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A04208 A Christian and modest offer of a most indifferent conference, or disputation, about the maine and principall controversies betwixt the prelats, and the late silenced and deprived ministers in England tendered by some of the said ministers to the archbishops, and bishops, and all their adherents. Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624. 1606 (1606) STC 14329; ESTC S120767 28,632 54

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Ecclesiasticall which are lawfully imposed vpon any Church are such as may be cōcluded necessarily from the writ ten word of God 2. All Humane Ordinances vsed only or specially in Gods worship whervnto they are not necessary of them selues are simply vnlawfull 3. Euery true visible Church of Christ is such a spirituall Body politike as is specially instituted by Christ or his Apostles in the New Testament 4. There is no True Visible Church of Christ but a particular ordinary Congregation onely 5. Every true visible Church of Christ or ordinary Assemblie of the faithfull hath by Christs ordinance power in it selfe immediatly under Christ to elect and ordaine deprive and depose their Ministers and to execute all other Ecclesiasticall Censures 6. The Pastor of a particular Congregation is the highest ordinarie ecclesiasticall Officer in any true constituted visible Church of Christ 7. It is the Office of every true Pastor to teach to governe spiritually onely one Church or Congregation immediatly under Christ 8. The Pastor alone ought not to exercise Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over his Church but others ought to be joyned in Commission with him by the assignement of the same Church neither ought he and they to performe any maine and materiall Ecclesiasticall act without the free consent of the Congregation 9. The Presbyterie which is desired is not Lay as they call it And the Churchwardens and Sidemen heere in England beyng joyned as Assistants to the Ministers in the oversight of the severall Parishes are a resemblance of those governing Elders which are desired 10. The Office and Calling of Provinciall Diocesan Prelats is contrary to the word of God 11. It is simply unlawfull for any Pastor under the New Testament to be also a Civill Magistrat 12. The Civill Magistrats ought to be the Overseers of Provinces Dioceses and of the severall Churches therin And it is their Office dutie injoyned them by God to take knowledge of to punish and redresse all misgoverning or ill teaching of any Church or Church officer 13. The Church government desired is more agreable to the state of a Monarchie and to the Kings Supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall and more easie and sate both for Church Common wealth then is the present government by Prelats 14. No man hath authoririe to bring into the service of God any Ceremony meerely Ecclesiasticall of mysticall signification 15. The Ceremonies in controversie are not indifferent but contrary to the word of God 16. The Ministers refusing the Conformitie and Subscription required are therein neither Schismatiks Seditious persons enemyes to the Kings Supremacie nor any way undutifull to King or State 2. The Conditions forme and maner of the Conference or disputation THat there may be a free choise made by the Ministers from amongst themselues of some 6. or 8. persons vnto whom the maintenance of these points may be committed and as many chosen by the Prelats from among them selues or their Conformed Clergie to impugne the same 2. That it my be lawfull for those on either side so chosen in any particular occurrent difficulty to take counsell and aduise of any other their Brethren and that then the speciall acts of the said chosen parties may be reputed the Acts of all those that chose them 3. That when one side hath opposed to the vttermost that they can or shall see meet then the other side shall oppose in like maner to the contrary And that the Prelates may if they will make choise which side shall oppose in the first place 4. That the Opponents frame their Arguments in strict forme of Syllogisme only And that the Answerers without any excursions or personall speeches whatsoeuer answer directly to the premisses either by denying or distinguishing and that all be done in writing 5. That if at any time the Answerer denying a Proposition shall withall giue a reason of his deniall he doe it in few wordes and that then the Opponent shall briefly by way of discourse take away the reason and after that presently conclude the denied Proposition that so the Argument may come to the intended issue 6. That if either in the Question Argument or Answer there be any termes which shall seeme doubtfull there be no proceeding in the Conferēce untill the same be explaned and the explanations deliuered in writing if they which make doubt shall require it 7. That neither side be urged to conclude those clauses which in the maine Questions or in the premisses of any Syllogisme are without controversie granted but that by consent they may be omitted and that it may be only specified briefely that such or such a clause in such or such a Proposition is yeelded unto And if there be many clauses in one and the same proposition which are doubtfull that then it be lawfull and free to proue one of them after another 8. That the Arguments Answers and Replyes be sub scribed by every person of that side frō which they com and so delivered to the other side 9. That there be no passing to the second proposition vntill the first be fully