to Christes honour and not to theirs For as the annuntiation of the blessed virgin is proper vnto Christ conceiued and the purification to Christ presented in the temple so the day of Peter is proper vnto Christ professed the day of Paul to Christ preached the day of Iohn to Christ published by the writing of the Gospell And this of them is as cléere as is the other of the virgin by the prayers which we make and the partes of scripture which wee reade on those dayes Wherefore although we celebrate the memorie of these thinges touching the Apostles on those daies on which they dyed perhaps for neither are you sure of that though you celebrate them in memorie of their death yet we do it not in respect of their death so to honour their assumption but in respect of those thinges which Christ did by them while they liued And by the same reason you may proue that we keepe no holy day to any Saint by the which you gather â—hat the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper vnto her Which in deed you say not because you thinke it or haue cause to thinke it but to make vs odious by bearing men in hand that we despise the blessed virgin For both your selues doo count them and call them her feastes as well as anie other of those that beare her name and the common people when they cal the annuntiation day our Ladie day by your corrupt custome thinke it as proper vnto her as S. Peters is to him and the reformed Churches which disallow the feastes of Saintes haue disalloweâ— these amongst them where yet they allow the feastes that doo belong to Christ his natiuitie circumcision passion resurrection ascension and sending of the holy Ghost Hart. But if your reformed Churches thinke it dangerous to kéepe anie feast of the blessed virgin why doo you retaine two of them in your Church and not the rest as we doo Rainoldes You may learne the reason hereof in your Portesse reformed lately by the Pope In your olde Portesse there was this prayer to the Popes martyr S. Thomas Becket of Canterbury Christe Iesu per Thomae vulnera Quae nos ligant relaxa scelera By Thomas woundes O Christ Iesus Loose thou the sinnes which do binde vs. Or if you will haue better ryme with as bad reason Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem pro te impendit Fac nos Christe scandere quo Thomas aâ—cendit By the blood of Thomas which he for thee did spend Make vs O Christ to clime whether he did aâ—â—end Hart. This is your common obiection against our prayers to Saintes but an obiection for a Cobler and not for a Diuine as D. Harding told Iewell For Christ in this prayer is vsed as the onely mediator of saluaâ—ion S. Thomas a mediator of intercession to Christ. Rainoldes Good words M. Hart. Your plaister of mediators of intercession and saluation is too narrow for this soare Your pang doth make you not to sée it Hart. Nay no whit to narrow For the mediation which we giue to Saintes is so farre inferiour to the diuine and singular mediation of Christ that whereas we say to them Pray for vs we say not so to him we doo not thinke of him so basely but wée desire him to haue mercy vpon vs. Wherefore we make him onely mediatour of saluation and them of intercession Rainoldes Yet is your plaister too narrow for the soare which you apply it too For the blood and woundes of Thomas are presented in the prayers that I spake off And although you thinke not of intercession generally as the scripture doth which maketh it proper to the only mediatour betweene God and man the man Christ Iesus yet I hope you thinke of that intercession by the blood and woundes that it is his alone who gaue him selfe a raunsome for vs and redeemed vs with his pretious blood But if it were so that Thomas might bée made a mediatour of intercession in this preeminent sort that can not heale your Portesse For it doth make him â—latly a mediatour of saluation not onely to pray for vs but to haue mercy vpon vs. Opâ—â— nobis ô Thoma porrige Rege stantes iacentes erige Mores actus vitam corrigâ— Et in paciâ— nos viam dirige Salue Thoma virga iustitiae Mundi iubar robur ecclesiae Plebis amor cleri deliciae Salue gregis tutor egregie Salua tuae gaudentes gloriae O Thomas reach thy helpe to vs Stay them that stand raise them that lie Correct our maners deedes life Guide vs into the way of peace All haile ô Thom the rodde of right The worldes light the churches strength The peoples loue the clergies ioye All haile braue patrone of the flocke Saue them who in thine honour glee This praier which giueth the honour of God to a creature is not in your reformed Portesse where yet there is a prayer which giueth as great honour to an other creature euen to a woodden crosse O â—rux â—â—e ipes vnica Hoâ— passionis tempore Auge piis iustitiam Reisque dona veniam All haile ô crosse our onely hope In this time of the passion Encrease thou iustice to
