cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
are exaÌ„ples of such appeales out of all prouinces namely of the Patriarks of Alexandria Constantinople S. Austine himself Epi. 162. in the cause of Cecilianus B. of Carthage deposed by the bishops that began the Schisme of Donatus vseth it as a plea the Cecilianus was readie causam dicere apud caeteras ecclesias extra Africam To be iudged by the other Churches out of Affrike Neque enim de presbyteris aut diaconis aut inferioris gradus clericis agebatur For the matter was not about any priestes or Deacons or inferiors of the Cleargie but about Bishops qui possunt aliorum Collegarum iudicio praesertim Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum causam suam integram reseruare Who may reserue their cause whole to the iudgement of their felowbishops specially of the Apostolike Churches where also he saith In Romana Ecclesia semper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit principatus The Princedome of the Chayre Apostolike hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church Also by the Councel SardiceÌ„se ca. 7. in the same Carthage Councel cap. 3. whose authoritie none of those African Bishops did denie for the same Bishops were of it that were of the Nicen S. Austine ca. 7. did expresly admit in the cannon of the Inferiors appealing from theyr owne Bishop Thirdly by the Nicen Councell also wherevpon you say very insolently trusting ouermuche your lying Lutherane friendes the Magdeburgians in their Centuries that S. Augustine and his fellowes tooke those Popes with plaine forgerie and falsification of the Canons of the Councell of Nice and fetched them meetly well ouer the Coles for it You imagine that their Catholike grauities were as maleperte with the Popes of their time as you and such other skipiacks be at this time Cleane contrarie to the whole storye of that time and the very wordes and déedes of those Affrike Councels them selues where we reade no otherwise of those Popes then of such as were honored of all for their holines both in their liues and also after their death euen to this day And if you of your heades will call all forgerers and falsifiers which aleaged for Canons of the Nicene Councel more then are conteined in those twentie how many of the Auntients shal you spare yea or S. Augustine also himself How often doth he aleage the Nicen Councel against the Donatists about baptisme How often do all aleage it about Easter day and against the Arrians for many other matters not once mentioned in those Canons And therfore as you had no cause to inuent this forgerie so also the African fathers had small cause as any man may perceaue by this to stand so much with the Popes in those Appeales of Bishops from prouinciall Councels by which their doing for all that can not be inferred any thing against the Popes authoritie aboue prouinciall Councells no more then against a generall Councels authoritie aboue a prouincial For at this day also Catholike Kinges and Bishops stand with the Popes by the Councell of Trent by his owne grauntes pragmatical compositions c. in the right of geuing benefices of Appealles c. with his owne good leaue without any preiudice to his Superioritie vnles you thinke the good kings be preiudicial to their own Crowns when they are content to trie by lawe with their Nobles clayming some priuiledge in the kings royalties Ar. 37. Soc. l. 7. c. 11 So. li. 6. c. 10 But most ridiculous of all you be where you alleage Socrates the Nouatian speaking against P. and S. Celestinus for taking awaye the Nouatians Churches in Rome as before hée touched S. Chrysostome also for the like in Asia and counting it a point of foreine Lordship not of Priesthood Nouatians Secularem is not foâ—reiâ—e â— you transâ—aâ—â— but vvorldly specially in their owne cause may not depose Neither yet doth hée denie the Popes Supremacie ouer all in carping that facte no more then he denieth S. Chrysostomes Superioritie in the compasse of his Patriarkship of Constantinople As litle is it to your purpose Ar. 37. that the forsaid Aphrican Councell cap. 6. decréeth that any Primate of Afrike shall not be called princeps Sacerdotum aut Summus Sacerdos prince of priestes or highest Priest but onely thus Primae sedis Episcopus the Bishop of such or such a first See What perteinech this to the titles and much lesse to the Primacie beeing the thing of the Bishop of Rome whom the Africans them selues as appeareth in S. Augustines works neuer called Primae sedis Episcopum but Aug. e. 157 Apostolicae Sedis Episcopum the Bishop of the See Apostolike ij About onely faith For only faith thus you say Pu. 320. Which of your Prelates will folowe Ambrose in his commentarie vpon the Epistle to the Romanes where he so often affirmeth that a man is iustified before God by faith onely And againe Cyprian taught Pur. 287. that faith onely doth profit to saluation To. 2. ad Quirin ca. 42. And that he beleueth not in God at all which placeth not the trust of all his felicitie in him onely de duplici martyrio And once againe Pur. 81. What Origens iudgement was concerning Satisfaction for sinnes he declareth sufficiently in his 3. booke vpon the Epist to the Rom. cap. 3. where often times he repeateth that a man is iustified before God by faith onely affirming that in forgiuenes of sinnes God respecteth no worke but faith onely as he proueth by the parable that our Sauiour vsed to Simon the Pharisee Luke 7. and answereth also those obiections which euen the Papistes at this day make against vs for teaching that faith only doth iustifie vs in the sight of God The same which in the last chapter I declared to be S. Paules meaning to wit that a man may be iustified by faith Ca. 8. pa. 4 although before his faith that is before he was a Christian before he was a Catholike he did not good workes but euill workes the same I saye doth S. Ambrose and also Origen expresly declare to be their meaning also and it is false that you say Origen to answer our obiections which we make against you for teaching that the good workes which after faith Christ worketh in vs doo not augment our iustification He that onely beleeueth saith Origen is iustified etiamsi nihil ab eo operis fuerit expletum although no whit of works haue bene done by him S. Cyprians woordes in Latine are but these thrée Fidem tantum prodesse faith onely to profit Cyp. Test ad Quir. lib. 31.42 meaning that faith profiteth and without faith nothing profiteth alleaging his Testimonies for it accordingly that Abraham beleued God it was reputed to him vnto iustice Gen. 15. and If you will not beleue you shall not vnderstand Esay 7. according to the Septuaginta The booke de duplici Martyrio is thought to be supposition coyned by Erasmus though that saying which you alleage is of it selfe Catholike inough
as S. Irenée saith Non oportet adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatē quam facile est ab Ecclesia sumere No man must yet after all these most euident Demonstrations seeke the Trueth among any others which they may so easily take of the Churth because it is Depositorium diues the riche Stoarehouse of the Apostles 38 Old Heresies Motiue 4. Among the Protestants on the contrary side I say that there are to be founde very many of the Olde condemned Heresies Which is so playne that Fulke confesseth here cap. 3. Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius to haue bene counted Heretikes of the true auncient Church for sundry opinions of theirs nowe reuiued by the Protestantes And therefore is fayne cap. 7. pag. 80. for his owne cause to goe about to defende them partly with his stale of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 80. to the which I haue made aunswere cap. 8. pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. partely with abusing sundrie places of the Scriptures and of the same Fathers which condemned those Heretikes to the which I haue answered cap. 8. and 9. partly also with more insolencie to charge those Fathers rather as defending Heresie agaynst Aerius c. cap. 3. wherevnto I haue answered cap. 6. sauing that the two Heresies which he layeth to them that hold with the Machabées and with Traditions as the Fathers do cap. 9. pag. 165. cap. 3.7 pa. 12.85 I haue answered in this present chap. in the 36. 29. Demaunds And so with one labour I haue cléered both the Fathers our selues together not to be Gnostici Valentinians Carpocratians Collyridians Ossenes Caianes in our Traditions in our Crosses and other Images in our Inuocation of Angels and Sants and worshipping of their Relikes nor to be Manichées Tiacianistes Montanistes Aerians in our Abstinence and Fastingdayes in our single life nor Gentiles Carpocratians Origenists Heracleonites Montanistes in our name of Sacrifice in our Purgatory Anealing and praying for the dead nor Arrians in our beeres for burying For such is his modesty and Christianity and truth to charge the Pillers of Christ with such heresies yea and moreouer to saye generally as I noted cap. 3. pag. 9. that if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they woulde drawe it into vse whiche was the greate corrupting of those auncient tymes That we maye nowe be more content to heare him charge vs and say with all generalitie that is possible Pur. 287. In all tymes when soeuer and wheresoeuer was any peese of miste or darke corner though all the rest were light there were the steppes of your walke Which two golden sayings of his procéede of these two diuine opinions of their new Gospel that the Primitiue Church should prepare the way to Antichrist and that Christes Vicare should be Antichrist Wherof I haue spoken ynough cap. 8. and 9. Such opinions must vtter such sayings And yet not able for all that truely to charge the Church either Primitiue or of later time with so much as one point of Antichristianisme or Heresie as partly I haue declared cap. 6. and now wil declare for the rest They are such matters as agrée no otherwise to vs then to them whom he dare not to condemne and therfore not in the same maner as to the old Heretikes Ar. 21.22 Epiph. s 3. Haer. 80. 