Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	church_n	holy_a	scripture_n	2,807	5	5.7899	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B23579	A Reply of two of the brethren to A. S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. upon the apologeticall narration : with a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way, against the cavils of the said A. S., formerly called M. S. to A. S. : humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall and moderate men in the world : with a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland and Mr. Parker's from New-England.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Steuart, Adam. Some observations and annotations upon the Apologetical narration. Selections.; Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1198	108,381	124

over men may lawfully by vertue of such power be both parties and Judges is to exalt all manner of tyranny violence and oppression by a Law Upon such a supposition men invested with authority and power whether in Church or State may be their own carvers and serve themselves of the estates liberties and lives of those that are under them how and when as oft as they list And why doe you not submit to the decisive judgment of the King in all controversies depending between you and him if that be your doctrine For the third inconvenience so called I shall be your debtour to tell me plainly and distinctly what power more your government giveth to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or the Hangman over a thousand I doe not remember where either your selfe or any of your party have calculated the proportion but I well remember a saying in Charron That every humane proposition hath equall authoritie Tout proposition humaine a autant d'authorite quel ' autre si la raison n'on fait la difference Charron de sag●sse Plus credend● est assertioni alicujus simplicis non authorizati excellenter in Scripturis eruditi quam declarationi Papae if reason make not the difference and another of Gerson much commended by Protestant Authors though the Author of it Pontificiall The saying of a simple man and no wayes authoriz'd if he be well seen in the Scriptures is rather to be beleeved then the Popes own determination But A. S. what makes you thinke for I can easily guesse what makes you say that the government of the Apologists gives no more power to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or Hangman over a thousand Vbi ●uando quibus testibus did this government or any son it hath ever make any such comparison or so farre honour either your Tinker or Hangman as to make them equall in power to a thousand Churches And yet I suppose if a man should say that the dust in the ballance hath as much life in it as the Sunne it would be no disparagement to this excellent and glorious creature because the excellencie of it doth not stand in any degrees or superiority of life above any other creature but in the aboundance of light which it hath and the height of its situation and the serviceablenesse of it to the world by means of both In like manner if it be supposed which I think upon what hath been delivered may very reasonably be supposed that the glory and excellencie of Churches doth not stand in any power or authority that one hath over another or many over one but in other farre more rich and holy and honourable endowments relations and qualifications it can be no prejudice or disparagement unto ten thousand of them to say they have no more authority over one then A. S. his Tinker or Hangman hath over them Therefore if A. S. his admired peece of Church-policie hath no greater commendation then to serve for preventing such Inconveniences as this the world needs make no great lamentation over it though it were in the condition of Rachels children when she wept for them and would not be Matth. 2. 18. comforted Some other inconveniences there are wherein A. S. findes the Government which he opposeth tardie and thinkes he sets a crown of glory upon the head of his Presbytery in vindicating the innocencie of it in respect of such guilt But alas he washeth off this guilt with blood or with water fouler then it as hath been shewed and condemneth his government in that wherein he mainly alloweth it The guilt is innocencie in respect of the purgation There is one inconvenience formerly opened and insisted upon in this chapter very incident to Presbytery the conscience whereof me thinks should make all the sons of that way rather to cover and compassionate then to complain or cry out of any inconvenience they either see or rather think they see in another Chap. 5. Whether the Apologists and men of their judgement may lawfully and without danger or prejudice to the State be tolerated and whether A. S. his reasons to the contrarie be of sufficient weight to perswade either to the banishment erushing or suppressing of them in any kind HE that hath read the precedent part of this discourse and doth though but with the lowest degree of impartialitie consider what hath been argued between the two wayes Presbytery and Apologisme cannot lightly but mourne over the title of this chapter and think him to be a man of iron entrails that should give occasion to such a Question as is there propounded Suppose the opinion maintained in the latter part of the second Chapter were wav'd and such a coercive power in matters of Religion as A. S. contends for allowed in the Magistrates hand yet that any man should plead for the drawing of this sword against those men who first have such a considerable strength if not of evidence yet of reason for what they practise and professe secondly have a like if not a more considerable strength against that way of government which they cannot submit to Thirdly are by their fiercest adversaries and opposites themselves acknowledged ten times over for very pious godly and learned men Fourthly have been at least the generalitie of them and so continue men of the most affectionate and withall the most effectuall activitie and forwardnesse to promote the great cause of Religion Parliament and Kingdome Fifthly are as deep in or if you will as much out of their estates rateably for the support of this cause as any other sort of men whatsoever Sixthly have many of them such as were meet for such a service adventur'd their persons and lives in the face of the rage and furie of the common enemie continuing still in the same engagements Yea seventhly and lastly have some of them exposed themselves to more danger and harder termes from the adverse party then ordinary in case they should prevaile by a publick vindication of the cause of the Parliament in print from the Scriptures and that before any man of differing judgment from them in Church affairs appeared in the cause upon such termes that any man I say on this side of malignancie should consult the sorrow trouble disgrace suppression ruine of men so holy so harmlesse of such eminent desert in the cause of Religion State Kingdome me thinkes should exceed the line of humanity and be thought some inspiration or suggestion from the great enemy of mankind Neverthelesse if either God Reason the peace or safety of the Kingdome require the sorrows or sufferings of these men I make no question but they will be willing to dispense with all considerations whatsoever that stand up to plead their immunitie and will with Isaac patiently suffer themselves to be bound yea and to be offered up in sacrifice also if need be Onely their humble request and suit is that they may not be

his own Maxime elsewhere being this that Par in parem non habet imperium and that Where there is no Superiour or Inferiour there can be no obedience or disobedience Non huc non illuc exemplo nubis aquosae 2. If the civill Magistrate hath power to command the Church to revise Sect. 7 her judgment when she judgeth any thing amisse surely he hath power to examine and judge of her proceedings whether they be regular equall and just or no except you will say that he comes to the knowledge of your it regular and undue proceedings in your Presbyteries by immediate revelation Suppose either the one or the other what reason have you to deny him part and fellowship with you in that Directive power in matters of Religion which you ingrosse and appropriate to your selves as we have formerly seen 3. If so then your Presbyteriall Assembly or judging Church may determine and judge amisse And if so 1. how dare yee compell or make the people under your government to sweare obedience or subjection unto your orders which yet by your own confession pag. 42 ordinarily you doe 2. Why are you not satisfied with that subjection to your Presbyteriall Decisions which pleadeth no exemption but only in the case of non-satisfaction about the lawfulnesse or truth of them You give men a good foundation a liberty to beleeve that you may erre but you will not suffer them to build upon it to refuse you when they think in their souls and consciences that that you doe erre They that will separate between such premisses and such conclusions will hardly make good Christians themselves or suffer others so to be And if you be but ingenuously willing to goe along with this your own principle That you may erre as farre as it would gladly lead you me thinks I durst undertake that the Apologists and you shall comprimize before to morrow next 4. And lastly if parties may have cause to be offended and not Sect. 8 onely pretend to be offended as A. S. would minde it with the Church as out of all question they may if the Church may judge amisse then have they power to judge of their actions as well as they of theirs No man is justifiable in his complaint or offence taking but he that hath a power to examine and judge of that which gives the cause or ministers the occasion of the offence And if a single partie which is no Presbyter or Prophet in your sense hath a lawfull power to examine and judge of the acts and orders of a Presbyteriall or Propheticall Assembly and may possibly by means of such an examination take them tardie do not so far magnifie the spirits of your Prophets against the spirits of our Saints as to think these good for nothing but to swear homage and vassalage unto them But A. S. surely pleaseth himselfe highly with a parcell of distinctions Sect. 9 which he presents us within the prementioned Description and hopes perhaps to make an atonement with them for his confusion● otherwise First He distinguisheth of that executive coercive power wherewith he invests the civill Magistrate as not being in or intrinsecall unto the Church but externall and about the Church Secondly he distinguisheth the subject capable of this power the civill Magistrate into truly Christian and not truly Christian Thirdly upon this distinction he builds a third distinction concerning the manner of the competencie of this power to the one kind of subject and the other telling us that this power or authority belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato and jure in rem onely till they become true Christians The man you see hath much adoe to find or come at that power Sect. 10 wherewith he would so fain gratifie the civill Magistrate in matters of Religion He adjures three unclean spirits of distinctions to tell him what and where it is and yet they doe but peep and matter in their answer and make no man the wiser by it Here he seeks for the coercive power of the civill Magistrate in matters of Religion in the same black sea of darknesse and confusion wherein he seekes and would make the world beleeve he finds the Presbyterian government afterwards But if the one and the other be cloz'd up in such an ammunition of rockes of distinctions as A. S. represents them in his story certainly they are inaccessible to the judgements and consciences of persons of mean capacity and much more inaccessible to the judgments and consciences of more understanding and considering men The very darknesse it selfe of the distinctions which he is necessitated to use to make his way to come at the one and at the other is a light sufficient to discover that neither the one nor the other is any where to be found within the territories either of reason or of truth But let us see the distinctions play a little before us for their Masters credit For the first The Magistrates power saith he viz. in matters of Religion for so he must necessarily be understood by the Antithesis in the former clause or member of this Distinction where he denies a Directive power unto him in matters of Religion is not in or intrinsecall to the Church but extrinsecall and about the Church Is it in i. intrinsecall to matters of Religion and but extrinsecall in respect of the Church So then it seems A. S. his Presbyteriall Church is somewhat more inward intimate and intrinsecall then the religion of this Church otherwise how should the power of the Magistrate penetrate into the Religion thereof and yet not reach into but onely unto the Church it selfe By this distinction he hath utterly disgrac'd his Presbyteriall Government by making the Churches under it more internall and inward then the religion that is to be found in them If the Apologists had but whispered one tittle of such a saying though at never such a distance it had been enough to have produced seven reasons more at least against their toleration then are yet levied or brought forth into the world But 2ly though you seem to deale very bountifully with the Magistrate Sect. 11 in giving him a power extrinsecall and about the Church and to content your selfe and your compresbyters with an intrinsecall power onely yet by somewhat that hath been lately printed it appeares that you mean to eate at the same Table with him which you pretend to spread for him alone For hath not the Presse very lately been delivered of this peece of Presbytery that the Classicall Presbytery hath Reformation cleared p. 23. the authoritative power of Citation just as the Bishops had And is not such a power externall and which is not in but about the Churches For if a Classis shall cite or excommunicate a member of a Church against the judgement and consent of the Elders of that Church let all the world

a with-drawing of Christian communion from persons walking inordinately is an Ordinance or means appointed by God for the reducing and reclaiming of them is evident 2 Thes 3. 6. with the 14. We warn you Brethren in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ that yee withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh inordinately c. and vers 14. If any man obey not this our saying in this letter note him and have no company with him that he may be ashamed Clearly implying that to with-draw communion and to deny Christian fellowship unto Christians walking inordinately is both a means of Divine institution and otherwise proper and commodious in it self to reclaim and bring them to Repentance There is the same reason of Churches in this behalf which there is of persons Churches being nothing else but persons embodied Secondly suppose there were no such sufficient or satisfactory remedy for the inconvenience mentioned in the way of the Apologists as A. S. conceives to be in his which yet there is as hath in part already and will afterwards further appear yet Lawyers have a saying that a mischief is better then an inconvenience A man had better run the hazard of a greater loss then expose himself to a daily wasting and consuming of his estate A man had better be wet through and through with a soaking showre once a yeer then be exposed in his house to continuall droppings all the yeer long The Delinquencie of whole Churches such I mean as is matter of publique scandall or offence to their neighbour Churches is not an every dayes case no more in the way of Congregationall then of Presbyteriall Government you acknowledge the rarity of it in your Government and we affirm it in ours Now then much better it is to want a remedy against such an evill which possibly may not fall out within an age though it be greater when it doth fall then it is to expose our selves to continuall droppings I mean to those daily inconveniences which wee lately shewed to be incident to the Classique Government Thirdly they that implead the Congregationall way for being defective as touching the matter in hand seem to suppose that God hath put a sufficiency of power into the hands of men to remedy all defects errours and miscarriages of men whatsoever Else why should it be made matter of so deep a charge and challenge against the way of the Apologists that it affords not a sufficient and satisfactory remedy either to prevent or heal all possible miscarriages in all churches I would willingly know in case your Church transcendent your supreme Session of Presbyters should miscarry and in your Doctrinall determinations give us hay stubble and wood in stead of silver gold and precious stones a misprision you know wel-neer as incident to such Assemblies yea and to those that are more generall and oecumeniall then so as obstinacy in errour is to particular Congregations what remedy the poor Saints and Churches of God under you have or can expect against such a mischiefe or what remedy you now have in the way of your government for the recovering of your selves out of such a snare more then what the Congregationall way affordeth for the reclaiming of particular Churches Nay the truth is your Government in such a case is at a greater loss in respect of any propable or hopefull remedy against such an evill which yet is an evill of a most dangerous consequence then the other way of Government is for the reduction of particular Churches That hath the remedy of God as hath been shewed though not the remedy of men and yet that remedy of God which it hath is appliable by men and those known who they are viz. the Churches of Christ neer adjoyning but if your great Ecclesiastique body be tainted or infected though never so dangerously Corpora morbis majora patent Sen. God must have mercy on you and that in a way somewhat at least more then ordinary if ever you be healed For that Directive power in matters of Religion which had you left it in other mens hands might in this case through the blessing of God have healed you being now only in your own hath not only occasioned that evill disease that is upon you but also leaves you helpless and cureless by other men A. S. makes the greatest part of his arguments against that way of Government which hee opposeth of what iffs I mean of loose and impertinent suppositions and cases that are not like to fall out till ursa major and ursa minor meet unto which kind of arguments every whit as much as enough hath been answered already but he shall shew himself a soveraign Benefactour indeed to the Presbyterian cause if he can find out a remedy satisfactory and sufficient against that sore evill we speak of incident to his Government in the case mentioned which is a case both of a far worse consequence then the obstinacy of a particular Church in some error and I fear of a far more frequent occurrence then the world is willing to take notice of Fourthly let us ponder a little how sufficient and satisfactorie that remedie against the evill now in consideration is which the Classique politie under the protection of A. S. his pen so much glorieth in let us compare the two remedies of the two corriving polities together as A. S. hath done after this manner But the Presbyteriall Government saith he p. 39. is subject to none of these inconveniences For the collective or combined eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundrie matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voyces without any schisme or separation Not to be troublesome to the man about his Grammaticals wherein his pen slips oftner then Priscian will tolerate in such a piece because in these he opposeth nothing but a mans conceit either of overmuch scholarship or overmuch care in him Here is a remedie indeed against some inconveniences but whether the inconveniences be not much better then the remedie adhuc sub Judice lis est But what are the inconveniences The first is that Churches being equall in authoritie one cannot binde another to give any account in case of offence given Well what is the remedie for this in Classique constitution The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves c. What is another inconvenience In case other churches were offended in the proceedings of a particular church they could not judge in it for then they should be both judge and partie in one cause c. Well what is the remedie in Presbyterian politie The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches c. What is a third inconvenience That Congregationall Government giveth no more power or authoritie

of Gods word we answer that they have often shewed it but God and men it seems are not yet agreed to have it so generally seen as is to be desired but our hope is that the agreement will be concluded between them in due time Fourthly and lastly you conclude this reason with this undertaking that if it your brethrens opinion we suppose you mean though it 's hard both here and in twenty places more to know your meaning clearly be refused it will help to confirm the Churches and the people in truth We desire to know in truth of what It will indeed confirme both marvellously in the truth of Presbyterian fastnesse to their owne cause but in what other truth it should confirm either the one or the other we wait for our intelligence from you to know Your 21. and last reason save onely those which you say you omit His last Reason answered is but a slip of your ninteenth being somwhat that follows out of Independencie But here you tell us that the Government so called cannot but overthrow all sort of Ecclesiasticall Government Is Saul also among the Prophets Haec verba loquentis ab ore Gaudens arripio st●●●● factus Numine adoro I joy over these words and reverence them so ●hat I conceive to be of God in them Wee know who prophesied when he was not aware of it Indeed by the beauty and perfect consonancie of this government with the word of God it may very reasonably yea and upon higher termes then of reason be thought that in time it cannot but overthrow all sort of Ecclesiasticall government and stand up it selfe in their stead F●xit Deus festinet But that which you adde in the close of this Reason plainly sheweth that you had no mind to prophesie though God had or might have b● you for here you say that this order by necessary consequence will breed all sort of disorder No first it will not breed the disorder of oppressing conscientious men for conscience sake nor secondly of discouraging men from searching the Scriptures more narrowly not thirdly of having recourse unto the word for the setting up of the government of Christs Kingdome nor fourthly of making men walk sundry miles for what they might have upon as good or better termes at home besides a thousand other disorders which the order of your Independencie will never breed by any consequence at all necessary or unnecessary being of a very soveraign importance to prevent them And for your premisses in the body of your Reason by which you would fain make the match between the order of Independencie and all sort of disorder they are but false brokers The Independent Churches as you call them have no such custome as for one to give entertainment or admission to any person that hath been censured by another without the censure first relaxed by that Church which inflicted it or without the consent of this Church This is their reproach not their practice And thus we see that amongst A. S. his 21. Reasons there is not one that will stand by their Master when they are but a little put to it there is none of them but with a little perswasion and debate will willingly enough consent to a Toleration for the Apologists If the Disputant himselfe with his party were but as tractable as his reasons there need no more words be made about the businesse As for his after-birth of Reasons p. 65. since he professeth himselfe that he omits them we shall comport with him herein and omit them also I hope he will think himselfe a debtor to us for this compliance It seems that himselfe placeth no great confidence in them in that hee mentions them as if hee mentioned them not and thought them not worthy to be numbred amongst his first-born His Horsemen you see have been overcome and yeelded themselves his Infantery knows the manner of the field and will no question surrender without incounter Nor is there any thing for weight or substance in this Tail of Reasons but what hath been broken already in the Head FINIS