debated nor to the third vntill the second c. As also no passing to a second or third argument vntill the first be followed to the vttermost 10. That reasonable time may be allowed for returning Replyes Answers and when any argument is prosecuted to the vttermost that all the Syllogismes Answers Replyes be written together and subscribed by all parties of each side in the conference as their ioynt act and that after they are so subscribed there shall be no liberty to alter or change any thing therein But that before such subscription it may be lawfull and free for each side vpon better considerations to alter change or revoke any particular Reply or Answer 11. That when these controversies haue been debated to the vttermost in maner and forme aforesaide two of each side be chosen to digest the whole into a booke and that it may be published in English and Latin 12. That all by controversies and contentions whatsoeuer which shall fall out between the parties imployed in this conference may be heard iudged determined and sentenced by some civill Magistrat assigned by his Majestie for that purpose 13. That the said Ministers vndertaking this conference may haue publike warrant and protection from his Majestie for the performance of the same in such maner as is heere set downe 14. That if it plainly appeare by this indifferent triall or by the Prelats refusing to accept it that the Ministers in these Propositions haue the truth on their side and that the Prelats are in so great error Then the said Ministers as many els as shall see the truth which they stand for may be exempted from the jurisdiction of the Prelats the Ministers restored agayne to their Ministerie from which they haue been unjustly deprived freed from the Conformitie and subscription requyred and may with their particular Elderships Churches be
our Cōsciences as being perswaded in our very soules that we cannot yeeld unto them without sinning against Christ Iesus whose Ministers and Messengers we are And if upon such a due Triall of our cause as is desired the truth of the ensuing Propositions which are the speciall groundes on which we stand shal be infringed by the Prelates nay if we shall not be able to make them so cleere and manifest by the infallible undeniable evidence of the holy word of God that who so doth not wilfully hoodwinke himselfe may plainely see and discerne the truth of them we doe heere promise and binde our selues in the word of Christians that we will presently change our mindes and become wholly Conformable to the present State Wherefore we being herein privy to our owne uprightnes both to God to our Soveraigne cannot but conceiue some hope notwithstanding all the contrary plottes and practises of the Prelates that your Maiestie who are even as an Angell of God to discerne betweene good and evill wil be pleased now at last both to take a more exact knowledge of our cause and out of the tender bowells of your compassion to thinke upon and pity the distressed estate not onely of us the Lordes poore servants who are without any iust cause cast out from serving at his Altar but also of the Churches of Christ in this land which doe mourne and grone under the burden of humane Traditions Oh that this should be told at Gath or published in the streetes of Ashkelon amongst the daughters of the uncircumcised that under the Governement of so worthily renowned and famous a Prince the Churches of God haue been thus miserably wasted and such a woful havock made in them by vsurping time-serving Prelates as the like hath never been heard of in this land under the Gospell Oh that this should be either said or written in succeeding ages that in the raigne of Noble King Iames whose name shall liue amongst men when he having finished his course shall sleepe with his Fathers so many painefull Preachers of the Gospell even three hundred or there-aboutes haue in one yeere and a litle more been turned out of Christs service onely for refusing such Ceremonies as haue their life breath and being from Poperie and such a Subscription as the like for ought we know hath neuer been urged upon any Church of Christ in any age under a Christian Magistrate there being in the meane time whole swarmes of idle Idole scandalous Popish and Non-resident Ministers tolerated every where amongst us The Prelates haue left no meanes of rigour and extremitie vnassayed for the suppressing of this cause and for the discouraging and daunting of all those that either speake or write for it and yet the glorious evidence of the truth is such that it wanteth no witnesses there being at this day many hundreds of the most painefull profitable Preachers in this Kingdome besides those alreadie turned out which are readie to lose both their Ministery their Maintenance and to expose themselues theirs to all manner of misery rather then they will renounce this Cause and conforme themselues to the Corruptions of the times If therefore there be in the Prelates any loue of the truth or any sparke of desire of the peace and prosperitie of our Churches which is the thing that they so much pretend unto your Maiestie it will now appeare and shew it self and you shall easily discerne it by their indeavour to procure the admittance of this Offer which is the likeliest the readiest way that hitherto hath been thought upon both to finde out the truth and to put a perpetuall end to all these long-continued Controversies Some other thinges there be which we would willingly haue brought to this or the like Triall as namely the Oth ex officio which is a cruell a racking of the minde as the most exquisite Torture can be of the body and sundrie of the late Canons But because they be of another nature and we take them to be not onely contrary to the word of God but also directly against the lawes of the land we mention them not in our Propositions in which we haue endevoured to set downe onely the groundes of all the maine differences betwixt us the Prelats which if they be once throughly debated soundly agreed upon your Maiestie shall see such a blessed vnitie and vniformitie in all the Churches within your Dominions as your owne heart desireth May it therfore please your most excellent Maiestie to reade examine this Offer to weigh in all the partes therof the equitie iustice of it the most certaine advantage that the truth on which side soever it is shall receiue by the acceptance of it may it please you likewise to urge the Prelates whom it deepely concerneth to admitt of it and to secure by Royall protection those that shal be Actors in it who howsoever they are forced to conceale their names in regard of the rigor and severitie of the Prelates will notwithstanding be most willing readie to shew themselues if your Maiestie shall vouchsafe to signifie your gratious pleasure touching the admittance of this Conference If therefore we haue found favour in your Maiesties eyes and if this great cause of Christs be regarded Our humble suite vnto your Highnes is that you would make it knowne by some publike Act that the Offer shal be accepted and they protected by your Royall Authority that haue or shall haue to doe in it So shall we haue occasion every day more and more to intreat the Lord as we haue done and will doe for ever that he will continue vpon your Maiestie with a happy increase all his graces both bodily and spirituall even untill and in the day of Christ The Lord Iesus blesse your Maiestie and your Royall posteritie and graunt vnto you a long and a happie raigne over us the Lord multiplie all his mercyes upon you both for this and a better life and cover with shame the faces of all such as wish you the least evill Amen Your Majesties obedient Subjects most readie to doe your will in all thinges wherein they shall not disobey the will of God Some of the late silenced and deprived Ministers A CHRISTIAN AND MODEST OFFER OF A MOST INDIFFERENT CONFERENCE or disputation about the maine and principall Controversies betwixt the Prelats and the late s●●nced and deprived Ministers in England TENDERED BY SOME OF THE SAID MINISTERS TO THE Archbishops and Bishops and all their adherents Wherein are set downe 1. The Propositions which the Ministers offer to maintaine against the Prelats 2. The Conditions forme and maner of the Conference or Disputation 3. Iust Considerations moving the Ministers to make this Offer 4. An Answer to such opposisions as may be made by the Prelats against yeeiding to the said Offer 1. THE PROPOSITIONS VVHICH THE MINISTERS OFfer to maintaine against the Prelats 1. ALL matters meerely
subject only to the authoritie and jurisdiction of the Civill Magistrate to whom at all times they are willing and readie to yeeld an account of all their actions and to humble themselues under their censures for any thing they shal be found to offend in Conforming themselues unto their willes in all things alwayes so farre as they may with a good conscience and where they cannot so doe submitting themselues to all such punishment as it shall please them to impose upon them 15. That if it seeme not good to his Majestie the state for reasons best knowne unto themselues to admit of so indifferent honest and reasonable a Conference yet it would please them to requyre the Prelats to publish a direct and full answer to such bookes as haue upon occasiō of the late stormes been published viz. The Abridgement set forth by the Ministers of Lincolne Diocese The Demands Considerations Reasons proving a necessitie of reforming our Churches in England The old Protestant and New formalist The Treatise of Divine worship The 12 Arguments The English Puritanisme and the Protestation c And that it may be lawfull for the Ministers modestly and directly to reply vnto the said Answers as also to any of the bookes which are lately or haue been heertofore written against them their cause and to publish the same in print with leaue of authority which they under take and binde themselues with all convenient speed faithfully and honestly to performe they protesting heere before Almightie God the searcher of all hearts and the just revenger of all hypocrisie that to their knowledge there hath as yet no material thing been writtē against them in these foresaid Propositions or any other Controversie betwixt them and the Prelats but they are able to giue a reasonable and just reply unto the same and that by those bookes which haue been published against them they haue been rather confirmed strengthened in the sayd opinions which they hold against the Prelats then any way satisfied or answered as shall appeare to all the world by Gods gracious assistance if they may haue permitted unto them that liber tie to publish their writings to the world which the Pre lats take unto themselues 16. That if this most reasonable and just course of composing these controversies be denyed them yet at least they may haue free leaue to publish and to offer to the censure of the whole world nakedly and playnly all those several Arguments Reasons which they haue thought upon for the confirmation of the former Propositions as also their direct Answers to all such Arguments on the contrary side as they shall finde publ●shed in the writings of the Prelats and their adherents In all which they promise to keepe themselues closely directly to the poynts in controversy in so strict a forme that it shal be most easy for the Prelats to giue an answer unto them if so be they be in error in holding the said Propositions 3. Iust Considerations moving the Ministers to make this offer MAny of the Ministers having by reason of their Deposition from the publike Ministerie more cause occasion and leasure to studie these controversies then before doe find that the more they wade into them the more they are confirmed in that truth for which they suffer So that howsoever the intendment of the Prelats hath been by their rigorous extremitie of affliction to make them to force their consciences against conscience to yeeld that so they might rejoyce in their flesh and though the Lord hath surrered their rod to the further hardening of their hearts to ly so heavie upon some of his servants that they haue put forth their hand to injquitie yet othersome by this meanes are so far from shrinking from the profession of that truth which by their sufferings they haue honored that the more they haue sustayned for it the more by the mercy of God they see the glorious evidence of it And therefore in honor vnto that heavenly truth they can do no lesse then in the feare of God make this offer vnto the greatest enemyes therof 2. This cause which the ministers professe and witnes vnto by their constant sufferings being as they are perswaded in theire very soules and consciences a divine sacred truth and being notoriously reviled and blasphemed as a hellish error by the mouthes of the prelats their favourers one saying that he damned the discipline to Hell frō whence it came Vaghan his Con●orie in uses Powel de diap pref others publishing in print that Christ is not the Lawgiver of his Churh all generally calling our doctrine and opinion in this cause Schisme and Haeresie yea Treason and Rebellion they having receaued this grace from God not only to see the truth heerein but to seale and confirm it by their sufferings thinke it a most bounden duty that they owe vnto their Lord and master Iesus Christ whose Ministers and Servants they are by all good meanes to iustifie the same yea though they neither had suffered nor should suffer for it Much more now when as by the providence of God they haue in themselues their wiues and children sustained indured so heavy things for it And a more honest moderat Christian and religious defence or Apology they cannot yeld vnto it thē by making such an offer as this is to the avowed enemyes thereof 3. It is notorious vnto all the world what indignities sianders false accusations and calumniations ouer and besides the other Legall proceedings as they are pretended to be the Prelats and their adherents in their privat speeches publike sermons and writinges lay vpon those Ministers that hold maintaine this cause proclaiming thē to be Obstinat Refractarie persons Enemyes to the King State Notorious manifest Schismatikes Turbulent spirits Chaplin wel in 〈◊〉 Considetions Contemptuous and disdayning the Authoritie of their lawfull Gouernors presumptuous and wilfull Contenders with the Magistrat Impugning his authority in thinges indifferent and Soueraigntie in Ecclesiasticall cause False Prophets Members rent and cut of from the Church of God Runawayes from their Ministery some standing vpon these points of difference not for conscience but for carnall respects som because otherwise they knowe not how to be maintayned but by depending on that faction som to gratify their benefactors patrons and to please their friends som for discontentment and want of preferment som for giddines of innovation som for pride of hart and selfeloue som for hatred of order and restraint of their libertie som for ignorance yet willfull because they will not knowe the state of the question some to retaine the opinion of constancy c. Now it being the duty of every Christian even for Christs sake and the Gospells which he doth professe to cleere his innocencie against such false and impious slanders much more is it fit for the Ministers of the Gospell being thus wickedly traduced so to do And therefore they
attyre to administer Baptisme without the signe of the Crosse or any such like mysticall rite and to vndertake a Ministery being called thervnto of the Church without the authority of a Diocesan Prelate and without any such subscription as is required and seeing the consormity and subscription required against which the Ministers doe witnes hath been ever called into question since the first appearance of the Gospell out of Popery concluded and determined against both in the profession and practis of the greatest lights of this age and of so many Reformed Churches haue not the Ministers just cause they desiring nothing which is of it selfe vnlawful suffering for nothing but for the refusall of those things which haue ever been in Controversy whether they be lawfull or not haue not the Ministers we say just cause to make this Offer and to cleaue constantly vnto that which all men grant to be lawfull vntill by some such indifferent meanes as this is the contrary matters bejng so doubtfull shall be proved to be lawfull 16. It is notorious vnto all the world what damnable and impious imputations the Prelats and their defendors haue laid vpon Calvin BeZa and all reformed Churches raking vp calumniations against them out of the writings of Allen Parsons and other traiterous Papists notwithstanding Bishop Iewel and Bishop Bilson haue most cleerly in their writings against the Papists detected the falshood thereof And seeing that the Papists haue gone about since the discovery of that late detestable plot by gunpowder to iustifie their abominable Treasons Conspiracies Rebellions Periuries and Equivocations by the doctrine of the worthyest Protestants taking iust advantage thereof by the slanderous writings of the Prelats against those of our owne religion And further seeing that the intent of the Prelats therin was to make all the Ministers that consent in iudgment with those persons and Churches which they haue thus traduced odious and vile in the eyes of all men as persons in clined to perilous conspiracies Treasons and Rebellions there being no other ground nor any colour of all this but because together with other Churches they holde the foresaid propositions howsoever in a late Reply vnto the Papists the matter be pittifully shifted of yet seeing these heavy proceedings against the said Ministers are a kinde of confirmation of the aforesaid imputations it stands them vpon by this Offer to cleere themselues and to detect the vnchristian and vngodly wrongs which the Prelats haue don to so many worthy persons Churches 17. Vpon a serious consideration how the hand of God hath been vpon many of those who hauing formerly imbraced this cause haue shrunk from tre truth maintained in these propositions how some of them haue evidently lost the grace and power of their gifts some growen to be idle neglecting both privat and publike dutyes yea profane and scandalous in their liues and conversations som ashamed to shew their faces in the presence of any who truly fearing God haue knowne their former cariage som languishing and pining away till they haue died that within few dayes after their yeelding some possessed as it were with a continuall fury incessantly vexing tormenting them FR. MAR and thrusting them into continual storming raging in the pulpit aginst those that doe not as they do all of them falling to the maintenance of most grosse and Popish errors and none of them respected allmost by any but cōtemned scorned even of the Prelats themselues as those which were either hypocrits before or hypocrits now The Ministers hauing receaved this grace from God not only to see and acknowledge this truth but to confirme it with their sufferings haue thought it more then needfull to make this Christian Offer for the staying and strengthening of such of their brethren as are otherwise in danger to fall after the same maner 18. In as much as all the professed and notorious Atheists Papists Blasphemers Adulterers Drunckards infamous persons in this Kingdome are together with the prelats professed enemyes vnto the Ministers in this cause and haue been from time to time the speciall instruments of all the troubles which haue befallen them for the same can any man lay any iust blame vpon the Ministers for making this Offer now when as the Prelats haue by their late proceedings giuen such cause to all the wicked and profane of the land to clappe their hands in Triumph over them 19. It is well knowen in those Countries where the said Ministers haue liued especially to the Townes where they haue exercised their Ministery that according to the proportion of their Livings and maintenance they haue kept as good hospitalitie given as liberall intertainment vnto others and as much relieved to their power those in want as any other Ministers whosoever whereas now a great part of them with their wiues and children are forced to liue vpon the beneuolence and devotions of others Which lamentable and miserable astate of theirs the Prelats and their Adherents are so far from pitying that they take occasion the more to scorne deride thē yea and to insult over them for the same they being not ashamed both in the Pulpit in Print falsely to affirme that by this meanes not only the outward estate of the Ministers is bettered but that they haue voluntarily and of set purpose left their Ministery that they might liue in this maner vpon the sweat of other mens browes and by Contributions inrich themselues Though therfore the many great meanes which the Ministers haue vsed both to prevent these proceedings and to be restored to their places againe are sufficient to lay open the shame of these malicious spitfull calumniations Yet they have thought it meet by this Offer to make it knowne unto all the world that they are so far from affecting such a course of life that they ever haue been and are still most willing to doe any thing but that the doing whereof may procure damnation unto their soules for the keeping or recovering of their former places from which they haue been thrust to the end that they might ease their Christian friends of those great burdens wherewith since these late troubles they haue been pressed in yeelding reliefe unto their extremities 21. The Prelats are now come to this height of Popish injquitie G. Powel Adiaph c. 2. sect 7.8.9.10 that they are not ashamed to hold maintaine that they being the Church are in their Canons and Constitutions alwayes directed in externall thinges by the spirit of God and that therefore whatsoever they decree is more then Humane yea even Divine and that the true Church allwayes depends upon the word so as it cannot possibly swarue from the same and therefore all her Traditions are holy and divine And this Church of Prelats professing themselves to be assembled in a sacred Synod in the name of Christ and directed by the spirit of God Canon 13 and Excommunicating all them that