false as do not preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints nor joyn with them in all duties of worship so far as they are able shall not have the benefit of this indulgence And to the end that these words so far as they are able may not stand for a meer Cypher and signifie nothing let each man particularly declare in what ordinances he is able to joyn that so all total Separation may be prevented p. 70. Indep Though we shall not joyn with we will not condemn your Churches as false And this no rigid Separation p. 71. Presb. The condemning our Churches as false doth little extenuate the Separation For divers of the Brownists who have totally separated in former times have not condemned these Churches as false Though you do not pronounce an affirmative judgement against us your very separating is a tacit and practical condemning of our Churches if not as false yet as impure eousque as that in such Admistrations they cannot be by you as Members communicated with without sin Indep However though we cannot communicate with you as Members of your particular Congregations yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with you as Saints and Members of the Catholick Church Presb. This is as full a declining Communion with us as Churches as if we were false Churches p. 72. Indep If this be called Schism or the countenance of Schism it is more then we have yet learned either from the Scripture or any approved Author p. 73. Presb. It gives manifest countenance to perpetual Schâ—sm should this be allowed you Not that we think differences in Judgment in this or that point to be Schism or that every Inconformâ—ty unto every thing is Schism so as Communion be preserved Or that Separation from Idolotrous Communion ex se unlawful is Schism but 1. We find that you desire not onely that you may be free from communicating as Members in those Parishes where you dwell but also that you may have liberty to have Congregations of such persons who out of tenderness of Conscience cannot communicate with us but do voluntarily offer themselves to joyn in separate Congregations of another Communion Which Secession of our Members from us is a manifest rupture of our Societies into other and is therefore a Schism in the body And if the Apostle doth call those Divisions of the Church wherein Christians did not separate into diverse formed Congregations of several Communions in the Sacrament Schisms much more may such Separations as you desire be so called 2. We find it not alleaged as a Cause of your Separation either that our Churches are false or our Communion exâ—se unlawful but onely Scruple of Conscience that you cannot without sin as to you partake in all duties and enjoy all ordinances which is no Cause of separating nor doth it take off Causless Separation from being Schism which may arise from errours of Conscience as well as carnal and corrupt Reasons Therefore we conceive the Causes of Separation must be shewn to be such as ex Natura rei will bear it out which hath not yet been done nor we think can be 3. And now we desire you to shew out of Scripture and approved Authors what you have learned concerning Schism For the breaking off Members from their Churches which are lawfully constituted Churches and from Communion in Ordinances dispenfed according to Gods word without just and sufficient Cause ex natura rei to justifie such Secession and to joyn in other Congregations of separate Communion either because of Causless Scruple of their own Conscience or because of personal failings in the Officers or Members of the Congregation from which they separate hath been accounted Schism and the setting up Altare contra Altare And concurrently do approved Authors say and we likewise conceive that it is the Cause of the Separation which gives both name and thing to Schism For if the cause be unjust or insufficient according to the Rule of the Word of God let our Brethren tell us what such Separation is It is our â—arnest desire and Prayer that our Brethren might enjoy the Ordinances with the Peace of their Consciences and of the Church also or that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point then redeem it at the price of so much danger and disqâ—riet to the Churches of God p. 74 5 6 7. Indep The Ministers of the Parish Churches are not such as we can comfortably joyn with and sit down under Presh We do not believe that you mean that onely such should be allowed to gather into your Congregations who live under bad and unprofitable Ministers though that be the onely medium there used against our Reason Where the Ministry is without P. 84 85. just exception we refer it to your own Conscinces and to the practise of your Congregations to say how fit it is that the Members should ordinarily much less constantly seek the Ordinances elsewhere We long to know what Reformation of our Parishes will satisfie your Consciences or how this Kingdom may be made the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ better then by dividing it into several parts by the bounds of their dwellings that all who give up their Names to Christ may be taught and governed and have all the Ordinances administred among them suitable to their Conditions p. 102. Indep But it seems you would have us for ever to want the Lords Supper which is not to be endured p. 102. Presb. 1. Why may not some expedient satisfie you in this to prevent so great an evil as Separation 2. We may not do evil for any good end If a man should be brought to such a Streight as that either he must want the Lords Supper or separate from the Congregation whereof he is a Member he may here want the Ordinance during this Errour of his Conscience with less danger than to purchase it by a sinful separation 3. This is a strange and dangerous way of arguing which may open a gap to as many Divisions and Subdivisions in the Church as the Errours are unto which the minds of men are subject And if this be allow'd we desire you to consider how long not our Churches onely but your own or any other Churches in the World shall be free from uncurable unquietness Indep It must be a prejudice to the Church we are in if we separate from her in the Lords Supper And yet you would have us live under their Government whom we prejudice which seems unreasonable to us p. 104 Presb. If your Errours cause prejudice against you is it unreasonable for you to be under the Government of that Church which is prejudiced by you may you with good reason Scandalize the Church by Separation and the Church have no reason to govern you then prejudicating or scandalizing Errours are a Supersedeas to all Government We do not then wonder that Errours and perverse opinions so much abound it may be
a Parish doth not make Members of a Church 15. Removal from one Parish to another is allowed and why not to a separate Cogregation 16. Tender Consciences ought thus to be relieved 17. It is against Christian charity to deny this liberty 18. This Liberty will prove the best means of Uniformity 19. What if we have liberty from the State to gather Churches 20. Some things may be tolerated that are thought unlawful 21. Multitudes that cannot conform must live without some ordinances all their days 22. Those that separate have given good Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness And have used all means first to know the mind of Christ 23. You charge us with Schism to render us odious All these were Independent Arguments in 1644. how they commensed to be Presbyterian in 1672. I know not But this I know that then the Presbyterians were not shy to declare gathering Churches out of our Churches under all flourishes and iittle pretenses was a Schismatical and dangerous Separation and not to be allowed For which they gave the world not onely their Authority but such Reasons as you have heard but shall never see answered Some of their Propositions follow Some of the Presbyterian Assertions whereby they refelled the foresaid Independent pretenses for gathering Churches as more at large appeareth in the Dialogue are these 1. OUr Parochial Congregations are true Churches 2. To make one a Member of such a Church it is sufficient that he professeth Christianity and lives in the Parish and he may claim Communion thereupon 3. The old Non-Conformists did not separate from the Parish Churches or renounce Membership though they thought kneeling at the Communion unlawful and I may add had as much cause to complain of Persecution and want of Reformation as any have now but did some of them with Zeal and Learning defend our Churches against those of the Separation 4. None ought to be indulged but such as agree with the establishment as to the substance of Doctrine and Worship 5. These should not be indulged so far as to separate and gather new Churches 6. This is Schism and the means of confusion in the Church and in Families 7. None are to be allowed to withdraw Communion in things wherein they agree with us But in all such things they ought to retain Communion with the Congregation where they live 8. The Separatists holding our Churches to be true Churches is an Aggravation of their Separation 9. To depart from Churches me acknowledg to be true is not to hold Communion with them as such but rather by departing to declare them not to be such 10. To leave all Ordinary communion in any Church with Dislike when Opposition or Offence offers it self is â—o Separate in the Scripture-Sense and was not in being in the Apostles times unless by false Teachers 11. All who professed Christianity in the Apostles times held Communion together notwithstanding differences in Judgment or corruptions in Practice 12. The Judgment of pure and impure Ordinances is not to be left to the alone discretion of a particular Person 13. To Separate from those Churches Ordinarily and Visibly with whom occasionally you may joyn without Sin seemeth to be a most unjust Separation 14. It is one thing to Remove to a Congregation that is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a different constitution In the one a man retaineth his Membership in the other he Renounceth it 15. Testimonies of Godliness are no infallible Protections against Schism 16. 'T is no breach of Charity to hinder all unjust Separaions 17. A man may want the Lords Supper with less Danger then to purchase it by a sinful Separation 18. The Church is not bound to Indulge a Liberty to Erring Consciences especially to the evident disturbance of her own Peace 19. No pretences of tenderness of Consciences or of Edification or of enjoying all Ordinances or of holding Communion with us as Saints in the Church Catholick or of Occasional Communion with us as a particular Church or of holding communion with us as far as they â—re able or that they cannot joyn with us without Sin or lastly no acceptions that they take either against our Officers or Members None of these or any such can warrant a Sepaparation from us or gathering new Churches out of ours For these make not the Cause of a just separation which ought to appear ex natura rei Rememmber from whence thou art faln FINIS ERRATA PAge 33. Line 2. Read Not only for Wrath but also for Conscence sake Rom. 13. 5. p. 34. l. 14. dele and. p. 35. l. 18. r. things p. 40. l. 1. r. Subterfuges p. 54. l. 21. r. should not be p. 78. l. 17. r. our Government Some Books Printed for and sold by James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. OBservations upon Military and Political Affairs by the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Folio price 6. s. A Sermon Preached by Seth Lord Bishop of Sarum at the Funeral of the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Quarto price 6. d. Philosophia Pia or A Discourse of the Religious tendences of the Experimental Philosophy to which is added a Recommendation and Defence of Reason in the Affairs of Religion by Joseph Glanvil Rector of Bath Octavo price 2 s. 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The Judgment of the Learned and Pious St. Augustine concerning Penal Laws against Conventicles and for Unity in Religion delivered in his 48 Epistle to Vincentius FINIS
HUMBLE ADVICE TO THE CONFORMING AND NON-CONFORMING MINISTERS AND PEOPLE How to behave themselves under the present Liberty By the AUTHOR of Toleration not to be abus'd LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. ADVICE TO THE CONFORMISTS and Non-Conformists SOme that think I have sufficiently discovered both the sin and the danger of the present Separation desire I would further consider what may be seasonable to offer by way of remedy but when the foundations are out of course what can I say or do Our Church now suffers as the Church of Corinth did by Schism and prophaneness and we have noted that our Divisions and Separations are the cause of General the first which as I have shewn in another place can no way be fully removed but by our reunion in the publick Temple Worship as our prophaneness the other great mischief and disease of the time by a speedy and hearty and general reformation of life There is a comfort attending good endeavours even when there is but little hope of success wherefore if it be not a presumption to follow the example of one otherwise minded I shall venture to produce my direction and what I humbly conceive to be the present duty both of the Conformists and Non-Conformists in order to the securing the Church from total shipwreck in the present storm adding my petition also that both would lay it to heart It is a time of liberty and men are very apt to do what seemeth right in their own eyes and I could even wish that they would do so in earnest if they would first wipe off the dust of prejudice and passion For I doubt not but we are generally convinced by the Gospel which we all profess that it is indeed our duty and interest too to love one another yea to forbear and yield to one another yea to deny our selves in the little satisfaction of having our own wills and our own ways in small and indâ—fferent things for the publick good and to follow peace and holiness with a conscience void of offence towards God and all men But that I may be a little more More parcular particular I cannot believe that we indeed differ about the existence of Heaven and Hell or in our notions of true Godliness as some in their heats have intimated or that our wisest Adversaries think whatever they say that the Ecclesiastical Powers and Courts are meerly mercenary or do really and intentionally encourage Vice or discountenance solid and true picty yet my hearty and humble request to them in the first place is that they would consider 1. What the cause of their present Contempt may be and whether something be not too justly imputable to our selves which ought not to be carefully searcht and reform'd before it be too late Methinks 't is adviceable now you have so little to do with Schism that you so turn the edge of your power against prophanness as it may appear you are as heartily against this as that and that none may think any longer they have cause to leave us as enemies to God and godliness and good men I have reason to affirm that zeal was never guilty of a grosser slander then by saying that the present Clergy of the Church of England is generally ignorant The Clergy idle prophane and opposers of godliness under which guilt I heartily pray that none may die impenitent Sure if this zeal had any ground or love it would be more Regular and follow Mr. Baxter's good advice and by proper complaint and proof endeavour at least our Reformation or Ejection But 't is too too uncharitable and groundless I am confident it is nearer to truth to say that this Church hath not been blessed with a more Able regular and pâ—ous Clergy these hundred years and then I might say a thousand then at present which I mention not to flatter but to encourage my brethren to perseverance and continuance in Well-doing under all such haâ—d Speeches of ignorance and malice against them Yet it cannot be denied that Too many faulty the few ignorant and scandalous Ministers found here and there amongst us are too many and untill the power of the Bishops both as to the Admission and ejection of Ministers be more enlarged and better Countenanâ—'d by Law we may wish a through amendment in this particular till our hearts ake yet these slanderers might know that the Church is purged of some such notorious Scandalous persons daily where the power of the Church can do it and where it cannot we should pity and not clamcur Would the Patrons be pleased to Patrons consider their great trust a little better they might lay a foundation of better hopes for the fuâ—ure and O that the Lord of the Harvest would put it into all their hearts not onely to dispose of their gifts freely but wisely and first to take advice with able unconcerned persons before they present their Clerks to the Bishâ—p that there might be no temptation upon him to admit the unworthy for fear of a Quare impedit But my brethren I mean you who are not ashamed to be called Conformists may not conscience of our duty supply all the real or supposed defects in the Law why should any of our lâ—ves be a shame to the best profession why should Omission male-Administration of our Office cause the Philistims to triumph or blaspheme that holy Name by which we are called both as Christians and Ministers Do our Enemies strike us in Malice and is it not in our power to turn it to our benefit Let the Dagger that is intended to stab open our Impostume and let out our Corruption 1. Consider your Calling and Do your whole Office know that both God and man and the Souls of your People and the credit of Religion and and the present Security of the Church of God expects your diligence and faithfulness in the Duties of it and it is but râ—cason your Enemies being Judges One that is no great Friend saith of us They sâ—ould consider that Reflect on Toleration not to â—e abused â—3 the Declaration requires of them exact Câ—nsormity and indeed it is but reasonable saith he that those who will Conform should be exact in the doing of it Let not the abuse of Liberty in others wear out the Sence or abate the performance of your Office for you know you are obliged both to be Sincere and Intire wanting nothing either of Inward or Outward Worship required at your hands Thus you will fulfil your Ministry indeed and doubt not but Duty will ever answer it self to God and Man when little Arts and Devices for Sinister ends run into the dark to hide themselves 2. Why should it be said that Preach better the Non-Conformists do out preach us Have they better Parts or more Learning It cannot be said Hath Use procured them a better Habâ—t or Knack of Preaching as they call
famous Case of the Recabites They â—bstained from Wine in obedience â—o their Fathers command after â—e was dead and all fear of his â—rath was gone Now what â—ould move or oblige them but Conscience Conscience I say â—ot that the matter was otherwise commanded by God or was for the publick good but â—n honour to their dead Parent which God commanâ—ed Thereâ—ore we find God approves accepts and rewards it Which vâ—ry thing proves it was ultimately and really an obedience to Gods own Will for God approves accepts and rewards nothing elsé But the foresaid Author pursues J. H. His second Principle his discourse to a Principle â—hat seems to me of more dangerous consequences to Government P. 112 c. That hâ—mane Powers may not lawfully cemmand or inforce any thinâ— against the Conscieâ—ces or perswasions of the Consciences of thâ— Subject even in civil concernâ— And for this instance he is venturous to say that a Tax may bâ— P. 118. laid upon the People yet if anâ— one resuses to pay it as one oâ— the Fifth Monarchy he observes may possibly in point of Conscience do though distress may bâ— taken for the publick good yet thâ— person may not lawfully be punished for not paying it Anâ— thus his matter runs smoothly but if we may have leave to make choice of an Instance â— think he will desire no furtheâ— answer in this particular E. G. The Law of God is the Rule of Conscience This Law is Negative as well as Affirmative and binds the Conscience equally in both respects So far we are agreed Nâ—w admit a man of the Fifth Monarchy or a number of such men shall think they are bound in Conscience by virtue of some plain Text in the Revelations to destroy the Wicked to set up the Government of Jesus Christ in his Saints and from that of the Psalmist in order to this great work to bind the Kings of the Earth in Chains and our Nobles in Fetters of Iron Seriously say what think you of this Case may not the Sword of the Magistrate be made a terrour to such evil Doers may not those bloody Consciences be restrained by commands and menaces may not these bloody hands be cut off and punished may not Conscientious Murther be revenged no little Artifices of mans wit no cunning Subterfugs of debaucheâ— Consciences can possibly race out that indeleble Law of Nature and the God of Nature he that shedeth mans blood by man shall his blood be shed And if the like colour from Conscience be put upon Theft Adultery or any of the sins against our Neighbour they may easily receive a like Answer You will say perhaps these are evil by virtue of Gods command before mans Law was made true so also 't is a good which God requires before the Tax be made that we should give to every one his due Tribute to whom Tribute Custom to whom Custom And I am apt to think that what is given to King Charles by our selves in Parliament is as due to him as what was exacted by Caesars command was to Caesar I am afrâ—id I shall trouble that Ingenious Authâ—r otherwise I should mind him that by such Principles the Non-Conformists are not likâ—ly to carry it in point of Loyalty or tendency to Publick Good which draw both Râ—ligion and Justice and prâ—pâ—rly it self under such Authority of private Conscience as unhâ—ngâ—th Government And to say no worse leave all those precious things in an unestablished condition But I spare them for he many times seems to explain himself a great deal better then his Principle will bear him out And sometimes especially towards the latter end of his Book when he had better considered the Consequences of it he more then seems to suspect it and resolves all into the Prudence of the Governour no doubt finding his distinction of the Power of restraint and coustraint would not serve him in all emergencies Let him consider the Law of God obligeth us to do as well as to omit Accordingly Conscience ruled by its apprehensions of that Law obligeth us to both Or whether it do so or no it may be perswaded it doth and that 's all one And though Conscience err yet it is to us as God and by obeying it we obey God and it is above all humane Authority Therefore the Magistrate hath no power to enforce me not to do my apprehended duty or to punish me if I do it though it be to murther the innocent as in the Case before He abhors the consequence but whose are the premises After all this and supposing some of us to be really guilty either of ignorance scandal idleness or imprudence in the aforesaid particulars I cannot be so fond as to believe that this is the chief cause of the present Separation whatever is pretended my Reason is because it hath hitherto so happened as a demonstration to the contrary that where the Dissenters themselves acknowledge their Parish Ministers freest from snch exceptions and all other there is generally the greatest cause to bewail Separation Consequently I have no great No hopes yet do your duties encouragement without a miracle to beleive that if you should reform every thing that is really amiss in you or that they complain of while you are true to the duties of your places the Separation will much abate upon it However you have other sufficient Motives to quicken you other Persons to account with Therefore sâ—t the fear of God and the good of the Church before you and remove all appearances of evil from your selves and all occasions of evil speaking from the Dissenters And let nothing discourage you in your Studies and cares to amend what â—s amiss to persevere in well doing to fulfil your Ministry and to receive your Crown And if notwithstanding your uttermost endeavours to prevent it they will be offended and forsake your Churches bear it as your Cross Pray sor your Enemies with the patience of Christians and the courage of the men of God And however they treat you or the Church cease not to pity and pray for them as you are taught Pray for them though your Enemies Though they slander you and persecute you and for nothing else but the truth's sake as they Apostle That it may please thee to forgive our Enemies Persecutors and Slanderers and turn their Hearts Pray for them as Sheep that are gone astray that it may please thee to bring into the way of truth such as have erred and are deceived We beseech thee to hear as good Lord. Now my Brethren I humbly and earnestly beseech you to pardon my freedome with you Onely take it by the right handle and I know you cannot take it amiss Seeing 't is said I have dealt smartly with our Adversaries if I should not deal plainly with you I should neither follow my Example nor answer my Reprover But I have a word or two also ad populum for our Conforming
authority viz. that where the Word of God is truly preach'd and the Sacraments rightly administred there is a true Church Mr. Baxter hath room enough for his large Charity to think they are all true Churches though Schismatical That is though they are made up of Sheep gone astray from their proper Folds to which they yet owe themselves and ought to return A Dialogue BETWIXT THE INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN About gathering of CHURCHES Taken out of a Book called the Grand Debate and Papers therein Printed as they were given in to the Committy of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Acommodation 1644. Printed in 1648. LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. TO THE Reader Good Reader PErhaps thou mayest censure me too severe with my Answerers in expposing this old difference to a publick review but why then did they give me so great an advantage and provoke me to take it in my own defense Why did they Scandalize the World and many of their own Friends too who are yet living Witnesses of that so notorious a contest by mincing the matter seeming shy to acknowledge that the then Presbyterians were against gathering new Churches out of the Parochial To say nothing of their opinion of Toleration For what Toleration as to our purpose could they that were Presbyterians be thought â—â— indulge who so stifly refused to allow it to their Independent Brethren particularly in the very point of gathering Churches In this following Dialogue you have no feigned disguise on either side but both speaking over again their own Sense and Reason and words throughout almost verbatim As they were given in by themselves to the Committee of the long Parliament as appears in the second part of the grand Debate published by Persons intrusted by both Parties By way of Introduction You need not be remembred that the Presbyterians were earnest for an establishment with Uniformity and did declare that the Members of particular Congregations do cohabit and live together within certain bounds and Precincts of a Parish p. 6. n. 9. The Independents not well satisfied moved for an Indulgence and the Dialague may be supposed to begin thus A DIALOGUE Betwixt the INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN Taken out of Papers given to the Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Accomodations 1644. Printed 1648. Indep WE are not against your Rule and the establishment you desire onely we cannot in Conscionce be so confined And therefore we desire liberty to worship God in our own way by our selves Presh We are not altogether against an Indulgence but we would have none allowed the benefit of it but such as agree with us as to the substance of their Faith and Worship Indep Therefore you cannot deny it to us who thus agree with you Presh 1. But your desire plainly holds out a total separation As if our Churches were not to be communicated with in any thing which should argue Church-Communion and more could not be said or done against false Churches 2. It also plainly holds out the lawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches yea they add by way of aggravation the cause of our Reflecters mistake such true Churches as endeavour further to reform Whereof we are assured there is not the least hint of an Example in the Word of God 3. This liberty would pull down what the Parliament would set up and would give you a greater priviledge then we enjoy who are under the Rule of establishment 4. This would give countenance to a perpetual Schism and Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule c. and introduce all manner of confusion in Families where the Members are of several Churches Indep What liberty then are you contented to allow us that differ from you almost in nothing but matters of Government Presb. None may be allowed upon differences onely in matter of Government to withdraw Communion from us in things wherein they declare an agreement There may be no such indulgence granted to any as may constitute them in distinct Congregations as to those parts of worship where they can joyn in Communion with us Onely some expedient may be found to bear with them in the particulars wherein they cannot agree with us Indep What expedient Presb. Such as through scruple or error of Conscience cannot joyn to partaâ—e of the Lords Supper shall repair to the Minister and Elders for satisfaction in their Scruples which if they cannot receive they shall not be compelled to communicate Provided that in all other parts of worship they joyn with the Congregation in which they live and be under the Government of that Congregation So far you have in p. 18 19 20 c. Indep If this be all we must be pâ—ain with you We can't joyn with you without sin We would not liâ—ve without Ordinances And for the enjoyment of them for for our edâ—fiâ—cation we would joyn in another Congregation Yet so as not condemning those Churches we joyn not with as false but still preserving all Christian Communion with the Saints of the same body of the Church Catholick and joyn with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as we are able If this be called Schisme or the countenance of Schism it is more than we have yet learned p. 36. Is not this a very fair Plea It was once Independency And the Presbyterians then answer'd to it in every particular Indep We cannot without sin to us enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ and partake of all duties of worship as Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is And what would you have us do Presb. If you cannot in all yet partake in as many duties and ordinances as you can And let the Indulgence onely supply that wherein you cannot and not exempt you universally in that wherein you can But we desire you would speak freely and candidly Can you enjoy any one Ordinance in our Congregation as Members We should be glad to hear from you that you can be Members of that Congregation where your dwelling is p. 70. Indep But you know we cannot live without Ordinances for our edification Therefore for our spiritual good we may lawfully joyn in another Congregation Presb. 1. This will not follow upon your own Concession For you consess you can occasionally joyn with us without sin and why not constantly 2. Your Conscience may erre And the Church is no way bound to indulge a liberty then especially to the evident disturbance of her own peace 3. Whatever indulgence is granted let this be the boundary of it which is given by our Brethren themselves viz. that such as give no Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness such as have not used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ such as do condemn those Churches which they joyn not with as
they are all but the mediums to liberty and exemptions from Government Indep But living in a Parish doth not make us Members of the Church Presb. We grant it a man must in order of Nature first be a Member of the Church visible and then living in a Parish and making profession of Christianity he may claim admission into the Society of Christians within those bounds and enjoy the Ordinances which are there dispensed Indep Where is your Christian Charity We would edifie our selves the best we can and though we differ but in very small matters you will not suffer us Presb. Can you not be edified without Scandalizing the Church of God we leave to all men to judge whose Charity is greatest their 's who labour to preserve union or theirs who resolve to separate and break it We think Charity binds Christians to prevent all unjust and needless Separation We wonder at your Charity that coming so near us in Doctrine and worship nothing should content you but a Separation p. 105 106. Indep We cannot in Conscience set down where we cannot enjoy all the Ordinances p. 122. Presb. 1. Have you all the Ordinances in your own Churches 2. Do you not hold ruling Elders to be an Ordinance have you these Or be your Churches without some one ordinance and not ours 3. To determine Controversies of Faith cases of conscience judicially is an Ordinance If you must be of no Church but where that is exercised and the liberty of opinions restrained your Churches would be soon destroyed And you would find it we believe difficult to gather more Indep This would prove the best means of Uniformity and Conjunction to allow us distinct Churches according to our own Principles Presb. This is a Riddle we wonder how disjunction can be the only way of Conjunction and Multiformity of Uniformity and Separation of Communion and different Principles and Practises of Conformity What Churches under Heaven may we not hold Conjunction Uniformity and Communion with upon such terms p. 123. Indep But tender Consciences ought to be relieved Presb. We desire to know whether every Persons bare â—lleadging tenderness of Conscience shall be sufficient to warrant his deserting our Congregations p. 49. 2. We much doubt whether such tenderness as ariseth out of an opâ—nion oui potest subesse falsum when the Conscience is so tender that it may also be an erring Conscience can be a sufficient ground to justifie such material Separation as our Brethren plead for For though it may bind to forbear or suspend the Act of Communion in that particulur wherein men conceive they cannot hold Communion without sin yet it doth noâ— bind to follow such a positiv prescript as possibly may be diverse from the Will and Counseâ— of God Of which kind wâ— conceive this of gathering separated Churches out of other truâ— Churches to be one p. 51. Indep In case the Lords Supper be not administred in parity a â—emoval is allowed ordinarily Now we would only gather our selves into other Churches for â—urer enjoyment as to our Conâ—ciencis of all ordinances p. 50 51. Presb. We conceive the ground of your Separation from â—ne Church and gathering oâ—hers to this end that you may â—e preserved from sinning â—gainst your Conscieâ—ces and â—or the purer enjoyment of Orâ—inances may to men of other â—udgments be a ground to crave â—oleration for separating from Churches which are pure and â—athering impure and corrupt Churches out of them p. 50. It was never the meaning of â—he Assemblies to leave the Judgâ—ent of pure or impure Ordinances to this Case unto the alone discretion of a particular Person But before any leave 〈◊〉 Parochial Congregation ordinarily he ought to declare the Cause of his grievance that if it may be his removal may be prevented Except he think fit to change his dwelling in which Case his removal is without offence Indep VVhy may it not be as lawful to go to a separate Congregation for relief as to remove our dwelling to another Parish Presb. It is one thing to remove to a Congregation which is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a dâ—fferent constitution from the Rule In the one a maâ— retains his Membership in the other he renounceth it p. 52. Indep If the purest Churches in the VVorld unto our Judgement in all other respects should impose as a condition in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper any one thing that such tender Consciences cannot Joyn in as suppose kneeling if they remove from these Churches and have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches to enjoy this and other Ordinances â—here is no Separation Presb. 1. If a Church require that which is evil of any Member he must forbear to do it yet without Separation and waite on Gods Providence in the dispensation of that Church till all remedies have been tryed 2. He that is in this kind oppressed may be relieved by Appeal or change his dwelling 3. They who thought kneeling in the Act of Communion to be unlawful either in England or Scotland did separate or renounce Membership but did some of them with Zeal and Learâ—ing defend our Churches against those of the Separation Indep But we hope you will not question us if we have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches Presb. The Nature of Separation is not to be measured by civil Acts or State but by the Word of God what notion you have of it we know not but surely to leave all ordinary Communion in any Church with dâ—slike when opposition or offence offers it self is to separate from such a Church in the Scripture since such a Separation was not in the Apostles times unless it were used by false Teachers all who professed Christianity held Communion together notwithstanding differences of Judgment or Corruptions in practise p. 55. Indep Our Churches cannot be thought to be guilty of a plain and total Separation unless we did wholly in all things differ by setting up altogether differing Rules of Constitution VVorship and Government Presb. Of this Assertion we expect some proof We read not the like in any Author antient or modern Under this pretense Novatians Donatists all that ever were thought to separate may shelter themselves who themselves boasting of their Separation the most rigid Separatists hold the same Rule of worship and government for substance with you We desire you to consider if every small and circumstantial difference amongst those who agree in most things and those most substantial shall be a sufficient ground to gather Churches out of Churches into a separate and distinct Communion how the Churches of God shall ever be kept free from Rents and Divisions and how the Peace thereof is possible to be preserved Indep But as we hold your Churches to be true Churches so we are ready to hold occasional Communion with them Presb. 1. You have estranged your selves from us hitherto and we have reason to question in what