Church both in the spring and grouth of it are couered with great darknes and lye vnknown in a maner for those things saith he which are writen of them are a fewe excepted defiled with many fables while he that writeth them doth folow his own affectioÌ„ telleth not what a Saint hath done but what he would haue had him done so that the writers fansie and not the truth doth penne the storie Yea some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse to coyne prety lyes that thereby mens deuotion might be stirred vp Some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse saith Viues but wil you know of what godlines There is a mysterie in yâ— which Viâ—es doth not open Canus doth open it For he saith that they who feine and forge in writing ecclesiasticall stories deuise their whole matter ether to error or to gaine S. Paule hath forewarned vs of a kinde of men which thinke that gaine is godlines Your Church M. Hart hath had many minions who of a zeale to this godlines haue not onely writen but wrought miracles too You remember the tale of Bel and the Dragon A fréend of yours intreating thereof doth report that as the Priestes of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship so euen in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceiued with miracles wrought either by Priestes or by their adherents for gaine and lucres sake Hart. If any doo so we allow not of it and there is order taken by the Councell of Trent against such abuses But what is this to the Portesse or rather to the Popes supremacie Chiefly sith I minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it Rainoldes I was afraide you would You are a man aâ— likely for ought that I know to doo it for the Popes supremacie as your Rhemists to doo it for the assumption of the virgin Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse as of Portesse-like writers by whom I fell into your Portesse But â—f you minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered vpon S. Thomas of Canterburie Aqua Thomae quinquies varians colorem In las semel transijt quater in crâ—orem Ad Thomae memoriam quater lux descendit Et in sancti gloriam cereos accendit The water of Thomas did fiue times change her colour Once it was turned into milke and foure times into bloud At Thomas his monument foure times there came downe light And in the honour of the Sainte it kindled the tapers Hart. I pray go to the purpose and leaue these idle fansies which you bring in to play with There is no such thing in the Portesse now And if it were what is it to the point in question Rainoldes To the point in question as direct as may be For this Thomas died vpon occasion of a quarrell about the Popes supremacie while he maintained appeales against the king to the Pope Now to proue that he stood in defense of the truth those miracles were wrought For that which they preached who had the grace of miracles was the truth saith Bristow adding that S. Thomas of Canterbury S. Thomas of Aquine S. Francis S. Dominike and infinit others had that grace in such sorte that no man is able to put any difference betweene the miracles of Christ with his Apostles and of these men Yet well-fare their heartes who reformed your Portesse For they haue put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury and many others which they would not haue doon I trow had they not knowne some difference betwéene the miracles of these men and the miracles of Christ. But they haue left in as worthie a miracle as those of an other of Bristowes miracle-workers euen of S. Thomas of Aquine and I hope you will not call that an idle fansie though it be as idle with me as the former For they report of him that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix he heard a voyce the crucifix spake it saying to him Thomas thou hast writen well of me Thomas I should haue thought for my part that the wodden crucifix of a louing thankfull hart had commended him because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God and writeth solemnly that men ought to doo so But Pope Pius the fifth the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse affirmeth that the doctrine of Thomas was approued by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle And he knew best the meaning ofit So that I perceyue this miracle was rather a dogmaticall miracle as Bristow â—ermeth it then personall But whether personall or dogmaâ—icall it shall not perswade me that all is true which is writen and taught by your dogmaticall Doctor Thomas For as I haue shewed he forgeth and belyeth the Fathers notably in the defense of the Popes supremacie against the Grecians I can hardly think that when the crucifix said Thomas had writen well it meant to approue his writing in that point Or if the crucifix meant it the crucifix was to blame vnlesse the faute were rather in some lying knaue who spake out of the crucifix Such feates there haue beene wrought in images ere now Hart. Euill mindes turne all thinges to the worst Pope Pius the fifth doth say of that miracle that it is recorded in a godly story Rainoldes But in what story Pope Pius doth not say Belike he meaneth Antoninus of whom you know what Canus iudgeth and his iudgement therein is good Hart. Yet you can not deny but that Antoninus reporteth many true thinges And why may not that miracle I pray be one of them Rainoldes A lying miracle no doubt as Antoninus reporteth it For he saith that when Thomas was commanded by Pope Gregorie to come vnto the Councell of Lions and to bring with him that booke which he had made by Pope Vrbanes commandement against the errours of the Grecians whereof in that Councell they were to be conuicted before he went thither that voyce was heard out of the crucifix by certaine who watched Thomas as he was praying on a certaine night in S. Dominikes coovent-coouent-church I say nothing here of the suspicious circumstances the time the night season the place the coovent-coouent-church the witnesses lying in waite the cause to proue that which should bee handled for the Pope against the Grecians in the Councell Onely this I say that séeing in that booke against the errors of the Grecians Thomas doth falsifie the writinges of S. Cyrill and of aboue six hundred Fathers euen the generall Councel of Chalcedon to make them beare witnesse for the Popes supremacie the miracle pretended to haue declared as from heauen that Thomas did well in handling so the cause of Christ was a lying miracle lying in respect
possessed any they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie I meane they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie Hart. But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed belongeth to their Sée and is theirs of right Rainoldes No. For the exception which I made against them was of two branches one that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope the other that they auouch more through affection then is true and right And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason But they whom I alleaged of the second sort were holy men and Saints Rainoldes The Apostles of Christ I hope were Saintes too Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that they did not onely desire superioritie but also striue about it Innocentius Leo Gelasius Vigilius Pelagius and Gregorie the men whoÌ„ you alleaged were not greater then the Apostles And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome doth so excéede the truth that it beareth euident markes of their affection You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God by which he saith they decreed that whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome For what were the Fathers who decréed that where is the sentence of God by which they did it Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches which not Innocentius onely but the rest too as I haue shewed in Leo doo lend their Church Peter Yea some flat repugnant to the holy scripture and that confessed by your selues For they say that all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman The holy scripture maketh Ierusalem the spring of them They say that all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter The holy scripture teacheth that many had it from other Apostles not from him They say that the Church of Rome hath neither spot norwrinckle nor any such thing The holy scripture sheweth that the Church is sanâ—ctified framed to be hereafter not hauing spot or wrinckle or any such thing wheÌ„ Christ shal make it glorious triumphant in heauen not but that it hath such while it is militant on the earth Which is so apparant that not the Fathers only but Thomas of Aquine also and D Stapleton confesse it Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged it cannot be denied but they had affections and yéelded thereunto as men Howbeit the thirde sort I graunt are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture but they must abuse yea coine scripture too for maintenance of their Papall port They can teach the Church that the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops vpon this condition if they will be sworne to him because wheÌ„ Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter he did condition with him saying if thou loue me feede my sheepe They can teach the Church that the Pope hath power ouer all powers Princes of the earth none hath power ouer him because the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges yet hee himselfe is iudged of no maÌ„ They can teach the Church that Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars who by the testimony of the booke of kinges must needes be so obeyed that he who obeieth them not must die the death and as it is read otherwhere Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges is in the booke of Deuteronomie The text is true scripture though the place mistaken And though it belong not to the Pope immediatly Rainoldes Nay neuer goe about to salue it M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue alredy handled Pope Leo the tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie Deuteronomie for the Papacie But what soeuer you think of the third or seconde or any sort of Popes it is against all law both of God and man that they should bée witnesses in their own matter And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better the iury will cast you out of all controuersie For if I should beare witnesse of my selfe saith Christ my witnesse were not true None are fit witnesses in their own causes no not though they were as worthy meÌ„ as Scipio was amoÌ„gst the Romans It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall Iohn a Noke must haue this land for Iohn a Noke saith so The Canonistes themselues when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie doe note that it is a familiar kind of proofe meaning such belike as that in the common prouerbe Aske my felow if I be a theefe Which they might note the better because it is euideÌ„t that the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power as great Diuines among you haue written in these very termes Hart. The power which they claimed hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men But it was no more then their right and due Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers Rainoldes Of whom Hart. Of the chéefest of them both Gréeke and Latine For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first and to Caelestinus Epist. 90.92.95 S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius Epist. 1. 2. S. Basil to the Pope in his time Epist. 52. S. Ierom to Damasus Epist. 57.58 tom 2. and other likewise to others that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Rainoldes If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise and counsell some by their autoritie and credit some by both By their aduise and counsell as Ierom of Damasus By their autoritie credit as Chrysostome of Innocentius By both as Basill Austin and the Bishops of Afrike of the Popes in their time Bernard somewhat more But he liued yesterday in comparison of the rest and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers Though neither he by this
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌ„pacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâ—and chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ„ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ„ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâ—es ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ„ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
to harten them against all dangers and deceites of enemies with the skill of warfare and sure hope of victorie he bindeth them with sacraments as with bonds of obedience and pledges of his grace he willeth them to call for his helpe in distresses promiseth it if they call for it he appointeth them warlike discipline to kéepe them selues in order and gard them safer from their enemies to be short be deliuereth them the whole trade of warfare opened by himselfe the Generall of the armie and writen in his word To the intent then that all the souldiers of God who be sent at diuers times into diuers countries to serue him in this warfare might learne it practise it he hath ordeined as ciuill assemblies societies for the mainteinance of this life so likewise for the next ecclesiasticall In which ecclesiasticall societies and assemblies it is his will pleasure that there should be captaines to teach and souldiers to learne both of them warriours faithfully to practise and wage the warre of the Lord. And these are called churches but particular churches to distinguish them from the catholike because they are diuers partes of the catholike that is the whole church diuers members of one body diuers bandes of one army Which for the diuers regard of place and time wherein they go to warfare are specified by diuers names In regard of place the church which serued God at Ierusalem is called the church of Ierusalem that which at Samaria the church of Samaria that which at Ephesus the church of Ephesus that which at Rome the church of Rome they which in England in France in Germany are called the English the French the Dutch churches In regard of time wée say the Iewish church in the dayes of Moses of Dauid of Ezekias the Roman vnder Nero Constantine Boniface the English in King Henries raigne King Edwardes Queene Maries or how soeuer els the difference of times be noted Now the rule of reason and honestie would that euery one of these churches ordeined by God to that end should bring foorth the children of God as a mother yeld dutifull honour to God as a spouse and fight the spirituall battailes of God as a valiant and faithfull army But the deuill the enemy of the chosen woman in nature a Satan in subtletie a serpent in fiercenes a dragon which furiously pursueth the woman her seede soweth rares among the wheate in the field of the Lord that is to say he mingleth his souldiors with the souldiours of God in the campe and amongst the godly he foysteth in hypocrites that they being felow-souldiors in shew but traitours in déede may corrupt the army And him selfe prouoketh the faithfull to reuolt from God by all his practises open and secret force and fraude some time by fyer and sword of tyrantes some time by baites of pleasures and wealth some time by the pretense of religion and charitie By the which meanes he procureth often partly through the craft and cunning of hypocrites chiefly when they are made captaines of some band partly through the frailtie and infirmitie of the elect whom flesh and blood doo weaken that the church which is billed to the warfare of Christ knoweth not or careth not for the trade of warfare and serueth perhaps vnder her captaines banner but retchlessely and loosely perhaps is betrayed to the enemy by her watchmen while either they doo fall a sleepe or deale falsely And so commeth that to passe at the length which the Prophets lament in the church of the Iewes too many churches since Christes time haue felt that the church which should be a mother is a stepmother shée whose faith is plight to Christ becometh an adulteresse bands of souldiers breaking their promise yea their oth doo rebell against the Highest So the churches of Galatia when they had beléeued the Gospell of Christ and their names were billed by their owne consent to serue in his warres were remoued away by such as troubled them to an other Gospell So S. Paul feareth for the Church of Corinth least as the serpent beguiled Eue through his suttletie so their minds should be corrupted and seduced from the simplicitie that is in Christ. So Christ him selfe teacheth vs that the church of Pergamus was stayned with the filth of the Nicolaitans that the church of Laodicea was blind naked luke-warme neither hot nor cold that the church of Sardis was in part dead in part readie to dye though aliue in part The assemblies therefore of the churches militant called visible churches which doo containe the good togither with the bad the chosen with the reprobate the faithfull with the treacherous the holy with the hypocrites chaffe with corne tares with wheate wooden and earthen vessels with vessels of gold and siluer some of them for honour and some vnto dishonour I say these visible churches may doo their dutie faintly may leaue it altogither vndoon may be discharged of their oth and dismissed from souldiers seruice they may be sicke of lesser diseases and infirmities they may be of a deadly pestilence they may lose the spirit of Christ and so dye Furthermore to make it easier to be séene what churches ought to be accounted dead what churches sicke what churches whole and sound we haue to consider the causes of death of sicknesse and of health The causes of these things do come in mens bodies as Physicians teach partly from the seede that wee are begotten of partly from the foode wherewith wee are nourished Whereof the one appeereth in sicknesse and diseases that come by inheritance such as are deriued from the parents to the children the other as it hath a great force in all men so experience sheweth that it hath greatest force in armies For the souldiors who serued Marcus Antonius being faine to eate rootes for want of corne fell vpon an herb which brought them first to madnesse and afterward to death and Vegetius a writer of the trade of warfare geuing charge that souldiers drinke not of marish waters saith that naughty water is like vnto poyson and doth breede the plague in them who drinke of it Not vnlike is the case of spirituall death diseases and health in the bodies of Churches For they doo either liue in pâ—rfit good health or fall into sicknes or come to their death according to the nature of their seede and foode Now the seede whereof and foode with the which they are wont and ought to be begotten anew and nourished is the word of God as S. Peter witnesseth preached by the seruants and ministers of Christ. Therefore in what Churches the ministers doo preach the word of God pure sincere and vncorrupt that it may bréede good iuyce and blood in them through the inward woorking of the holy Ghost those churches must we count to be â—ound and whole some of them
indeede more sound then other some according as the word is more purely preaâ—â—ed and the spirit worketh more effectually but all of them sound But where the word of God either is not preached so that there groweth a famine or is preached corruptly mixt with mans word as it were with leauen or darnell or poyson as they who receiue no foode are like to dye through hunger such as eate bread made of corne and â—â—rnel doo fall into a light frenâ—â—â— so must we néedes iudge that churches whose foode is either none or naught are apt to diseases and neere to their deathe For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word in that he telleth Israel that God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord which when they shall seeke for to and fro and finde no where it shall come to passe that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst and fall and neuer rise againe Now that the corruption of the worde doth hurt too the Apostle noteth in aduertising Timothee that they who teach other doctrine and consent not to the wholesome wordes of Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines are sick and do dote about noysome folies which edifie not to godly faith in so muâ—h that their word doth fret as a kinde of canker which hauing taken hold of one part of the body doth eate out the next partes by litle litle vntill the whole body at last be cleane consumed Which if it come to passe as it must of necessitie vnlesse the better remedy be spéedily prouided for healing of the body that which was a body doth become a carkasse and is no longer a church it is left destitute of the spirit of God which is the soule thereof and of the soules instrument that is the word of God And this death is threatned by Christ to the Iewes in the old church refusing him their Messias therefore shal the kingdome of God be taken from you and geuen to a nation which shall bring foorth the fruites of it and in the new church to the EphesiaÌ„s hauing left their first loue I wil come against thee shortly wil remoue thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend Which two things foretold by our sauiour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches of the church of the Iewes within a few yeares when the gospel was remoued from them to the Gentiles of the church of Ephesus many ages after when hauing béen sick first of sundrie heresies it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet Thus I haue declared as briefly as I could how particular churches are called members of the catholike how they are ordeyned to learn and practise Goâ—s seruice how the good in them are intermingled with the bad the godly with hypocrites finally what their health is what their diseases be and when they must be counted sound when vnsound Which pointes being marked my paines wil be the lesser in opening the Conclusion the two stemmes whereof on what rootes they grow you perceiue already The church of Rome is not the catholike church it is no sound member of the catholike church The church of Rome is not the catholike church What can be more cléere For the catholike church is the church vniuersall the church of Rome is particular So that in my iudgement the Papistes speake monstrously when they call the Romane church the catholike church and make them all one Some will say perhaps that when they call it catholike they meane it to be sound and of a right beleefe such as doth hold the catholike faith as the ciuil law doth terme the right beléeuers catholike Christians and the church of Afrike is named catholike by Cyprian Yet that is false too For they geue the title of catholike church of Rome that they may put into the heads of the vnskilfull that that is the church out of which there is no saluation But out of the church of Rome there haue beene saued innumerable shall be out of the catholike church not one But let it be graunted that they meane by catholike a church holding the right faith I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith and that is the other part of my Conclusion it is no â—ound member of the catholike church Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholike church I meane not that it languisheth of a litle sicknes or disease not dangerous which may seeme rather to haue abated somewhat of exquisite health then haue bereft her of all health For as Galen teacheth of the health of the body that it hath a reasonable bredth as you would say and certaine degrees as it were of perfitnes that they who are able to go about their businesse and doo affaires of life are to be counted whole though they enioy not a most perfit health so in the health of churches I déeme there are certaine degrées of sinceritie that they who doo the functions of spirituall life reasonably well are to be counted â—ound although they attaine not to a most absolute soundnesse And for that cause as we iudge our owne churches to be sound although there remaine some distemper in them by the relikes of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them downe so that they could not yet be recouered fully in like sort we iudge of the churches of Germanie which are troubled with the errour of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a litle ague if other wise they holde Christian faith and loue soundly and sincerely But the church of Rome is not distempered with a litle ague such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly but is sicke of a canker or rather of a leprosy or rather of a pestilence in so much that she is past hope of recouery vnlesse our Sauiour Christ the heauenly physician doo giue her wholesome medicins to purge her of pernicious humours And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholike church Which I will proue by two reasons the one of the causes the other of the effectes whereof from the one diseases doo arise in the other they shew them selues by them both they are surely proued I would to God I might discourse hereof at large according as the weightines of the thinges requireth But we must be content to doo as time wil license vs. You wil pardon me therefore I trust if I runne them ouer somewhat hastily and as they say touch and go I will hold out my finger toward the well head gesse you the lion by his pawes Concerning the causes which doo bréed diseases and sicknesse in the church it is as I haue touched already cléere and certaine that they are either the want of food of Gods word
the people may haue eyes and not reade them eares and not heare them In the which fact whither they shew them selues more disobedient to God or iniurious to the people it is hard to say sith God hath expresly commanded that all things must be doon to edifie that is to build vp and things not vnderstoode I trow build not vp no not the tower of Babylon But by this meanes the people can not heare the word of God publikely because he speaketh to them in an outlandish toong and a strange language Which thing the Lord laid on the Iewes for a punishment the Roman Church doth thrust it on Christians for a benefit Much lesse are they able priuately to reade it because they neither haue the scriptures translated into their mother toongs and many in the time of our predecessours were condemned as heretikes for reading part thereof which they had translated Wherefore sith the plentie of the word of God which it is a point of very heinous wickednes not to procure for Christians more heinous not to allow it them most heinous not to permit it them is not onely not permitted but hindered by the Church of Rome and hindered not onely by lawes but by fyer too I will not vse sharper wordes against her tyranny onely this I say that he must be impudent néedes who would deny that shée hath brought in a famin of the word The causes then of sicknesse are manifestly found in the Church of Rome both for the corruption and scarcitie of the foode of life Now such as the cause is such is the effect and out of bitter fountaines there issue bitter waters The lesse maruell is it that her effectes and functions bewray sore diseases such as must of likelihood procéede from such causes For a sound and whole Church the faculties and powers whereof are not impaired hath fower speciall functions as the scriptures shew namely to teach the faith to minister the sacraments to pray and practise discipline according to the word of God But neither is the faith of Christ purely taught nor sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised by the Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound no more then was his daughter who said vnto Christ my daughter is at the point of death For to say a little of ech of these in order the summe of the doctrine of the Christian faith is the saluation of the faithfull by Iesus Christ the lambe of God Of the which saluation the beginning cometh from the grace of God the substance consisteth in the righteousnes of God the end is referred to the glory of God by the holy scriptures This holy religion which maketh God all in all for our saluation giuing the whole to him and taking it from men that we may trust not in flesh but in the Lord onely dooth sauour of Christian modestie too much it contenteth not the Roman pride and arrogancy And therefore as Prometheus in the Greeke fables is said to haue allotted part of a sacrifice to Iupiter part to him selfe euen so the Prometheus of the Popish Church in the Roman faith assigneth and referreth the beginning of our saluation in part to Gods grace in part to the power of nature the substance of our saluation in part to Gods righteousnes in part to mans merits the end of our saluation in part to Gods glory in part to the honour and woorship of creatures Neither is this doon by some one Prometheus or Epimetheus rather but by the whole company of the Epimetheans euen the Councell of Trent though closely sometimes to couer their deceit with darknes yet so that their expositours bring their hidden meanings out into the light For first and formost they will haue the naturall power and abilitie of their owne will free-will they terme it to be concurrent as they speake with the grace of God that is a party-worker with it as if God did onely reléeue the will béeing weake and raise it vp being faint not renue it being corrupted and repaire it being perished Besides they imagine that infidels and faithlesse men doo certaine workes they call them woorkes of preparation in which though being doon without faith they sinne not nay they procure the grace of God thereby So they bring to passe as much as lieth in them at least they indeuour what by the power of free-will what by their works of preparation that all be not attributed to the grace of God which grace is with them as Paul saith of himselfe but to the grace of God with them as those words of Paul are ill expressed in their translation that is some what to Gods grace and somewhat to their own merit at least as to a merit of meetenes and conueniency As for the righteousnes of God which is geuen vs in Christ while we are clensed from our sinnes and acquitted as righteous before Gods iudgement-seate by the sacrifice of Christ offered for the faithfull and the obedience of Christ imputed to the faithfull they contemne this righteousnes yea and condemne it as hereticall In the stéede whereof as of a vaine righteousnes or at least to it as to a righteousnes vnperfit they put the righteousnes of men consisting of their own woorks and merites of woorthines woorkes and merites wrought by the grace of Christ they will say I graunt yet of their own woorkes and merites of woorthines as the Schoolemen name them that is to say the woorthines whereof doth deserue and merit euerlasting life That so they may enioy it not of gift but of duetie by their own merit not by Christes as triumphers not as suters not as beggers but as conquerors after the glorious vant of the Louan-diuinitie To that which purpose they doo not extenuate onely the worthines of the merites of Christ in so much that they supply the weaknes thereof with their own merits other mens with due workes and vndue with Masses Trentals Pardons Pilgrimages with treasures of the church with praiers of the Saints finally wit satisfactions while they are aliue and after death with paines to be endured in Purgatory but also they extoll and lift vp to the sky the woorthines of their own merites professing most proudly that they are able to doo the law of God perfitly and truely to merit euerlasting life yea to doo more then they are bound by Gods law euen workes as they terme them of supererogation thereby to help foolish virgins with their oyle And hence it commeth too that they doo no lesse extenuate their own sinnes then they extoll their own vertues neither make they onely veniall sinnes of mortall and change the commandementes of God into counsels but also deny concupiscence to be sinne acquitting fleshly lustes wherewith we being pricked doo rebell against
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in church-Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
mouth expoundeth it of the Pope The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one doth it not condemne this sense of the scripture geueÌ„ by the Fathers because it is against the sense of their Church Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it Or els D. Stapleton I trust should be censured for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate Wherefore if they who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures be the false Church as he teacheth vs the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred And thus much of the Doctor The Licentiate foloweth him in the same steppes reprouing a speech of mine touching Cyprian Whose praise of the Romans that vnfaithfulnesse cannot haue accesse to theÌ„ being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre I hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture did adde What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me ô Cyprian I would beleeue thee gladly but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God Hereon M. Martin to aduauntage his cause first abuseth Cyprian saying that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith Which he affirmeth not But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly that he was allowed by fiue tweÌ„tie Bishops Cyprian to meete with their falshood and treacherie saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans who being faithfull men would not giue eare to faithlesse lyers Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes for euen there he noteth they might be a while as hee did trie both then and after but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes by praising them as wary Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith as M. Martin threapeth on him Yet because he might be supposed to haue thought it at least by a consequent for if they could not erre in that much lesse in faith therefore I contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it sayd that if he thought it he must pardon me for not beleeuing him the word of God gainsaying it And this doth M. Martin reproue both for that wherevpon I spake it and for my kind of speeche That wherevpon I spake it is he sayth that euery youth among vs vpon confidence of his spirit will controll not onely one but all the Fathers consenting together if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth In which wordes by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him For I touched the credite of no more of them then the Papistes grant themselues may be touched Nor controlled I ought vpon confidence of my spirite but of the spirite of God because it was against not that which I imagined but knew to be the truth My kind of speeche he noteth for being very fine and figuratiue as I thought As I thought did M. Martin see my hart If not hee might haue kept that thought within himselfe For in truth to open it because he presseth me so farre I thought in that figure Paerdon me ô Cyprian to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin Pardon me ô Paule What M. Martin thought wheÌ„ herevpon he matched me with vaine foolish youths himselfe hath declared But it would better haue beseemed his age to haue acknowledged rather the truth which I proued then haue reproued my kind of speech For although I be a vaine and foolish youth who spake so of Cyprian yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle whose doctrin I maintayned in it These are good Christian reader the faultes of my Conclusions al that are noted by Stapleton Martin as farre as I know If they or any other haue touched ought else which I haue not lighted on I will not be ashamed vpoÌ„ notice of it to bring it forth my selfe and answere it in iudgement For I haue bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing as well in the Conclusions as in the Conference with M. Hart God is my record that if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me I would beare it vpoÌ„ my shoulder bind it as a crowne vnto me The bolder I am to coÌ„mend them both to thy vpright iudgement beseeching the Father of lights for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit that thou maist grow in knowledge in faith in hope in loue and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen who seeke and serue him Psal. 119.18 Open myne eyes O Lord that I may see wonderfull thinges out of thy law LONDON Printed by Iohn Wolfe for George Bishop 1584. a 1. Sam. 19 2â— 2. King 2.5 4.8 b Reue. 1â— â— c Act. 6. ver 9. d ver 14. e ver 11. f ver 13. g Act. 7.2 h Act. 1.1 i Luk. 1.3 〈◊〉 23 1â— l Ezek. 47.12 m Gen. 3.9 n Psal. 6â— â—â— o 1. Tiâ— â—â— * In the seueâ—th Chapter and the seuenth Diuision a Rom. 10. â— b Rom. 9.3 c Rom. 10.2 d Act. 22.3 e Gal. â— 1 f Rom. 10.4 g Allen in the Apologie of the English Seminariâ—s chapt 6. h chapt 2. i chapt 3. k chapt 1. 6. l chapt 5. m chapt 1. 5. n chapt 1. 4. * Esai 9.16 o Allen in hiâ— Apologie chapt 5. p â—heologiâ—â— Miniâ—â—ri ecclesiaâ—um ditioniâ— Casimiri in Admonitione de liâ—ro Concordâ—â— cap. 12. q Concertat ecclesiâ—e Cathoâ—licae in Anglia aduersus Caluin Puritan In epistola Lucae Kyrby Apologia Martyrum 1 Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis 2 Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit 3 Egregium Christi Athleâ—am 4 Sanctum sacerdotem 5 Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum 6 Firmiores egisse radices in fideâ— fundamentis 7 Doctrina esse solidiori 8 Ministrum synagogâ—e Anglicanae non vulgarem 9 Re insecta vnde venit â—ecessit r Allen in hiâ—â—pologie The nâ—â—ration oâ— tâ—e English 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 s Dan. 1. ver â— t ver 4 u ver â— x Allens Apoloâ—giâ— chapt 3. y chapt 2. z chapt 6. a Dan. 1. ver 7. 8. b ver 12. ver 4. 19. ver 3. e Guicâ—iardin hist. Ital. lib. 11 f lib. â—â— g Allens Apologic chapt 6 h Genebrard Chronogr lib. 4. in aâ—pend i The narration of the English Semin in Rom. k Gen. 3.6 l Esai 19.18 m 2. Cor. 11. ver 13. n ver 22. o The â—arration of the English Semin in Rome p 2. Cor. 11. â—â— q Iob. 1.7 2.2 r 1. King 11.10 s Dan. 1.