1. Cor 11. Hier. in Ezech 44. Of the Messalians or Martyrians you lerned saith he to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Comas muliebres producunt They kepe their heare long like women Do we so Be our heades like womens long heades womens heads bylike are rounded heades or S. Paule did meane that men should poll their heades Ita ad pressum tondentes vt rasorum similes videantur Cutting them so neare the skin that they should be like to shauen heades Or do not some Protestantes weare round heads and shaue their beardes as well as some Catholikes and some Catholikes euen also the Cleargie in Italie and Spayne weare beardes and polled heades as well as some Protestantes Epiphanius noteth it in those Monkes because they did it in contentione of contention and at that time and in that place when and where the Apostles statutes and the Churches orders were to the contrarie as yet they be touching womanly heades but not also euery where touching shauen beardes It is a signe that you abounde with substantiall stuffe against vs that you lay our heares to our charge Nothing was wont with you to be heresie vnlesse it could be proued contrarie to expresse Scripture Sup. dem 36. so easily we might answere all by your principles and that also excepting ceremonies Yet now conformitie and obedience to comly order for lacke of better matter must go for heresie Sée whether we do not more substātially charge you with the Messalians heresie for saying that the Sacraments and namely Baptisme Theo Haer. fab li. 4. Dam. Haer. 80. Eucharist and Orders do not conferre grace Reade Theodorete and Damascene Of the Pharisees you receiued your superstitious masking garments which you call Amictus Dalmaticus and Pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Doth not also your owne order appoynt speciall and gorgeous garmentes in the ministrations And that in the Primitiue Church also were such I haue shewed here in the 21. Demaund and by name if you will you may reade of the Deacons Dalmatica and Alba to be worne in the time of the oblation and lesson out of the Gospell Con. Carth. 4. cap. 41. as also in other places both of them and the rest You might as well or also better haue brought this against the Leuiticall garments in the ministeries of the Iudaicall Temple Epipha ep ante lib. de Haer. Haer. 15.16 You do not consider that Epiphanius there reporteth the seuen sectes of the Iewes and describeth them namely the Scribes and the Pharisées in their common daily garments being Stolae siue Pallia and Dalmaticae siue amicula as we might say cassocks and gownes or clokes vpon them with simbriae fringes commaunded Nu. 15. Deut. 22. to haue made for ostentation of holines certayne superstitious additions enlargementes by which our Sauiour Mat. 23. doth note their hipocrisie Doth not this make sore against holy vestments in the Seruice of God An other sect of the Iewes were Hemerobaptistae touched by our Sauiour Mar. 7. Epipha ep ad Acac. Paulum Haer. 17. who said Neminē assequi vitam aeternam nisi qui quotidie baptizaretur None to obtaine life euerlasting but such a one as were baptized or washed euery day Of these were deriued your holy water saith Fulke to vs which you say you vse to put men in mind of their Baptisme O I sée our fault although we baptize but once for life euerlasting yet we would haue men to remember it euery day S. Paule deceaued vs Rom.
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
they made that faith and troth wherwith they had vowed afore the thing which they would not fulfil with perseuerance So smoothly and gently doth the text folow this coÌ„struction as yet also more playnly you shall sée if you conferre nubere volunt with this that followeth Iam enim quaedam conuerâ—ae sunt retro satanam As if he had said but what do I say They will marry They will play the Apostates Yea already some are turned backe after Satan Therfore I say of these yong widowes admit them not to vow Doth he not hereby euidently expound him selfe that in suche widowes to marry he calleth to turne backe after Satan Agayne in saying Let a widowe be admitted no lesse then three score yere olde and refuse the yonger ones I will that they marry Doth he not playnely signifie that the admitted may not marry and therefore the young ones bicause they will marry after their admission do incurre damnation This is our conference of the text it selfe with it selfe But in commeth Fulke and will néedes for all that haue it meante of the faith of Baptisme and Christianitie Pur. 147. because S. Paule in the same Chapter saith of another matter that who so neglecteth to prouide for his owne familie hath denyed the faith meaning the faith of a Christian man Specially because he calleth this that we speake of the first faith Neither is pistâ—s in the Scripture vsed for a vow oâ— promise Why do not you say your selfe that both there and once afore in the same Chapter it is vsed for the vow or promise made in Baptisme And can you remember neuer a place where the faith of God is the promise of God looke Rom. 3. Who hath not heard of the thrée good thinges in mariage that S. Augustine talketh so much of Fides Proles Sacramentum faith or troth yssue and Sacrament And where you triumph in your owne conceite against S. Augustines most naturall and most certaine exposition as though by it the first faith is expounded for the last vow now sir thus the text ruÌ„neth They wil marry that is fidem dare make promise betroth them selues to another husband to a mortall man and therefore to be damned because in so doing they haue broken their first faith that is the promise that they made the troth that they plighted afore to their husband Christ in their admission among these widowes What absurditie what inconsequence is in this let any man iudge whether hangeth better together it or the exposition of your companions that D. Allen chargeth them with to wit She that breaketh her faith of Baptisme shall be damned for mariage which you say is a cauill and not worth a rush What then is your exposition That belike hangeth exactly Thus you say S. Paule saith not she shall be damned for mariage but because she hath reiected the first faith that is suche wanton young huswifes proceede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood Chritianitie and all Lo Fulke it goeth hard vvith you your selfe are compelled to graunt that which you denied to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhood and how forsake they widowhood but by marrying Ergo S. Paule saith they shall be damned for marrying So vnuincible is the texte in our exposition One texte more you alleage about mariage Pur. 17.25 to salue your Bishops ytching lust who as though it were annexum ordini saith D. Allen very aptely must out of hand for the most parte haue a wife whereas yet neuer from the Apostles time to this day Not one Mark it vvell any one Bishop or priest that is confessed to haue bene a good one did marry afterwards neither for all Iouinians plausible argumentes no not Iouinian him selfe What haue you then to defend yours withall that are so coÌ„trarie to all others A Bishop is not perfect vvith Fulke vnlesse he haue a vviâ—e Belike say you S. Paule taketh mariage to be so annexed to the order of an Ecclesiasticall minister that he neuer descrbeth the perfect paterne of a Bishop or Deacon but one of the first pointes is that he be the husband of one wife Belike you know not nor care not what you say for you should haue gathered the cleane contrarie if you had looked what he meneth by the husband of one wife A Bishop saith he must be the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. A Priest the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. The meaning thereof you might haue learned 1. Tim. 5. where he coÌ„maundeth about the choosing of a professed widow and saith quae fuit vnius viri vxor Let her be such a one as hath bene the wife of one husband So then he requireth in a Bishop Priest or Deacon to be made that he haue had onely one wife How much better then if he haue had none but is a virgin This you should haue gathered of his words and you gather the cleane contrarie that néedes he must haue had a wife or els if he be a virgin he swarueth from the perfect paterne yea more absurdly not that he must haue had one but that he must presently haue one for of that D. Allen did speake and to that you alleage S. Paule And thus gentle Reader I haue with Gods assistance gone through all the Scriptures reseruing onely a few to other places which this Heretike alleageth in his two bookes for any matter against the Catholike Church and answered euery one of them so clearly that I trust thou art fully satisfied and doest perceiue playnely that he had no cause to bragge of Scripture as in the last Chapter he did most insolently saying still an end that he cared not what was against him séeing Scripture was so expresly with him But he may and it please God who is most mercifull by this occasion better bethinke him selfe and leaue his kicking agaynst the pricke that is against our Lorde Iesus in his Church Act. 9. specially vnderstanding by this litle as he may sufficiently that much more either he or any other of his side should be throughly satisfied in all euery thing if he were present here with vs to sée and heare our dayly conference in the Scriptures as very many of his side yea and Ministers aboue a dosen diuers of them being also of no vulgar wittes haue come already haue heard our examining of the Bible specially of the New Testament ouer and ouer haue asked obiected replied whatsoeuer they liste haue to euery thing bene so well answered the prayse is Gods and his Catholike truthes and on the other side so hardly posed all I say out of the holy Scripture it selfe that euer after a few dayes they haue had more list to heare then to speake specially seacute eing vs at euery text to alleage sincerely for their side whatsoeuer they could and more then they could them selues and now are euerie one of them become so firme so sure so perfitte
Catholikes as none can be more and some of their suffering in Englande for the Catholike faith in prison in yrons and that after the most terrible and most cruell manner doth most gloriously declare ¶ The ninth Chapter To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he aleageth are examined answered The first parte Of his Doctours generally j His chalenging words THat out of the old Doctours Church is no saluation that they make with vs in many things against the Protestants I declared in the thrée first Chapters by Fulkes owne confession Now to declare further that they be wholly ours with the * Aug. sic inuocat Cyprianum de Bapt. con Don. lib. 5. ca. 17. li. 7. cap. 1. Pur. 432. Pur. 383. helpe of their prayers I will defende that in nothing they make for the Protestants against vs because he saith vnto D. Allen speaking of the auncient Doctors and Councels Among whom as we will not denie but you haue some patrons of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest Againe The Papistes offer to stand to their iudgement in all thinges and yet in most thinges yea in the chiefest pointes of religion they are contrarie to the Doctors and old Councels Againe Brag of them as much as thou wilt Pur. 406. thou shalt neuer be able to proue that of 20. errours which thou defendest Rusticus es Corridon they did hold one If they haue spoken otherwise then trueth in any matter they must be * In the zeale of the Scribes against Christ. told of it as well as other men But thou must not think that for one error common with them thou must hold an hundred cōtrarie to them He saith in most things and Pur. 238. in an hundred for one Yea more then that in another place It may be a shame to you Papists saith he to leaue condemne for heresy all that is true in those mens writings and agreable to the Scripture and to make such vaunt for a few superstitious ceremonies Pur. 407. and vncincere opinions And againe Nay M. Allen though those Doctors buyld some hay or stouble vpon the only foundation Christ their case is ten thousande times better then yours which buyld nothing but dirt and dung tempered with hay and stuble vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Ar. 60. And once againe more particularly The other writers of later yeres he spoke before of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus we are not afraide to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead and diuers superstitious and superfluous Ceremonies But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honor of God the offices of Christ Redemption iustification satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of Gods word authoritie of the Pope Real presence Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your Church Lo this he saith of our differing from the Doctors First touching the number of the poyntes to wit in most things in many hundreds yea in all that is true in their writings and secondly touching the weight of the poyntes to wit in the greatest and chiefest euen about God and Christ him selfe with those other that he named ij A generall answere to his chalenge declaring that we neede not to answere his Doctors particularly Wherein I thinke Reader whatsoeuer thou art thou doest of thy selfe abhorre the mouth which so filthily runneth ouer and therfore desirest not that I take the payns which I haue promised to ioyne with him in this Chapter vpon the Doctors As also other good causes there are why I might spare that labour Pur. 383 432. First because speaking of the old Doctors and old Councels and the most auncient primatiue Church he saith Pur. 383.432 For which cause that is because the Papistes do offer to stand to their iudgement in al things and not for Confirmation of truth we alleage the authoritie of men we stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures In which saying as he agréeth well with himselfe aboue in the seuenth Chapter where he did set at nought all but onely Scripture so I hauing in the laste Chapter answeared all his Scriptures haue by this his owne iudgement fully satisfied him although I meddle not at all with his Doctors vnlesse he require me to spende time onely to mainteine their honor whiche make the forsaid offer being otherwise as he here saith nothing to the matter which is the Confirmation of trueth Againe because he himselfe for me doth answere all his owne Doctors if it be rightly considered See cap. 5. in the end in that he confesseth them to haue helde with vs the very same pointes for the which we must be condemned no remedie as differing from the Doctors in the greatest pointes For why doth he saye that wée are against the honor of God and against the Offices of Christ but because wée hold Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes But the Doctors held the same he confesseth both here Sup. cap. 3. part 2. Sup. cap. 7. par 1. in Traditions and more amply in the 3. chapter Why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods word but because we hold with Traditions But the Doctors held with the same he confesseth in the 7. Chapter And so forth in the residue of those great pointes as may easily be deduced in like maner or at the least so proued that he shal be faine to cōfesse as much In somuch that of one of those points he saith thus expresly I confesse with M. Allen Pur. 156. that the old writers not onely knew but also haue expressed the valew of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish Satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side sée what followeth immediatly Against the valew of which Redemption saith he if they haue vttered any thing by the word of Satisfaction or any thing els we may lawfully reiecte their authoritie not only though they be Doctors of the Church but also if they were Angels frō heauen So that nowe we no more néede to defend against him that we are not contrarie to the Doctors in such great poyntes then that the Doctors are not contrarie to them selues in the same as also that
of faith in time of Heresie and also of communion in time of Schisme S. Hierome was readie to be ruled by the B. of Rome and that all others by his iudgement and expositiō of Scripture must likewise do in so muche that he saith further to Damasus in the same Epistle Whosoeuer gathereth not with thee he scattereth hoc est that is to say Qui Christi non est Leo Epist 89. ad Epis vien proui Antichristi est Whoso is not Christes he is Antichristes because as S. Leo the great saith Petrum in consortium indiuiduae vnitatis assumpsit Christus Christ tooke Peter into the participation of vndiuided vnitie so that it should be all one to be Peters and to be Christes to be in vnitie with Peter and his Successor and to be in vnitie with Christ One more expositor yet you alleage saying Pur. 320. Which of your Prelates will folow Ambrose in his Commentary vpon the Apocalypse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome I will recite his wordes for you Amdro in Apoc. 17. This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in speciall quae tunc ecclesiam Dei persequebatur which then in S. Iohns time did persecute the Church of God In some places in generall the citie of the Diuell that is to say the whole bodie of the Reprobate Is not this now a perilous point with our Prelates so to touch the citie of Rome in S. Iohns time which did persecute the Church of Rome that is the Clargie and other Christians of Rome But of the Church of Rome the vndoubted Ambrose saith if you remember Ambro. de Sacramen lib. 3. ca. 1. In all thinges I couet to folow the Romane Church so protesting because he had occasion there to defende a certaine custome of his owne Church at Millaine which the Romane Church had not cuius typum in omnibus sequimur et formam whose paterne and samplar we follw in all thinges which notwithstanding he there declareth that other Churches may vpon good cause haue some ceremonie that the Church of Rome hath not Likewise he calleth Peter primum and fundamentum the first and the foundation in the very same place where say you he affirmeth Pur. 320. Ambro. de Inc. d. c. 4.5 that Peter is not the foūdation So faithfully you deale with your Reader He doth there excellently cōfute by Peters confession the Heresies that were against Christes Diuinitie Incarnation While other mens opinions were in rehearsing Peter though alwaies most forward held his peace But when he once heard Vos autē now what do your selues say of me statim loci non immemor sui Primatum egit Immediately being not vnmindefull of his place he exercised the Primacie The Primacie of confession pardie not of worldly honor the Primacie of faith non ordinis not of worldly degree And beneath Faith is the foundation of the Church Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est For it was not said of Peters flesh but of his faith Mat. 16. that the gates of death shal not preuaile against it his confession ouercommeth hel Al which we say in the same maner Heretikes and other ministers of the diuel may preuaile against the flesh of a Pope but his faith but his confession aswell in the articles that be now in controuersie as in those at that time will stand when they shall all be sunke downe into their due place The rest of the Popes Supremacie Ar. 36.37 Pur. 287.373.374 And here by the waye because the place is most conuenient and because it is sone done to answer vnto that you say Ireneus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Africa and Socrates the Historiographer did preach or write against the Popes authoritie when it first began to aduance it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocētius Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus I say first that all those Popes were of the true Church by your owne confession here cap. 2. and therefore you are contrarie to your selfe in making other Popes to be Antichrist for claiming suche authoritie as these did Secondly that all those writers did communicate with those Popes And therefore your Schismaticall separation hath no helpe of them Thirdly that no one of them wrot against the Popes authoritie as you pretend What did they then of Ireneus Polycrates and Dionysius touching S. Victor and of Cyprianus touching S. Stephanus I report the trueth here ca. 10. in the 28. demaund Cyp. ep 55 68. seu li. 1. Ep. 3.4 The same S. Cyprian doth exhort S. Cornelius to be as stout in not loosing certaine Africane heretikes vnder the degrée of Bishops as their owne Bishop had bene in binding them He also noteth in S. Stephanus some litle negligence but much more wilfull obreption in those two lapsed Bishops of Spaine Basilides and Martialis who had cōcealed from him the truth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he sayth wel that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in stéede against their former deposition by the Bishops of their owne prouince This which so plainely maketh for the Popes authoritie you are so blinde to bring against it As concerning the Councels of Africa Milenis the question betwene them those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersal Church as for example matters of the faith quoties fidei ratio ventilatur for such matters they also them selues did referre to the Apostolike iudgement of those Popes antiquae scilicet regulae et traditionis formam secuti quam toto semper ab orbe mecum nostis esse seruatam Apud Aug Epi. 94.93 Innocē ad Con. Cart. Milenit Aug. e. 106. Con. Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. De pec ori con Pelag. cap. 8. following the forme of the old tradition and Canon which saith Pope Innocentius vnto them in those Epistles which S. Augustin being one of them doth often commend most highly as very answerable to the Sea Apostolike you as well as I do know to haue bene kept alwaies of all the world but about matters of perticuler persons as Appeales of Bishops And that question also was not about the Popes authoritie therin but what order the Nicene Councel which first was confirmed and always afterward most exactly obserued of S. Peters Sée as Municipall lawes are of good kings had taken therein And of the inferior Cleargie there was no such question but they should holde them selues quiet with the iudgement of theyr owne prouince if not of their owne Bishop without appealing further according to Con. Aphric cap. 92. which you alleage and according to Concil Sardicen Can. 17. which is alleaged Concil Carthag 6· cap. 6. 7. But that Bishops might so appeale the Popes auouched both by the old continual custome Con. Cart. 6. ca. 2. wherof no man can denie but there
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
Protestantes side and iustification of our side so that whosoeuer will be saued must neither beleue them nor communicate with them as being Heretikes and Schismatikes but must be of our beliefe in all thinges and of our Communion as who haue both the trueth and the Church of Christ euen the same that our Auncetors to wit the Apostles and their Successors after them had in their seuerall times Which also was the totall summe of M.D. Allens Articles first and after them both of my Motiues Demaundes Neuerthelesse I haue thought good for the more manifest clering of all to haue this chapter aparte and folowing the order of my Demaundes one by one which if Fulke had done he had saued me some labour to sifte all in substance and effect that he hath said to D. Allens Articles in the former of his two bookes answering withall these few Scriptures and Doctors of his which in the two last Chapters I pretermitted and reserued to this place By this the Reader shall sée euidently the force of ech one Demaund how much more of all to heare the Protestantes quite downe considering that all is nothing which this felow in both his bookes could either answere vnto them or obiecte against them Specially if he will first reade ouer euery Demaund as it lyeth in my booke and then that which here is correspondent vnto it 1. Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures FIrst therefore by reason of their triuiall position of Onely Scripture in all questions for the which notwithstāding they haue neither Scripture nor Doctor as I haue sufficiently declared cap. 8 pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. and because the question of the Church is of all other the principall as one which being agréed vpon and so the House of saluation found all brable is at an end also by Fulkes owne confession here cap. j. Whether it can not erre as we say or may erre as they say Herevpon in my very first Demaunde on the one side I aske them as S. Augustine did the Donatistes some euident Scripture for their Church that is to say for Luthers piece or for Caluines piece of Luthers piece on the other side I point them to very many most euident Scriptures for our Church in S. Augustines two books against the Donatistes de Collatione Carthaginensi and de vnitate Ecclesiae that is to say for the Church beginning at Hierusalem Act. 1. like the litle musterdseede Mat. 13. and growing and spreading thence ouer all Nations ouer S. Augustine and his felowes in the Christian Nations of their time and ouer vs and our felowes in the Christian Nations of our time and so forth to the end of the world Now Fulke wheresoeuer he maketh mention of the saide Carthage Conference c. What doth he doth he reply and shew that the same most euident Scriptures make for his Church or that they make not for S. Augustines Church and our Church that is for the visible Church of all Christian Nations yea like a blind buzzard he there ouerthroweth quite his owne Church and plainely confirmeth ours as I haue noted cap. 9. pag. 176. to 183. in the question of Only Scripture vpon the places of S. Augustine which he there alleageth requiring and bringing Scriptures for the Church And as I offer cap. 7. pag. 106. to shew more copiously if he dare ioyne with me vpon this Demaund and stand to S. Augustines Disputation at Carthage c. and to the euident Scriptures there recited as cōcerning this questiō of the Church And as towching certaine darke and obscure Scriptures such as S. Augustine would haue to be set aside in this question the Donatistes in déede alleaged some suche for their Church that is for Donates piece cut of from the Church of all Nations But for Luther or Caluines piece Fulke hath alleaged neither so much as any such Howbeit against our Church he hath aleaged some such But I haue cap. 8. pag. 124. to 133. most cléerely shewed that neither they make any whit at all against our Church as neither certaine expositions of some Fathers cap. 9 pag. 155 and that they make vnauoideably against the Protestantes Being readie to shew the like in those more euident Scriptures also which the Donatistes alleaged against our Church if Fulke list to repeate them and in any other likewise that he can alleage 2. Building of the Church amid persecution In the 2. Demaund I reporte S. Chrysostomes argument which is not his onely yea it is the Scriptures against the Iewes and Paynimes to proue that Christ is God because no Persecution of theirs or any others could or can suppresse Christes Church though in the first beginning of it it were so poore and smal and they so mightie and cruell against it but that it hath and shall continually stand in the sight of the world mauger all the Gates of Hell Now Fulke to this argument hath answered nothing nor to the Doctors and Scriptures that make it The Iewes and Paynimes are not yet so much beholding vnto him Marie an obiectiō against it I graunt may be made of the texte of the Apocalypse here cap. 8. pag. 124. as you alleage it and vnderstand it to wit that the Persecution of Antichrist shall driue the Church into the Wildernes that is you say into a secrete place out of the open sight of the world Fulk a falsarie there to remaine for a long season But I haue there declared manifestly by the text it selfe that both in your alleaging you play the falsarie putting a long season for a very short season and in your vnderstanding a deprauer of Scripture to your owne damnation expounding that which is ment of fleeing in heart to God in time of worldly desolation to be meant of becomming corporally inuisible 3. Going out Motiue 18. Thirdly I demaunde of them to shew when we went out of the foresaid Church of al Christian Nations séeing they denie vs to be still within it As we say and the world seeth and Fulke him selfe confesseth here cap. 7. pag. 103. that they are departed from our Church and goeth about to yéelde a cause for their so doing Whereas by S. Augustine whom him selfe alleageth here cap. 9. pag. 177. as it were agaynst our separating of our selues from them which is one of his grosse contradictions and this also no better Ar. 66. that we Catholikes are departed from the Gretians it is impossible for any to haue a iust cause to Separate them selues from the said Church In so much that no companie can be named from the very beginning of the same Church which so did and obstinately stoode in it as they do but it was Schismaticall Yea and against his imagined Church in the wildernes here cap. 8. pag. 124. we are expresly warned If they saye vnto you Ecce in deserto est Beholde Christ is in the wildernes nolite exire do not goe out Matth.
within one hundred yeares after the Apostles doth witnesse that it was vsed before his time and that it came to his time by Tradition of the Apostles The same doth S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and many mo witnesse by your owne cōfession here cap. 3. pag. 2.3.4 Are not these authenticall writers nor credible authors nowe with you who here cap. 2. pag. 11. to 22. were with you the most approued writers and the Doctors of Gods Churche I thinke Gods Church may beléeue her Doctors better then you her rebels Howbeit also any reasonable man will thinke it enough for vs to bring it vp to Tertullians time and put you to proue that then it began if you will not graunt that it came from the Apostles Ar. 43. Of another particular you say Transubstantiation no small Article of your Religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God of our Lorde you would saye 1215. But you will not I trow inferre therevpon that then it beganne For by the same reason an Arrian maye say that Homousion no small Article of our Religion beganne in the first Nicene Councell because it was not decréed vntill then Both wordes were then decréed but the things meant by them came euen from the Apostles Lanfrācus lib. contra Bereng and was decréed also the one of them 200. yeres afore that time to witte when the Heresie of Berengarius superesse in Altari post consecrationem substantiam panis vini the substance of the bread and wine to remayne after Consecration and not only agaynst the Reall presence was condemned in diuers Councels and he glad to recant it as by the writers of the same time we know The other Argument is directly agaynst you as this was directly for vs. The 2. Arg. Your first Authors can be named after the beginning of the Church rising with their new opinions Ergo their opinions were Heresies and they were Heretikes and you be Heretikes namely maynteining the same obstinatly Here agayne you denie both the consequence and the antecedent but how friuolously I haue at large reported cap. 7. pag. 80. where you put in your poore and colde exception of Onely Scripture hauing nothing els to stay agaynst the Auncient Fathers who both made that consequence and also noted your beginners but that they muste proue all by Scripture or els neither doth their argument holde neither was Aerius c. your first Author As also in another place you say to D. Allen therevpon Your rule is false For you leaue out the chiefest condition Pur. 413. which js that the opinion it selfe be contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles or els it is no Heresie though it maye be truely fathered vpon any man sooner or later Full wisely D. Allens rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man that was long after the trueth was firste preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith and contentiously maynteined it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles And you can by no exception by no reason disproue it Now your rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man long after the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith c and contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie c. Are not you then a proper rule giuer Any opinion that is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles No doubt but D. Allen should do wisely to correct his rule which is not his but the Fathers rule by suche learned aduise 5. Contradicted Motiue 20. Article 11. Another rule of D. Allens is according to my next Demaūd (a) Pur. 412. Whosoeuer was wondred at and withstand and in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church as Aerius by S. Epiphanius S. Augustine c. and now Luther and Caluine by the Romanes c. he was according to the matter an Heretike or a Schismatike if he were obstinate I aske them therefore who so withstoode vs at any time or what heresie was not so withstood according to Gods promise to his Church Vpon thy walles Esa 62. O Hierusalem I haue set watchmen all day and al night euen for euer non tacebunt they shal not be scilent Whervpon S. Augustine saith confidently by the warrant also of the Parable Aug. ep 119 cap. 19. Mat. 13. Ecclesia dei inter multā paleam c. The Church of God beset with much chaffe and with much cockle although she tolerate many things not béeing able to redresse them yet such things as be agaynst faith or good life she neither alloweth nor is scilent nor practiseth And Fulke him selfe saith as much The Church of Christ in suche places as she is ioyne herevnto ca. 2. Ar. 92. where he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres suffereth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Now against this and so against him selfe to what hath he to say One while he bringeth causes why and how our Religion entred into the true Church with scilence 1 For because it came not in sodenly Ar. 43.39.35 Pur. 256. but entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors where he addeth especially being earnestly occupied against great Heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chiefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Pur. 419. Sabellians and such like monsters 2 Another meane or cause was this that in those auncient times if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse with such correction as they thought was sufficient And this was a great corruption Where he addeth So they tooke of them c. eight or nyne things of ours he there nameth his words are here cap. 3. pag. 9. Amongst the which prayer for the dead is one 3. the causes and maner of the entring wherof he rendreth in like sort more at large cap. eodem pag. 14. to 20. as because it had a pretence of Charitie Ar. 39. Pur. 386.78 it deceiued simple men the sooner And the ignorant peoples error first winked at because it had a shew of pietie was allowed at length of Augustine and others who folowed the common errors of their time To omit that D. Allen foresaw and preuented these goodly causes Pur. 384. c. I say it is a fond part to tel why and how a thing was done which thing was neuer done For so the Scripture before alleaged promiseth and S. Augustine affirmeth that there should not be nor was any such silence in the true Pastors In so much that you can not name any confessed
are compelled to renounce the later which is the more proper and playnly peremptorie and to shrewde them selues in the former most vainly saying that the Church is called Catholike non ex totius orbis communione Epist 48. sed ex obseruatione omnium Praeceptorum Diuinorum atque omnium Sacramentorum Not of the whole worlds communion but for the keping of all Gods commaundements and of all the Sacraments By all this wrankling you winne nothing but this that you declare thereby the name to be ours and not yours as also by this that you defend your felowes for saying Vniuersal in stéede of Catholike and Congregation in stéede of Church Ar. 67. because say you they are so in English and are not els commonly vnderstanded You should haue said rather that they are so in Latine and then by your wise conceite one should tel the people of the gathering ouer all and they would vnderstand that better then the Catholike Church because these be Gréeke words Euen as if you would not name Baptisme vnto them but rather Ablution or washing Apostasie the cause of chaunging these vvords nor Heretike but a chuser nor Schismatike but a Cutter No my masters it was not for more perspicuitie it was not that you chaunged those knowen and worne names it was because they were preoccupated by vs afore you were borne and therefore were as a great blocke in your way to be remoued afore you could enter into the Christian hartes that you were to seduce for which cause your Apostasie hath gone about to chaūge trāslate more Greke names also thē those as you know Priest Bishop c. though they were vnderstanded well enough before Motiue 2. Article 19. 7. Heretikes The second rule is of the name Heretikes being the contrarie to the name Catholikes and therefore we néede now stand lesse about it That such as are of Christian men commonly called and knowen by the name of Heretikes are alwayes Heretikes in very déede To this Fulke agéeth not but correcteth it saying Ar. 65. Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deed and therefore say I Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius were Heretikes in déede because you confesse here cap. 2. that they were true Christians who called and counted them so But this not being for your vauntage you inferre otherwise And therefore the Papists being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians without doubt are Heretikes in dede Euen as vndoubtedly as you be true Christians that so call them That briefly is our answere to your rule though you answere it your selfe also where you say The Diuell stirred vp Tyrants Heretikes Popes Saracenes and Turkes Ar. 78. to destroy the Church who that counteth Popes to be Heretikes would so diuide What is now your answere to our rule Forsoth The true Christians were of the Arrian people who were people cōmonly called Christians called and taken for Heretikes What is that to the purpose but were they commonly called Heretikes euen so much as of the Arrians Euen as much as we now be cōmonly called Heretikes of you For you know pardie your selues that if you should in your talke and writing say Heretikes simpliciter as we do you could not be vnderstanded to speake of vs so as we be with all perspicuitie vnderstanded to speake of you Yea but although we be called Heretikes you say here cap. 7. pa. 80. yet in that our faith agreeth with the word of God we proue our selues in dede to be no Heretikes Witnesse here cap. 8. where al your deprauatiōs of Gods word are reuealed to your cōfusion 8. Protestantes Motiue 3. Article 18. The third rule is vpon the name Protestantes and such like That they haue always bene Heretikes who haue had such new names in respect of their seuerall faith and doctrine and always Schismatikes who haue had the like in respect of their seuerall cōmunion namely if they were obstinate therin To this Fulke answereth We desire most of all to be called Christians Ar. 65.66 coūting it a most honorable name although in reproch we be called of you Caluinists and Lutherans As the true Christians of old were of the Arrians called in reproch Homousians and Athanasians I told you in my Demaunds that to be like rather to this that Luther inuented to call vs Papists For we were you know before Luther began as they were before the Arrians began And neither they nor we then without a name What other thē was our name but the name of Christians In vnitie of the name were al together at that time And when afterward Arius and Luther began their partes what offended the old Christians I pray you to léese their old name And kéeping their old name what néede had the Arians to call them Homousians and Athanasians or Luther to call them Papistes was it of necessitie or of reproch And therefore on the other side the name Christians being preoccupated how could men talke of Arrius his faction or of Luthers factiō without some new names as Ariās Lutherās Therefore it was not of reproch but of necessitie in so much that your owne side also in theire talke in theire Edictes and in theire bookes specially one against another are constrained to vse those or other Names But we are not constrained nor do not call our selues Papistes but we call our selues still as before Christians or for more distinction perspicuitie Pacia Ep. 1. 2. ad Sy. Habetur in Bibliotheca edita Paris 1575 when we deale with you Catholike christiās For as S. Pacianus saith passing finely in his Epistle De Catholico Nomine to Sympronianus a Nouatian though he thē tooke him to be a Montanist Christianus mihi nomē est Catholicus vero cognomē Christian is my name but Catholike is my surname And therefore you may lōg desire the name of Christians before you get it The great count that you make of it is to our glory whose name it is But this is notable that howsoeuer you be ashamed of those names you confesse two other names graunting withall that they which choose to themselues such new names Ar. 87. are none of the Catholike Church to wit Gospellers and Protestants Specially where you say Ar. 65. As for the name of Protestantes came first of them that made protestation against the decree of Spires in Germanie Anno 1529. twelue yeres after Luther began and from that time hath bene attributed to professers of the Gospell Of whom soeuer it first came it is within the compasse of our rule And therfore you had good cause to adde and say Which name they do not so much delight in as you do in the name of Papists We delight euen so much in the name of Papists as in the inuention of your Patriarke Luther Howbeit we say not that a Catholike may to the Heretikes deny him selfe to be a Papist no otherwise
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
maketh mention also of a Eus li. 7. ca. 19. the Hymnes of Nepos Theodoretus and Zosomenus of e Theo. lib. 4. ca. 24. Zoso l. 3. ca. 15. the Hymnes of S. Esrem in the feastes of Martyrs and S. Augustine very often of f Aug. retr li. 1. ca. 21. Confes l. 9. ca. 6.7.12 the Hymnes of S. Ambrose The Councell of Laod. doth no more but forbid priuatos vulgares Psalmos priuate and vulgar Psalmes made by simple men to be said in the Church as the g Con. Mil. ca. 12. Con. Cart. 3. ca. 23. Mileuitane Councell also commaundeth that no other prayers or collectes or Masses or prefaces or commendations or handlayings be said in the Church nisi quae a prudentioribus tractatae But such as haue bene examined by some more skilfull or allowed in the Synode least it chaunce something to be made against the faith or by ignoraunce or by negligence Likewise touching lessons the Councel of Laod doth no more but forbyd the Apocryphall Scriptures libros non Canonicos to be read sed solos Canonicos veteris noui Testimenti but the onely Canonicall bookes of the olde and new Testament Con. Cart. 3. ca. 47. Ar. 20. as also the .3 Councell of Carthage decreeth that beside the Canonicall Scriptures nothing be read in the Church vnder name of the diuine Scriptures for which cause both Councelles doth there declare which bookes be Canonicall and the Carthage Councell addeth also that the Martyrs Passions may be read when their anniuersarie dayes be celebrated These examples declare manifestly that you detest in our seruice euen those things which were in the seruice of the Primitiue Churche and all without cause and that it is an horrible blasphemie where you say If you demaund whence your Ceremonies VVhy then do you kepe them novv festiuall dayes feastes and varieties of Seruice did proceede I aunswere plainly out of the bottomlesse pit of Hell For touching dayes also which may be the last example of Fasting and Feasting you confesse cap. 3. pag. 13. and cap. 6. pag. 43. that Aerius and Iouinianus were condemned in the Primitiue Church for Heretikes because they denyed the dayes and merites of Fasting and the Scriptures that you obiect against the Fathers vs for it I haue aunswered cap. 8. pag. 140. to .143 Ar. 20. Likewise you confesse that Festiuall dayes were vsed in the Primitiue Church adding to shewe of what Church you be that they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion wel But they were not kept in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes for that is great Idolatrie as also to build Churches in the honor of Saintes but only for the memory of the martyres and other Saintes that their good life might be followed Whether for that onely let S. Augustine be witnesse where he saith The Christian people doth celebrate together the martyres memories with religious solemnitie Aug. cōtra Faust l. 20. ca. 21. Et ad exitandam imitationē et vt meritis eorum consocietur atque orationibus adiuuetur Both to stirre vp imitatiō and to be ioyned in felowship to their merites and holpen with their prayers Was not this to kéepe their memories in their honor also As againe it is manifest not onely by certayne places alleaged before but also in the very words that you alleage de ver Relig. cap. 55. Ar. 20.54 The saints must be honored for imitation not adored for religion Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honour the blessed Angels with charitie not with seruice Doth he not here expresly auouch their honoring As for your note that Seruitus is the same that Dulia is contrary to the Papists which will worship them with seruice called Dulia or Seruitus it is but your vnacquayntance in S. Augustines writings Reade De Ciuit. Dei li. 10. ca. 1. Seruitus Latria Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque sanctarum Scripturarum positum est interpretati sunt Seruitutē For whersoeuer in the holy Scriptures in Gréeke is put Latria our Latines haue translated it Seruitus And so you may sée that he vseth Seruitus for Latria not for Dulia as also he vseth Religio for thresceia béeing synonymum to Latreia But saith he speaking of cultus Deitati debitus the worship due to the Godhead Propter quem vno verbo significandū quoniam satis mihi idoneum non occurrit Latinum Greco c. Because to signifie it in one word I finde no Latin word apt ynough neither Religio nor Seruitus although in that booke De vera Relig. he so vsed them being yet but a Lay man I do where it is necessarie vtter my mind by the Greeke word Latria Lo I haue alleaged here no more but as an answere And yet I haue made it manifest that notwithstanding all his obiections yea also by his owne confession the Seruice of the Primitiue Church was ours and not the Protestants defending it also easily against his vaine cauils Ar. 38.40.49 Neither shal he euer be able to shew that any Church Latin or Gréeke Brytish or other had authenticall seruice but it was ours as D. Allen told him before Now as for the Language in which the Seruice is Seruice in Latine that maketh no difference in the Seruice it selfe For praying for the dead is all one whether it be in Latine or in English Yet because he holdeth that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues let vs sée what be his groundes thereof Ar. 49.40 We can easily shew it out of the Scripture so he saith but no word that he alleageth any where But bylike he meaneth the place to the Corinthians by which his fellowes do commonly reiect the Latin Seruice as if it were that miraculous gifte which the Apostle there calleth 1. Cor. 14. Loqui linguis to speake with tongues Which also he doth not reiect but moderate for the varietie of certayne much like to * Pur. 7. some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues Now if any learned man séeing it is not the seruice that S. Paule there speaketh of thinke yet that one may argue thence at the least a simili Let him consider first that so the maner of the simple Catholikes who praye to them selues priuately in the Latine tongue which they vnderstande not is not condemned but iustified For He that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men but yet to God And he that speaketh in a tongue doth also edifie him selfe in spirite that is in affect For if I pray in a tongue my spirite or affection prayeth though my vnderstanding be without fruite And therefore If thou blesse or giue thankes in spirite thou doest it well But if there be no Interpreter let him be silent in the Churche and speake to him selfe and to God The difference is onely this that those Corinthians receiued immediately of the holy Ghost such prayers
you gather that the body of Christ which he saith was the Sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall body because he saith the Martyrs and it were all one He saith not so not that they are all one or the same but that they are of the mysticall body of Christ which whole mystical body is offered there to God in the offering of his naturall body for there are speciall memories of euery sort of the Saintes in heauen of the Soules in Purgatory of the Catholiks in earth The bread wine also in which his said naturall body and bloud are consecrated are such things a Au tract 26. in Ioan. Quae in vnum rediguntur ex multis as of many cornes and grapes are brought into one loafe and cup Water also b Cyp. epi. 63. to signifie vs againe béeing mingled with the wine Herevpon he saith in the same c Aug. ciu li. 10. c. 6.20 worke that in the Sacrament of the Altar it is shewed to the Church that in the oblation which she doth offer her selfe is offered And that aswell she by him as he by her is vsually offered And therefore it can not be thought that this naturall body there offered is offered to the Martyrs or to the Church as the Paganes and Manichées did charge the Christian Catholikes vpon their offering of that naturall body ouer the shrines of Martyrs You might therefore haue gathered as well that the Body which he offered vpon the Crosse was not his naturall body but his mysticall body the Church because in offering it there for his Church he offered his Church to God with it Reade De Ciu. li. 10. ca. 6. and there you shall sée that he sheweth how the workes of mercie are a sacrifice item a person consecrated to God Item our body Item our soule Item tota ipsa redempta Ciuitas hoc est congregatio societasque sanctorum the whole redeemed Citie it selfe that is the congregation and societie of the holy which he calleth vniuersale sacrificium An vniuersall Sacrifice And that after all these metaphorical Sacrifices he distinguisheth from them all not onely the Sacrifice of the Crosse but also the Sacrifice of the Altar which you confounde with that vniuersall Sacrifice not considering that he so often calleth it the one and the singuler Sacrifice of the Christians Besides these Pur. 361.293 you haue two places out of Tertullian and Ireneus The former sheweth you say what was the chiefest Sacrifice that they did offer to wit Prayer The other likewise sheweth that by the name of the Sacrifice of the Church he meaneth not the Sacrifice of the Masse which they call propitiatorie for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead but the Sacrifice of thankesgeuing and prayers Tertul. in Apol. Tertullian telleth there the Gentiles in defence of the Christians first what thinges they prayed for in the Canon of the Masse to wit for their Romane Empire among other thinges the place goeth here before cap. 9. pag. 197. Then why not to their Goddes Haec ab alio orare nō possum quā c. These thinges I cannot praye for of any other but of whom I knowe that I shall obteyne them quoniam et ipse est qui solus praestat c. For both he it is who onely doth geue them and I am he to whom is due to obtayne being his seruant which worship him onely Then also why not with their blood Sacrifices of fat calues c. qui ei offero opimam et maiorem hostiam quam ipse mandauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam which offer to him a fat and greater host that which he himselfe commaunded to wit prayer pronounced out of a chast body out of an innocent soule out of an holy spirite Where in the name of that Prayer he comprehendeth all that is saide and done in the Masse of the faithfull which to this day also the Priest therefore beginneth saying vnto vs after the Gospell Dominus vobiscum Oremus Let vs pray and immediatly goeth to the bread and wine Hier. epist ad Euagriū c. Because this pure Sacrifice is made celebrated with Prayer ad Presbyterorum preces Christi corpus sanguisue conficitur Christes body and bloud is made by the Priestes prayers saith S. Hierome and because euen the old house of those Leuiticall bloud Sacrifices also was called Mat. 21. Isa 56. Domus orationis The house of prayer And as Tertullian setteth out agaynst the impure Paganes the puritie of the Church in her Sacrifice so doth S. Irenée set out the same against the Iewes and Heretikes Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. Mala. 1. to shewe that the pure Sacrifice in Malachie is offered by her alone quoniam cum simplicitate Ecclesia offert Because the Church offreth with simplicitie of faith hope and charitie whereas the Iewes hands are now full of bloud and all the Synagogues of those olde Heretikes helde the bread and wine to be of an yll creation For this cause he telleth them that the conscience of him that doth offer beeing pure doth sanctifie the Sacrifice and causeth God to accept it as comming from a friend And that the Sacrifices do not sanctifie a man Non enim indiget Sacrificio Deus for God doth not neede a Sacrifice so as néede should make him glad of it as it maketh a begger glad whether the giuer be a friend or a foe And do not we say the same Can any Heretike pleade as vpon our verdite that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread or wine yea or also the body it selfe and bloud of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall Communion no lesse then we doe in the Masse And yet the Sacrifice of it selfe is suche as pleaseth God and sanctifieth the offerer but for his owne indisposition Like as Baptisme of it selfe would cleanse the conscience Heb. 9.10 though oftentimes it doth not for fault in the receiuers of it For it is not the worthines of men but the worthines of Christ whereof the owne and proper vertue of his Sacramentes and of his Sacrifice both of the Altar and of the Crosse dependeth Motiue 35. 25. Monkes My 25. Demaund noteth that these Heretikes haue cutte off from the Church her best and perfectest member to wit Monkes and Nunnes who were so common in the Primitiue Churche that to bring all to the fashion of the Primitiue Church as they pretende they shoulde haue made all to be Monkes rather then none to be Monkes And Fulke doth nothing here but helpe our side in that he * Ar. 29.85 Pur. 87.297.250 Hic cap. 9. often reiecteth Monkes Heremites Anachorites Canons Fryers Nunnes graunting them no place in the Churche of Christe partely by an argument ab authoritate Ephes 4. negatiuè whiche I aunswered here in the 24. Demaunde treating of Bishoppes Priestes and
many thousand men haue in that new world receiued the faith of Christ as may be in this our old world So is the comparison at this present time But how much greater yet is the oddes if we looke backe to the times past and consider that in the Nations where now the Sectes are a few yeares agoe all were Catholikes they occupied all the Churches so many hundred yeares together as from the first conuersion of ech Nation Yea generally in all other Christian Nations also wheresoeuer whensoeuer euen from the Apostles time all were of our communion because all at ech time were of the Popes communion who for the time was and al the Popes from the first to the last of one communion no one of them separating himselfe from his predecessors communion as of purpose I shewed in the 28. Demaund This is the Communion of Saintes in déede not these scattered Sectes much lesse any one of them by it self alone as our English Protestantes c. Who also as I shewed in the 40. Dem. were neuer afore now therefore accordingly they professe to haue no communion with the Christians that liued before vs be now in Heauen in Purgatorie whereas with them also we haue communion of mutuall prayer helpe euen in the same manner as S. Augustine had whose communion is confessed to be the communion of all Saintes as this one place of his shall testifie for all where he sheweth that to be buried in the Martyrs Churche doth profite the deade in this that their friendes aliue remembring the place eisdem Sanctis illos Au. de cura pro mort ca. 4. vlt. tanquā patronis susceptos apud dominū adiuuandos orando cōmendent doe pray and commend them to the same Sainctes as clients to their patrones to be holpen with our Lord. This is the most glorious infinite Christian companie that our Countrey hath forsaken to follow a fewe miserable blind guides into the pitte of euerlasting ruine 48. By their fruites Motiue 39. In the next Demaund is noted according to S. Augustines writing against the Manichées De moribus Ecclesiae Catholicae the fruites of the Catholike Religion that Christ worketh in this foresaid communion both now euer in the good life euen of the common sorte of our seculare people and much more in the perfection of our Religious And contrariwise the waste of all perfection and of all vertue which the Protestantes Doctrine hath brought wheresoeuer it raigneth by setting men at libertie to doe what they liste with vaine securitie of Onely faith not the Catholike faith which onely is faith but of a new inuented faith or persuasion for euery one that he is predestinate That if euer any False prophetes mighte be knowen by their fruites Mat. 7. these may I néede not repete the rest that I say in this Demaūd to this effect Pur. 1. to 31 241.459 Ar. 94. whereof D. Allen also hath in his Preface said sufficiently Fulke in comparing with vs to the contrarie bragging at his felowes holines and rayling at some of our euill liues thinketh bylike that he can with wordes turne midday and midnight one into the other He nameth London as it is now and biddeth D. Allen if thou canst for thy guts name any citie in the world that is comparable vnto it Who would require vs to answere such beastly impudencie With like audacitie he rayleth at Rome as if it were hell it selfe I maruaile then how it commeth to passe that nothing more confirmeth our Countrymen in the Catholike faith nor alienateth them from the Protestāts then to goe and see Rome Whereof we haue innumerable experiences 2. Reg. 10. At one word we find there as the Quéene of Saba did find with Salamon whatsoeuer we heare by reading in S. Hierome c. Also by reuelation of our brethren whē we come to the place and sée with our eyes we are forced to say that halfe was not told vs. I hope the world shall know Rome to your confusion ere it be long by a booke that may with the grace of God be set forth to reporte the trueth As for London no true and godly English heart can but feare vnto it euen as to Sodome and Gomorre We néede to name vnto you no other citie but London it selfe when it was Catholike and let the Auncients be iudges betwene vs both They can tell you that if any good orders be there at this present they are lightly but the relikes of the Catholike time as it were feathers stickt downe by such as stole the géese So can they tell you of the whole realme and the like of all other realmes Pur. 238.236 You charge D. Allen that he appealeth to the yonger sort who haue not knowen c. But you charge him falsly He telleth good yong men that they must looke backe a great way to learne their duties of the blessed times past Which thāks be to God great numbers haue done and dayle doe and thereby returne and submit them selues to their mother the Catholike Church which if the elder sorte who know these thinges better then the yonger do not in like maner it is for no other cause but that they be more entangled with the world then the yonger are otherwise if the world were not on your side 2. Cor. 5. it is well knowen to them specially in whom God hath put the word of reconciliation that your ministers might in all places almost reade and preach to the bare walles 49 All enimies Moti 44. Article 4. The 49. Demaund noteth that it is our Church against which all enimies of Christ haue fought and which hath preuailed against them all As it is euident by this that our Church holdeth still all those truethes which Arrius Aerius or any other of hell gates did euer impugne and because it ioyneth friendship with no enimie but defieth them all alike whereas the Protestantes ioyne in opinion with many olde Heretikes and in friendship with all the miscreantes of this time because their endeuour is not against falshood but onely to ouerthrow our Church Against this Fulke hath nothing but rather with it expresly where he saith Ar. 11.15 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions and by the ayde of God obteined the victorie The true Church of Christ hath always stood stedfast when all Heretikes haue bene and shall be confounded 50 Sure to continue Motiue 47 After this I tell the Protestants that they were best to leaue their vaine kicking with Saul against the pricke Act. 9. because they can not preuayle as neither their prowders could The Fathers euen so tolde those prowder and mightier Heretikes in their time that the Church I say and namely the Church of Rome is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not ouercome And we sée that time hath iustified their saying And so will it iustifie our saying
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
allow any dispensation in it be it otherwise neuer so iust As for any Law of Nature you can alleage none against the Churches dispensations no otherwise then against Gods owne dispensations in the time of the old Testament yea if you remember your selfe well they were allowed then some of them at the least by law also and not only by dispensation sometimes which you meane now to be against the Law of Nature Béeing so many wayes ignoraunt in Gods Lawe it is lesse meruaile that you be ignoraunt in the Churches Lawe and agayne in the Churches Diuinitie so that in one place you make it a thing certayne Pur. 35. that the Pope geueth his pardons by the Sacrament of penance As though the Pope beyng at Rome myght be minister of a Sacrament to one in England You might as well thinke that he doth excommunicate by the Sacrament of penance So great a Doctor doth not know that the power of binding and loosing is exercised many other wayes besides that Sacrament Yea not onely in our diuinitie but also in your owne you be so ignoraunt Pur. 13. that you wonder that a Catholike should say that God sometime punisheth sinne with sinne which is a position common to be séen in all Catholike Doctors Thom. 1.2 q. 87. ar 2. complaine that when you say but halfe so much we charge you to make God the Author of sinne Why is not that a common position and long discourses vpō it in your masters bookes that God is the author of sinne Cal. Insti li ca. 14. num 17.18 Melanct. in Epist ad Rom. If you be ashamed thereof and therefore doe say not as an euill author but as a righteous iudge I doe not reprehend you But if you say it of ignoraunce in your owne Scholes learning you must know that your Masters hold it of all sinnes alike as well of that sinne which goeth first in any man as of that sinne which commeth after in him and is sometime the punishment of the former sinne And therefore they holde it of God otherwise then as of a righteous iudge Ergo by your owne diuision as of an euill author For the difference betwéene them and vs is this They denie our Fréewill and make God to worke all sinne in vs in the same sort as he worketh all good in vs to wit per se willing appointing and predestinating vs to sinne euen no lesse then he which leadeth a blind man to fall But we say no more but that when a man hath sinned against him mortally God taketh away his inward grace and sometime also his outward assistance more or lesse according to his most iust will So as if a blinde mans guide should for his desert as because he wil néedes fall when he might stand forsake him either quite or for a time and he afterwardes fall the cause of that fall per se he onely is himselfe as of the former his guide onely per accidens though of the former neither per accidens Euen so doth God who is both the light of our eyes by his grace infused and also our guide by his infinite helpes externall Howbeit he dealeth not with vs all and alwayes according to his iustice but of his infinite mercie commonly he will not let vs fall when we will néedes fall and when we be fallen he will not let vs fall farther yea he raiseth vs often againe when we would lie still yea also when we resist him and fight against him rebelliously a notable example in S. Paules conuersion Act. 9. Iac. 1. that most worthily S. Iames is so vehement to hold and affirme that all good is of him but no euill at all not so much as tentation to euill Moreouer your great skill in Histories Ecclesiasticall appeareth by that you say Supra ca. 2. ca. 10. Dem. 11.3 Ar. 15.16 the Britons to haue kept their Easter so as the Asians did and the Latines to be departed from the Grecians in this present Schisme Which both I noted before Again because you say as it seemeth that Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour after Valens the Arrian Againe speaking of the Estern Churches of Asia at this presente that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at the Emperours charges Ar. 6. for the encrease of Christian faith among them What Emperour and what faith I pray you but Catholike or Popish Pur. 373. Againe that the Fathers alleaging Succession of Bishops against Heretikes specially named the Church of Rome it was because those Heretikes for the most parte had beene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcian Nouatus Those Heretikes that D. Allen speaketh of were not only the Valentinians and Nouatians but also the Donatistes the Arrians yea and all Heretikes in generall Now had the most part of these béen sometimes of the Church of Rome Yea Nouatus him selfe Supra p. 16 was he not a Priest of the Church of Carthage vnder S. Cyprian Who can reade S. Cyprian and be ignorant thereof specially now a dayes after that so many haue noted the error of some Gréeke Historians who in olde time and being farre of could not distinguishe Nouatus of Carthage from Nouatianus of Rome And also of Valentinus and Marcion where haue you that they were of Rome vnlesse all that goe to Rome be of Rome For so wée reade in Ireneus Iren. l. 3. ca. 4. li. 1. ca. 29. Philast in Catal. the time noted when Valentinus came to Rome for by Philastrius he was of Cypres and that Marcion was of Pontus being therefore called Ponticus You might in another sense say that they all other Heretikes were sometimes of the Church of Rome because all lightly were first Catholikes and al Catholikes were as all ought to be of that Churches communion And that to haue bene the cause why the Fathers named that Church specially But so you would not say because you woulde not condemne your selfe for a Schismatike Last of all where you must shew vs wherein the Communion of Saintes consisteth you shew your self againe a great clearke Pur. 199.200 The Scriptures make the Communion of Saints to be as is the Communion of our members in our body Yet you say One can not merite for another no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christ As though neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for himselfe because he had his worthinesse of God Againe graunting that some of the members be here on earth and some elsewhere yet denying that they may either by prayer also helpe one the other you so define the Communion that you allow it no place for the prayers also of the members aliue to be made for others aliue But only for the dispensation of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receyued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon