Cyprians time 1 No certaine forme of electing commaunded in Scripture 166. 1 Diuersitie of Elections in the Apostles times 167. 197 〈◊〉 Varietie vsed in Elections 〈◊〉 Reasons for the election by the people ansvvered 17 c. Elections by the multitude for the most part tumultuous 1 1 Electiō forbidden to the people 1 8 Three kindes of election in the Apostles time 1 Election and ordination may concurr 〈◊〉 Contention in popular electiōs 2 5 206. 213. 214. Reasons against popular electio 211 c. Popular elections an impedimen 〈◊〉 the ciuill Magistrate 〈◊〉 ¶ Emperours haue had the deci of ecclesiastical 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Councels sommoned by 〈◊〉 pag. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ England not bound to the ples of other churches 7 ¶ Epaphroditus an Apostlt 〈◊〉 ¶ Ephes. 4. no perfit pat 〈◊〉 423. c. Ephes. 4. dis ssed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ Epiphanius busied with ciu l ses 〈◊〉 Epiphanius alloweth superioritie pag. 4 The writings of Epiphanius 402 The whole Epistle to Timothe no commaundement 637 Epistie and Gospell in the church pag. 58 c ¶ Equalitie of Ministers wil pull on the equalitie of all estates 455 VVhy the Admonitors seeke equalltie 459 Equalitie of Ministers quoad m i sterium 389. c. Equalitie made a cloake for ambition 55. 459 VVhat kinde of Equalitie is pretended 299 ¶ Errours and daungerous doctrine of the Replyer 4 4. 50. 77. 82. 〈◊〉 120. 176. 180. 265. 307. 518. 532. 541. 566. 568. 582 621. 622. 646. 694. 784 A grosse Errour 151 ¶ Euangelistes remaine 229. Euangelistes haue an ordiuarie function 217 ¶ Eusebius gouernour of mo Churches than one 698. ¶ Eustathius deposed for apparell page 270. 271. ¶ Examples what they proue 506. 512. Examples of Luther c. against the Admonition 148. VVhat exāples of the Apostles times must be followed 101. Particular examples maye sometime be followed 516. A general doctrine may not be concluded of a singular exāple 562 A man may follow the example of him that is not continually with him 241 Examples of T. C. against him selfe 68. 152. 374. 395. 396. ¶ Exhortatiōs particular moue more than generall 601 ¶ Excommunication 660. c. Only ministers maye excommunicate 661 Excommunication more than exclu ding from externall societie 665 Excommunication not the only punishmēt of the church 764 The people not ministers but witnesses of Excommunication 666 Want of Excommunication no iust cause of separation frō the church pag. 81 Excommunication by one 665 c. Excōmunicate persons not receiued before publike repentance 671 VVhen Excommunication shoulde be ministred 673 Hovv the whole Church is sayde too Excommunicate 673 Bishops alone did Excommunicate pag. 678. 677. 679 The practise in Augustines tyme of Excommunication 678 A kind of ciuil Excommunic 679 F ¶ Falsifications of the Replier 49. 86. 107. c. 144. 184. 186. 203. 209 222. 268. 302. 314. 326. 350. 357. 370. 412 413. 415. 439. 467. 479. 547. 584. 669. 6 0. 673. 675. 698. 797. Errour and disorder mayntayned by falsifying 485 A False collection vppon Musculus wordes 67 ¶ Fasting on the Saboth day 99. 102 Fasting on the lordes day wicked pag. 99. 102 ¶ Fayth cometh by reading 252 No man knoweth who be Faythful pag. 621 ¶ Flauianus Archbishop 338 ¶ Caius Fimbria 708 ¶ The fourth Finger 723 ¶ Fontes 614 ¶ Diuersitie betwixt spiritual Food and externall 556 ¶ Forgery seeketh corners 338 ¶ Maister Foxe alloweth of Archbishops c. 421. ¶ Freewill doctrine thought not too be repugnant to saluation 82 Doctrine of Freewill raseth the foūdation of faith 82 83 ¶ Funerall sermons 732. c. Funerall sermons compared to Tren tals 732 Funerall sermons allowed by Caluin 732 The order of the primitiue church in Funeralls 734 Funerall sermons serue to comforte those that are greeued 735 An absurde argument against Funerall sermons 735 Funeral sermōs most necessary wher there are most papistes 736 G ¶ Gedeons Ephod 711 ¶ Getils tooke their Images for gods pag. 151 Gentils and papistes not like in all respectes 475 Gentils and Iewes liad somethings common 475 ¶ Gennadius 472 ¶ Gifts of god bestowed by meanes pag. 645 Howe euery function hath giftes needfull 316 ¶ Gloria patri 489. 496 Gloria in excelsis 602 All seeke not the glory of God that pretend it 42 ¶ Godlynesse breaketh no lawes 810 Godlines required in gouernors 684 All Godly men are not meete to gouerne 684 ¶ Godfathers their promis 612. c The promise of Godfathers restrayned to their power 612 Godfathers allowed by T. C. 613 Godfathers once disallowed and after recanted 798. 782 ¶ Good things may come from euil men 746 Good men defaced by those which do no good 241 ¶ Gouernement in the Cleargie not forbiddē but the kind of Gouernment 62 The pretence of restoring right Gouernment a cloak for further mis chief 2 Gouernement of one by lawe better thā of many without lawe 378 Three kinds of lawfull gouernment pag. 650 Matters of the kind of gouernment not necessarie to saluation 80 Two kinds of gouernment of the Church 80 In what respect gouernment is necessarie 81 The Church not tyed to one kind of Gouernment 81. 98. 640. 678. c. The kind of Gouernment alterable by M. Beza his iudgement 660. Gouernours in the Church 630 Diuers circumstances alter Gouernment 639. 659. 660. Gouernment of the Church Monarchicall 641 The Gouernment of the Common wealth ought not to be framed to the Gouernment of the Church 646. c. Spirituall Gouernment taketh not a way ciuill Magistracie 756 The Gouernment of the Church not only spirituall 756. 789 Gouernour in the Church not of the Church 789 ¶ Gregorie Bishop of Pontus 471 Gregorie made the Letanie 489 Gregorie for George 447 H ¶ Heretiks loose not their baptisme pag. 622 ¶ Hemingius alloweth superio itie pag. 419. c ¶ Hierome of the degree of Bishops aboue other Ministers 369. c. Hieromes Presbyterie and the Repli ers agree not 652 ¶ Holidayes 538. c The vse of Holydayes a stoppe to superstition 539 The Iewes appointed Holydayes 543 The Ievves had moe Holydayes than we 545 Holydayes obserued in reformed Churches 548 Difference betwixt Popishe Holy-dayes and ours 554 ¶ Homilies 715. c. Our Homiles free from errour 715 Some Homilies better than some ser mons 716 Homilies of Fathers red in the church 719. 720. Homilies read commendable 296 Bucers opinion of Homilies 719 Rvdleis iudgement of Homilies 720 ¶ The title of most honorable Lord giuen to Bishops 448 I ¶ Iames Bishop of Ierusalem 470. 384. ¶ Idolatrous sacrificers may bee Ministers 143. c. Three kindes of Idolatrie 152 Idolatrous thinges turned to common vse 273 Idolatrous things conuerted too the honor and seruice of God 284 ¶ Kneling at the name of Iesus 741 VVhy christians bowed at the name of Iesus 742 ¶ Maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops 422. c. Maister Iewell slaundered by T. C. pag. 422 ¶ The Iewes had their ceremonies particularly
well and conueniently be But for so muche as you afterwarde make mention of excommunication and other censures of the Churche whiche are forerunners vnto excommunication I take it that you meane the externall gouernment of the Churche and that kynde of gouernment And yet muste I aske you another question that is whyther you meane that this gouernmente and kynde of gouermente is necessarye at all tymes or then when the Churche is collected together and in suche place where it maye haue gouernment For you knowe that the Churche is sometymes by persecution so dispersed that it appeareth not as we reade Apocal. 6. Nor hath anye certayne place to remayne in so that it can not haue anye externall gouernment or exercise of any discipline But to be shorte I confesse that in a Churche collected togither in one place and In what specte gouernment is necessarie at libertie gouernment is necessarie in the seconde kinde of necessitie but that any one kynde of gouernment is so necessarie that withoute it the Churche can not be saued or that it maye not be altered into some other kynde thought to be more expedient I vtterly denye and the reasons that moue me so to doe be these The firste is bycause I fynde no one certaine and perfitte kynde of gouernmente Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certayne kinde of externall gouernment prescribed or commaunded in the Scriptures to the Churche of Christ which no doubt shoulde haue bene done if it had bene a matter necessarie vnto the saluation of the Church Secondly bycause the essentiall notes of the Churche be these onely The true preaching of the worde of God and the righte administration of the Sacramentes Onely two essentiall notes of the church for as Maister Caluine sayth in his Booke agaynst the Anabaptistes Thys honour is meete to be gyuen to the worde of God and to his Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we Caluine aduer Anabap. see the worde of God truely preached and God accordyng to the same truely worshypped and the Sacramentes wythoute superstition administred there we maye wythoute all controuersie conclude the Churche of God to be and a little after so muche we muste esteeme the worde of God and hys Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we fynde them to be there we maye certaynely knowe the Churche of God to be althoughe in the common life of men manye faultes and errours be founde The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers and the iudgement of the reformed Confess Heb uetica cap. 17. Churches as appeareth by their confessions So that notwythstanding gouernment or some kynde of gouernment maye be a parte of the Churche touching the outwarde forme and perfection of it yet is it not suche a parte of the essence and being but that it may be the Churche of Christ without this or that kinde of gouernment and therefore the kynde of gouernmente of the Churche is not necessarie vnto saluation The Church of Corinth when Paule did write vnto it was the Church of Christ for so doth he call it 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth giue vnto it a singular commendation and yet it had not at that time when he so commendeth it that kynde of gouernment and discipline that you meane of that is excommunication as appeareth 1. Cor. 5. My thirde reason is this If excommunicatiō which is a kind of gouernment be necessarie to saluation then any man may separate him selfe from euerie Church wherin is no excommunication but no man may separate himselfe from euery Church wherin is no excommunicatiō therfore excommunication which is a kynde of gouernment is not necessarie to saluation The first proposition is euident for no man is bounde to remaine in that Churche where any thing is wanting without the which he cannot want of excōmunication is no iust cause of separation from any Churche be saued As for the seconde proposition that is to saye that no man ought to separate him selfe from euerie Churche where excommunication is not bycause it is learnedly proued by suche as haue written against the Anabaptistes who both dyd teache and practise the contrarie it shall be sufficient to referre you vnto them Maister Caluine in hys Booke against the Anabaptistes fayth thus Herein is the controuersie Caluine aduer Anabap. betwixte the Anabaptistes and vs that they thinke there is no Church where this gouernment meaning excommunication is not appointed or not vsed and exercised as it ought to be nor that a Christian mā there ought to receiue the Supper and vnder that pretence they separate themselues from the Churches where the worde of God is truely preached c. M. Bullinger also in his sixt booke against the Anabaptistes saith This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. aduer Anabap. do vrge that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no excommunication the whiche they vse To these therefore we answere that the Churche of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Paule to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of excommunication in it c. of the same iudgement is M. Gaulter writing vpon Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth 5. VVhilest the Anabaptistes persuade themselues that there can be no discipline wythout excommunication they trouble the Churches euery where c. In the same Chapter he sayth that there is no one certaine kinde of gouernment or discipline prescribed to y e Churches but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require His words among other be these Let euery Church follow Ibidem that maner of discipline which doth most agree with the people with whō it abideth and which seemeth to be most fit for the place and time And let no man here rashely prescribe vnto others neither let him binde all Churches to one and the same forme But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter where it shall appeare howe farre this learned man M. Gualter is from allowing that kinde of g uernment now in this state of the Churche the which T. C. woulde make vs to beléeue to be so necessarie This haue I briefely set downe not to disalowe discipline or gouernment for I thinke it very conuenient in the Church of Christ nor yet to reiect excommunicatiō which also hath a necessarie vse in the gouernment of the Church but to declare that this assertion can not stande with the truth with learning that the kynde of gouernment meaning as I thinke some one certaine kinde of externall gouernment is necessarie to saluation Chap. 1. the thirde Diuision T. C. Page 14. Sect. 1. 2. And it is no small iniurie which you do vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narrow roome as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our Religion or as though the substance of Religion or some rude and
wher none are offered you choose to carpe at first The Lordes daye whiche we call Sonday and you saye that you will not dispute whether it ought or may be changed or no when as you should rather haue proued it to be appointed by the scriptures which no doubt you would haue done if you coulde for that is it whych I denye Where haue you hearde mée say that it may or ought to bée altered if you will confute confute that whyche I haue sette downe and affirme not that whiche it pleaseth you to imagine In good sooth this is no true dealyng No maruell it is that you haue not sette downe my booke séeing you deale thus corruptely with it I doe not thinke that The determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered that whiche the Churche hath once determined and by long continuance proued to be necessarie ought to be altered without great and especiall consideration I saye with Sainct Augustin Epist. 118. ad Ianuar. If any thyng be vniuersallye obserued of the whole Churche not to obserue that or to call it into question is meere madnesse therfore Aug. ep 118. seing that it hath had suche time of continuaunce that it was for so good and iuste causes appoynted and is so generallye obserued of the Churche I doe not thynke it nowe arbitrarie nor to be chaunged muche lesse doe I make it as arbitrarie or chaungeable as the place and houre of prayer whiche may be diuers in diuers churches and it is among those rites and orders that be diuersly obserued in diuers places wherof also August maketh mention in that Epistle Surely as there had bene little iudgement in me if I had made it chaungeable so is there small honestie in you to alter my wordes and to falsifie my meaning Secondly you myslike that I should say The scripture not to haue appointed discipline or correction for such as shall contemne the cōmon Prayers and hearing the worde of God And you aske me where my iudgement was but I haue more cause to deiliaulide of you where that learning and skill Scriptures vnskilfully alledged by T. C. is which you so muche bragge of séeing that you so vnskilfully alledge the Scriptures against their true meaning and sense For where haue you learned that Christ in the. 18. of Mathew dothe appointe any generall rule for publike offences suche as negligence and contempt in frequenting publike Prayers and hearing of the word of God is The very words of Christ If thy brother trespasse agay st thee c. do teath Math. 18. that he meaneth not there of open and knowne but of secrete and particular sinnes The which thing also the note that is in the margent of the Bible printed at Geneua myghte haue taught you if you had bene as well disposed to haue followed the same in this place as you séeme to haue doone in other places M. Caluine in his boke agaynst the Anabap. reprouing them for vsing this place to the establishing of their kynde of discipline by excommunication saythe on this sorte They are againe deceyued Caluin aduer Anabap. in that they consider not that the Lorde speaketh in that place of secrete faultes for as for those which are manifest and giue vnto the people cause of offence they are to be corrected by other meanes than by secrete admonitions You muste therfore séeke for some other place than this if you will proue that the Scripture hath appointed any discipline and correction for suche as shall contemne the Common Prayers and hearing of the worde To proue that there are also ciuill punishmentes and punishments of the bodie for contemnyng common prayers and hearing of the worde appointed by the worde of God you cite 22. of Exodus 19. of Deuteronomie c. But before I come to the answering of these places I pray you let me aske of you these questions First whether you would haue both Ecclesiasticall ciuil punishment for the selfe same faulte Secondly whether you woulde haue negligence or contempte in frequenting of common prayers hearing of the word punished with death or no for that punishment is appoynted in those places by you alleaged Last of all whether you thinke the Iudiciall lawes to be perpetual to binde the ciuill Magistrate to the obseruing of them to restrain him from making any other The vnaptnesse of the proofes of T. C. as shall be thought to him most conuenient for except you wil haue two kinds of punishments for one and the self same offence except you will punish with death suche as be negligent in cōming to publike prayers to be shorte except you will haue the ciuill Magistrate bound of necessitie to practise these iudicial lawes of Moses which in déede you affirme afterwardes in your booke those places make nothing for your purpose So that you are yet as farre to séeke for Scripture that appointeth any certaine kinde of discipline for these matters as euer you were But that it may be vnderstode howe vnreasonably you wring wrest the scriptures so make them serue your turne I will in one woorde or two declare y e meaning of those places and set open the might of your argumentes In the. 22. of Exodus the place by you alleaged the punishment of death is appointed Exod. 22. for Idolaters whervpon you would ground this argument God in the. 22. of Exodus appointeth death as a punishment for Idolaters Ergo the word of God appointeth a certain kind of punishment for such as be negligent in frequenting publik prayers and contemne the hearing of the worde I say there is no sequele in this argument vnlesse you wil make all those that be negligent in cōming to publike praiers and cōtemne to heare the word Idolaters and this to be a perpetuall lawe In the 19. of Deuteronomie ther is nothing tending to any such purpose only in the Deut. 19. latter end of the chapter there is a punishment appointed for him that beareth false witnesse whervpon these woords so thou shalt take euill away from the middest of thee c. by you here alledged do folow Now if you will thus conclude God in the. 19. of Deutronomie appointeth a punishment for a false witnesse Ergo the scripture hath appointed discipline for such as neglect to come to publike praiers c. then indéed you may proue any thing it is but in vaine to strine with you But Lord what gybing flouting would there be if I shold bappē to fall into so manifest open absurdities In the. 2. Chro. 15. Aza made the same punishmente for Idolatrie that is mentioned 2 ▪ Chro 1 in the. 22. of Exo. and therefore the same answere serueth that place Truly I thinke you take your selfe to haue frée libertie to applie the scriptures at your pleasure else would you neuer thus abuse them without all iudgement or reason What I thinke of the necessitie or continuance of
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
cap. 5. sayth That it was the office of Pastors and Doctors generally Beza to dispense the worde and to pray vnder the whiche also we comprehend the administration of sacraments and the celebration of mariage according to the cōtinuall custome of the Church although deacons in these things oftentimes supplied the office of pastors And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Ioh. 4. verse 2. So doe other learned men in like maner who also bring for their purpose that which is written Tim. 5. Qui bene praesunt presbyteri c. So that you may vnderstande that learned men be of this iudgement that some may be admitted to administer the sacraments which are not admitted to preache I knowe it to be true that there may be some appoynted to reade in the Churche whiche be not admitted eyther to preache or to administer the Sacramentes For so it was in the primitiue Churche as it is to be séene in auncient stories and wr ters But bicause you would haue nothing vsed in the Churche especially no office appoynted withoute a commaundement in the worde of GOD I praye you tell where you haue eyther commaundemente or example for suche kinde of Readers I doe but demaunde this that the Reader maye vnderstande what libertie you chalenge vnto your selfe of allowing and disalowing what you list and when you list without that warrant of Gods worde to the whiche you so streightly hinde all other Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Page 104. Sect. 4. Besyd s that how can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerie men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roomes which are not able when there are numbers also which are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministerie vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to pleade want of able ministers for this do be ministerie which is altogither vnlawfull yet would this plea neuer be good vntyll suche tyme as bothe those were restored whiche are put out and all other soughte oorth and called vpon which are fitte for that purpose Io. Whitgifte You know what was before alleaged out of the confession of the Churches of Helvetia that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheards in the olde Church did sometimes Confes. Heli more profite the Church than the great exquisite or fine or delicate but a little too proude learning of some others A great sorte thinke too well of themselues be of nature vnquiet Unquiet natures must be remoued suche of necessitie if by no meanes they can be kept in order must be remoued for the Church may not for their sake be rent torne in péeces neyther muste you that so wel allow of discipline burden other men with it cast it off your selues There is none in this Churche of Englande remoued from his ministerie but vpon iust causes and ministers must be subiect to lawes and orders Those that be willing to come into the ministerie lacke no prouoking nor mouing The ministerie hindred by whome thervnto if they be knowne but it is you your company which labour by all meanes possible to dehorte men from the ministerie persuading them that the calling is not ordinary and lawfull And surely your meaning is to make this Church destitute of ministers that it may of necessitie be driuen to admit your platforme and gouernment But you shall neuer be able to bring it to passe the more you labour the more you are detected And those wise men that séeke the truthe in sinceritie of conscience will espie your purposes dayly more and more and be moued to a iuste mis iking of them The restitution of those that be put out of the ministerie I think is soone obteyned if they will submit themselues to the order of the Church which they ought of duetie to doe bothe the lawes of God and man requiring the same Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. vlt. Agayne it can not be sayd iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntil such tyme as better may be gotten for if the Churche could procure able ministers shoulde desire that they myght be ordeyned ouer them they can not obteyne that considering that these reading ministers haue a free holde and an estate for terme of their lyues in those Churches of the whyche they are suche ministers so that by this meanes the sheepe are not onely committed to an Idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwyse than Augustine speaketh in that a not preachyng minister hath entraunce into the Church but the doore also is shut vpon hym and sparred agaynst any able minister that might happily be founde out Io. Whitgifte And would you so gladly intrude your selues into some of their roomes surely I beléeue it it is not vnknowē but that some of you haue labored to do it Wel I hau before tolde you the iudgement of the reformed Churches touching such ministers as be not able to preach béeing otherwise vertuous and godly I haue also set downe the opinion of diuers learned and godly men concerning ministers admitted to minister the sacraments whiche notwithstanding can not preache If any man vse him sel e in his ministerie leau ly or otherwise than beseemeth him hys estate for terme of lyfe is not so sure but that he maye be dispossessed of the same Otherwyse if he vse him selfe honestly and as it becommeth him thoughe he haue not the gifte of preaching whiche notwithstanding is to be wyshed God forbid that eyther you or any man else shoulde seeke to displace him that you might enioy the roome your selues And surely if the minister were but tenant at will or of Courtesie as you would séeme to haue him his state shoulde be moste slauishe and mis rable and he and his family ready to goe a begging when soeuer he displeaseth his parishe If you had tolde me where Augustine speaketh that I shoulde haue quickely let you vnderstand his meaning but his bookes be many large the sentēce you alleage shorte and therefore it were to muche for me to search it out Moreouer it improueth nothing nowe in question But with what face can you loute and iest at me for once or twice not quoting the chapter or leafe your selfe so often offending in quoting neyther chapter leafe booke nor tome Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There is a third fault which likewise appeareth almost in y e whole body of this seruice Lyturgie of Englād that is that the pro ite which might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped whereof the cause is for that he whiche readeth is not in some place hearde and in the moste places not vnderstanded of the people throughe the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
Christ had not beene restreyned by the lawe of God touching the Passeouer vnto his owne familie being twelue and therefore a competent number to eare vp a lambe by themselues that he would haue celebrated his supper not only amongst his xii disciples which (*) They were made Apostles before and so called afterward he made Apostles but also amongst other of his disciples professors of his doctrine But forsomuch as it was meete that he should celebrate his supper there and then where and when he did celebrate his Passouer for the cause before by me alledged it pleased him to keepe his first Supper with twelue onely for that the law of Communication vnto the Passeouer which was ioyned with the supper woulde not admit any greater number of Communicants they being sufficient and enough to eate vp the passeouer Io. Whitgifte This is onely a coniecture but it ouerthroweth your argument for by your saying Christ had his twelue Apostles there at Supper bycause the lawe touching the Passcouer did bind him thereunto not bicause he would signifie that there should be no Communion except the whole Church do communicate The disciples were made Apostles before the institution of the Supper and were so called as it is euident Math. 10. Mark 3. and therefore I maruell what you meane Math. 10. Marke 3. in saying which afterwardes he made Apostles Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be cleare and plaine that when it is sayde drinke ye all of this and ta ie one for another these sayings are ment of that particular congregation or assemblie whiche assemble themselues togither to be taught by one mouth of the Minister yet I haue therefore put this caution of as much as may be possible least any man shoulde cauill as though I woulde haue no Communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete togither Likewise I haue put this caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that any particular Church may communicate at one table in one day and togither yet may the same be inconuenient for diuerse causes As if the number shoulde be verie great so that to haue them all communicate togither it would require such a long time as the tary ng out of the whole action would hazard eyther the life or at least the health of dyuerse there Againe forasmuch as other some being at the Church it is meete that other shoulde be at home vpon occasion of infantes and suche lyke things as require the presence of some to tar e at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences do deliuer vs from the gilt of vncharitablenesse and forsaking the felowship of the Church for that we doe not here seuer onr selues but are by good and iust causes seuered whiche gilt we shall neuer escape if besydes such necessarie causes we pretende those that are not or hauing not so much as a pretence yet notwithstanding separate our selues as the dayly practise through the Church doth shewe Io. Whitgifte If you be content to admit so many cautions and exceptions then is the question soone decyded and you make it no such commaundement but that vpon occasion it may be altered In déede the wordes of Christ do signifie that the cup of the Supper and the whole Supper is common to all as well of the laytie as we terme them as of the clergie but it doth not prescribe what number shall be present at euery seuerall Communion I doe not excuse those that withdrawe themselues from that Supper except it be vpon necessarie and iust occasion but I denie that the negligence or lawfull occasion of some ought to hinder or stay other from communicating this you should haue proued but you do not and your cautions and exceptions which I verie well allowe declare the contrarie Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 117. Sect. 3. But it may be obiected that in this poynt the booke of common prayer is not in fault whiche doth not onely not forbid that all the Church shoulde receyue togither but also by a good and godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they shoulde not depart but communicate altogither It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neyther shoulde it suffer that three or foure shoulde haue a Communion by themselues so many being in the Church meete to receyue and to whome the Supper of the Lord doth of lyke right apperteyne and it ought to prouide that those which woulde withdrawe themselues should be by ecclesiasticall discipline at all tymes and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment (*) This is clean contrarie to the Admonition pag. 109. brought to communicate with their brethren And this is the lawe of God and this is nowe and hath bene heretofore the practise of Churches reformed All men vnderstande that the Passeouer was a fygure of the Lordes Supper and that there shoulde be as straight bondes to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egypt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the Passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the Numbers Num. 9. where he sayth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane (*) This is not excommunication but putting to death his soule should be cut of from amongst the people of God therefore this neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes Supper ought to be punished with no lesse punishment especially when as after the Church hath proceeded in that order which our Sauiour Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sorie for their fault and promise amendment And that this was the custome of the Churches it may appeare by Conc. Apo. Can. 9. the. 9. of those Cannons which are fathered of the Apostles where it is decreed that all the faythful that entred into the congregation and heard the Scriptures read and did not tarie out the prayers and the holy Communion should be as those which were cause s of disorders in the Church separated from the Church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the Church of God heard the Scriptures Con. 2. Bracca cap. 83. om 2. and afterwarde of wantonnesse or losenesse withdrew himselfe from the Communion of the Sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerend Sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared his repentance Io. Whitgifte I do not much disagrée from this sauing that I sée no reason that thrée or foure should be debarred from so comfortable and fruteful a Sacrament either for the negligence or necessarie impediments of others except also your
in such matters whereof you are a member What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented vnto I knowe not but certayne it is that these be his owne woordes And that when he writte them he was of the same opinion that we are at this tyme in this Church of England Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in lyke manner writing vpon the fourth to the Galatians Caluine doth not disallow this kinde of obseruing dayes his wordes be these VVhen as holynesse is attributed to dayes vvhen as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake vvhen dayes are made a peece of diuine vvorship then dayes are vvickedly obserued c. But vvhen vve haue a difference of dayes laying no burden of necessitie on mens consciences vve make no difference of dayes as though one vvere more holy than an other vve put no religion in them nor vvorshipping of God but onely vve obserue them for order and concorde sake so that the obseruing of dayes vvith vs is free and vvithout all superstition And agayne vpon the. 2. to the Colloss But some vvill say that vve as yet haue some kinde of obseruing dayes I ansvvere that vve obserue them not as though there vvere any religion in them or as though it vvere not then lavvfull to labour but vvee haue a respect of pollycie orders not of dayes And in his Institutions vpō the fourth commaundement Neyther do I so speake of the seuenth daye that I vvould binde the Church onely vnto it for I do not condemne those Churches vvhich haue other solemne dayes to meete in so that they be voyde of superstition vvhich shall be if they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine at the practise of him and the Churche where he lined was and i to admitte no one holy day besides the Lordes day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of his workes as I thinke that he approued those holy dayes which are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in his Institution that he will not condemne those Churches which vse them no more do we the Churche of Englande neyther in this nor in other thinges whiche are meete to be reformed For it is one thing to mistike an other thing to condemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the Churche and an other to condemne the Churche for it And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians and Collossians there is no mention of any holydayes eyther to Sainctes or to any other and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches but the churche of Geneua and answereth not to those which obiecte against the keping of Sainctes dayes or any holydayes as they are called besides the Lordes daye but against those whiche woulde not haue the lordes day kepte still as a day of reste from bodily labour as it may appeare both by his place vpon the Collossians and especially in that which is alleaged out of his Institutions and that he meaneth nothing lesse than such holydayes as you take vpon you to detende it may appeare first in the place of the Collossians where he sayeth that the dayes of reste whiche are vsed of them are vsed for pollicie sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollycie and a way to preserue the estate of thinges and to keepe them in a good continuance and successe that as well the beastes as the menne which labour sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicie nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there shoulde be so many dayes wherein menne should cease from worke beyng a thing which breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouertie besides other disorders and vices which alwayes go in companie with idlenesse And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himselfe yet more playnely when he sayeth that those odde holydayes then are without superstition when they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order whereby he giueth to vnderstande that he would haue them no further holydayes than for the tyme which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the reste they should be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holydayes ascribed vnto Sainctes by the seruice booke is a iuste cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice booke Io. Whitgifte What soeuer M Caluines practise was in the Churche of Geneua yet in these places dothe his iudgement euidently appeare neyther doth a man alwayes vse that himselfe which he alloweth in an other for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place that is not so in an other He that condemneth the thing as vnlawfull muste also condemne the Churches that vse the same though not wholly yet in that poynt For as muche therefore as M. Caluine did not condemne other Churches for obseruing suche dayes it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the obseruing of those dayes in those Churches In déede it is one thing to mislike an other thing to condemne but he that maketh suche a sturre in the Churche for these matters as you do and that so disorderly can not be sayde onely to mislyke but also to condemne The place of M. Caluine out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not mente onely of the Lordes daye but of other dayes also obserued in other reformed Churches and in that place he maketh a generall answere as it were for them all as it is soone perceyued by suche as will reade that place He also that shall per vse his woordes vpon the seconde chapter to the Collossians shall finde the lyke sense in them In that he sayeth they be vsed for order and pollicie wee do not dissent from him but thinke so in lyke manner howbeit wée vnderstande as he doth Ecclesiasticall order and pollicie for in the wordes that go before the place to the Galatians he sayeth that the obseruing of dayes dothe also perteyne ad Regimen Ecclesiae to the gouernment Caluin in 4. Gal. of the Churche What better order and pollicie can there be than to haue certayne dayes appoynted wherein the people may reste from bodily labour to labour spiritually to heare the worde of God c. whiche M. Caluine called order and pollicie and not the externall rest of the Sabboth daye which is a commaundement of God and no constitution of the Churche neyther hath the Churche any respect to worldly pollicie in appoynting of Holydayes but to Ecclesiasticall pollicie whiche consisteth in hearing the wordes ministring the Sacramentes publike Prayers and other such lyke godly actions The place in his Institutions conuince all your shifting coniectures of mere follie for therein he playnely declareth his allowing in other Churches of o Holydayes than the
of your profession shoulde be ignorant in the nature and definition of a Sacrament A Sacrament I meane not in the largest signification but as it is properly vsed and as we call the Lordes Supper and Baptisme Sacramentes For Sacramentes in the proper signification be mysticall signes ordeyned by God himselfe consisting in the worde of The proper signification of sacraments God in figures and in things signified whereby he keepeth in mannes memorie and sometymes renueth his large benefites bestowed vpon his Church whereby also he sealeth or assureth his promises and sheweth outwardly and as it were layeth before oure eyes those things to beholde which inwardly he worketh in vs yea by them he strengthneth and increaseth our fayth by the holy Ghost working in our heartes And to be short by his Sacramentes he separateth vs from all other people from all other religions consecrating vs and binding vs to him onely and signifyeth what he requyreth of vs to be done Nowe euerie ceremonie signifying any thing hath not these conditions and propertyes Euery signifying ceremonie is not a acrament Wherefore euerie ceremonie signifying any thing is not a Sacrament and therefore crossing in Baptisme though it signifyeth some thing yet it is no Sacrament The allegory of sitting is dombe and speaketh nothing but to the signe of the crosse is added the signification in expresse woordes as I haue before declared wherefore there is more cause to condemne the one than there is to cōdemne the other More uer sitting at the Lordes supper hath not bene vsed in the Churche that I can reade of but crossing in baptising hath wherefore that were to inuent a newe Ceremonie and this is to reteyne the olde so that the reason of their allegorie and of this Ceremonie is not lyke Of refusing yle in baptisme the Churche hath iust cause and it vseth hir libertie in reteyning crossing neyther will it burden the Sacramentes with a multitude of vnnecessary and vnprofitable Ceremonies and yet reteyne such as shall be thought moste conuenient Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Lin. 3. And to conclude I see no cause why some crosses should be vnlawefull and other some commendable and why it should be a monument of Popery in woode and metall and yet a Christian badge in the forehead of a man why we should not lyke of it in streates and hyghewayes and yet allowe of it in the churche Io. Whitgifte As there is great difference betwixt the paynting of an Image to sette foorth an historie and placing of it in the Churche to be worshipped so is there also as great difference or more betwixt crossing a childe in the forehead at the time of baptisme with expressing the cause and vse of it and the placing of crosses in Churches or highways and streates The crossing of the childes forehead is but for a moment the crosse of wood and stone remayneth and continueth the crosse in the childes forehead is not made to be adored and worshipped neyther was euer any man so madde as to imagine any such thing of it but the crosses in churches streates and highwayes of mettall and woode were erected to be worshipped and were so accordingly and therefore there is no like perill in the one as there is in the other ¶ Of the parties that are to be Baptised Chap. 4. The first Diuision Admonition ▪ That the parties to be baptised if they be of the yeares of (p) Math. 6. discretion by them selues and in their owne persones or if they be infantes by theyr parentes in whose rooine if vpon necessary occasion they be absent some one of the congregation knowyng the good behauiour and sounde faythe of the par tes may both make rehersall if theyr faythe and also if their fayth be sounde agreable to holy scriptures desyre to be in the same baptised And finally that nothyng be done in this or any other thing but that which you haue the expresse warrant of Gods worde for Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 111. Sect. 1. 2. I muse what you meane to saye on this sorte The parties to be baptised Of those that are to be baptised if they be of the yeares of discretion c. You knowe that in this Church of England none tarry for baptisme so long except it be in some secrete congregation of Anabaptistes The place alledged out of the third of Matthew telleth how they that were baptised cōfessed their sinnes it speaketh nothing of any confession of faith It is well that you admitte some to answere for the infant in the Of the parēts answering or their children absence of the parent and why not in his presence to what scripture haue you that the Parent at the baptising of his childe should make a rehersall of his fayth and desire that his childe should bee therein baptised this I desire to knowe for myne owne learning for I neither remember any such thing in scripture neither yet in any auncient wryter I do herein but desire to be instructed T. C. Pag. 139. Lin. 6. And bicause I would haue all those thyngs togither that touche this matter of baptisine I come to that which he hath in the next Section and in III. page where after his olde manner he wrangleth and quarrelleth For although the Admonition speaketh so playnely and so clearely that as Hesiod sayth it myght 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 satisfie Momus yet M. Doctor goeth about there to bryng it in suspicion of Anabaptisme bicause allowing in playne wordes the baptisme of infantes they adde that if the parties be of discretion and yeares them selues in their own persons should demaunde to be baptised For sayth he in this Church they tary not for baptisme so long But is ther no cause or may there not be when they that be of age may be baptised It may be there are Iewes in Englande which vnderstanding their blyndnes and confessing their synne may desyre to be baptised and here be dyuers Mores in noble mens gentlemens houses which are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christe whereby th re is some vse and practise of this case Io. Whitgifte Anabaptisme being so crafty an heresy that it dissembleth many things vntill it Anabaptisme a crafty heresy haue sufficient ayde a man can not be to suspicious of it especially in those that walke in steppes so lyke vnto it And yet I speake nothing in that place that may bryng the A thours of the Admonition into suspicion of Anabaptisme vnlesse they suspect them selues or that you would haue them suspected for you knowe the olde prouerbe Conscius ipse sibi c. It may be in deede that there be Iewes in Englande Mores Turkes 〈◊〉 and that some of them being conuerted to the fayth be afterward baptised and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is so but the case is very rare and there is no man that doubteth but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be examined in their fayth before they be admitted to
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
158. Lin. 15. c. that can not sée Beside this it is a Popish and an vngodly opinion contrarie to the worthinesse and profitablenesse of the Scriptures contrarie to the wordes of Christ Iobn 5. Iohn 5. Search the Scripture c. contrarie to the wordes of the Apostle 2. Tim. 3. Omnis 2. Tim. 3. Tract 13. scriptura diuinitùs inspirata c. And contrarie to all that that I haue alleaged before for the reading of the Scriptures to the which for the further confutation of this vngodly error I do referre the Reader Ansvvere to the Detractions c. Fol. 3. Iu the same leafe and fift reason to these wordes Besides that we neuer reade in the new Testament that this worde Priest as touching office is vsed in the Correction with exceptiō good part In the seconde edition is added except it speake of the Leuiticall Priesthoode or of the Priesthood of Christ. Here as I thinke they haue forgotten that which Peter speaketh to all Christians in his 1. Epist. cap. 2. ver 5. And ye as lyuely stones be made a spirituall house and holy Priesthod to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. ver 9. But ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood c. And Apo. 1. And make vs Kings and Priests vnto God c. I willed them before to shew me one place in the whole newe Testament where this word Priest as touching the office is takē in euill part I may be deceyued but I desire to learne T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 1. And vpon the. 3. leafe where he giueth instance in the Apocalips of the word Priest to be taken otherwise than for the Leuitical priesthood and priesthood of our sauiour Christ. M. D. cannot be ignorant that the Admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deed properly and not by those which are priests by a inctaphore and borowed speach And wheras he desireth to learne where the worde priest is taken in euill part in all the new testament Although all men see how he asketh this question of no mind to learne yet if he will learne as he sayth he shall find that in (*) In what Chapter ▪ the Acts of the Apostles it is taken diuers times in euill part For seing that the office function of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of priests was after our sauiour christs ascētion naught vngodly the name wherby they were called which did exercise that vngodly function cannot be otherwise takē than in the euil part Io. Whitgifte And what say you to the places of S. Peter is not this worde priest taken in good part there also I desired to haue one place in all the new Testamēt named vnto me where this word priest is taken in euil part you send me ouer to the Acts of the Apostles naming neither text nor chapter yet that satisfieth not my request for the Authors of the Admonition in their corrections except the Leuitical priesthood and the priesthood of Christ whereof onely there is mention made in the Actes of the Apostles except it be in the. 14. of the Acts where Luke speaketh of heathnish priests as of the priest of Jupiter so that my question is as yet vnanswered by you Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 5. But of the Bishops benediction by laying on of his handes heare master Caluines iudgement in this Instit. cap. 19. Section 4. Talem manuum Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by Caluin impositionem quae simpliciter loco benedictionis fiat laudo restitutam hodiè in purum vsum velim Such imposition of handes as is simplie made in the stead of blessing I do commende and vvish that it vvere restored at this day to the pure vse There shall you also read the verie self same forme and maner of confirmation allowed which is now vsed in this Church of England T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 2. Master Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe cyteth M. Caluins authoritie to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children the confirmation which is here vsed is good In the which place although he allow of a kinde of confirmation yet he doth not commend that which we haue For he doth plainly reproue Ierome for saying that it came from the Apostles which notwithstanding the confirmation with vs doth affirme Besides that there are other abuses which I haue noted there which M. Caluin doth not by any worde allow He alloweth indeede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childehoode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those which did thrust it out of the Chuch where he was Pastor And (*) He re you make M. Caluine contrarie to him selfe but vntruly so he alloweth of it that he bringeth in the sixt Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes shoulde do now seeing that the giftes of the holy Ghost by that ceremonie is ceased Therefore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason agaynst this imposition of handes his name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seeing that we haue experience of great inconuemences which come by it which maister Caluin could not haue that thing being not in vse in that Church where he liued Which inconuenience in things which are not necessarie ought to be a iust cause of abolishing of them And this is not my indgement onely but the iudgement of the Churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. Chap. of their confession Io. Whitgifte The common refuge of the Replier is to discredite the Authour Here you would shift of M. Caluins authoritie if you knew how but béeing ouerpressed with his manifest wordes you flie to your common vsual refuge that is to discredite the Authour by charging him with contrarieties in this matter for you confesse that he alloweth a kind of confimation you say also that he alloweth in deed of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childhoode or begin to be yong men and againe you affirme that he was one of those that did thrust it oute of the Churche where he was Pastor and that he bringeth in the 6. Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Thus you set Master Caluine against himselfe and that in the same Caluin vntruely charged with contrariety by the Replyer Chapter which cannot but turne to his great discredite if it were true but you greatly abuse both the Reader and him for in the. 4. section which I haue alledged he speaketh of that maner of confirmation imposition of handes which was vsed in the olde Church and the same that is nowe vsed in the Church of Englande which he alloweth and wisheth restored In the fifth
and sixth sections he speaketh of the maner and forme of confirmation and laying on of handes vsed by the Papists and disproueth that as his owne wordes which I haue for that purpose more at large set downe do plainly declare for in the fourth Section of the. 19. Chapter thus hee wryteth This was the maner in tymes past that the children of Christians shoulde bee Caluin inst cap. 9 sect 4. set before the Bishop after they were come to yeares of discretion that they might performe that which was required of them that being of age did offer themselues to baptisme For these sat among the Catechumeni vntill being rightly instructed in the mysteries of fayth they were able to vtter a confession of their fayth before the Bishop and the people The insants therefore that were baptised bicause then they made no confession of A kind of con described by Caluin not disagreeing from ours fayth in the Church at the ende of their childehoode or in the beginning of their youth they were againe presented of their parents and were examined of the Bishop according to a certaine and common forme of a Catechisme And to the intent that this action which otherwise ought of right to be graue and holy might haue the greater reuerence and estimation there was added also the ceremonie of laying on of handes so the childe was dismissed his fayth being approued with a solemne blessing The auncient fathers make often mention of this order Pope Leo If any man returne from heretikes let him not againe be baptised but let the vertue of the spirite which was wanting be giuen vnto him by the laying on of the Bishops handes Here our aduersaries will crie that it is rightly called a Sacrament wherein the holy Ghost is giuen But Leo himselfe doth in another place expounde what he meaneth by those wordes He that is baptised sayth he of heretikes let him not be rebaptised but let him be cōfirmed with the inuocation of the holy Ghost by the imposition of handes bicause he receyued only the forme of baptisme without sanctification Hierome also maketh mention hereof contra Luciferianos Although I doe not denie that Herome is somwhat herein deceyued that he sayth that it is an Apostolicall obseruation yet is he most farre from these mens follies And he mittigateth it when he sayth that this blessing was graunted only to the Bishop rather for the honour of priesthood than by the necessitie of the law VVherefore such an imposition of handes which is simply in stead of a blessing I commend and would wish it were at these dayes restored to the pure vse These words be euident declare a maner of confirmation correspondent to ours In the fifth Section he wryteth thus But the latter age haue brought in a counterfey e The abuse of confirmation in the popish Church confirmation in stead of a Sacrament of God the thing it selfe beeing almost quite blotted out They feyne this to be the vertue of confirmation to giue the holy Ghost vnto the encrease of grace whiche was giuen in baptisme to innocencie of lyfe to confirme them vnto battail which in baptisme were regenerated vnto life This confirmation is wrought with annointing and this forme of wordes I signe the with the signe of the holy Ghost and I confirme thee with the oyntment of saluation in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghost c. And in confuting this maner of confirmation and imposition of handes he procéedeth on in this fifth Section in the sixth Section Wherefore Master Caluine is not contrarie to himselfe neyther disalloweth that kinde of confirmation and imposition of handes in the sixth Section which he alloweth in the fourth But in the one he approueth the maner of the auncient and purer Church touching confirmation in the other he disproueth the vse doctrine of the papistical church cōcerning the same This might you haue sene if you had bin disposed but you care not whom you discredit so that you may winne credit to your selfe The confession of the Churches of Heluetia Berne c. speake only of the Popishe The Repl viech that against our confirmation which is 〈◊〉 of the Papistes Confess Heluet cap. 19. confirmation which the Papists make one of their seuen Sacraments as it is manifest by the wordes of the confession which be these Confirmation and extreame vnction or anealing are the inuentiōs of man which the church may wante without any dammage Neither vse we them in our churches for they haue some things which we can not allowe Nowe to vse that against Confirmation reformed purged from these things which they mislike which is spoken of the Popishe confirmation with all the abuses can it be thinke you the parte of an honest and playne dealing man Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 6. In the ende of that fiftenth article or reason this is added And whiche of them haue not preached against the Popes twoo swordes now whether they vse thē not them selues Touching the Popes twoo swordes we are of the same minde still for the Pope contrary to the word of God taketh from Princes vnto him selfe that authoritie which is due vnto them by the worde of God and would haue them to receiue that authoritie from him whiche he hath no power to giue the Pope also requireth the full authoritie of a ciuill magistrate and exempteth him self from all subiection which is lat cōtrary to the word of God our Bishops Bishops doo not vse the ciuiil sworde as the pope doth in this church do not chalenge as of their owne right any such ciuil authoritie but only according to their dutie execute that that by the Prince and lawes of this realme for iust considerations is laide vpō them Neither do they meddle in all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche only as helpeth to discipline and to the good gouernment of this church and state wherfore we may safely preach against the Popes twoo swordes and yet lawefully defend that iurisdictiō and authoritie that any Bishop hath in this church for any thing that I knowe T. C. Page 174. Sect. 3. Upon the sixt leafe M. Doctor saith that the Pope taketh the sworde from Princes but our Bishops take it at their handes and giuen of them as though challenge were not made against the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the Princes For by that reason if Princes would put their swordes in his hande as sometimes they haue done he might lawefully vse them And wheras he saieth that our churchmen meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but such as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church the estate What sayth he that is not truly sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme For no one doth meddle in all causes And further I would gladly knowe
to the practise of the Church and truth and notorious vntruthes affirmed by him of the Answere to the Admonition with sundrie other grosse ouersights because I haue noted them in the margent and plainly detected them in my Defense to this Replier and are for the most part noted also in the Generall Table vnder these 3. titles Falsifications of the Replier T. C. charged with vntruth T. C. chargeth the Answere falsely Men may erre and be deceiued but either to speake nothing truly or often to fault in vntrue dealing cannot be a token of the spirite of truth the which spirite of truth God for his Christes sake graunt vnto all those that haue a heartie desire to know the truth FINIS A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL titles and matters handeled at large in this Booke AN answere to the Epistle Dedicated by T. C. too the Church of Englād c. pag. 1 An Epistle of the Author too the Church of England 17 An exhortation to the Ciuil ecclesiasticall Magistrates 31 An aunswere to the Preface of the Admonition 57 Tractatus 1. VVhether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto mi nisters 61 The true interpretation of the 20 of Mathew c. Reges gentium c. Cap. 1. 61 The exposition of the place Math. 23. Cap. 2. 71 Tract 2. Of the authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76 Som things may be tollerated in the Church touching order ceremonies discipline kind of gouern ment not expressed in the woord of God Chap. 1. 76 The opinion of the auncient fathers and councelles of thinges indifferent Chap. 2 95 The opinion of Saint Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3 99 The opinion of M. Caluine of things indifferent Chap. 4. 109 The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5 113 The expositiō of the places of Deut. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Chap. 6. 116 The opinion of other late writers of thinges indifferent Chap. 7. 126 Tract 3. Of the election of Ministers 132 Of the triall of Ministers both in lear ning and conuersation Chap. 1. pag. 132 VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers maye afterwardes be Ministers of the Gospell Chap. 2. 143 Of Ministers learning Catechismes Chap ▪ 3. 152 Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people Chap. 4. 154 An examinatiō of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie c. of elections by the people Chap. 5. 170 The diuersitie betwixt the Apostles times oures requireth a diuers kind of gouernement and of ordering of Ministers Chap. 6. 174 That Bishops haue authoritie to admit and ordeine Ministers Chap. 7. 194 It is not necessary that the people should haue interest in the election of Ministers but the contrary is conuenient Chap. 8. 211 Tract 4. Of Ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordering Ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets 216 Of Ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1 216 Of ceremonies vsed in ordeining Mi nisters Chap. 2. 225 Of Apostles Euangelists and Prophets Chap. 3. 228 Tract 5. Of Residence of the pastor Chap. 1. 235 Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. 246 Tract 6. Of Ministers that cānot preach and of licences to preach 251 Some may be Ministers that cannot preach Chap. 1. 251 Of licences to preach Chap. 2 254 Tract 7. Of apparell of Ministers 256 The causes vvhy they refuse the Apparell examined Chap. 1. 256 That Ministers vvere knovvne in times past by distinct apparell Chap. 2. 261 That the Magistrate may appoynt a distinct apparell for Ministers Chap. 3. 264 The distinction of apparell vvas appointed before the Popes tiranny Chap. 4. 268 That the apparel now vsed is not Po pishe or Antichristian And that things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians Chap. 5. 271 Diuers thinges concerning apparell in other places of the Aunsvvere chap. 6. 282 The faultes vvherevvith the Admonitors charge the apparell aunswered Chap. 7 283 Tract 8. Of Archbishops Metropolitās Bishops Archdeacons c. pag. 297 The reasons of T. C. ansvvered wher by he goeth about to take awaye the superfluous loppe as hee termeth it of the offices chap. 1. 297 That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian chap. 2. 318 The offices of Archbishops c. are not straung or vnheard of in Chri stes church and of superioritie among the Clergie chap. 3. 353 The defense of the ansvvere of maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops c. against the vnreuerend Reply of T. C. chap. 4 422 The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiue and the estate of the old Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. 435 Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our clergie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answer chap. 6. 453 A briefe collection of such authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops Bishops Chap 7. 470 A briefe comparison of the Bishops of our time and the Bishoppes of the primitiue Church Chap. 8. pag. 47 Tract 9. Of the communiō booke 474. The generall faultes examined wher vvith the publike seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. 474 An examination of the particular faultes either in matter or forme whervvith the Booke of commō praier is charged Chap. 2. 487 Of Baptisme by women vvherwith the communion Booke is falsly charged Chap. 3. 503 Of ministring the sacraments in priuate places Chap. 4. 511 The sacraments ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. 515 Of priuate communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the Booke of common prayer Chap. 6. 525. Of Churching of women 534 Tract 10. Of holydayes 538 Of holidayes in generall and that they maye bee appointed by the Church and of the vse of them Chap. 1. 538 Of Saints dayes Chap. 2. 543 Tract 11. VVhat kind of preachinge is most effectuall 555 Tract 12. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments 562. Tract 13. Of reading of the Scriptures 568. A comparison betvveene reading of Scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. page 568 That reading is preaching chap. 2. pag. 574 The profite of reading Scriptures in the Church chap. 3. 578 Tract 14. Of ministring and preachinge by Deacons 582 Tract 15. Of matters touching the communion 588 Of orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion chap. 1. 588 Of shutting men from the communion and compelling to communicate chap. 2. 603 Of playn and simple ministring and receyuing of the communion Chap. 3. 605 Tract 16. Of matters touching baptisme pag. 607 Of interrogatories ministred to infantes Chap. 1. 607 Of Godfathers and their promise Chap. 2 612 Of fontes and crossing in baptisme Chap. 3. pag. 614 Of the parties that are to bee baptised Chap. 4 619 Tract 17. Of the Seigniorie or gouernement by Seniors 626 VVhether there were such as the Ad monition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation chap. 1. 626 VVhether the gouernement by
in the Defense for Archbishops and the superiority of Bishops 470. c. ¶ Archdeacons 344. c. ¶ Archiflamines 320. c. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatiues by comparison 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione 62 Argumentum à facto ad us 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument 316. c. Arguments borowed of the Papists 466. 696. 697. 698. c. Argumentum à toto ad partes affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleaged 243 ¶ Arrogancie cloked with zeale 42 Arrogancie disprayseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancie of the libellers 57 ¶ Assertion vnaduised 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop 471. 339 Athanasius Creede 496 Athanasius being a child baptized pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church 178 ¶ Auncient Fathers contemned of the vnlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of thinges indifferent pag. 99. c Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises 100 Augustine heareth ciuill causes 771. 772. Augustine retorted vpon the aduersarie 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the ouersight of many Churches pag. 471 ¶ Authoritie the best proofe in Diuine matters 200 B ¶ Babling in prayer what it is 805 ¶ Baptisme the sacrament of fayth pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptisme 607. c Of the parties to be baptised 619. c Baptisme once ministred remaineth perpetuall 622 The essentiall poynte of Baptisme pag. 519. Baptisme called priuate in respect of the place 93. 504 Baptisme ministred but once a yere pag. 238 Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred 517. 521 Differring of Baptisme not cōuenient 521 Baptisme by lay men 518. 519. 523. Baptisme by women not collected out of the booke 504. 793. Baptisme by women not defended pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptisme ministred in priuate places 511. c. 513. Necessitie in Baptisme 523. Baptisme ministred withoute preaching 563 The name of Baptisme transferred to the giftes of the spirit 564 ¶ Basilius a Metropolitane 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ Beggers and ignorant persons are thoughte onely to bee saued of some 10 ¶ To beleue and to be elected not al one 611 ¶ Benedictus 494. c. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops c. holy names 472 Beza his iudgemēt of baptising the children of excommunicate person c. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops moste mete to haue the examination of ministers 131 Bishope haue authoritie to admitte ministers 196. c Bishops appointe their successours pag. 205 Bishops authoritie 297. c 408. Bishops called heades of the Churches 301 One ministerie of Bishops but diuerse degrees 320 A Byshop aboue a priest in Cyprians time 358 One Byshoppe in one Cittie 366. 444. Difference betwixte Byshoppe and Priest 383 Byshoppes in the Apostles tymes pag. 384. 470 Ieromes Byshoppe aboue an Elder in rule 385 Byshops gouernours simply not of one action onely 3 Byshoppes authoritie consisteth in offences 75 Byshop high priest 411. 470. 471. VVhat kinde of authoritie Byshops exercise 420 Byshoppes succede Apostles in gouernment 32 Comparison betwixte our Byshope and the olde Bishops 472 〈◊〉 Byshops alone excommunicate 6 6 c. Byshops may haue assistance in excommunication 673 Authoritie ascribed to Bishops in x communication not infinite but limited 6 8 Byshops gaue sentence in ciuill causes 773 ¶ A Bloudy assertion 150 ¶ Booke of common prayer Looke Communion Booke Booke of ordering Ministers iustifyed concerning examination pag. 134. 〈◊〉 42 The reasons of T. C. agaynste the Booke of ordering Ministers pag. 134. c ¶ Bodye what it signifieth in Caluine 46 Of these wordes The Body of ou e Lord Iesus Christ. c. 6 ¶ Bragges 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion Looke Communion Bread ¶ Brethren may be punished 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferēt 113. c. Bucers censure of the first Communion Booke 595 615 Bucer defaced by the Replyer 522 ¶ Burialls 727. c The place of Buriall 737 The dutie of the minister not hindred by burying the dead 730 A prayer at Buryall expounded pag. 729 The dead buryed by the minister with prayer 728 Buriall Sermons Looke funerall sermons C ¶ Caius Fimbria 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop c. 417. c Caluine of thinges indifferente 109 c. Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 398. Diuerse editions of Caluines institutions 391. 50 Caluines opinion of Communion bread 592. c ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned 463 c ¶ Can is not taken for ought 778 ¶ Catechist and pastor differ 425 Catechi mes 152. c ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 280 ¶ Cathedrall Churches 742. c Cathedrall Churches before Antichristian Popes 747 A Colledge of Ministers in euery citie 747. Our Cathedrall Churches not much differing from those of old time pag. 747 The vse of Cathedrall Churches necessary 747 ¶ Cauilles 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caueat 448 A necessary caueat 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sortes 80 How we haue but 2. ceremonies 119 Substantiall ceremonies 80 Accidentall ceremonies 80 Rules of ceremonies 86. 87 The controuersie about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Euery church hath an order of ceremonies 707 How Ceremonies serue to edifying pag. 286. c. VVhy God appointed so many ceremonies to the Iewes 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and oures 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies vnanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 158. c. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate persons may bee baptisedpag 621. c How children are said to beleue 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop 300 Christ vsed vnleauened biead 593. c. ¶ Christian men sheepe but reasonable 172 The number of Christiās more now than in the Apostles times 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop 412. c. 472. Chris stome exerciseth Archiepiscopall iurisdiction in Asia 414 Chrisostome of distinctiō of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince now 465 The Church is reformed not transformed 474 To frame all churches after one is daungerous 481. 482 Church for the gouernours of the church 636. 66 No church maye challenge to bee a patterne necessarily to be followed 704 The church full of hypocrites 176 Some in the church and not of the church 179 No church established in the Apostles time how 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantines time 188. 189 The Authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76. c. VVhat thinges are left to the order of the church 83. 88. c. 713. The
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
described 118 VVherein the Iewes had a more particular direction than we 117 Iewes had somthing common with the Gentils 321 ¶ Ignorātia Elenchi looke Argumentum ¶ Infirmities in all men 612 ¶ Imposition of handes diuersly taken 198 Imposition of handes 226 Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by maister Caluin pag. 785 ¶ Inconstancie of T. C. and his com panions 431 ¶ Indifferent things loose the nature of indiffereneie being commaunded 92. 258 In what kind of indifferent thinges we ought to haue respecte to the weake 258 Auncient Fathers of things Indifferent 95. c. Councelles of thinges Indifferent pag. 97. 98 Scriptures of things Indifferent 98 Augustin of things Indiffer 99. c. Caluin of things Indifferēt 109. c. Late writers of things Indifferent pag. 126. c. The doctrine of things Indifferent pag. 278 ¶ Interrogatories to Infāts 6 7. c. Augustine of Interrogatories 608 ¶ The Introite 588 Celestinus his Introite 589 ¶ Iohn his apparell 270 Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips 807 ¶ Ionathan the Calday paraphraste pag. 718 ¶ The Iudiciall law abrogated 121 The Iudicialles perteyned to the gouernement of the church 119 The Magistrate not bound to the Iu diciall law of Moses 121. c. Iustinian made Ecclesiasticall lawes pag. 699 K ¶ Difference betwixt a king and a Tyrant 377 Christ and his Gospel no enemies to Kingdomes 647 ¶ Kneeling at the cōmuniō 596. c Kneeling the meetest gesture 597 Kneeling at the name of Iesus 741 L ¶ Lawes made must not bee ouerthrowne without strong reasons pag. 686 Lawfull is ordinary in a Church esta blished 38 Difference betwixt the seueritie of the lavve and the lenitie of the Gospell 149 ¶ Lay men teachers in the Church pag. 209. 521 Lay men baptised 518. 519 ¶ Letters commendatorie 141 ¶ The Letany 489. 495. 496. ¶ Leo Archbishop 338 471 ¶ Leuites had to do in ciuill matters pag. 697 ¶ The true libertie of the Church pag. 195. Christian libertie 791 VVhat libertie cannot bee taken away 541 No mans libertie restrayned 542 ¶ Libell what it is 807 Libellers be vnderminers 559 Libelling no true way of reforming pag. 806 The Libellers compared to pharisies pag. 807 ¶ Licence to preach necessarie 255 ¶ Passing Logicke 383 M ¶ Macheuiles 8 0 ¶ Magistrates cuill spoken of by Anabaptists and why 37 Ciuill Magistrates may not take vppon them ecclesiasticall functions pag. 5 Ciuill Magistrate doth not simply differ from the ecclesiasticall by bearing rule 63 No Christian Magistrate in the Apostles time 180 The Magistrate head of the commō wealth but not of the church by T. C. 180 How the Church may be established without a Magistrate 182 The Magistrates authoritie abridged pag. 265. 266 The Magistrate may abridge externall libertie 541 The Papistes opinion of Christian Magistrates 631 No more graunted to the Christian Magistrate than to the Turke 635 The Ciuill Magistrate a better helpe than Seniors 640. 641 The Prince made subiect to Seniors pag. 646 The Magistrate may better reforme offenders than Seniors 643. The ouerthrowe of the Princes authoritie conteyned in the Reply page 646. The authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters page 694. c. The Prince spoyled of his authoritie 694. The opinion of the Replyer concerning the Princes authoritie 695 VVhat authoritie Papistes gyue to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters 695. Princes haue exercised supreme authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matter page 698 6 9. A wise Prince will take the aduise of the learned in waighty affa es page 6 9. The ciuill Magistrate shut from the gouernment of the Church 78 ¶ Magnificat nunc dimittis 494. c. 496. ¶ Manichees appoynt the Lords day to be fasted 1 2. ¶ Matters cōcerning the solemnization of mariage 723 c. Toyes about mariage 794. ¶ M. Martyrs words peruerted 2 0. ¶ Massemongers may bee ministers page 143. c. ¶ Masters of Colledges their authoritie 397. ¶ Matthias elected extraordinarily page 154. ¶ Meletius Archbyshop of Egipte page 471. ¶ Mercie of God infinite 83. 624. ¶ Messalian heretikes 536. ¶ Metaphores of watchmē shepheardes 22 2 7. ¶ Metropolitane 297. c Metropolitan loke Archbishop ¶ Ministers that cannot preach 251. c. Causes of lacke of able Ministers page 252. Ministers knowne in time paste by apparell 261. c. Ministers hauing no pastorall charg page 216. c. Ministers diffamed not reformed by the Admonitors 36. Ministers reuyled by Anabaptistes and why 37. A man maye offer himselfe to the Ministerie 48. Ministers maye exercise some ciuill iurisdiction 64. 354. 749. c. Election of Ministers 132. c The tryall of Ministers in learning and conuersation 132. VVorthie Ministers in England 1 0 The Minister may be assured of his calling thoughe he be not chosen by the people 194. All Ministers gouerne but not alike page 314. Ministers subiect to Bishops 420 One Minister may not meddle in an other mans charge 803 A Minister may vse corporall punish ment 764 The Minister hindered by whom pag. 484 The Minister not the only mouth of the people 501. c. ¶ More sinceritie in the ministration of the Sacraments nowe than in the auncient Church 526 ¶ Misteries vvhat they be 515 ¶ The gouernment of this Realme Monarchicall 182. 650 A Monarchie and Tiranny confoun ded by T. C. 377 ¶ Modestie of the Replier 351 ¶ The moderators office 395 ¶ Moses wife did circumcise 515 ¶ Monuments of Idolatrie may bee vsed if they be profitable 256 ¶ Mourning apparell 730. 731 A lawfull vnlavvfull vse of mourning apparell 732 ¶ Musculus alleaged for Ierome 203 222. Musculus his reasons vppon the 20. of Mathew 69. c. Musculus his meaning peruerted 193 N ¶ Names of diuers kindes 64 Names common to ciuill and ecclesiasticall persons 64 Names proper to God may in some respect be attributed to other 300 A lawful name may remaine though it hath bene abused 302 How these wordes vos autem non sic may be referred to names 63 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not all one 71 ¶ Diuers significations of this word Necessarie 80 ¶ N ene Creede 589 ¶ Only 2. essentiall notes of the Church 81 ¶ Nouatus and his qualities and the cause of his heresie 74 Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie 74 The Nouatian heresie 360 O ¶ Offences giuen to the papistes thorough contention 143 ¶ The opponent should proue 712 ¶ Ordeining of Ministers pertaineth to Bishops 225 c. ¶ Orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans misliking 86 Generall Orders not lightly to be altered 101 Decrees pertayninge to Order not only humane 107 Decent Orders Gods traditions 606 How the Lordes Order is kept 684 The Order which T. C. prescribeth is full of Inconueniences 173 ¶ The Ordinarie meanes too drawe men from vice 477 ¶ Origen a lay man when hee preached 209 ¶ A grosse Ouersight of T. C. 698
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
of the Lord should dwel vnder a Tabernacle and therfore desired maruellously that he might buyld the temple vnto the Lord. And seing that the Lord hath graunted vnto them which he denyed vnto his seruāt that they would not be narow and straight in themselues seeing the Lorde openeth the treasures of his goodnesse so largely vnto them That they would set before them the zeale of Zerubbabel who although he had after the returne out of captiuitie abolished idolatrie layde the foundations of the Temple and set vp an aultar vnto God wherevpon the morning and euening sacrifice was dayly made yet being admonished by the Prophete Aggey that God would not be pleased vnlesse the Temple also were fully buylded did all feare of the nations rounde about and other busynesse layde asyde cause it foorthwith and with al possible speede to be made an ende of Finally that it would please them to consider the examples of Iosias Ezechias and Iehoshaphat who are therfore to their euerlasting commendation pr ised of the holie Ghoste for that they made whole and thorough reformations where as the honour of other some albeit they were otherwyse good is stayned and caryeth the marke of their imperfection by this and like exception that although they did suche good things and such * That is they suffred manifest Idolatrie wher with you can by n means 〈◊〉 thi Chur he of Englande and therefore your application 〈◊〉 vnfie yet they left also suche and suche vndoone Io. Whitgifte And why is not hir Maiestie the head of this Churche also as wel as of this common wealth For I must giue thée to vnderstande good Reader that T. C. maketh T. C. ioyneth with the Papistes concerning the authoritie of the ciuil Magistrate in ecclesiastical matt rs the Churche and the cōmon wealth two such distinct and seuerall bodies as must of necessitie haue distinct and seuerall magistrates and gonernors and that the Ciuill magistrate hath not to medle in Ecclesiasticall matters excepte his aide be required by the Pastor and Seigniorie or suche lyke cases wherin he flatly ioyneth with the Papistes who say that the ciuil Magistrate hath only Potestatem facti and not Iuris that is authoritie to execute suche things as they decrée but not authoritie to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters And least you should thinke that I faine this consider the whole scope of his booke and particularly his wordes before mencioned in this leafe where as he accuseth the gouernment of this Church nowe in practise of confusion bycause ciuill matters are handled by Ecclesiasticall persons and Ecclesiasticall Sect. 3. matters by those which be ciuill also that whiche he speaketh of this matter f 144. and Fo. 144. sect 2. 154. and especially that which the second Admonition hath fo 8. 9. 57. 60. I know not Fol. 154. sect 1. 2. 3. howe he coulde haue made a greater difference betwixt the Churche and the cōmon wealth in those places where the Princes be enimies vnto the Church In déed true it is that in the Apostles tyme Princes did not medle in causes Ecclesiastical except it were by persecuting c. For they were then infidels not Christians persecutors not professors And therfore if all ought of necessitie to be reduced to the forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles time Christian Princes must be deliuered from that care and be content to forgoe that portion of their authoritie But hereof more in the due place this I only here note that you may the better consider the same in the pervsing of his booke The rest of that whiche is conteyned in this parte may haue some vse if it bée rightly applyed for godly princes haue to follow such godly examples and to be diligent in reforming such things as are to be reformed either in substaunce circumstances or persons T. C. Whiche I do not speake as though we had not already by hir Maiestie especially and afterward by their honours hands receiued a singular benefyte but that we hauing the whole myghte haue our hearts and mouthes filled with the praise of God and continue the possessiō of that which we haue which otherwise for our vnthankfull refusall shall be taken away Wherein as we haue especial regard that the name of God should be magnified not by vs alone but by our posteritie vnto the worlds end So it is not the smallest part of our care that hir Maiestie and your honours to whome we are so deepely bound and of whome we haue receiued so singular benefytes of peace and preaching of the Gospell mighte with your successions continue nnd flourish amongst vs for euer But the desire of reformation and feare of Gods heauie wrath to come vpon vs hath carried me further herein than I purposed I will therefore make an end of these points considering that the vntruth of these accusations of newnesse and straungenesse of disorder and confusion of beyng enimie to princes and common wealthes shall better appeare in the discourse of this Booke Io. Whitgifte These be smooth words to win credite by but they agrée not with the rest of your booke wherefore I doubt not but that they will be considered of accordingly I would to God that you did in déede acknowledge that singular benefyte that you haue receiued by hir Maiestie and their honours then truly would you haue shewed yourselfe more thankfull than you haue done neither woulde you haue mainteined libells whiche séeke vtterly to deface all that is done as will manifestly hereafter by further examination appeare Whatsoeuer accusations haue bin made of your doctrine if they be not iustifyed then let the authours of them suffer the shame Surely you haue as slenderly answered these accusations hitherto as may be The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Amongst the offences taken by occasiō of those which preferre the doctrine this is the cheefest that comparison being made betwixt those excellent mē both in vertue and learning which suffered for the testimonie of the truth and betwene vs of the one side Also betwene the Archbyshops Byshops Deanes and Archdeacons which now are and vs on the other side it seemeth vnto many that it is not like to be good which was not found out by those excellent personages and which being now propounded by men of no great shew is eyther misliked or at the least by no open approbation allowed of those which carrie greater countenaunces and be in greater dignities Unto the first although answer is made more at large in this booke yet I will adde thus much that as for my part I coufesse my selfe to be a great deale inferioure vnto the least of them so the omitting of these necessarie things ought to be no more preiudice against them or against those that pret̄erre them than the omitting of the celebration of the feast of Tabernacles so many hundreth yeares by so many good high priests in the raignes of so many good kings was preiudiciall vnto the
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
men also as of Zuinglius Gastius and others Io. Whitgifte The. 14. Article Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words but with the shedding of their bloud also T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. vlt. We feare no shedding of bloud in hir maiesties dayes for mainteining that which we hope we shall be able to proue out of the word of God and wherein we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the thinges whiche we stand vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aford them for the defense of them We brag not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide whatsoeuer hee shall thinke good to trie vs with either for profession of this or any other hys truthe whatsoeuer Io. Whitgifte Thanks be vnto God there is no cause why you should feare But wherefore do you then beate any such suspition into the peoples heads or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing néere you and whiche no man once goeth about to offer vnto you what meane you in the. 59. page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poore Christians and the professours of the Gospell suffered not farre vnlike Second Admoni Fol. 59 to the sixe articles which crafty heads deuised and brought the king hir noble father vnto as they would do hir maiestie now Can any thing be spoken more vntruly more suspiciously nay I may rightly say more seditiously If there be such things in controuersie betwixt vs that require defense euen vnto The state of the cōtētiō altered by T. C. death yea and that if euery heare of our head wer a life we ought to afoord them for the defense of the same then truly is there greater matters in hand than euery body doth consider of Hitherto it hath bin the common opinion that our contention was but about trifles about externall things such as might admit alteration and were not of the substance of religion but if this be true that you here set downe belike a great sort haue bin hitherto deceiued Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defense of life you are much to blame that haue not hitherto made them better knowen I trust we shall in this booke vnderstand what they are In the meane time the stout bragges that are vsed by some might well be spared but we haue oftentimes séene greate cloudes and small rayne and heard great crackes of thunder and thanks be vnto God small harme done Neither are you more to be credited for these boastings than were the Anabaptists for vsing the like Io. Whitgifte ▪ The. 15. Article Page 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schisme and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastours and therfore most odiously they inueied against such pastours and sought by all meanes to discredite them T. C. Page ▪ 6. Sect. 1. We make no separation from the Church we go about to separate al those things that offend in the Church to the end that we being al knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more neerely and closely ioyned togither We endeuour that euery Church hauing a lawfull pastoure whiche is able to instruct all mighte be ranged to their proper Churches whereas diuerse vnlesse they go to other than their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinarie churches and pastours Let him that inueyeth against any pastoure without good cause beare the punishment as for inueying againste heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and such ambition and tyrannie as beareth the sway in diuers ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased than God bee offended Io. Whitgifte Whether you make a separation or no and a schisme in the Churche let all men iudge and whether you draw the people from their ordinarie pastours or no let the secrete conuenticles for I can call them no better vsed not only in the citie but in other places of the countrey also testify whether iustly and as it becommeth you you enuey against such pastours and preachers as mislike your opinion and séeke their discredite let the bitter inuectiues in sermons before the people when none of them is present the common table talke bothe your Admonitions the firste and the second yea and this your passing modeste booke declare Truly this article and euery content in it was neuer more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists than it is and may be of you What you haue to say against the ambition and tyrannie of any such as you especially shoote at we shall sée in your particulars I trust you will speake al you know and more to else you do degenerate Io. Whitgifte The. 16. Article Page 4. Sect. 6. There was no staye in them but daily they inuented new opinions Fol. 18. and did runne from errour to errour T. C. Page 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselues within the bonds of the word of God we professe our selues to be of the number of those which should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and which labor that the Image Eph. 4. v. 13 Col. 3. v. 10. of God may be dayly renued in vs not only in holynesse of life but also in * knowledge of the truth of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not bin many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truth and therefore practised and in our Church also haue bin some yeares debated Io Whitgifte Thus muche might they alleadge for themselues also and applie those textes of scripture to as good purpose as you do For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministerie in the Church that it mighte be a meanes to bring vs to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our iudgement and broching new opinions for against such vnconstancie the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter 4. Eph. ver 14. True it is that we must dayly grow in faith and loue to the full perfection whereof we cannot attaine in this life but it doth not therefore follow that we like children must be carried about with euery wind of doctrine and neuer remaine constant in one religion To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss to be referred I beléeue it will fall out that in this your replie there will be found sundry articles neyther allowed nor practised in any Church reformed nor
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
whervnto he is called of God by his Prince and by the lawes of that realme wherein he is a subiect It is true that an Ecclesiasticall Minister doth much differ from a ciuil Magistrate Ministers may execute some kinde of ciuill iurisdiction touching his ministerie and spirituall calling yet is he not so distincte that he may exercise no such ciuill office wherein he may doe good and which is an helpe to his Ecclesiasticall function As the ciuill Magistrate may in some thynges exercyse iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall and medle in matters of the Churche so may the Ecclestasticall person in some causes vse ciuill iurisdiction and deale in matters of the cōmon wealth if it shall be thought expedient or necessarie by the chiefe Magistrates Caluine M. Caluine in his Commentaries vpon this texte thoughe in some poyntes he agrée A temporall lorde may be a preacher with you yet hath he these woords Adde herevnto that Christe did not so muche respecte the persons of men as the state of his Churche for it may so bee that he which is Lorde of a village or citie doe also necessitie constraining exercise the office of teaching Wherby it is playne that a temporall Lorde if necessitie require maye together with his Lordship become a preacher of the Gospel M. Brentius in his 48. Homilie Brentius What kynde of external do minion is denyed to ministers vpon Luke speaking of this matter sayeth that Bishops whiche glorie themselues to be the successours of the Apostles may not vnder the pretence of their Ecclesiasticall office vsurpe externall dominion ouer kings and Princes to make kings whom they list and to displace whome they liste And by and by he obietteth and answereth as followeth Therefore thou wilte say it is not lawfull for a minister of the Churche whether thou callest hym a Bishop or a preacher to haue temporall dominion and to gouerne What kind of temporall dominion a Minister may exercise the people committed vnto him by ciuill pollicie I answere that it is not lawfull for a Minister of the Churche to vsurpe suche rule and dominion vnder the pretence of the Gospell and of his Ecclesiasticall Ministerie Peter muste not therefore haue dominion ouer Antioche or Rome bycause he is an Apostle c. But if temporall dominion or possession happen to the minister of the Gospell eyther by inheritance or ordinarie election or any other Ciuill or lawfull contracte c. then maye he enioye these externall thyngs c. And in his 52. Homilie vppon these woordes of Christ nowe Idem in question he wryteth thus VVhat shall wee then saye to these thyngs bycause Chryste sayeth The kyngs of the Nations beare rule ouer them and are called bountyfull but it muste not bee so among you shall it not bee lawfull for a Christian man to beare rule in a temporall kingdome and acknowledge the tytles of honoure as of bountyfulnesse and clemencie whyche are gyuen vnto Princes Is it not lawfull also for a Bishop to haue temporall dominion Christe in thys place dothe not thynke it vnlawfull for Christians to bee Magistrates neyther dothe he forbidde Bishoppes to haue externall dominion But he sheweth a difference betweene the kingdome of thys worlde and his kingdome He teacheth that the kyngdome of this worlde and his kingdome are so distincte that he which is a minister of his kingdome must not in that respecte vsurpe the kingdome of this worlde for the Apostles thought that bycause they were Apostles therefore they shoulde possesse the kingdomes of the worlde And therefore Christe in this place condemneth their false opinion c. Christe doth not condemne Magistracie among Christians c. No he dothe not forbidde Byshops to haue externall dominion if they come vnto it by inheritaunce or by lawfull election It is a verye harde matter bothe to preache the Gospell and to exercyse temporall dominion and yet it is not of it selfe vnlawfull together with the ministerie to keepe and vse temporall dominion if it come ordinarily and lawfully For Christe came not to trouble ciuill lawes and the ordinarie gouernmentes of the kingdomes of this worlde but rather that these being preserued his Gospell might be preached quietly Haec Brentius But of ciuill authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons occasion wil be giuen to speake more at large hereafter That which Christ sayde Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. VVhosoeuer will be great Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. expounded among you let him be your minister though it may especially appertaine to the Apostles yet it is also a generall rule for all Christians and so is the example of him also whiche hée propoundeth vnto them And so doth Musculus verie truly interprete this place to whome M. Bucer agréeth whose woordes be these The Anabaptistes Buce in 20. thynke here that they are able to proue that it pertaineth not to a Christian to beare rule Mitth and that no man can be together a Magistrate and a Christian bycause Christe sayde They which ear rule godl y serue here to his Disciples Vos autem non sic not consydering that those whyche godlylle and according to the wil of the Lord beare rule Nihil minus quà m dominari imò maximè seruire tantò pluribus quantò pluribus praefuerint doe nothyng lesse than beare rule in deede yea verily doe moste of all serue and euen vnto so many doo they serue ouer howe manye so euer they beare rule surely Christe woulde haue his Apostles to haue their authoritie in Churches and they themselues did greately require to be obeyed but bycause in that they sought nothing vnto themselues but only saluation aud the glorie of God in those whome they ruled they did gouerne the Churches they had euery where the superioritie they ruled suche as beleeued they woulde haue the godlie to bee obedient vnto them interim nihilominùs seruierunt omnibus dominati sunt nemini And yet in the meane tyme serued all and had dominion ouer none So also in the Ciuill gouernmente who was euer in greater dignitie than Moses or more to bee feared for his authoritie and power and yet who euer serued mo more diligently and more humblye whiche neuer soughte any thing for himselfe or tooke any thing vnto himselfe c. but day and nighte to the vttermoste of his power sought for the safetie of the people c. If any now so beare office and rule the workes of the handes of the Lorde and gouerne the sheepe of his pasture according to his will what doth he else but serue all those whom he gouerneth And The place of Math. 20. generall therefore Christ doth not here dehort from bearing rule and being a Magistrate but from seeking rule and dominion for I had rather take this saying of the Lord in this generalitie than to restrayne it to the Apostles only Eò quòd omnino pius Magistratus seruiat non dominetur
both in the Discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certaine reasons why there shoulde be other gouernment nowe than was in the tyme of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You sette downe foure rules whiche you woulde haue all orders and ceremonies of The first rule of T. C. concerning ceremonies examined the Church framed by c. The first is 1. Cor. 10. that they offende not any especially the Churche of God whiche rule I thinke you take out of these wordes of that Chapter Tales estote vt nullum praebeatis offendiculum neque Iudaeis c. be suche as you giue no offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Grecians nor to the Churche of God But truly they make 1. Co. 10. ve 32. little or nothing for your purpose neither yet any other thing conteyned in that chapter For the Apostle there sheweth how one priuate man should behaue himself towardes an other yea and towardes the Church in things that may be done or not The orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans liking or mislyking be done he prescribeth no generall rule for the Churche to make orders and appoynte Ceremonies by For what reason were it that the orders of the Churche shoulde so depende vppon one or two mennes lyking or misselyking that she should be compelled to alter the same so ofte as any shoulde therwith be offended Which must of necessitie come to passe if thys your rule were generall For what Churche is voide of some contentious persons quarellers whō no order no reason no reformatiō Musculus can please It is true that Musculus sayth There bee some whō no churche can please hauing alwayes some thing to reproue in other men and nothing in themselues The Anabaptistes the Libertines the Papistes and other vnquiet myndes and contentious persons are offended with such rites and Ceremonies as the reformed Churches vse neither is there as I suppose any reformed Church voyde of some of these kinde of persons shall they therfore by and by alter the forme and state S. Paule in this place would haue no iuste offence giuen to any either faithfull or infidell For Christians ought to be such at whose examples doctrine and lyfe no man mighte iustely take any offence True it is that in all orders and Ceremonies the Church must take héed that there be no iust offence giuen but she hath not to depend vpon euery priuate mans iudgement Whereas you say especially the Churche of God you adde to the wordes of the Apostle T. C. addeth to the texte to make it serue his turne for he sayth not especially and if you marke his meaning well you shall rather finde that he woulde haue especiall care taken that there be no offence giuen to such as are not yet come to the Churche whiche some vnderstand by the Iewes and Grecians least they shoulde still be withdrawne from the Churche when as there is no suche feare to be had of those that be alreadie membres of the same The seconde rule of T. C. allowed The iudgemēt of comelinesse and order resteth not in euery priuate person The thirde rule examined Your seconde rule 1. Cor 14. is a good and necessarie rule not onely alledged by me b t allowed and imbraced as moste conueniente but who shall iudge what is moste comely and the best order shall euery priuate man or rather such as haue the chiefe care and gouernment of the Churche This is a rule prescribed by the Apostle to the Church wherby she must direct hir orders and gouernment not to euery priuato person to picke a quarell to disquiet the Church The third 1. Cor. 14. that all be doone to edifying This sentence can not be applyed ge nerally to all things vsed in the Churche if we truly interprete the meaning of the Apostle but to the gifte of toungs to prayers and to prophecies whereof he hath made mētion before Neither can I perceiue that any learned Interpreter doth take it as a general rule for al rites and ceremonies but only for the exercises of Praying singing of Psalmes interpreting and Prophecying For of things vsed in the Church some pertaine to instruction and some to order and comelinesse For the firste he giueth thys rule Letal things be done to edifying For both the first and the second he giueth this Omnia decenter c. Let all things be done decently and in order Althoughe those ceremonies and rites whiche are appointed by the Churche for order and comlinesse do edifie In the treatise of appare tract 7. as Ceremonies that is not of themselues but per accidens accidentally as I haue in an other place declared It is sufficient if the Gouernours of the Church and suche as haue authoritie to ordeyne suche rites doe thynke them to be profitable in the respect of the tyme person and place neyther muste euerie priuate mannes iudgement in this case be respected as it is well sette downe by the Articles agréed vpon by the Dutche Churche in London allowed by M. Beza and by diuers other reformed Churches It is the thirde article Quid porrò ad aedificationem faciat c. Moreouer Theses Ecclesia Belgio-germanicae arti 3. what is profytable to edifye and what is not is not to be determined by the iudgemente of the common people nor of some on man nor yet by the issue of mens actions c. I can net vnderstande out of what parte of the. 14. to the Romaines youre laste The last rule pertaineth no more to ceremonies thā to other actions rule is taken except it be the sixt seuen or eyght verses out of the whiche I would gladly knowe howe you can deriue any rule to frame ceremonies by rather than all other actions of man whatsoeuer These be your rules to square by and truly we refuse them not thoughe some of them pertain nothing to your purpose The Dutch Churche and the other Churches in the. 11. of those articles before mentioned touching cōmaunding or forbidding indifferent things determin thus Qui propter aliam rationem c. They whiche for any other cause either cōmand or forbid at their pleasure the free vse of indifferēt things then for one Theses Eccles. Belg. art 11. of these three that is neither for edifying nor for policy nor ecclesiastical order especially those which do rashly iudge other mēs cōsciences in these matters offēd heynonsly against god against their neighbours Wherby they séeme to allow any order takē in indifferent things if it tend either to edifying or policie or ecclesiastical order But to return to your Reply y t which you speak of houre time day of prayer c. iustifie my saying for they be not expressed in the scripture as you also now affirm but left to the ordering not of euery priuate man but of the Churche or such as haue the chief care and gouernment of the
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
question I omit that whyche he speaketh of this matter in his booke de sancto spiritu Idem where althoughe he gyueth too muche authoritie to vnwritten traditions yet dothe it there appeare that many thyngs were then vsed in the Church of Christ whyche were not expressed in the worde of God I myghte here alleage Socrates who Socrates in his sifte Booke and. 22. Chapter of hys ecclesiasticall historie handleth this matter at large and speakyng of Easter he saythe The Apostle and the Gospell doe in no place laye a bonde of seruitude vpon them whyche come to the preaching But men them selues haue euery one according as they thoughte meete in theyr countryes celebrated of custome the feast of Easter and other feastes for the resting from laboure and the remembrance of the healthfull passion c. and in the same Chapter No Religion obserueth the same rytes althoughe it embrace the same doctrine of them for they doe differ among themselues in rytes whiche are of the same fayth And so he procéedeth in declaryng the varietie of Ceremonyes and other obseruances and rytes in the Churches whereby it is manyfest that by hys Indgement many things are committed to the disposition of the Churche whyche are not expressed in the worde of God And that the Churche hathe vsed thys libertie from tyme to tyme to the same effecte speaketh Sozome Lib. 7. Cap. 19. They he meaneth Policarpus and Victor thought Sozome it follye and not wythoute cause to be separated one from another for Ceremonyes or Customes whyche dyd agree in the principall poyntes of Religion for you can not fynde the same rytes and altogether lyke in all Churches no thoughe they doe agree together I myghte pester thys Booke and that you knowe well enoughe wyth the iudgement of all the auncient Fathers that haue any occasion to speake of this matter but these maye suffice to declare that I haue not vainely vsed their names for mutes on the stage Touchyng Councels I maruayle you wyll make any doubte of them whervnto Councels of things indifferent tende the moste of theyr Canons in matters of Ceremonyes and gouernmente of the Churche but to teache that the Scriptures haue not expressed all thyngs concernyng the same bnt lefte them to the order and appoyntment of the Churche I praye you where shall you fynde in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani Conci de vicarijs Episcoporum eorum potestate or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum ecclesiastica iura vendere and diuerse others in the same Councell or the. 11. Canon Concil Nencaes Nicaenum Neocaesari of the certayne age of hym that ought to be minister or the. 1. Canon Concil Nicaeni of Enuches the fourth of ordering Byshoppes the sixte of Metropolitans the seuenth of the Byshop of Ierusalem the twentith of standyng in the tyme of Prayer or the. 7. Canon Concil Gangren or the. 18. or 20. or y e. 11. 15. 18. 19. c. Concil Arelatens Gangrense Arelatens But what shoulde I trouble the reader wyth suche particular rehearsals of so manye Councels whiche haue made suche a number of Canons concernyng suche matters as muste be ordered in the Churche whereof the Scripture hath particularly determyned nothyng is it not therefore manyfest that Councels both generall and prouinciall by their actes declare that touchyng Cer monyes discipline and gouernment of the Churche many things are lefte to the discretion of the Church whiche be not expressed in the Scriptures And whereas you charge me for not alleaging of Scriptures if I woulde Scriptures of things indifferent wythoute discretion cyte places nothyng pertayning to the purpose as you hytherto haue done I coulde vse a number but I had rather haue one texte to my purpose than a hundred wroong and wrested as yours be Howebeit there is no cause why you shoulde as yet complayne for hitherto I haue alleaged moe than you haue answered To the. 1. Cor. 14. as yet vnanswered I maye ioyne that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle sayth 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis You keepe the ordinances as I delyuered them to you The whych wordes Maister Caluine expoundyng sayth on thys sorte I doe not denye but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine not written but I doe not graunt them to haue beene taken as partes of doctrine or necessarie vnto saluation VVhat then euen suche as dyd pertayne to order and pollicie For vve knovve that euerie Churche hathe libertie to ordayne and appoint suche a forme of gouernment as is apte and profitable for it bycause the Lorde therein hath prescribed no certainetie So Paule the firste founder of the Church of Corinthe dyd also frame it wyth honest and godly institutions that all things might there be done decently ▪ and in order And that also which is in the end of the Chapter Other things wyll I set in order when I come Wherevpon the same Maister 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine Caluine sayth But let suche toyes passe seyng that it is certaine that Paule speaketh but of externall comelynesse the vvhiche as it is put in the libertie of the Churche so it is to be appoynted accordyng to the tyme places and persons In déede I glory not in wordes so muche of the Scriptures as yeu d ee but I truste that I haue as sure grounde there for anye thyng that I haue affyrmed as you haue and muche more else woulde I be sorye It is not beasting of the Scriptures in wordes and falsely applying of them that can cary away the matter with those that be learned and wyse you knowe what Maister Caluine saythe of the Anabaptists in hys Booke written against them Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Caluin aduersus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists alwayes pretended the worde of God Christiani c. But bicause the wofull Christians whiche with a zeale doe followe God can not by any other more notable shewe be seduced than when the worde of God is pretended the Anabaptistes agaynst whome we write haue that euermore in their mouthe and alwayes talke of it And yet in lawfull matters not expressed in the Scriptures I knowe not to whome we shoulde resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but to the Councels stories and doctors The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 1. That notable learned Father Augustine hathe diuerse sayings Augustin touchyng thys matter worthy to be noted In his Epistle ad Casulanum 86. he sayth thus In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt in those thyngs vvherein the holy Scripture hathe determined no certainetie the custome of the people of God the traditions or decrees of our forefathers are
of the passion and resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the Apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessitie of keeping of them least happily in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lye betweene the Councels and the Apostles whiche of them decreed this And do you not perceyue howe you still reason agaynst your selfe For if the Church haue had so great regarde to that whiche the Apostles did in the es that they kepte those things which are not written and therefore are doubtfull whether euer they vsed them or no howe much ore shoulde we holde our selues to these things whiche are written that they did and of the which we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holydayes I will referre the Reader vnto an other place where occasion is giuen agayne to speake of them Io. Whitgifte My meaning therein I haue set downe in my answere It is to let you vnderstande The rule of S. Augustine doth not establishe but ouerthrow p perie S. Augustines iudgement in the matter we haue in hande The rule is true and good and so farre from establishing any péece of Poperie that if rather quite ouerthroweth the same By it we may proue the supremacie whiche the Bishop of Rome claymeth ouer all Churches neither to be written in the worde nor yet to be appoynted by the Apostles nor yet determined by auncient generall Councels for neither hath he bin alwayes nor in all places taken to be the head of the Church And it is manyfest that Phocas the traytor and murderer gaue first vnto him and his Churche that prerogatiue and therfore not lefte vnto him by the Apostles nor giuen him by the generall Councels The like may be sayde of all other thinges vsed in the Churche agaynst the worde of God For it is certayne that they haue not béene generally obserued in all places and at all times and if some of them haue bëene so obserued yet not in that maner and forme that the Churche of Rome dothe nowe obserue them So that you finde fault with this rule before you haue cause Master Zuinglius who woulde haue béene lothe one whit to strengthen the Papistes speaking of the lyke place of S. Augustine in his booke de baptismo sayth thus But leauing those thinges Zuingl de baptis of the rule of Aug. let vs returne to the wordes of Augustine who among other thinges addeth this Quanquà m quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concitijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur c. Let these words sayth he preuayle with other mē as they may yet no mā can denie but that there lieth great waight of authoritie in them For if there be nothing in Councels concluded of the baptising of Infants and yet the same was vniuersally of the whole Churche obserued in Angustines time what other thing can be gathered but that it hathe alwayes beene vsed without contradiction Master Caluine also Lib. Insti Cap. 13. Sect. 21. vseth this rule of Augustine to the same purpose where he speaking of Popishe traditions for the whiche they abuse the authoritie of Augustine saythe thus Ego verò non aliundè quam ex ipsius Augustini verbis solutionem afferam Quae toto inquit terrarum orbe seruantur vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel concilijs generalibus quorum est in ecclesia saluberrimā authoritas statuta esse intelligere licet Verily I will fetche a solution from no other place than from the very wordes of Augustine Those thinges sayth he which are obserued throughout the whole world are vnderstode to haue bin instituted either of the Apostles themselues or of generall Councels c. As it is in the answere to the Admonition I knowe no reason why the Apostles maye not be sayde to be the authors of celebrating the day of the Passion c. Neither yet doe I vnder stande anye cause why the Churche maye not still obserue the same sure I am that they were not the authors of the superstitions and errours vsed in them by the Papistes neyther dothe Augustine saye so for this is no good argument to saye the Apostles appoynted these dayes to be celebrated Ergo they appoynted the manner of celebrating vsed by the Papistes The dayes maye be wyth more godlynesse and profite to the Churche obserued béeing clensed from super stition and erroneous doctrine than abrogated Neyther is thys to open a gate to Papisticall traditions but to shutte it close vp as I haue sayde before For let the Papistes if they can name anye wycked thing vsed in their Churche whiche eyther bathe béene generally obserued or wherof I am not able to shewe the first author and inuentor Neyther Aug in this place nor I in any place haue sayde or con it 〈◊〉 thing not cōntayned in the Scripture to bee so necessarie to bee obserued that vpon inst consideration it may not be altered by suche as haue authoritie And 〈◊〉 all that you doe say haue sayd or shall say 〈◊〉 that effecte is forged and vntrue deuised onely by you as a shifte to flye vnto when otherwise you are to seeke for answere To these your wordes they are necessarie to be kept if they be commanded by the Apostles ▪ meaning suche things as Augustine speaketh of I answere with master Caluin who as I tolde you before writing vpon these wordes 1. Cor11 Quemadmodum tradidi vobis c. dothe graunt that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written but he denieth them to be taken aspartes of doctrine o necessarie to saluation saying that they be onely suche as pertayne to order and pollicie The rest of this section of yours is nothing but Petitio Principij For neither doe I moue any such doubt in Augustines words neither is it materiall whether I do or no nether yet is it true that there is any thing commaunded of God or of the Apostles as necessarie to saluation whiche is not contayned in the worde of God neyther are these and suche like traditions partes of doctrine and of saluation as M. Caluin truely sayth but of order and pollicie Who woulde thinke that any man excepte he had hardened his face without A grosse error of T. C. blushing to affirme vntruthes would haue fallen into suche grosse absurdities and vttered suche straunge assertions voyde of all truthe Haue you euer read in Scripture or in the writinges of any learned man or can you by reason proue this Paradox that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation What is to lay an intollerable yoke and burthen vpon the neckes of men if this be not or whereby could you more directly bring vs into the bondage of the lawe from the whiche we are made free than by this assertion for if all the commaundements Gal. 5. of God c. are needefull for
the words of the Apostle than eyther to S. Augustines or yours whiche sayth that if he or an Angell from heauen shoulde preache any other (1) M Doctor speaketh not of preaching another Gospell but of appoynting other rites and orders Gospel than that whiche he had preached that they shoulde holde him accursed he saythe not any contrarie or repugnant doctrine but any other Gospell But tell me why (2) Bicause it nothing pertaineth to my purpose S. Aug. mangled and not truely reported passed you by that in Augustine which he writeth to Ianuarie likewise that those thinges whiche are not contayned in the Scripture nor decreed of Councels nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the maners of Regions and of men vpon occasion offered oughte to be cutte off althoughe they seeme not to be agaynst faythe because they presse with seru e burdens the religion whiche Christe woulde haue free This sentence belyke was to hotte for you you could not carie it Therest whose names you recite whiche you say you leaue off for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherefore they bee lefte out seeing that Augustine in whome you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation This is certayne that bre tie whiche you pretende was in small commendations wyth you (3) Wordes of pleasure whiche make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of doctours and wryters to proue thinges that no man denieth translate whole leaues to so small purpose (4) Tu pe est doctori c. vpon so lighte occasions make so often digressions sometymes agaynst the vnlearnednesse sometymes agaynst the malice sometymes agaynst the intemperancie of speeche of the authors of the Admonition and euery hande whyle pulling oute the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole booke sporting your selfe with the quotations in the margent so that if all these were taken oute of your booke as winde out of a bladder we shoulde haue had it in a narrowe roome whiche is thus swelled into suche a volume and in steade of a booke of two shillings we should haue had a pamflet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whiche is alleaged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctours to measure the making of ceremonies by whiche you mighte haue had in the Scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountayne vncertayne there whiche heere are certayne there parte false whiche are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and laste of all howe they make agaynst you Io. Whitgifte I take that whiche you graunte bothe the first rule whiche is Quod neque contra fidem c. and the laste of the thrée with what interpretation soeuer you admitte them serue my turne very well and fully proue my present purpose Wherefore in graunting of them you haue graunted as muche to me as hitherto I haue desired Of the rules out of S. Paule I haue spoken before so haue I likewyse of the endes whiche the Churche must haue a respect vnto in hir decrées of orders ceremonies and gouernment wherof also I shall haue occasion to speake hereafter The seconde of the three rules you can not at any hande allowe but there is no cause why you should mislike it For Augustine did giue it as a rule méete for his tyme not for all tymes althoughe it may serue also for all times if his meaning be ioyned wyth it that is If that which is vniuersally obserued of the whole Churche be not repugnant to the worde of God and so it strengtheneth not one whit the Papistes pretended vniuersalitie In mattrrs of order ceremonies and gouernment it is sufficient if they be not repugnant to the scripture Neither do I thinke any great difference to be betwixt not repugnant to the worde of God and according to the worde That whiche is generally obserued and of that kinde that the rule meaneth is Decrees that perteyne to order comelinesse are not only humane not onely mans tradition and decree but Gods also M. Caluin teacheth you in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. that suche kinde of decrees as pertayne to order and comelynesse are not onely humane but diuine And he bringeth in for an example knéeling at publike prayers S. Augustines meaning is that he would haue no factions or contentions in the Church or any man to trouble the peace thereof by setting him selfe agaynst lawfull orders and customes of the same otherwise I thinke that he neither forbiddeth to enquire or reason of any such matter But you think that Augustine was so adicted to such decrées of the Apostles that his meaning was to haue them receyued without all exception Surely I thinke that he was so persuaded in déede of such decrées as he meaneth and speaketh of in that place But for as muche as in suche rules he hath sundrie times made suche exceptions Quod neque cóntra fidem c. therfore this rule also is to be receyued of vs according to his meaning in all suche like rules God forbid that I should not take heede to those words of the Apostle hold him accursed which shall preache any other Gospell than that which he had preached For I take him that preacheth any other Gospell to preache contrarie and repugnant doctrine to the Apostle and vndoubtedly he that teacheth any thing to be necessary to saluation which is not comprehended in the scripture teacheth a false doctrine and cleane contrarie to the doctrine of the Scripture But you do not vse this place I am sure agaynst any thing that is héere sayde Our question is not of matters pertayning to saluation but of ceremonies of externall orders and discipline Whereof S. Paule speaketh nothing in that place I make them not matters of saluation neither are they I will tell you why I passed by that whych S. Augustine writeth to Ianuary Epist. 119. and is nowe recited by you because it nothing pertayneth to my purpose and yet it is rather with me than agaynst me But let me nowe aske you an other question why do you not truly report S. Augustines S. Augustine mangled and vntruely reported by T. C. words but mayme them both before behinde and in the middest for Augustine in the wordes that immediatly go before sayth That he was muche gréeued because that many things which were more profitably commaunded in the worde of God were neglected by reason of so many presumptuous obseruations of outwarde ceremonies the omitting whereof was more greeuously punished than the breaking of Gods commaundements And vpon this occasion he concludeth thus Omnia itaque talia quae neque sanctorum c. All suche ceremonies scilicet as be impediments to the obseruing of the
commaundement of God and are preferred before Gods commaundementes beeing neither contayned in the holy Scriptures nor founde decreed in the Councels of Bishops nor cōfirmed by the custome of the whole Church but are varied innumerably by the diuers maners of diuers Regions so that scarcely or neuer the causes can be found out whiche men followed in appoynting of them when occasion is offered I thinke they ought to he cut off without any doubt Hitherto Augustine Therefore in reciting the wordes of S. Augustine in this place first you haue omitted the wordes going before that expresse his mynde and declare that he meaneth suche ceremonies as be impedimentes to the obseruing of Gods commaundementes for hauing spoken of suche before in manyfest wordes he concludeth as I haue sayde on this sort Omnia itaque talia c. All suche ceremonies c. whiche words you haue fraudulently kept backe Secondly where S. Augustine speaketh of the vnreasonable multitude of ceremonies vsing these wordes innumerabiliter variantur are varied innumerably you haue likwyse lefte out this word innumerably which also expresseth Augustines meaning Laste of all you haue concealed a sentence in the middest whiche is very materiall to the declaring of Augustine his minde The sentence is this Ita vt vix aut omninò nunquà m inueniri possint causae quas in eis instituendis homines secuti sunt So that scarcely or neuer the causes can be founde oute whiche men followed in appoynting of them Whereby it is playne that he also meaneth suche ceremonies as bée appoynted without reason or cause And yet in the latter ende he addeth But the Churche of God beeing placed betwixte muche chaffe and darnell dothe tollerate many thinges c. But I am so farre from defending the multitude or burdensomnesse of ceremonies that I consent in all poyntes with that saying of Augustine wherefore this sentence is nothing to hotte for me but pleaseth me righte well And it had bin more for your commendation if you had not medled withall They whose names I héere recite thoughe I haue not written their wordes yet in the places whiche I haue qnoted doe affirme as muche as I recite them for whiche you might haue founde if you had taken paynes to searche for the same as I thinke verily you haue done and founde little for your purpose and therfore are content to passe them ouer in silence If I make so ofte repetitinons I doe but as I am occasioned by them whome I answere and as you do your selfe in this Replie though it pleaseth you not to be acknowne of it The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuffe in argue that I haue red them and that I am not ashamed to lay them open to the ende my playne dealing may be séene in alledging of them But what did you before fynde faulte with my Dumbe doctors and can you not nowe abyde them speaking surely I intend not to be directed by so vnconstant a guyde If I proue things that no man denyeth you hadde the lesse laboure in replying If I translate whole leaues to so small purpose they be the sooner answered if vpon so lighte occasions I haue made so often digressions you will take héede I am well assured that you offende not in the lyke which truly you haue forgotten in this place for here is a digression without all reason But I will let your reuerende and modeste speaches passe and not recompence them with the lyke for it neither sauoureth the spirite of God neither yet any modest and good nature but a stomack swelling rather against the person than against the cause My purpose is not in this place to seke for rules to measure Ceremonies by but to proue that in Ceremonies and other externall things muche is lefte to the discretion of the Churche whiche is not to be founde in Scriptures and yet I know none of these rules vnméete for a diuine to search for or to vnderstand vnlesse it be suche a one as contemneth all other mens learning but his owne But how happeneth it that you haue answered nothing to the last place that I haue alleaged out of Augustine Or why say you nothing to my conclusion whiche is that by all those places of this learned father it is euident c. In all this your replie you haue greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi for you haue not reasoned nor answered ad idem but spoken altogether from the purpose T. C fauire in ignorantia Elenchi ▪ ¶ The opinion of M. Caluin of things indifferent Chap. 4. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 25. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 26. 27. 28. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. Caluines iudgement will weigh something with them who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. 32. speaking of traditions sayth in this sort Bicause the Lorde hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended and declared in the holie scriptures the whole summe of true righteousnesse all the parts of the true worshipping of him and what so euer is necessarie vnto saluation therfore in those things he is only to be heard as a maister or teacher But bicause in externall discipline ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe vvhat we ought to folow bicause he foresavv that this depended vpon the state and condition of the time neyther did iudge one form or maner to be agreable to al ages here we must haue a respect to those general rules which he gaue that according to thē might be examined such things as the necessitie of the Church requireth to be cōmanded for order decencie Finally bicause in these things he hath expressed nothing for that they are neither necessarie to saluation and may be diuersly applied to the edifying of the Church according to the maner and custome of euery countrey and age Therfore as the cōmoditie of the Church requireth as shal be thought conuenient both the old may be abrogated nevve appointed I graunt that we must not rashely nor often nor for euery lighte cause make innouations But vvhat hurteth and vvhat edifieth charitie wil best iudge which if vve vvil suffer to be the moderatrix al shal be safe wel Now it is the office of Christian people vvith a free cōscience vvithout su-superstition with a godlie minde and readie and willing to obey to obserue those things which are appointed according to this rule not to contemne them nor negligently to omit them so farre off ought they to be from breaking them openly thorough disdaine and contumacie But thou wilte say vvhat libertie of conscience can there be in so precise and straight obseruing of them truely the libertie of conscience may well stand vvich it if we shall consider that these lavves and decrees to the which we are bounde be not perpetuall or suche as are not to be abrogated but only externall rudiments of mans infirmities wherof notvvithstanding we all stande not in neede yet vvee all vse them bicause one
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
so that that reason may shewe what Aaron thought of it and this what was the opinion of the people I would haue you to deale sincerely in alleaging of the scriptures You put me ouer to the treatises of godly newe wryters which doe refuse this distinction c. But you neither name those wryters vnto me nor let me vnderstande where to finde those treatises whiche maketh me suspecte that you neyther knowe whose nor where they be but the matter is not greate I doe as muche mislike that distinction of the Papistes and the intent of it as any man dothe neyther doe I goe aboute to excuse them from wycked and without repentance and Gods singular mercy damnable Idolatrie But yet doe I saye the Idolatrie bothe of the Iewes and of the Gentiles for the causes by me alleaged to be muche greater For there Three kindes of Idolatrie Martyr in Iud. 2. Musculus in Lo. com in expla 1. praecept are thrée kyndes of Idolatrie One is when the true God is worshipped by other meanes and wayes than he hathe prescribed or woulde be worshipped The other is when the true God is worshipped togither wyth false Gods 2. Regum 17. The thirde is when we worship false Gods eyther in harte and mynde or in externall creatures liuing or dead and altogither forget the worshippe of the true God All these thrée kindes are detestable but the first is the least and the laste is the worste in the whiche kinde the Israelites sundrie tymes offended as is manifest in the places before mentioned The Papistes worship God otherwyse than his will is and otherwise than he hathe prescribed almoste in all poyntes of their worship they also giue to the creature that whiche is due to the Creator and sinne agaynst the first table yet are they not for ought that I can see or learne in the thirde kinde of Idolatrie and therfore if they repent vnfaynedly they are not to be caste either out of the Churche or out of the ministerie The Papistes haue little cause to thanke me or to fée me for any thing that I haue spoken in their behalfe as yet you sée that I place them among wicked and damnable Idolaters My defense is of those that haue bin Papistes and be not and for no other for them I speake my conscience according to my poore knowledge take it as you please Of Ministers learning of Catechismes Chap. 3. Admonition The thirde Then (p) 1. Tim. 4. II they taught others nowe they muste be instructed themselues and therfore like yong children they (q) Ministers of London 〈◊〉 ioyned to learne M. Novvels C techisme muste learne Catechismes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Pag ▪ 41 ▪ Sect. 1. 2. God be thanked there is a great number of Ministers that can teach others and may be your scholemasters in al kinde of learning except you haue more than you vtter in these treatises If they that finde some want of learning in themselues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned either of their owne accord or by commaundement of their Ordinarie reade and learne godly and learned Catechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Catechisme whiche you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that learned and necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men best learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth chapter of the first to Timothie doth not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 2. 3. What shoulde become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fit to be Ministers and to teache other than he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouersighte to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were muche to compell them to reade it And if a man would haue dec amed agaynst the ignorance of the moste parte of the ministers three whole dayes togither he coulde not haue sayde more agaynst them than that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion Howe knowe you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision beeing also placed there * It followeth euen as the rest of your argu ments do for it is your own and no mans else But howe followeth this It is meete that ministers shoulde learne euery day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Catechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Catechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them Is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the Minister than to learne Catechismes or dothe a man learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade things sometime to recorde the things that he hathe learned For bicause they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Catechisme you conclude of their wordes that they woulde not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing whiche is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them Io. Whitgifte God be thanked the people néede not pyne awaye for lacke of foode they haue the Scriptures read vnto them they haue also profitable and fruitef ll Homilies they haue the Sacramentes rightly ministred and publyke prayers in a knowne tongue and sometyme God sendeth vnto them some well disposed preacher further to instructe them and the Curate is not so slothefull and carelesse but that he will also communicate with them that whiche he himselfe hathe by diligent reading learned Catechismes and that especially doe conteyne the groundes of religion and the principall poyntes of faythe and good lyfe and therefore not vnfitte or vnprofitable for any man to reade I know not what weightier matters they can learne than those that be conteyned in that booke excepte you thinke nothing waightie but suche matters as you nowe contende for and for the which you so muche disturbe the peace of the Churche It is well done to enioyne them to learne it and it shall be no disgracing no not to your selfe to reade it We doe not denie but that there be vnlearned Ministers in Englande and we thinke it no discredite at all to enioyne them to learne suche thinges as are moste profitable bothe for them to knowe and to teache vnto other To reade and
for it behoued the Apostles to be chosen immediatly of God In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set downe what the Church did obserue But in another place we may gather by Paule that they of Asia vsed the holding vp of hands which manner was vsuall with the most of the Graecians wherefore there is no cause why any man should ouercuriously prescribe here any certaine rule c. Now to reherse what varietie hath bin vsed in the Churches touching this election Uarietie vsed in the electiōs in y e pr tiue Churches Caluine were néedelesse it shall be sufficient only to set downe that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti cap. 8. Sect. 60. c. wher first he declareth that the rule of S. Paule touching the qualities of a minister is to be obserued and that he is to be examined according to the same Then doth he shew how that there hath not always one order bin obserued touching the electours and appointers for sometimes none was chosen without the consent of the whole people and other sometimes the people committed the choise to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors except it were in the election of the Bishop And sometimes onely the ministers did first choose and then offer those whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senat or to the chiefe rulers who ratifyed the election if they liked it if not then did they choose out other c. This varietie of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles Can. Apost 36 that Bishops were not then chosen by the consent of the people for that canon speaketh of such Byshops as being appoynted to some Church were not receyued by the people and yet remayned Bishops still To the like effect is the. 18. can Con. Ancyra Con Ancyr can 18. Con. Antioch can 17. 18. Con Laodic can 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commaundement in the Ceremoniall law for the election of the ministers of the Gospell The place Numbers 8. proueth not his purpose and the. 17. and. 18. of the Councell of Antioch In the. 12. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea it is decréed that the Metropolitane with other Byshops adioyning should haue the election of Byshops and of such as are to be preferred to a cure And the. 13. Can. of the same councell doth forbid that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people So that you sée your manner of electing by the people not to haue bin in all Churches in all purer times It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commaundement to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers when you are constrayned to fetch one out of the booke of Numbers and that nothing at all perteyning to your purpose For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election First the people there did not elect the Leuits Secondly they laid their hands vpon them which I am sure you will not haue the people to do in the ordeyning of Byshops for you say that only elders and ministers vsed to lay on their hands So that this place of the Booke of Numbers doth commaund that whiche you will not admitte and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do alledge it But tell me in good earnest will you bind vs to the obseruation of the Ceremonial law also as you haue done before to the iudiciall For what else is there in that whole chapter but lawes touching ceremonies and in that place by you alleadged especially for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Leuites and of their offering he speaketh not of any election For God himselfe had chosen the Leuites before for the first borne of the children of Israell cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how vndiscréetely you alleadge the scriptures lest you should séeme to be voyde of scripture You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremonie consecrate them Would you haue the people to consecrate ministers by laying on of hands do you not care what absurdities and contrarieties you speake you make a distinction in that whiche followeth betwixte ordeyning electing and you say that election perteyneth to the people ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 40. lin vlt. c. Pag. 31. sect 4. And in another place that the imposition of handes was not by the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers But if this be a commaundement for vs now to obserue then must you recant that saying I doe admitte this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremoniall lawe but I doe not The dealings of T. C. tend to Iudaisme admit it as a perpetuall commaundement bicause I knowe the Ceremoniall lawe is abrogated excepte you will haue all those Ceremonies whiche were vsed in that place and are conteyned in the same commaundement as of sprinkling them with water of shauing their bodies of washing their clothes of laying their handes on the heads of bullocks c. practized in ordering ministers of the Gospel Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie but yours smelleth of Iudaisme for you bounde vs before to the Iudiciall law and now you will bind vs to the Ceremoniall also what remayneth but to say that Christ is not yet come Circumcision is a figure of baptisme but the Leuiticall priesthoode is no figure of the ministerie of the Gospell therfore we may well proue the baptizing of Infantes by circumcision but we can not proue the ordering of ministers of the Gospell by the ceremonies vsed about the Leuites Those examples of the Apostles doe well proue the baptizing of children bicause Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded vpon these generall places of the Scriptures Ego sum Deus tuus c. I am thy God and the God of thy seede c. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes Baptizing all nations The contention is not whether discipline c. be necessarie but whether one kinde be necessarie Of discipline also and gouernment I haue something spoken before and minde to speake hereafter when further occasion is offered in this place it is answere sufficient to say that the contention is not whether discipline or gouernment be necessarie in the Churche or no but whether this or that kinde of discipline and gouernment be necessarie and whether there be one certayne kinde and forme of discipline and gouernment to be vsed in the Churche at all times and in all places As for Pastors Bishops Doctors Deacons c. they be necessarie ministers in the Churche but it doth not therfore follow that there must be alwayes one kinde and forme of gouernment Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 1. And I adde that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kinde of electing and calling
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
bycause the Churche was then vnder Persecution doth both diminishe increase y e number of professors the Crosse therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell for sodde I say bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors doe increase rather than diminishe in the time of persecution yet is it not so with hypocrites and dissemblers who would séeme to professe the Gospell and whom also we must count professors bycause we sée not their hartes This is manifest by this example In the time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie how many was there in London that séemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same but when the time of persecution came vnder Quéens Marie what became of that number howe fewe was there then in comparison doe you not thinke that if God should send a triall there would be founde in that citie many false brethren Moreouer in the time of prosperitie true Christians may without daunger shew themselues and remaine in their cities though the number be neuer so great but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places We may learne in the. 8. of the Actes that the Churche wholy remayned at Ierusalem vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer and that then they were dispersed shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution were few in comparison True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged yet in the meane time was the number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished Thus then you maye vnderstande if you please that this is a good reason to say the Church was then in persecution and therefore very few incomparison that embraced the Gospell both in the respect of the visible Church generally and also in respect of the same Churche particularly in euery ceuntrey or citie And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche but that séede must haue time to grow in and I speake of the externall professors of the Gospell That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the kéeping together and often méeting of such Churches as be persecuted confirmeth my meaning for I saye they kept together in the time of persecution and you affirme the same wherevpon I also conclude that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution is a cause of better knowing one another theirs is or rather more frequent yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with another or to consider one another or to knowe one another as they haue for they then admitte none into their societie at their méetings but such as are knowen to be brethren and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall And I thinke that those which haue béen exercised eyther in Fraunce or elsewhere in any suche time of persecutiō know this to be true that they know none so throughly or are acquainted with none so intirely as with such who haue béen with them in the time of persecution You would fayne if you coulde confute a knowne truth and a manifest thing for who would denie but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution muste of necessitie be knowne among themselues and beste iudge who is fittest among them for any function Chap. 6. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 3. Secondly in the Apostles time all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrits c. were vertuous and godly and suche as dyd sincerely professe the worde and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed to them nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites dissemblers drunkardes whoremongers c. so that if anye election were committed to them they woulde be sure to take one lyke to themselues T. C. Page 34. Sect. I. To your second difference I answere that in deede there be Hypocrites in our Churches now and so were there then but more nowe than then I graunt you that also but there is no greate daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or Bishop for that in such open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so sincerely so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they doe is in closer and secreter matters But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware how euill successe the preaching of the Gospell hath had here for want of discipline and good Ecclesiasticall gouernmenie you bewraye a greate ignorance For althoughe a A daungerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes there be Hypocrites which beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednesse is onely knowne to God and therefore can not be discouered by men yet in * the churches of Christ there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least which are knowne For eyther vpon Admonition of the Churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte off by excommunication if they continue stubberne in their synnes and so are none of the Churche and therefore haue nothing to doe in the election of the Minister of the Churche And me thinketh you shoulde not haue bene ignorant of this that although there be tares in the floure of the Church which are lyke the wheate and therefore being grounde easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loafe yet there are no acornes which are bread for swine And although there be goat s amongst the flocke of the Churche bycause they haue some likelyhoode with the sheepe feedyng as Mat. 25. they doe giuing milke as they doe yet in the Churche of Christ there are no swine nor hogges it pertaineth to God onely to seuer the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the Churches can discerne betwene wheate and acornes betwene swine and sheepe Io. Whitgifte There be not onely Hypocrites which deale syncerely in nothing no not in publyke actions but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life who woulde no doubte be as corrupt in elections if they might haue to doe therein as they are in other matters In saying that the Church is now ful of Hypocrites drunkards whoremongers Drunkards whoremōgers in the visible churche c. I derogate no more from the good successe that the preaching of the Gospell hath had than the lyke or greater faultes dyd from the same in the Churche of Corinthe and Galatia The Churche is a net that gathereth together of all kinde of fyshe Mat. 13. it is a fielde wherein the deuill soweth tares as fast as the
husbandeman good Mat. 13. Mat. 22. Mat. 7. corne and for one that profitably heareth the word of God thrée doe the contrary as the parable of the sower declareth There be many called but fewe chosen And the gate is wyde that leadeth to perdition therefore it is no discredite to the Gospell or to the preaching thereof nor yet to the good gouernment of the Church to haue many wicked and vngodly persons which cannot possible be rooted out vntill the time of Harnest but this hath béen alwayes an Anabaptisticall cauill against the true Church of Christ and lawfull gouernment thereof as Bullinger declareth Lib. aduersus Anabap. Bullinger And vndoubtedly if this were a good argument to proue that the Gospell is not preached sincerely then Esai Ieremie and other of the Prophetes which had preached among the people many yeares and smally preuayled with them either concerning doctrine or manners preached not sincerely Wheras you say that in the Church of Christ there be no drunkards or whoremongers at the least which are knowne c. either doe you greatly ouershoote your selfe and forget the great crimes that were knowne to be in the Church of Corinthe or else woulde you secretly bring in the error of the Anabaptistes which say that not to be the true Church of Christ in the which there appeareth manifest crymes for the declaration of the A branch of Anabaptisme which error and confutation also I referre you to the thirde booke of Bul ▪ aduersus Anabap and the. 2. and. 3. chapter where you may likewise learne what profite hath cenie to this and the like Churches where the Gospell is professed by the preaching of the word though many wicked still remaine in the same I graunt you that these vyces when they be knowne ought to be punished But if eyther bycause those that be in authoritie doe not their duetie therein or else those vices continue notwithstanding therfore you will conclude that this is not the Church of Christ I tell you plainely that you haue already entred into one branche of Anabaptisme It cannot be denyed but that the euill are continually mirt with the good in thys world euen in the most purest Church and that then they abound especially when the Gospell is in prosperitie so that this is a good cause why the election of ministers may not safely be committed to the common people Chap. 6. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect 4. Thirdly in the Apostles time all that professed Christ had knowledge The people now ignorant and not able to iudge and wereable to iudge who were meete to be theyr pastour Nowe the most be ignorant and wythout iudgement in suche matters T. C ▪ Pag. 34. Sect. 2. If they had knowledge then it was bycause they were taughte and that they are ignorant You make a digression and answere not the reason nowe it is bycause they haue no good ministers to teache them and if the Churches should choose their ministers I am sure they could not choose worse than for the most part they haue nowe being thrust vpon them Io. Whitgifte They were then diligently taughte and they gaue them selues wholy to learne bycause it was a time of persecution in the which men be commonly beste disposed and sequestred as it were from all worldly cares lookyng continually to fall into the handes of the persecutors nowe thoughe they be in diuerse places well taught yet bycause they haue not suche a sense and féeling of the worde in the tyme of prosperitie as they haue vnder the crosse when the Churche of Christe is purest the election of theyr Ministers can not be so safely committed vnto them nowe as it myghte be then But why haue you not answered my reason for as yet that is vntouched Chap. 6. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 1. Fourthly in the Apostles tyme there was in the Churche no Idolaters The churche now full of Papistes and Atheistes c. no superstitious persons no Papistes nowe the Church is full of Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke who seeth not therfore what straunge ministers we should haue if the election of thē were committed to their seuerall parishes T. C. Pag. 34. Sect. 3. I see that when a man is out of his waye the further he goeth the worse Before you placed in the churche whoremongers and drunkardes as filthie swine in the Lordes courtes nowe you bryng in Papistes Idolaters and Atheistes whyche are not onely filthie but also poysoned and venomed beastes I am not ignorant of that distinction whyche sayth that there be in the Churche whiche are not of the Churche and those are Hypocrites as is before sayde but I woulde gladly learne of you what Scripture there is to proue that Idolaters and Papistes and Atheistes are in the Churche when Saynte Paule (a) The place is not rightly vn calleth all suche without the churche and wyth whome the Churche hathe nothyng to doe nor they with the churche you mighte as well haue placed in the churche Wolues Tigers Lions and Beares that is tyrants and persecutors For those ye speake of and in the iudgement of men and of the churche as well shut oute of it as they in the eye of the Lorde they maye be of the churche and so maye and are sometymes the persecutors them selues so that the election of the churche is not nor oughte not to be hyndered by those that haue nothyng to doe wyth it But nowe I heare you aske me what then shall become of the Papistes and Atheistes if you will not haue them be of the churche I answere that they may (b) This is true in the common wealth of the Turke but not in this common wealth be of and in the common wealth whiche neyther may nor can be of nor in the churche And therefore the churche hauing nothyng to doe with suche the Magistrate (c) Where finde you this ought ▪ oughte to see that they ioyne to heare the Sermons in the place where they are made whether it be in those parishes where there is a churche and so preaching or where else he shall thinke beste and cause them to be examined howe they profitte and if they profit not to punishe them and as their contempt groweth so to encrease the punishment vntill suche tymes as they declare manifest tokens of vn epentantnesse and then as rotten members that doe not onely no good nor seruice in the body but also corrupt and infect others cut them off And if they do profit in hearing then to be adioyned vnto that church which is next the place of their dwelling Io. Whitgifte How Papist c. be in the Church You muste of necessitie admitte this distinction some be of the Church and some be only in the Church else can you not make any visible Church for we only know who be in the Churche but who be of the Churche is knowne
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
by God therefore wee saye there are so manie heades of Churches as there are gouernours of countreys So that you sée the magistrate to be the head and chief gouernour of a particular church in this respect that it is a visible societie and must haue besides the spirituall an externall gouernment also whereof bicause the ciuill Magistrate is the head and chief therefore it can not be therin established without the ciuil magistrate Your spare speches for the authoritie of the Magistrate in the gouernment of the Church I will note in a seuerall place by themselues and therfore doe I the lyghtlyer passe them ouer in this place In the meane tyme this is no good argument to saye that the Magistrate is but a member of the Churche therefore he is not the heade and chiefe gouernoure thereof in earth for the head though it be the chiefe yet is it a parte of the bodie But you still confounde the visible and inuisible Churche of Christe the spirituall and externall gouernment of the same which confusion maye make you seeme to say something to suche as doe not diligently consider it when in very déede you say nothing to the ouerthrowe of any thing that I haue answered The Churche may be established without the magistrate touching true faith and the spirituall gouernment of it by Christe in the hearte and conscience of man How y t church may be established without a Magistrate but not touching the visible societie and the externall gouernment Upon this confusion also is that grounded whiche followeth that the Churche in the respect of Christ the head is a Monarchie c. For when I sayde that the state of the Churche was popular in the Apostles tyme I spake of the outward forme shewe and gouernment of it which therefore I call popular bycause the Churche it selfe that is the whole multitude had interest almost in euery thing especially whylest the Churche yet remained at Ierusalem I knowe that all these thrée kyndes of gouernmentes maye bée mixte together after dyuers sortes but yet the state of gouernment is named according to that whiche moste ruleth and beareth the greatest sway as when matters are moste commonly gouerned by the consent of the more parte of the people the state is called popular when by diuers of the best and wysest it is called optimorum status when by one it is called a Monarchie as in thys Realme in the Courte of Parliamente althoughe all the states be represented yet bycause the iudgemente confirmation and determination resteth in the Prince therefore the state is neyther Aristocratie nor Democratie but a Monarchie Euen so in the Apostles time especiallye as I haue sayde whylest the Churche remayned at Hierusalem thoughe they myghte be counted Optimates yet bycause moste thyngs in gouernmente were doone by the consente of the people therefore the state for that tyme was popular You saye that I shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauyng a Christian Magistrate and hauyng none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by the churches I haue shewed you before the reasons of it And nowe I adde this that for as muche as the Magistrate is the chiefe and principall Gouernoure of the Churches vnder Christe and oughte to haue a speciall care and regarde to and for the same It is not méete that anye thyng touching the gouernmente of the Churches or any publyke function perteyning therevnto shoulde bée otherwyse doone than he shall thynke conuenient and profitable for the present state of it And therefore well sayeth M. Musculus in his common places titu de verbi ministris Musculus It is not conueniente that those thinges whyche are publikely to bee doone or which concerne the people subiecte vnto them or to bee shorte are suche as concerne Religion and in that respecte perteyne vnto them excepte wee will saye with the fantasticall Anabaptistes that Christians may not bee Magistrates should be done without the consent and knowledge of the ciuile Magistrate And againe wherefore for the condition of tyme necessitie required that the Magistrates and Princes by the meanes of a fewe men which were of excellent iudgement and had a care that the Church of Christ should be prouided for might herevnto be induced that they might appoint faithfull and learned Pastours ouer their subiects And titulo de magistratibus speaking of the Ciuil magistrate he sayth Firste that he shoulde place ministers of Churches where they are wanting whether he chooseth them himselfe or confirmeth them whiche are chosen of others by his commaundement For it is not conuenient that any man should take vpon him anye publike offices in the Church without the authoritie of the publike magistrate But you will saye it was otherwise in the primitiue Churches in whiche the prelates of the Churches were chosen of the ministers and the people I answere Suche was then the state of the Churches that the ministers were not otherwise to be chosen bicause they had not a Christian magistrate if you call backe the manners of those tymes first call backe the conditions and state of them also The Prince hath to sée that all thyngs be doone in the Churche orderly and profitably and therfore hath he the altering and changing of suche elections Your offering of an hundreth differences betwene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace shall goe with that bragge whiche you vsed Fol. 22. where you offered twentie to one c. But to what purpose make you this offer the more differences there are betwéene them the more is my cause iustifyed But you will be bolde to shewe meehow that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God c. and I will also be as bolde to answere your reasons seuerally Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 1. In the tyme of persecution a churche chooseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in lyfe howesoeuer it be he is vnfit the Churches rounde aboute by their ministers or Elders admonishe this churche of her faulte and moue to correcte it the Churche will not by no meanes be admonished what can now the other churches doe in the tyme of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a harde matter and yet if they maye doe that there is all they can doe the euill is not remedied which may be easily taken away where there is a godly Magistrate and the Churche as is before sayd compelled to a better choyse So you see that there are * This is but one and yet none in deede for the case you put is verie vnlikely se the tyme you speake of inconueniences in the choosing of the Pastor and other the gouernours of the churche by the churche in the tyme of persecution which are not in the tyme of peace vnder a christian Magistrate Io. Whitgifte This is your only reason to proue that in a Churche persecuted it is méeter for the
Minister to be chosen without the consent of the Churche than in a Church béeing in prosperitie And surely it is euen lyke to your reasons in other matters for first that whiche you saye of the Churches rounde aboute for admonishing correcting or excommunicating that Churche that shall choose an vnméete minister is not to bée founde in all the Scripture either in commaundement or example and it is a méere deuise of your owne head Secondly it is moste vnlyke that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an vnméete or a wicked minister bycause those that be persecuted themselues be godly and well disposed and carefull to haue suche a one as they may safely committe themselues vnto For thoughe in the tyme of persecution there maye bée some hypocrites that will for a tyme ioyne themselues with the Godlie yet the moste parte doe of a conscience that whyche they doe else woulde they not endure persecution wherefore if euer the election of theyr minister may safely be committed vnto them it may then so be especially Lastely in the tyme of persecution they haue no Magistrate they be all equall neyther is one bounde to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hathe chiefe and speciall care ouer the rest as Magistrate to compell wherfore it can not be otherwyse then but that suche offices and functions should be chosen by a common consente neyther can there be therein in that tyme the halfe parte of inconuentences that are in the same in tyme of prosperitie as any man of any consideration may euidently perceyue Chap. 6. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Nowe I will shewe you * Where find you that I thinke so whiche thinke that the consent of the Churche in their minister can not stande with the time of a christian magistrate that it hath not onely stoode but hath bene confirmed in their tymes and by them In codice Iustiniani it is thus written following the doctrine of the holie Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed c. we ordeyne that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be boyd in any citie that voyces be gyuen of the inhabiters of that citie that he of thrce which for their right faith holynesse of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Bishoprike which is the most meete of them Also Carolus Magnus which was the first Germaine a He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator for Conradus his nephwe Otho did fyrst trāslate the empire from Fraunce to Germanie ▪ as some thynke Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum saith being not ignorant of the holy Canons that the holy Church in y e name of God should vse hir honoure the freelyer we assent vnto y e ecclesiasticall order that the Byshops be chosen by election of the Cleargie and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus his sonne decreed that he shoulde be Byshop of Rome whome all the people of Rome should consent to choose Io. Whitgifte Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choise of their minister cannot stande with the time of a Christian magistrate I haue said that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kind of electing ministers was conueniente now in thys state of the Churche it were pernitious and hurtfull whiche to be moste true the differences of the times before by me alleadged do proue The ciuill magistrate may committe this election to such as he liketh best and may vse that maner and kind of choise which he thinketh to be most conuenient for that Church whereof The proofes of T. C. improue his purpose he hath the chiefe care next vnto God And these proofes that you here bring in to iustify your cause in my opinion do quite ouerthrow the same For it appeareth to haue bin in the power of Emperours and ciuill magistrates to appoynte the maner and forme of suche elections why else shoulde they haue néeded to make any lawes or constitutions for that matter It is true that Musculus Lo. com tit de magistra speaking of the ciuill Magistrate sayth Prudenter autem magna c. But he muste wisely and verie Muscul. warilye order the election of ministers seeking nothyng else but that the flock of the Lorde might be prouided for He shall choose not only suche men as are holie but such as are also able to teach He shal flee simonie more than a dog or snake But he shal vse that maner of election which may be most profitable for the Churches And for somuche as hee is not able of himselfe to doe all things which perteine herevnto he shall vse the helpe and aide of faithfull men and of those that feare God vppon whose shoulders he may laye the care or burthen whether they bee within the order of the ministerie of the woorde or of an other profession but notwithstanding in suche sorte that he him selfe doe know them whiche are chosen and if they seeme meete do by his authoritie and power confirme them But to come to your authorities The words that you do alleadge in codice Iustiniani T. C. subtilly concealeth the words of his author that make agaynst hym must somewhere else be sought for I thinke your authoure Illiricus is deceyued in quoting that place for surely I cannot vnderstand that they are to be founde in that booke But from what authoure soeuer they come you haue subtillie left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you Wherefore I will recite them worde for word as they are reported in Illiricus the authoure out of whome you haue borowed them Sequentes igitur doctrinam c. Folowing the doctrine of the holy Apostles in that that most pure and vncorrupt Priests ought to be chosen which are appoynted for that cause chiefly that by their prayers they might obtayne the fauoure of the most mercifull God towardes common wealthes we do decree by this present constitution that as often as it shall happen the roome of any priest to be voyde the inhabitants of the same citie shall giue their voyces of three which in true faith holynesse of life and in all other good things are approued and allowed of that of these he whiche shall be moste meete might be chosen Byshop The Emperoure saith that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this that they prescribe what maner of men are to be chosen sci integerrimi incorruptissimi most pure and most vncorrupt not in the maner or kinde of electing as you would séeme to make the Reader beléeue in noting these words only folowing y e doctrine of the holy Apostles and leauing out that which foloweth declareth wherein he meant to folow their doctrine namely de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi in
that that they whiche are most pure ought to be chosen c. For else why dothe he adde and saye sancimus we haue decreed and not rather they haue decréed But the words that follow are most playne quoties sacerdotalem sedem c. as oft as it shall happen that the roome of a Priest shall be voyd the inhabitants of that citie shall giue their voices of three c. for where did the Apostles euer appoint that thrée should stand in the election or what example haue you of it in the whole scripture so that you sée héere no one prescript rule or example of the Apostles in all poynts folowed but that order to be taken and law made by the Emperoure whiche he thought for that state and time of the Church to be most conuenient In Nouellis he séemeth to declare what is meant by the inhabiters of that citie for Constitutio 123. thus it is written Sequentes igitur ea c. Folowing therefore those thinges whiche are decreed in the holy Canons wee make this pragmaticall lawe by the whyche we decree that as ofte as it shall be necessary to ordeyne a Byshop the Cleargie and primates of the citie for the whiche the Byshop is to be ordeyned shall assemble togyther and the Euangelies being layde before them shall agree and determine vppon three persons And euery one of them shall sweare by the holy word of God and that to be enrolled with their determination that they haue not chosen these men eyther for rewarde or for promise or for friendship or fauour or for any other affection but only bycause they know them to be of the true and catholike faith and of honest conuersation and that they are aboue fiue and thirtie yeares olde So that it is plaine that by the inhabitants of the citie he meaneth the Cleargie and the chiefe persons of the citie It followeth in the same constitution Vt ex tribus illis personis quae d cretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione iudicio eius qui ordinandi ius habet That of those three which are in this sort chosen the best may be ordeyned by the election and iudgement of him that hath the authoritie to ordeyne And this last clause may be an interpretation also of the meaning of that constitution ex codice that is that the inhabitants choose thrée of whome the Metropolitane should choose one to be Byshop for it is euident that the Metropolitane had ius ordinandi and that lawe in codice differeth not one whit from this constitution The words of Carolus Magnus make with me rather than against me for in that he saith secundùm statuta canonum de propria dioecesi according to the statutes of the Canons of that diocesse he plainly signifyeth that in sundry diocesse there be sundry kinds and maners of elections else would he haue said secundùm statuta canonum Apost according to the statutes of the canons of the Apostles or sacrae scripturae of the holy scripture or such like But that which followeth in the same law maketh the matter manifest Praecipimus etiam omnibus c. we will also and commaund all those which are subiect to our iurisdiction that no man attempt to spoyle the priuiledges of the Churches Monasteries or the Churches themselues c meaning no doubt touching elections That of Ludouike dist 63. declareth also that it was in the Emperoures power to alter the manner of elections or to establishe them for else to what purpose were these lawes and Confirmations made All this verifyeth my assertion and proueth playnely that the manner and forme of calling and electing Ministers is and hathe bene in the power of the ciuill Magistrate to order as shall be moste expedient for the present state of the Churche if the Prince thinke it conuenient that the people shoulde haue voyces in suche elections they maye so haue if not there is no lawe of God dothe bynde them to it and that doe all those lawes of Emperours manifestly proue Chap. 6. the eight Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 4. 5. Platina also in the lyfe of Pope Adrian the seconde writeth that Ludouike the second by his letters (a) An yntruth for he only com mendeth them for so doing he doth not commaund them to do o. commaunded the Romains that they should choose their owne bishop not loking for other mens voyces which being strangers could not so well tell what was done in the common weale where they were strangers and that it apperteyneth to the citizens The same Platina witnesseth in the lyfe of Pope Leo the. 8. that when the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperour Otho the fyrst that he would take away one Pope Iohn y t liued verie licentiously riotously place an other the same Emperor answered that it perteined to the clergie and people to choose one and willed them that they should choose and he would approue it and when they had chosen Leo and after put him out without cause and chose one Pope Bennet he compelled them to take Leo againe Wherby appeareth that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian and where the estate was moste of all Monarchicall that is subiecte to ones gouernmente and also when the Church put out any without good cause that then the Magistrates should compell the Churches to doe their dutie In deede the Bishop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperou his handes bycause of the lightnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I doe nothing else here but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Churche were vsed in the times of the Emperours and by their consentes And seyng that Otho confessed it perteyned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether hee tooke it at the Bishop his handes Io. Whitgifte You haue not truly reported the wordes of Platina in the first place for he sayth Platina falsifyed by T. C not that the Emperour Ludouike did commaund the Romains that they should choose their own Bishop but that he commended them for their godlie and sound choise His wordes be these Superuenere à Ludouico Imperatore literae quibus Romanos admodùm laudat quòd summum Platina in vita Adriani 2. Pontificem sanctè integrè creassent There came letters from Ludouike the Emperoure wherin he praiseth the Romans very muche bicause they had holily and syncerely created the high Priest c. But Platina declareth how tumultuous an election that was and howe iniuriously the Emperours Embassadors were secluded from the same hauing therin interest and although the Emperoure was contente to put vp that iniurie and to commend that election peraduenture for some worldly respect yet it is manifest that then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe vppon the authoritie of the Emperour and to seclude him from hauing any interest in their elections M. Bale Bale speaking of this election
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
a Pastor when there is any place void Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they find him meete he is confirmed of the Senate whiche standeth of some number of the people and by the moste parte of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the Minister by the people is lawfull and Apost like and confe sed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the Church and seruitude and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion Laste of all that he go h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may be that we should bring the Churche into bondage or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling and the people maye the willyngiyer submitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours or what cause to departe from the Apostolyke forme of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull I confesse I knowe not and woulde be gladde to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate and to saye that these things can not be hadde vnder hym as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme is o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely whiche in the time of perse ution some tymes are not so ordinarie withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor bu vrgeth it where it is not and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie And seeyng that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉 Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion and disordered states what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure whiche can hardly and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym And when as it is sayde that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister (a) Here you ar one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica forme we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them if the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the Church of choosing a more conuenient man So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people is but corrupte and so oughte not to be in the Churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken against and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof Io. Whitgifte Turpe est doctori c. you haue before tolde vs what Iustinian sayth (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice Also T. C. tripped in that wher he findeth fau with other of (b) Page 37. Sect. 3. an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention of the councell of (c) Page 37. Sect. 5. Carthage of (d) Ibidē sect ▪ 6 Toletane councell and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) Pag. 4 Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Gratiā say and wil that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seene c. yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret in what coūcel of Cartharge or of Toledo in what tome of Augustine or part of Gratiā in what centurie or booke of centuries which all require much more tyme to search out than this of Musculus especially your law which for any thing that I can perceiue asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani that I thinke it will neuer be founde there But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them without any further searche or tryall But to put you out of doubt this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme ministers were choosen by the people and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders And after that he hath shewed this manner of election to haue béene vsed t Cyprians tyme he addeth and sayth Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b ▪ ministris modum eligebantur c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers Byshoppes and Deacons elected the whyche forme also of electing Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes and that worthily for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Magistrates shoulde be done without their consent After this he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell saying but some peraduenture wi l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate not by any election of the people to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to answere for their sakes who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no bicause they were not elected ordeined according to the Apostolicall forme And hauing confessed those points y t you here set downe he maketh this resolutiō Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church thou must confesse that that which in it self is Apostolicall lawful vsuall conuenient for the libertie of the Churches primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse nostris vero non ita might wel profit the Church in the beginning but not so in our time For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās but that the minister without tumult might by cōmon consent be chosen which thing at this day were very hard to be done Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors nor so blinded
with false worshippings but they remained as yet in the doctrine Religion which they had receiued of the Apostles wherfore it might well be that a true minister might be chosen by their cōmon suffrages But after that the number of Christiās was encreased to an infinite multitude first schismes then generall ignorance blindnesse sundry kinds of superstitiō inuaded the Church c. there could no longer any true sincere minister be elected by the generall consent of the people c. wherefore for the conditiō of the time necessitie it self required that Princes Magistrates should commit this matter to certaine wise mē carefull for the Church by whose meanes meete pastors might be placed c. then he addeth that for the circumstāces of time as in all Churches the Apostolicall forme of electing ordeining cannot be restored ▪ so is there no cause why the minister of Christ being called to preach the Gospell by a godly Prince Magistrate shuld doubt of his calling whether it be right Christian or no. But he must remēber that where the state of the Church of Religiō is corrupt another way must be found out to remedie the same than that which was vsed in the Churches when all things was safe and sound In the end he declareth what maner of electing ordeining Ministers is vsed in y e church of Berne Neyther doth he in that place or any other that I knowe goe aboute to defende the election vsed in the Church where he was Minister by this that it approched vnto the election of the Primitiue Church as you report him to do Thus haue I truely reported Musculus his wordes in that place and his order than the whiche what can be more directly spoken to my purpose whiche is to proue that no one certaine maner and forme of electing Ministers is anywhere appointed to be generall and perpetuall but that the same may be altered accordyng to place tyme and persons and that the manner vsed in the Apostles time is not méete and conuenient for this time All this I saye Musculus hath plainely and by good reasons héere proued whyche he doth also as manifestly confirme in the title de Magistratibus For after that he hath declared that it perteineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers he sayth dices at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs in quibus à ministris plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum antistites respondeo talis tum ecclesiarum erat status c. as it is in my answere For the subiection and bondage of the Church which you so often talke of this is my answere in few words that subiection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful is no bondage to any but to such as thinke dutifull obedience to be seruitude bondage as the Anabaptistes do Why the people are debarred from electing which you call the Apostolicall forme of the choise of the Pastor you may learne by that which hath béen hetherto spoken if you be so desirous to learne as you would séeme to be That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulnesse of his calling though The minister may be assured of hys calling though he be not chosen by the people he be not called of the people you haue also hearde of Musculus who of purpose answereth that doubte He that is sure of an inwarde calling néede not to doubt of hys outward calling if it be according to the manner and forme of that Church wherein he is called That the people doe as willingly now submit them selues to their Pastors and gouernours though they haue no interest in electing of them as they did then experience teacheth in all places where there be good and vertuous pastors except onely in such as you and yours haue set on fire with contention and contempte You saye to assigne the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate c. We giue vnto the Magistrate that which of duetie belongeth vnto him in the respecte that he is a Christian Magistrate and hath the chiefe gouernment of the Church in all causes ouer all persons and you desirous of popularitie withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due vnto him giuing the same to the people and vulgar sort You counte it an abridging of the libertie of the Church a diminishing of the pastors assurance of his calling a withdrawing of the people from the pastor to be shorte a brynging of the people into bondage for the Magistrate to mainteine his right in vsing that kinde of appointing Ministers which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Churche committed vnto him and is not this to doe great iniurie to the office of the Magistrate Why doe you not plainely say that the Quéenes Maiestie abridgeth the libertie of the Church diminisheth the pastors assurance of his calling withdraweth the people from their pastor vrgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntarie bringeth them into bondage bicause she will not suffer them to haue fredome in the elections of their Bishops and Pastors for this is your plaine meaning But temper your popular and vndutifull speaches the true The true libertie of the Church libertie of the Church which is libertie of conscience and fredome from false doctrine errors and superstitions and not licence for euery man to doe what himselfe liweth was neuer more in any Church pastors neuer had better cause to be assured of their calling the people at no time more bound to cleaue to their pastors neuer lesse cause to complaine of vrging constraint seruitude or bondage than they haue at this daye vnder hir Maiestie but you go about to perswade them to the contrary which where vnto it tendeth would be in time considered Musculus saythe that this manner of ordering Ministers for he doth not call it T. C. transfei reth y t corruptions of mens myndes to the gouernment forced elections is a remedie against corrupted states not in respect of laws gouernment Magistrate or Religion by authoritie established but of menues myndes that are corrupted with errors contentions and sinister affections and this is no dishonor to the ciuill gouernor For if in a kingdome there be many wayward and disordered persons the fault is in themselues and not in the Magistrate nor in the kind of gouernment but a great commendation rather when as by the diligence of the Magistrate and profitable kinde of gouernment such disordered persons be corrected and reformed or at the least kept vnder and restrained Is it a dishonor to the Prince that where as she founde the whole Realme corrupted in doctrine now it is otherwyse though not in the heartes of many yet in externall forme and publike regiment Wherefore you do but subtilly I will not saye contemptuously transfer that to the Magistrate and kynd of gouernment which Musculus meaneth of the corrupt mindes and affections of the common sort of men You adde that when it is sayd that the
seuenth bookes of Eusebius where (b) An vntruth for there no such thing to be found in these bookes of ▪ usebius both the formes of the elections in those times are described and where besides that the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorth there are examples of the election of the people and Cleargie which were confirmed by the (c) This is vntrue for Eusebi ▪ us maketh not mention of confirmation of Elections by any Christian magistrate nor of any Byshop of Constantinople ▪ Christian magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to know that besides the institution of God in his worde this manner of electing did continue so long as there was any sight of the knowledge of God in the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Illiricus his treatise that you speake of doth nothing preiudice the cause that I haue in hand touching the authorities there alleadged for the question is not whether it hath bin so or no but whether it be conuenient and profitable for the Church to haue it so now The reasons that Illiricus vseth beside his authorities are of no great force to proue either necessitie or conueniencie of such elections in this Church as the state is now You do well to confesse the help that you had by Illiricus for it could not haue bin The reply of T. C. consisteth of other mens collections vnespyed séeing you haue almost verbatìm drawen all the authorities and reasons that you vse in this cause out of him And truly I maruell with what face you can so opprobriously obiect vnto me other mens collections and lacke of reading the ancient writers when as it is euident that your whole booke consisteth of other mens notes and collections and that you your selfe haue scarce read any one of the Authours that you haue alledged 18. authorities at the least you haue borrowed of Illiricus in this cause besides certayne other reasons You referre the reader to the. 6. 7. booke of Eusebius where you say both the formes of elections in those tunes are described and the customes of the peoples choise set foorth and diuers examples of the elections of the people and Cleargie c. But the reader shoulde haue bene something beholding to you if you had named the Chapters as well as you haue done the bookes Howebeit you do very politikely to referre youre readers to the whole bookes which you are sure the most of them cannot and of those that can many will T. C. sendeth his reader to Eusebius for that which he shall not find in him Euse. lib. 6. cap. 10. not peruse but you haue not dealt faithfully for it is not to be founde in any parte of these two bookes where the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorthe or any example of the people and Cleargies election confirmed by the Christian Magistrate Nor yet any example of any Byshop of Constantinople The contrary rather may be collected in sundrye places In the sixte Booke Eusebius declareth that in the absence of Narcissus bycause it was not knowne where he was The gouernoures of the Churches adioyning ordeyne another Byshop And after Narcissus retourne bycause he was aged the story saith dictum Alexandrum alterius paroeciae c. That the ordinance of God called the said Alexander being Byshop of another parish to vndertake that charge with Narcissus according to a vision which was in the night reuealed vnto him And in y e next chapter he sheweth how that those of Hierusalem receyued the said Byshop courteously and would not suffer him to retourne to the place where he was Byshop before they being admonished by a vision in the night which signifyed vnto them that they should go out of the citie gates and receiue their Bishop appoynted vnto them by God which thing they also did by the consent vicinorum Episcoporum of the Byshops adioyning What for me or manner of electing can you gather of this place except you will admitte visions and call them from one Byshopricke to another to helpe some that is growen in age Neyther is here any mention made of the electiō of the people for this that he saith Hierosolomitani went out c. it may rather be vnderstanded of the ministers and deacons of Hierusalem than of the people In the. 7. booke cap. 30. it appeareth that the ministers and Pastors had then authorite to choose Byshops Only in the. 6. booke ther is one example that may séeme something to make for your purpose vntill it be well considered It is of one Fabianus who was chosen Byshop of Rome as it is there reported in this manner cum fratres omnes Lib. 6. cap. 29. ad ordinandum futurum Episcopum in ecclesia congregati essent c. The reporte goeth when as all the brethren were assembled togyther in the Church to choose him which should be Byshop and many of them determined of diuers worthy and notable men Fabianus hymselfe being present with the rest and no man minding to choose him that a doue falling from aboue like as the holy ghost discended vpon our sauioure in likenesse of a doue did lighte vpon his head and so the whole people being with one spirite much moued did togyther with great ioy and with one consent proclayme him woorthy to be Byshop and immediatly tooke him and placed him in the Byshops seate Héere we may learne that Fabianus was miraculously chosen to his Bishopricke and that the people moued with this miracle did burst out into commendation of him and thought him worthy to be Bishop dothe it therefore follow that they elected him for it may be doubted whether those brethren that came togyther to ordeyne the Byshop were of the Cleargy or of the people It is not denied but at this time the people did sometimes and in some places gyue their consents in the electing of their Byshop yet doth not this example proue it béeing as it may appeare extraordinarie neither is there in these two bookes any forme of such elections described nor any customes of the peoples choice set foorth much lesse any examples of the elections of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the Christian Magistrate as you affirme And surely I maruell what you meane to speake of any suche confirmation by the Christian magistrate séeing it is manifest that as yet there was no Christian Magistrate mentioned by Eusebius except only one Philip Emperoure of Rome of whome he speaketh very little and maketh no mention of any elections made in his time so farre off is he from expressing examples of any confirmation of such electiōs by any christiā magistrate Namely you say in the Byshop of Cōstātinople A grosse oueright of T. C. yet ther is no such example in either of those bookes no not so
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
certayne forme prescribed The end of the Apostles in ecclesiasticall pollicie must be regar ded and not their deedes Ibidem of electing ministers and that the dooings of the Apostles in that matter are not at all tymes of necessitie to be folowed but it is sufficient to respect their ende and purpose that is that there be méete ministers and therfore M. Beza sayth No man may here prescribe any certayn rule but if the conscience be good it is an easy matter to determine what is moste expedient for tyme place and other circumstances Chap. 8. the second Diuision 2 Touching the seconde that is for the diuersities of elections afterwarde vsed in That the people were not always admitted to the election of ministers Eusebius Zuinglius Cyp ian Concil Ancy Antiochen Laodicen Can. Apost 1. the Churche and that the people were not alwayes admitted to the same I referre you to that whiche hath ben spoken before out of Eusebius and Zuinglius of the Apostles appoynting of Iames to bée Bishoppe of Hierusalem of Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 4. where he plainly confesseth that electing by the people was not then generall in that he sayeth Et fe è per prouincias vniuersas tenetur and dothe the contrary himselfe in choosing one Aurelius without the consent of the people Lib. 2. Epist 5. Lykewise of the 18. Can. of the Councell of Ancyrane 18. Canon of the Councell of Antioche 12. and 13. Can. Con. Lao diceni All which Canons and Councels I haue alleadged before In the fyrste of the Canons attributed to the Apostles it is decréed that a Bishoppe shoulde be ordeyned of two or thrée Bishoppes and the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the seconde of the same Canons the ordeinyng of Priestes Deacons and other clearks is cōmitted to the Bishop alone the gréeke word there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Can. 2. lykewise In the. 35. or 36. of the same Canons it plainly appeareth that Bishops were chosen Can. 35. 36. without the consent of the people In the. 4. Canon of the Councell of Nice the election of Bishops is appoynted only Cōcil Nicanū Can. 4 Antioch 19. to Bishops It appeareth plainly in the. 19. ca. Con. Anti cheni that only the Metropolitane and other ministers had interest in the ordeinnig and apointing of Byshops It is manyfest by Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 8. and 23. that Origen was admitted and ordeined Eus. li. 6. ca. 8. 23. Hieronymus Epist. ad Nepotian Distinct. 62. Nulla minister only by Bishops Hierome in his Epistle ad Nepotianum in the wordes before recited signifyeth that the election of Priestes doth p rteyne to the Bishop Gratian distinct 62. hath this Canon made by Leo who was Bishop of Rome Nulla ratio s it c. No reason permitteth that they should be accompted amōgst the Bishops which are neither chosen of the Clearks nor desired of the people nor consecrated of the Bishops of that prouince with the iudgement and allowance of the Metropolitane The Glosse expounding what this is to be desired of the people saythe that it is to giue testimonie vnto them And no man denieth but that suche as are to be admitted into the ministerie ought to haue a testimonie of their lyfe conuersation and that it should be lawfull for any man to except againste them if there be iuste cause but yet the iudgement not to rest in the people And distinct 6 there is this lawe Laici nullo modo se debent in s rere electioni The laye Distinct. 63. Laici people ought by no meanes to thruste themselues into the election or to meddle with the election There are certain Canons collected out of the gréek Synodes by Martin Bracaren Episco and they are to be founde to Conci 2. the firste of the Canons is this the Tom. 2. Con. whiche Gratian also hath distinct 63. Non licet populo c. It is not lawfull for the people to make the election of them which are preferred to priesthoode but it is in the iudgement of the Bishops that they should proue him which is to be ordeined whether he bee instructed in the word and in faith and in spirituall conuersation The same may be also proued by the 2. and. 3. Canons folowing In the same distinc there is this Canon taken oute of the. 8. generall Councell Consecrationes promotiones c. This holie and generall Councell agreeyng with former Councels hath decreed and enacted that the consecrations and promotions of Bishops should be made by the election of the Cleargie and by the decree and Colledge of the Bishops Theodoret lib. 4. cap. 5. sayth that when Auxentius béeing an Arian was depriued Theod. lib. 4. cap. of the Bishoprike of Millain Valentinian the Emperour called together the Bishops and willed them to place such a one in that bishoprike as he might safely commit himself vnto c. and when as they desyred the Emperour that he himself would choose one whome hée thought méete the Emperour tolde them agayne that it were much better for them to elect one bycause they were best able to iudge of his metenesse And although the people béeing diuided tumultuously requested the Bishops some for one some for an other and at the length all desired to haue Ambrose yet it maye euidently appeare that the interest of the election was in the Bishops and the confirmation and allowyng of the same in the Emperoure And in that the Bishoppes woulde haue committed the whole matter to the Emperour it may appeare that it greatly skilleth not who doo choose so that suche be chosen as be fit for the place In the. 63. distinct of Gratian it is also to be séene that sometyme the election Distinct. 6 and allowing of Bishops was wholly giuen to the Emperour as we may reade in the decrée of Adrian the Pope there mentioned and in the decrée of Leo the first where he sheweth howe that the dissentions heresies and schismes that were in the Churche was the cause why that both the election of the Romain Bishop and of other also was committed to the Emperour Whereby it is euident thal the people haue not at all tymes nor in all places had interest in the elections of ministers I knowe that Gratian in the same distinction sayth as muche in the behalfe of the people but therby we maye gather that this election hath bene variable and from tyme to tyme vsed according to the place tyme and persons For further proofe hereof I coulde recite the varietie that nowe is and heretofore also hath bene euen in reformed Churches but to auoyd tediousnesse I referre that to euery mans owne searche This is moste certaine that the forme prescribed in the second Admonition and in this Replie of T. C. also if it be considered will appeare to haue in it nihil Apostolicum nothing Apostolicall but to differ as muche from any forme that was then vsed as
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
theyr reason is farre from good reason so are your similitudes farre from prouing the same the Logitians say Soluitur sunilitudo ostensa dissimilitudine First ther is great difference betwixte the office of an Apostle and the office of a Pastor as you must néedes confesse Then is there also difference in the number for the Apostles whiche were chosen of Christe to be witnesses of his Resurrection were twelue and therfore the number certain but the number of Preachers and Pastors is not limited but the mo the better Thirdly there was one chosen in the place of Iudas that the Scripture might be fulfilled as Peter saith Act. 1. but there is no such thing in the election of Pastors other ministers Moreouer it was the twelfth place in number that Mathias was chosen vnto and not any locall place such as pastors take charge of Wherfore except you can make a certayn number and no certain number a local prescript and definite cure and a generall charge without prescription of any certain place all one or at the least verie like this argument Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas ergo no man muste bee admitted into the ministerie excepte he haue a Cure muste of necessitie be a very childishe and fonde argument And how ofte shall I tell you that to reason à facto ad ius of an example to make a generall rule is a very vnskilfull kinde of rasoning excepte there be some generall rule and commaundement according to that example But was not Paule added to the number of the Apostles though there were no Some admitted to the ministerie a place beeing not voyde place voyde Were not also Barnabas Act. 14. Epaphroditus Phil. 2. Andronicus and Iunia Rom. 16. called Apostles I might therefore as wel reason thus Paule Barnabas c. were called to be Apostles when there was no place voyde Ergo some maye be called to the preaching of the Gospell though they haue no certayne cure But let vs sée how you will iustifie this assertion that there are no ordinarie ministers ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation c. For I vtterly denie it in that sense that you speake it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 5. And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe onely remayne whiche are appoynted to one certayne place and that the Reader maye haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function maye be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie whiche are perpetuall Of the firste sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes whiche the Lorde vsed for a time as it were for chiefe Masons and principall buylders of his Churche as well to laye the foundations of Churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to suche forwardnesse and height vntill there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fitte pastors Elders and Deacons And that beeing done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceyued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are founde in the Epistles of S. Paule And therfore also when the Churches haue bin by Antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hath stirred vp Euangelists euen immediatly by his spirite without any calling of men to restore his Churches agayne of whiche sorte was Master Wickli e in our Countrey M. Hus and Hierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and Zuinglius in Germanie c. And after this sort God may at his good pleasure work when he purposeth to set in his Gospell in any nation where the whole face of the earth is couered with the darknesse of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God Io. Whitgifte Althoughe you can not warrant by the Scriptures this distinction of ordinarie and In what respect the Apostolical function was extraordinary extraordinarie ecclesiasticall functions yet I thinke the Apostolicall function was extraordinarie in respect that it had for the time certayne especiall properties as to beare witnesse of the resurrection of Christ and of his assention whiche they dyd sée with their eyes also to plant to found Churches Likewise to go throughout the whole worlde These I say were temporall and extraordinarie and so was the Apostleship in this respect but yet ordinarie in respect of their chiefe function which was to preache the Gospell and to gouerne the Churches whiche they had planted Likewise Euangelistes haue an ordinarie function neyther is there any cause why it should be called a temporall office but onely in respect of writing the Gospell for there is none that thinketh the office of preaching to be eyther extraordinarie or temporall But I pray you let me aske you one question why should not the office of Seniors be aswell extraordinarie and temporall as the office of an Apostle or an Euangelist for as you saye that the Apostleship and Euangelistship remayned vntil there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fytte Pastors c. So say I that the office of Seniors and Elders might remayne in the Churche vntill there were christian Princes and Magistrates by whome the people of God might be kepte in peace and quietnesse and the Churches of Christ more perfectly gouerned And wel assured I am that there are as good reasons for this as there are for the other For as in the place of the Apostles Euangelistes c. are succéeded Bishops Pastors Doctors so I may say that in the place of Elders and Seniors are come Christian Princes and Magistrates As for this parte of the Apostles function to visite suche Churches as were before planted and to prouide that suche were placed in them as were vertuous and godly Pastors I knowe it remayneth still and is one of the chiefe partes of What part of the Apostles function remayneth the Bishops function as shall hereafter more at large appeare I graunte that Master Hus Hierome of Prage c. were stirred vp euen by God to preache his truthe and open the doore of his worde agayne yet were they called to some function of the Churche before althoughe that function were for the moste parte wicked and the Church almost wholly corrupted with superstition and errors But why you shoulde rather call them Euangelistes than Apostles Prophetes Pastors or Doctors I knowe not especially séeing some of them had ordinarie charges Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 1. Of this sorte of extraordinarie functions are the Prophets also which besides a singular dexteritie and readinesse of expounding the Scriptures had also the gifte of telling things to come whiche bicause it is not nowe ordinarily I thinke there is none will denie but it is an extraordinarie calling for the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion giuen
by M. Doctor that they are but for a time Io. Whitgifte If you meane Prophetes in the respecte of the gifte of telling thinges to come Act. 11. suche as Agabus was then be they temporall but yet ordinarie for the tyme wherin Prophetes in some respecte ordinary they were But if you meane Prophets in respecte of their dexteritie and readinesse in expounding the Scriptures suche as Barnabas was and Simon Lucius Act. 13. c. and Saule Likewyse suche as Iudas and Silas Actes 15. and suche as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paule speaketh of 1. Corinth 14. I sée no cause why eyther the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary or the â—ffice and gifte temporall excepte you haue a libertie to make temporall and perpetuall ordinarie and extraordinarie what you please But seeing you woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture I pray you proue this that you haue sayde eyther of the Aposâ—les Euangelisâ—s or Prophetes by the Scripture séeing you teache that of them which seemeth to be contrary vnto the Scripture Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinarie and continuall functions of the Churche are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole Churche as are those which are called Elders or they which take charge of one parte of the Churche whiche is the poore of euery Churche as are those which are called Deacons Those agayne that be called Presbyteri which we tearme Elders of the Churche and haue to doe with the whole Churche are eyther those whiche teache and preache the worde of God and gouerne too or else whiche gouerne onely and do not teache or preache Of the first kinde are Pastors and Doctors Or the second are those which are called by the common name of Elders or auncientes Of all this ordinarie function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayde before that they are no vncertayne and vndefinite ministeries but suche as are limitted vnto a certayne Churche and congregation And first of all for the Pastor or Bishop whiche is heere mentioned whiche name soéuer we consider of them they doe foorthwith assoone as they are once eyther spoken or thought of imply and inferre a certayne and definite châ—rge beeing as the Logitians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnlesse he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watcheman vnlesse he haue some citie to looke vnto Or howe can a man be a master vnlesse he haue a seruaunt or a father vnlesse he haue a childe Nowe if you will saye that they haue a charge and they haue flocks and cities to attende and watche vpon for a whole shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their Cities and their charges Io. Whitgifte This diuision also is of your owne inuenting neyther haue you any mention of Seniors as you call them or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi whiche you would haue to be so perfecte a rulè of ecclesiasticall functions As for Pastors and Doctors you knowe that diuers bothe auncient and late writers as namely Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and Bucer c. do confounde them and the reason that Hieroine vseth can not be well denyed because the Apostle sayth not as he dyd before of the other alios Pastores alios Doctores some Pastors Eph. 4. and other some Doctors but he ioyneth them togither and sayth alios Pastores Doctores some Pastors and Doctors M reouer I sée not howe you can iustifie your diuision of Seniors by the worde of God as I shall further declare in that place where Tract 17. you more largely speake of them In the meane time I sée no reason why your vnpreaching and vnministring Seniors shoulde haue any perpetuitie in the Churche more than Apostles for the cause that I haue before alleadged neyther haue you yet proued that the Deacons office is onely to prouide for the poore you haue examples to the contrarie as I haue declared in my Answere To be shorte I vnderstande not howe you can make Doctors gouernours of any seuerall parishes and Churches except you will make them Pastors But bicause you onely speake héere and proue nothing I will differre a further answere vnti l I heare more sounde argumentes You saye a shepheard can not be vnlesse he haue a flocke c. all which is true but he is also a shepheard that hath mo flockes and he is a shepheard that hathe a generall care and ouersight of many shepheards and many flockes For he that hathe many flockes and many shepheards may haue one master shepheard to sée that all the rest doe their duties and that the shéepe be kepte in good order And thoughe euery seuerall Citie haue seuerall watchemen whiche watche by course yet maye there be one that hathe an especiall care ouer all and is appoynted to see the rest do their duties So one master maye haue many seruauntes one father many children Wherefore if you vse this reason to improue the office of a Bishop it lacketh mighte if to proue that a Pastour muste haue a flocke no man dothe denie it but if to conclude that no man maye preache vnlesse he haue a certayne flocke there is no sequele at all in it for first you muste proue that the onely office of a Pastor is nowe remayning in the Churche and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments except he be a Pastor of some certayne flocke for that doe I constantly denie Chapter 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3. First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to eade in all Churches but arrie till they be hyred in one And therfore when the Bishop hath layde his hande of Petitio principij them â–ª they are no more Ministers than before his hande came vpon them bicause they haue no charges and therefore the patrone or person that hireth them to reade and setteth them a worke are their Bishops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the Diocesse Io. Whitgifte These be but words grounded vpon this false principle that none oug te to be admitted into the ministerie but suche as haue a certayne cure and charge which you are neuer able to proue eyther by Scripture or good reason but the contrarie is manyfest by bothe Chapter 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole Diocesse or Prouince or Realme to be their flocke or Citie to attende vpon is contrarie to the pollicie or good husbandrie of all those that woulde eyther haue their Citie safe or their flockes sounde For who are they whyche woulde appoynte one for the watche of a thousande townes or cities when as all they whiche loue their safetie woulde rather haue for euery citie many watchemen
muste learne that there bee not onely Pastors in the Churche but also Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Doctors Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. who all are called ministers and haue their place in the Churche of Christe as it shall be proued if you denie it T. C. Pag. 45. Sect. 1. This passeth all the diuinitie that euer I redde that there are nowe Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruels if you proue that as you saye you wil if any denie it I denye it proue you it Io. Whitgifte Apostles Then haue you not redde muche diuinitie for if it be true that the Apostle Saincte Paule in the fourth to the Ephesians dothe make a perfecte platforme of a Churche and a full rehersall of the offices therein conteyned as you say he dothe then can I not vnderstande howe you can make those offices rather temporall than the office of the Pastors and Doctors And forasmuche as you so greatly contemne authoritie and woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture lette mée heare one worde of the same that dothe but insinuate these offices to be temporall The place it selfe séemeth to importe a continuance of these functions vntill the comming of Ephes. 4. Christe For he sayeth He therfore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophetes and some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Teachers for the gatheryng together of the Sainctes for the woorke of the ministerie c. vntill wee all meete together in the vnitie of faithe and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfecte man and vnto the measure of the age and fulnesse of Christe c. I am perswaded that you can not shew any lyke place whiche dothe so playnely importe the abrogatyng of them as thys 1. Cor. 12. 14. dothe make for their continuaunce I haue besyde that place to the Ephesians the twelfth of the firste to the Corinth and the. 14. where he speaketh of Prophets as of perpetuall ministers in the Churche of Christe I knowe that there were certayne thynges in the Apostles whiche were proper vnto themselues as theyr callyng whyche was immediatly from God their commission to goe into the whole worlde the power of woorkyng miracles to bée witnesses of the Resurrection and of the Ascention c. but to preache the woorde of God in places where néede requireth though the same be not peculiarly committed to them or to gouerne Churches alreadie planted I sée no cause why it shoulde not be perpetuall Euangelists Lykewise the office of the Euangelist if it be taken for the writing of the gospell then it is ceased But if it be taken for preaching to the people playnely and simply as (a) Bull. in 4. ad Ephes. Bullinger thinketh or generally for preaching the gospell as (b) Musc. Tit. de ver minist in locis com Musculus supposeth in whiche sense also Paule sayde to Timothie 2. Timo. 4. doo the worke of an Euangelist Or for preaching more feruently and zealously than other as (c) Bucer in 4. Ephes. Bucer sayeth then I see no cause at all why it may not still remaine in the Church Moreouer Prophetes if they be taken for suche as haue the gifte of foreshewyng things to come then be they not in all tymes of the Churche but if they be Prophets 1. Cor. 14. suche as Saincte Paule speaketh of 1. Corin. 14. such I saye as haue an especiall gyfte in interpretyng the Scriptures whether it bée in expoundyng the mysteries thereof to the learned or in declaryng the true sense thereof to the people I vnderstande not why it is not as perpetuall as the Pastor or Doctor Thus you sée that I haue bothe Scripture and reason on my syde and to the ende you maye perceyue that I am not destitute of the consent also of learned Ambrose men in thys matter I will sette downe the opinions of one or two Ambrose vpon these wordes Ad Ephes. 4. Et ipse dedit quosdam quidem Apostolos c. sayeth thus The Apostles are Bishops Prophets be interpreters of the Scriptures althoughe in the beginning there were Prophetes as Agabus and the foure Virgins Prophetesses as it is in the Actes of the Apostles c. yet nowe interpreters bee called Prophets Euangelistes bee Bucerin 4. Ephe. Deacons as Philip for althoughe they bee no Priestes yet maye they preache the Gospell without a chaire as both Stephanus and Philippe before named Bucer vppon the Fol. 42. sect vlt. same place sayth that there bée Euangelistes nowe and you your selfe fol. 42. confesse that Hus Ierome of Prage Luther Zuinglius c. were Euangelistes Peter Martyr in his P. Martyr Commentaries vpon the. 12. to the Romaines sayth that the Apostle there describeth those functions and giftes whyche are at all tymes necessarie for the Churche And in that place the Apostle mentioneth Prophecying M. Caluine in his Institut Caluine cap. 8. doth confesse that God hath stirred vp Apostles or Euangelistes since that tyme of the Primitiue Churche and that hee hathe doone so lykewyse euen nowe in thys tyme. M. Bullinger vpon the place of the fourth to the Ephe. sayeth that the woordes Bullinger bee confounded and that an Apostle is also called a Prophete a Doctor an Euangeliste a minister and a Bishoppe and a Bishoppe an Euangeliste and a Prophete c. To bée shorte it is thus written in the Confession of the Churches in Heluetia Confess Heluetica The ministers of the newe Testament bee called by sundrie names for they are called Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Byshoppes c. And speakyng of Prophetes it sayeth The Prophetes in tyme paste foreseeyng thynges to come were called Seers who were expounders of the Scriptures also as some bee euen nowe a dayes Euangelistes were wryters of the historie of the Gospell and Preachers also of the gladde tydings of Christe his Gospell As Paule bidde Timothie doe the woorke of an Euangeliste c. So that to saye that there is in the Churche Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes in suche sense as I haue declared is no straunge diuinitie to suche as bée diuines in déede But let vs heare your reasons Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 45. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And that you maye haue some thyng to doe more than peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these woordes I will shewe my reasons why I thinke there oughte to be none nor can be none vnlesse they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of this worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God beeing sente of God but to the Embassador of any Prince or noble man or that is sente of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the Scripture by the trope of Synecdoche for the twelue that our Sauior Christ appointed to go thoroughout all the worlde to preache the Gospell vnto the which number was added Saint Paule and
flocke than at other places I answere that the Euangelists and Apostles did carrie longer in one place than in another and taught some congregations yeares whē they did not othersome moneths And therfore they say nothing which alleadge for the nonresidence of Pastors that S. Paule called Timothie and Titus from Ephesus and Crete for first they were Euangelists and no Pastors then they went not of their owne heads but called of the Apostle which was a chiefe gouernoure of the Church And thirdly they went not but hauing other sufficient put in their place as it appeareth in their seuerell epistles so that if that place make any thing it maketh not to proue the non residencie but rather whether a minister may be translated from one Church to another Io. Whitgifte Your reader if he iudge indifferently cannot but acknowledge this that you so cōfidently speake of proores to be but a vaine bragge and nothing so There is no man that denieth but that a Pastor ought so to attend vpō his slocke How a Pastor ought to be rendent as he may be well able to do his duetie towards the same and with a good conscience answer his doings before the chiefe Pastor to whome he shall giue his accompte In the meane time if he be godly if he preach among them as often as he is perswaded to be conuenient if he haue a care ouer them that they be not destitute of that whiche is necessarie if he haue such as are honest learned and diligent to supply his absence he may be bolde to say to his vnlawfull iudges tu quis es qui iudicas alienum seruum proprio Rom. 14. domino stat aut cadit VVho art thou which condemnest another mans seruant he standeth or falleth to his owne Master ▪ Whether a Pastor hauing a flocke may also preach out of his owne charge is another question And although it be by you denyed yet bycause your words without proofe weigh not much I will for the auoiding of confusion speake nothing thereof in this place but this only that as the opinion is strange so is it most vntrue and not to be iustifyed eyther by Scripture aunciente fathers or reasons But oh T C. who séeth not the mark you shoote at who perceyueth not how you Why T. C. slideth from the matter to the person slide from the matter to the person To what ende do you here recite a mastership of a colledge a Deanrie ▪ a Prebend but that your meaning is to note some one particular man whome bycause he hath withstoode your erroneous and contentious doctrine hath not exalted you as it is wel knowne you haue desired hath executed those lawes vpon you whiche for the auoyding of manifest and wilfull periurie you oughte to The oth of the fellowes of Tri. Col. in Cam. haue executed of your selfe you séeke by all meanes possible to deface Is this conscience ▪ Is this praebe e te beneuolum magistro non solùm dum in eo vixeris sed etiam postea pro virill c. The Lord forgiue you and giue you grace to know your selfe If he that hath this mastership Deanry Prebend benefice neglect his duetie in any one of them if he do not that that both Gods lawes and mans lawes require of him if be be a loyterer if he séeke his ease if he be not able to giue an accompt of his doings when he shall therevnto be called then let him susteyne both the shame and the blame also The Pastor is not so tyed to any place that he may not from the same be bodily The Pastor may be absent vpon occasion absent vpon occastō as I am ready to proue by sufficient both reason and authoritie when I shall be vrged there vnto The examples of the Euangelists and of the Apostles do verifie the same for they fully instructed the churches wherein they preached in all things necessary to saluation though they did not cōtinually remayne with them but now and then visit them And therefore the Pastors may so do in like manner Touching Timothie and Titus whome you so oft without any kind of proofe denie Timothie being a Pastor was absent frō Ephesus to be Pastors I haue spoken else where at large notwithstanding bycause your too too bolde asseuerations may appeare what they are I will in a few words euen in this place declare bothe that Timothie and Titus were Pastors and that their examples do euidently proue that a Pastor may be vpon occasions absent from hys flocke And for this time I will be content with that only that M. Caluine writeth touching In y e treatise of Archbyshops c. the same matter referring the reader for further proofe to that that I haue in more ample manner written of the same M. Caluine 1. Ti. 1. doth call Timothie Pastor of the Church of Ephesus And in the. 1. Ti. 4. expounding these words ne donum quod Tract 8. Caluine in te est c. he saith that the holy ghost had by oracle appointed Timothie to be receyued into the order of Pastors And. 2. Ti. 4. that he did excell vulgare and common Pastors meaning that he was an excellent Pastor endued with more singular and notable gifts and of greater authoritie than the common sort of Pastors be And in the same Chapter speaking of Paules sending for Timothie from Ephesus to Rome he sayth that there was no small cause why Paule sent for Timothie from that Churche whiche he ruled and gouerned and that so farre off heereby we may gather saith he how profitable conference is with such men for it might be profitable to all Churches whiche Timothie might learne in a small time so that the absence of halfe a yeare or of one whole yeare is nothing in comparison of the commoditie that commeth thereby Whereby it is manifest that Caluine both tooke him to be a Pastor and also excuseth his absence So that the example of Timothie maketh much for the pnrpose The like may be said of Titus and of sundry other in the scriptures Now if the Apostle being a chiefe gouernoure of the Church might call Timothie and Titus so farre from their cures and that for no great nor yet common matters of the Churche but for his owne priuate businesse as it appeareth 2. Tim. 4. then I trust you will also thinke it lawfull that suche as be rulers and gouernours of the Church may do the like There is no man that writeth so exactly of Non residence but Lawfull causes of the pastors absence he confesseth certaine necessary causes of absence as if it be for the commoditie of the Church whereof he is Pastor or for the commoditie of the whole church of that kingdome or for the commoditie of other particular churches in the same or for necessitie or vpon commaundement of higher authoritie in all these and such like cases the absence of a Pastor is lawfull and
Coemeteria or Churcheyardes if you meane those places that lye next round about the Churches as they came in with the Monke they mighte well haue gone out with him for any profite eyther to the Churche or common wealth by them But if you meane as the Greke worde whiche is there vsed signifieth a fitte place where the bodies of men sleepe and are buri attending the tyme of their rising vp agayne in the iaste and generall daye of iudgement then these Churcheyardes were in the tyme of the Lawe and in the primitiue Churche in all times when there was any outwarde pollicie of the Churche and especially when the Churche had quietnesse and peace that it mighte without daunger * bury their dead in some certayne conuenient Luke 7. place therevnto appoynted whiche was for feare of the infection commonly as it maye Euseb. 7. be gathered in the fielde out of the Towne vnto the whiche vse and custome if it mighte be done lib. 13. cōuemently it were wel that we were restored both because it is more safe for the preseruation of the Townes and Cities in their health as also for that through the superstition which hath beene of beeing buried rather in the Churche than in the Churcheyarde in the Chauncell rather than in the Churche nearer the highe altar than further of the remnauntes whereof are in a greate number of mens heartes yet whiche mighte muche be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the dead in some honest place out of the towne thereto appoynted Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you my Author and if you will not credite one witnesse you shall That Denis deuided parishes haue moe Denis himselfe dothe testifie it in an Epistle that he writte to Seuerus a Bishop Damasus sayth the same so dothe Marianus Scotus Platina and others Polidor Uirgill dothe something playnely open the matter in these wordes Pol. Virg. lib. 4. c. 9. de inuent Circiter annum Domini 267. Dionisius tam presbyteris vrbis Romae quà m aliarum gentium templa coemiteria parochias quas dicunt diuisit Praeterea Episcopis dioecaeses distribuit mandauitque vt vnusquisque suis finibus ac limitibus contentus esset Parochias vt hoc demonstremus nostri appellant singula templa Dioecesis eorum territorium certis terminis distinctum c. About the. 267. yere of our Lorde Dionisius deuyded Churches Churcheyardes and Parishes as they call them aswell to the Priestes of Rome as of other nations furthermore he distributed Diocesse vnto Bishops and commaunded that euery one should content himselfe with his owne boūdes and limites our men call Parishes that we may make this playne the seuerall Churches of a Diocesse and their territorie limitted within certayne boūdes c. Wherefore take héede least you cast dust in your owne eyes blind your selfe for this of Denis is not denied of any that I can reade Where hath the Lord deuided nationall Churches into parishes and congregations Why doe you not note the place or where hath S. Paule the thing thoughe not the worde or name or what stories saye that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken to be the same that we call nowe a parishe Héere is muche spoken but nothing proued This Denis was Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lorde 263. whiche peraduenture How parishes are by man distinguished you haue not considered But to put all this matter out of doubte and to open that the ignoraunce whereof maketh you so hotte in this matter there was diuerse congregations and Churches in the Apostles time but yet was there not any limitation of place or certayne compasse of grounde certaynely appoynted for that was lefte to the discretion of man to enlarge or to contracte as it should be thought from time to time moste conuenient and who can once imagine or suppose that Christ or his Apostles did appoynt the limittes of Diocesse or Parishes or who knoweth it not that it is in the power of suche as haue authoritie to enlarge or diminishe Dioces or Parishes as they shall sée it expedient I knowe nothing to the contrarie but that the Parishe whose bondes and limits be but one myle compasse maye be made ten myle compasse and contrarywise It is well sayde of one that distributio gregis nunc extenditur nunc coarctatur pro hominis arbitrio The distribution of a flocke is sometime enlarged and sometyme made lesse according to the iudgement of man And this matter néedeth not to séeme so straunge vnto you for if you had bin so diligent a reader of the booke of Actes and Monumentes as you boast your selfe to be then mighte you haue read there that the Councell of Nice dyd appoynt to certayne Bishops the limittes and boundes of their Prouinces and Dioces But what should I labour in a matter so manyfest If by Coemiteria or Churcheyardes those places be ment that be about the churches where we vse to burie the dead as it is moste lyke they be then heare I no reason at all Why you shoulde in suche maner speake of them excepte you will plucke downe whatsoeuer hathe beforetyme béene appoynted be it neuer so auncient and the vse thereof conuenient and necessarie There is no doubt but by Coemiteria are ment places of buriall whiche because they haue béene as you confesse at all tymes certayne especially in the peace of the Churche it is méete that they shoulde so still remayne And for as muche as the places nowe vsed if they were appoynted by Denis as it is moste lyke are fitly appoynted and moste conueniently in moste places you haue alleadged no cause as yet why they shoulde be remoued but the selfe same cause that maye be in lyke manner vsed to remoue the Churche and whatsoeuer else hathe beene deuised by any man be it otherwyse neuer so necessarie conuenient or comely But I will not followe you in these digressions where you onely spende paper with wordes voyde of proofe If you quote Eusebius 7. Lib. 13. to proue that the place of buriall was in the fieldes there can be no suche thing gathered of his wordes and if you quote him to proue that the worde signifieth a place of buriall you goe about to proue that which no man denieth Of Ministers that can not preache and of giuing licences to preache Tract 6. Some may be Ministers that can not preache Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The tenth Then the Ministers were (*) Philip. 2. 20. 25. Preachers nowe bare readers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3. Colos. 1. 7. Luke 9. 2 Your places of Scripture alleadged to proue that Ministers Unapt profes of the Admonition were then Preachers proue not that all were then Preachers The place in the seconde to the Philippians 20. verse is this For I haue no man lyke mynded vvho vvyll faythfully care for your matters And in the. 25. verse But I suppose it
neeessarie to sende my brother Epaphroditus to you my companion in laboure and fellovv souldiour euen your messanger and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted Collossians 1. verse 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached That of Luke chapter 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases as that they preached and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknesses aswell as preachers This I wryte onely to let you vnderstande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures to so small purpose Io. Whitgifte Ad haec ne verbum quidem but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke and that out of place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. vlt. I wishe that euery minister were a preacher but that beeing vnpossible as the state is now I see not how you can cōdemne reading Fayth commeth by reading ministers seeing reading is necessarie in the Church fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke as by rehearsing of thē without booke In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten c. But I neuer heard reading of the scriptures The Zuinfildians condemne reading of scripture reading of prayers reading of Homilies taken out of the scripture condemned but onely by the Authors of this booke and by the zuinfildians T. C. Page 50. Sect. vlt. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. If you should beget and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you would without better aduise shake many groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache but that beeing vnpossible as the state is nowe you are content with Pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedied then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater than it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And although it be a great deformitie and sore plague of the Churche whiche you here speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they should not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate but this I dare say that the chiefe of your gayne and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it Io. Whitgifte I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person for I am purposed to absteine The causes of the lacke of able ministers from requiting you in like sorte onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church is neyther the religion professed nor the gouernment that is vsed nor yet the gouernours But partly the crueltie of the times past wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling that is to be wished and partly nay chiefly principally you your schismes which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly some to forsake their pastorall charges and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings some to depraue the ministerie condemne it and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it as they can And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete able ministers derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church or frō the kinde of gouernment or the Magistrates but rather cōmendeth the same bicause notwithstanding al the former impediments yet hath it a number of excellent ministers doth continually bréed mo If any confession tende to the condemnation of any it is of you your adherents who haue more hindred slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England than the Papists eyther haue done or could possibly do And I am fully persuaded that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church is lacke of discipline towardes you who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church that the more you be suffered the greater doe you wounde it And in very déede the reformation you pretende is nothing but a méere confusion or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also My honour and gaine is but verie small yet it is more than I am worthie of but I trust the tyme will come when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner will be made manyfest and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required In the meane tyme God be iudge betwixt you and me Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be suche as you speake of that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse may you therfore make reading ministers In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only and no commaundement that Pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly that he should be able to teache and Tim. 1. 3. to conuince the gaynsayers I would learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can Tit. 1. cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradition of man You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake as breake this being comprehended in the fyrst table And tosay that these that can only reade must be tolerated in the Church as ministers is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches you will haue idolls for so will I not doubt to call them although through ignorance of that whiche they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupie they are idolls for they stand for that and make shew of that
other generally to all ministers Oflicences to preache Chap. 3. Admonition And if any be o well disposed to preache in their owne charges they may not withoute my Lordes licence Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3. YOu here finde fault that if a preacher be disposed to preache in Not to preac without li ▪ cence his cure he may not do it without my Lordes licence Where the word of God is professed Christian magistrates gouern there it is mete that no man should take vpon him any function except he be by the Magistrate to whom it doth appertein thervnto admitted And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypocrites heretikes schismatikes other euil disposed persons whiche study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church to occupie the people with their factions it is necessarie that none should be admitted to preache in any place without he be thervnto licenced by the Bishop who ought to haue a diligent care in that matter I suppose you are not of that mynd that men maye nowe in this Church vnder Christian magistrates preach without licence it hath always bin the opinion of wise learned godlie men that since the Apostles tyme none wer ordinarily called to the office of preaching but such as were called of God by man only Anabaptists and some other secte of heretikes teache the contrarie T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. What dealing is this to bring mē in suspition of y t which they neuer thought of as though there were any word y t founded to this y e a man should put himself into the office of preaching without the approbation of those (*) A doubtful saying men to whom it doth perteyne Their complaint is that those which are ordeyned Pastors and therfore to preach can not do it without further licence as if a man shoulde be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth him bindeth him hand foote that he can not do it vnlesse he will lose him The bishops inhable him to teach point him a place to teach in yet they wil not let him teath ▪ vnlesse he haue a further licence It h be an heretik or schismatike or suspected of any such thing ▪ why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffred to be so much as a reader n y ◠churche nd bicause you could not answer this therfore you set vp a fansie of yours to confute And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉 and you make triumphes where there is no victorie They wil say vnto you y t not only vnder a godly magistrate but not in y e time of persecution any man ought to ake vpon him any function in y e church ▪ vnlesse he be ther vnto called by mē except he haue a wonderful calling which is rare must be iligently examined by them which haue it 〈◊〉 nder pretence of the spirite of God whom they make author of their calling it fall out y e 〈◊〉 be but their own he long affection that hath thrust thē in so far they are from the frensy of Anaba tists which you by a confutation of y e which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with Io. Whitgifte This Repl e cōsisteth partly of equiuocations partly of 〈◊〉 suppositiōs For where you say y e no mā shuld put himself into the office of preaching w tout the approbation of those men to whō it doth apertein you speak ambiguously therfore you must explicate what you mean by those to whō it doth apertein whether y e people seniors as you cal them or y e bishops or y e ciuil Magistrate or such to whō y e ciuil Magistrat doth cōmit y e iudging of such matters For y e Auabaptistes confesse y e they must be called of their churches but they deny y e authoritie of the ciuil magistrat herein the authoritie of such also as he doth 〈◊〉 for y t end purpose Again you here suppose y t no man may preach out of his owne cure therfore being once admitted o preach there he nedeth no further licence ▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preache except he haue 〈◊〉 to be hort that 〈◊〉 ▪ heretikes schismatikes may be known foorthwith 〈◊〉 being suspected by and by remoued out of the ministerie ▪ all which suppositio s bēe vntiue and therfore this Replis full of greate absuraities Their meaning is playne that though there be iuste cause why the Bishoppe should inhibite them from preachyng bothe for theyr contentions and also for their errours yet woulde they preache whether the Byshoppe wyll or no for the case is theyr owne They were admytted to preache in theyr cures and elsewhere so long as they vsed them selues modestlye quietly and taught sounde doctrine but after they began to deuide the Churche and make contention in it they were restrayned from preachyng vntill suche tyme as vpon their submission and reformation they shoulde be there vnto admitted agayne hinc illae lachrymae this is the matter and hereto you answere ne gry quidem Of the apparell of Ministers Tract 7. The causes why they refuse the apparell examined Chap. 1. the fyrst Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. 3. The cappe the surplis and tippet are not the greatest matters we striue for whych notwithstandyng hath bene enformed to the Churches beyonde sea to the ende that the iudgementes of some myghte be the easlyer had agaynst vs. Howbeit we thinke it an attyre vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell to weare and the Surplis especially more than the other two bycause suche hurtefull Ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they doe approche nearer the seruice ▪ or worship of God Io. Whitgifte Yet in the beginning suche was youre pretence neyther was there any thing else that you contended for as it is well knowne to all men that had to deale with you or hearde of you I am certainly perswaded that if the Churches beyonde sea did fully vnderstande your procéeding together with the state of thys Churche of Englande that they woulde as bitterly write againste you and as willingly condemne you as euer they dyd the Anabaptistes But to your reasons agaynste the apparell Chap. 1. the second Diuision T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 4. The causes why wee are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hande * This assertion is contrary to your practise Monumentes of idolatrie may be vsed if they haue any profite bycause that we thinke any pollution so to sticke to the things themselues as that the wearyng of them had any suche power to pollute and make vncleane the vsers of them Neyther yet only bicause the Papistes haue superstitiously vsed them but bycause they hauing bene abhominably avnsed by them haue no vse nor profyte in those thinges or endes wherein and wherevnto they are nowe vsed And further that
hath not knowledge is by my example edi ied or strengthened to weare a Surp sse wherof he can tel no ground why he should weare it and so sinneth agaynst his con and for this cause S. Paule concludeth that that which a man may o in respect of him selfe may not be done and is not lawfull to be done in respect of other Io. Whitgifte If to weare a surplis were an offence to the weake or if there were not manifest The weake are not offended but they which accōpte them selues most strong groundes in Scripture suche I meane as commaunde obedience to superiours to proue the wearing of the surplis to be lawfull then were it some thyng that you saye But seeing suche onely be offended therewith as accompte themselues most strong and condemne other of infirmitie séeing also that obedience to Magisirates in such indifferent things hath manifest groundes in scripture and to doubt of obedience in suche matters is in eff cte to plucke the Magistrate his sworde out of his hand this reason hath not so muche as any similitude of probabilitie in it Is there any minister of the Churche for of suche only is the Surplis required that will rather bée moued to weare a surplis by the example of an other than by the consideration of his duetie towardes the lawe and 〈◊〉 of the Churche by due authoritie in a lawfull and indifferent thing appointed you might make the same reason serue to plucke downe the Churche the Pulpit the Belles yea to ouerthrowe all orders and all lawes in things indifferent whiche all haue the same grounde of obedience that the surplis hath In the Conf ssion of the Dutche Churche in London whiche is allowed by the Things indifferēt chāge their nature be g cōmanded or forbidden Confess Ec les Belgiog rman Churche of GENEVA and diuers other reformed Churches whereof I haue made mention before it is thus written of things indifferent Things otherwyse indifferent of themselues after a sorte chaunge their nature when by some comma ndement they are eyther commaunded or forbidden bycause neyther they can bee omitted contrarie to the commaundement if they be once commaunded neyther done contrarie to the prohibition if they be prohibited as it appeareth in the Ceremoniall lawe So that the grounde why a man shoulde weare the surplis béeing an indifferente thyng as you co fesse it to be can not be vnknowne to any but suche as know not the ground of their obedience towardes authoritie It is true that in some things indifferent a man must haue respect to the weakenesse In what kind of 〈◊〉 thinges we ughte to haue a resp ct of the we ke of his brother and absteyne from doing that whiche he might lawfully doe rather than to off nde his brother But that is in suche indifferente thynges as bée not by any lawe commaunded or forbidden but lefte frée to euery man to do or not to doe As if to weare the Surplis were by no lawe commaunded but lefte to euery mannes owne disposition then surely if there were any weake offended with the wearyng of it I oughte to absteyne for the weake hys sake but béeyng by lawfull authoritie commaunded to weare it if I should refuse so to do I shoulde offend against the Magistrate and against God who by his Apostle hath giuen thys commaundement omnis anima potestatibus c. let euery soule be subi ct to the higher power Rom. 1 c. which is to be vnderstanded in all things that are not against God And therfore if any man be offended with me in so doing the offence is taken it is not giuen Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. vlt. Agayne for the stubborne Papists they take herevpon occasion to speake euill of and to bl spheme the truth of the gospell saying that our religion cannot stand by itselfe vnlesse it lea e vpon the staffe of their ceremonies and perswade themselues that those were very well deuised by their Popes that they that are their nimies to their religion cannot be without And herv on they ake occasion to hope that their other trumper e and baggage will in the nd come in againe which ca seth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse and shut their eares vnto the tru h which possibly they would heare if all hope of bringing in of their Poperie were cut off Io. Whitgifte This is but a mere fancy for first it was brought into the Church before theyr Popes whome they hold vpon inuaded that seate as it is afterwards declared Secondly they be not matters that they make any greate accompt of Thirdly they know fullwell that we could be without them and that we but only for obedience sake do not much estéeme of them Wherefore this is an argument framed only vppon light coniectures But beit all this were true shall we for their fancie or fonde iudgement refuse to do that which is lawfull which we may d and which we are bound to do Or in making orders for the Church must we enquire what their opiniō wil be Then plucke downe Churches ▪ c. for of them they make a greater reck ning than they do of the surplisse or any other such like matter I thinke verely that there is not one Papist in England that doth take occasion vpon any thing reteyned in this Church to hope that their other trumperie and baggage will in the end come in gayne neyther is there any cause in respect of them why they should so hope and if they do yet I doubte not but that they shall hoppe without that hope But a man may imagine if he will that there is a man in the Moone with a tree on his backe c. and you cannot let him Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 53. Lin. 5. And let it be obserued that throughout the realme there are none that make such clamours and outcries and complaints for these ceremonies as they and those that they suborne They pretende I confe se the Queenes maiestres Imunctions and 〈◊〉 vnto them but who is so blinde as seeth not that they haue another meaning For I appeale vnto the consciences of all that knowe them whether they do it for any obedience towards hi maiestie whose death should be a thousand times better newes vnto them than hir graces mariage Io. Whitgifte The more is the pittie that they should haue suche i st cause of clamoring and that The clamors of Papists should mo the ministers to more circumspection those which should teach them obedience to God and their Prince be examples to the contrary A subtill and craftie Papist wil be glad of any cause of quarelling the more circumspect therefore ought the minister to be in taking héede lest he giue iust cause of the same But there be honest godly and zelous men also that cannot abide s che disorder and contempt whome peraduenture you would gladly straine with the note
is well that you seeme to iustifye the gray Amyse bycause the Bishops haue disalowed of it in theyr Synode Truly this is your conscience and religion to be always ad oppositum to disalow that which law authoritie alloweth and allow that which they disalow The nexte waye as I thinke to driue you vnto conformitie in apparell were to make a streight law that no man should weare such kind of apparell bycause you loue to be contrary to lawes and good orders T. C. Page 57. Sect 3. 4. 5. Now I will desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages to see whether at this third voyage master Doctor bringeth any better marchandise Where first he surmiseth an vntruth as though the Admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis where it saith only that there was lesse cause to take that away than the surplis c. Wherein there is nothing but the truth sayd for bycause that was vsed in fewe churches and but of fewe also in those few churches Therefore if there were cause to take away that there was greater to take away the surplis And to take away the Amis out of the Church and leaue the surplis c. is to heale a scratch and leaue a wound vnhealed Now whereas you say that we are always Ad appositum and that if the lawe commaunded straightly that we should weare none of this apparel that then we would weare if it should be answered againe that you do (*) I 〈◊〉 as few times as you Seruire scenae that is that you are a time seruer you see we mighte speake with more likelyhoode than you But we will not take as you do the iudgemente of God out of his hands but will attend paciently the reuelation and discouering of that whiche is nowe hidde both in you and vs. And although you will graunt vs neyther learning nor conscience yet you might afford vs so much witte as that we would not willingly and of purpose want those commodities 〈◊〉 which we might otherwise enioy as well as you if we had that gift of conformitie which you haue Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the Admonition touching the gray Amise be these we maruayle that they could espie in their last synode that a gray Amis which is but a garmēt of dignitie should be a garment as they say defiled with superstitiō and yet that coapes c. Do they not say that the Amis is but a garment of dignitie c consider their words well and you shall sée that master Doctor hath said truly The gray Amis was iustly taken away bycause the vse of it is not established by any law of this realme as the vse of other vestures be and in mine opinion the Byshops deserued commendation in so doing for thereby they declared that they will not suffer any rites or ornaments to be vsed in this Church but suche only as are by publike authoritie established Experience hathe taught me that diuerse men be of that nature that they haue a Some men delight to be contrary to times delight in opposing themselues to the present estate and I sée it by proofe to be a great fault in diuers of you I haue hitherto serued as few contrary times as you haue done as for the gift of conformitie which you say I haue I thanke God for it I haue learned to conforme my selfe to the time in that sense that S. Paule hath willed me so to do Rom. 12. and to Rom. 12. Rom. 13. lawes also and magistrates as I am likewise commauuded in the. 13. Chapter of the same epistle What commodities you want that I haue I cannot coniecture your meate and drinke is prouided with lesse trouble and charges vnto you and in more delicate and deintie manner than mine is your ease and pleasure ten times more you do what you list go when you list come when you list speake when you list at your pleasure What would you haue more I know not why you should complaine except you be of the same disposition with the Franciscane Friers who when they hadde filled their bellies at other mens tables were wont to cry out and say O quanta patimur c. Some men are delited to be fed at other mens tables and preferre popular fame befor Gold and siluer The faults wherewith the Admonitors charge the Apparell ansvvered Chap. 7. the. 1. Diuision Admonition But they are as the garments of the idoll to which we should say auaunt and get the e h ▪ They are as the garments of Balaamites of Popish priests enimies to God and all christians h Esa. 30. 22. Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 237. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 238. Sect. 1. But you say they are as the garmentes of the Idoll to the whiche we should say auant Cursed thigs consecrated to God and get thee hence they are as the garments of Balaamites of Popish priests enimies to God and all Christians Be it so so were all things in Hierico accursed and an abhomination to the Lord neither was it lawfull for the Israelites to touch any thing therof and yet was the gold and the siluer and the brasen and iron vessels caried into the treasure house of the Lord and consecrated vnto him Iosua 6. Gedeon was commaunded to take and sacrifice that Oxe of his fathers Gedeon sacrificed an oxe consecrated to Baal to God which his father had fedde and brought vp to be sacrificed to Baal yea and to burne that Oxe with the selfesame wood that was consecrated and dedicated to the Idoll Baal Iudic. 6. Our forefathers toke the temples dedicated wholly to Idolls yea to Deuils and most abhominably defiled with diuelish and abhominable seruice and turned them into holy Churches wher Christ should be worshipped T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. 6. 7. Whereas you say that the accursed things of Iericho and the Oxe that was fedde to be anctified vnto Baal and the wood consecrated vnto the Idoll were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God when you shall proue that the surplis is so necessary to the seruice of God as gold and siluer and other mettall and as Oxen and wood whereof the first sort were such as without the which the temple could not be built the other such as were expressely commaunded of God ▪ to be vsed in his seruice then I will confesse that this place maketh something for you And (*) Here you disport your selfe with your owne imagination yet if your coapes and surplices c. should haue such a purgation by fyre as those (a) No such purgation to be found in that place metalls had or euer the Lord would admitte them into his treasure house and should be driuen to passe from Poperie vnto the gospell by the Chimney the fire would make suche wracke with them that they should neede haue better legges than your arguments to bring them into the Church Moreouer do you not
see heere that you haue not losed the knotte but cut it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay 30. and you obiect againe the places of Deuteronomy and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sword in stead that you shoulde haue first holden out your buckler and latched the blow of your aduersary As for Churches it hath bin answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplis whiche beside that it bringeth no profyte hurteth also as is before said Io. Whitgifte That wood that golde and that Oxe c. was not so necessary but that bothe God might haue bin serued and the temple builded without them and therefore that is no answere Things dedicated to idolls may be conuerted to gods honour For although gold wood oxen c. be necessary yet the golde and siluer founde in I richo the Oxe reserued by Gedeons father and wood that was consecrated to Baal was not so necessary for there might haue bin other golde siluer wood oxen c. prouided In that God commaunded these things to be done you know that S. Augustine in the epistle ad Publicolam in the words before rehearsed doth conclude a generall doctrine that things dedicated to Idolls may be conuerted to common vses and to the honoure of God For he vseth the selfesame places to proue the same and answereth that which may be alledged to the contrary out of Deuterono So doth it also the place of Esay quoted in the margent of the Admonition which answer if it will not satisfy you then do I further referre you to that which I haue also before alleadged out of M. Caluine writing vpon the. 23. of Exod. verse 24. But thys place of Esay and suche lyke are vnaptly alleadged agaynste the apparell nowe vsed being nothing of that nature that those thinges be whereof the Prophete in that place speaketh You say if our coapes and surplices c. should haue suche a purgation by fyr c. I pray you where reade you of any such purgation by fire of those metalls before they were admitted into the Lords treasure house And what purgation by fire coulde there be of the wood or of the oxe before they were vsed in the sacrifice and s ruice of the Lorde There is no such purging of the things taken in Iericho mentioned in that Chapter but the Iosu. 6. ver 24 contrary for thus it is written After they burnt the citie with fire and all that was therein only the siluer and gold and the vessels of brasse and iron they put into the treasure house of the Lorde and in the place before where Iosua is commaunded to reserue these things there is no commaundement of any such purging As your common answer is this that such things haue profitable vses and therfore may be reteyned though they were consecrated to Idols which is but a shift of your owne without any ground so I say that these vestures haue a decent and comely vse and be referred to order and therefore may be reteyned likewise although they were vsed in Idolatrie And if you shal answer and say that ther may be other things vsed mo t comely and decently then I reply that so there may be places as commodious as these Churches golde siluer wood c. as good and as profitable as that And if you obiect that they be not comely and decent then I say vnto you that it is your part and the part of all those that be obedient to submitte your selues to the iudgement of those that be in authoritie except they commaund such things as be contrary to the commaundement of God Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Fol. 238. Sect. 2. 3. No man 〈◊〉 defile the nature form of things To be short no Deuill no Idoll no Pope can so defile the nature or forme not being contrary to the scriptures of any of Gods creatures that the libertie of a Christian man shuld be taken away in vsing and not vsing them Bucer And I say againe with M. Bucer that for any thing to be a note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in itselfe for to that end nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogyther of consenting to Antichristes religion and the professing thereof The vvhiche consente and profession being changed into the consente and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the thinges themselues no note or marke of Antichristes religion The vse of bells vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and vvhen they vvere roong against tempests novv they are a token of Cstristianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered togyther to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions c. T. C. Page 57. Sect. vlt. To be short saith M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before where he hath had his answer Io. Whitgifte Surely this iesting spirite was neuer in any of the Apostles or Martyrs of Christes Church that I can reade but to passe it ouer M. Doctors Short is very shortly answered the cause wherof I referre to the Reader Howsoeuer you iest out the matter you haue neither answered M. Doctors to be short nor that which is translated Chap. 7. the third Diuision Admonition They serue not to edification Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. 3. You say also that they do not edify If you say that they do not edify Ceremonies do not edify of themselues but tend to edification of themselues you say truly for only the holy Ghost on this sort doth edify by the ministerie of the word But if you say they edifye not at all that is that they do not tend to edifying as other ceremonies and things vsed in the Church as Pulpit Church kneeling singing and such like which be appointed for order and decencie do then speake you that whiche you are not able by sound arguments to iustify Io. Whitgifte To this not one word Chap. 7. the fourth Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. vlt. Peter Martyr in his epistle written to M. Hooper thinketh that they do edify after a sort as other ceremonies do And so doth M. Bucer also in his epistle written to M. Alasco T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. vlt. After this he setteth himselfe to proue that they do edify and that firste by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritie and yet in their words before alleadged there is not a word of edifying If he gather it of their words the answer is already made Io. Whitgifte I tell you it is in their epistles not in their words before alleadged M. Bucers worde Bucer be these Now if any Church iudge and haue experience such as I doubt not there are many at these days in Germany that the vse of such vesture bringeth some commendation to the holy
is one of the principall causes of edifying contrariwise such as refuse the same apparel not only dissent disagree among themselues but fal into diuers strange opiniōs without stay slander the gospel with their contentiousnesse and teare in peeces the Church of Christ with their factions and schismes and be the cause why both the worde of God and Christian magistrates be almost generally contemned T. C. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. The thirde reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poyntes of doctrine and they that doe not weare it do not consent not so muche as amongst themselues I this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice cope c. tell vs I beseech you whether in the matter or in the forme or in what h dde and vnknowne qualitie standeth it If it be n that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruel that this being so strong a bonde to holde them together in godlie vnitie that it was neuer commaunded of Christe nor practised of Prophets or Apostles ether of no other re ormed Churches I had thought wholly that those things whiche the Lorde oppoynteth to mayntayne and keepe vnitie with and specially the holie Sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lordes Supper had bene strong ynough to haue fyrste of all knitte vs vnto the Lorde and therefore also to his doctrine and then one of vs to an other and that the dissentings in suche a Ceremonie as a Surplice c. neyther should nor could in those that 〈◊〉 vnto God breake the vnitie of the Spirite which is bounde with the bonde of truthe And although there bee whyche lyke not this apparell that thinke otherwyse than eyther theyr brethren or than in deede they oughte to doe yet a man may fynde greater dissent amongest those whiche are vnyted in Surplice and Cope c. than there is amongest those whyche weare them not eyther wyth them selues or with them that weare them For howe many there are that weare Surplices whiche woulde bee 〈◊〉 to saye a Masse than to heare a Sermon lette all the worlde iudge And of those that 〈◊〉 weare this apparell and be otherwyse well mynded to the Gospell are there not whiche wyl weare the Surplice and not the cappe other that will weare bothe cap end surplice but not the tippet and yet a thirde sorte that will weare surplice cappe and tippet but not the cop It hathe bene the manner alwayes of wyse and learned men to esteeme of things by the causes an not by the euent and that especially in matters of religion for if they should be esteemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battel agaynst Aye and 〈◊〉 agaynst the Bemamites which notwithstandyng the cause which was Gods wil and Gods maundement iustifyeth And therfore in a word I answer that if there be such con ent mongst those which like well of this apparel and such arres amongst those y t like it not as M. 〈◊〉 woulde make the worlde beleeue neyther is the w aryng of a surplice c. cause of that consent in thē nor the not wearing cause of that disagrement in the other But as our knowledge and loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agreement and consent of iudgement vnperfect And yet all these hard speaches of yours or vncharitable suspicions of papisme Anabaptisme catharisme dona sme c. wherby you do as much as lyeth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shall not be able so to estrange vs or separate vs from you but that we will by gods grace holde whatsoeuer you holde well and kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth euen with you Master Doctor whom we s ppose as appeareth by this your booke to haue set yourselfe further frō vs than numbers of those whiche althoughe they be content to receiue the apparell and beare with things yet would haue bene loth to haue set downe that against the sinceritie of the Gospell and hind rance of reformation which you haue bone Io. Whitgifte Such lawes orders as kepe godly peace and vnitie in the Church do 〈◊〉 but the lawes for apparell kepe godly peace vnitie in the Church Ergo they edifie The M nor I proue by experience of such as are subiect to these lawes by the euent which is a probable kinde of reasoning though it be not necessarie neither may the examples of a few improue that which is generally true almost in all These persons that you talke of which be thus contrarily mynded if there be any such as I thinke you do but faine yet do they kepe the peace of the Church they condemne not their brethren neither yet the apparel that they them selues peraduenture for some speciall cause weare not Some I know there are which agrée with vs in wearing the apparell and ioyne with you in contention subscribe to all our orders articles and yet in certaine places and companies mainteine your opinions but of such we make no accompt neither I thinke do you further than they may serue your turne Againe I confesse that there be some which haue not receiued the apparell and yet greatly mislike many of your opinions and kéepe with vs the vnitie of the Churche whom I for my part haue alwayes reuerenced do reuerence not onely for their singular vertue learning but for their modestie also Wherfore when I speake eyther of the one or of the other I speake not of all but of the most part Certaine it is that those things which the Lord appointeth to kepe vnitie with and especially the sacraments ought to be the especiall bond of the same that nothing should separate those that are coupled and ioyned therein but we sée it fall out o the wise such is the crooked rebellious nature of mā therfore hath God also appointed Magistrats and giuen them a thoritie to make orders lawes to mainteine the peace and vnitie of the Churche that those which of conscience and good disposition will not by suche lawes and orders may be constrained at the least to kéepe the externall peace and vnitie of the Churche Doe you take this to be a good reason The Sacrament are bond to kepe and mainteyne the v itie of the spirite therefore there 〈◊〉 no lawes or Magistrates T. imagineth suche a perfection as is not to be ounde to prouide for the externall peace and quietnesse of the Churche your imagination throughoute your whole booke is of suche a perfection in men as thoughe they néeded no lawes or Magistrates to gouerne them but that euery man mighte be as it were a lawe to himselfe whiche wherevnto it tendeth may easily be coniectured I haue not set downe any thing I trust to the hinderance of the Gospell or of reformation ▪ but I séeke to reforme such contentious spirites as be enimyes vnto both And I
beléeue that when some other not onely such as you meane but such as you least thinke of shall vnderstande the depth of your opinions together with the strangenesse vntruth da gerousnesse other circumstances ioyned with them they will thinke that I haue spoken or written nothing eyther vntruely or vnnecessarily In the meane tyme I discharge my conscience and duetie and so will doe God willing as long as I can either speake or write Chap. 7. the eight Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 239. Sect. 4. I here omit that which I might as iustly bring for this kynde of apparell as you do for sitting at the coÌ„munion I meane a fit profitable signification wherof M. Martyr speaketh in the Epistle before mentioned on this sort I vvill not here say that they vvhich stand to the P. Martyr defence of this matter may pretend some honest and iuste significatioÌ„ of the apparell and that not dissenting from the vvorde of God vvhich is this the Ministers of the Church as the Prophet Malachie vvitnesseth be Angels and Gods messengers but Angels for the most parte appeared beyng clothed in vvhite garmentes I pray you hovv shall vve debarre the church of this libertie that it can not signifie some good thing in setting forth their rites and ceremonies especially being so done that no manner of Gods honour is attributed vnto them and that they be in sight comely and in number fevve and that Christian people be not vvith them ouerburdened and matters of greater importance be omitted T. C. Pag. 59. Line 5. The white apparell which is a note and a true representation of the glory and purenesse in the Angels should be a lying signe and pretence of that which is not in the Ministers which are miserable Master Mar yrs words pe uer ted â–ª and sinfull men And our sauiour Christ which was the minister of God and pure from sinne and therefore meetest to weare the markes of purenesse vsed no suche kinde of wede sauing onely for that small time wherein he would giue to his disciples in the mount a taste of that glory which he should enioy for euer and they with him where for the time his apparell appeared as white as snow And if it be meete that y e ministers should represent the Angels in their apparell it is much more meete that they should haue a paire of winges as the Angels are described to haue to put them in remembrance of their readinesse and quicknesse to execute their office which may ought to be in them than to weare white apparell which is a token of purenesse from sinne and infection and of a glory which neither they haue nor can haue nor ought so much as to desire to haue as long as they be in this worlde And whereas the mainteyners of this apparell haue for theyr greatest defence that it is a thing meere ciuill to let passe that they confounde ecclesiasticall orders with ciuill which they can no more iustly doe than to confounde the Churche wyth the common wealth I saye to let that passe they doe by this meanes not onely make it an Ecclesiasticall ceremonye but also a matter of conscience For if o be that the white apparell of the Minister haue any force eyther to moue the people or the Minister vnto greater purenesse or to any other godlynesse whatsoeue then it is that which ought to be commaunded and to be obeyed of necessitie and to be reteyned although the contrarie were forbidden And then also if there be a vertue in a whitegarment and the 〈◊〉 thereof be so strong to worke godlynesse it were meete that order were taken (a) Here you play with a feather that the whitest cloth shoulde be bought that should be often at the leaste euery weeke once washed by a very good la nder and with sope for if the white (b) You vnderstand not this topicall place for it ho deth in those hings on ly quae ê‘ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ aliquid ac unt helpe more white helpeth more and that whych is most white helpeth moste of all to godlynesse Although the Churche haue authoritie to make Ceremonyes so they be accordyng to the rules before recited of Gods glory and profiting the congregation I coulde for all that neuer yet learne that it had power to gyue newe significations as it were to institute newe Sacramentes And by thys meanes is taken cleane away from vs the holde whiche we haue agaynst the Papistes whereby agaynst all the goodly shewes which they make by the colour of these significations we saye that the worde of God and the Sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Supper of the Lorde are sufficient to teache to admoni he and to put vs in remembraunce of all duetie whatsoeuer So we are nowe come to the superstition of the Grecians for as they wyll haue neyther grauen nor car ed image in theyr Churches but paynted so will we neyther haue grauen nor carued nor paynted but wouen And truely I see no cause why w may not haue as wel holy water and holy bread if thys reason which is heere be good for I am sure the significations of them are as glorious as this of the surplice and call to remembrance as necessarie things And if it be sayde that it maye not be leaste the number of Ceremonyes shoulde be to to greate it maye be easily answered that these whiche we haue maye be taken awaye and those set in place of them And therefore althoughe the surplice haue a blacke spottè when it is whitest yet is it not so blacke as you make it wyth your white significations nor the cause so cu ll as you d fende it If you presse me wyth M. Martyrs and M. Bucers authoritie (c) An easie kind of answering I first say they were men therefore although otherwyse very watchfull yet such as slept some times And then I appeale from their Apocryphas vnto their knowne writings and from theyr priuate letters vnto theyr publike recordes Io. Whitgifte I haue here onely set downe M. Martyrs words to shew that I might as iustly bring in a fit and profitable signification of the apparell as the authors of the Admonition doe of sitting at the communion I dyd not allow their signification of sitting neyther doe I approue any suche signification of Apparell but yet you will gyue me leaue to set the one agaynste the other and to shewe that I mighte aswell doe the one as they doe the other You peruert Master Martyrs wordes for he sayth that for as muche as Angels appeared Meere ciuill things may haue signification in white apparell and the Ministers of the Churche be Angels and Gods messengers therefore the Churche maye appoynt to hir Ministers suche apparell in signification of their office Which you doe not answere but range vp and downe at your pleasure like vnto a spaniell not taughte to followe his game M. Martyr doth not say that the apparell is a
beeing collected to the setting foorthe of true Religion and good orders in the Churche be read there also as in a moste meete place But I perceyue you are enimies to reading bicause you loue so wel to heare your selues talking I will say no worse T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 4. You know they allowe studying for sermons and amplifying expounding of the scriptures and why then doe you aske But by this question you would haue your Reader thinke or at the least haue the Authors of the Admonition in suspicion that they lyked not of studie for sermons God make vs more careful of the good name of our brethren than by suche light and vngrounded suspicions nay without any suspicion nay contrarie to that which is dayly seene hard to rayse vp suche slanderous reportes of them But Homilies are smally beholding vnto you which to proue that they may be read in the Churche alleage that Augustine and Chrysostome made sermons in their Churches for that which we call a sermon they called of the Greeke worde an Homilie so that the argument is that Augustine and Chrysostome preached sermons or homilies in their Churches therefore we may reade Homilies in ours But peraduenture you haue some better thing to say for them afterwarde Io. Whitgifte I haue heard some fautors of theirs earnestly reason agaynst studying for sermons and it is not long since it was almoste in playne termes in the Pulpit preached I thinke they studie for their sermons but howe diligently they studie or whether they would séeme to studie or no I knowe not the wordes of the Admonition are very suspicious That whiche I speake of Augustine and Chrysostome aptly serueth for my purpose for althoughe they were Augustines and Chrysostomes sermons yet in that they haue bothe committed them to writing and lefte them to their posteritie it argueth that they thought them to be very profitable for the Church Neyther do I sée any cause why they should rather nowe be thought vnlawfull to be read than they were then to be preached but yet one thing we may note that bothe Augustine and Chrysostome writte their Homilies or sermons and therefore it may be that they did also sometime reade them in the Churche Of Archebishops Metropolitanes Bishops Archedeacons c. Tract 8. The reasons of T. C. answered whereby he goeth about to take away the superfluous loppe as he termeth it of these offyces Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The thirtenth and fourtenth Then (c) 1. Tim. 3. 1. it was paynefull nowe gaynefull (d) Phil. 4. 11. 2. Cor. 6. 4. 8. 10. Then poore and ignominious nowe riche and glorious Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 63. Sect. vlt. It was then as it vseth to be vnder the crosse And it is now as it Scil the ministerie vseth to be when God doth blesse it with peace quietnesse and godly Magistrates And yet surely euen now it is more paynefull than gaynefull more ignomious than riche and glorious and that doe those knowe that beare the heate of the daye But it is the more The ministerie is nowe more payneful than gaineful ▪ paynfull and ignominious for you who ceasse not with rayling and spitefull words in Pulpits and at tables to depraue and backebite your brethren to trouble the whole state with your factions and dayly inuented newe opinions the persecution of the sworde ceasseth but the persecution of the tongue is extreme hotte and we who gayne so muche and be so glorious are molested aswell by you as by the Papist and Atheist and therfore not very glorious T. C. Pag. 61. Sect. 1. A hundreth poundes by yere is taken of some benefice for whiche foure sermons onely are preached and those sometimes by an other If this be more paynefull than gaynefull it is bicause the horseleeche hath two daughters giue giue c. And I can not seehowe they can be more glorious Pro. 30. vnlesse the Palace were turned into a Court and their chayre into a throne There are diuers The twelfth of Mat. straungely applyed places that God hathe blessed with peace where the ministers take more payne and haue Math. 12. lesse gayne and whiche make * lesse noyses when they goe in the streates We haue (a) A vayne bragge thoug it were true amongst vs which haue had Bishoprickes offered and as things vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell haue refuse them ▪ God be praysed the sunne shineth not so hotte in this countrey nowe that you neede to complayne of any great heate and if you feele any heate you haue better shade than Ionas had by his gourde ▪ Io. Whitgifte It may be that he which hath an hundreth poundes by the yere for whiche foure sermons onely are preached c. if there be any suche taketh more paynes for the Churche is more carefull for the state of it suffereth more opprobrious wordes and false slaunders whiche is not the least kinde of persecution for dooing his duetie and kéeping him selfe within the listes of obedience towardes God and his Prince than those doe that glorie moste of persecution and lacke of liuing He that hathe muche is also occasioned to spende muche neyther is his paynes the lesse but more if he be once desirous to doe his duetie And the higher he is in degrée the more subiecte to the enuious backbiter and to the slaunderous tongue Those that haue suche Palaces and make suche noyse when they goe in the streates c. I thinke verily take more paynes and care in and for the Churche of God profite their Countrey more in one moneth than you and all your company do in a whole yere Nay I woulde to God it might be sayde you profited Their pompe and their Palaces are by lawfull authoritie committed vnto them and the true Martyrs of God haue occupied the same or the like before them and yet Martyrs too Who amongst you they be that haue had Bishoprickes offered vnto them I knowe not but if they boast of their deniall and haue suborned you to make it knowne they haue their rewarde It maye be the Bishopricke was to little for them and they looked for some greater and so missed bothe but I will not iudge surely this bragge commeth héere out of place The heate of the tongue and backbiter bothe I and other may greatly complayne of and I hope we get not our liuing by going vp and downe the streates and feasting dayly at other mens tables or as Diogenes did by disdayning and contemning all others Melius est vinum bibere cum ratione quà m aquam cum fastu superbia It is better to drinke wyne with discretion than water with haughtinesse and pride It is also more acceptable to God to dwell in a Palace and liue in abundance with dooing a mans duetie towarde God and his Churche than to lye in prison for disdayne and contempte Godly men may enioy preferment and suche as be arrogant and wilfull
that all other be vnder him haue their authoritie from him But this name may also aptly be giuen vnto 〈◊〉 that haue the ouersight of other bishops in the externall gouernment of the Churche in the which as I haue sayd Magistrates be called Gods Christ is the only head of the Church if by the head you vnderstande that which giueth How Christ is the onely head of the churche the bodie lyfe sense and motion For Christ only by his spirite doth giue life and nutriment to his bodie He only doth poure spirituall blessings into it and doth inwardly direct and gouerne it Likewise he is only the head of the whole Church for that title can not agree to any other But if by the head you vnderstande an xternall ruler or gouernour of any particular nation or Church in which signification head is vsually taken then I doe not perceiue why the Magistrate maye not How the ma gistrat 〈◊〉 be called 〈◊〉 of the church as well be called the head of the Churche that is the chiefe gouernour of it in the externall policie as he is called the head of the people and of the common weal h. And as it is no absurditie to say that the ciuill magistrate is heade of the common wealth next and immediatly vnder God for it is moste true so is it none to say that vnder God also he is head of the Churche that is chiefe gouernour as I haue before sayde Constantine in an Epistle that he writeth to the people of Alexandria Bishops called heades of churches and yet y e Popes supremacie i vsurped as it is reported by Athanasius Apol. 2. calleth Bishoppes Ecclesiarum capita the heades of their Churches And yet is the Popes Supremacie vsurp d bothe bicause it taketh from Magistrates that whiche is due vnto them and also vsurpeth the authoritie of Chryste in remittyng and retaynyng synnes in making Lawes contrarye to Gods Lawes whyche he sayeth be necessarie to Saluation in makyng hys Supremacie a matter of Saluation and in chalengyng authoritie ouer the whole Churche of Christ and an hundreth suche lyke presumptions The Archbishop being both vnder God and his Prince hath his name onely in respecte of his authoritie in certaine causes aboue other Bishops and that but in one prouince or kingdome only neyther can eyther the name or vse of it as it is in this Church offende any but such as be offended with all superiors and think that none ought to be better than themselues Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 1. 2. In the primitiue church the * name of a Pope was honest was al one with the name of a good Tertull. lib. de 〈◊〉 Cyp. li. 27. Hierome in his epistles to Augustine pastor but nowe by the ambition of the man of Rome it is so defyled that euery good man shaketh at the very mention of it The name of a tyrant was fyrst honorable and the same with a king and yet through crueltie and vniust rule of certaine it is become nowe so hatefull that no vpright and iust dealing Prince none that gouerneth with equitie and to the commoditie of his subiectes woulde beare to be called tyranne wherby it may appeare that it is not for nought that we doe stande of these names Io. Whitgifte Papa signifieth a father and was in tymes paste common to all Bishops but nowe it is proper to the bishop of Rome and therefore hated for his sake whome it nowe signifieth So tyrannus sometyme signified a king generally no e it signinifyeth A lawfull name maye remaine though it hath bene abused a cruell king and a bloudie gouernoure and therefore also abhorred But an Archbishop though the persons at sometime haue degenerated yet the name hath continued in the same signification and therfore the reasen is nothing lyke except you wil also for the lyke cause cōdemne the name of a Bishop or of a king for there haue bene many euill men called by the name of bishops and many tyrants by the name of kings and yet the names neuer the worsse If names shoulde be chaunged so ofte as they be abused some had nede to haue an office only to inuent new names There was a certaine kinde of heretikes that called themselues Apostolike and yet the name of an Apostle is neuer the worse A lawfull name of a lawfull office may remaine together with the office howesoeuer before tyme it hath bin abused Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 2. Nowe if the names ought to be odious being both horribly abused and also * Petitio principii for you haue not yet proued this forbidden by our Sauior Christ the things themselues must be in greater hatred the vnlawfulnesse whereof may thus appeare Io. Whitgifte This is a manifest petition of the principle and in no pointe as yet proued But let vs heare the reasons why the office should be condemned Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 3. First of all the ministerie is by the word of God and heauenly and not left to the wil of men to Scriptures willingly falsified ▪ to make them serue his turne deuise at their pleasure as appereth by that whych is noted of S. Iohn where the * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them Phariseys cō ming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Chryst or Elias or an other prophet * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them conclude if thou be neither Christ nor Elias nor of y e Prophets why baptizest thou whych had ben no good argument if S. Iohn might haue ben of some other function thā of those which were ordinarie in the churche and instituted of God And therfore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinarie function alledgeth the worde of God whereby appeareth that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine so it was not lawfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function than was instituted by God Io. Whitgifte This is your fyrst argument the Phariseys comming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Christ or Elias or an other Prophet conclude if thou be neyther Chryste nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptizest thou Ergo there may be no Archbishops which is your meaning But least you shoulde thinke that I cauill I will vse your owne conclusion which is this Ergo there was no other ordinarie function in the Churche This argument hath neyther head nor foote forme nor matter is this your exquisitenesse The disordered argument of y e Replier in Logike First your antecedent is vntrue and builded vpon the false allegation of the Scripture For the Phariseys doe not say vnto him If thou bee neyther Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets but these be the wordes of the text If thou bee not
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
to whom God hath committed the sworde of gouernment such insolent audacitie against states and lawfull regiment is rather to be corrected with due punishment than confuted by argument T. C. Page 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a needefull office there are inowe to execute it besydes the Ministers which for as much as they be appointed to watche ouer the soules of men purchased with the bloude of Christ all men vnderstand that it is not meete that they shoulde attend vpon the bodie muche lesse vpon the legge and least of al vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue Ministers of their honor but also it is not lawfull to take those that God hath appoynted for another ende to vse to such purposes Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor kepeth his olde wont of (*) Vntruthe manifest peruerting of the wordes and meanyng of the authors of the Admonition For whereas they saye that the name of Erle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are Antichristian when they are giuen to the ministers of the Churche whose calling wil not agree with such titles he concludeth simply that they saye they be altogether vnlawfull and simply antichristian as if I should reason that it is not meete that the Queenes Maiestie should preache or minister the Sacramentes therefore it is not meete that there shoulde be any preachyng or Ministring of the Sacramentes Nowe letting passe all your hard wordes and vnbrotherly speaches with your vncharitable prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office than you haue had in prouing the name Io. Whitgifte I sée no cause why he that is prelate of the garter maye not also sufficiently discharge his duetie in watching ouer the soule for I thinke the garter dothe not require such continuall or great attendance Those that are appointed to watche ouer y e soule are not exempted from bodily seruice to their Prince excepte you will take from the Prince not onely authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters as you haue done but ouer Ecclesiasticall persons also as by this and such other lyke assertions you séeme to doe ▪ But here of more in place I peruert not the wordes of the Admonition as appeareth by their manifest wordes what their meaning is God knoweth But how little authoritie these offices should haue if your plat forme were framed shall be declared when I come to your seigniorie neyther the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince that detesteth Antichrist can be called Antichristian vpon whom soeuer they be bestowed Wherevnto this your example tendeth of the Quéenes Maiestie wise men may easily coniecture It smelleth of that Papisticall cauillation Scilicet that we giue to hir Maiestie authoritie to preach and to administer the sacramentes bycause we acknowledge hir lawfull authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes I pray God my prognostications be not to true the more I consider of your booke the more I am driuen to suspect it My hard speaches be within the bondes of modestie but yours may better beséeme the order you talke of then a man of your profession Chap. 2. the. 43. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. Lordes Grace Lordbishop honor c. be names of reuerence teachyng vs to acknowledge our duetie towardes our superiours and their authoritie ouer vs. And it is much more to be reprehended not to giue honor to whom honor is due then to receyue honor when it is due You maye and you please in verye auncient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian great learned fathers see as honorable and reuerent titles giuen vnto Byshops as these be And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles not ambitiously soughte for but orderly and lawfully giuen according to the condition and state of the place wherin a man is But it is Antichristian that is proude presumptuous disdainfull arrogant and contemptuous to refuse to giue to euery one that name and title that by law ciuilitie and duetie of vs is required and expresseth our reuerence duetie and obedience You would speake as much of names of honor and reuerence in other persons if you durste be so bolde wyth them as you thinke you may be with some Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayde to this The offices of Archbishops c are not strange or vnheard of in Christes Church and of superioritie among the Cleargie Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 68. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Nowe it followeth to proue that the offices signifyed by these names are not straunge and vnheard of in Christes Churche neyther yet plainly in Gods worde forbidden that they are not to be remoued but as most necessarie to be reteined It is without all doubte that both these names and offices haue Antiquitie of the offices bene in Christes Church long before Nicene Councell and that they haue had in the same continuance euen to this daye as partlye if may be gathered by that which I haue spokē before and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Councell of Nyce to this instant houre and therefore they little consydered what they writte when they set it downe that these names and offices were straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning auncient writers neuer read them that is the cause of such vnlearned assertions T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1. And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the Archbyshop he blew the trumpet before the victorie heere in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they write that they are contemners of auncient writers and that they neuer read them and that they are vnlearned which denie these things which he affirmeth Well what we reade howe vnlearned we are is not the matter whiche we striue for the iudgemente thereof is first with God ▪ then with the Churches and in their iudgementes we are content to reste But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally read then the truth of oure cause shall more appeare that is maynteined with so small learnyng and reading agaynst men of such profound knowledge great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not tooidle we should not be hable to reade as much as you which may haue leysure to reade a good long writer or euer you can ryde onely to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distant one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche daungerous opinions of Papistrie and anabaptisme as you beare men in hand we doe why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputation where you may both winne
your spurres and suche detestable opinions with the ignoraunce of the authors may be displayed vnto the whole world But let vs heare what is sayde Io. Whitgifte I haue sayd nothing of the authors of the Admonition which their owne doings proueth not to be true and if you will also take it vnto your selfe who can let you If notwithstanding al my iourneys to see and salute my houses and lyuings I be founde to discharge my duetie there and also to haue read as much as you that haue suche leysure it is at the least an argument that I am not idle I loue not to boast of my self Your too too arrogante and contemptuous speaches prouoke me further than modestie requireth I am not ashamed of my readyng and yet I will make no comparisons I haue sundrie times both priuately and publikely as I am able to proue by sufficient Conference offered hath bene refused testimonies and you cannot denie offered you conference by writing of these matters I haue earnestly moued you vnto it and you haue alwayes refused it This had bene a quiet and the best and most assured way for litera scripta manet That whiche is set downe in writing remaineth Howbeit I refuse no way that shall be thought conuenient to the Magistate neyther am I afrayde of your stoute bragges for I knowe what substance is in you but yet by the way this may be noted what you bunt after and séeke for when you refuse priuate conference by writing offered vnto you and cry out for publike disputation scilicet popularem laudem popular praise But therein do you follow the vaine bragges of other sectaries c. Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 69. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. Cyprianus Lib. 1. Epist. 3. ad Cornelium speaking of the office of an Archbyshop Of the office of an Archbishop sayth on this sort Neque enim aliunde haereses obortae sunt aut na ta schismata quà m inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos ad tempus iudex vice Christi cogitatur cui si secundum magisteria diuina obtemperaret fraternitas vniuersa nemo aduersus sacerdotum collegium quicquam moueret Neyther haue heresies or schismes rysen of any other occasion than of that that the Priest of God is not obeyed neyther one Priest for the tyme in the Churche and one Iudge for the time in the steade of Christ thought vpon to vvhom if the vvhole brotherhoode vvoulde be obedient according to Gods teaching no man vvould moue any thing agaynst the Colledge of Priests Cornelius beeing Bishop of Rome and hauing excommunicated Cyprian expounded certayne notorious wicked men and afterwarde beeing threatned and ill vsed at their handes beganne to faynte and to be weerie of his office Cyprian hearing thereof wrote comfortably vnto him and willed him in any wise to proceede she wing further what sects and schismes ensueth in any Prouince or Diocesse whereas the Bishops authoritie is despised For in these wordes he speaketh not of the vsurped authoritie of the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches but agaynst the insolencie of some whiche despising their Metropolitane or Archebishop did with their factiousnesse trouble the Churche For he woulde haue an Archebishop in euery Prouince whiche shoulde beare the chiefe rule ouer the rest of the Cleargie and so doe the godlyest and best learned expounde Cyprian The same Cyprian writing to one Florentius Pupianus speaking Auhoritie of Archbishops in his owne behalfe beeing Bishop of Carthage sayth on this sorte Vnde schismata haereses obortae sunt oriuntur nisi dum Episcopus qui vnus est ecclesiae praeest superba quorundam praesumptione contemnitur homo dignatione Dei honoratus ab hominibus indignis iudicatur From vvhence haue heresies and schismes sprong heeretofore and vvhereof spring they novve but that the Bishop vvhiche is one and gouerneth the Churche by the presumpiuous disdayne of certayne is despised and a man preferred by Gods allovvance is examined and iudged by vnvvorthy men For it is the chiefe and principall office of an Archbishop to keepe vnitie in the Churche to compounde contentions to redresse heresies schismes factions to see that Bishops and all other of the Cleargie whiche be vnder him doe their duetie c. T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 2. 3. Cyprian sayth he speaking of the office of an Archebishop c. (*) This is rather to make sporte than to confute Unlesse good Reader thou wilte first beleeue that Cyprian speaketh of an Archebishop and haste before concerned a strong imagination of it M. Doctor can proue nothing Aristotle sayth ▪ that vncumming paynters write the names of the beastes whiche they paynt in their tables for bicause otherwise it could not be knowne what they paynt So M. Doctor mistrusting that the Archebishop will not be knowne by his description writeth first the name of that he will paynt out This is it which we striue about whereof the controuersie is and this M. Doctor taketh for graunted He accuseth the authors of the Admonition for faulting in the petition of the principle or desiring to haue that graunted which is denied and yet I am sure that in the whole Admonition there is not suche a grosse petition as this is Where or in what words dothe S. Cyprian speake of the office of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte It is the chiefe and principall office of the Archebishop to prouide that peace and The principall office of an archbishop vnitie be kepte in the Churche to suppresse schismes and heresies c. This dothe Cyprian in this place signifie in playne words That he meaneth of an Archbishop and Metropolitane though he expresse not the name it is euident by his words for in the first place he speaketh of Cornelius then Bishop of Rome who had gouernment ouer that whole Prouince And in the secōd place he speaketh of him selfe who had a very ample and large iurisdiction For béeing Cyprian a Metropolitane Bishop of Carthage he had the charge ouersight of the Churches in Affrike in Numidia and in both the Mauritanies as he him selfe doth testifie lib. 4. Epist. 8 ▪ And as I haue before shewed out of Gregorie Nazianzene he did not onely rule the Churche of Carthage but also of Affrike of Spayne and almoste of the whole East Cap. 2. diui 25 partes for the whiche cause Illyricus as I also sayde before dothe call him Metropolitane And therfore I haue truely affirmed that in those places he speaketh of the office of a Metropolitane or Archbishop neyther is this a petition of the principle but a true principle but it is straunge to sée howe you forget your selfe for afterwards in the. 95. page of your booke you acknowledge that Cyprian was a Metropolitane Pag. 95. sec. 2. Bishop which sufficiently iustifieth my second place out of Cyprian Chap. 3. the.
in Pontus Bithinia Lib. 1. Tom. 2. And what other office then those hath the Archbishop Therfore though the name of Archbishop was not among the Apostles yet was his office function And notwithstanding that part of the office of the Apostles is ceased which consisted in planting founding of Churches throughout y e world yet this part of gouernment direction of Churches remaineth still and is committed to Byshops Therefore saith Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephe. Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Ambro. in 4. Ephe. bicause Bishops do succeede them in preaching the word gouerning y e church Now if I shal also proue by good authoritie that among the Apostles themselues Superioritie among the Apostles and in their tymes there was one chiefe though he were not called Archbishop then I suppose that it will not seeme straunge vnto you that in this state of the Church it should be cōuenient to haue the like in euery Prouince or Diocesse Ierome in his first Ierom. aduers. Ioni lib. 1. booke aduersus Iouinianum sayth thus Yet among the twelue one is chosen that a head being appoynted occasion of schisme might be remoued And least ye should wipe this away with your accustomed deprauing of the Authour I will ioyne vnto him the testimonie of M. Caluine in his Institutions Cap. 8. who writeth thus That the twelue Caluine Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no marueyle for nature requireth it and the disposition of man will so haue it that in euerie companie although they be all equall in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whome the rest may be directed There is no court without a Consull no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a president no societie without a master M. Bucer likewise in his booke De regno Christi hath these wordes Now we see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from Bucer the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy Ghost that among the Ministers to whome especially the gouernment of the Church is committed one should haue the chiefe eare both of the Churches and whole ministerie and that he shoulde go before all other in that care and diligence for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernors of Churches c. Againe vpon the. 4. to the Ephe. he sayth as before is alledged Paule in the Acts called the same men Bishops Ministers whē he called for the Idem Ministers of Ephesus to Miletum yet bicause one among them did rule and had the chief eare of the Church the name of a Bishop did properly belong vnto him Neither was his age alwayes considered so that he were vertuous and learned as we haue an example in Timothie being a yong man Thus then you sée that euen amongst the Apostles themselues and in the Churches in their tymes there were some that had the chiefe authoritie ouer the rest and to this ende especially that schismes and contentions might be compounded and the rest might be directed whiche are the chiefe partes of the Archbishops office and therefore all this that you haue here sayde falleth flat to the ground And yet still I do affirme that if it had not béene so in the Apostles time yet might it haue bene both lawfully and necessarily at other tymes Chap. 3. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 1. At Antioch there rose a great daūgerous heresie that had in a maner infected al the Churches which shaked the very foūdation of the saluation of gods childē that was whether faith were sufficient to iustifie without circūcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What do they now Do they ordein some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one chief to whō they will referre the coutrouersie or vpon whō they wil depend Nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controuersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose than S. Paule which was amongst them Why do they send abrode for remedie when they had it at home Why with great charges and long iourneyes which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the doore what do they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the Churches of the Uniuersities of London to desire their help in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or mind of some one It must needes be answered with S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the Church and yet there were the Apostles whereof euerie one was better able both sharpely to see and to iudge incorruptly without affection than any Archbishop that euer was If therefore in so great aboundance and ouerflowing of the giftes of God and in that tyme when as controuersyes might haue beene referred without daunger of error vnto one onely this ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the giftes are lesse and the daunger of error more to make an Archbishop for the deciding of controuersyes and auoyding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to which soeuer of the Apostles the controuersie had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue giuen a true sentence of it Io. Whitgifte It was tolde you before that an Archbishop of himselfe alone doth not take vpon Supr diui 〈◊〉 him to determin matters of doctrine in controuersie But if any such contention arise either he determineth the matter according to the law rule alreadie by the Church established or else with the consent of the Prince doth he set an order in the same by a prouinciall and lawfull Synode in the which he is the chiefe as some one of the Apostles were in such like assemblies according to that which I haue before declared therfore all this speach might well haue bene spared Your argument also is faultie in two respectes first it is Ab authoritate negatiuè or à non facto ad non ius which is good Neque in diuinis neque in humanis neyther in diuine nor in humane matters Secondly you go about to conclude an vniuersall doctrine of one particular and singular example which at no time nor in any matter is tollerable Moreouer it rather iustifyeth my assertion for it euidently proueth that euerie The example of T. C. is rather against him than for him Parish within it selfe hath not absolute authoritie to ende controuersies but that it behoueth them in such weightie matters to resort to the chiefe Church as they now did to Ierusalem This example therefore if you well consider it is directly against you neither doth it in any respect proue that there was then no chiefe gouernour or guide of the
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
Churche to the which the whole realme hath consented Can. apost 33. The. 33. Canon of the Apostles quoted in the margent is this Episcopos singularum gentium scire conuenit quis inter eos primus babeatur quem velut existiment c. It behoueth the Bishops of euery prouince to know who is chiefe among thē whom they must esteeme as their head and do nothing without his knowledge saue such things only as pertayne to their owne parish and villages which are vnder it neyther shall he do any thing without the knowledge of all For so shall vnitie be kept and God shall be glorified through Christe in the holy Ghost What haue you gotten by this Canon you see here manifestly that in euery prouince or nation there must be one chiefe Bishop that is Archbishop to whom the rest muste submitte themselues and do nothing without his knowledge This is asmuch as I require And if this Canon was made by the Apostles wherof you seeme not to doubte then is the name and authoritie of an Archbishop of greater antiquitie than you would gladly haue it and the reason and saying of S. Ierome most true Both of this Canon and of the Canon of the councell of Antioch confirming it I haue spoken before Your Passim in the margent if it be meant of such like plac s as this I graunt it but if of any other popular or Aristocraticall state and kinde of gouernment or to the improuing of the office and authoritie of an Archbishop it will fall out to be nusquam You say that it appeareth in the decretalls themselues that this kinde of gouernment hath bene the wellspryng of most horrible schisme Shew one place why are you not ashamed to vtter manifest vntruthes Shew one sentence there tending to that ende I haue recited some Canons out of that place and I haue shewed the entent of Gratian both in them and in the rest They all signifie that an Archbyshop may not do any thing of his owne authoritie without the consent of the other Byshops which no man denieth and this is the whole scope of that question Our peace is in truth and due obedience we haue the true doctrine of the worde of God and the right administration of the Sacramentes and therefore to make contention in this Church and to disturbe the quietnes and peate cannot be but mere schismaticall I will say no worse Zuinglius in his Ecclesiastes sayth that the Anabaptistes went aboute to defende their contentions then after the same manner that you do yours nowe But I answere you as he answered them your contention is not agaynst Infidels Papists and such like but agaynst the faythfull agaynst the true professors of the Gospell and in the Church of Christe and therefore as it is of it selfe wicked so is it the cause of contempt disobedience and much other vngodlinesse And the two flintstones may be in such time and place striken togither that the sparkes of fire which commeth from them may consume and burne the whole citie and countrie too And surely he is but a mad man that will smite fire to light a candle to sée by at noone day when the sunne shineth most clearely Chap. 3. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. If therefore superioritie and domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men frō schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to keepe them togither in errour and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted than many this power of one bringeth as great incōmoditie in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Io. Whitgifte This is as though you should saye that if a Monarchie be an excellent kynde of gouernment and in déede the best when the lawes rule and not man as Aristotle sayth then also is it the worste when affection ruleth and not the lawe which is true for that is the worst state of gouernment which is opposed to the beste But if you will therefore conclude that a Monarchie is not the best state your argument hath no reason in it euen so is it in the gouernment of the Churche if the chéefe gouernour thereof should follow his owne appetite and be ruled by his priuate affections but it is farre otherwise when he ruleth according to the lawes wherevnto he himselfe is subiect Chap. 3. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag 81. Sect. 4. Morouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnitie in the Church of England that one Archbishop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall Churche there should be one Archbishop or Byshop ouer all and the like necessitie of the byshop ouer A popish reason all Christendome as of the byshop of all England vnlesse peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall Church than ouer the Church of England for as much as it is more necessarie that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersall Church than in the particular church of England Io. Whitgifte This is the reason of the Papistes for the Popes supremacie and you haue borowed The reasons serue not for the Pope that serue for the Archbishop Caluine it from them Wherefore I will answere you as M. Caluine answereth them in his Institutions Cap. 8. Sect. 95. That which is profitable in one nation cannot by any reason be extended to the whole worlde for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation And a little after it is euen as though a man should affirme that the whole world may be gouerned by one King bycause one fielde or towne hath but one ruler or Mayster And agayne that which is of force among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole worlde to the gouernment whereof no one man is sufficient M. Nowell also answereth Dorman making the same reason that you doe in these M. Nowell lib. 3. fol. 321. woordes To your third question sayeth he speaking to Dorman the lewdest of all why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene the Pope and the reste of the Byshops of Christendome that is betweene the Archbishop and the other Bishops of the prouince I answere you might as well aske why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene one Emperour of all the worlde and all the Princes of the worlde to be vnder him that is betweene the King of one realme and his Lordes vnder him The reason that the same proportion can not be kept is first bycause there is no lyke proportion at all betweene the abilitie of mans witte and power being but weake to gouerne one prouince and his abilitie to gouerne the whole Churche and all Churches throughout the worlde which no one man can haue knowledge of much lesse can haue abilitie to rule them Secondly you can bring no
Bishop be ouer one diocesse one rchbishop ouer one Prouince Wherfore I conclude thus It is necessary y t among the cler ie some should be in authoritie ouer the rest and therfore there may be both Archbishops Bishops but I know you wil answer y t there may be gouernment without these degrées then say I vnto you againe stand not so much in your owne c ceyt this order is most auncient in the Church it is confirmed by the best and noblest Councels it is allowed by the best learned fathers it hath the pattern from the practise of the Apostles a l whiche hath bin shewed before it is most méet for this state and kingdome and therfore be no wilful in a new deuise the triall wherof was neuer as yet the maner wherof is vnknown to your selfe and the end no doubt mere confusion Your welfauoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed cōtempt I omit here as I doe in other places Chap. 3. the. 41. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3. The moste therfore that he can conclude of this for the ministerie is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and hereby he can 1. of proue that ther should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernours vnlesse he wyl say peraduenture that as there are vnder magistrates and a kyng aboue them all so there shoulde be vnder ministers and one minister aboue all * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speache of the kinde of gouernment wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other good common wealthes wherin many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if bicause there is one kyng in a lande aboue all he wil conclude there should be one Archbishop ouer all I say as I haue sayd that it is not against any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the worlde and yet I thinke M. Doctor wyll not say that there maye be one Archebishop ouer all the worlde Io. Whitgifte Why there ought to be superioritie among ministers as well as other The gouernmente of the churche in a Christi n cōmon wealth oughte to bee according to the forme ther in vsed Yes I wil cōclude that ther ought to be degrées of superioritie amōg y e ministers also bicause they labour of imperfections as wel as other mē do especally of pride arrogancie vainglorie which ingender schismes here 's es contentions as the examples of all times and ages euen from the Apostles to this time declare I am persuaded y t the externall gouernment of the church vnder a christiā Magistrate must be according to the kinde forme of the gouernment vsed in the cōmon wealth else how can you make the Prince supreme gouernour of all states causes ecclesiastical wil you so deuide the gouernment of y e Churche from the gouernment of the cōmon wealth that the one being a monarchie the other must be a Democratie or an Aristocratie this were to deuide one realme into two and to spoyls the Prince of the one halfe of hir iurisdiction and authoritie If you will therefore haue the Quéene of Englande rule as Monarche ouer all hir dominions then muste you also giue her leaue to vse one kinde and forme of gouernment in all and euery parte of the same and so to gouerne the Church in Ecclesiasticall affaires as she doth the common wealth in ciuile But you say that I must remember that it is not necessarie in a common welth that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of gouernment should be one ouer all I say that you must remember that in this cōmon wealth it is necessarie y t one shuld be ouer al except you wil trāsform aswel y e state of y e kingdom as you would of y e church which is not vnlike to be your meaning for not long after you adde that the common wealth must be stamed a cording to y e church as the hangyngs to the house the gouernmēt therof w t her gouernment c. not contrary meaning y t the gouernmēt of the cōmon wealth ought not to be monarchical but either democratical or Aristocratical bicause as you say the gouernment of the Church ought to be such What this in time wil bréed in this common wealth especially when it cōmeth to the vnderstanding of the people who naturally are so desirous of innouations I referre it to the iudgement of those that can and ought best to consider it The vnlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being ouer all the world of one archbishop being ouer all the world I haue shewed before they be most vnlike yet this is but a friuolous vaine supposition M. Caluin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect 96. doth say that it is absurdissimum most absurd Chap. 3. the 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that ther is an equalitie of al ministers of Equalitie among ministers touching minist rie gods word quoad ministeriū touching the ministerie for they haue allike power to preach the word to minister the sacraments that is to say the word preached or the sacramēts ministred is as effectual in one in respect of the ministerie as it is in an other But quoad ordinem politiam touching order gouernment ther always hath bin must be degrees and superioritie among them For the churche of God is not a cōfused congregation but ruled directed aswel by discipline policie in matters of regimēt as by the word of God in matters of faith T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe M. Doctor cōmeth to his olde hole where he would fayn hide himself and with him all the ambition tyrannie excesse of authorttie which is ioyned with these functions of Archebishop and bishop as they are now vsed this his hole is that al the ministers are equall with bishops Archbishops as touching the ministerie o the word sacramentes but not as touching policie gouernment The Papists vse the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be sarre from Papistrie distinction for the maintenance of the Popes tyrannie and ambition and other their hierarchie M. Doctor hath put out the mark concealed the name of the Papists so with a little change of wordes as it were with certayn newe colours he would deceyue vs. For the Papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge Prieste hathe as greate authoritie to sacrifyce and offer for the quycke and the deade and to minister the Sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the Bishoppe is aboue a Prieste the Archebishoppe aboue a bishop and the Pope aboue them all But I haue (b) You haue no yet declared 〈◊〉
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth the high priesthood to be nothing else but a byshopryke and in the seuenth chapter of that booke and so forth diuers tymes you shall haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken for a Bishop as speaking of the councell of Nice he sayth that there was 318. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 high priests Now I thinke you wil not say there were 318. Archbishops if you do you are confuted by all Ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I read which speaking of them calleth them Byshops Io. Whitgifte This name Priest is vsuallly applied to the minister of the Gospell in all Histories fathers and wryters of antiquitie And the most of the latest writers do vse it and make no great serupulositie in it neyther doth the name Priest burie our Sauiour Christe as long as it is vsed for a minister of the Gospell neyther is there any daunger in it at all as long as the office is lawfull Not onely Cyrill vseth this name high Priest but Tertull. also in his booke De Tertull. Baptismo where he sayeth that Episcopus is summus sacerdos The Bishop is the hie Prieste and in lyke manner Theodorete as you here say and yet none of them ment to derogate any thing from the office of Christe I told you before how names proper to Christe may be also attributed to men this beyng graunted I haue as much as I desire for as the Bishop is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the respect of other Priestes that be inferiour vnto him so is the chiefe Bishop called Archiepiscopus in respect of other Bishops that be gouerned and directed by him And as among the ministers there is one chéefe which is called a Bishop so among the Bishops there is one chéefe also that is called an Archbishop and this is that ordo that Augustine speaketh of as I haue sayd in my Answere to the Admoni ion in the woordes of M. Foxe Chap. 3. the. 65. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect 2. Theodoretus li. 5. ca. 28. wryteth that Chrysostome beyng the Bishop Theodoret of Chrysostome of Constantinople did not onely rule that Churche but the Churches also in Thracia in Asia and in Pontus T. C. Pag. 88. Sect 4. Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia Pontus and he sayeth it out of Theodorete But herein it may appeare that either M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying writers and that in the poynts which lie in controuersie (*) Or els you plucke your self by the nose or els he hath taken his stuffe of certaine at the second hand without any examination of it at all For here he hath set downe in steade of had care of the churches of Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is (a) The wordes of Theodoret clipped 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorete in Greeke nor in Latine And what is this to proue an Archbishop that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches thorough christendome and to shewe that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by writing or by visiting them (b) What scrip ture expresseth these conditions and cautions ▪ if the necessitie so require and it is thought good by the churches and leaue obteyned of the place where he is minister vpon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After this sort * As it ap peareth by diuerse epistles of his S. Cyprian being in Afrike had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After this sorte also was Ireneus Bishop of Lions sent by the french Churches vnto the churches in (c) Vntrue Phrygia and after this sorte haue M. Caluine and M. Bez bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the Churches of Fraunce Euseb. li. 5. cap. 3. 4. Io. Whitgifte It shall appeare God willing whether M. Doctors memory or yours be worse The falsifying of Theodoret returned vpon the Replier whether he hath an euill conscience in falsifying writers or you in slaundering of him whether he taketh his stuffe at the second hand or you rather that haue borrowed of other mē collections almost whatsoeuer you haue heaped togither in your booke All this I say shall appeare euen to trie your corrupt vntrue dealing in this place and certainely I cannot but maruell what affection hath so gotten the vpper hand of you that it prouoketh you to such outrage us speaches in a matter so manifestly counterfet If you haue not séene the Author I will ascribe it to negligent ignorāce but if you haue séene him I cannot ascribe it to any other thing than to vnsha efast malice The whole storie as it is in Theodoret is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iohn the great hauing receyued the sterne of the Church reproued the iniuries of certaine boldly and counsayled the king and the Queene things c uenient and exhorted the Priest o walke according to the lawes appoynted But such as were not afrayde to breake them he suffered not to come to the table saying it was not meete that those should enioye the honour of Priestes which would not follow the conuersation of true Priestes And this care 〈◊〉 vsed not only ouer that citie but also ouer whole Thracia which cōteyneth six prouinces and ouer all Asia which is gouerned vnder eleuen rulers and moreouer he gouerned the Church of Pontus with these lawes in which coūtrie are as many rulers as in Asia First he sayth that Chrysostome tooke the stern or gouernmēt of the Church then that he did freely reprehend vice Thirdly that he commaunded the Priests to liue according to the lawes Fourthly that he did excommunicate and depriue of their priestly honour such as durst transgresse Is not this to rule what Archbishop in England doth execute greater iurisdiction Then it followeth immediatly in Theodor. and vvith this care he did prouide for or embrace not only his citie but the Churches of Thracia c. Where it is to be noted that Theodorete sayth with this care c. meaning that as he had the gouernment of the Church of Cōstantinople and did there reprehend vice cōmaunded the Priests to liue according to the lawes excōmunicate them that did not and put them from their office so did he also in the Churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus Theodoretes words be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. and you haue craftely left out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you might the rather cloke Theodoretes plaine meaning Besides this Theodoret sayth in playne woordes that he gouerned
error Theodorete therefore meaneth heresie he meaneth not hypocrisie there was not one heretike in all his Bishoprike he doth not say one hypocrite or euill man so that you are farre wyde and do Theodorete double iniurie for you do both slaunder him and misconstrue him Chap. 3. the. 68. Diuision T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 3. Nowe that it may appeare what great likelihoode there is betwene this Theodoret and our Lorde Bishops and Archbishops it is to be considered which he writeth of himselfe in the Epistle vnto Leo that is that he hauing beene 26. yeares Bishop was knowne of all those that dwelt in those partes that he had neuer house of his owne nor fielde nor halfepenn e not so much as a place to be buryed in but had willingly contented himselfe with a poore estate be yke he had a verie leene Archbishoprike and if the fatte morsels of our Bishoprikes and Archbishoprikes were taken and employed to their vses of maintenance of the poore and of the Ministers and of the Uniuersities whiche are the seede of the ministerie I thinke the heate of the disputation and contention for Archbishops and Byshops woulde be well cooled Io. Whitgifte We speak of the office and authoritie not of the liuing to the spoile of the which Comparison made in office not in riches you and most of your fautors haue more respect than you haue to the office thoughe you pretende the contrarie and yet it followeth not but that Theodorete had lyuing sufficient and might haue béene more welthie but as it séemeth he professed voluntary pouertie of purpose for he gaue away that also whiche was left vnto him of his parents as he in that Epistle testifyeth saying Sed sponte electam amplexus sum paupertatem but I imbraced pouertie which I chose willingly His Bishoprike might be of large reuenues and yet he poore séeing that he had chosen and professed pouertie But if Bishops be better nowe prouided for than they were then it is their partes to be thankefull vnto God and the Prince for it and to vse it well It is not your dutie to enuie their prosperitie bicause you are not in case your selfe Chap. 3. the. 69. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. But what shall I neede to vse such proofes in a matter so plaine and euident to all such as haue read any thing of antiquitie The best learned men of our dayes and diligentest preferrers of the Gospell of Christ do with one consent one or two of the latest writers excepted acknowledge and confesse that this distinction of degrees and superioritie in the gouernment of the Church is a thing most conuenient and necessarie T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 4. Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath beene able to ake togither out of the olde fathers which he sayth are so plaine in this matter and yet can shew nothing to the purpose Heare also what he sayth out of the writers of our age all which he sayth except one or two are of hys iudgement and allow well of this distinction of degrees Io. Whitgifte Well what I haue raked togither and howe you haue carted these rakings away I commit to the iudgement of the learned These raking termes in my opinion are not séemely in him that would séeme so much to iustifie himselfe and to condemne other of immodestie Chap. 3. the. 70. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Caluine in his Institutions sayth on this sort that euery prouince Caluin Cap. 8. Sect. 54. had among their Bishops an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did appoynt Patriarches vvhich should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbishops it vvas for the preseruation of discipline Therfore for this cause especially vvere those degrees appoynted that if any thing shoulde happen in any particular Church vvhich could not there be decided it might be remoued to a prouinciall Synode If the greatnesse or difficultie of the cause required greater consultation then vvas there added Patriarches togither with the Synodes from vvhom there vvas no appeale but vnto a general Coūcel ▪ This kind of gouernment some called Hierarchiam an improper name and not vsed in the scriptures for the spirit of God vvil not haue vs to dreame of dominion and rule in the gouernment of the Church But if omitting the name vve shall consider the thing it selfe vve shall finde that these olde Byshops did not frame any other kinde of gouernment in the Church frō that vvhich the Lorde hath prescribed in his vvorde Caluine here mislyketh this name Hierarchia but he alloweth the names and authoritie of Patriarches and Archbishops and thinketh the gouernment of the Church then vsed not to differ from that which God in his worde prescribeth T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. vlt. Pag. 90. Sect. 1. 2. M. Caluine first is cyted to proue those offices of Archbishop Primate Patriarch The names whereof he cannot abyde and as for him he approueth onely that there should be some which when difficult causes arise which cannot be ended in the particular Churches might referre the matters to Synodes and prouinciall Councelles and which might do the offices whiche I haue spoken of before of gathering voyces c. But that he liketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the Bishops or Archbishops which we haue nowe it may appeare plainly ynough both in that place when as he will haue his wordes drawen to no other than the olde Bishops shutting out thereby the Bishops that now are as also in other places and namely vpon the Philippians where reasoning agaynst Phil. 1. this distinction betwene Pastor and Bishop and shewing that giuing the name of Bishop to one man onely in a church was the occasion why he afterwarde vsurped do ination ouer the rest he sayth after this sort In deede I graunt sayth he as the dispositions and maners of men are order cannot stande amongst the ministers of the worde vnlesse one be ouer the rest I meane saith he of euerie seuerall and singular bodie not of a whole prouince much lesse of the whole worlde Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins Archbishop you must not haue him neither ouer a Prouince nor Diocesse but onely ouer one singular and particular congregation how much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter agaynst the storme than M. Caluins which will not suffer you by any meanes to couer your selfe vnder his winges but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine affirmeth directly that euery prouince among their Bishops had Caluine acknowledgeth the names nd the end of thē and alloweth the kinde of gouernment an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did a ppoynt Patriarkes he sayeth that these degrées were appoynted for the preseruation of discipline and by calling of Synodes to ende controuersies that arise in particular Churches he well lyketh this
late vnto the booke put foorth in the 〈◊〉 ▪ and vnder the credite of the Bishop of Sarisburie wherein I will say nothing of those 〈◊〉 sharpe w rds which are gyuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the 〈◊〉 why h 〈◊〉 archebishops and archedeacons nouices partly in the ende when he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 children and the doctrine of (*) A shameless vn kedlye the Gospell wantonnesse c. If he had ly 〈◊〉 learning and grauittie and otherwyse good desertes of the Churche in defending the 〈◊〉 thereof agaynst the Papistes we could haue easily borne it at his hands nowe he is dead and 〈◊〉 vp 〈◊〉 peace 〈◊〉 were agaynst all humanitie to digge or to breake vp hys graue onely I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 t 〈◊〉 the consideration of the Reader vpon those things whiche are alleaged to iudge whether it or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 which is confirmed by so graue testimonies of the aun worke of God Io. Whitgifte If you doubt whether the Bishop of Sarisbury were the author of that half shéete of paper or no you may sée his owne hande writing If you call the words which he vseth there 〈◊〉 and sharpe what shall we thinke of yours we had néede terme them Serpentine or viperous or if there can be any other name that better expresseth such immodest contemptuous and scoffing spéeches Hypocrita quid vides fest 〈…〉 in oculo fratris tui c But what are these biting and sharpe wordes that he vseth forsoothe that he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth Archbishops and Archedeacons Why. T. C. scometh so muche at the words of the Bishop nouices and in the ende he calleth them children and their doctrine wantonnesse Oh these be byting and sharpe words but wouldest thou knowe good Reader whye T. C. taketh these wordes so gréeuously euen bicause they touche him selfe For the man is of that humilitie and patience that if there be neuer so little signification giuen of any vnskilfulnesse or lacke of learning in him selfe he roareth like a lyon swelleth like the sea for none of that faction can in any case abide to haue their learning touched The malicious nature of that faction and they will not sticke in commending them selues to deface all other yea euen that notable Iuell whose bothe labour and learning they doe enuie and among them selues depraue as I haue heard with mine owne eares and a number more besides For further proofe wherof I doe but referre you to the reporte that by this faction was spred of him after his laste Sermon at Paules crosse bicause he did confirme the doctrine before preached by a famous and learned man touching obedience to the Prince and lawes It was then straunge to me to heare so notable a Bishop so learned a man so stoute a champion of true religion so paynefull a Prelate so vngratefully and spitefully vsed by a sorte of wauering wicked wretched tongues But it is their manner except you please their humor in all things be you neuer so well learned neuer so paynfull so zelous so vertuons all is nothing with them but they will depraue you rayle on you backbite you inuentlyes of you and spred false rumors as though you were the vilest persons in the whole earth And consider whether T. C. be not euen nowe in that vayne for howe maliciously The Bishop maliciously staundered by T. C. doth he slaunder that so Reuerend Bishop saying that he calleth y e doctrine of the Gospell wantonnesse when he speaketh of their childishe and phantasticall deuises excepte all were Gospell that they speake or that commeth from them Pardon me thoughe I speake something earnestly it is in the behalfe of a Iuell that is contemned and defaced by contentious and vngratefull persons If it had pleased God to haue suffered him to liue vnto this day in answering this Replie he should no doubt haue proued his byting and sharpe wordes as they be called to be moste true But séeing that he is at rest and not héere to answere for him selfe though in respecte of him I am farre vnméete to intermedle in his doings yet in respecte of the cause and aduersarie I will be bolde to iustifie his answers Chap. 4. the. 2. Diuision ¶ The Iudgement of that Reuerende father Iohn late Bishop of Sarum auouched by his ovvne hande Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum nomina simul cum Nouitiorum assertio muneribus officijs suis sunt abolenda The first Reason God so loued the Churche that he lefte a perfect paterne orderly c. Eph 4. but there Prima ratio is named neyther Pope nor Archbishop nor Archdeacon The ansvvere of the Bishop of Sarisburie Hovve knovve you that the fourth chapter ad Ephe. is a perfecte patterne Eius solutio ▪ of all ecclesiasticall gouernment vve haue novve neyther Apostles nor The. 4. Eph ▪ no perfect plat forme of all ecclesiasticall gouernment Euangelistes nor Prophetes and yet are they the cheefe in that patterne neyther haue vve there eyther Bishop or Presbyter or Diaconus or Catechista or Lector and yet are these necessarie partes in ecclesiasticall gouernment Therefore that patterne is not perfect to holde for euer neyther vvere there then any publike Churches or Pulpits or Scholes or Vniuersities c. S. Paule nameth neyther Pope nor Archbishop I graunt and the Church is not gouerned by names but by offices Euery Bishop then vvas called Papa and Anacletus that vvas nexte after Peter if there be any weight in his vvords nameth Archbishops T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 1. Unto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alleaged he answereth cleane contrarie to that which M. Doctor sayth that we haue now neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor prophets wherupon he would conclude that that place is no perfect patterne of the ministerie in the Church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it needefull that we should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a tyme so that the wante of those nowe is no cause why the ministeryes there recyted be not sufficient for the accomplishment and full finishing of the churche nor cause why any other ministeries should be added besydes those which are there recyted Io. Whitgifte Not one worde contrarie to any thing that I haue spoken for I tolde you before Tract 4. cap. diuis 1. in what respect it maye be sayde these offices to remayne and in what respect they be ceased there is nowe no planting of Churches nor going throughe the whole In what respect Apostles c. be ceased worlde there is no wryting of newe Gospels no prophecying of thinges to come but there is gouerning of Churches visiting of them reforming of Pastors and dyrecting of them whiche is a portion of the Apostolicall function there is preaching of the Gospell expounding interpreting the Scriptures which be incident to the Euangelist Prophet Agaynst this no learned man
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
you that the Lorde ordeyned that there should be in euery congregation diuers pastors elders or Byshops The place of scripture if there be any had bin soone quoted Or howe proue you that Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church Is it Sathās worke Sathan not the cause of one Byshop in one church that one Church should haue but one pastor This is straunge doctrine and far from an Apostolicall spirite contrary to the practise of the Apostles and of the Church euen from the beginning But séeing you haue so barely set it downe without any kynde of proofe I will passe it ouer by putting you to your proofe But yet tell me dyd Sathan stirre vp Timothie and Titus who were Byshops of one whole diocesse Did he stirre vp the other auncient fathers and godly Bishops of whome I haue spoken Whither will this slaunderous mouth reache whome will this venemous tongue spare if it speake so spitefully of such worthie Pastors Your collection of resistance that hath béene to such superioritie béeing grounded of the place that you neuer sawe nor red is rashe and vnaduised For if you had séene eyther that Epystle or those Canons you woulde or at the least you might haue learned another lesson Archbishops Patriarches c. were allowed by the Councell of Nice the godlyest and the most perfect Councell since the Apostles time that euer was And did Sathan rule there also and preuayle O that Arius were aliue to heare it These steppes whereof you make Sathan the authour and whereby you say the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chayre of pestilence c. haue béene the best and most conuenient kinde of gouernment that euer was in the Church since the Apostles time approued and allowed by the best Councels and the next meanes to haue kept Antichrist out of his seate if in all places they had remayned in theyr full force and authoritie But this I may not passe ouer that you in effect confesse your kinde of gouernment by elders to haue ceased before the Councell of Nice and also one Bishop to haue béene ouer one whole Diocesse before that time in that you say that the childe of perdition was lifted vp by these degrées the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Councell Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 96. Sect. 2. Hauing nowe shewed howe this Lordly estate of the Bishop began and vppon what a rotten grounde it is builded I come to shewe howe farre the Bishops in our tyme are for theyr pompe and outwarde statelinesse degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Io. Whitgifte A man woulde haue thought that you being so great an enimie to those degrées woulde not haue thus concluded vpon so small proofe and the same vtterly vntrue vsing onely for your grounde the Epistle of Pope Zacharie which maketh nothing for your purpose Now let vs sée how farre the Bishops of our tyme are for theyr pompe c. degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Chap. 5. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3. And here I call to remembrance that which was spoken of the poore estate of Basill and Theodorete and if M. Doctour will say as he doth indeede in a certaine place that then was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easily answered that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good Emperours But that shall appeare better by the Canons which were rules giuen for the Bishops to frame themselues by Io. Whitgifte It is for lacke of other examples that you are constreyned to repeate these To the poorenesse of Theodorete I haue answered there may be as poore Bishops now as there was then and there might be as riche Bishops then as there are nowe It is not one or two examples that can proue the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1. In the 4. Councell of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops shoulde haue a little house 14. Canon ▪ it calleth it hospitiolū ▪ 15. Canon neare vnto the Church what is this compared with so many fayre large houses and with the princely Palace of a Bishop And in the same Councell it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of his house after the common sort and that his table and dyet shoulde be poore and that he should get him estimation by faythfulnesse and good conuersation Io. Whitgifte In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Councell Clearkes how learned so euer they be in Gods woorde are willed to get their liuing by some occupation or by husbandrie but I thinke you will not haue them so to do now at this time Wherefore you must cōsider the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in externall benefites if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deale with the ministers of the woorde and if this state and condition be necessary for this time and people why should you enuie it Ritches and fayre houses be no hinderances but helpes if they be vsed accordingly and commonly hypocrisie and pryde lieth hidde vnder the name of pouertie and simplicitie Chap. 5. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 97. Sect. 1. And in another Councell that the Bishops should (a) No suche thing in that place not giue themselues to feastes but be 5. Canon concil Tyronen content with a litle meate Let these Bishops be compared with oures whose chambers shine with gilte whose walles are hanged with clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden with plate whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diuersitie of dishes whose dayly dinners are feastes let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those old Bishops were aliue they would not know eche other For they would thinke that oures were Princes and ours would thinke that they were some hedge Priests not worthie of their acquaintaunce or fellowship Io. Whitgifte If you meane the first Tyronense Concilium there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it nor in the whole Councell The fifth Canon conteyneth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are for it forbiddeth vnder the payne of excōmunication that any beyng a Clearke should leaue of his calling and become a lay man If you meane the seconde Tyronense Concilium I make you the like answere Belike your collector hath deceyued you but what if it were so This onely might be gathered that vnlesse Bishops then had bene welthie there should not haue néeded a decrée against feasting If our Bishops should make the like now it would be thought they did it for sparing And I thinke that and such like Canons méete not onely for Bishops but for all states and degrées of men Riches and costly furniture bée no impediment to a godly man for doing
tyrannicall These be but very slender proofes that the names and offices of Archbyshops Lordbysh c. be plainly forbiddē by the word of God Surely you had thought that no man would haue euer taken paynes to examine your margent T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. vlt. To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew Luke the replie is made before The place of the fourth of the first to the Corinthians is well alleaged for it teacheth a moderate estimation of the ministers and a meane betweene the contempt excessiue estimation neyther can there be any readier way to breed that disorder which was amongst the Corinthians as to say I holde of such a one and I of such a one I of such another than to set vp certayne ministers in so highe titles great shew of worldly honour for so commeth it to passe that the people will saye I will beleue my Lorde and my Lorde Archbishop what soeuer our persone say for they be wise men and learned as we ee it came to passe amongst the Corinthians For the false Apostles because they had a shew outward pompe of speach they caried away the people For although S. Paule sayth that some sayd I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo I of Cephas yet as it appeareth in his fourth chapter they helde one of this braue eloquent teacher and another of that For he translated these speaches vnto him his fellowes by a figure All that rule is tyrannicall which is not lawfull and is more than it ought to be And therefore the place of S. Peter is fitly alleaged whereof also I haue spoken some thing before Io. Whitgifte The Corinthians did not brust out into these factions partes taking in respect of any title or office cōmitted to any of their preachers but it was a partiall affection that they had towardes theyr teachers in preferring them for theyr supposed vertue learning before other of whom they had not conceyued so good an opinion A more liuely example whereof can not be than the dissentiō that is at this day wherein some of your fautors forgetting all modestie do so greatly 〈◊〉 you and your companions that nothing may be heard that is spoken to the contrary nay in comparison all other men be flatterers worldlinges vnlearned doltes asses So do some sorte of men extoll you and contemne other so did the Corinthians extoll magniffe their false Prophets depraue the true preachers Wherefore to take away this partiall affection iudgement the Apostle sayeth Sic nos aestimet homo c. Let a man so esteeme 1. Cor. 4. of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. You will not I am sure acknowledge that at this time among the Corinthians there was any such difference of titles or degrées of superioritie Wherfore you cannot speaking as you thinke say that the Apostle in this place meaneth any such matter But wel you wotte that these affectiōs which I haue spoken of were rife among them and therefore it is most certeyne that the Apostle laboreth for the suppression of them So that the interpretation that I haue giuen of this place in myne Answere is true neyther haue you refelled it The rule that a Bishop hath ouer other ministers in his diocesse is lawfull neither is it such tyrannicall rule as the woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vsed by S. Peter and spoken of before doth signifie that is to rule with oppression and therefore the place is vnaptly alleaged Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 1. I am of Hemingius opinion in this poynt that I thinke this your assertion smelleth of playne Anabaptisme T. C Pag. 99. Sect. 1. You are you say of Hemingius minde thinke that this opinion smelleth of Anabaptisme I haue shewed how you haue depraued corrupted Hemingius and desire you to shewe some better reason of your opinion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will not suftice vs. Io. Whitgifte And I haue shewed how vntruly you haue reported of me Hemingius alloweth superioritie degrées of dignitie among the ministers he condemneth your confused equalitie calleth it Anabaptisticall Moreouer if you well marke the beginninges procedings of the Anabaptistes you shall perceyue that they first began with the ministerie in the selfe same manner and forme that you now do Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect 1. And surely if you had once made an equalitie such as you phansie Anabaptisme feared among the Cleargie it would not be long or you attempted the same among the laitie Let them take heede Tunc tua res agitur c. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say that if we had once obteyned equalitie amongst the Cleargie we would attempt it in the Laitie Deut. 18. In what starre do you see that M. Doctor Moyses sayeth that if a man speake of a thing to come and it come not to passe as he hath spoken that that man is a false Prophet i your prophecie come not to passe you know your iudgement already out of Moyses The Pharesies when our sauiour Christ inueighed against their ambiti accused him that he was no friende to Cesar and went about to discredite him with the ciuill magistrate you shall applie it your selfe you will needes make the Archbyshop c. neyghbours vnto the ciuill magistrates and yet they almost dwell as farre a sunder as Rome and Ierusalem and as Sion and S. Peters Church there so that the house of the Archbishop may be burnte sticke and stone when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the ciuill magistrate Io. Whitgifte In the starre that is in your forehead in the accustomed practises of the Anabaptists Equalitie of ministers wil pull on the equalitie of other estates Pag. 144. Sect. 1. in the places of scripture alleaged by the Admonition for the equalitie of all ministers which very same the Anabaptists do also vse against the ciuil magistrate To be short I sée it in your owne wordes where you say that the gouernment of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the church what kinde of gouernmēt you would haue in the Church who knoweth not I do not take vpon me to prophecie but ex antecedentibus colligo consequentia I gather that we shall haue stormes by the blacke clowdes You are not Christ neyther is your cause like vnto his and therefore you make a very vnequall comparison To whom the name of Pharisie doth most aptly agrée is shewed in my Answere to the Admonition The selfe same reasons ouerthrow the ciuill magistrate that ouerthroweth the Ecclesiasticall And therefore the fire kindled against the one muste néedes be very daungerous for the other Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Admonition In steade of the Seniors in (r) Rom. 12. 8. euery Church the Pope hath brought in and yet we mainteyne the Lordship
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
impossible one thyng should be more impossible than another If I shoulde thus reason I thynke I should put you to some payne But I wyll not drawe the reader to suche thorny and subtyll questions it is inough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one should be more impossible than the other And that it is impossible for one man to be Bishop ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole Dioces I leaue it to be considered of that whych is before sayde in the description of the offyce of a Byshop pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the Bishop in hys Churche Io. Whitgifte In so saying I say but as other learned men haue sayd and especially M. Caluine in the place afterwarde alleaged in my answere and as the practise of the Churche hath béene in the best state and vnder the best Bishops as it may appeare by that which hath béene hitherto spoken Your Philosophicall argument is sone answered without any great payne For to gouerne one Prouince in that maner and forme that is required of an Archbishop is neyther infinite nor impossible But it is great lack of iudgement to thinke that bicause one man can not well gouerne the whole world therfore he can not well gouerne a prouince or dioces I haue shewed the practise of the Churche to be contrarie in the Apostles tyme and since their time Chap. 6. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 101. Sect. 1. As a Prince may rule a whole Realme suche as Fraunce or Englande (*) This is absurdissimum a M. Caluine 〈◊〉 Instit. cap. 8. sect 92. so may he rule the whole worlde by officers and Magistrates appoynted vnderneathe him And there haue beene diu rs Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had Churches and althoughe it be somewhat inconuenient yet I knowe not why they mighte not so haue comming lawfully by them Nowe I woulde gladly heare whether you would say the same of a Bishop and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a prince ouer a lande to proue that a Archbishop may be ouer an whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one Bishop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not saye that there may be a bishop ouer the whole Churche But what better warrant for the one than for the other Agayne (a) If the skye fall c. if the whole Churche be in one prouince or in one realme whiche hathe beene and is (b) Yes surely as the state is nowe not impossible to be agayne if there may be nowe one bishop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one bishop ouer all the Churche so that in trauelling with an Archbishop he hathe brought foorth a Pope Io. Whitgifte The selfe same reason you had before and I answere it nowe as I did then The Supra cap. 3. diuis 31. 32. 33. causes by me there alleaged be sufficient to proue the difference betwixt the gouernment of a Prince and the gouernment of a Bishop And yet no man will denie but that one Prince shall better be able to gouerne one kingdome than the whole world And to affirme that the whole worlde may be conteyned in one Monarchie learned men saye is multis modis absurdissimum In diuers respectes moste absurde I bring the Cal. Inst. cap. 8. Sect. 92. example of a King bicause other writers vse the like examples in the like matter to confute suche vnlikely reasons and namely M. Caluine in the words following That which M. Doctor affirmeth of one bishop ouer one whole prouince and of one Byshop ouer the whole worlde no man will denie A warrant for the one are the examples of Timothie and Titus and the continuall practise of the Churche without contradiction in the best tymes but there is no warrant for the other of any credite or sufficience béeing onely in the moste corrupt tyme of the Churche and contrarie to all former examples and Canons You say if the whole Churche be in one prouince c. I say that if the skie fall you may catche larkes as the common prruerbe is Moreouer if it were possible so to be as nowe it is not then it were no absurditie the Bishop of that Prouince still to remayne Bishop of the same But what moueth you to suche straunge suppositions The replyers if turned vpon him self I might aswell say if the whole Churche were in one Citie or Towne or Parishe as it was in Ierusalem after Christes ascention and one Bishop or Pastor might be ouer that citie or towne or parishe then one Bishop or Pastor shoulde be ouer the The Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince nowe whole Churche and so you likewise in trauelling with a pastor to be in one Churche at the length bring foorth a Pope But doe you not knowe that the Churche of Christ is dispersed throughout the whole worlde and can not nowe be shut vp in one kingdome muche lesse in one prouince excepte you will become Donatistes He that is not wilfully blinde may sée into what streights you are driuen when you are constreyned to vtter suche impossibilities for reasons Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. But he sayth that an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole pro ince generally but in cases exempted and so may doe it more easily But he shoulde haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of Archbishop and bishop to be in all those things whiche other ministers are and that beside those offices he giueth them particular charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preache pray and minister the sacraments in his parishe the office of archebishop and bishop is to doe the same and more too in the whole prouince or dioces And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duetie in his parishe than for an archebyshop or bishop to discharge their dueties in any one parish of their prouince or dioces for they haue in euery parishe more to doe and greater charge than the minister of the parishe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the parishes of their prouinces or dioces Io. Whitgifte I speake of the office of gouernment and so be my words Euery particular parish hath a particular pastor to preache pray and mynister the sacraments The Bishop hath to procure so much as lyeth in him that all things be done in his Dioces according to the lawes orders of the Church The Archbishop hath not only to sée that y e Bishops do their duties but to helpe thē in reforming that which by thēselues they cannot do The office of preaching they exercise where when they sée it most conuenient The whole charge of preaching of gouerning resteth neyther vpon the
Bishop of Smyrna Tertull. de praescript In the Church of Alexandria from the time of S. Marke the ministers had always a Bishop to gouerne them Hiero. ad Euagrium Ignatius who liued in the Apostles tyme doth call a Bishop principem Sacerdotum the prince of Priestes in epist. ad Smyrnenses In Eleutherius is tyme whiche was Anno. 180. when this realme of England Testimonies of the tymes nexte after the Apostles Anno. 180. was fyrst conuerted to Christianitie there was appoynted in the same thrée Archbishops and. 28. Bishops M. Foxe To. 1. pag. 146. Demetrius who liued Anno. 191. was Bishop of Alexandria and of Egypt Euseb. libr. 6. cap. 1. 191. Cyprian who was Anno. 235. being Bishop of Carthage had vnder him Numidia 235. and Mauritania as he himselfe sayeth Lib. 4. Epist. 8. And Gregorie Nazianzene in an oration that he made of Cyprian sayth that he ruled and gouerned not onely the churches of Carthage and Aphrike but of Spayne also and of the whole East churche And for this cause doth Illyricus call him a Metropolitane the which name T. C. also doth giue vnto him in his Replie Pag. 95. sect 2. Dionysius called Alexandrinus who lyued Anno. 250. béeyng Bishop of Alexandria 250. hadde also vnder his iurisdiction all the Churches in Pentapolis as Athanasius testifyeth in a certainepistle Apol. 2. and yet hadde these Churches their proper Bishop as Eusebius dothe witnesse lib. 7. cap. 26. Wherefore the Bishoppe of Alexandria did gouerne them as Archebishop Gregorie béeing Bishop did gouerne all the Churches thorowe Pontus An. 270 270. Eus. lib. 7. cap. 14. Epiphanius li. 2. to 2. haeri 68. maketh mention of one Peter who liued An. 304. whom be calleth Archbishop of Alexandria and declareth that Meletius then Bishop in Egypt 304. was vnder him where also he hath these words Hic enim mos obtinet vt Alexandriae Episcopus totius Aegypti ac Thebaidis Mariotaeque ac Lybiae Ammonicaeque ac Mariotidis ac Pentapolis ecclesiasticam habeat administrationem For this custome hath preuailed that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiasticall gouernment of all Egypt Thebai Mariota Lybia Ammonica Mariotis and Pentapolis And haere 69. he sayth Quotquot enim ecclesiae in Alexandri cat olicae ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt For all the Churches in Alexandria that be Catholike are vnder one Archebishop The same Epiphanius in the same place doth call Meletius Archbishop of Egypt 304. but yet he sayth that he was subiect to the Archbishop of Alexandria And this Meletius liued also Anno. 304. The Councell of Nice An. 330. in the. 4. Canon sayth that the confirmation of Bishops 3 0. doth pertein to the Metropolitane of euery prouince and in the. 6. mention is made of Metropolitanes to be in euery prouince and that sec ndùm antiquum morem according to the olde custome And it is further sayde that the Bishop of Alexandria hath the regiment of Libya and Pentapolis in Egypt In the. 6. 37. Canons of the secōd Councell of Arelat it is decréed that no Bishop may be ordeined without the consent of the Metropolitane nor any thing to be attempted 335. against the great Synode of the Metropolitane The Councell of Antioch in the. 9. Canon willeth y t in euery prouince y e Bishops be subiect to their Metropolitane bishop which hath y e care of the whole prouince c. And in that Canon is this clause also Secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam 344. according to the auncient rule appointed by our forefathers Athanasius was Archbishop of Alexandria and had iurisdiction ouer the rest of the clergie to whom also Mariotes was subiect Atbana apo 2. Amphilochius Metropolitane of Lycaonia gouerned y ◠who le coūtry Theod. lib. 4. ca. 11. Zozomene li. 7. ca. 19. writeth that though there be many cities in Scythia yet they haue but one Bishop Aurelius bishop of Carthage in the councell of Aphrica sayth that he had the ouersight and care of many churches Ambrose li. de dig sacer ca. 5. maketh mētion of Archbishops he himself was a Metropolitane hauing charge and gouernment of many churches as the authors of the Centuries testifie in their fourth Centurie Simeon was Archbishop of Seleucia Zozo lib. 2. cap. 8. he liued about the tyme of the Nicene Councell Basile Metropolitane of Capadocia Zozo lib. 3. cap. 16. In the councel of Constātinople which is one of the. 4. general Councels in the. An. 38 and. 5. Canons this authoritie regimēt of Primates Metropolitanes Archbishops is conteine Which thing also Socrates doth note in the same Councell lib. 5. cap. 8. In the. Counce l of Carthage Canon 12. c. it is euident that in euerie Prouince An. 415. there was a primate In the councell of Chalcedon Flauianus is called Archbishop of Constantinople Dioscorus An. 453. Archbishop of Alexandria Leo Archbishop of Rome and the authorities of these offices and degrées there in diuers pointes specified In the first Canon of the councel of Ephesus it may manifestly be gathered y t all An. 468. other Bishops of y e same Prouince wer then subiect to their Metropolitane Bishop Hierome ad Rusticum Monachū sayth Singuli ecclesiarum Episcopi singuli Archipresbyteri singuli archidiaconi c. I omit his other places ad Lucif ad Titum c. Ambrose in 4 d Ephe. sayth that all orders be in a Bishop bicause he is primus sacerdos hoc est princeps sacerdotum the chief Priest that is Prince of priestes Augustine in his questions in vetas nouum test cap 101. sayth Quid est Episcopus nisi primus presbyter hoc est Summus sacerdos Chrysostome being Archbishop of Cōstantinople did also gouern the Churches in Thracia Asia and Pontus Tbeodo lib. 5. cap. 28 The authors of the Centuries affirme the same and call him Archbishop Cent. 5. cap. 10. Theodorete being bishop of Cyrus had vnder his gouernment 800. Churches as he himselfe t stifieth in his Epistle to Leo. Gennadius Bishop of Constantinople writeth to the Bishop of Rome thus Curet Rufsi libr. 1. cap. 29. sanctitas tua vniuersas tuas custodias tibique subiectos Episcopos Infinite testimonies and examples there are of this sorte and no man that is of any reading can be ignorant but that these degrées of superioritie and this kynd of regiment hath bin in the Churche continually euen from the Apostles tyme. M. Bucer vpon the fourthe to the Ephes. sheweth that these de rees in the churche Bishop Archbishop Metropolitane Primate Patriarke be not onely moste auntient but also necessarie M. Caluine in his Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 52. vpon the place of Hierome in the Epistle ad Euagriu sayth that in the old tyme there was to euery citie apointed acertain region Prouince or Dioces Quae presbyteros indè sumeret velut corpori illius ecclesia accenseretur and that
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
prayers peraduenture you would haue alleaged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications c. which maketh directly agaynst you Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 1. If you meane by prayers inuented by man such prayers as man inuenteth against the worde of God as prayer for the dead prayer vnto saincts such like then it is true that you say But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures whether they be for matters perteyning to the life to come or to this life then you shew your ignorāce for it is manifest that there hath bene alwayes in the Church of Christ a prescript forme of publike prayer as it appeareth in Iustinus Martyr Apol. 2. Pro Christianis other Iustinus Martyr auncient fathers neyther did euer any learned or godly man or reformed Church finde faulte herewith or not greatly cōmende the same except onely the secte of Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himself to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyres testimonie which notwithstanding hath not one worde of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers he sayth in deede the auncient fathers say that there hath bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the Churches and although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easily that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture or that he hath hearde other men say so for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speake for ll the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptized they pray for themselues and for him that is baptized and for all men that they may be meete to learne the truth and to expresse it in their honest conuersation and that they be founde to keepe th mmaundementes that they may atteyne to eternall life but is this to say that there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chiefe poynts vpon the which they conceyued their prayers If you had alleaged this to proue what were the matters or principall poynts that the Primitiue Churche vsed to pray for you had alleaged this to purpose but to alleage it for a proofe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mentioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer which is the asking of our petitions in the name and thorough the intercession of our Sauiour Christ without the which there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that eyther you little know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as much as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the Church let that go this that I haue sayde is to shew that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause which is very seldome in this booke yet then he marreth it in the handling Io. Whitgifte I haue the lesse laboured in this point bicause it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches in all times and so vnlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition Iustinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose for in that he doth rehearse those chiefe poyntes of theyr prayers then vsed it is manifest that they had a prescript order and forme of prayer the which no man can denie that readeth the place I graunt that these wordes prescript forme of prayer are not there to be founde Yet is there a prescript order and forme by him generally described whereby it is more than probable that at that tyme there was vsed a prescript forme of prayer In the 3. Councell Con Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we finde this Canon Let no man vse the formes of prayer which he hath framed to himselfe without conference with brethren that are better learned Whereby it may euidently be gathered that at that time there was a prescript forme of prayer vsed and that it was not lawfull to vse any new forme of priuate prayers except the same were allowed by the brethren But for as much as in this poynt you consent with me and graunt that there may be a prescript forme of prayer I will omitte whatsoeuer I had purposed to haue sayde more in that matter and so I will do also your taunts respecting the matter rather than Lucians Rhetoricke Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop therfore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri c ▪ to be disallowed but he did not first ordeyne a prescript forme of publike prayers he onely added something therevnto As Gloria patri c. to the end of euery psalme And decreed that Psalmes should be song aswell in the night time as in the day time in euery Church but they were song in the Church before and as I haue sayde there was a prescript forme of prayer in Iustinus Martyrs time who was long before Damasus Gregorie added the Letanie onely I muse what you meane to Gregory made the Letanie write so manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 1. You note not here neyther are you able any prayer in the whole Cōmunion booke wherein there is any thing not agreeable to Gods worde we may say as S. Augustine sayth in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine nihil inuenies quod non ista Dominica contineat concludat orati Vnde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis eadem tamen in orando dicere sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere And if thou runnest thorough all the vvordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing vvhich the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne and comprehende therefore vve may in other vvordes speake the same thinges in our prayers but vve may not speake contrarie things T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole booke which is not agreeable to the worde of God I am very loth to enter into this fielde albeit M. Doctor doth thus prouoke me both bycause the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstande that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynt as for that some fewe professoures of the Gospelt being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Io. Whitgifte In so saying I do fullie agrée with such as haue
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
thinges we praye for tende to the glo ie of God who is the authour and giuer of all thinges both eternall and temporal Things that are to be prayed for are of two sortes the o e temporall the other eternall but they both perteyne to the glorie of God though not equally and in lyke manner The wyse man sayeth in the dayes of prosperitie thinke of aduersitie c. Christe Math. 24. forewarning his disciples of the external afflictions and euils which should Prayers be daunger happen as well before the destruction of Ierusalem as the ende of the worlde willeth E cle 11. them to praye before the daunger be present saying Praye that your flight bee not in wynter nor vpon the sabbath and will you not ha e vs to praye for deliueraun e from Math. 24. such perilles and daungers wherevnto we be subiect except they be present shall we not praye to be deliuered from thundering lightening stormeand tempest plague and pestilence and such like except we be in manifest perill and daunger these things beyng in Gods handes to punishe vs with euen in a moment and when we thinke it moste vnlike haue we not sundrie examples of such as haue sodenly perished with thundering and lightening and some sithence the publishing of your booke what scripture The presum tion of the Re plier haue you or authoritie of any learned man to the contrarie wyll you be credited vpyour bare worde against so many graue learned wyse and godly men that ad the penning and allowing of that booke surely that were against all order and reason and it is to great presumption for you with so light and slender reasons to go aboute the ouerthrowe of that which so many godly and learned men haue both liked and allowed except they had allowed that which the scriptures do disalowe Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 3. There was one Mamereus bishop of Vienna which in the tyme of great earthquakes which wer Plat. cap. Leo. in Fraunce instituted certayne supplications which the Grecians and we of them call the Letany which concerned that matter there is no doubt but as other discommodities rose in other countries they lykewyse had prayers accordingly Nowe pope Gregor e either made hymselfe or gathered the su plications that were made against the calamities of euery countrey and made of them a great Letany or supplication as Platina calleth it gaue it to be vsed in all churches which thyng albeit all churches might do for the tyme in respect of the case of the calamitie which the churches suffered yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall that was ordeyned but for a tyme and why all landes should praye to be deliuered from the incommodities that some lande hath vin troubled with Io. Whitgifte As though we were not at all times subiect to these perilles and daungers and as though we ought not by the calamitie of other nations to be moued earnestly to pray against the like which might also happen to vs. It is not to be doubted but that the prayer of the iuste is acceptable to God and that of his mercy he beyng thereby moued doth stay from plaguing vs with earthquakes thundring and lightenyng and such like calamities wherewith he would otherwise punish vs. Truly your reasons be maruelous prophane and they might as well be alleaged The reason vsed agaynst the Letanie is of the same force agaynst the psalmes agaynst any of the Psalmes which all were made at the first vpon some speciall occasion and yet are profitable for euer in all states of the Churche to be vsed Whatsoeuer good and godly prayer in the time of any common miserie and calamitie hath bene inuented the same is at other times profitable to be vsed in the Church bycause the like punishments and plagues are in Gods handes at all times to execute vpon sinners and therefore continually to be prayed agaynst Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 4. The lyke may be sayde of the Gloria patri and the Athanasius Creede it was fyrst brought into the Churche to the inde that men thereby ▪ should make an open profession in the Churche of the diuinitie of the sonne of God agaynst the detestable opinion of Arius and his Disciples wherwith at that tyme maruelously swarmed almost the whole Christendome (*) A weake reason nowe that it hath pleased the Lorde to quench that fyre there is no such cause why these thinges shoulde be in the Church at the least why that Gloria patri should be so often repeated Io. Whitgifte Euen as conuenient now as it was then for it is as necessarie to maynteyne The manifestation and maintenance of truth as necessary as the suppressiō of errours truth and make it knowne as it is to suppresse errours and yet it is not vnknowne that euen in our dayes and in this Churche there haue bene Arians and I praye God there be none still I much suspect the matter not well vnderstanding wherevnto those glances of yours at Gloria patri ▪ and Athanasius Creede do tende Gloria patri besides that it conteyneth a briefe confession of the Trinitie and of the Diuinitie of Gloria patri Iesus Christe it is a magnifying and glorifying of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost thrée persons and one God and Athanasius creede is not onely an excellent Athanasius Creede confutation of Arius heresie but a playne declaration of the mysterie of the Trinitie such as is necessary for all Christian men to learne and know and therefore he that is offended with the ofte repetition or saying of eyther of them I cannot tell what I should iudge of him But vndoubtedly there is greate cause why I should suspect him at the leaste of singularitie and vnquietnesse Shall we not oftentymes rehearse the Articles of our beliefe in God the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghoste bycause all menne be now perswaded therein and none knowne that maketh any doubte the reason is all one and preuayleth as well agaynst the repeating of this as of the other I thinke your meaning is that we know to muche and therefore now we must learne to forget Well your authoritie is little and your reasons much lesse and therefore they are lyke to stande in Statu quo and this is moste sure that harme they do none but much good bycause a good thing cannot be to ofte sayde or hearde Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. vlt. Moreouer to make Benedictus Magnificat and Nunc dimittis ordinarie and dayly prayers seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient considering that they do no more concerne vs than all other scriptures do and than doth the Aue Maria as they called it For although they were prayers of thankes giuing in Simeon Zacharie and the blessed virgin Mary yet can they not be so in vs which haue not receiued like
not somtime pray and sometimes reade the scriptures what do we else in the whole order of our seruice will you still more and more vtter your contempt agaynst God against his Church against a most pure and godly kynde of publike prayer and seruice and that with such vnreuerend speaches But I omit thē it is inough to haue noted thē in the margent for they are cōfutation to thēselues Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. vlt. If a man should come to a Prince and keepe such order in making his petitions vnto him that hauing very many things to demaunde after he had demaunded one thing he woulde stay a long tyme and then demaunde another and so the thirde the Prince might well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had neede of or that he had forgotten some piece of his sute or that he were distracted in his vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therefore how much more conuenient were it that according to the maner of the reformed Churches first the minister with an humble and generall confession of faults should desire the assistance of the Lord for the fruteful handling and receyuing of the worde of God and then after that we haue heard the Lorde speake vnto vs in his worde by his minister the Church should likewise speake vnto the Lorde and present all those petitions and sutes at once both for the whole Church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needfull Io. Whitgifte As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God so farre is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude from prouing your purpose except you will admit the like similitude vsed by the Papists to proue praying to Saints for the one hath as muche strength to proue ani thing as the other and yet neither of them both worth a rush And here you doe iniurie to God to compare him to an earthly Prince especially in this behalfe For what Prince would not thinke himselfe abused if a man shoulde dayly and hourely sue vnto him But it is not so with God for we haue a commaundement to pray continually Luke 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the forme of wordes but the affection of the heart And in verie déede it is most conuenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled All the scripture that you haue to alledge is the reformed Churches let other men thinke what they will I verily beléeue that in our maner and kinde of worshipping God in our publike and common prayers there is no cause why we shoulde thinke our selues one whit inferiour vnto them they also or the must part of them haue allowed the same order of ours at what time the like contention was about the same booke amōg our English mē which were in Q. Maries time banished for the gospel Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I. And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts it may be answered that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them their chiefe poyntes And further it may be answered that alwayes those prayers were continued togyther and not cut off and shred into diuerse small pieces Io. Whitgifte Howe knowe you that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prafers at large but onely set down the sums of thē their chief points What scripture haue you that teacheth you so to think if this be a sufficient answere to say the scripture hath not expressed the whole c. Why is it not also a sufficient answere for me to that which foloweth that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any forme of publike prayer ▪ hath not expressed any certaine or determinate forme of publike prayer to be vsed in all Churches as in déede it hath not but onely in the Lordes prayer giuen certaine generall poynts according to the whiche all our prayers must be framed Surely your fansie is strong but your arguments be excéeding weake For tell mée I pray you where haue you in the whole newe testament the Lordes prayer onely excepted any forme of publike prayer vsed in the Church described If you cannot shewe this why do you so childishly dallie Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places to say after the Minister whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted and a confused voyce of the people one speaking after another caused but an opinion bred in their heades that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister which notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those which they pronounce after the Minister otherwise than the order which is left vnto the Church of God doth beare For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende that as in publike meetings he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people euen so he ought to be (*) Vntruth ▪ onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed by the worde Amen As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time Io. Whitgifte God be thanked that the booke is so per te that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples thus triflingly to deale with it you vnchristianly say that the time is vnprofitably wasted which is spent in prayer you imagine that of the people that neuer entered into their thoughts you call it a confused voyce that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer and the ouerthwarting of all good and godly order But you must knowe that there is more speciall cause why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do than the other prayers bicause they conteyne a generall confession of sinnes which all Christians togither as well in voyce as in heart ought to confesse neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted but these generall Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and publike confessions and yet if it did I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it Musculus
confidently auouching that which you cannot proue The distribution of the cuppe in the Lordes supper is commaunded in manifest and expresse woordes as a parte of the Supper but you cannot shew me the like commaundement that only a minister shall celebrate Baptisme or els that it is no Baptisme We know that circumcision the figure of Baptisme was ministred sometimes by such as were no Priests and yet right and true circumcision Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. And for as much as S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent (*) This is added to the text no not Rom. 10. although he speake the wordes of the scripture and interprete them so I cannot see how a man can baptise vnlesse that he be sent to that end although he poure water and rehearse the wordes which are to be rehearsed in the ministrie of baptisme Io. Whitgifte S. 〈◊〉 in that 10. chapt to the Rom. speaketh of the extraordinarie calling to the office of preaching so sayeth M. Martyr in his Commentaries vpon this place Martyr And although Paule intreateth in this place of calling and sending and this is as I sayde ordinarie and extraordinarie there is no doubt but that he nowe speaketh of the extraordinarie calling c. And M. Caluine lykewise vpon the same place sayeth that Paule Caluine doth not there speake De legitima cuius que vocatione of the lawfull calling of euery man Wherefore if you will grounde any such reason vpon this place it muste be thus S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent and he meaneth of an extraordinarie sending therefore no man may preach vnlesse he be extraordinarily called therevnto and so consequently not minister baptisme except he be called in like manner If you will reason thus then do you cōfirme the baptizing by laye men who do it not ordinarily but extraordinarily vpon necessitie S. Paule doth not say that a man cannot preach which is not sente no not although he The Replier addeth to the text and for what purpose speaketh the wordes of the scripture and interprete them These wordes be so added by you that the simple and ignorant may thinke they be the woordes of S. Paule He that speaketh the wordes of the scripture and doth interprete them preacheth though he be not there vnto called and it is the true woorde of God he preacheth if he truly interprete but he intrudeth himselfe into a vocation where vnto he is not called and therefore Usurpers both in preaching and ministring the Sacraments offend God offendeth God but that doth derogate nothing from the woorde preached The same reason is of the administration of the Sacramentes for as the woorde of God is the woorde of God by whom so euer it be preached minister or other so is the Sacrament of Baptisme true baptisme by whom soeuer it be celebrated the vsurper of the office hath to answere for his intrusion but the Sacrament is not thereby defiled It is no harde matter to shew that in the primitiue Church laye men were suff d Lay men su fred to preach Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 20. to preach you know that Euseb. sayeth that Origene being a lay man was sent into Arabia to preach the Gospell which he also did both before after in the Church of Alexandria and likewise in Cesarea And although Demetrius then Bishop of Alexandria founde faulte that Origene beyng a laye man shoulde preache in the presence of Bishops at Cesarea Yet is it manifest that he allowed laye men to preach if Bishops were not present And in the same chapt by diuers examples it is shewed as of Euelpis at Laranda of Paulinus at Iconium of Theodorus at Synada that the custome of the Churches both then and before that time was that laye men might preach euen in the presence of Bishops so that you haue erred both in applying the place of S. Paule and in saying that laye men may not preache the woorde vpon occasion and so consequently Baptise Chap. 5. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. I know there be diuers (*) The more to blame you are without proo to enter into such difficulties difficulties in this question and therefore I was soth to enter into it but that the Answerer setteth downe so considently that it maketh no matter for the truthe of baptisme whether he be minister or no minister and so whether one haue a calling or no calling wherein notwithstanding he doth not onely by his often handling of one thing confounde his reader but himselfe also and forgetteth that he is in an other question than which is propounded For although it should be graūced him that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that yet hath he not that (a) This is no intended which he would haue that women may baptise for it is one thing to say the baptisme which is ministred by women is good and effectuall and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to minister baptisme For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is ministred by an hereticall minister is effectuall and yet I thinke that M. Doctor will not say that therefore an hereticall minister may baptise and that it is lawfull for Herctikes to baptise in the Churche And therfore men must not only take hede as M. Doctor sayth that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them whereof they are not capable although they be therevnto called Io. Whitgifte There are mo difficulties in this question than you can wel determine and therfore it had bene beste eyther not to haue spoken of it at all or els to haue handled it more substantially but the scarcitie of matter and reasons argueth the weakenesse and fayntnesse of the cause I passe ouer your woordes I go not aboute to proue that women may baptise onely I withstande this errour that the Substance and beyng of the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the man in any respect I say that baptisme ministred Baptisme true baptisme though vulawfully ministred by women is true Baptisme though it be not lawfull for women to baptise as the baptisme also ministred by heretiks is true baptisme though they be vsurpers of that office And the same S. Augustine affirmeth of baptisme by laye men in the place August lib. 2. contr Epist. Parmea ca. 13. before alleaged Although sayeth he it be vsurped without necessitie and is giuen of any man to any man that which is giuen cannot be sayde not to be giuen although it may be rightly sayde not to be rightly giuen And I further say that if the baptisime ministred by hereticall ministers which be no members of the Churche be notwithstanding good and effectuall I sée no cause why it should not be so rather if it be ministred by laye men which are members
men in the time of necessitie maye baptise whiche bothe are denyed by you without any kinde of proofe I haue also showed howe that the necessitie of baptising Infants is vehemently defended of those that be not of S. Augustines iudgement touching their damnation if they he not baptized and I haue set downe their wordes whiche conteyne their reasons Last of all I haue put you to proue that Priuate baptisme in time of necessitie is agaynst any comma dement or institution of Christs for I denie it So that notwithstanding I suspende my iudgement for baptizing by women yet I am oute o doubt for priuate baptisme ¶ Of priuate Communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the booke of Common prayer Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Nowe they are bounde to the booke of Common prayer in which a great number of thinges contrary to the worde of God are conteyeed c. as (k) 1. Cor. 11. 18. priuate Communion c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 1. 2. I knowe not what you meane by priuate Communion if you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 meane the receyuing of one alone there is none suche allowed in the booke if you meane bicause it is ministred sometime vpon occasion in priuate houses I see not howe you can call it priuate in respect of the place if the number of Communicants be sufficient You must explicate your selfe before I can tell what you meane There is nothing in the communion booke touching the Communion contrarie to the place of S. Paule by you quoted to my 1. Cor. 11. knowledge T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There followeth the priuate Communion whiche is founde faulte with bothe for the place wherein it is ministred and for the small number of Communicants whiche are admitted by the booke of seruice Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently it resteth to consider of the number But before I come to that I wil speake something of the causes and beginning of receyuing in houses and of the ministring of the Communion vnto sicke folkes It is not to be denyed but that this abuse is very ancient and was in Iustine Martyrs time in Tertullians and Cyprians tyme euen as also there were other abuses crepte into the Supper of the Lorde and that very grosse as the mingling of water wyth wyne and therein also a necessitie and great mysterie placed as it may appeare bothe by Iustine Martyr and Cyprian whyche I therfore by the waye doe admonishe the Reader of that the antiquitie of this abuse of priuate Communion be not preiudiciall to the truthe no more than the mingling of water with that opinion of necessitie that those fathers had of it is or ought to be preiudiciall to that that we vse in ministring the cuppe wyth pure wyne according to the institution Io. Whitgifte This is your accustomed maner but it is besides all good maners to wype away The vsuall answering of T. C. auncient and learned authoritie by obiecting vnto the authors some imperfection in their writings or errours in their times Is this a good reason water was of necessitie required in Cypryans time in the administration of the supper and that was an errour therefore the communion at that tyme and long before ministred vnto the sicke and carried to priuate persons béeing absent was vnlawfull Suche be your arguments and this is your kinde of answering which maye be plausible to the ignorant people but nothing pleasaunt to suche as be learned This one thing More sinceritie in the mi nistratiō now than in the auncient Churche I will desire the Reader to consider that séeing our sacraments nowe be more sincerely ministred than they were in Iustines Tertullians and Cyprians tyme béeing so neare the Apostles what cause there should be for you so bitterly to inu ygh agaynst this Church in that respect Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. tovvardes the ende I say therfore that this abuse was auncient and rose vpon these causes First of all in the primitiue Churche the discipline of the Churche was so seuere and so extreme that if any whiche professed the truthe and were of the body of the Churche dyd through infyrmitie denic the truthe and ioyned hymselfe vnto the Idolatrous seruice althoughe he repenting came agayne vnto the Church yet was he not receyued to the cōmunion of the Lords supper any more And yet lying in extremitie of sicknesse and ready to depart this lyfe if they dyd require the Communion in token that the Church had forgiuen the fault and was reconciled altogither vnto that person that had so fallen they graunted that he might be partaker of it as may appeare by the (*) Euscb. li. 6. cap. 4 story of Serapton Io. Whitgifte All this is true for sometime they had thrée sixe or ten yeres space of repentance before they were admitted to the sacrament and after that tyme was expired they came as other dyd to the Communion if they liued to it if not they receyued it on their death bedde This is for my purpose for it manifestly declareth that then the Communion was ministred vnto the sicke whiche is our question it can by no meanes be drawne agaynst me Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 116. Lin. 2. An other cause was that whyche was before alleaged which is the false opinion whych they had conceyued that all those were condemned that receyued not the supper of the Lorde and therfore when as those that were as they called them Cathecumeni whych is yong Nouices in religion neuer admitted to the supper or yong chyldren fell sicke daungerously they ministred the supper of the Lord vnto them least they should want their voyage victuall as they termed it which abuse notwithstanding was neyther so auncient as the other nor so generall Io. Whitgifte This was the cause that moued some so to doe howbeit neyther was it the onely cause neyther the generall and vsuall cause but the generall and vsuall cause was the institution of Christe and the fruites and effectes of that Supper the whiche whosoeuer dothe consider accordingly will neyther cease from requiring it in tyme of extremitie neyther withholde it from suche as faythfully and earnestly desire the same and it is an easie matter to shewe that this manner of communicating in priuate families is of very great antiquitie euen in Iustinus Martyrs time as appeareth in his seconde Apologie and is by you confessed Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 8. And there wanted not good men whiche declared their misliking and dyd decree agaynst both the abuses and agaynst all manner communicating in priuate houses As in the Councell of (*) Tom. 1. n. 58. Laodicea it was ordeyned that neyther Byshop nor Elder shoulde make any oblation that was minister any Communion in houses Io. Whitgifte This Councell dothe speake agaynst the vsuall manner of celebrating the Communion in priuate houses without any respect of necessitie whiche
abuse was growen in some places in the tyme of Hierome and Damasus about whose time thys The Cōmuniō ministred to the sicke Councell was but there is neyther Councell nor learned Father that euer opened their mouthes agaynst ministring the Communion to the sicke in pryuate families or vpon any other vrgente or necessarie occasion The (*) In the Greeke it is the. 13. Canon 12. Canon of the Councell of Nice dothe determine directly that the Communion oughte to be ministred to the sicke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 12. Besides therefore that I haue before shewed the vnlawfulnesse generally of ministring the Sacrament in priuate places seeing that the custome of ministring thys Supper vnto the sicke rose vpon corrupte causes and rotten foundations and consydering also God be praysed in these tymes there are non dryuen by feare to renounce the truthe wherevpon any suche excommunication should ensue which in the extremitie of sicknesse should be mitigated after thys sorte for no man nowe that is in extreme sicknesse is cast downe or else assaulted with this temptation that he is cutte off from the Churche I saye these things considered it followeth that this ministring of Communion in priuate houses and to the sicke is vnlawfull as that whiche rose vpon euill grounds and if it were lawfull yet that nowe in these times of peace and when the sicke are not excōmunicated there is no vse of it And so it appeareth how little the custome of the olde Church dothe helpe M. Doctor in this poynt Io. Whitgifte This was one cause but not the only cause why the Communion was ministred to the sicke the chiefe and principall cause was as I haue sayde the frutes and effectes of that Sacrament whiche is remission of sinnes peace of conscience and effectuall applying of the death and passion of Christ vnto the Communicants and an assurance of Gods promises whereof that sacrament is an effectuall seale Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 3. The Communion exhibited vnto sicke persons is allowed bothe Sick persons receyue the communion of Peter Martyr and Bucer as in the other treatise I haue declared and consonant to the custome of Christes Churche euen from the Apostles time as is to be seene in the olde writers T. C. Page 116. Sect. 1. And as for that he sayth Peter Martyr and Bucer do allowé the Communion exhibited to the sicke persons when he sheweth that he shal haue answere For where he sayth he hath declared it in an other treatise eyther the Printer hath left out that treatise or M. Doctor wonderfully forgetteth him selfe or else he meaneth some odde thing that he hath written and layed vp in some corner of his studie for surely there is no suche saying in all his booke before nor yet after as farre as I can finde M. Bucer in his Censures vpon the Communion booke speaking of this parte of Bucer it sayth thus And those thinges whiche are commaunded in this behalfe doe well inoughe agree with the holye Scriptures for to receyue the Communion of the Lorde and to be partaker of hys Table dothe not a little auayle vnto the comforte of afflicted consciences if it be receyued according to the Lords institution M. Martyrs allowing of the same is added in that place M. Musculus in his Common places Titul de coena Domini saythe that Priuata Musculus extrema aegrotantium communio c. Priuate and last communion ministred to the sicke is reteyned in dyuers reformed Churches for this ende that the sicke persons thereby maye be strengthned in fayth made stronger agaynst the temptations of Sathan and the better armed to beare the paynes of death Neyther doe I sée any reason if the superstitious opinion of the Papistes be rooted out why any man in that case shoulde be depriued of these benefites Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 116. Sect. 2. Nowe remayneth to be spoken of the number of communicantes and that there is saulte in the appoynting of the Seruice booke not onely for that it admitteth in the tyme of plague that one wyth the Minister maye celebrate the Supper of the Lorde in the house but for that it ordeyneth a Communion in the Churche when of a great number whyche assemble there it admytteth thrce or foure The abuse and inconuenience whereof maye thus be considered The holy Sacrament of the Supper of the Lorde is not onely a seale and confirmation of the promises of God vnto vs but also a profession of our comunction as well with Christe our sauiour and wyth God as also as (*) 1. C 10 S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that we are at one wyth our brethren so that it is first a sacrament of the knytting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly wyth the head and then of the members of the bodie one wyth an other Nowe therefore seeing that euery particular Churche and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portrayture of the whole Churche and body of Christ it followeth that whyche we can not doe wyth all the Churche scattered throughout the whole worlde for the distaunces of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that Churche wherevnto God hath raunged vs as muche as possibly or conuentently maye be The departing therefore of the rest of the Churche from those three or foure is an open profession that they haue no communion felowshippe nor vnitie wyth them that doe communicate and likewyse of those three or foure that they haue none wyth the rest that ioyne not themselues therevnto when as both by the many grapes making one cup cornes making one loafe that whole Church beeing many persons are called as to the vnitie whiche they haue one with an other and altogether among them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receyuing one wyth another and altogither amongst themselues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lorde we thereby vtter our wante of loue towardes the Lorde whyche hathe redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate togither wyth the Churche so farre foorthe as we maye doe conueniently we betray the wante of our loue that we haue one towards an other And therefore S. (*) 1. C 11 Paule driuing heerevnto wysheth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lordes Supper not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not beene possible in so great assemblies but that they sorted them selues into certayne companies and that they came scattering one after an other and that in steade of making one Supper of the Lorde they dyd make dyuers Io. Whitgifte You can
not be ignorant that the whole drifte of the Cōmunion booke is to moue The intent of the booke is to moue all men to communicate all men to ofte communicating and that togither as it manifestly appeareth in the first exhortation in the booke prescribed to be read when the Curate shall sée the people negligent in comming to the Communion the which if you had well peruse you would haue as I think cutte off much of this talke If the booke should appoynt that thrée or foure should communicate togither no more or if it did not allow that Communion best wherein most of the Church doe participate then were your reasoning to some ende but séeing that it is appoynted that there shoulde not be fewer than thrée or foure to the ende that it might be a Communion and haue no similitude with the Papisticall Masse there is no cause why you should take this paynes And surely he that shal compare that exhortation in the booke with this discourse of yours it will be no harde matter for him to iudge how much more pithily and effectually Thre or foure a sufficient number if other will not communicate this matter is there handled than it is here by you But that thrée or foure shoulde be a sufficient number to communicate if other will not there is good cause for séeing the holy Sacrament is a Seale and confirmation of Gods promises and an effectuall applying of the death and passion of Christ vnto vs and therefore a singular comfort and reliefe to the afflicted conscience and minde touched with the féeling Thre or foure a cōgregation Math. 18. of sinne why shoulde those that be desirous of it béeing a congregation as thrée or foure is according to the saying of Christ where two or three be gathered togither in my name c. be debarred from their Godly desire and that singular comfort for the carelesnesse securitie negligence or lacke of such féeling of others Shall none communicate bycause all will not Or shall not thrée or foure because the rest refuse Or is it lacke of loue towardes our neighbour or any token thereof if we resort to the Lordes table when other will not Where learne you that The place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. is not aptly applyed For the Apostle in that place reproueth onely such as contemptuously or contentiously did separate themselues from other as well in the publike feastes called Loue feastes and then vsed in the Church as in the Supper of the Lorde But he rather meaneth of the first than of the Martyr in 1. Cor. 11. latter and therfore sayth M. Martyr vpon that place The Supper is here called priuate eyther bycause some did chalenge to themselues priuately that whiche belonged to all or else bicause euerie one after the receyuing of the holy mysteries did take againe to himselfe those things which he had offered at the Lordes table and made that his owne whiche by right belonged to all And againe he sayth that the Corinthians be there reproued Bicause they pampered their bellie and contemned their brethren I tolde you before what M. Caluine thought of this place it can in no respect tende to the disallowing of any order appoynted in the booke of common prayer bicause no man is secluded from the Communion that will come and those that come when other men will not do it not of contempt or of contention but of conscience and pietie Moreouer wée haue no such banquettes or feastes eyther before or after the Communion as the Corinthians had and therefore in that respect there can be no suche abuse as the Apostle there reproueth Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Admonition Sixthly in this booke three or foure are allowed for a fit number to receyue the Communion and the Priest alone togither with one more or with the sicke man alone may in tyme of necessitie that is when there is any common plague or in tyme of other visitation minister it to the sicke man and if he require it it may not be denyed This is not I am sure lyke in effect to a priuate Masse that Scripture (f) Mat. 26. 27 Mar. 14. 23 drinke ye all of this maketh not agaynst this and priuate Communion is not agaynst the Scriptures Ansvvere to the Adm onition Pag. 185. Sect. 1. How vntruly these men charge the Church with priuate Communions I haue shewed before The place of scripture here alledged to proue that three or foure be not a sufficient number to communicate No number determined to be at the Cōmunion is this drinke ye all of this Mat. 26. Mark 14. which may as well be applyed to proue that ten twentie fortie is no sufficient number I know not what your meaning is except you thinke no number sufficient vnlesse al do communicate togither bicause Christ said drink ye all of this This text proueth that all ought to be partakers of the Lordes Cuppe but it doth not determine any certaine number of Communicants I knowe there be some of the olde fathers as Basilius Basill would haue xii at the least Magnus which would not haue fewer Communicants than xii But of the number of Communicants there is nothing determined in Scripture neither is it materiall so that there be a number that it may be a Communion T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the. 185. page where this matter is spoken of which is drink you al of this is not so ridiculous as M. doctor maketh it For although it do neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present did communicate so as many as in the Church are fit to receyue the Sacraments or may conuetently receyue them togither should follow that example in celebrating the supper togither Io. Whitgifte The booke of common prayer doth greatly commend and like the receyning of the whole Church togither but if that can not be obteyned as it cannot and they will not haue men compelled vnto it it secludeth not those that be well disposed so they be a competent number And the booke doth exhort those to depart which do not communicate with a warning from whence they depart so that you may well vnderstand that the meaning of the Booke is that all that be present should communicate Neither can this place of scripture be drawne to improue the decrée of y e Church therin For Christ had 70. other disciples and his mother with diuers other which followed him that were not present at that Supper as no doubt they should haue béene if by that example he had ment to haue made a law that there may be no Cōmunion vnlesse the whole congregation of euery particular Church do communicate togither Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. And it is probably to be thought that if our Sauiour
continuallye to be taught that hée shoulde at all tymes remember his dutie so is it verye necessarye to haue certayne feastes wherein by the readyng and hearyng of the Scriptures men maye be particularlye styrred to the remembraunce and depe consyderation of the principall partes of our Religion and the good and godlye examples of the Sainctes of God in doing their dutie therein Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 18. But besydes the incommodities that vyse of makyng such holydayes and continuyng of those which are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besydes this I saye the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shall assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thynke good accordyng to those rules whiche are before alleadged But that it hath power to make so manye holydayes as we haue wherein no man maye worke any parte of the daye and wherein men are commaunded to cease from theyr daylye vocations of Plowyng and exercisyng theyr handye craftes c. that I denye to be in the power of the churche For proofe whereof I wyll take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it than M. Doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whiche is that God lycenseth and leaueth it at the libertie of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth day Seeing that therfore that the Lord hathe lefte it to all men at libertie that they might labour if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the Churche nor (*) You drawe from the Magistrate his law authoritie and giue to the people too muche carnall libertie no man can take away this libertie from them and driue them to a necessarie rest of the body Io. Whitgifte The same God that gaue that libertie in that commaundement did appoynt other solemne feast dayes besides the Sabboth as the feast of Easter of Pentecoste of Tabernacles c. withoute any restraynte of this libertie Therefore the interpretation giuen by me page 174. of that place dothe not leaue it to euery priuate mans frée libertie agaynst the authoritie of the Magistrate or of the Churche but it giueth libertie rather to suche as be in authoritie and to the Churche to appoynt therin what shall be conuenient The Magistrate hathe power and authoritie ouer his subiectes in all externall The Magistrate hathe authoritie to abridge externall libertie What libertie can not be taken away matters and bodily affayres Wherefore he maye call them from bodily labour or compell them vnto it as shall be thought to him moste conuenient The libertie that God giueth to man whyche no man oughte to take from hym nor can if he woulde is libertie of conscience and not of worldly affayres In bodily businesse he is to be gouerned by Magistrates and lawes This doctrine of yours is very licentious and tendeth too muche to carnall and corporall libertie and in déede is a very perillous doctrine for all states Not one title in Gods worde dothe constrayne eyther the Magistrate or the Churche from turning carnall libertie to the spiritual seruice of God or bodily labour to diuine worship as those doe that cause men to abstayne from corporall labour that they maye heare the worde of God and worship him in the congregation And whye maye not the Churche as well restrayne them from working anye parte of the daye as it maye doe the moste parte of it for you confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynte so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shoulde assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whiche are before alleaged and this it can not doe vnlesse in the same dayes during all that tyme whiche is no small portion of the daye it restrayne them from bodily laboure Wherefore this béeing no commaundement that they shall labour sixe dayes in the wéeke but a signification that so many dayes they maye labour as the same God that gaue this commaundement hathe done before in the olde lawe so maye the Churches likewyse for the encrease of godlinesse and vertue and edification appoynt some of those sixe dayes to be bestowed in prayers hearing the worde administration of the sacraments and other holy actions Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. about the middest And if it be lawfull to abridge the libertie of the Churche in this poynte and in steade that the Lorde saythe Sixe dayes thou mayest labour if thou wilte to saye Thou shalte not labour sixe dayes I doe not see why the Churche maye not as well where as the Lorde saythe thou shalt rest the seuenth daye commaunde that thou shalte not rest the seuenth day for if the Church maye restrayne the libertie that God hathe giuen them it maye take away the yoke also that God hathe put vpon them Io. Whitgifte The Churche is not abridged of hir libertie in thys poynte but vseth hir libertie in appoynting some of these dayes to the worshipping of GOD and the instruction of his people whiche shoulde not be counted a bondage or seruitude to any man To rest the seuenth daye is commaunded to labour sixe dayes is but permitted he that for biddeth rest on the seuenth daye dothe directly agaynst the cōmaundement so dothe not he that restrayneth men from bodily labour in any of the sixe dayes and therefore the reason is not lyke And yet the commaundement of bodily rest vpon the seuenth day in sundrie cases maye of a mans selfe muche more at a lawfull commaundement of a Magistrate in necessitie be broken In thinges indifferent priuate mens willes are subiect to suche as haue authoritie ouer them therefore they ought to consent to their determination in such matters except they will shewe them selues to be wilfull whiche is a great faulte and deserueth muche punishment But hitherto you haue not replied to any Answere made to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 173. in the latter ende This is no restraynt for any man from seruing of God any daye in the weeke else For the Iewes had diuers other feastes whiche they by Gods appoyntment obserued notwithstāding these words Sixe dayes c. T. C. Pag. 120. Sect. 1. And where as you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding this fourth commaundement the Iewes had certayne other feasts whych they obserued In deede the Lorde which gaue this generall lawe mighte make as many exceptions as he thoughte good and so long as he thought good but it followeth not bycause the Lorde dyd it that therefore the Churche may doe it vnlesse it hath commaundement and authoritie
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
and from all other auncient authoritie of learned menne for you knowe full well your lacke of abilitie to maynteyne this and other your opinions by the testimonies of auncient wryters nay you can not but confesse that the olde learned Fathers are vtterly agaynst you which is the cause why you appeale from them but it is an vnlearned shirt Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag â–ª 122. Sect. 1. And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes firste of all was much better than of later tymes For Socrates confesting that neyther our Sauiour Christe nor the Apostles li. 5. ca. 22. did decree or institute any holydayes or laye any yoke of bondage vpon the neckes of those which came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse firste to obserue the holydayes by custome and (*) Socrates wordes vntruly reported that as euery man was disposed at home which thing if it had remayned in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraynt it had bene much better than it is now and had not drawne such daungers vpon the posteritie as did after ensue and we haue the experience of Io. Whitgifte Surely they were neuer better nor more pure from al supersticion and other errours than they be nowe in this Churche and therefore in that respecte there is no cause to complaine You do not truely reporte Socrates words nor yet his meaning for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. Cap â–ª 22. that euery man at home kepte those dayes as he was disposed but thus he sayth VVherefore neyther the Apostle nor the Gospell do at any tyme laye a yoke of bondage vpon them whiche come vnto the preachyng of the Gospell but menne themselues euery one in theyr countrie according as they thought good celebrated the feast of Easter and other holydayes of custome for the intermission of theyr laboures and remembrance of the healthfull passion his meaning is not that euery priuate man in his owne house kepte Easter and the other feastes as him lysted but that euery Churche appoynted such an order and tyme for the same as it thought conuenient and that this is his meaning that whiche followeth in that Chapter and expresseth his owne opinion of this mater dothe euidently declare His woordes be these Surely I am of this opinion that as many other thinges in diuerse places haue bene brought in of custome so the feaste of Easter had a priuate or peculiar obseruation with euery particular people of custome bycause none of the Apostles as I haue sayde did make any lawe hereof c. For his whole drifte is to proue that the feast of Easter concerning the daye and tyme was diuersly obserued in diuers Churches and Countries but he neyther can proue nor goeth aboute to proue that there was any Churche wherein it was not obserued And I haue before declared that the feast of Easter was obserued by the Apostles and sithence that tyme continued Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 1. Pag. 178. Sect. 1. c. Other reformed Churches also haue dayes ascribed to Sainets Bullinger aswell as we as it may appeare by these wordes of Bullinger writing Obseruing of holydayes in other reformed churches vpon the. 14. to the Rom. In the auncient vvriters as Eusebius and Augustine thou mayste finde certayne memorials appoynted to certayne holy menne but after an other manner not muche differing from oures vvhich vve as yet reteyne in our Churche of Tigurie for vvee celebrate the natiuitie of Christe his Circumcision Resurrection and Ascention the comming of the holy Ghost the feastes also of the virgin Mary Iohn Baptiste Magdalene Stephen and the other Apostles yet not condemning those vvhich obserue none but onely the Sabboth daye For perusing olde Monumentes vve finde that this hath alvvayes bene left free to the Churches that euery one should follow that in these things that should be most best and conuenient M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco speaking of holydayes Bucer sayeth That in the Scriptures there is no expresse commaundement of them it is gathered notvvithstanding sayeth he from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlinesse vvhich thing also experience proueth To be shorte Illyricus writing vpon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Obseruing of dayes considered foure wayes this diuision of obseruing dayes and times The first is naturall as of somer spryng time winter c. tyme of planting tyme of sovvyng time of reaping c. 1 The second is ciuill 2 The third Ecclesiasticall as the Sabboth daye and other dayes vvherein 3 is celebrated the memorie of the chiefe histories or actes of Christe vvhiche be profitable for the instruction of the simple that they may the better remember vvhen the Lorde vvas borne vvhen he suffred vvhen he ascended vp into heauen and be further taught in the same The fourth superstitious vvhen we put a necessitie vvorshipping merite 4 or rightuousnesse in the obseruing of tyme and this kinde of obseruing dayes and tymes is onely forbidden in this place Thus you see by the iudgementes of all these learned menne that dayes ascrybed vnto Sainctes is no suche matter as ought to make menne separate themselues from the Churche and absteyne from allowing by subscription so worthie and godly a booke as the booke of common prayer is much lesse to make a Schisme in the Churche for the same T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers and Illyricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the Scriptures which concerne them whose remembraunce is solemnised redde expounded and yet men not debarred after from their dayly workes it is so much the lesse matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the Churches to dissent from them in that poynte I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the Churche Although as touching M. Bullinger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vpon the Romanes there are aboute 35. yeares sithence which time although he holde still that the feastes kept vnto the Lorde as of the Natiuitie Easter and Pentecoste dedicated vnto the Lord may be kept yet he demeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the Apostles as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur alianim Eccles cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church ioyned with others Io. Whitgifte How perfect an Answere this is to these learned mennes authorities lette the learned Reader iudge You are not a Churche but a member of the Churche and therefore seing the matter is such as the Churche may take an order in you ought to submitte your selfe to the determination of that Churche
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
iudgement what shall become of suche as not onely not preache themselues but deface other men that preache by backbiting and slaundering and spreading abrode false rumours vpon them to discredite both their persons and doctrine and with sectes schismes rent in péeces the Church of Christ and violently plucke downe whatsoeuer other men haue builded O. T. C. these things would be considered in time The seconde Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor taketh occasion to vtter his stomacke agaynste London ▪ flynging of one syde agaynste the women of the other syde agaynste the Ministers whose diligence bycause it maketh M. Doctors negligence more to appeare as a darke and dus she colour matched with that whiche is cleare and lightsome he doth goe aboute to deface with the vntrue and slaunderous surmyse of loose negligente and vnprofitable preachyng If there be some one such or two in London t is too greate iniurie therefore to charge indefinitely the companye of the ministers of London Besydes that M. Doctor dothe not see howe fyrste he accuseth the ▪ Bishop or euer he beaware bothe in ordeyning suche ministers and not in reforming them beyng so farre out of order and then the Archbishop whiche doth not require this disorder at the Bishops hande 〈◊〉 as he sayeth this is so godlie and heauenly an order to haue one Bishop ouer many ministers and one Archebishop ouer dyuers ▪ Bishops and if we shall esteeme the pythinesse and fastnesse of preachyng ▪ by the frutes as by the knowledge and sear ▪ of God in the people of London and by faythfull and true hearts toward the Prince and the Realme I thynk that that which he termeth 〈◊〉 loose and vnprofitable preachyng wit fal out to be waightyer and to leaue a deeper printe behynde them than those monethly sermons whyche he speaketh of And tte Ministers of London better ministers whiche preache twice a day than those whiche make the words of God nouell and daynties and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd Strawberies commyng only at certayne tymes of the yeare Io. Whitgifte I speake fyrste of the Authours of the Admonition Then I reporte M. Whithead his saying of dyuers preachers in London whiche if you coulde haue improued I thynke you woulde I knowe there be manye graue learned wyse and go re Preachers in London whyche haue greately profited that place and as instrumentes haue wroughte those good effectes you speake of in the heartes of many But I knowe also there be some others farre vnlyke vnto them in all respects who by their vndiscreate and loose dealyng haue as muche as yeth in them wroughte the contrarie If they haue bene suffered eyther throughe the negligence of Archebishop or Bishop I excuse neyther of them I thinke they haue good cause to take better héed hereafter Touching the women of London I haue not sayde any thyng to their disprayse I knowe a number verie honeste and godlie and I knowe none that is euyll Onely I require that modestie in some of them that beséemeth sober matrones and women pro essyng the Gospell It is not séemely for a woman to speake in the Churche no not that whiche is good muche lesse comely is it for hir to sc lde openly in the streates or to be a common deprauer of others at tables and other meetings There is no cause why I shoulde beare a stomacke 〈◊〉 London whiche place I haue alwayes honoured where I haue many friendes to the whych I haue shewed as many tokens of good will as any one man of my abilitie But if I admonishe some of the Citezens and bidde them take héede that they abuse not the Gospell to serue theyr affections that they make it not a cloke for theyr contentions that they waxe not wearie of it and desire straunge Doctrines that they heape not vp suche Preachers vnto themselues as maye serue theyr humours that they shewe themselues more thankfull for the Gospell the whyche they haue so long receyued that they studye for peace and quietnesse that they grieue not the Prince in séekyng alterations by whome they enioy the pure worde of God true vse of his Sacramentes and syncers woorshyppyng of hym To be shorte if I moue them to brotherly loue true obedience to theyr Superiours and hatred of sectes and schismes whervnto diuers of them be too much drawne by such as you are Do I vtter my stomacke agaynst them If eyther they or you take it so ▪ then I answere that I must obey God rather than man and preferre my Prince before all my friendes But this is a péece of your Rhetorike to drawe into hatred which I doubt not the godlie will easyly espie and iudge of your spirite accordingly The thirde Diuision Admonition Nay some in the fulnesse of their blasphemie haue sayde it that muche preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempt and that foure preachers were inough for all London so farre are they from thinking it necessarie seeking that euery congregation should haue a faithfull pastor Answere to the Admonition Pag. 167. Sect. 2. 3. If any haue mislyked often preachyng or hane sayde that muche Uerball preachers preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempte or that foure preachers were inough for all London they are to be blamed and that iustely and not the booke for it willeth no man to say so But if any hath sayd that some of those which vse to preach often by their loose negligente verball and vnlearned Sermons haue brought the worde of God into contempte or that foure godlie learned pithy diligent and discreete preachers might do more good in London than fortie contentious vnlearned verball and rashe Preachers they haue sayde truely and their saying myghte well be iustifyed Howbeit take heede that you slaunder no man or vniustly seeke the discredite of any whylest you seeke to vtter youre malice against that godlie booke None that fauoureth Gods word as I thinke denyeth that hearing the worde of God is the vsuall and ordinarie meanes whereby God vseth to woorke faythe in vs And that therfore Preachers be necessarie T. C. Page 124. Lin. 10. Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh agayne in the. 167. page but to this effect altogether and almoste in the same wordes Io. Whitgifte And yet is there somthing there that would haue bin answered but I take that as graunted whiche is not answered The fourth Diuision Admonition The seuententh and eightenth Then nothing taught but Gods word now princes pleasures mēs deuises Popish ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended Then they sought (p) Phil. 2. 20. 21. them now they seeke theyrs Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 84. Sect. 3. 4. 5. It had bin wel to let vs vnderstand what those Princes pleasures The Churche of Englande slaundered by the Admonitors be what mens deuises what Popish ceremonies what Antichristiā rites for nowe you haue but slandered both the Prince the whole state of religion in this
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
disciples did minister the baptisme of water in times past without any doctrine and without giuing the holy Ghost for they baptised when as Christ taught and did not baptise as we haue before shewed out of the. 4. of Iohn and out of the 1. Cor. 1. for Paule Zuinglius sayth Christe sent me not to baptise but to preache therfore some taught and other baptised But we may gather out of the sixt of Iohn that baptisme was vsed before that men being indued with true faith did sticke vnto the doctrine for there we reade that many forsooke Christ whom notwithstanding no man doubteth to haue bin before baptised Again intreating of these wordes Euntes docete omnes gentes c. Math. 28. which the Anabaptistes vse for an argument to improue the baptisme of infantes bicause Christe sayd there Docete before he said Baptizate whereof they gather your assertion that preaching must go before baptisme and therefore conclude that infantes may not be baptised bicause they can not be taught saith thus By these wordes they which deny baptisme vnto infantes do not only seduce them selues but drawe others also into great errors and Laberinthes for vrging of the bare order of the wordes of Christe they haue nothing else in their mouthes but onely this Docete baptizate teache and baptise Beholde saye they the commaundement of Christe In the meane tyme they do not marke nay in deede they will not marke that the same thing that they so much crie vpon doctrine is afterwarde also set after when as he sayth Docentes eos seruare c. teaching them to obserue all those thinges vvhich I haue commaunded you By the which wordes it is manifest that baptisme is a signe whereby we giue our names and haue our firste entrance vnto Christ the which being giuen and receiued yet notwithstanding those thinges are to be taught and to be learned which Christ would haue vs to keepe but these men vrging the bare letter Crye still that Christe sayd Docete baptizate teache and baptise VVherfore I will also vrge the same bare letter but for their causes onely if by any meanes I might withdrawe them from their desire to contende Sirs you vrge that saying Go and teache al nations baptizing thē in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and I say this Baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost teaching them to obserue all things vvhatsoever I haue commaunded you VVherefore nowe I aske whither of vs hath the worde more plaine and apert that concerneth doctrine you verily bring the worde of God whiche proueth that men should be taught but what kinde of doctrine that is is not in those your wordes expressed But wee haue the worde of God more cleare and playne than yours which is Teaching them to obserue all those things vvhatsoeuer I haue commaunded you and these wordes are put after and not set before baptisme And a little after Although we graunt that this order of wordes hath some force in this place yet these things perteine nothing vnto young children and infantes that they should not be baptised before doctrine for these wordes perteine vnto those that are instructed in doctrine and the outward worde but it is manifest that infantes are not taught therfore these wordes can not so be referred vnto children that they ought not to be baptized And in the same booke speaking of this 3. chap. of Mathewe by you alleadged When preaching is necessary before 〈◊〉 and vsed of the Anabaptistes to the same purpose he graunteth that Iohn did preache before he did baptise For necessitie so required that by teaching he should expounde to the people the causes of baptisme For except doctrine were preached no man woulde in these our dayes haue their children baptized But after they were of yeares of discretion and had receiued faith through the ministerie of the doctrine as we reade that it was done of them in olde time they brought their children also to be baptised And in the ende he concludeth thus In the meane time we do willingly graunt this vnto them that doctrine and instruction ought to go before if at any time we come vnto infidels for none of the Heathen ought to be baptised but he which hath heard and beleued that doctrine which was before vnknowen vnto them and theirs Thus then you sée howe nere your opinion of the necessitie of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes approcheth to the heresie of the Anabaptists If you would shifte off the matter as though you required not this necessitie of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes alwayes in respecte of those whiche are ro receiue them but in respect of the rest which are present as this would be but a shifte so can it not agrée with your assertion for the lyfe of the sacramentes perteyneth not to those that bée present but vnto those that are partakers of them Wherefore M. Doctor néedeth not his egles eyes to espye your errors that I saye no worse but with dimmer sight than he hath might easely sée that you in this doctrine haue playnely ioyned handes with the Anabaptistes And yet I would not haue any man thinke that I mislyke preaching in the administration Preaching be fore the ministration not disalowed of the sacramentes which can be vnprofitable at no tyme but this only I affirme that it is not so necessarily ioyned with the administration of the sacramentes but that they may be rightly administred though the woorde be not at the same tyme preached ¶ Of Reading of the Scriptures Tract 13. A comparison betvvene reading of scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 125. Sect. vlt. After this M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church and this accusation he foloweth in many wordes and in diuers places wherein as in a number of other places of their booke the authours of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus which is that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant that is by and by expounded otherwyse than it is ment of hym that speaketh it so that that which is giuen with the right hande is receyued with the lefte For the authors of the Admonition declaring their vtter mislikyng that there shoulde be in steade of a preaching minister (a) A daungerous parenthesis if I may so call hym and in steade of preachyng reading are vntruely expounded of M. Doctor as though they condemned all reading in the churche And here he maketh himselfe worke and picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper and to proue that which no man denieth for besydes this treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 170. page so lighteth vs a candle at noone dayes
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
of other mens behauiour are for the most part negligent and forgetfull of their owne duties So that it is necessary for euery man to examine himselfe and not so necessary for one man to examine another But what I thinke of this kynde of examining by other I haue declared in my Answer to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. Then he saith he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In A place of scripture fondly applyed the second booke of the Chronicles he might haue read that the Leuites were there commaunded 2. Chro. 35 to prepare the people vnto the receiuing of the passouer in place whereof we haue the Lords supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that there is commaundement of examination Io. Whitgifte You bewray the weakenesse of your cause to much when you are constrayned to The Replyer applyeth a ceremoniall precept to the receiuing of the communion runne so farre for a precept to proue the examination of communicants to be commaunded and especially when you are compelled for want of other to bring out ceremoniall precepts long ago abrogated This boldnes of yours is so by custome confirmed that now without blushing it dare abuse any scripture yea euen touching the Ceremonies of the law to proue any deuise of your owne and why may not the Papistes as well vse the same for their auricular confession But what if that commaundement signify no such thing from whence then will His precept proueth not his purpose you fetch your proofe the wordes of Iosiah to the Leuites in the. 2. Chro. 35. vers 6. be these So kill the passouer and sanctify your selues and prepare your brethren that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses What one word of examining other is there in this commaundement These words Prepare your brethren Looke the marginal note in the Geneua Bible c. are thus expounded by learned interpreters Exhort your brethren to examin thēselues that they may be ready to eate the passouer according to the word of the Lorde by the hand of Moses And manifest it is that neyther the Priests nor the Leuites dyd did euer vse any suche kinde of examination before the eating of the Passouer as you woulde insinuate and therfore as yet you are vtterly destitute of a commaundemente Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. And how holdeth (a) This is an ar ument of your owne framing this argument S. Paule commandeth that euery man should proue him self ergo there is no commaundement that the ministers shold proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne himself therfore he may not be gouerned by others The authors of the Admonition do not meane that euery one should be examined as those whose vnderstanding in the Gospell is well knowne or whych doe examine themselues and so they interprete themselues in the. 108. page Io. Whitgifte Surely it holdeth as the moste parte of your argumentes do that is loosely for it is your reason it is not myne If I haue framed any such argument it will appeare in my Answere But this is your manner peuishly to peruert my wordes and therfore haue you concealed my booke least your Reader should espie you as he must needes do if he hath any iudgement Neyther doe I mislyke that there should be examination of the communicantes Examination of communicants 〈◊〉 disallowed as I haue said in my Answere but I mislyke this wrangling at the administratiō of the sacraments vsed in this church without cause neither would I haue this kinde of examination counted as necessarie seing it is no where cōmanded neither yet any example of it either in the Apostolicall or primitiue Church In what words or how do the Authors of the Admonition interpret themselues pag. 108 or how do they knowe that men do not examine themselues Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision Admonition The fifth Then they ministred with common (a) Act. 2. 46. Act. 20. 7. vsual bread now with water cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their god of the altar Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. 2. The place you alleage Act. 2. which is this And they continued Of bread vsed in the cōmumon dayly with one accord in the temple breaking bread at home did eate their meate together vvith gladnesse and singlenesse of heart maketh as much for your purpose as it maketh for the Papistes halfe Communion for they alleadge it to proue that the Supper may be ministred with bread only But learned interpreters especially M. Caluine denye this place to be mente of the ministration of the supper how soeuer it is vnderstanded it doth not necessarily proue that the Sacrament was then ministred in common and vsuall breade for there is no mention made of the kinde of breade Yf any thynke better of one kynde of breade than of an other in the ministration of the Sacramente it is theyr erroure and derogateth nothyng from the order of administration M. Caluin in his Institutions cap. 19. sect 72. touchyng this ma ter writeth on this sorte Caeterùm in manum accipiant fideles necne inter se diuidant an singuli quod sibi datum fuerit edant calicem in diaconi manu reponant an proximo tradant Caluins opinion of y e kind breade panis sit fermentatus an azymus vinum rubrum an album nihil refert haec indifferentia sunt in ecclesiae libertate posita But vvhether the faythfull take it in their handes or no vvhether they deuide it among them selues or euerye one eate that vvhiche is giuen vnto them vvhether they gyue the cuppe to the Deacon or deliuer it to hym that is nexte vvhether the breade be leauened or vnleuened the vvyne redde or vvhyte it makes no matter These be indifferente thyngs and put in the libertie of the Churche Alexander lyued Anno. III. and was a good and godlie Bishop it Alexanders institution is reported in some writers that he appoynted vnleauened breade to be vsed in the Euchariste bycause that Chryste hymselfe vsed the same accordyng to the lawe written Exod. 12. Deuteron 16. But that he broughte in wafer cakes or appoynted any certayne forme of breade you can not proue neyther dothe any credible authour wryte it Io. Whitgifte To all this there is not one word answered Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. The truth is that it skils not what kynde of bread is vsed leuened or vnleuened so it be bread although it were to be wished for the auoydyng of superstition that common and vsuall breade were vsed Usual bread and also that the forme were altered and the quantitie
that is to compell vsed agaynst suche as refuse to communicate I thinke in déede the especiall quarell is their owne bicause they haue separated them selues from the Churche and woulde not be constrayned to communicate with vs but they make their doctrine generall therby to cloke their intent Wherefore whether they do it to gratifie the Papists or no it may be doubted but certayne it is that the Papists could not haue had better Proctours Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saythe wee be worthy of for shewing our selues as he fayth so good patrons of the Pap stes he hathe giuen vs well to vnderstande what it shoulde be if he were the paymaster but as we serue the Lorde in this worke so we looke for rewarde at his hande not fearing but that the Lorde will in the ende giue suche blessing vnto our labours as we shall not neede greatly to eare at the handes of those whiche God hath placed in authoritie the rewarde which you do so often call for Io. Whitgifte Surely that ée you should looke for at my hands that it behoueth a Christiā man so giue vnto suche as continue in disturbing the Churche and yet peraduenture shoulde it not be by the twentie parte so sharpe as the fee that you woulde bestowe vpon me if it were in your power Howbeit I commit my selfe to him by whome hitherto I haue béene protected notwithstanding all the deuises and practises of slaunderous tongues and hatefull countenances and I nothing doubte but that in the ende God will turne all to his glory and profite of the Churche ¶ Of playne and simple ministring and receyuing of the Communion Chap. 3. Admonition The twelfth They ministred the Sacraments playnely we pompeously with singing pyping surplesse and cope wearing The thirtenth They simply as they h Co. 11 23 receyued it from the Lorde We sinfully mixed with mans inuentions and deuises Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. This is a very slender reason to proue that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministred bicause there is singing pyping surplesse and Cope when you shewe your reasons agaynst that pompe whiche is nowe vsed in the celebration of that Sacrament you shall heare what I haue to saye in defense of the same I thinke that there is nothing vsed in the administration thereof that dothe in any respecte contaminate it or make it impure As for pyping it is not prescribed to be vsed at the Communion by any rule that I knowe Synging I am sure you doe not disallowe beeing vsed Singing vsed in al reformed Churches in all reformed Churches and an arte allowed in Scriptures and vsed in praysing of God by Dauid Of Surplesse and Cope I haue spoken before wyl speake more hereafter as occasionis ministred There is no suche inuentions or deuises of man mixed wyth the Supper of the Lorde as can make it sinfull beeing all perteyning to edifying and to good decent order and nothing there appoynted to be done contrarie or not agreable to the Scriptures Caluine Caluine him selfe sayth in his Institutions Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those thynges vvhiche be partes of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle though Decent orders be Gods traditions they be prescribed by man yet are they Gods traditions and not mans as kneeling at solemne prayer and suche like The Supper it selfe in all poynts of any moment is ministred nowe in this Churche of Englande euen as Christ deliuered it as the Apostles vsed and as the Primitiue Churche continued the same These be all the reasons you vse to proue that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministred wherof some be impious some ridiculous and all of them vnworthy any confutation T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that whyche is conteyned in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answered before partly particularly partly when I noted the general faults of the Seruice booke especially seeing that M. Doctor wyll not defende the pyping and Organes nor no other synging than is vsed in the re rmed Churches which is in the synging of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a playne tune easy both to be song of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych bicause they can not reade can not sing with the rest of the Churche For that whiche is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplesse I haue answered before Io. Whitgifte To the moste of it you haue not answered any where and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministred haue left vntouched that is whether these things be of that weight or no that in any respect they can contaminate the sacramentes or make them impure as they b nowe vsed Neyther haue you proued or can proue that the sacraments are not ministred in this Church of Englande in all poyntes of any moment euen as Christ deliuered them the Apostles vsed them the primitiue Oecolamp in Epist. apud Gastium li. 2. de erro Catabaptist Churche continued them Touching singing piping as you cal it surplesse cope wearing I answere with Oecolampadius These things be free vnto Christians whiche holy or godly Bishops may eyther adde if it seeme vnto them conuenient and profitable for the people or take away if there be any abuse as the time requireth euen as they may also doe in other ceremonies VVe haue made no contention for externall things those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the worde of God I haue hearde no reasons as yet to improue the manner of singing vsed in this The originall cause of the pryde of the Romishe churche Churche of England neyther do I say that I allow no other singing than is vsed in other reformed Churches For I woulde not haue any Churche to arrogate that perfection vnto it selfe that it should thinke all other Churches to be bounde vnto it it was the originall cause of the pryde of the Churche of Rome I haue onely sayde that other reformed Churches allow singing which is true ¶ Of matters touching Baptisme Tract 16. Of Interrogatories ministred to infants Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition And as for baptisme it was inough with them if they i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the Minister to preach the worde and minister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories ministred to the Intant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus holy fontes inuented by Pope Pius crossing and such like peeces of Poperie which the Church of God in the Apostles tyme neuer knew and therefore not to be vsed nay which we are sure of were and are mans deuises brought in long after the
with what name those notes are called which are cyted of M. Doctor for the defense of these corruptions they are called by M. Doctors owne confession Censures which worde signifieth and implyeth as much as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take this for a generall rule throughout the whole booke of Seruice that in whatsoeuer things in controuersie M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authoritie to confirme them that those things Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate Baptisme and Communions ministerd in houses for interrogatories ministred to Infants and such lyke for so muche as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgement it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not either condemned or misliked of diuerse things in the Seruice booke we shoulde haue had the notes printed and set forth to the full This I thought in a worde to admonish the reader of Io. Whitgifte To your first cauill I haue answered before where you made the same To your seconde of master Bucers Censures though the booke be not so intituled the M. Bucers Censures vppon the first booke in king Edwardes time answere is short and plaine it was his iudgement vppon the first Communion booke in the time of king Edwarde wherein he misliked some things but alloweth both priuate Baptisme and the Communion ministred to the sicke as I before declared and you might haue remembred if your memorie had not fayled you Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 4. Unto M. Bucers authoritie I could here oppose men of as great authoritie yea the authoritie of all the reformed Churches which shal also be done afterwarde And if there were nothing to oppose but the worde of God which will haue the Sacraments ministred simplie and in that sinceritie that they be left vnto vs it is enough to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that which thy shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicitie The reasons which M. Bucer bringeth I will answere wh ch in this matter of crossing are two first that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of this vsage Li. de resurrect carnis And if this be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we shoulde mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptions which were likewise vsed in those tymes For the same Li. de corona militis Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of milke and honie and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes without proofe Crossing in that maner and forme that we vse it verie well agréeth with the simplicitie of the worde of God If it doe not so shewe any worde agaynst it Your answere to that reason is very base for it is not onely auncient but it hath continued and béene generally receyued which you allowed before as a sufficient reason for Godfathers As for milke and honie the vse of them was neyther continued long nor yet generall and therefore the reason of them and of the other is not lyke Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135 Sect. vlt. But here I will note the cause wherevppon I suppose this vse of crossing came vp in the Primitiue Churche whereby shall appeare howe there is no cause nowe why it it should be reteyned if there were any why it shoulde be vsed in the Primitiue Churche It is knowne to all that haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories that the Heathen did obiect to the Christians in tymes past in reproche that the God which they beleeued of was hanged vpon a Crosse. And they thought good to testifie that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God by the often vsing of the signe of the Crosse which carefulnesse and good mynde to keepe amongest them an open profession of Christ crucifyed although it be to be commended yet is not this meanes so for they might otherwise haue kept it and with lesse daunger than by this vse of crossing and if they thought the vse of the Crosse to be the best meanes yet they shoulde not haue beene so bolde as to haue brought it into the holy Sacrament of Baptisme and so mingle the ceremonies and inuentions of men with the Sacramentes and institution of God And as it was brought in vpon no good grounde so the Lord left a marke of his curse of it and whereby it might be perceyued to come out of the forge of mans brayne in that it beganne forthwith while it was yet in the swadling cloutes to be superstitiously abused For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same booke de Corona militis that the Christians had such a superstition in it that they woulde doe nothing nor take nothing in hande vnlesse they had crossed them when they went out when they came in when they sat or lay downe and when they rose and as Superstition is alwayes strengthned and spreddeth it selfe with the time so it came from crossing of men vnto crossing of euerie thing that they vsed Wherevpon Chrysostome commendeth the crossing of the Cuppe before a man drinke Vpon the 1. Tim. 4. cap. and of the meate before it was eaten But if it were graunted that vppon this consideration which I haue before mencioned the auncient Christians did well yet it followeth not that wee shoulde so doe for we liue not amongest those Nations whiche doe cast vs in the teeth or reproche vs with the Crosse of Christ. If we liued amongst the Turkes it were an other matter and then there might peraduenture some question be whether we shoulde doe as they did and hauing the same sore vse the same playster But nowe we liue among the Papistes that doe not contemne the crosse of Christ but which esteeme more of the woodden crosse than of the true crosse of Christ which is his sufferings we ought nowe to doe cleane contrariewise to the olde Chrystians and abolishe all vse of these crosses for contrarie diseases must haue contrarie remedyes if therefore the olde Christians to delyuer the crosse of Christ from contempt did often vse the crosse the Christians nowe to take away the superstitious estimation of it ought to take away the vse of it Io. Whitgifte I thinke your supposition in parte to bée true I am also perswaded that the originall cause of vsing this signe was lawfull and good and yet the thing if selfe afterwardes abused and the cause of vsing is cleane altered and wholy conuerted to superstition but the abuse béeing taken away I sée no cause why it may not be vsed in Baptisme in that manner and forme as it is in this Churche of Englande that is In token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the fayth of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner agaynst sinne the worlde
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
poynte wherein the question especially lyeth whiche is whether this function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the Churche And it is to be obserued by the waye that whereas there are dyuers sorts of aduersaries to this discipline o the Church M. Doctor is amongst the worste For there be that saye that thys order maye be vsed or not vsed nowe at the lybertie of the Churches But M. Doctor sayth that thys order is not for these times but onely for those tymes when there were no Christian Magistrates and so dothe flatly pynche at those Churches whiche hauing Christian Magistrates yet notwithstanding reteyne this order still Io. Whitgifte I say so still and I am able to defende my saying agaynst al that you haue shewed to the contrarie And yet do I not pinche at any Church that vseth it if there be any such so that they haue the consent of the ciuill Magistrate who may if he will depart from his right abridge himself of the authoritie cōmitted vnto him by God But he néede not so do except he list and whether it be wel done or no I will not determine this I am well assured of that in a Monarchie in a kingdome such as this Realme of England is it can not be practised without vntollerable contention extreme confusion except you could deuise to make euery seueral parish a kingdome within it selfe and exempt it from all ecclestastical ciuill iurisdiction of Prince Prelate whomsoeuer which vndoubtedly may séeme to be your séeking as will appeare hereafter Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. vlt. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. And to the ende that the vanitie of this distinction which is that there ought to be Seniors or Auncients in the times of persecution not of peace vnder tyrants not vnder christian Magistrates may appeare the cause why these Seniors or auncients were appoynted in the Church is to be considered which must needes be graunted to be for that the Pastor not beeing able to ouersee al himself to haue his eyes in euery corner of the church places where y e Churches abode might be helped of the Auncients Wherin the wonderful loue of God towardes his churche doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of his did not content himselfe to appoynt one onely ourseer of euery churche but many ouer euery churche And therefore seeing that the Pastor is nowe in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian Magistrate not able to ouersee al himselfe nor his eyes can not be in euery place of the parish present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well nowe as in the tyme of persecution as wel vnder a christian Prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an Auncient or Senior is required Onlesse you will say that God hath lesse care of his church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate than he hath in the time of persecution and vnder a tyrante Io. Whitgifte I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution when there is no christian Magistrate not that there ought of necessitie to be God hath prouided the ciuill Magistrate and other gonernours to punishe and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church who hath his officers and deputies in euery place for that purpose neyther may the Pastor or any other to whome that charge is not committed by the ciuill magistrate vsurpe that office vnto them selues Wherefore that cause by you alleaged is no cause at all why there should be any suche Seniors where there are christian Magistrates neyther is that kinde of gouernment any parte of the Pastors charge The Pastor if he be a méete man is able to o al that that is required of a Pastor else might it be sayd which you before denied that God appoynted offices functiōs and gaue not sufficient gifts to execute do them Neyther can it be sayd that God hath esse care of his Church when he placeth ciuill and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors than when he placeth Seniors and leaueth it destitute of Christian Mastrates For one of the most ingular benefites that God bestoweth on his Churche in this worlde is that he giueth vnto it christian Kings Princes from whose office and authoritie whosoeuer doth detract and withdrawe we any thing iniurieth the ordinance of God and sheweth him selfe vnthankfull for so great a benefite Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. In deede if so be the Auncientes in the time of persecution vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplied the roome of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things whych belonged vnto him then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate beeing i the churche the office of the Senior or at the least so muche as he exercised of the office of a magistrate should haue ceased But when as the auncient neyther dyd nor by any maner might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrante than vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the churche the elder shoulde be therefore thrust out (*) Where finde you this in all the scriptures For the Elders office was to admonish seuerally those that did amisse to comforte those which he sawe weake and shaking and to haue neede of comforte to assist the Pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or mylder as the faultes required also to assiste in the suspentions from the supper of the Lorde vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that partie which had confessed him self to haue offended or else if he remayned stubborne to assist him in the excommunication These were those things which the Elder dyd which for so muche as they may do as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the time of peace as in the time of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of Elders there is no distinctiō in the times of peace and persecution of a christian Prince and of a tyrant Io. Whitgifte I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i stifie this office that you The office ascri ed to Seniors 〈◊〉 the gistrate o his authoriti in ecclesiasticall matters héere appoynt vnto Seniors In so weightie a matter in my iudgement you shoulde haue done well to haue vsed some authoritie of scripture or other auncient wryter The Admonition sayth that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers to consult to admo sh to correct to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Which if it be true I pray you what authoritie remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall and Churche matters In d ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church
haue one kinde of gouernment in the Churche and an other in the common wealth seing that God hath committed the chief care of them both to one and the self same person Thirdly I denie your antecedent that is that a popular or Aristocraticall qinde of gouernyng the churche doth more easyly decline into their contaries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate for men being in persecution and in dayly expectation of death are not so desirous to procure vnto themselues authoritie dominion as they be in the time of peace and prosperitie Moreouer vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution those that be appoynted gouernours of the Church be but for a time only and during the pleasure of such as appointed them and therefore can not vsurpe any vnlawfull iurisdiction ouer the rest against their willes In such times of the Church rather disobedience and stubbornesse in the common sort than tyrannie or oppression in the gouernours is to be feared Surely you would fayne haue reason for your popular cause if you could tell where to fynde it And lette the Reader note the myght of this your reason the popular and Aristocratical kind of gouernment may more easyly decline to their contraries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate therfore y e gouernmēt of the church must be popular or Aristocratical rather vnder a Christian magistrate thā vnder a tyrant Nowsoeuer the antecedent is true there is no sequele in the argument For vnder a tyrant necessitie doth driue the Church oftentymes to one of these two kindes of gouernment but when there is a Christian Magistrate God hath appointed it to bée subiect to him Chap. 2. the eleuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 1. Besides this in the time of persecution all assemblies of diuers together were dangerous put them all in hazard of their life which did make those assemblies therfore if the pastor alone might haue ordred and determined of things perteining to the church by himself it had ben lesse danger to him more saftie for others of the churche And therfore if the seniors were then thoughte meere to gouern the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger muche more ought they to be vnder a Christiā prince when they may mete together without danger Io. Whitgifte These be the homeliest reasons that euer I hearde the lightest to be vsed in so waightie a matter For first the Seniors might as safely méet together in the tyme of persecution to exercise discipline as the whole church to heare the word of God to pray Secondly it was not so daungerous for foure or fiue to méet together Thirdly no daunger ought to be feared when a man séeketh to do his dutie Fourthly what kind of reason cal you this the Seniors may with lesse daūger méet together to execute their fuuctions vnder a Christian Prince than vnder a tyrant therfore there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant I statly denie the argument For vnder a tyrant the churche must haue that kinde of gouernment that it may most conueniently enioy with what daunger so euer it be ioyned vnder a Christian Magistrate it must be subiecte to his authoritie and gouerned by him seing that God hath cōmmitted vnto him the chief care gouernment therof Wherfore the office of Seniors is nothing necessarie where ther is a Christian magistrate but it is vsurpation rather of the office of the Magistrate and a detracting from his authoritie neyther hathe God in any place of the Scriptures commaunded obedience to those your Seniors or described their office but he hath done both expressely touching the ciuill Magistrate Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 2. M. Doctor procedeth and sayth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or towne This gouernment by Seniors is not only in one citie but also hath bin of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the prinutiue Churches and therfore not onely in one realme but almost thoroughout the whole worlde and therfore the large spreading of the Churche can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth stil in the peace aud persecution of the churche and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So myghte one reason agaynste the lawfull estate of a Monarchie for he might say that although the rule of one be needful and conuement in a houshold yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme Io. Whitgifte If you will so deuide these seueral cities and Churches in one kingdome that they be not vnder one gouernoure ruled by the same lawes members of one kingdome but euery one of them as it were a common wealth within it selfe as it is in Scon spoil 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seuerall Churches within one kingdome in the time of persecution then it is true that you say and in this case were the primitiue Churches and so were the Churches in Fraunce But when as all the Townes and Churches in one kingdome be subiect as wel in causes Ecclesiastical as ciuil to one prince ruled by the same lawes c. then can you not establish this your Seigniorie without great confusion and vntollerable iniurie to the minister of God I meane the Christian Magistrate The authoritie of the Master of the housholde ouer his family derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Prince but doth confirme and establish it rather But the authoritie of your Seniors in euery congregation spoyleth the prince of his Iurisdiction and maketh him subiect where he ought to be ruler and therefore your reason is not like Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 3. To be short saith he when he can say no more it cannot be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papists Atheists and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when ther were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to saye that Papists and Atheists be of the Church and I loue not as M. Doctor both to vse often reperition but if there be now moe hypocrites and other wicked and vnruly persons in the Churche than there were in the time of persecution which I will not denie then there is greater cause noro why there should be Seniors in euery Church than there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and help hath the pastor neede to haue both to find out their disorders and also when they haue found them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censutes of the Church which
standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Io. Whitgifte What M. Doctor was able to say more was vnknowne to you If he woulde alledge as vaine reasons as you do and spende paper in vttering his owne fansies without eyther scripture or other authorities as your vsuall manner is he would at the least haue séemed to say much as you do who indéede say nothing at all I say againe that there be in the Churche that is in the externall societie of the Tract 3 cap. 6 diuisi 2. 4. The Magistrate may better 〈◊〉 offenders thaÌ„ the Semors Gual 1. cor Church both Papists Atheists drunkards c. and your deniall of it I haue shewed before to be vaine I say surther that those and such like offenders may best be reformed by the ciuill Magistrate and by corporall punishment as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them For as M. Gualter sayth They which cannot be brought into order by the authoritie of a lawfull magistrate and by lawes will much lesse suffer themselues to be punished by the commaundement of Seniors or of an Ecclesiasticall senate whome with all their solemnitie they will laugh to scorne Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. vlt. Afterwarde he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parishe in Englande fit for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page wher he also addeth Pastors asking where may be gotten such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church bycause fit men are not to be gotten in all parishes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that for asmuch as we haue not fit and able Pastors for euery Churche that therfore we ought to haue no able Pastor in any Church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able Pastors in as many places as they may be gotten how can he denie that we should haue Elders in those Churches where fitte men maye be had Io. Whitgifte The question is necessarie and cannot be so shifted of But you are still like vnto Difference betweene the necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors your selfe The reason of hauing Pastors of hauing Seniors is nothing like For the office of a Pastor is perpetuall so is not the office of your Senior Pastors be necessarie in the Church of Christ as well for the administration of the sacraments as for the preaching of the word and other Ecelesiasticall functions so be not Seniors The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures but commaunded also shew where the office of your Senior is so The office of a Pastor derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate but the office of your Seniors spoyleth him of the one halfe and in a manner of the whole as shall hereafter more plainly appeare Wherefore this may well be true that although suche Pastors as are to be wished cannot be prouided for euery place yet there must be suche as may be conueniently come by But the same is not true in Seniors being neyther necessary nor where a Chistian Magistrate is profitable but the contrary And these reasons will serue to denie that of Seniors which we grauÌ„t of Pastors séeing the office of a Pastor is commaunded as necessarie and perpetuall and not the office of a Senior Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2. And I say further where we haue an expresse commaundement layd vpon vs to do a thing there all disputations must cease of hardnesse of impossibilitie of profyte or else of peace For first God hathe not commaunded any orders in his Churche whiche are impossible and if they seeme hard it must be remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so hard which diligence and trauaile to bring it to passe will not ouercome whiche thing if it be proued true in worldly affayres the truth thereof will much more appeare in the matters perteyning vnto God considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters which are otherwise hard to be compassed he will in his owne matters and matters perteyning to his glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hilies although they be neuer so high playne the ways be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh a way tracked and easy to go in and to walke towardes that kingdome wherevnto he calleth vs. Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course to no purpose For firste you shoulde haue proued The office of 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 com that the office of your Seniors is commaunded which I vtterly denie Then should you haue declared that the same commaundement is perpetuall for many thinges are commaunded in the new testament which be not perpetnall as the washing of féete Iohn 13. to abstayne à sanguine suffocat Act. 15. to elect and choose wydowes to 〈◊〉 13. 〈◊〉 15. 〈◊〉 5. minister in the Churche 1. Timo. 5. and suche lyke So that you haue craftily passed ouer two principall poyntes and those whiche oughte to be the groundes of your cause Fyrste therefore I denye that thys office of Saeniors is commaunded any where in the new Testamente then I say that if it were commaunded yet is it but a tempor ill commaundement Those two pointes not being by you proued the words you vtter are but in vaine Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15. Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a Churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is with knowledge discretion and wisedome and there are such as S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profyt ble callyng and especially to a publike callyng God doth poure on his giftes of that person which is so called so plentyfully that he is as it were sodeynly made a newe man whych if he d ee in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimonie 1. Sam. 10. of the church with experience of their former godlie behauiour chosen to such offices of weight So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey Gods commaundement and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed but our owne eyther negligence and slouthfulnes or fearfulnesse or ambition or some other leauen which we nourishe within our selues Io. Whitgifte This lacketh proose for sometymes the churche of God is where there is neyther good Pastor nor méete gouernour as in the tyme of Elias And though God somtymes bestow his gifts vpon y â—
offended neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate M. Gualters meaning is that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu shing vice otherwise than by admonitions and reprehensions that is that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie by the word of God bycause all such authoritie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate So that if Byshops haue it they must haue it from him as it is in this Churche of England And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues but those must be appoynted by the magistrate and do all at his commaundement and not vsurp any distinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate The second poynte to be noted is when he sayth that Christian princes must subiecte The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer themselues to the Churche submitte their scepters throw downe their crownes before the Churche c. the whiche kind of speach the Pope himselfe vseth and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete And although T. C. seeme to mislike this excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s il whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae so Pag. 140. in the latter end that he woulde haue the Prince subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche and throw downe hir crowne before them that is to be con ent to be ruled and gouerned to be punished and corrected to be excommunicated and absolued by their discretion and at their pleasure This no doubt is his meaning neyther can it otherwise be for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche except it please master Pastor who is the chéefe and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie and make hym one of them and yet must the Pastor be his superior and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations and to direct him in matters of discipline and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors And yet now I remember my selfe the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie for T. C. al ttle Pa. 146. sect 1. after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic ll so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince vnder gouernment no gouernoure in matters perteyning to the Church And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection though it be most Gualter true and I will iustify it so to be I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affirmeth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle saying there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors and an Ecclesiasticall senate that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates if they at any time do not their duty And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie for they would gladly be in hand with magistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them The third point is in this that he would haue the gouernment of the common wealth The Replyer seeketh the uerthrow of monarchtes and the common wealth it selfe framed to the Churche and the gouernmente thereof as the hangings are made fit for the house whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of in the Church as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before Now the lawes of man will beare this I knowe not but I am well assured the Christ the Gospell o enin les so 〈◊〉 law of God will not suffer it For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouernment and ciuill policie neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes for S. Peter sayth 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi umanae propter dominum siue Reg 1. 1. Pet. 2. c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake whether it be vnto the king as to the superior And so Paule 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for 1. Timo. 2. kings which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church But I will not amplify this matter Let such consider of it to whome it doth specially perteine This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth but I denie the argumente and your similitude of house and hangings dothe not proue it All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes being also the Churches of God declare the contrary neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner but only among the Anabaptists Of like weyghtis your other reasō which is this Good men that is the Church are as it were the foundation of the worlde the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation therefore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand but the argumente is without all fashion and it is neyther true in matter nor forme For how pr e y u that good menne are the foundation of the worlde The fyrste menne were gréeuous transgressoures the moste of them The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them Moreouer the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde and so doth the common wealth and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men To conclude if all this were true yet dothe not the argumente followe For the foundation giueth strength but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it For a man maye make alterations in his house though he doe not once moue or
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
election consequently y e throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together with the church the Eldership hath the principal swaye For y e decision of controuersies when they rise it may apeare in the. 15. of the Actes y t the Presbyterie or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also Now it remaineth here that wheras M. Doctor saith that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again doth perteme only to the minister y e I shew that the presbyterie or eldership the whole church also hath interest in the excommunication consequently in the absolution or restoring vnto the church But here by the waye it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting noted that in saying that it belongeth to y e minister he confesseth y e disorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and giuen to the Byshop and his officers Io. Whitgifte Of Election of ministers so of their reiection throwing out sufficient hath bin spoken Tract 3. before your manner of electing by better reasons confuted than it was by you proued for the decisions of controuersies when they arise it may appeare in the. 15. of y e Acts that the best way is to call Synodes Councels of learned mē as it was there practised not to cōmit such matters to the pastor of euery seuerall parish certaine of his neighbours whom you call the Seigniorie for if it had bin so what néeded Paule and Barnabas haue takē so long a iourney frō Antioche to Ierusalē for y e deciding of their cōtrouersies séeing y t they the Seigniorie if there had bin any such might haue ended the same at home in Antioche This place vndoubtedly ouerthroweth your Seigniorie except now you wil take it as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftētimes takē for a Synode or cōuocatiō of bishops priests so y e not your Seigniorie which is in euery parishe but general or prouincial Coūcels Synodes must haue y e deciding of cōtrouersies else as I sayd before why should Paule and Barnabas come from Antioche to Ierusalem to haue their controuersies determined Your note by the way is not worth a rushe for when I say y t the execution of discipline is onely committed to the ministers of the word you cannot therevpon cōclude that euery minister hath authoritie to exercise it in the church It is one thing to saye only ministers haue authoritie to excōmunicate to saye that all ministers haue authoritie so to do only ministers may be Bishops yet all ministers be not Bishops only Lawyers may be Iudges yet all Lawyers be not Iudges only citezens may be Aldermen Sherifes Maiors yet all be not so wherfore by the waye here you ouersot your selfe And yet I thinke that all ministers haue power to excommunicate if the Church thinke it good to committe that authoritie vnto them Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minister but chiefly to the Eldership and Pastor it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition alleage out of S. Mathew which place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. churche Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before how that place of Mathew is to be vnderstanded what it is to tell the Church namely either to reproue the partie openly before the congregation or else to complaine to such as haue authoritie in the church to whome y e executing of discipline is committed which is by the order of the church of Englande the Bishop And therefore the Bishop alone both by the lawes of God and of this churche of England which hath giuen vnto him by consent in Parliament that authoritie may exercise this discipline Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Then it was sayd tel l Math. 18. 17 the church now it is spoken complayne to my Lordes grace Primate and Metropolitane of all Englande or to his inferiour my Lorde Byshop of the Diocesse if not to hym shewe the Chauncellour or Officiall or Commissarie or Doctour Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 135. Sect. 1. As it was saide then so ought you and may you say now in priuate offences yf priuate admonitions wyll not serue then muste you declare them to the church either by reprehending of them publikely before the whole congregation if you be called therevnto for that is Churche signifieth those that haue authoritie in the churche one kynde of telling the churche or else by complayning to suche as haue authoritie in the church for in that place of Mathewe as all learned interpretours both olde and newe do determine the churche signifieth such as haue authoritie in the churche Therefore when you complayne to my Lordes grace Lorde Bishop of the Dioces or their Chauncellors Commissaries c. You tell the church that is suche as be appointed to be publike Magistrates in the churche according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. It is moste absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstāded either my Lordes grace or the Byshop of the Dioces or the Chauncellor or Commissarie And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayde to complayne vnto the churche whiche is the more vntollerable for that beyng so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe at that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by no reason by no lyke phrase of scripture by no authoritie of any Godly or approued wryter olde or newe whiche notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in his studie so paynefully whē he can haue but one against twenty and but a sillable where he cannot haue a sentence Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed sufficient authoritie for my saying euen the consent of all learned interpreters who by the church in that place vnderstande such as haue chiefe authoritie in the church which in this church of Englād as I haue sayd are bishops Chrysostome Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. sayth as much as I do so that it néede not to séeme so straunge that it should astonishe all thee heare it his wordes be these Dic ecclesiae Praesulibus scilicet Praesidentibus Tell the churche that is the Prelates and Presidents But you thinke to ouerlode me with vnséemely wordes howbeit that will not carry away the cause I am so vsed to them by you and yours both in speache and writing that I estéeme them now I thanke God as I do the dust of my féete If I seeke the writers so diligently and tourne the commentaries in my studie so painfully why do you so oft accuse me of ignorance wante of reading taking my pleasure Ex ore tuo te iudico c. mendacem
watring the grounde with the droppes of his teares he asked forgiuenesse But this proueth not that the people had anie authoritie in excommunicating of him In this Church of Englande though the Bishop alone doe excommunicate Excommunicate persons not receyued before publike confession and repentance yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious cryme is not receyued into the Churche againe before he haue made a publike confession in the open Congregation and asked pardon and forgiuenesse of his offence Wherefore there is nothing yet alledged of any such force to proue that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision Admonition Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4 ▪ 6. c. The sixtenth In that the Lord Bishops their Suffraganes Archdeacons Chauncelors Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials Proctors Doctors Sumners and such rauening rablers take vppon them whiche is most horrible the rule of Gods Churche spoyling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his owne flocke giuen by the worde thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order whiche Christ hath left to his Church and which the primitiue Church hath vsed 1. Tim. 4. 14 ▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 220. Sect. 1. And first you shewe yourselfe greatly offended that the Pastor is spoyled of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer his flocke therfore you brust out into these wordes of heat rauening rablers horrible sacrllegiously and such like It had bene well if you had tolde vs what that lawfull iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke giuen by the worde had beene For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose do not plainly enough set out that matter In the. 18. of Mathew vers 17. after certaine admonitions in priuate offences Christ sayth Dir Ecclesiae tell the Church In whiche place as I tolde you before the Church doth signifie such as haue authority in the Church or else publike reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto It giueth not any peculiar iurisdiction to the Pastor for any thing that I can learne And in the same Chapter 18. verse where Christ sayth vvhat soeuer ye binde on earth shall be bounde in heauen c. according to your iudgement vttered before it is ment of the whole Church and not of the Pastor onely You haue before denied that one man can excommunicate and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages he speaketh of this thing afresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehearsall of the places of the Admonition asking after his accustomed maner of confuting what maketh this or what proueth that onely whereas he sayde before and proued as he thought that the Minister had onely to doe with excommunication beeing pressed there by the Admonition eyther to defende or renounce his Chauncelors c. He had rather denie both the truth and himselfe than he woulde haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Poperie threatning the ouerthrowe of the whole Churche and seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and ydlenesse of a fewe to be driuen out of the Church Of the which I will vpon occasion speake a worde if first I shewe that the vse of the auncient Church hath beene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence thereof shoulde come from the gouernours and elders of the Church vnto whome that did especially apperteyne Although I cannot posse by that which maister Doctor sayeth that for so much as the Authours of the Admonition had alledged the wordes tell the Churche to proue the interest of the Churche in excommunication that therefore they coulde not vse the same to proue the interest of the Pastor as who shoulde say that the Pastor is not one of the Churche But of the absurditie of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and howe all men doe see the vanitie of this reason that bycause the people haue an interest by this place therefore the Pastor hath none Io. Whitgifte I do indéed speake of this matter there againe after a sort for I am driuen vnto it by the order of the Admonition But in all those words there by me vttered touching excōmunicatiō I do not once aske what maketh this or what maketh that as you charge me although I might iustly vse these kinde of questions as sufficient answeres to such vnskilfull quotations as they paint theyr margent with and somtimes indéed I make such demaundes but it is to shewe the fondnesse of their allegations I defende no Chauncelors c. that vsurpe any office wherevnto they be not lawfully called but I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confute them least thereby séeing the weaknesse of our reasons they be animated rather to procéede than perswaded to leaue of I doe not thinke that Chauncellours ought to excommunicate with this kinde of excommunication that wée talke of except they bée Ministers and so muche haue I vttered in my Answere but I will not disquiet the Church for it by séeking reformation extraordinarily neyther will I bée wilfull if I can heare any sounde reasons to remoue me from this perswasion wherfore you doe in this cause and in this place vniustly charge me The place in the eightéenth of Sainct Mathew is vnderstāded of those to whom the discipline of the Churche is by the authoritie of the Churche committed that is in this churche of Englande the Bishop And therfore that place can not proue that there is any iniurie done to the Pastor or that hée is spoyled of his lawful iurisdiction and this is the effect of my answere whereat you only cauill as your nature is I saye in déede that this place was before alleaged in the Admonition to proue that the whole Churche shoulde excommunicate and not one man onely and therefore I sée not howe the same place maye aptly bée alleadged to proue anye iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke séeyng it gyueth to the flocke equall iurisdiction with the Pastor and not to the Pastor any superioritie ouer them if the interpretation vsed in the Admonition be true Let the Reader consider the wordes of my Answere to the Admonition and trie whether there be any suche absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors to make the Scripture so pliable to your fansies and the same place to serue as many turnes as you lyst Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. past the middst But I come to shewe the vse of the primitiue Churche in this matter wherof we haue a manifeste This place of Tertullian is verie corruptly alleaged as will appeare ▪ testimonie in Tertullian If sayeth he there be any whiche haue committed suche a Tertull. in Apol.
sufficient to ground any certaine doctrine vpon being of faith and of saluation as you haue saide before the kinde of gouernment to be Wherefore it is you that disturbe and seeke to ouerthrow the order of gouernment appointed by God and therefore in the end you must looke to be ouerthrowen your selfe To your imagination of transforming simple vnap and vnlearned men to an aptnesse and 〈◊〉 of gouernment if your platforme were placed I will only answere that which Master Bullinger did to a fantasse of the Anabaptists not much vnlike You imagine and conceyue in your minde those things which neuer haue beene nor are extant and shall neuer hereafter be Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The nintéenth What should we speake of the Archbishops Court sith all men know it and your wisdome cannot but see what it is As all other Courtes are subiect to this by the Popes To proue that the regiment of the Church should be spirituall ade ph 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13 1. Tim. 1. 2. Heb. 10. 30 〈◊〉 yea and by statute of this Realme yet vnxepealed so is it the filthie quaue ire poysoned plash of all the abhominations that do infect the whole Realme We speake not of licences graunted out of this Court to marrie in forbidden tymes as in Lent in Aduent in the gang week when ban ers and belles with the Priest in his surplesse singing Gospels and making crosses raungeth about in many places vpon the ember dayes and to forbidden persons in exempt places We make no mention of licences to eate white meate and flesh in Lent and that with a safe conscience for rich men that can buy them with mony nor we say nothing how dearly men pay for them s for dispensations with beneficed voyes tollerations for non reudents bulles to haue two benefices to haue three to haue more and as many as they list or can get these are so common that all godly and good men are compelled with griefe of heart to crie out vpon such abhominations We omit excommunication for money absolution for the same and that by absoluing one for another which how contrarie it is to the Scriptures the complaints of many learned men by propositions in open scholes proposed by wrytings in printed bookes set out and by preaching in open 〈◊〉 haue bene sufficiently witnessed To conclude this ilthie Court hath full power togither with the authoritie of this pettie Pope Metropolitane and primate of all England to dispence in all causes wherein the Pope was wont to dispence vnder which are conteyned more cases and causes than we are able to recken As for my Lordes grace of Yorke we deale not with him We referre him to that learned Epistle which Beza wrote vnto him about these matters Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 228. Sect. 1. 2. pag. 229. I thinke this Court to be necessarie for the state of this Church and Realme and if there be abuses in it either in the law it selfe or in the persons I wish it were reformed But the whole order of the Court is not therefore to be condemned no more than it is of other Courts which cannot be missed and yet haue abuses in them I confesse my selfe to haue little experience in such matters and therefore I will speake the lesse thereof As I do mislike that there should be any time forbidden to marry in for that can haue no good meaning or any dispensations for boyes to keepe benefices or excommunications and absolutions for money for one man to be absolued for another and if there be any other such like abuse so do I vtterly condemne your vnseemely and vnchristian termes as filthie quauemire poysoned plash of al abhominatiōs filthie Court especially cōsidering wherof they be spoken to whom and by whom they argue a scolding nature a stomack boyling with contempt of lawes The Church aundered by the Admonitors superiors Neither can I suffer you to slaunder not that Court but this Church with manifest vntruthes as you do when you say that banners belles and making of crosses be allowed to be vsed in the gangweeke and that the Archbishops court hath full power to dispence in all causes wherin the Pope was wont to dispence which both be most vntrue I thinke in dispensations this Court goeth no further than the lawes of the Realme do permit Agreeable to this spirit is your cōtemtuous speach vsed to both the Archbishops mē to be reuerēced not only in the respect of their yeres and authoritie but of their singular wisdome grauitie learning and sound religion also Howbeit you reuerence them as you do all other that be in authority except some whome you do but seeke to vse to bring your intentes to passe I will say no more I thinke you haue abused maister Beza with your false reportes Beza and others used by salse information which hath caused him to write otherwise than he woulde do if he knewe the whole state of the controuersie So you haue also abused other notable learned men and caused them to wryte according to yourfansie which since that time beeing truely informed haue by their letters which are to be seene both condemned your cōtentiousnesse and their owne to much credulitie But our faith and Church dependes neither vpon M. Beza nor any other man neither do they looke for any such prerogatiue But still you are without the booke T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 1. In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbishops Court necessarie but bringeth no reason and further confesseth himselfe ignorant of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come vnlesse it be from thence that he liketh of al things be they neuer so euill which the Admonition misliketh The rest which M. Doctor hath of this matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowne what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excep ed it remayneth in his former effect Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed better reasons for it than you haue done agaynst it as yet For it 〈◊〉 made 〈◊〉 e ouerthrowne but by very strōg reasons is a reason for me sufficient that the Court is established by the authoritie of the Prince and the whole Realme and fit it is that very strong reasons should be vsed before this reason be reiected For in matters of gouernment place must be giuen to the gouernors law makers and to the state except there can be shewed inuincible reasons to the contrarie whereof you haue not in this place vttered one Of Deacons and Wydowes Tract 19. Of the office of Deacons Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. It was before shewed that of the gouernors of the Church there were some whose charge perteyned vnto the whole Church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the Church that is
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
straight a foote in it with an vniuersall hazarde of their goods and lyues that we shall not escape vnlesse we repent speedily of our coldnesse and halting in religion and vnwillingnesse I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger but not to leese some of our wealth and honour for the obteyning of a through reformation of the Church and aduauncement of the glory of the Lorde Finally he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ Luk. 13. maketh where he sheweth that those cities are not alwayes the greatest sinners or those whome God is most angry with which haue the heauiest iudgements executed vpon them but that therby the Lord calleth vs to repentance otherwise that we shall likewise perishe This had beene more fit for our estate to haue beene sayde than to haue after a sort (*) God roote out of you this malicious spirite which deliceth in slaunders insulted vpon the afflicted and daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our miserie and our nakednesse Io. Whitgifte I haue sayde truely that we are not bounde to their examples I doe not denie No Churche may chalenge to be a patern necessarie to be followed but that examples may be followed and one ought to followe an other in that which is good and conuenient But I haue shewed before that one Churche is not bound of necessitie in all things to followe an other onely the Church of Rome is so arrogant and proude as to chalenge that prerogatiue I haue great cause to expostulate with you for this your vnchristian vnbrotherly and most vniust handling of me For where or in what words doe I pinche at their reformation Wherein doe I vse any insultation vpon the afflicted and agaynst them is this to pinche at them or to insult agaynst them to wishe that touching religion they were in that state and condition that Englande is to wish that vnto them that they grone for themselues Surely fleshe and bloud will hardely suffer me to put vp this iniurie But I am taught patience I thanke God and the Lorde forgiue you roote out that roote of bitternesse that is so déepe in your heart Admonition And heere to ende we desire al to suppose that we haue not attempted this enterprise for vayne glory gayne preferment or any other worldly respect Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 139. Sect. 1. I would to God you were as free from vayne glory ambition and malice and other sinister affections as you would seeme to be but no indifferent man reading your booke will so thinke of you for besides the opprobrious and vnseemely termes you vse towardes your superiours your Admonition smelleth altogither of popularitie and vayne glory Admonition Neyther yet iudging our selues so exactly to haue set out the state of the Churche reformed as that nothing more could be added or a more perfect forme and order drawne for that were great presumption to arrogate so muche vnto our selues seeing that as we are but weake and simple soules so God hath raysed vp men of profounde iudgement and notable learning Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 139. Sect 3. And yet in the beginning of your booke you call it a true platforme of a Churche reformed and I dare saye you thinke it to be as perfect a forme of a Church as al the best learned godlyest men in the worlde could frame for it is well knowne that men of your disposition thinke commonly as well of them selues as they doe of Men thinke too well of themselues any man else and better too But we graunt vnto you that you are so farre from setting downe a perfect state of a Churche reformed that you maye rather be called confounders and deformers than buylders and reformers Admonition But therby to declare our good wils towards the setting forth of Gods glory and the building vp of his Church accounting this as it were but an entrance into further matter hoping that our God who hath in vs begon this good worke will not onely in time hereafter make vs strong and able to goe forwarde therein but also moue other vpon whome he hath bestowed greater measure of his giftes and graces to labour more thorowly and fully in the same Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 140. God graunt that you maye become buylders and not destroyers I thinke in deede you haue but begonne I knowe there is other Suspected opinions behinde opinions among you whiche be not yet commonly knowne and truely I doubt that you will neuer ende but from tyme to tyme coyne newe deuises to trouble the Church vntill you haue brought that heuy plague of God vpō vs which the like kind of mē through their schismes and heresies haue brought vpon all those places almost where any of the Apostles preached and where the Gospell Domesticall dissention for runner of destruction ▪ was first planted and commonly before ruine and destruction commeth inwarde discorde and domesticall dissention The Lorde make vs thankfull for the puritie of his Gospell that we by his mercy enioy the Lorde roote out schismes and factions from among vs and eyther conuerte or confounde the authors of them The Lorde of his singular goodnesse continue our gracious Queene Elizabeth vnto vs and giue vs faythfull and obedient hearts to his worde and to hir Maiestie Amen T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproche agaynst the authors of the Admonition and calling styll as his maner is for more punishment for them which I will not bestowe the answere of Io. Whitgifte And to this ende haue I héere set my wordes downe that the Reader may vnderstande what wordes of reproche those be that you charge me with but seeing it will not please you to bestowe the answere of them I shall also be content to spare so muche labour Admonition Where as immediately after the last Parliament holden at Westminster begon in Anno. 1570. and ended Anno. 1571. the ministers of Gods holy worde and sacraments were called before hir Maiesties highe Commissioners and enforced to subscribe vnto the Articles if they would keepe their places and liuings and some for refusing to subscribe were vnbrotherly and vncharitably entreated and from their offices and places remoued May it please therfore this honorable and high Court of Parliament in consideration of the premises to take a view of suche causes as then dyd withholde and nowe dothe the foresayde Ministers from subscribing and consenting vnto those foresayde Articles by way of purgation to discharge themselues of all disobedience towards the Churche of God and their Soueraigne and by way of moste humble entreatie for the remouing away and vtter abolishing of all suche corruptions and abuses as withhelde them through which this long time brethren haue bin at vnnaturall warre and strife among them selues to the hinderance of the gospell to the ioy of the wicked and to the
griefe and dismay of all those that professe Christian religion and labour to atteyne Christian reformation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 146. 147. 148. You complayne muche of vnbrotherly and vncharitable entreating Complaynte of persecution without cause of you of remouing you from your offices and places Surely in this poynt I must compare you to certayne Heretikes that were in Augustines time who moste bitterly by sundry meanes afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Churche yet for all that cried out that they were extremely dealt with and cruelly persecuted by them or else vnto a shrewde and vngratious wyfe which beating hir husbande by hir clamorous complaynts maketh hir neighbours Persecution of the tongue beleeue that hir husbande beateth hir or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequies that dyd steale and runne away with the Priestes purse ▪ and yet cried alwayes as he ranne stay the theefe stay the theefe and thus crying escaped and yet he was the theefe him selfe You are as gentlye entreated as maye be no kinde of brotherly persuation omitted towards you most of you as yet keepe your liuings though some one or two be displaced you are offered all kinde of friendlynesse if you could be content to conforme your selues yea but to be quiet and holde your peace You on the contrary side moste vnchristianly and moste vnbrotherly bothe publikely and priuately rayle on those that shewe this humanitie towards you slaunder them by all meanes you can and moste vntruely reporte of them seeking by all meanes their discredite Agayne they as their Disobediēce allegiance to the Prince and duetie to lawes requireth yea and as some of them by othe are bounde doe execute that discipline whiche the Prince the lawe and theyr othe requireth you contrarie to all obedience duetie and othe openly violate and breake those lawes orders and statutes whiche you ought to obey and to the whiche A token of a good conscience some of you by othe is bounde If your doings proceede in deede from a good conscience then leaue that liuing and place which byndeth you to those things that be agaynst your conscience for why shoulde you striue with the disquietnesse bothe of your selues and others to keepe that liuing which by lawe you can not excepte you offend agaynst your conscience Or what honestie is there to sweare to statutes and lawes and when you haue so done contrary to your othe to breake them and yet still to remayne vnder them and enioy that place which requireth obedience and subiection to them For my parte I thinke it muche better by remouing you from your lyuings to offende you than by suffering you to enioy them to offende the Prince the lawe conscience and God And before God I speake it if I were persuaded as you seeme to be I woulde rather quietly forsake all the liuings I haue than be an occasion of strife and contention in the Church and a cause of stumbling to the weake and reioycing to the wicked I knowe God woulde prouide for me if I did it bona conscientia yea surely I woulde rather dye than be an author of schismes a disturber of the common peace and quietnesse of the Church and state There is no reformed Churche that I can heare Euery church hath a determinate order of ceremonies tell of but it hath a certayne prescript and determinate order aswel touching ceremonies and discipline as doctrine to the whiche all those are constrayned to giue their consent that will liue vnder the protection of it and why then maye not this Churche of Englande haue so in like maner Is it meete that euery man should haue his owne phansie or liue as him liste Truely I knowe not wherevnto these your dooings can tende but eyther to Anabaptisme or to meere confusion But nowe to the reasons that moue you not to subscribe to those Articles ministred vnto you by hir Maiesties highe Commissioners T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Pleasant diuinitie Doctor was disposed to make him selfe and his Reader merie but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the harpe or lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed by togither the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the thiefe that tooke away the Priests purse very familiar and homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hoppe about the house but the learned and the wyse can not daunce by this instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their liuings without iust cause to heretikes curst wyues and to theeues but all men do vnderstande how rightly What his troubles be within and in his conscience the Lorde God and he knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffreth it is not suche as he neede thus to stoupe and to grone and to blowe vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon his shoulders And if he cōplayne of the persecution of the tongue to let passe his immoderate heate of speeche whych he vseth with those that he hathe to doe withall the tongue whiche is more intemperate than his is in all his booke shall hardely be founde Io. Whitgifte And I thanke God I can be mery with the bagpype I am neyther ashamed of the Instrument nor of the countrey But what diuinitie call you this alacke poore spite at the bagpipe Surely you doe me a pleasure when you tell me of it You haue omitted nothing that by any meanes might serue you for a iest O great grauitie c. But let vs leaue puerilia pueris I knowe none of you put from your liuings without moste iuste cause if there be any iniuried that wayes God be thanked they maye finde iustice My quietnesse within my conscience I moste humbly thanke my God therefore dothe mitigate the heate of the slaunderous generation and maketh me more willing to deale agaynst that secte that can not be maynteyned without suche kinde of vncharitable and slaunderous dealing I remember what Cyprian sayth to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Ecclesiasticall Cyprian discipline is not therefore to be lefte of nor the seueritie that becommeth a Priest to be slackned bicause we are reuiled and euill spoken of c. And agayne The opprobrious speeches of the wicked ought not to moue vs so that we decline from the righte way and the sure rule seeing that the Apostle instructeth vs saying If I ▪ shoulde please men I were not the seruant of Christ. If the heate of my tongue be immoderate what shall be sayde of yours But this kinde of dealing is nothing méete for vs. Wherefore if you continue in this vayne you shall haue the best game for me T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be vnreasonable inoughe that he shoulde not giue men leaue to complayne of their troubles
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
godly and true saying that Christe hathe sanctified all waters vsed in Baptysyng to the mysticall washyng awaye of synne not ascrybing or attributyng washyng awaye of synne to the externall elemente anye otherwyse than instrumentallye or in anye other respecte than for the similitude that Sacramentes haue with the thynges whereof they bee Sacramentes for wee knowe that wycked men maye receyue these externall signes and yet remaine the members of Sathan It is certainly true that the mysticall washing away of sinne is proper to the worke God in the bloud of Christ and for that purpose you might haue alledged much more playner and directer places of Scripture than moste of these whiche you haue noted in your margent but I thinke your meaning is not therefore to condemne the outwarde signes and Sacraments as the heretikes called Messalians did Admonition They pray that all men may be saued Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 202. Sect. 3. You say we pray that all men may be saued we do so indeede and what can Prayer that all men may be saued 〈◊〉 good you alledge why we should not so do S. Paule 1. Tim. 2. sayth I exhort therefore that first of all supplications prayers intercessions and giuing of thankes be made for all men c. And adding the reason he sayth For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Sauiour vvho vvill that all men shall be saued and come vnto the knovvledge of the truth The Apostle doth here will vs in plaine words to pray for all men euen that they may be saued for there vnto tende the wordes following Io. Whitgifte To this is nothing answered Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The thirtéenth In all their order of Seruice p 1. Co. 14. 16 there is no edification according to the rule of the Apostle but confusion They tosse the Psalmes in most places like tennese balles the people some standing some walking some talking some reading some praying by themselues attend not to the Minister He againe posteth it ouer as fast as he can gallop for eyther he hath two places to serue or else there are some (*) Games of Sodome games to be played in the after noone as lying for the whetstone heathnish dauncing for the ring a Beare or a Bull to be bayted or else Iacke an apes to ride on horsebacke or an Enterlude to be played and if no place else can bee gotten it must be done in the Church c. Now the people sit now they stande vp when the olde Testament is read or the lessons they make no reuerence but when the Gospell commeth then they (*) Standing at the Gospell came from Anastatius the Pope in An. 404. all stande vp For why they thinke that to be of greatest authoritie and are ignorant that the Scriptures came from one spirite When Iesus is named then off goeth the cap and downe goeth the knees with suche a scraping on the grounde that they cannot heare a good while after so that the worde is hindered but when any other names of God are mētioned they make no curtesie at all as though the names of God were not equall or as though all reuerence ought to be giuen to the sillables We speake not of ringing when Mattens is done and (*) Accidentall abuses other abuses incident bicause we shall be answered that by the booke they are not mainteyned onely we desire to haue a booke to reforme it Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 204. Sect. 1. 205. Sect. 1. 2. This is a slaunderous vntruth And the. 1. Cor. 14. abused to A slaunder of the Communion booke confirme it Whatsoeuer S. Paule requireth in that place is vsed in that booke of Seruice for first the whole Seruice is in a tongue knowne as S. Paule there requyreth that the people may vnderstand say Amen Then are the Scriptures read ▪ the Sacraments ministered according to Christes owne institution those that bee Godly disposed persons know what a manifest vntruth this is that you here vtter But mad men women and children must haue their wordes c. If by tossing of Psalmes you meane the singing of them alternatìm then do you disallow that which is both commendable and of great antiquitie as it appeareth in an Epistle that Basilius Magnus did wryte to the Ministers in Neocaesaria where he sheweth the selfe same order of singing Psalmes to be then vsed in the Church that we vse at this day If by tossing of Psalmes like tennise balles you meane the ouer hastie reading or singing of them it is indeede to be misliked but it is no part of the booke and therefore no cause why you shoulde absteyne from subscribing to it T. C Pag. 163. Sect. 1. To passe by the prophane prouerbe here vsed which matcheth mad men and women and childr togither ▪ most vnseemely for a D. of diuinit especially handling diuine matters for the singing of Psalmes by course and side after side although it be very auncient yet it is not commendable and so much the more to be suspected for that the diuell hath gone about to get it so great authoritie partly by deriuing it from Ignatius tyme and partly in making the worlde beleeue that this ocrat 6 ▪ 8. cap. Platin. cap. Damas. Theod. 2. lib. 24. cap. came from heauen and that the Angels were heard to ng after this sort which as it is a mere fable so is it confuted by Hystoriographers whereof some ascribe the beginning of this to Damasus some other vnto Flauianus and Dioo rus From whence soeuer it came it cannot be good (*) This is slat con r. ie to that you affirme pag. 109. Sect. considering that when it is graunted that all the people may prayse God as it is in singing of Psalmes there this ought not to be restrayned vnto a fewe and where it is lawfull both with heart and 〈◊〉 to sing the whole Psalme there i is not inecte that they should sing but the one half with their heart and voyce and the other with their heart onely For where they may both with heart and voyce sing there the heart is not enough Therefore besides that incommoditie whiche cōmeth this way in that being tossed after this sort mē cannot vnderstand what is song these other two incōuemences come of this forme of singing therfore is banished in all reformed churches Io. Whitgifte To the slaunderous vntruth of the Admonition or to my answere there vnto you say nothing but passe it ouer S. Paule vsed a prophane prouerbe in very serious and diuine matters when he sayde Cretenses semper mendaces c. ad Ti. 1. and therefore it well beséemeth a Doctor of Tit. 1. itie aptly and fitly applying it But why doe you not find fault with the Authors of the Admonition who vse a more prophane prouerbe that is tossing of tennise balles in as serious a matter You confesse that singing of Psalmes by course and
realme for moste iuste consideration euen for the better gouernment of the Colledge beyng otherwise full of youth haue licensed beyng in the number of the twelue preachers chosen according to statute to continue in theyr felowships with one liuing besides to a certayne valewe If there were the like prouision in other places and the same furnished with such kinde of men the state of diuers Colledges in Cambridge would not be so tumultuous as it is Touching the parties themselues agaynst whom you so bitterly whette your The fello defended agaynst the poysoned tongue tongue vpon the same causes and quarrels you do agaynst me this I will speake vnfeynedly as I shall answere before God and the worlde they are sober honest wyse quiet men faythfull and learned preachers and that tyme of absence which is giuen vnto them by statute they do carefully bestowe in their cures and other places where there is néede according to their duetie and conscience except the necessarie gouernment of the Colledge and publike vtilitie do constrayne them to the contrarie The worste of them and he that is moste negligent dothe more good in the Churche and common wealth than you do or any of your adherentes I will not speake all that I might iustly least I shoulde seeme to flatter and in parte to commende my selfe but this is the summe none of vs refuse triall eyther of lyfe gouernment learning liuing or what soeuer is to be requyred in the ministers of God and dutifull subiectes towardes theyr Prince It is an egregious slaunder when you say they be pernicious examples of riotous feastinges c. I know the contrary and thinke not you but God will take due punishment of this your notorious malice vttered vpon priuate quarrell as it is well knowne to al this societie In déede they loue one an other agree among themselues obey lawes kéepe order labour to suppresse Schismes and this is that that whetteth your tongue and the tongues of other disordered persons agaynst them I could requite all these your harde speaches if I were disposed to deale so maliciously But I will temper my selfe desiring God not to impute these things vnto you the Reader I shall desire eyther to iudge the beste or to suspende his iudgement vntill he haue the triall The. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 225. Sect. 2. 3. You say all these come from the Pope c. It is not materiall frō whence they come so they be good profitable necessarie for the mainteyning of religion learning wise learned men but I pray you from what Pope came they or in what time did the Pope inuent them I tolde you before that such places and Colledges were in Augustines Deane allowed by S. Augustine time that he both hath the name of M. Deane and alloweth of his office If you had redde any auncient learned Authors as your writings declare you haue not then shoulde you finde that Collegiate churches be of great antiquitie euen since the yeare of our Lord. 235. But what can you speake agaynst Cathedrall churches which you may not as well speake agaynst the Colledges in the vniuersities They were not in the Apostles time neyther yet in the primitiue Barbarisme and confusion secretely intended Church must they therefore now be dissolued your meaning is belike to bring all to confusion and barbarisme You say no reformed church in the worlde knoweth them wherein I thinke you speake more than you know Can you name any reformed church that hath plucked them downe Peraduenture in diuers places where the gospell is now preached they had neuer such rewards for learning But what haue we to do in such cases with other reformed churches we haue to consider what is most meete for this church and state not to follow other as though we were children I see no cause why other reformed churches should not rather follow vs than we them seing in no respect we be inferiour to them Well to conclude your wordes be but vaine and your proofes none at all and therfore I doubt not but Cathedrall churches shall be able to withstande both your opprobrious speaches the greedinesse of all their aduersaries so long as it shall please God to blesse this land with so vertuous learned a Queene so wise and discrete counsellours T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And where he sayth it is not materiall although these Deanes Uycedeanes Canons Petycanons prebēdaries c. come from y e Pope it is as if he should say that it skilleth not although they come out of y e bottomlesse pitte For whatsoeuer cōmeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the Deuill and where he addeth this condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a Cokatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer withall then also may the things that come from the Pope the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayth that Collegiate churches are of great annciēcie he proueth not the aunciencie of the Cathedrall churches onlesse he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke with him in so small a matter and if our controuersie were of the names of these churches not of the matter I could be content to graunt his cause in this point as good as antiquitie without y e word of god which is nothing but rottēnesse could make it Io. Whitgifte This Replie neither answereth directly nor truly to any thing y t I haue set down Tract 7. For first it is vntrue that all things cōming frō an Antichristian Pope cōmeth first frō y e Deuill I haue sufficiently proued y e contrary in that portion where I speake of Good thinges may come from euill mē apparel of ministers an euill man may do some thing that is good euen as a good mā may do some thing that is euill as God doth worke y e good by y e one so doth the Deuill worke y e euill by the other Ethnikes haue made good lawes they haue appointed stipendes rewards for learning such other like good things which are profitable not to be reiected for the Authors sakes though they were members of Satan Secondly it is vntrue that Cathedrall Churches came from the Antichristian Cathe ll churches before the Antichristi l Popes The 〈◊〉 answereth not that which is demaunded Pope for I tolde you that they were in the yeare of our Lorde 235. at what tyme the Bishops of Rome were godly men and Martyres Thirdly you haue not answered my question for I demaunded from what Pope they came or in what time they were firste inuented And to this you say not one worde wherfore in effect you haue answered nothing If they be of so late a fundatiō it must néedes appeare who was the firste inuentor of them but if
that can not he founde as belike it can not then must their antiquitie be very great Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie if it be not so shewe the difference The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now than things most vnlike our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie to hide their nakednesse to keepe out the shower For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical stāding of godly learned ministers and elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y e citie or towne where such churches were for that in such great cities townes commonly there were the most learned pastors auncients therfore the townes villages rounde about in harde difficuite causes came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron e Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the countrie which the Le tes in matters perteyning to God and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Hierusalem where there was a great number of Priests Le tes and learned iudges of whom they should haue their questions dissolued and this was the first vse of Collegiate churches Io. Whitgifte True it is that in times past there was in euery citie Collegium presbyterorum cui In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉 praeerat Episcopus a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae the Senate of the churche and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche It is also euident that these Presbyteri were all Priests that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie that is in all that shyre or Diocesse therfore sayeth M. Caluine speaking Institut cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitiue church Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors Doctors for they all had the office of preaching to the people of exhorting and of correcting the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops and this is that Seigniorie wherof the auncient writers speake so much which you vntruly without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish and to consist as well of other as of Priests Ministers of the worde and although that kinde of gouernment which these churches had is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate to whom it is due and to such as by him are appointed yet is it not so cleane blotted out as you would make vs beleeue For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of auncient time the Bishop who was then and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church keepeth his authoritie still may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient in diuers p tes he can do nothing without them Moreouer diuerse of the same churches some 〈◊〉 office and some appointed by election are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉 so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the ame wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte the best the wise the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande whiche not onely in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō profoundnesse in learning diligēce in preaching but wisedome also experience dexteritie in gouerning are not onely an ornament to the realme profitable to the Churche honour to the Prince but also a stay from barbarisme a bridle to sectes heresies a bulwarke agaynst confusion Wherefore as the vse of The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉 them then for those times states was good and godly so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient godly and necessarie whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell ▪ they tooke vnto themselues and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them they did not onely take vnto them of right but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all And in the end they came to this which they are nowe which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices vnheard of of al the purer churches of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is that they do no harme For although there be diuerse which do good yet in respect that they be Deanes Prebendaries ▪ Canons Petycanons c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them Io. Whitgifte All this is vntrue and your owne enely imagination for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie but diminished it rather as it is euident The names Tract 8. Ca. 2. and offices vsed in them I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them yet those that be quietly disposed in the Churche those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche sée great profite and singular commoditie The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers where now for the most parte they serue for fat morsels to fill if might be the greedy appetites of those which otherwise haue enough to liue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answered before this onely I adde that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine but those whiche made the people of God beleeue that they were happie when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach and leaue this crying peace peace all is well when there are so
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
Emperour in ciuill businesse Theodosius the Emperour made a lawe wherein it was decréed that all ciuil stryfes and controuersies shoulde be referred to the iudgemente of the churche if either Dorotheus Duaren lib. 1. of the parties did desire it And the same lawe did Carolus Magnus afterwards renew and confirme and yet doe you saye that the practise of the churche dothe confirme that Bishops may not meddle with ciuill offices If you flée to reason is it not good reason that a Bishop shoulde haue that office Some ciuill iurisdiction giuen to Bishops is agreable to reason and that authoritie that maye helpe hym in dooing his duelie in correctyng vice in procuryng peace in maynteyning good order in cuttyng off sectes schismes and suche lyke in accomplyshing all whiche be that séeth not howe muche he is helped by suche ciuill authoritie as the Prince committeth vnto hym is eyther voyde of reason or wilfully blynded Wherfore I may moste iustly conclude that for so muche as the holye Scriptures The conclusion of this matter doe teache that Ecclesiasticall persons maye meddle with ciuill effices the practyso of the Churche confirmeth the same and reason telleth that it is conuenient and seeing that suche as practise them both in the maner and forme before declared breake not foorth into any other mannes callyng busy not themselues in things whiche belong not vnto them but walke in their callyng occupie themselues in matters incidents vnto it and do good seruice both to God their Prince and their countrey these offices may very aptely concurre and meete together in one person and be profitably linked and ioyned together in one man This did Augustine confesse and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bounde them to these troubles not by his owne iudgement but by Bishops bounde by the holie ghost to ciuill troubles iudgement of him that did speake in him as I haue before declared This haue the godlie Bishops Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. consented vnto this doo the graue wise and learned Bishops in our tyme in this Churche by experience knowe Admonition The eightenth And birds of the same fether are couetous patrones of benefices persons vicars readers parish priests stipēdaries riding chaplains y t vnder the authoritie of their masters spoile their flocks of y e food of their soules (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seeke not the Lord Iesus but their own bellies (b) Iud. 12. cloudes that are without rayne trees without fruite (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchers full of dead bones fatted in all aboundance of iniquitie and leane locustes in all feeling knowledge and synceritie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 226. Sect. vlt. 227. Sect. 1. It is true that couetous Patrones of benefices be a great plague Couetous patrones to this Church and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers God graunt some speedie reformation in that poynt Neyther can I excuse all persons vicars c. but all this is spoken without the booke and therefore not fitlye of you alleadged agaynst the booke T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I haue spoken in that which hath bene sayde touching excommunication canons and Prebendaries c. And vnto that whyche is conteyned in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsones and vicars be a greate pi gue vnto this Churche and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Io. Whitgifte I confesse that the couetousnesse of some of them one waye and the contentiousnesse of some of you an other way hath done muche harme in the Church brought no small hinderance to the Gospell I pray God open the heartes of all that euery man may espye his owne deformitie and be therof ashamed T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. vlt. Lykewise vnto the two next sections I haue answered before in speaking against the spirituall courtes which are now vsed vnto the next after that in speakyng of the ordeyning of ministers Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to this conteined page 233. I vvill neitheriustifie that vvhich is amisse nor condemne that vvhich I knovve not Only this I say that this taunting spirit of yours seketh rather defamation than reformation vttereth spitefulnesse of stomacke rather than godlie zeale for what a deriding of authoritie disdayn towards the same is this three of them would be enough to sting a man to death for why they are high commissioners VVhat example haue you of any godly man that vsed thus to deride and floute magistrates you say all this springeth out of that Pontificall whiche you must allow by subscription c. But it had bin well if you had tolde vs out of what part of that Pontificall they spring and how they be thereof gathered This you passe ouer in silence Admonition And thus much be spoken as touching this booke against which to stand is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men the one ignorant the other obstinate The Lord giue those that be his vnderstanding in all things that they may haue iudgement as for the other whome the God of this world hathe blinded least they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confesse the truth and so be saued and that do in the full growth of wickednesse maliciously resist the truth God confound them that his peace may be vpon Israell and his sauing health vpon this nation Ansvver to the Admonition Page 234. Sect. vlt. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise learned and godly men to see this booke so painefully penned with such aduise perused and by so long practise allowed now to be defaced as it were with friuolous Foure sortes of aduersaries to the Church vnlearned and vnapt reasons and that by fower sorts of men Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and as you woulde be counted Puritanes God of his infinite mercie giue you charitable quiet thankfull minds and eyther conuert your harts or roote al such disturbers out of this Church that we may with one hart and mind serue our Lord God T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. vlt. And vnto that which is conteyned in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall iudge of the aptnesse or vnaptnesse of our reasons albeit we do fynde fault with diuers things in the booke yet we neither oppugne as enemies nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puritanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church I say with all my heart Amen Io. Whitgifte I would to God you did not oppugne it as enimies c. Surely then would not your fiercenesse nor your bitternes of speach haue bin such as it is But God forgiue you and to the prayer I say agayne Amen Amen Admonition If this be not playne inough by that which is already set
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
any learned man but onely of certaine heretikes and especially Anabaptists To be short I haue not answered the booke by peeces but wholy Howbeit I must desyre them to pardon me for not making more speede with my answere their friuolous quotations so troubled me and my other businesse that I could no sooner make an ende of it In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet there is nothing of any moment Augustine recor ed vpon the abu tsary worth the answering Therefore as they alledge this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur If they shoulde be feared and not taught it might seme a vvicked gouernance so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence Si docerentur non terrerentur vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius mouerentur If they should be taught and not feared in time they vvoulde vvaxestubburne and bethe hardlier moued to imbracethe vvay of saluation T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. vlt. I know not whether they haue bene conferred with or no but I thinke the first reason which they had to perswade them was that they should go to Newgate ▪ which is that which the Exhortation cō layneth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learne or euer he go to prison Io. Whitgifte If they were so sent to that place it was a méete reward for such disorderly dealing for ignorance may not excuse Libellers if they libell but against a priuate man much lesse shoulde it excuse them slaundering in that maner this whole Church and realme I doubt not but that I shall learne to know my selfe to do mydutie whilest I am out of prison so that I shall not iustly for lacke of dutie and honestie deserue it T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures in most places where they are sayde to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the r quest of the Exhortation which is to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures and how truly ptly and learnedly M. Doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the old Councels and fathers I leaue it to be esteemed partly of that which I haue sayde and partly by the deeper consideration of those which bycause they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is that I haue bicause I would not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with a light foote the heades and summes of things than to number the faults which are almost as many as there are sentences in this booke more I am sure than there are pages Io. Whitgifte I haue confuted both them and you according to the giftes and grace that God hath gyuen mée with suche authorityes both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours as is fitte to be vsed in the decyding of suche controuersies And I am well assured that you haue not omitted the least blot in my booke and for the most part you haue feyned agaynst your owne knowledge those to be whiche are not I refuse no mans iudgement of my dealing with the olde Councels and fathers that is learned and will speake without affection what he thinketh Your hyperbolicall conclusion or figure of lying where with you close vp your booke I am well vsed vnto and therefore it doth nothing trouble me but remayneth as a certaine note of the spirite that possesseth you which is the spirite of vntruth THus haue I according to that talent that God hath committed vnto me endeuoured my selfe to defende the state of this Church of England and the orders and rites therein by publyke authoritie established agaynst the slaunderous libelles of certaine vnquiet persons and this vncharitable replie of T. C. If eyther I haue omitted any thing that might haue béene vttered as I haue omitted many things or not so fully answered euery poynt that all men thereby may be satisfied namely such as will be satisfied with reason I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfill my want The which I do desire them most heartily to do euen for the loue that they haue to the peace of the Church not to suffer so common and weightie a cause to rest onely vpon one mans shoulder so farre inferiour to so many of them in all respects The contrarie part ceasse not to lay theyr heades togither and to make it all theyr cases which would more euidently appeare if their might were according to their will Therefore séeing that we like and allowe of the state let vs not suffer it to be defaced vniustly and without either learning or truth And if it shall please the contrarie part to answere this my defense then do I require no other thing of them than the selfe same which the Author of the Replie hath required of me and the which I haue accordingly performed that is that they set downe my wordes and answere me wholy which vnlesse they do they shal not onely with all wise men greatly dis redite themselues and shewe the lacke of truth to be on their side but also ease me of some paynes for I purpose not to answere Pamphlets nor to spend the time in confuting friuolous Libels The Lorde graunt that my labours may worke that effect that I desire that is peace in the Church and true obedience in the heartes of the Subiects Amen ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replie touching matters in controuersie T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgemēt of the later writers concerning these matters in controuersie betwene vs. VVherin bicause I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make mine to grow I haue kept this moderation that I neither set downe all the writers nor all their places that I coulde nor yet of euery singular matter But the chiefest writers and either of the chiefest points or else of those wherein they are alledged against vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eache as farre as I coulde iudge and chose out most directe to that wherefore I haue alledged it For otherwise if I would haue spoken of all the pointes and of the iudgement of all the writers and gathered all the places that I coulde they would haue ben sufficient matter of an other boke as bigge or rather bigger than this I must also admonishe the Reader that I haue forborne in certeine of these titles to sette downe the iudgements of M Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter bycause they
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except
ministration and thereby helpeth somewhat in the way of comelinesse and order to the encrease of faithe VVhat I pray you can be brought out of the scriptures why that Churche is not left to hir owne iudgement in this matter neyther therefore to be contemned or to be called into question for hir iudgement sake That Church verely will keepe in these things a meane agreable to the crosse of Christ and will diligently attend that no abuse creepe into it Hitherto M. Bucer To the like effect also writeth M. Martyr in the epistle before named Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Fol. 239. Sect. 1. Furthermore that they do edify it is manifest firste bycause they The apparell doth tend to edifying for three causes are by a lawfull magistrate by lawfull authoritie for order and decencie appoynted in the Church without any manner of superstition or suspicion of the same T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. vlt. Then he bringeth reasons to proue it whereof in the first he seemeth to reason that bycause it is commaunded by a lawfull magistrate and lawfull authoritie therefore it edifyeth As though a lawfull magistrate doth nothing at any time vnlawfully or as though a lawfull and a godly magistrate doth not sometimes commaund things which are inconuenient and vnlawfull Saule was a lawfull magistrate and did commaund vnlawfull things Dauid was a lawfull and godly magistrate and yet there flipt from him commaundements which were neyther lawfull nor godly But he addeth that it is done for order and for decencie without superstition or suspition of it This is that which is in controuersie and ought to be proued and M. Doctor still taketh it as graunted and still faulteth in the petition of the principle wherewith he chargeth others Io. Whitgifte That whiche is appointed in the Church by a lawfull magistrate and by lawfull authoritie for order and decencie without any superstition or suspition of superstition doth edify as other orders do but it is certaine that the apparell nowe vsed is so appointed Ergo it doth edify as other orders do You cauill at the maior and bring in the examples of Saule and Dauid to proue that a lawfull magistrate did commaund vnlawfull things but you omitte the other circumstances conteined in the maior and therefore you answer not to the purpose The minor you saye is in controuersie and I do fault in the petition of the principle Surely I do petere y ◠principium that no good subiect can denie For the Quéenes maiestie is a lawful magistrate the authoritie of Parliament is a lawful authoritie hir maiestie by that authoritie hathe appointed this apparell and that as it is protested for comelinesse and decencie without any superstition Ergo the minor is true If you will yet doubte of comelinesse and decencie then I still say vnto you that what is comely and decent is not euery mans part to iudge but the magistrates and suche as haue authoritie in the Church Chap. 7. the. 6. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 239. Sect. 2. Secondly bycause we are by due proofe and experience taughte that such as haue worne this apparell and do weare it by the ministerie of the word haue greatly edifyed and do dayly T. C. Page 58. Sect. 1. The second reason is that they that weare this apparell haue edifyed and do edify which is as if a man would say the midwiues which lyed vnto Pharao did much good amongst the Israelits Ergo their lying did much good If he will say the comparison is not like bycause the one is not sinne in his owne nature whereas the other is sinne then take this One that stammereth and stutteth in his tong edifyeth the people therefore stammering and stutting is good to edify For what if the Lord giue his blessing vnto his word and to other good gifts which he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplis c. Is it to be thought therefore that he liketh wel of the wearing of that apparell This is to assigne the cause of a thing to that which is not only not the cause thereof but some hindrance also and s aking of that whereof it is supposed to be a cause For a man may rather reason that for asmuch as they which preach with surplis c. edify notwithstanding that they therby (*) They that are driuen away or that cause do giue suspition of Anabaptisme driue away some and to othersome giue suspition of euill c. then if they preached withoute wearing any such thinges they should edify much more And yet if a man were assured to gaine a thousand by doing of that which may offend or cause to fall one brother he ought not to do it Io. Whitgifte Indéede if this apparell were of that nature that a lye is your similitude of the midwiues had some shew in it and yet must you of necessitie confesse that their lying to Pharao did much good per accidens for otherwise the men children of the Israelites and euen Moses himselfe had bin murthered and you are not ignorant that diuers writers in this respect excuse that doing of theirs You knowe likewise what the opinion of some is touching that kynd of lye that is called officiosum mendacium but for my part I am in that point of Sainte Augustines iudgement But your similitude is not lyke and if it were yet makes it agaynst you for theyr lying dyd good as I haue sayd e before Yo r other similitude of stammering stutting is ridiculous and argueth your great contempt of lawfull and decent orders The lawes of this Churche haue prescribed this apparell to the ministers of the worde as decent orderly and comely the same lawes haue inhibited those to preach that refuse to submit themselues vnto such orders Wherefore s eing they be appointed as fit garments for preachers and non may preach except he receiue them they do edify not by themselues as I haue before declared but per accidens as all other suche like things do For neyther the church nor the Pulpit nor the bells nor 〈◊〉 and such other do otherwise edify than per accidens Touching offence that is taken at the wearing of this apparell I haue shewed before that it is an offence taken and not giuen neyther is i to be considered whether men be offended or no but whether they haue any iust cause of offence Many be offended with our Churches and will neyther heare sermon nor receiue the sacraments in them we must not therefore pull downe our Churches or cease to preach and administer the Sacramentes in them You must remember the destinction of scandalum acceptum and scandalum datum an offence giuen and an offence taken Chap. 7. the seuenth Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Fol. 239. Sect. 3. Thirdly bycause also by experience we dayly vnderstand that such as consent in wearing this apparell consent also in all other points of doctrine and kepe the peace of the church which
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers